Latest / Stacked with Jennifer Laforge / Chris Chimm - Canadians Aren’t Spending Less. They’re Spending Smarter.

Transcript

Chris Chimm - Canadians Aren’t Spending Less. They’re Spending Smarter. · Stacked with Jennifer Laforge

• 0:00
  Jen LaForge: I feel like I always say it's an exciting episode, but the nerd in me is really excited about today because it's full with a lot of rich data.
• 0:08
  Jen LaForge: I am joined by Chris Chim.
• 0:10
  Jen LaForge: He is research director with Angus Reed.
• 0:12
  Jen LaForge: He knows how Canadians are feeling and have been feeling for quite some time.
• 0:17
  Jen LaForge: We're going to dive in there and we're going to talk about Canadian consumer sentiment and we're going to talk about value and loyalty with Chris.
• 0:24
  Jen LaForge: So thank you so much for coming here today.
• 0:26
  Jen LaForge: You're in the hotel.
• 0:26
  Chris Chhim: Thanks for inviting me.
• 0:29
  Jen LaForge: No problem.
• 0:30
  Jen LaForge: So how long have you been with Angus Reed and what brought you to that world of statistics and research and data?
• 0:37
  Chris Chhim: I just really love numbers, right?
• 0:39
  Chris Chhim: But deeper than that, I've been with Angus Reed for about two years now.
• 0:43
  Chris Chhim: Um, been in market research and public opinion for for a lot longer than that.
• 0:47
  Chris Chhim: Um and really ultimately, you know, I really like figuring out what makes Canadians do the things they do, right?
• 0:53
  Chris Chhim: So sort of it's this larger behavioral question, right?
• 0:56
  Chris Chhim: Why do they vote a certain way?
• 0:58
  Chris Chhim: Why do they buy a certain thing?
• 1:00
  Chris Chhim: Why do they feel a certain way?
• 1:02
  Chris Chhim: So it's really just really getting at um unraveling those sorts of things, really untangling what makes Canadian, well, just people in general tick.
• 1:11
  Jen LaForge: Right.
• 1:11
  Jen LaForge: So so you have a deep interest in that, but you've also now been helping uh so many Canadian organizations understand that picture as well.
• 1:23
  Jen LaForge: Uh the past six years, six, seven years have been a lot.
• 1:28
  Chris Chhim: To say the least, right?
• 1:29
  Chris Chhim: So Yeah.
• 1:30
  Jen LaForge: This is before we dive into all that a lot, just generally, what do you think has been the biggest shift in that time period that you've seen uh in your research?
• 1:40
  Chris Chhim: Yeah, sure.
• 1:40
  Chris Chhim: I mean, I would say that you know, it's easy to start with the pandemic as a starting point for sure.
• 1:45
  Chris Chhim: And I think that, you know, public sentiment in Canada was going a certain way before the pandemic, but that really marked this point in time where things started to accumulate, right?
• 1:56
  Chris Chhim: So we had the pandemic that I don't need to explain what that was.
• 1:59
  Chris Chhim: Everybody went through it, everybody has their own pandemic trauma and that sort of thing.
• 2:04
  Chris Chhim: It disrupted work, it disrupted supply chains, it disrupted a whole bunch of things, right?
• 2:09
  Chris Chhim: So our world was completely uh turned upside down.
• 2:12
  Chris Chhim: Then we had inflation, then we had um interest rates going up uh up and down, that sort of thing.
• 2:20
  Chris Chhim: And so it's the accumulation of all these factors.
• 2:23
  Chris Chhim: And then now we have trade friction with the US as well.
• 2:26
  Chris Chhim: So it's a whole bunch of things.
• 2:27
  Chris Chhim: Canadians are are feeling exhausted, right?
• 2:30
  Chris Chhim: I mean, I think I don't need to, you know, state the obvious here.
• 2:33
  Chris Chhim: I think we all feel it.
• 2:35
  Chris Chhim: Everyone listening out there feels that, you know, the collective pressure, the collective sort of stress of, you know, having to deal with all of these things makes people feel sort of exhausted, right?
• 2:47
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 2:47
  Jen LaForge: So the exhausting is a great word, very emotional.
• 2:51
  Jen LaForge: But if you were to pull it back in terms of actual behaviors, what do you think that this series of never-ending compounding pressures have done and changed to the Canadian consumers' behaviors?
• 3:08
  Chris Chhim: I would say that, you know, this this compounding of all these pressures have really trained Canadians to kind of adapt, to really, they're not really, they haven't had really a lot of time to exhale or have a break.
• 3:20
  Chris Chhim: So they've learned to adapt to this sort of uncertainty.
• 3:22
  Chris Chhim: And I think, you know, when we take a step back and we look at these sorts of larger indicators, everyone pays attention to uh the rate of inflation, the unemployment rate, this sort of thing.
• 3:32
  Chris Chhim: I think, you know, when these things go up and down, you know, we think that, oh, you know, the rate of inflation has declined.
• 3:38
  Chris Chhim: That doesn't necessarily erase the price increases that have already happened, right?
• 3:42
  Chris Chhim: Like prices are usually going up all the time.
• 3:45
  Chris Chhim: They're just going up at a at a slower rate, right?
• 3:48
  Chris Chhim: So that doesn't necessarily uh erase the fact that prices have you know gone up so much since the pandemic.
• 3:55
  Chris Chhim: You know, just because the job um, the unemployment rate has gone down or the rate the proportion of Canadians that are currently in work has gone up doesn't necessarily erase the uncertainty that Canadians are facing, right?
• 4:08
  Chris Chhim: Just because uh Canadians are you know in employment or they have a job doesn't mean that they're worried, they're not worried about losing their job or you know, having some kind of um crisis happen that they need to adjust their finances or something like that.
• 4:21
  Chris Chhim: So I think you know, these sorts of things mean that Canadians are still in that sort of like tense mode.
• 4:28
  Chris Chhim: Even though some of these larger macroeconomic indicators can come down, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're they're relaxed yet.
• 4:34
  Chris Chhim: I think they're still bracing and waiting for, oh, what's next?
• 4:38
  Chris Chhim: Right.
• 4:38
  Chris Chhim: We even see now that, you know, our neighbors to the south are threatening to increase tariffs uh 50% and that sort of thing.
• 4:46
  Chris Chhim: So it's a sort of like, okay, now we have to deal with this as well.
• 4:50
  Jen LaForge: Yes, I'm so glad you brought up our friends to the south.
• 4:52
  Jen LaForge: We work very closely with our Recton.com counterparts.
• 4:56
  Jen LaForge: Um, and one of the things that I'm always communicating is how different Canadian consumers are to US consumers.
• 5:04
  Jen LaForge: And we tend to be more conservative.
• 5:06
  Jen LaForge: We tend to react a little quicker, and it takes us longer to feel comfortable.
• 5:11
  Jen LaForge: Uh what does your research tell you about Canadians and how they're actually behaving through these micro and macro storms?
• 5:20
  Chris Chhim: Yeah, for sure.
• 5:21
  Chris Chhim: I mean, I think we are right about what you say generally about the difference between consumers in the US, consumers in Canada.
• 5:27
  Chris Chhim: Of course, you know, there's a certain regionality to that as well.
• 5:30
  Chris Chhim: You know, it's it's difficult to talk about Canadians in general as consumers.
• 5:34
  Chris Chhim: Quebec is different, you know, the the West is different, um, the Atlantic provinces are certainly different.
• 5:39
  Chris Chhim: And the same goes for the US as well, right, to a certain degree.
• 5:42
  Chris Chhim: Um, I would say that given, you know, all the ups and downs that have happened in the past two years, I would say that Canadian, you know, we've certainly have felt the pressures of the by Canadian movement, this sort of thing, um, this kind of surge of patriotism for sure.
• 5:56
  Chris Chhim: And Canadians want to support their local businesses.
• 6:00
  Chris Chhim: They want to support uh Canadian-owned businesses and that sort of thing.
• 6:03
  Chris Chhim: But at the same time, they're still dealing with some of that other stuff, right?
• 6:06
  Chris Chhim: They're still dealing with the affordability cost, the pressures of, you know, having to manage your household finances when everything is more expensive, when you have to constantly have in the back of your head there could be something, you know, I could use, I could lose my job.
• 6:22
  Chris Chhim: I the roof could need to be repaired, that sort of thing.
• 6:25
  Chris Chhim: So I think that we're seeing a lot of Canadians, you know, have that intent of I want to support local, I want to do this.
• 6:32
  Chris Chhim: But it's a trade-off, right?
• 6:33
  Chris Chhim: So it's this sort of introduced this economy of trade-off.
• 6:36
  Chris Chhim: So what exactly are brands or what exactly are companies asking their consumers to trade off and is it actually worth it?
• 6:43
  Chris Chhim: So, you know, it might be worth supporting Canadian.
• 6:46
  Chris Chhim: It might be worth buying those uh Canadian strawberries, right?
• 6:50
  Chris Chhim: And I think this also varies by category, right?
• 6:52
  Chris Chhim: You know, a small purchase, uh maybe a one-time thing, you know, you want to buy a gift for a friend, buying local, supporting a local artisan, you know, that's that's great.
• 7:03
  Chris Chhim: Um, but things that you buy on a regular basis or things that, you know, where there's a huge gap, I think this is where you start to get those those trade-offs, right?
• 7:12
  Chris Chhim: Yeah, well, I really do want to support local, but also, you know, I have all these other um obligations that I have to meet as well.
• 7:20
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, you you mentioned the strawberries.
• 7:21
  Jen LaForge: That was such a big deal.
• 7:23
  Jen LaForge: Um, you know, there was strawberries for $2 and then Canadian strawberries for $6 to $8.
• 7:29
  Jen LaForge: Those $2 strawberries were rotting.
• 7:32
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 7:33
  Jen LaForge: And it was a weird sense of pride for a lot of Canadians to have that.
• 7:37
  Jen LaForge: But it's easier to make that decision with a $6 to $8 purchase versus now there's a difference of a couple thousand dollars.
• 7:44
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 7:45
  Jen LaForge: So from a category perspective, how do those trade-offs look different when you're talking about a lower average spend versus a larger spend?
• 7:55
  Jen LaForge: Are there still trade-offs happening on both sides?
• 7:57
  Jen LaForge: And what are those trade-offs?
• 7:58
  Chris Chhim: Oh, there are definitely trade-offs all around, right?
• 8:01
  Chris Chhim: So, you know, as I was as I was saying earlier, you know, it's really you maybe that one-off spend, you know, you really want to, you know, impress, you know, a friend with a really nice gift.
• 8:11
  Chris Chhim: You might want to, you know, these kind of one-off things, I think people are more willing to make that purchase.
• 8:17
  Chris Chhim: It's really when those sort of differences accumulate over time.
• 8:20
  Chris Chhim: I mean to go back to the strawberry store.
• 8:22
  Chris Chhim: I was just actually talking with one of my friends about how kids eat a lot of strawberries or like berries nowadays.
• 8:28
  Chris Chhim: This is like a huge thing.
• 8:29
  Chris Chhim: Um, that they just go through like baskets and baskets of berries.
• 8:33
  Chris Chhim: So, you know, think about those, you know, $2 strawberries versus the $6, you know, Ontario or Quebec strawberries, right?
• 8:40
  Chris Chhim: If your kids are, you know, eating them, you know, all the time, you know, you might start to make different uh different decisions for sure.
• 8:46
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, I started growing my own 10 years ago.
• 8:48
  Jen LaForge: I'm saving hundreds a year.
• 8:50
  Jen LaForge: At least in this, in the in the summertime.
• 8:53
  Jen LaForge: Um, ever everyone talks about value.
• 8:56
  Jen LaForge: Um, and these trade-offs and these conditions kind of hint to this idea that maybe consumers are challenging brands when it comes to value and loyalty, and that loyalty could become pretty loose on a brand when there's a trade-off or a value that is putting pressure there.
• 9:19
  Jen LaForge: Have you seen loyalty weaken in any specific sector or segment or area of Canada and where value is driving that?
• 9:28
  Chris Chhim: Oh, definitely.
• 9:28
  Chris Chhim: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Chris Chhim: I mean, I think with all of these pressures accumulating, um, I wouldn't say that loyalty is dead per se, but it certainly needs to justify itself.
• 9:36
  Chris Chhim: And this is definitely a context where consumers are experimental.
• 9:40
  Chris Chhim: They're getting, you know, they're coming around to trying, at least trying different brands.
• 9:45
  Chris Chhim: Maybe switch is a is a strong word.
• 9:48
  Chris Chhim: Um, we definitely have data that's that say that over, you know, half of consumers in the past three months have switched brands, right?
• 9:55
  Chris Chhim: They've they've, you know, they've decided that they need to trade off in other areas of their lives.
• 10:00
  Chris Chhim: So maybe, you know, they use a different brand of toilet paper, or they, you know, maybe they don't go for the the Ontario strawberries and this sort of thing.
• 10:07
  Chris Chhim: Uh, but you know, that's kind of the doorway, right?
• 10:09
  Chris Chhim: So that kind of leads to the discovery.
• 10:12
  Chris Chhim: And then, you know, we have other data that says that, you know, I think it's something around like 40%, uh upwards of 40% of consumers actually find that the new brand that they've tried, you know, they don't really notice, you know, that much of a tangible difference and will stick with that.
• 10:26
  Chris Chhim: And you do have people saying that, you know, there is a brand now that, you know, they'll consider buying uh in the future.
• 10:32
  Chris Chhim: So I think that loyalty is not necessarily dead.
• 10:36
  Chris Chhim: I think loyalty just needs to be justified more and more uh on a on a on a purchase-by-purchase basis.
• 10:43
  Chris Chhim: I think it needs to be earned each time.
• 10:45
  Chris Chhim: I think um brands can't simply rely on kind of, I don't want to say blind loyalty.
• 10:51
  Chris Chhim: They can't rely on habits, I would say, because like I said, it's it's it's about trade-offs.
• 10:56
  Chris Chhim: So that the the these decisions going on uh in consumers' heads every single day.
• 11:01
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, I think uh that's most notable, noticeable on the um ketchup wars.
• 11:05
  Jen LaForge: So Canadian-made ketchup.
• 11:07
  Jen LaForge: Um, if there's not a documentary on that, I feel like there's going to be a documentary on ketchup.
• 11:12
  Jen LaForge: Um but I think uh with where we're going, I want to come back and talk to you in a year about switching brands.
• 11:19
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 11:19
  Jen LaForge: Because thinking about the grocery store, when I go there now, half of the products are different.
• 11:25
  Jen LaForge: And I think it's a little bit of the trade options that are opening up in Canada and partnering with different countries and the products that are coming in.
• 11:32
  Jen LaForge: How are Canadians, what's their sentiment on new products kind of coming into the market?
• 11:37
  Jen LaForge: Do we have a read on that yet?
• 11:39
  Chris Chhim: Uh we do we're starting to get some reads about how Canadians are responding to these new products.
• 11:43
  Chris Chhim: Um, I think, you know, one of your previous uh guests was talking about how one of the most stressful things that you can do in a new country is go grocery shopping.
• 11:50
  Chris Chhim: Yes, yes.
• 11:51
  Chris Chhim: And you know, it it's definitely that, right?
• 11:54
  Chris Chhim: Like they're Canadians are open to exploring, right?
• 11:57
  Chris Chhim: So they, you know, they do have brands that they like, right?
• 11:59
  Chris Chhim: But when you know your pocket book is under pressure, you might be open to trying that different brand of cereal, that different brand of mustard or whatever and that sort of thing.
• 12:08
  Chris Chhim: So Canadians are largely, you know, experimental, I would say, but they just haven't been given the opp the opportunity to be so, right?
• 12:15
  Chris Chhim: So now with these new products, um, we have you know partnerships with other countries, you know, coming in.
• 12:21
  Chris Chhim: I think that they're starting to discover different brands.
• 12:25
  Chris Chhim: Uh, and I think that could be potentially trouble.
• 12:28
  Chris Chhim: I don't want to say trouble.
• 12:29
  Chris Chhim: That could be challenging for established brands here in Canada for sure.
• 12:33
  Jen LaForge: Aaron Powell Yes.
• 12:33
  Jen LaForge: Okay, more pressure on established brands.
• 12:36
  Chris Chhim: More pressure on established brands.
• 12:37
  Chris Chhim: And I think that, you know, large players, established brands in the Canadian market.
• 12:42
  Chris Chhim: Um, I would probably advise them to not rely on sort of some of the traditional Libras, which have been habit, nostalgia, Canadiana, this sort of thing.
• 12:51
  Chris Chhim: Canadiana, you know, is certainly a thing to play on, but it needs to come into play with other factors, right?
• 12:58
  Chris Chhim: So it's sort of, you know, not the main driver, but I would say that it's it's certainly a a one-up, right?
• 13:03
  Chris Chhim: It's certainly a plus.
• 13:04
  Chris Chhim: So everything given equal, you know, the Canadian brand will always win.
• 13:08
  Chris Chhim: Um, you know, given a huge price difference, maybe they might choose the Canadian brand for a one-off purchase or for a special occasion.
• 13:16
  Chris Chhim: For things that you buy every single day or, you know, more frequently, I would say just relying on that Canadian, you know, um, credentials, it needs to be partnered with value.
• 13:28
  Chris Chhim: It needs to be partnered with convenience, it needs to be partnered with, you know, these other aspects of value that you're talking about.
• 13:33
  Jen LaForge: Well said.
• 13:34
  Jen LaForge: Um where my brain's going in this conversation was the privilege that we have at Raccutin having so many different stores and different categories.
• 13:44
  Jen LaForge: In real time, we see how consumer spending is shifting.
• 13:48
  Jen LaForge: But again, we are isolated to 750 stores and some categories have different weight.
• 13:53
  Jen LaForge: Um what have you seen from as the single biggest change in consumer behavior um over the past say year?
• 14:03
  Jen LaForge: Is it a specific uh category or a specific spending habit, less frequency?
• 14:10
  Jen LaForge: Like what's the biggest change that the data speaks to this year?
• 14:15
  Chris Chhim: I would say that, you know, one of the biggest things is that you get a lot more Canadians that are open to bargain hunting, right?
• 14:21
  Chris Chhim: So, you know, they're look, they're on the lookout for deals.
• 14:25
  Chris Chhim: And, you know, there is a certain percentage of people that get that rush out of getting that huge deal.
• 14:30
  Chris Chhim: You have, you know, I would say about a quarter of uh Canadians saying that they really love hunting down deals, right?
• 14:36
  Chris Chhim: And you know, it's easy to think that, you know, oh, Canadians just love deals, but there is still that other rest of that high, right?
• 14:42
  Chris Chhim: So the other proportion of people, you have a fair amount of people saying that they're looking for deals because they have to, right?
• 14:48
  Chris Chhim: So because of some of those um pressures that we were talking about earlier, you and you also have a certain amount of people that say that they get a rush out of, you know, out of out of out of getting a good deal.
• 14:59
  Chris Chhim: They feel like they've won, right?
• 15:01
  Chris Chhim: So I think, you know, given all the things that have happened, you're getting a Canadian consumer that feels like they've won when they get a deal.
• 15:09
  Chris Chhim: I would also link that back to maybe a sense of, you know, control almost.
• 15:14
  Chris Chhim: So it's a way of, you know, all these things that are, you know, happening in the world and that have been going on for the past few years.
• 15:20
  Chris Chhim: This is a way that Canadians can say, okay, this is, you know, that I can demonstrate control and also competence, right?
• 15:27
  Chris Chhim: So it's like I understand how the system works.
• 15:29
  Chris Chhim: I know that I can get these deals, I know I can get a lower price if I do X, Y, or Z thing.
• 15:34
  Chris Chhim: Um, so yeah, I think that's one of the things that's coming out in the past few years.
• 15:38
  Jen LaForge: I I can confirm that because we see that in the space.
• 15:41
  Jen LaForge: We see members joining Brackchen um and being more engaged and doing the hard work and and using the coupons and the deals and subscribing to the email.
• 15:50
  Jen LaForge: So we've seen that behavior as well, that taking over control where I can, um, which maybe is our prime minister for saying control what we can control.
• 16:00
  Jen LaForge: It's it's trickling down into our shopping behaviors.
• 16:03
  Jen LaForge: Um, but but say five, seven, eight years ago, deal hunting, what was that like for Canadians compared to today, where it is a necessity and a thrill and a control aspect?
• 16:15
  Jen LaForge: Were they deal hunting eight years ago?
• 16:18
  Chris Chhim: I I think they were, but I think it it definitely took a different shape.
• 16:21
  Chris Chhim: And maybe nowadays there's there's more urgency uh around needing to look for a deal.
• 16:26
  Chris Chhim: Uh the other thing is that I would say that people are willing, peop back in the day, people were willing to root around a little bit more.
• 16:32
  Chris Chhim: They're willing to maybe jump through a few more hoops.
• 16:35
  Chris Chhim: Okay.
• 16:35
  Chris Chhim: Um nowadays I would say that, yes, sure, there are those people that do love, you know, the bargain hunting, they do love hunting things down, that sort of thing.
• 16:44
  Chris Chhim: But because of the accumulation of everything that we have to carry around in our heads, right?
• 16:48
  Chris Chhim: Like what's going on uh in my own life?
• 16:51
  Chris Chhim: Will am I in danger of losing my job?
• 16:53
  Chris Chhim: Like, what about my children?
• 16:55
  Chris Chhim: What about my mortgage?
• 16:56
  Chris Chhim: This sort of thing.
• 16:57
  Chris Chhim: We're carrying around so many more things in our heads nowadays, uh, just also as a byproduct of modern society progressing in the past decade or so.
• 17:06
  Chris Chhim: But I would say they're also looking for simplicity as well, right?
• 17:09
  Chris Chhim: So uh getting these deals in a in an easy way.
• 17:13
  Chris Chhim: I don't want to say easy way, getting these deals uh with less friction.
• 17:17
  Chris Chhim: Yeah, exactly.
• 17:18
  Chris Chhim: Thank you.
• 17:19
  Chris Chhim: Because that's the thing.
• 17:20
  Chris Chhim: And you know, in that same data where we had, you know, about a quarter saying that they're they love hunting down deals, there are you know other percentages like upwards of you know 30% saying, yeah, I like a deal if I don't have to work too hard to get it and that sort of thing.
• 17:32
  Chris Chhim: So that's probably where Rakuten kind of steps in as well, right?
• 17:35
  Chris Chhim: It's just sort of because it's kind of housed under under one roof, you know, it makes finding these deals and getting the rewards much easier, right?
• 17:43
  Chris Chhim: You don't have to do a lot of complex calculations uh because they're already carrying around so much stuff in their heads.
• 17:49
  Jen LaForge: Thank you.
• 17:49
  Jen LaForge: You're hired.
• 17:50
  unknown: You're fired.
• 17:52
  Jen LaForge: We do, we do aim for simplicity because we see how important uh it is in the consumer's journey.
• 17:57
  Jen LaForge: And you're absolutely right about what we're carrying in our headspace.
• 18:01
  Jen LaForge: Um, that can lead consumers to being more thoughtful in how they're spending and where they're finding deals.
• 18:08
  Jen LaForge: Could it also go the opposite direction where it's driving more impulse?
• 18:14
  Jen LaForge: And, you know, I'm starting to think about revenge spending and things like that.
• 18:18
  Jen LaForge: Like how does what what switches that behavior or or they really separate behaviors, two different types of people?
• 18:30
  Chris Chhim: I I think it's possible to, you know, carry many different personalities in the same person.
• 18:35
  Chris Chhim: So definitely, you know, the same person that, you know, is very conscientious, you know, very good at, you know, finding deals and that sort of thing, you know, maybe that psychologically gives a little space for that revenge spend, that revenge travel to go out to come out from time to time, right?
• 18:52
  Chris Chhim: So I think, you know, it's very possible to both of those things can be true, is what I'll say.
• 18:58
  Jen LaForge: I love it.
• 18:59
  Jen LaForge: And I might have a couple of different personalities, so I will agree with that as well.
• 19:03
  Jen LaForge: The uh I was going to ask you, how are can Canadians feeling today?
• 19:07
  Jen LaForge: Uh, but that might be very different today than it was yesterday given the 50% tariff uh conversations uh that have been happening.
• 19:16
  Jen LaForge: But uh leading up so far in 2026, how are Canadian consumers feeling today?
• 19:24
  Chris Chhim: They're very cautious, I would say.
• 19:26
  Chris Chhim: They're cautiously they're cautiously going about their their day, right?
• 19:31
  Chris Chhim: I wouldn't I I wouldn't say optimistic because we do have um data that shows that uh quite a few a fair percentage of Canadians think that things could potentially get worse um a year from now.
• 19:43
  Chris Chhim: Uh I think there's a but I think there's a large percentage of people saying that things will pretty much stay the same.
• 19:49
  Chris Chhim: So I think they're cautious, they're um waiting maybe on edge for the next big thing that that may rock their lives.
• 19:56
  Chris Chhim: So hence why they've started to adjust their spending accordingly, right?
• 19:59
  Chris Chhim: Um so I'd say they're they're nervous.
• 20:01
  Jen LaForge: Aaron Powell Within that that spend adjustment, where are savings coming into this?
• 20:06
  Jen LaForge: Are Canadians saving more?
• 20:08
  Jen LaForge: Are they spending less but being smarter with and like what's that picture look like?
• 20:13
  Chris Chhim: Yeah.
• 20:13
  Chris Chhim: I would say that, you know, Canadians um overall, I say there's a fair amount of people experiencing financial distress, I would say.
• 20:23
  Chris Chhim: I think some of our latest opinion shows that maybe about 30% either cannot meet their monthly, you know, obligations, like the bills that they have to pay, or actively have to go into debt to meet them.
• 20:34
  Chris Chhim: There is another, you know, cushion, let's say another layer of people that say that they can, you know, meet all their obligations, they can pay other bills, um, but they really don't have much left over.
• 20:44
  Chris Chhim: And then there's another layer, uh, about another third of people that say that, you know, they can meet their uh obligations and still have a little bit of money left over.
• 20:52
  Chris Chhim: So I think that, you know, they are the ones who can are saving, but they're they're keeping it, right?
• 20:58
  Chris Chhim: They're not spending it, they're keeping it for that next big crisis, they're keeping it for a rainy day, um, that sort of thing.
• 21:04
  Jen LaForge: So based on that, you're you're making me question how Canadians are saving today.
• 21:10
  Jen LaForge: And we've got three quadrants, more economic pressures.
• 21:13
  Jen LaForge: You would think automatically that we're saving less, but the data might tell a different picture.
• 21:20
  Jen LaForge: How is this all changing how Canadians are saving?
• 21:23
  Jen LaForge: And are we saving more now?
• 21:26
  Chris Chhim: That's a big question.
• 21:28
  Chris Chhim: I would say that Canadians probably are more intent.
• 21:32
  Chris Chhim: They have the intention of saving more than, let's say, 10 years ago, because of all these different pressures and all these different, you know, stressors that are accumulating in their lives.
• 21:41
  Chris Chhim: Things are getting more expensive, mortgage rates, you know, are up and down, that sort of thing.
• 21:46
  Chris Chhim: So they definitely have the intention.
• 21:48
  Chris Chhim: Well, because of all those other things that I mentioned that are stressing them, they find themselves not being able to save as much.
• 21:54
  Chris Chhim: Um I would say to that.
• 21:56
  Jen LaForge: Aaron Powell You're making me think of the uh the Great Depression and the Way generations behaved.
• 22:01
  Jen LaForge: There's fundamental behavior shifts in those that lived through the depression and the generations that came after.
• 22:08
  Jen LaForge: And they're still present today, 60 years later.
• 22:11
  Jen LaForge: Based on what we've gone through in seven years, do you think there will be a generation or a subgroup of people who think about saving differently?
• 22:20
  Chris Chhim: Oh, for sure.
• 22:21
  Chris Chhim: Yeah.
• 22:21
  Chris Chhim: I mean, I think, I mean, needless to say, the pandemic was huge, right?
• 22:26
  Chris Chhim: And everything that we've gone through, all these once-in-a-lifetime events that certain generations have gone through, and they're sort of more foundational years, uh, will definitely affect them for the rest of their lives pretty much.
• 22:38
  Chris Chhim: We often talk about in economics, about wage scarring, for instance, and that sort of thing.
• 22:43
  Chris Chhim: So the fact that they've been underemployed or have maybe not had pay rises or have had more precarious employment kind of sets you on a certain trajectory, right?
• 22:54
  Chris Chhim: As opposed to if you had had those, you know, positive growth opportunities, you're able to jump around to different jobs and increase your salary and that sort of thing.
• 23:02
  Chris Chhim: So I think wage scarring, also the way that people talk about money differently as well.
• 23:07
  Chris Chhim: So we've done a whole bunch of other studies talking about sort of the way people feel about their finances.
• 23:12
  Chris Chhim: And, you know, because of these pressures, we're seeing that younger generations, there's a certain openness to talk about finances.
• 23:19
  Chris Chhim: There's an openness to talk about whether or not they can afford things, right?
• 23:23
  Chris Chhim: I think there's less of the keeping up with the Joneses mentality.
• 23:26
  Chris Chhim: And in fact, it's sort of um not shameful or, you know, it people are just talking about their financial struggles a little bit more in the open, possibly because a lot of people are going through the same thing.
• 23:37
  Chris Chhim: So it's maybe cathartic, it's maybe like a group therapy um kind of thing as well, just to admit to these sorts of things that maybe previous generations um maybe it was a bit taboo to talk about uh money in the open and that sort of thing.
• 23:50
  Chris Chhim: Um there's certainly more openness uh in this generation for sure.
• 23:54
  Jen LaForge: You said the word shame and we had a guest uh on on Stacked, Danica Nelson, and we really talked about uh living a life of freedom.
• 24:05
  Jen LaForge: And um people would spend on a lifestyle that they don't actually want because they want to be perceived as they have more money, they're wealthier.
• 24:15
  Jen LaForge: Um that's kind of going wayside.
• 24:18
  Jen LaForge: And and even there's the quiet luxury movement where there's no logos, there's no labels.
• 24:24
  Jen LaForge: Um, and so you're really speaking to, I think, I think a really healthy shift in consumers, moving away from that feeling of shame, of that competition, which I think will be healthier, healthier overall.
• 24:36
  Jen LaForge: Talking about, you know, that keeping up with the Joneses and and you know, looking like we're rich makes me think of the luxury category.
• 24:44
  Jen LaForge: We're in a K economy.
• 24:46
  Jen LaForge: There's certain sectors that are getting hurt, but but what does the luxury category look like?
• 24:50
  Jen LaForge: How are consumers within that space reacting right now?
• 24:55
  Chris Chhim: I mean, I would say that it's very tempting when we talk about these macroeconomic indicators and you know how much str financial stress Canadians are under.
• 25:03
  Chris Chhim: Um, it's very tempting to think that Canadians are just looking for the lowest cost, right?
• 25:07
  Chris Chhim: And to a certain degree, that is, that is true in some sectors and for some people.
• 25:11
  Chris Chhim: Um however, I mean there is, I would say that Canadians um are more intentional about the things that they want to buy, right?
• 25:19
  Chris Chhim: So there is, you know, luxury isn't dead for sure.
• 25:22
  Chris Chhim: I mean, people would still want nice things for themselves and that sort of thing.
• 25:25
  Chris Chhim: Um, but it has to be justified, right?
• 25:27
  Chris Chhim: And people will not just spend thousands of dollars on a shirt or a bag um just because, right?
• 25:33
  Chris Chhim: So it's what am I getting out of this?
• 25:34
  Chris Chhim: And you know, that looks like different things to different people.
• 25:37
  Chris Chhim: So what is the utility that you're getting out of this purchase, right?
• 25:40
  Chris Chhim: So maybe for some people it is, I want to look, you know, great and wonderful and rich and that sort of thing.
• 25:47
  Chris Chhim: And that's the utility that they get out of it, right?
• 25:49
  Chris Chhim: That's the value uh that they get out of that money.
• 25:51
  Chris Chhim: For others, you know, it might be, oh, it's higher quality materials, that sort of thing.
• 25:56
  Chris Chhim: Then they care about that sort of thing.
• 25:58
  Chris Chhim: So there is value uh in that sort of thing as well.
• 26:01
  Chris Chhim: Um so I would say that, you know, luxury brands shouldn't um, you know, be panicking at this point in time, but really think about, you know, what is driving these consumers?
• 26:10
  Chris Chhim: Like what is what is the value that they're getting out of these products and really, you know, lean into that.
• 26:15
  Jen LaForge: Okay, that's a fantastic answer and not at all what I would have would have assumed in terms of that intentionality.
• 26:21
  Jen LaForge: Um, so thank you for that.
• 26:23
  Jen LaForge: The um the the landscape across the board, different categories.
• 26:28
  Jen LaForge: Um, is there one in particular that you think could use more data about consumer spending um in terms of they're being hit the hardest in shifts or it's happening faster, or data is really going to help them maintain the storm?
• 26:45
  Chris Chhim: Can I say all of them?
• 26:47
  unknown: Yes.
• 26:47
  unknown: You can.
• 26:48
  Chris Chhim: I mean, you know, I'm probably biased given, you know, where I work and that sort of thing.
• 26:52
  Chris Chhim: But we always say that more data is is more is is helpful, right?
• 26:56
  Chris Chhim: It always hurts.
• 26:57
  Chris Chhim: It it can't hurt to have more data about these sorts of things.
• 26:59
  Chris Chhim: And you know, you of course risk um being overwhelmed by by all the information and trying to make sense of the noise.
• 27:06
  Chris Chhim: Um, but it certainly helps you help you make decisions for sure, right?
• 27:10
  Jen LaForge: Uh given you have uh insights and so much data, what is one nugget you can give to brands who are are not necessarily using data enough in these times?
• 27:21
  Jen LaForge: What are they missing?
• 27:22
  Jen LaForge: What's one piece of information you think they should all hear today in terms of how to weather the storms?
• 27:31
  Chris Chhim: I would say one of the, and you know it's a buzzword nowadays, but I would say that one of the huge things that brands need to be paying attention to is the role of AI in the in the shopping process, in the search process.
• 27:41
  Chris Chhim: Um, you know, it was a time when people would shop around, they would go to different sites and this sort of thing.
• 27:47
  Chris Chhim: And it's a small percent for now, but I think it will has the potential to grow.
• 27:52
  Chris Chhim: Um, is that the number of people that are maybe inputting some of their preferences into their favorite AI tool and say, okay, I need a new face wash, or I need, you know, I want to plan a holiday package and this sort of thing, or I want to purchase a car even, and to say, you know, given all these things, what are some models, what are some brands, what are some products that I should be thinking about?
• 28:15
  Chris Chhim: And then trying to figure out how your brand shows up in those search results, right?
• 28:21
  Chris Chhim: So I think this is one of the things.
• 28:23
  Chris Chhim: It's like the new SEO kind of thing, right?
• 28:25
  Chris Chhim: So how to optimize how your company, how your brand shows up in AI.
• 28:30
  Chris Chhim: And I think this is also tied to this larger question about cognitive load, right?
• 28:35
  Chris Chhim: So because of, you know, going back to that idea about we have so many things in our heads, we're we're carrying them around, you know, you really want to simplify the process for people, right?
• 28:45
  Chris Chhim: So I know that we tend to think of, you know, value, you know, convenience, access, like there, there are different indicators, right?
• 28:52
  Chris Chhim: That you know, us on the inside, we like to, you know, have them all separated out.
• 28:56
  Chris Chhim: But, you know, consumers experience them all together, right?
• 29:00
  Chris Chhim: So I think it's about reducing that, that, that burden that people have to think about.
• 29:04
  Chris Chhim: There's so many things that they have to consider.
• 29:06
  Chris Chhim: Um, and to think about, you know, sort of how if you have a if you have a loyalty or rewards program, like how that um is maybe helping or hindering the thought process, right?
• 29:19
  Chris Chhim: Because, you know, you do have certain um uh programs where it's difficult to root to um to redeem, like you were thinking about um, you know, you have to activate certain offers and there's certain multipliers on certain days and this and that.
• 29:33
  Chris Chhim: And you know, you can only use these things for this certain thing.
• 29:37
  Chris Chhim: You know, to think about all the things that we have to worry about in the world and then remember, I need to do my, you know, shampoo purchase on this particular day because I get 10 times the points, uh, you know, that only appeals to a certain amount of a certain percentage of people, right?
• 29:52
  Chris Chhim: So I think, you know, reducing the cognitive burden that you're placing on your on your customers is a huge thing.
• 30:00
  Chris Chhim: And then that ties into that bigger AI sort of like search engine.
• 30:04
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, it's it's it's almost removing that cognitive load and narrowing things down.
• 30:09
  Jen LaForge: And then brands have to be very careful about bringing that that that that load back is is what you're saying.
• 30:16
  Jen LaForge: Is that accurate?
• 30:17
  Jen LaForge: How they're playing together, do you think?
• 30:19
  Chris Chhim: Yeah, I would say so.
• 30:20
  Chris Chhim: Yeah.
• 30:21
  Jen LaForge: Um I will agree on the the SEO side and how that's changing amongst AI.
• 30:26
  Jen LaForge: It's a huge topic right now.
• 30:28
  Jen LaForge: And I think there's a lot of brands who are going to miss the memos or are going to underestimate or underscore the importance of doing that now.
• 30:35
  Jen LaForge: Because you know, if anyone's in there, it knows it takes time to build, it takes time to optimize and mature.
• 30:41
  Jen LaForge: Um, so so I think that's a great tip from a brand side to make sure you're leaning in there.
• 30:46
  Chris Chhim: And I would say it works two ways, right?
• 30:48
  Chris Chhim: So the brands need to, you know, be conscious about how they're showing up in these sorts of um AI tools that are, you know, I I I feel that their usage will only increase, but also people using them to be cognizant of, you know, where's this information coming from?
• 31:01
  Chris Chhim: Um, am I checking it?
• 31:03
  Chris Chhim: Um, and that sort of thing.
• 31:04
  Chris Chhim: So it does work both ways.
• 31:05
  Chris Chhim: Aaron Powell, it does.
• 31:05
  Jen LaForge: You're you're making me think, and we've had different episodes talking about simplicity and how important it is in a loyalty program and how AI is changing the consumer journey and making it so fast and efficient.
• 31:16
  Jen LaForge: Now it's almost making me think that that that that load, that cognizant load is going from the consumers on to us working in the space, because now we have to think about how we're showing up and we're we're racing uh with AI to keep up with it and we're understanding value of our consumers and where we're showing up.
• 31:36
  Jen LaForge: And so it's been almost this huge shift, what is it fair to say, onto to marketers.
• 31:42
  Chris Chhim: I'm not sure if it's a shift per se in terms of the burden going from the consumer to to the to the um brand, but I would say that they're just they just have different things to worry about.
• 31:52
  Chris Chhim: I think we have this new tool um that we're only just starting to, you know, get at the tip of the iceberg as to what it can do and what it does.
• 32:00
  Chris Chhim: So I think it's two sides of the same coin, right?
• 32:03
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 32:03
  Jen LaForge: No, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
• 32:06
  Jen LaForge: Um that's a much better way to to to think through it.
• 32:09
  Jen LaForge: So thank you.
• 32:10
  Jen LaForge: No problem.
• 32:10
  Jen LaForge: Um now you're leading me to my favorite questions, which is about value.
• 32:15
  Jen LaForge: And I get to ask you not only uh what your personal definition of value is, but what do you think Canadians as a whole their definition of value is?
• 32:24
  Jen LaForge: So let's start with you, Chris.
• 32:26
  Jen LaForge: How do you personally define value?
• 32:28
  Jen LaForge: What does it mean to you?
• 32:30
  Chris Chhim: You know, I've my I've had a lot of thoughts about this, not just, you know, after being invited here, but also just in general, right?
• 32:38
  Chris Chhim: Because of all the stuff going on.
• 32:41
  Chris Chhim: Um I would say for me, value is less friction, right?
• 32:46
  Chris Chhim: I find myself paying, willing to pay a little bit more if it simplifies things in my life, if you know I don't have to wait in line somewhere or you know, this sort of thing.
• 32:57
  Chris Chhim: Uh I if it's taking away a stressor or a worry, um, that sort of thing, I think for me that's that's worth it in a sense.
• 33:05
  Chris Chhim: Okay.
• 33:05
  Chris Chhim: To switch gears and you know, to think about what value means for Canadians.
• 33:11
  Chris Chhim: And once again, it goes back to this idea that everybody is different.
• 33:14
  Chris Chhim: Canadians are different by region, age, gender, you know, this sort of thing.
• 33:19
  Chris Chhim: So really everybody has their own, you know, kind of set of values and the utility that they derive out of things.
• 33:27
  Chris Chhim: So I think if I were to give like a general piece of advice about what value means for Canadians, I think it means, you know, being confident that you've made the right choice, right?
• 33:36
  Chris Chhim: So I think it's, you know, based on what you think is important, what you are willing to pay more for, what you're willing what you want to get out of a certain experience or product, you know, having that idea that you're protected against um not having made the wrong decision, right?
• 33:55
  Chris Chhim: So I think that, you know, this this um comfort of knowing that you've made the right choice.
• 34:01
  Chris Chhim: And then also it sort of like goes back to some of those thoughts about being in control and feeling empowered and feeling like you've made the smart choice.
• 34:10
  Chris Chhim: I think that that's what I would say value would probably mean to Canadians in general.
• 34:15
  Jen LaForge: That really resonated with me.
• 34:16
  Jen LaForge: So I feel like that's a great way to describe uh value for Canadians as a whole.
• 34:21
  Jen LaForge: Obviously, we're all unique, and as we've learned, every definition of value so far has been different.
• 34:27
  Jen LaForge: Um, and so we can't just blanket the definition of value to Canadians, but it does resonate uh that we are more conservative, more thoughtful, and we do pride ourselves on those good decisions.
• 34:39
  Jen LaForge: Chris, thank you for being here.
• 34:41
  Jen LaForge: I will say to anyone watching uh data and having third parties bring you data outside of your world and what you can gather and hone in on is going to be more critical and exceptionally valuable because we've gone through the gamut for the past six years.
• 34:57
  Jen LaForge: It's not going to slow down.
• 34:58
  Jen LaForge: There's more ahead of us, and the consumer behaviors and how they're responding are changing every day, every week.
• 35:04
  Jen LaForge: Like I said, today, very different from yesterday based on headlines.
• 35:08
  Jen LaForge: So please uh find friends with data.
• 35:10
  Jen LaForge: I can recommend some here from Angus Reed.
• 35:13
  Jen LaForge: Um, but it is evolving, it is it's heavy, it is crazy.
• 35:17
  Jen LaForge: Um, it is a fun world within uh the consumer space.
• 35:21
  Jen LaForge: And I'm glad to have Angus Reed uh help us navigate that.
• 35:24
  Chris Chhim: No problem.
• 35:25
  Chris Chhim: And to that point, I would also add that you know, understanding the overall context is also invaluable, right?
• 35:31
  Chris Chhim: Because citizens, the uh consumers don't necessarily operate in a vacuum.
• 35:35
  Chris Chhim: So they really need to take into account the whole context of what's going on in the world and that how it affects how people are feeling and ultimately how they're spending.
• 35:43
  Jen LaForge: That perfect comment to help us with our ca our load, our mental load, um, and being very focused on what's important and what's not important because everything's coming at us everywhere, every day, all at once.
• 35:55
  Jen LaForge: Thank you.
• 35:56
  Jen LaForge: Thank you for that context.
• 35:57
  Jen LaForge: No problem.
• 35:58
  Jen LaForge: All right, there you have it.
• 35:59
  Jen LaForge: And that's it for this episode of Stacked.
• 36:01
  Jen LaForge: If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes.
• 36:09
  Jen LaForge: And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you.
• 36:12
  Jen LaForge: See you next time.