Latest / Sales Trajectory Podcast / “From Snake-Filled Sites to Sales Leadership: Jason Howes’ Journey & Lessons in Complex Sales”

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“From Snake-Filled Sites to Sales Leadership: Jason Howes’ Journey & Lessons in Complex Sales” · Sales Trajectory Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Art and Science of Complex Sales.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is a podcast where we explore how the best B2B sales leaders make the complex simple, drive relationships and revenue, and generally elevate the sales profession.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: In this podcast, we're bringing together sales experts, thought leaders, top account executives, buyers, industry insiders, all to share their experiences and best practices for navigating the complex sales cycle.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you're a seasoned sales professional, a sales leader, or just starting out, you're going to find practical insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own sales journey.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, we have a bit of fun.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Founder and managing director of Aero Executive Sales, Jason Howes is a student of the game.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Starting sales at the early age of 19, he quickly moved his way up and through companies with a tireless work ethic and a passion for learning.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: A veteran of the timber industry in Australia, his career traversed everything from knocking on doors in snake-filled construction sites to running sales organizations with hundreds of millions in revenue and continent-wide accounts.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Needless to say, Jason has learned many lessons in the trade.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's an avid fan of sales process and objective measures for understanding sales performance and a leadership and business coach.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And Jason shares many of his lessons from his years in the field and leading teams today.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the program.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Jason House, welcome to the show, my man.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Going very well, Paul.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me today.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is it today?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what time is it on your side of the world?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're in the future.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's very early, Paul.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the 7 a.m.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: in the morning.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's fantastic.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Jason is is on the other side of the world from me.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell him he's in the future, which is good.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me what happens tomorrow.
• 1:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the weather's nice, I can tell you that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but yes, I actually did um have a bit of a laugh about that with my daughters recently when I was over your way.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I said that I was in the future.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're in the past.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're in the future.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was in the past.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: What am I talking about?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: You went back.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like back to you're going back to the future.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, so I love that.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: People didn't oh, it's fantastic.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't know that we were gonna be talking about this today.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, Jason, you're Jason is uh down under, he's in Australia, and I'm in uh Columbus, Ohio, as as frequent listeners know.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've dropped that a couple times.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh um, but uh yeah, Jason is a is uh expert in sales down there, and we are bringing him on today to talk a little bit about his sales journey.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate you joining us.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so tell me you got a really unique story uh in sales.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And do you mind uh diving into that as we get started?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like how'd you get how'd you get started?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure, Paul.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's always an interesting story how we all got into it.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So uh didn't go too good at school, it wasn't my time, actually.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh really uh played a lot of sport, loved that, loved the competitive side of sport, squash and AFL football, Aussie rules, very competitive.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh unfortunately.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Can I stop you for one second?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because Aussie rules football mystifies me.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to know, you gotta show me, you gotta either send me a YouTube link or something like that because it's so much fun to watch, but I have no idea what I'm watching.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Paul, look, I mean, you're talking to the right bloke here.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, being a Collingwood supporter, the greatest team on earth, I will send you some clips of their recent game.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So huge shout out to Peter Dacos and his sons, uh Nick and uh oh geez, I shouldn't forget that poor bloke because he's he's actually uh there's a few people missing him at the moment.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but yeah, no, the Dacos brothers are uh fantastic.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, great.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Love love the pies, but yeah, definitely keen to send that to you.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and um yeah, look send them my way because I have no idea what I'm watching, but I always watch it in that big circle field, and I absolutely love it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So uh probably a bit of a big one.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, so I interrupted you.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, man.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you love the sports, not the schools.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, I wasn't great at school.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I should take that back.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it wasn't too bad.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't try enough.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't my time.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I actually liked woodwork, but I was terrible at doing it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I actually was okay at mass, but I probably messed around a bit too much in class, so I got pushed down to the lower level justifiably.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so my dad actually was talking to his uh boss one day, and he said, Oh, the guy down the local trust plan is looking for a computer guy um to design roof trusses as a trainee.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually um big shout out to the Apple IIe computer back in probably 1980, I think.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: My family um, you know, purchased that for us for the kids and um ended up using a computer a fair bit and and did quite well on the computer.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: My brother was really good.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So actually ended up landing this job at the timber trust plan and uh had had a couple of very good mentors.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was basically doing work that I had no idea on what I was doing.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: That was the time that I realized I needed to know trigonometry, which I should have been listening in in class, and wasn't that great.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh one of those moments just out of school.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I was very lucky I had some great mentors, um, three in particular, two owners, and and the uh estimator detailers.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I was actually designing roof trusses and wall frames.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And um, one of the other good things that I did was uh I used to get a lot of people coming in to um to serve the timber so uh retail.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to you know be able to help solve a lot of problems for you know a lot of the old guys and a lot of the hippies too, actually, from up on the hills was always interesting, trying to sort their problems out.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but yeah, ended up falling into an external sales role in my local area when I was 19.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that was very early.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the builders, because I played local footy, um, they put me in charge of the local builders.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, look, I really embraced it from a very early age.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I might have mentioned this story before.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: We'd, you know, if I won a project with a builder, I'd go and hammer the sign in the ground, you know.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, you know, like I've won, you know, and and it really um, yeah, my mates hated it, but I was like, I'm doing this, man.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm celebrating.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, and I did that.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was um lucky enough to get a um a transfer with a uh large company up to Brisbane into an external sales role when I was 22 in the wholesale environment.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd worked sort of retail, trade, wholesale, uh, was with those guys for about 11 and a half years.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was 29, ended up as the uh national account manager, looking after major groups and uh the Bunnings and Minor 10s and all those sort of guys.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm sort of speeding this up so I can get through.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um wait, so you you're going from a high school, not loving school, loving sports, but you're loving to compete.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're going from uh from that to designing trusses to selling lumber to being a national accounts manager within 10 years.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty that's pretty awesome.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I didn't expect it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I did do a traineeship in sales and merchandising.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I did do a diploma of marketing because I wanted to know more about it uh in that time.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, then I was approached to um so with uh with Hein, it was a great company, been around for about 145 years, one of the largest sawmillers in Australia, and very good breeding ground.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, did a lot of door knocking, got given a very ordinary list of clients.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was the best thing for me.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I see way too many salespeople, unfortunately, get given handed a very good list of clients.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: My boss at the time, Peter Heine, he said, How's he?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: You've got some, you've got a couple of good ones here, but you've got some real average ones as well.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and some of the names were spelt wrong with the on the customers that I was given.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I was pretty well just driving around anywhere.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And just if I saw timber, knock, knock, knock.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And look, interesting enough, I uh I learned a lot of things and made a lot of mistakes, but I did grow business from you know, probably three or four hundred thousand a month to over two million a month.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, and I was very fortunate enough talking about knocking on the right door.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I went out to the back streets of Ipswich one day in in Brisbane, and and I'm I'm telling you now, this is pretty scary, this place.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was um, you know, the grass was high, there would have been snakes everywhere.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was, and I'm driving in and I found this guy, and he's like, Hey boy, you know, a bit of a cowboy, this bloke.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, I'm looking for this guy.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, No, you're in the wrong spot.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: This business went broke, but someone else bought it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Go and see this guy anyway.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I went and saw this guy, and you know, two years later, I'm doing a million dollars a month with him.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love it.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you're great and you persevere, you're gonna have one of those stories on sales.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I found that's how we found our first uh freaking uh business acquisition in my old company is literally knocking on doors, knocking on doors, became a client of us, and then we ended up having a chance to buy them.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was incredible, but uh that's fantastic.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolute perseverance there, brother.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, so I'm talking right in the back streets, man.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is pre-google driving around with a map, you know, in a city that I had no idea where I was going, um, with a mobile phone that I'd only just got because phones had just come out.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: The phone was like a brick.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: They used to call it the brick, actually.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's funny to it's funny to talk about this stuff because um, but I think you know what, honestly, I think this is stuff that's really good because you're right, it's that perseverance and the you know, I had no idea who I was seeing.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I just thought, you know what, I've got the time, I'm going out, and yeah, bang, hundred, you know, a million dollars a month.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and they're still a huge client for for Hein these days.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I'm talking like 25 years of business.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the the business that has come from that and that relationship that I started is is is massive.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I'm proud of that, even though the business, that business itself sort of has disintegrated a little bit, and it's but the people that were in that business have gone into other businesses that still deal with hine.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way it sort of works these days.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then I was looking after the the Bunnings account nationally as well, which is a bit like your Home Depot.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, being 29 and heading into the you know the the Melbourne City and seeing the go under the head offers was it was quite overwhelming.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I do remember, you know, by myself, it was um, you know, and I'd been in sales still for a while, but at 29, I was like, wow, this is like a bit of a next level here.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and the old building that it was in, um, the lift used to go up.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So anyone that knows Bunnings and been dealing with it for a long time, the lift would go up to the level and then it would come down a bit, and it'd settle down.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it was sort of like a bit of a weird sensation when you got to the level and you walked out.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I was quite lucky the the the timber buyer was was an older guy, and he, yeah, I I mean I knew my timber, uh, obviously from working across that retail trade, you know, manufacturing, uh, wholesale arena.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I did have a fairly good understanding.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I've always been a bit of a lucky guy, Paul.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And my it used to drive a lot of my family crazy.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: But um when um there was two big companies over here, one was BBC Hardware, one was Bunnings.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if anything, you would have thought BBC would have bought Bunnings, but Bunnings bought BBC.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So overnight, um, you know, there was an opportunity of where, wow, like I've just landed in this key account role, and now yeah, things are are happening.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we I pressed the acceleration button, and um pretty well we we went from like I don't know, five million to thirty-five million a year or something like that within a within a few years.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So and back then that was a lot of money, yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's a lot of money now.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Jeez.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you uh how do you do that?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: How do you keep track of that that type of growth and keep your head on straight and keep your customers straight?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, especially at that time, right?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're not you're not dealing with like massive CRMs or or anything like that.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean no CRM.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: XL.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was lucky I was I was okay on XL.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's an interesting question because I I love that part of my job.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was probably my the you know, the the the time of my life in that in that position.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And Heiner didn't just go on to Melbourne as well.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they're only in um Queensland, New South Wales, and they'd go on to Melbourne.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we had a really good team.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we had a lot of branches, about 12 sites, I think, back then.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the the business hadn't really been big with the group accounts.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we're also dealing with um, you know, MITRE 10, which is another big hardware chain here, and also big buying groups like um Nat Build as well, which was called, I think it was MBSG back then.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we had a fairly good position in the market where people really were looking for another major supplier.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it was just, I suppose we were there at that moment and we were able to, you know, have those consultative selling approaches where I was just I'd just listen to what the guys were were talking about and saying, okay, I could I could sort of see the shortages of product and I could see that they were very heavily aligned to particular suppliers.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, you know, look, we're here to help you out if if needed.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, if you want to um shift a percentage of supply our way, I had to go into bat for it because I had to try and get it, get the material, you know, from one segment back into the um the group account segment.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but yeah, we were just it was it was a good time.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the the years of being on the road, I was on the road for eight and a half years really helped me because I had a really good understanding of what the other guys who I were working with had in their jobs.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to be on their level of um what their customers want and and their challenges.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So after years in the trenches, after uh driving, you know, on the road for eight and a half years, driving, driving into snake-infested areas, prospecting, it's gotta give you a pretty good uh you know, managing one of the biggest accounts in Australia.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's gotta give you a pretty good uh vision for what sales is.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: How has that helped you clear?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: What is sales when it comes to you and your definition of that?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, it's a good question.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, it's and more recently I've been even just you know reflecting a lot to that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sales is about helping someone fix a problem and get from one point to the next and and and being able to, you know, make them more effective or more efficient, or uh, you know, from a timber point of view, it was always like, you know, hey, that one, that that production there is is you know, is is the out the production we have will save you money, it'd be less waste, be less handling, uh, be less storage or less returns or or whatever it is.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's about helping someone solve a problem.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, as you know, if there's no urgency, well then people probably aren't gonna do something.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can prove that there is a compelling reason for change and show them the value why and how they can make it happen, well, then in most cases, a lot of people will go, hey, let's I'm gonna give you some time to talk about it.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's talk about what you're thinking.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and I mean, you really like you're like a doctor, really, aren't you?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you're there to try and diagnose what's happening and then try and prescribe that that um solution.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think what you talk about before with snake-infested grounds, I mean, when you're on the road and you're out there selling for a long time, it's a hard grind.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I even from a mindset point of view, I used to have a lot of challenges getting up and getting out there every day.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is a really tough job.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for any salesperson out there, well done.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly if you've been doing it for a long time.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I remember going out there some days in the car and turning around and going home just thinking, I just wasn't in the zone.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I it's it's it's really tough.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why, too, a lot of people tend to, you know, head into the office as well.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's easy to go, you know, I'll just go in the office.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And but that then causes people to get comfortable, you know, and they're they start to do the things that they like doing and things that so I suppose what what I did back then was the hard yards, as you said, taking on snakes.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I remember um do you get water dragons over there and um those little freaky looking things?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I remember still I I don't think any I don't think in in Ohio we don't have anything that is named a dragon.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, people love um they love it over here because I mean if you're talking about it's not like crocodile Dundee stuff I'm talking about here.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean I'd be standing, I'd be standing at a timber rack down in Balloner, New South Wales, and for anyone that knows Balloner would know there's the old bunning store there, but there'd be water dragons everywhere.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: You'd be standing there, and next thing you'd be like, Oh, geez, man, you scared me.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, then they'd be like, I don't know, they weren't that long, maybe like a foot.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, just a foot.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Just a foot long doesn't come up and scaring you.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm not talking about the Gowanna that we used to see when I was a young bloke, they were like two meters, man.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Gowanas run up trees.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you like.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I mean, yeah, like sales guys these days can see you can see why.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can see why it's tiring, man.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and being on the road all the time is tiring.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I personally, my opinion is that in the future we will end up with less salespeople, um, which is happening anyway, but we will end up with better salespeople because businesses are gonna have to start investing more in salespeople.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Business leaders and business owners need to understand that just having industry experience doesn't make someone a good salesperson.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let's dive yeah, let's dive, let's dive into that.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, you've been through uh I mean, just just from your journey.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here in perseverance, I'm here in discovery, I'm here in you know, a servant attitude, I'm here in leave leadership, I'm here in putting in the time and the work and the effort and the grind.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean what goes into uh today, what goes in today into a good salesperson?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is it different than when you than when you came up?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the same?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the same traits?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm actually reading um your book at the moment, um, from George.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's been interesting reading that.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I think that is Stop Killing Deals by George Bronteen, uh CEO of CEO of Membrane.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to George.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh here uh those of you that have the video, I'm I'm flashing it by the screen.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, no, it is a really good book, yeah.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what I love about the book is that is that it's short.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm all for like a quick read, you know what I mean?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Even at three o'clock in the morning when you can't sleep properly.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think just to go back, like so has things changed?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think it has.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: But differently.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like some parts of the job are are probably wouldn't say easier, but some part is better and some part is more difficult.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: If that makes sense.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think now the fact that um, you know, when I was doing it, I mean, doing discovery was a lot harder.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, to do discovery, you had to actually physically go in there.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, discovery for me back then was yellow pages, the phone book, um, the local paper, word of mouth, and or driving past and walking in and looking around.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been a big believer of if I went, if I was out prospecting, and I always used to say this to my sales guys, you always walk in the wrong way, or you accidentally walk through the back entrance to the shed and you're like, oh, sorry, I've never been here before, you know, I don't know where I'm going.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh mate, who's the best person to talk to?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: How's it going?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I I would find out so much stuff before I even got to the office.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I'd be like, people get a bit agitated, but I'm like, sorry, I've never been here before.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: That was my discovery.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've got to have a good memory because you need to be able to visualize all that stuff when you're walking in.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, you know, you're you're on the look, you know, everything you're seeing is like tick, tick, tick.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: But today, I think because the internet is so open, the the fact that you can actually do too much discovery sometimes, because as you know, you know, a lot of people don't want to do the actual activity, but they'll be comfortable doing the discovery.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they won't press the button to go to the next level, and that's probably to make a phone call or book an appointment.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Guilty as charged a little bit myself, sometimes I think it's you know, you do have to take action.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you know, so but then again, um, yeah, so now you can probably get too much information back then you couldn't, but at least back, I suppose back in you know, the olden days, I'll call it, because I was, at least you got to meet the customer a lot earlier.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're actually face to face more.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's a bit more difficult.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, it can be secret service, but I still do get out there and do some, I did some coal calling last year, actually.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Just parked the car and walked down the street.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was awesome.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I loved it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Good to uh bust the cobwebs off.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I did that uh it was summer in Tucson, Arizona.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I had a sales sales job with Alpha Graphics print shops as my my dad was a former franchise owner, and then I I got connected with an alpha graphics there, and it was well, you probably it's hot down in Australia too, but it was it was only like a it was Between 115 to 120 every day, walking, walking the streets and dropping in to drop off business card samples.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was it, just knocking doors, right?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Knocking doors.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: But those tips and tricks, like you know, walk in the back door, that would be that's brilliant.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's an absolute brilliant way to do it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would always walk in and ask for a cup of water because that's what I needed.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody was like, Yeah, they all you you just got the uh the sympathy mind.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you have an awesome?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do you have a water cooler?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm sitting there, I'm a I'm a 20-year-old kid, I'm sweating through my sweating through my shirt.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, but it was uh the easiest way to just sit there and and start having a conversation with somebody.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it was uh, but those ways, it's interesting because while those ways aren't, I just judged this sales contest um in Idaho, and this this like there was two kids in one of them, and both of them were door to door, they were still door-to-door sales salespeople.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of them sold uh Cutco knives, they still go door to door.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the lessons they learned there and were were the other one was uh pest control.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we start door-to-door pest control.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: The lessons they learned there about staying in the moment, persevering, not giving up, just getting after it.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it is absolutely a different challenge today because today it's you a lot of times you're at home, right?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're in front of a computer, and it's like you have a million other things that you could be doing.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: You think that's it's not easy to keep the discipline that you need to keep keep cranking, keep moving.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, especially when the fridge is like a couple of meters away, mate.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you know, you duck in for a bit of a snack or something shiny walks past, or you know, it's uh yeah, no, it is they they hold they're all different challenges, really, aren't they?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's good different times, but it's to me, it's like the same base skill set.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: When you when you like when you go in and how do you help so today you're you're dealing with a completely different buyer set and and working with like you're dealing with CEOs of companies, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you're helping them craft their craft their sales teams.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are you what are you coaching them on?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like how how do you diagnose what somebody needs and then and get their sales team up to par?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are what are some of the things that you work on to do that?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I suppose the big part, Paul, as as you as you know, is that every business is different.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I'm dealing with businesses that do five million turnover and and the ones that do 300 million turnover plus.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, it's and some have been around five years, some have been around 50 years or 100 years in some cases.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I suppose that's uh, you know, I'm an Australian partner with the Objective Management Group, um, which has got a very close association with membrane.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um I said it, I had someone say it to the other day, will you I I won't do any work with anybody without disrespect unless we use the objective management group assessments and sales evaluations for their team.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to know without bias what's going on.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Where are they at?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Who's in the right role, who's not in the right role, what needs to change, what are they saying, what are they not saying, who are they targeting, who are they not targeting?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I I love the tool and OMG.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's one of the best things that I've ever seen.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and my objective as a business owner was to bring the best tools for my clients and for my business.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I love it and I'm sitting there, you know, last night watching a bit of TV, which I don't do too often, and in the background I'm still working because there's assessments coming through from OMG, you know.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: We've got about three or four recruitment jobs on at the moment.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So so um, but yeah, for us, it's about you know removing the bias because everyone's got their own bias.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I'm talking to a number of CEOs at the moment.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, let's have a look at where you're at.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one a few companies have been turning sales teams over up for salespeople over the bottom half of their sales force.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also as well here in Australia, like most countries, you know, with the um with COVID, you know, they've been booming.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, now it's starting to clear a little bit.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: The markets are still strong in uh the the section segment that I operate in, but there's starting to be a few questions about whether the sales team can get them to their next level.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And without disrespect to you, I mean you've been pretty well been putting out fires over the last two or three years and with more customer service instead of growing business.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So our priority is to grow business.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: We won't work with anyone unless they want to grow the business because that's what I love doing, that's my passion.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so yeah, for us, it's about understanding where they're at and then looking at um where they need to get to and how we're gonna get them there.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And normally, as I say to people, it's like you're you're here right now, and then whatever we do is gonna make a difference.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here, so I pretty well partner with with um with our clients for probably uh between six and twelve months.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I do have one client I've been working with for about three years that have been growing.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that that involves sort of you know hiring and and managing some people out, unfortunately, if they're not performing, and also looking at systems and processes and recruitment and yeah, so we've obviously another big um advantage to our businesses we've yeah, we've been a membrane partner for uh about a year and a half now, and that's been a game changer for as well, because what that does is you know, I really wanted to be a specialist in sales process and effectiveness, and membrane completely fitted that tool.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the combination of OMG and membrane for me, and with the experience that I've got in my industry provides a very powerful platform for me to be able to coach and manage my clients forward.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because as you know, obviously being an embedded partner, I get to actually be um inside their membrane so I can actually help them coach their team, look at what they're doing, what they're not doing, help them bring opportunities through the pipeline.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I'm actually getting to a stage now.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I do have some clients that don't use membrane, but I'm sort of becoming that close to the point that I will only work with someone if we're able to incorporate membrane into their business as well, because it just makes my experience and the results that I can offer my clients so much more powerful to be able to do that.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I uh I've been finding that with well, I've been finding with the top partners that have been in the in the game for a long time, understand it.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's just another piece of the tool set.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I've had a chance to talk with a lot of people across all industries, a lot of sales experts across uh all industries.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested in your take on this because I really think that uh where we are in terms of a complex sales game is is at a bit of a crossroads.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think we're overall, I think we're coming on technology that's gonna be disruptive in a way once we get way down the funnel, like a chat GPT and others.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the ones that are really performing well are starting to really perform well at the top of a funnel.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So they're involved in the strategic conversations, they have the right training, they're investing in the right training, they're investing in the right people, they're simplifying their tech stacks, but that's where the conversations for the people that are differentiating themselves are going is the ones that are at the top of can have that strategic conversation at the top of the funnel instead of being stuck down at the end, essentially where people are fighting over, you know, uh website leads and scraps.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So are you seeing that same thing as the market shifts in Australia?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that happening there as well?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, look, I mean, there's still you know, the the industry that I'm in here, uh which is you know, manufacturing, construction, uh, building materials, is it's they definitely, and it's keeping me in a job.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying that in the nicest possible way.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But business owners and sales leaders haven't invested in in sales training and development and tech.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's you know, it's pretty well been, and I was talking to someone about this the other day, it's been pretty well old school.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, I say I don't say that in the bad way either, but it's you know, things have changed and the companies haven't kept up with it.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the great dividing range is there now where you know a lot of salespeople have been getting jobs because they've got industry experience.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then they turn up and business owners and sales leaders are expecting miracles where they're that new salesperson is going to fix all their problems.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But nine times out of ten, they won't.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, it it's really, and I think what you're saying about the top of funnel there, you're right.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, at the end of the day, if you if you're just throwing anyone in uh and then they're not qualified and because you don't know what sort of type of client you're looking for to start with, or maybe that's changed.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then all of a sudden it's it's sitting in there, so it looks like there's opportunities in the pipeline, but they're not moving because without disrespect, the sales leader or the owner or the salesperson doesn't actually know how to move it anymore because they've never been taught.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably the biggest part.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I even look back to when I was managing a team of, you know, excuse me, 18 people, is that yeah, our pipelines were clogged as well.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I totally admit that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, you're trying to juggle so many balls when you're running a sales team, it's that's the biggest hurdle, is that as you know, once someone's in there for so long and they're just sitting there and they're not moving, well, then it's pretty well dead.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, you've because you've probably got the wrong type of client in there anyway.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're not even getting any next step commitments.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think definitely, you know, what I know now, and I'm not saying I I learn every day.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like that's why I'm read that's why I'm reading the book, man.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm learning every day because I love it.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but I think a lot of salespeople have hung the boots up on on uh on learning and their their development.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why um things have sort of got to change because you can't just expect that again when COVID hit.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of companies that had been struggling for a fair while boomed because you could pretty well sell anything.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you had it, you're gonna sell it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: But that those days are again starting to to dry up a little bit.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, and I think I I think that uh people that are really, really investing in that talent training right now are are uh and so you're I think you're the perfect spot.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Glad you're working there, glad you're uh working with OMG and with membrane and uh diving into these companies.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're gonna help take a lot of them forward.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know you already are, but um how do people find you, Jason, if uh if they if they want to get a hold of you?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm uh well, I'm on the uh membrane partner website.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got my landing page there.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me there uh or on LinkedIn.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh fairly active on LinkedIn.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And or you can reach out to Paul and uh yeah, he'd be uh happy to pass on my my contacts again.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: I do love working with the membrane team.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: A huge shout out to to yourself and uh and Nate.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of work with the webinars and also Marky and Jen.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And even Henrik's been uh chipping away with some uh some help with me uh trying to develop some new things so for my clients.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I as I said, I really value uh the partnership that we've got.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's what really drives me to help my clients as well, is being able to introduce them to new technology and new areas that can really help their business.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and when I say really help their business, I mean fast track their business like a lot, you know what I mean?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's easy for people to get caught up and I'm too busy to do this, I'm too busy to do that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's where we help.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we take that off your off your shoulders.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to integrate a new CRM and if you want to build some really good processes and systems, well, we can help you do that.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to, it's not all on your shoulders, you know what I mean?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the part that I love about membranes, like, okay, we're now you're now part of the family, and we're gonna and we're gonna help you get better.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I said I I really appreciate um what you guys do for me.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate the heck out of you too, man.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I um and I it would love working with you.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love the fact that we get to talk Aussie foot footy, so you're gonna have to send me that that video, or at least a couple, so I know the rules a little bit.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I felt terrible.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot, I feel terrible.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot Josh Dakos' num name because that's terrible.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, no, Josh and Nick Dacos, man.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll show you some footy footage.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: You'll love it, Paul.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do appreciate it been really good to catch up with you, and uh yeah, and obviously I met you uh met you guys over in Boston as well, so that was pretty cool.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: That was awesome.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was awesome, loved it, and can't wait till next year.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, uh any final words of sales wisdom for anybody that's listening?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Be in the moment, be a good listener.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, stop talking so much.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Use uh always say use pauses and silence to your advantage.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Ask a good question, go silent and uh and listen, because I think a lot of opportunities pass that salespeople are not in the moment, and and that that is my biggest area for improvement.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I've always had a very active mind.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and sometimes it's raced off, and sometimes it's caused me some issues.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be the number one.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, just just try and help people.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just selling because you need the commission, well, then you got a problem.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Stay in the moment, listen hard, help people.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love it, Jason.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing all three, and I really appreciate the time.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody, with that, we are going to close out the art and science of uh complex sales today.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Keep shining bright and have an amazing day wherever you are.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Talk soon.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Olibus, thank you.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening to the art and science of complex sales.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is sponsored by Membrane and our partners from around the globe.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Here at Membrain, we believe that B2B sales is at a crossroads.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Due to decades of quantity-based prospecting, information overload, and really a shift towards efficiency over service and pitching over leadership in sales, customers are saying enough is enough.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're tuning out average performers and choosing to take most of the buying journey on their own.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: This results in up and down sales results, forecasts that are all over the place, and salespeople that are half committed due to the fact that they're having poor results and they have an inability to truly connect with customers.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: We believe the road successful companies are taking to combat this is threefold.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, training to create leaders and executives across all areas of the team with strong habits and sales methodologies that bring value.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, technology.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Technology that focuses and helps a salesperson succeed and reinforces great habits rather than wasting their time on filling out fields for reporting or wasting their time on spamming customers that have no interest in ever buying.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Third, talent.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking about talent that's empowered and emboldened to make a difference for the customers and their companies.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: So where are you on that journey?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Membrane and our network of partners across the globe are here to help and to elevate the sales profession.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: We streamline critical technology by combining CRM, training and enablement, and more into one seamless platform.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: We drive best in class methodologies through our partners.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: They provide the top thought leadership methodologies and resources from across the globe.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And our collective efforts are dedicated to recruiting, training, coaching, and empowering and measuring the habits of the top teams in the world to ensure success.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Join us at membrane.com to learn more.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you so much for listening.