Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #77 – Referral Marketing Systems for Law Firms with Delisi Friday

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#77 – Referral Marketing Systems for Law Firms with Delisi Friday · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

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  SPEAKER_00: Former clients is your low-hanging fruit.
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  SPEAKER_00: They can absolutely be referring you business,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they forget to refer you business because they forget about you.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's on us to stay top of mind.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's totally on us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Short strategies, sweet success.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone.
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  SPEAKER_01: And welcome.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to sharp strategy, sweet success.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Tiffany Swadenski.
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  SPEAKER_01: And today we have Delisi Friday.
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  SPEAKER_01: I first met Delisi Friday several years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: She came to a few GLM events and followed her career.
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  She started out working for a law firm and then went on to work
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  with RJ Robbins for a few years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then she started her own company and became a fractional CMO.
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  SPEAKER_01: which is really exciting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Her company name is First Call Friday, and she's here with me today.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to turn it over to her to finish out her introduction.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hi, thanks for having me.
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  Yes,
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  I have worked in the legal industry for 20 years because my dad
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  is a trial lawyer.
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  So my first job at 14 was answering phones in a criminal
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  defense law firm.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I love lawyers.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love this industry.
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  Worked in-house for Michael Cowan of Cowan Rodriguez Peacock
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  for seven years.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then went to go be chief of staff to Arjun Robbins,
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  who is the owner and serial entrepreneur who created How to
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  Manage a Small Law
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  SPEAKER_00: Firm.
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  And I learned all about the operations and the business side of
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  How to Manage a Small Law Firm.
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  And was reminded how much I love referral marketing and wanted
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  to just decide to do
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  SPEAKER_00: this for myself.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I started First Call Friday, February of 2025.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just celebrated my one-year anniversary this week.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I did it.
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  And I love it because all I do is talk to lawyers all day long
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  about referral marketing and
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's my passion.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I guess we're similar in that we talk to lawyers all day.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's a lifestyle for sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know that about your background.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you started out answering the phones at a law firm.
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  I imagine that gave you just like an amazing crash course on
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  the whole intake process.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, can you talk a little bit about that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, what'd you bring with you from childhood to legal marketing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, that experience made me who I am today.
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  SPEAKER_00: My dad does criminal defense and PI.
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  SPEAKER_00: He does other things as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when I started at 14 answering phones at his law firm,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had to learn etiquette answering the phone,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  I also had to learn how to listen to people because when people
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  call intake and
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  SPEAKER_00: they're calling a law firm,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're calling on like their worst day ever.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was a kid.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had to learn how to respond to that.
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  But the reason why it was so instrumental and who I became and
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  why I love this
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  industry is because my dad has built his law firm all on
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  referral marketing and one
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  SPEAKER_00: church ad first.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's done since I was a kid.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's my dad's marketing.
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  So everything that I train lawyers on,
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  I've done it since I was 14 years old.
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  SPEAKER_00: When I tell lawyers all of them can create referral networks,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's because I'm teaching them to do the things I had to learn at 14.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so...
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  SPEAKER_00: That experience was eye opening.
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  SPEAKER_00: It made me who I am,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it also made me realize the importance of intake too,
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  SPEAKER_00: because intake is like the face of your law firm.
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  Intake's that first example someone has of what it would be
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  like to work with your law firm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate intake so much more because I was intake.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was that person.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you talk about referral marketing, which is super, super important.
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  And it's so overlooked because in my experience,
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  you know,
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  a law firm hires a marketer.
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  SPEAKER_01: If they went to college for marketing,
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  SPEAKER_01: they learned a lot about how to market for a big business,
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  but so much of marketing for a small business is like
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  networking and referrals.
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  So are you talking to law firms who you have to convince
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  referral marketing is a part of it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Or are most people coming to you already there?
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  SPEAKER_01: They know they need to get better at referral marketing?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's actually both.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have some people who come to me and they start off by saying, look,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who you are or what you do,
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  but I want to ask you a lot of questions because it sounds like
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  I should probably
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  SPEAKER_00: be doing referral marketing and do nothing about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, hey, let's go on this journey together.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they need convincing, but they also don't know where to start.
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  Then I also talk to people who are doing something about
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  referral marketing,
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  but they need someone to help give them more ideas or to refine
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  what they're doing.
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  And then I reach out to some people and those conversations are
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  very different because they
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  SPEAKER_00: They've done a lot of referral marketing,
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  but they grew their business in a way where there's so many
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  different referral
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  SPEAKER_00: partners,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is the dream,
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  SPEAKER_00: the dream.
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  SPEAKER_00: And those people are ready to hire someone whose job is to maintain those
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  SPEAKER_00: relationships,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is what I used to do in my job at Callan Rodriguez Peacock.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'll help them hire that person and train them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because when you get to that level,
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  SPEAKER_00: you do need someone to help you nurture those relationships,
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  SPEAKER_00: which
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  But yeah,
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  I have to convince people about referral marketing all the
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  time.
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  And sometimes I find that challenge so fun because they will
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  come in very skeptical
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  SPEAKER_00: and they'll say,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: referral marketing,
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  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I need to do it because I have enough business.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'll just ask a few questions like,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: what do you do to stay in touch with your former clients?
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  SPEAKER_00: They can refer you business.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, nothing.
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  SPEAKER_00: What do you do to get people to call your office?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, we do ads.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  what do you do with the ads that are converting into leads and
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  prospects that call
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  SPEAKER_00: your firm,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's not a good fit?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, what happens to those people?
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  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, well, we don't accept it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like...
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  You could make that the beginning of creating a referral
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  network and maximize the
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  money you're already spending on digital if you just create a
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  little process.
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  And when I talk it out,
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  that's when they go from skeptical to understanding.
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  SPEAKER_00: Every time someone calls your law firm, take advantage of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Help them in some way.
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  SPEAKER_00: Don't just say, no, we don't do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Think about the client experience and be a connector.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in return...
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  SPEAKER_00: Create those relationships that can be reciprocal referrals to you.
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  And please,
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  for the love of God,
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  don't forget to keep in touch with former clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  it's my experience that sometimes attorneys can be personally
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  offended when they
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  SPEAKER_01: get like a bad lead.
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  Their intake teams can be offended by it and treat it as though
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  it's a problem.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I try to remind them like,
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  SPEAKER_01: look,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is somebody who like noticed us and called us for help.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you treat them like they're unwanted.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're never going to refer.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're never going to send you cases.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're never going to care.
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  But if you do treat them,
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  some of the law firms,
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  that's how they handle it.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you're the law firm that
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  Takes the call,
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  listens to them,
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  gives them some resources in such a better place for sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: Take ads out of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because when I was a kid answering the phones in my dad's office,
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  SPEAKER_00: we didn't have digital marketing back then.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yes, that ages me, but whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: When that happened,
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  we would still get phone calls for other practice areas that
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  were not on the
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  SPEAKER_00: website.
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  SPEAKER_00: We never advertised it.
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  SPEAKER_00: People just called because they needed help.
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  And they're like,
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  I'm just going to call this law firm and see if they can help
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  me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so whether you run ads or not,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee you if you talk to intake,
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  SPEAKER_00: we'll tell you,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: randomly we'll get a call about this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we don't even advertise it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It happens everywhere.
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  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: The question is, what are you going to do with those phone calls?
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  And what do you want that experience to be every time someone
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  calls your firm?
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  SPEAKER_01: So one question I have for you,
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  because you mentioned you're training marketers for the law
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  firms to help them do
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  SPEAKER_01: what you've done before.
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  SPEAKER_01: What are you looking for in those candidates?
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  SPEAKER_01: Do you have questions specifically that you ask?
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  SPEAKER_01: How are you identifying those people?
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  that has been so fun so i'm doing it for two clients funny
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  enough they're both
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  personal injury because in personal injury there's like so much
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  referrals that can
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  go back and forth so it's two personal injury law firms and
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  what's very interesting
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  to me is you don't need to hire someone who has legal
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  experience for that job you
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  SPEAKER_00: really do not
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  The experience and the skills that person needs to have is the
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  ability to have a
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  SPEAKER_00: conversation with your referral network,
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  SPEAKER_00: the ability to follow up with your referral network,
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  SPEAKER_00: listening,
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  SPEAKER_00: being a good representation of your law firm,
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  SPEAKER_00: and honestly having people skills.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a lot of this stuff can be automated.
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  SPEAKER_00: Don't get me started on AI is going to take our jobs.
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  SPEAKER_00: AI is not going to replace real relationships with people.
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  SPEAKER_00: I promise you that.
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  SPEAKER_00: You posted something the other day about your speech where you're like,
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  SPEAKER_00: AI can't connect like this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, amen.
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  SPEAKER_00: No,
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  SPEAKER_00: AI is not going to replace the person who goes to their office and says,
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  SPEAKER_00: thank you for your referrals.
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  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can I treat your office to lunch this week?
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  SPEAKER_00: That's not replaceable with AI.
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  So the skills we're looking for in a candidate like that are
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  people skills,
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  SPEAKER_00: communication skills,
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  SPEAKER_00: follow-up skills.
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  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting is
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  Sometimes we'll have realtors who are looking at jobs like this
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  because realtors
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  SPEAKER_00: are so good at people skills and they're also great at marketing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this role kind of has both of them intertwined.
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  One of my clients hired someone who used to be the person at a
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  college career.
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  Like who showed the students the campus and talked with them
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  and encouraged them to
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  SPEAKER_00: join and had excellent communication and people skills.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so you don't need someone in legal.
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  You just need someone like me who wants to make a friend
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  everywhere they go and
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  SPEAKER_00: they have good follow up and they're not scared of lawyers.
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel like people are surprised to hear this from me,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I get a lot of attorneys coming out to me,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: who should I hire for my firm?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, do they need technical skills?
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  SPEAKER_01: They need to know how to do websites, blah, blah, blah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think I get that just the nature of my expertise and background.
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  But I still tell them like,
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  you actually don't need somebody who knows how to code or
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  automate.
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  SPEAKER_01: You need somebody who can be personable because
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: any type of community marketing,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you have one marketer,
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  SPEAKER_01: that one marketer is going to do a lot of networking on your behalf.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if you have a team,
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  SPEAKER_01: some somebody is going to be networking,
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  SPEAKER_01: some are going to be doing the technical stuff.
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  But you know,
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  for that first hire,
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  like that person is networking way more than you think.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I tell them,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: don't look for technical skills,
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  SPEAKER_01: look for people skills,
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  SPEAKER_01: look for people who can tell a story and connect with others.
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  SPEAKER_01: And
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a mindset shift for people who just,
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  SPEAKER_01: when they think of marketing,
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  SPEAKER_01: they just think digital or websites or something,
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  SPEAKER_01: SEO.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: hopefully people,
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  I feel like people are really expanding their horizons in terms
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  of like what
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  SPEAKER_01: marketing looks like.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that's important, hopefully.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
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  I mean,
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  do you get like law firms like asking a lot,
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  like,
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  can we incorporate AI into this?
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, let me ask your opinion on this tangent, I guess.
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  SPEAKER_01: But how do you feel about like phone trees?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you feel like law firms should be answering the phones?
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  SPEAKER_00: When you say a phone tree,
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  SPEAKER_00: do you mean like a red Robin where if someone can't answer the phone,
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  SPEAKER_00: someone else goes to it?
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  no like hi or like an automated voice hi thank you for calling
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  x law firm press one
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  if you're a new client press two yeah that kind of thing if
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  this is a video people
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  SPEAKER_00: would just see my face but look there are times where i might be
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  SPEAKER_00: accepting of a phone tree and an automated system like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And those exceptions are someone who is a solo law firm owner.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just them.
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  And they're paying per minute for automated services like that
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  because that's where they're at.
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  I'm okay with that for that person because they're not ready
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  yet to make that hire
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  or they're not ready yet for the back office buddies and real
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  people to answer the
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  SPEAKER_00: phones.
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  SPEAKER_00: If that's where they're at, I'm okay with it.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you're not that person, no.
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  SPEAKER_00: I want them to talk to a real person.
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  I'm a part of a generation that gets really frustrated when I
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  want to talk to a person.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, press one for English.
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  SPEAKER_00: Para dos, Espanol.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're taking the human part out of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to talk to a robot.
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  I now make decisions where I will do business with places that
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  still pick up the
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  SPEAKER_00: phone,
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  SPEAKER_00: that I can still talk to a person.
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  And if I have a problem,
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  it's not a robot because I don't want to talk to a robot.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's my passionate way of saying, Tiffany, I'm not okay with that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, and...
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  SPEAKER_01: I think, I mean, we tend to see our side of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think law firms and their intake teams see their side of it.
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  They're dealing with a ton of people who have a not great grasp
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  on their legal
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  SPEAKER_01: issue,
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  SPEAKER_01: who are over talking or under talking,
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  SPEAKER_01: who are being hostile,
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  SPEAKER_01: who want to speak to an attorney and not them.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're
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  SPEAKER_01: So much thing can happen on those intake calls.
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  And we,
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  we deal with that every day or intake teams deal with that
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  every day.
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  And it's an important not to be numbed by the experience
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  because never forget,
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  like there are people on the other end who have issues that
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  feel very important to
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  SPEAKER_01: them,
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  SPEAKER_01: even,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: admittedly when they're sometimes not.
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  And how you treat them in those first critical moments can make
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  a huge difference.
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  I did like a little case study,
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  like just mystery shopping law firms at random.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I waited until lunch and I called,
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  like I picked a city called all the law firms that were listed
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  in Google business
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  SPEAKER_01: during lunchtime.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all 12 that I called went to voicemail.
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  And I know instinctively,
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  I know the conversations had at every single one of those law
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  firms.
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  It's like,
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  well,
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  what do we do with the phones on lunch break when everyone's on
• 15:05
  lunch break?
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, send it to voicemail.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: We'll call everyone back.
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  SPEAKER_01: But you know, what happens?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: People reach a voicemail.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: They hang up,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I hate leaving voicemails,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: even when I do like calling businesses.
• 15:16
  Cause we've all had that experience where you leave a voicemail
• 15:19
  and nobody ever calls back.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's more common than the opposite.
• 15:23
  And so we tend to forget there are real people on these other
• 15:26
  end of these
• 15:27
  situations who need nurturing and who could love you if you
• 15:31
  give them a good
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: experience.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree with that.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And here's...
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: something I will share that probably my dad will get upset about.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Back in the day, you just described my dad.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was the receptionist who put the phones on, we called it night mode.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: We put it on night mode and we would all go to lunch.
• 15:51
  And I had to make sure I was always back from lunch right on
• 15:54
  time because they
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: couldn't be on night mode longer.
• 15:57
  And I see now that I'm older and now that we have the systems
• 16:03
  available and these
• 16:05
  other options available,
• 16:07
  how we could have lost a lot of business that way.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So to anyone who still puts the phone on night mode,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: like I used to at my dad's office,
• 16:16
  what if one of those phone calls is someone who needs your help
• 16:18
  right now?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: What if one of those phone calls brings you in $5,000, $10,000?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you're PI, $100,000.
• 16:26
  Wouldn't you want to pay the dollar a minute or 30 cents a
• 16:30
  minute or whatever it is
• 16:32
  to have those phone calls just go over for that short amount of
• 16:36
  time to someone who
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: answers the phone?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think more and more people want immediate results.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: They want help right now.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is instant now.
• 16:46
  If you can't answer the phone right away,
• 16:48
  you're going to lose business,
• 16:50
  guaranteed.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: So let me ask you a question about when it comes to referral marketing.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess what marketing channels are you leveraging to reach people?
• 17:02
  Like where are you telling attorneys like this is where you
• 17:04
  need to start or there
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: are teams like this is where you need to start with referral marketing,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: like as much as you want to share?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 17:12
  the first place every single person should start is your
• 17:17
  rejected phone calls,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: your rejected leads.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: No one accepts 100% of the calls that come into their office.
• 17:25
  If they do,
• 17:26
  that's a whole other podcast episode we will not record right
• 17:28
  now.
• 17:29
  But every single call that's not a case that you can accept or
• 17:34
  want to accept
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: because it doesn't match your case acceptance criteria,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Those phone calls should be warm transfers to referral partners.
• 17:43
  Everyone needs to start creating a list of people they can
• 17:46
  refer business to when
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: they're not a right fit.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have someone for a certain practice area, decide to...
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Meet someone in that practice area.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Make the decision to make connections in that practice area.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's something super niche and it's not on your list,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: then train your intake to say,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: this isn't a case that we can help you with.
• 18:13
  And I'm not quite sure the exact attorney to introduce you to,
• 18:17
  which is usually what we do.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: However, I'd love to transfer you to our local bar association.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: They have a lawyer referral program.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if anyone knows who can help you, it's them.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then make the transfer to them still be a resource.
• 18:32
  So everyone should start by creating a list of different
• 18:37
  practice areas and
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: attorneys in those areas to warm transfer those rejected cases.
• 18:44
  And then after that,
• 18:45
  every single person should be keeping in touch with former
• 18:48
  clients.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Former clients is your low-hanging fruit.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: They can absolutely be referring you business,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: but they forget to refer you business because they forget about you.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's on us to stay top of mind.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's totally on us.
• 19:02
  I remember when I worked with Michael Cowan,
• 19:05
  we were 100% referral business.
• 19:09
  We had a referral attorney refer the same client to us a second
• 19:14
  time because they
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: got into a second crash.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you see this in PI.
• 19:17
  You have a small amount of people,
• 19:19
  thankfully,
• 19:19
  but sometimes people get into a second crash.
• 19:23
  And when the client came back to us,
• 19:26
  she said,
• 19:26
  I'm so happy it's you guys.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You guys did great on my case.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we asked her, well, we did so great.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you call the other attorney and not us?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, because I forgot about you.
• 19:40
  The other attorney was doing a great job,
• 19:42
  staying top of mind and marketing.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: that she forgot all about us.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we did the work.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: We handed her the settlement check.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: We did all the things except stay in touch.
• 19:52
  We did all the things except keep in touch with her so she
• 19:55
  could refer us business.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's on us.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's our onus.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So my suggestion is start with your rejected leads.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: No one converts 100% of those phone calls.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Turn that into the beginning of your referral network.
• 20:09
  Second,
• 20:10
  make sure you're doing something to stay in touch with your
• 20:13
  former clients.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to break the bank.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you have the budget, please send out a happy birthday card.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: No one gets happy birthday cards anymore.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a huge fan of direct mail.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Huge fan of direct mail.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to automate it,
• 20:29
  you can create a campaign on handwritten and in an hour or less
• 20:33
  have handwritten
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: cards sent out automated every single month on your behalf.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to do anything else.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Takes less than an hour, a whole year of marketing done for you.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where everyone should start.
• 20:45
  Every single person listening to this podcast should start in
• 20:48
  those two places.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love handwritten.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those programs.
• 20:52
  Like I've talked about it for years and I tell people about it
• 20:55
  and they're like,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: I get kind of mad when they don't think it's as cool as I do.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're not alone.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love them so much.
• 21:03
  I just found out like a month ago,
• 21:06
  you can make birthday cards a campaign.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: This whole time I've been telling my clients,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: don't forget the month birthday cards,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: month birthday cards.
• 21:14
  And I had a call with them and they're like,
• 21:15
  Delisa,
• 21:16
  you can automate it as a campaign.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: You do it one time and it just sends it out.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, you just like unlocked a new level for me.
• 21:24
  Why would no one do that if you can just do it one time and
• 21:28
  your marketing is done for a year?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's like the easiest thing.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not even that expensive.
• 21:34
  You just got to remember to update the message once a year so
• 21:37
  people don't get the
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: same card twice.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's smart.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Part of the reason I love it.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you can just add birthdays to it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's so cool.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what you talked about is so intuitive.
• 21:48
  Like when you think about like what you would want as a
• 21:50
  customer,
• 21:50
  you call a law firm.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I need help.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: My neighbor like drilled a hole in my wall, making up stuff.
• 21:57
  And you call a law firm and they just say,
• 21:59
  hey,
• 22:00
  we can't help you call the bar.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: You should know intuitively that's like a lame experience.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: we're transferring to an external number,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: totally possible,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: easy to do or another law firm.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's so intuitive.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think like some law firms don't do this stuff?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why do you think there's such a gap in this?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because it makes so much sense.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: What's holding people back from doing this stuff?
• 22:26
  First of all,
• 22:27
  I get that question at least every week because I preach it all
• 22:30
  the time.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh, that's so brilliant.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't I do that?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're trained to tell people who to call.
• 22:39
  But I call it the Ritz-Carlton experience because Ritz-Carlton
• 22:44
  does such an
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: excellent job training their people to provide excellent service.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: They don't teach any of this stuff in law school.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: They don't teach any of this stuff to lawyers at CLEs.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: If someone wants to call me to give a CLE presentation,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do this every single week so more people know,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: but they don't teach it.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: They don't talk about it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So honestly, I think part of it is no one else thinks about it.
• 23:09
  The only reason I preach this so much is I am the nerd who did
• 23:13
  this at my last law firm.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also the nerd who said, you know what, what would happen if
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: If we followed up with that person and we said,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Tiffany,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: yesterday we introduced you to the Jones law firm.
• 23:28
  I just want to make sure that you're able to connect with them
• 23:30
  and they were able to help you.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they were?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 23:34
  We're so happy because we want to make sure everyone has a
• 23:38
  great experience at our
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: law firm when they call us,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: even if it means we're putting them in touch with someone else.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: May I ask a favor of you?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: If I sent you a Google link,
• 23:48
  Would you share your experience in a Google review so other
• 23:52
  people are comfortable
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: calling our law firm?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Then you convert it into a Google review.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've done that.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've trained it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: It works.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, you can be so efficient just following up.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell you what, those people remember you.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: I used to get those same people who would call back and be like,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Delisi,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: remember when you put me in touch with blah,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: blah?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my friend also needs someone else.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to send them to you so you can help them.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I became a connector that way.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what all of these law firms can do too.
• 24:23
  I was explaining to a law firm who they were having issues
• 24:27
  getting reviews.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know, we can ask for reviews on intake.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they were just like, well, how would we do that?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I told them like, here, you just ask it like this.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And what you said was better than actually what I said to them,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: but more rehearsed script that you had there.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: But you just say like, hey, you know, help us help other people.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Will you go leave us a Google review?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's that easy.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they, you know, it's hard to do if you're not...
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I guess like inclined to do it or trained to do it.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you feel like,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: cause I asked my husband,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: what would hold you back from asking somebody for a review?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, I don't like begging.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, I could see why some people feel that way.
• 25:06
  But like,
• 25:06
  if you see asking for reviews in the same way my husband does,
• 25:10
  like,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're not going to ask for them.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to get them.
• 25:13
  But the other day I had somebody come pick up some old couches
• 25:15
  here from the house.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a guy who started his own company.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of it,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: he was just like,
• 25:20
  I run my business on Google business and people find me because
• 25:24
  I got the most
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: reviews.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: will you leave me a review on Google business?
• 25:28
  And I mean,
• 25:28
  it was a little more polite than that,
• 25:30
  but I was just like,
• 25:30
  yeah,
• 25:31
  man.
• 25:31
  And I just thought to myself,
• 25:32
  I was like,
• 25:33
  why don't these attorneys do that?
• 25:34
  This guy bought a truck and started a Holloway business and
• 25:38
  it's 100% Google
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: reviews and he just does that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it blows my mind when people overcomplicate it.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think to your point, though, I think it is a mindset thing.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I took Sandler training for like a few months, many, many years back.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a Sandler method where I'm not good at sales.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a decent marketer, but I am not good at sales.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just not.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I took the Sandler sales training to try and help me be better.
• 26:07
  And one of the things they taught me that felt better for me
• 26:10
  because I don't like
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: to ever seem aggressive was
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: is they said, talk to someone and ask them as a way to help you.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, well, what do you mean?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the way it was described is ask them as if they're helping you.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if they took this action, it would be a kind thing.
• 26:31
  So I took that training and I used the same kind of script I
• 26:35
  just did with you live
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: on the podcast,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: but I changed it to intake.
• 26:40
  And so if I ever had someone in intake who was like,
• 26:43
  ooh,
• 26:43
  Delisi,
• 26:44
  I don't know.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You want me to call a rejected case and ask them for a Google review?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, okay.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to help you use this line.
• 26:53
  Tiffany,
• 26:54
  if I sent you a Google review,
• 26:56
  would you mind leaving a review of your experience?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's really unfortunate.
• 27:02
  There are a lot of people out there that get scared about
• 27:04
  calling law firms and
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: they think we're really mean and we're not approachable.
• 27:09
  And it would help us so much if you explained your experience
• 27:13
  so people aren't
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: scared or intimidated to call us.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that line worked a lot.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just a mindset shift.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're not asking them like, hey, I want these Google reviews.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Help me do great things.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you do.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of it.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: But also sharing that helps them feel like, wow.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know what?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm now helping Tiffany.
• 27:35
  I am now helping her business and changing the thoughts that
• 27:39
  calling law firms is
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: scary if I leave this review.
• 27:42
  And that motivation helps people leave the Google review
• 27:46
  because they feel good about it.
• 27:47
  And someone wants to do something and they get this positive
• 27:51
  feeling after like,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I did that and I helped them.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those counterintuitive principles of persuasion, which is
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you can get people to do you a favor,
• 28:00
  they will feel like you will be indebted to them and will do a
• 28:04
  favor for them in
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: the future.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of the base principle of it.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds counterintuitive, like, oh, you mean to sell myself?
• 28:12
  And when we're talking about getting a Google review,
• 28:14
  it is like a micro sale,
• 28:15
  right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're selling the idea of a Google review or leaving a Google review.
• 28:22
  So like when it's low stakes like that and we're asking them to
• 28:26
  do us a favor,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: people actually want to do other people's favor.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another thing.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: People want to help other people.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly if you're an individual and you're not like the company,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: that's why those review requests you get automated texts don't work,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because as well, because there's no human being attached to it.
• 28:46
  There's not that kind of social exchange that we're doing
• 28:49
  where,
• 28:49
  hey,
• 28:50
  will you do me a favor?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: As an individual, you can do that.
• 28:53
  But as a corporation or a small business or a brand,
• 28:56
  no,
• 28:56
  it doesn't work like that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that's a really good point.
• 29:00
  And I mean,
• 29:01
  getting reviews is like so critical on all levels of running a
• 29:06
  business these days.
• 29:07
  And it's just so important to talk about and train your team on
• 29:10
  how to do it,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: like training your team and giving your team sales training.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like too many law firms are in the position where,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: they haven't yet realized they need a full-time intake person.
• 29:21
  So before we even get to the point where you're consistently
• 29:24
  getting a bunch of
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: reviews,
• 29:26
  you need somebody in that post on the phones doing the things
• 29:31
  that we're talking
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: about.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about referrals.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about reviews, a little bit about sales training and intake.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love your background.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I probably knew that at some point,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: but relearning it like,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: cause like my early experience was on the phones for my mom's hair salon.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I got my early sales training and experience.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I still lean on that.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: But much lower stakes than answering the phones for a law firm as a kid.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty tough.
• 30:02
  But is there anything that you wanted to talk about here on the
• 30:05
  podcast that we didn't go over?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I think is really important is...
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I hear a lot of attorneys who say,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I already network when I talk about referral marketing.
• 30:17
  And I think there's this misconception if you're networking,
• 30:24
  you're doing referral marketing.
• 30:27
  I think the other part of this is making sure you're networking
• 30:31
  in the right places.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are you in the right rooms with the right people?
• 30:35
  And how often are you assessing whether those rooms and those
• 30:40
  networking events has
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: turned into business?
• 30:43
  There have been so many times where I'll talk to a lawyer and
• 30:46
  they're like,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I go to my local bar association event once a month.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I go to the trial lawyer associations once a quarter.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm doing the things and I'll say,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: who are you meeting at the bar association events?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sit at different tables?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you meet a new person each time?
• 31:04
  Is that the target audience you want when you go to those trial
• 31:08
  lawyer events?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you ever get business out of it?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have relationships that came from that?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we can tie ROI to the things that you're already doing.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And sadly, when I asked that question,
• 31:22
  I get the deer in the headlights and they're like,
• 31:24
  oh,
• 31:25
  I never thought of it like that.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're thinking about doing the actions.
• 31:28
  They feel very happy that they're doing the actions that I'm
• 31:31
  happy because I want
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: them to take action.
• 31:35
  But the other part of all of this is just assessing the actions
• 31:39
  that you're taking.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are they turning into relationships?
• 31:42
  And then are those relationships turning into profitable
• 31:45
  relationships for your law firm?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:47
  Because if you're going to those events for a year or two years
• 31:51
  and nothing has
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: come from it,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: go to different places.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I don't think enough people talk about.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just generally,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a scourge in marketing of people who are like,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing that forever and I'm not getting results from it.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, have you considered doing it differently?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why people get into these funks,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: and you make an excellent point that I'm not sure I've ever thought of,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: which is like,
• 32:15
  if you're an attorney and you go to an event and you meet like
• 32:18
  an associate,
• 32:20
  or another law firm that's like just struggling to get in cases
• 32:23
  like are you
• 32:24
  meeting the types of law firms that are in the position to
• 32:27
  refer you good cases
• 32:28
  like that i mean that's really worth thinking about like
• 32:31
  basically are you meeting
• 32:32
  the right people i'm guilty of this i need to join some sort of
• 32:35
  mastermind myself
• 32:36
  but it's a good reason why law firm owners should join
• 32:40
  mastermind groups and
• 32:41
  sometimes multiples because you're meeting attorneys who are
• 32:45
  also concerned with
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: intakes sales reviews
• 32:49
  And they're in a better position to refer you cases than the
• 32:54
  guy down the street
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: who has had a small law firm for a long time.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's about meeting the right kind of referral sources.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's such an excellent point.
• 33:03
  Well,
• 33:03
  Delisi,
• 33:04
  thank you so much for being on the podcast with me and talking
• 33:07
  with us today.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you want people to go find you and learn more about you?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I am very active on LinkedIn.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So please follow me and connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 33:17
  If you want to learn more about what I'm doing,
• 33:19
  you can visit my website,
• 33:21
  firstcallfriday.com.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Look into any of the services I provide on there if you have questions.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: But LinkedIn, I am a huge fan of LinkedIn.
• 33:31
  I believe all lawyers,
• 33:33
  if they want referral business,
• 33:34
  should be on LinkedIn.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: So LinkedIn.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much again.
• 33:40
  You guys go look her up on LinkedIn and visit her website and
• 33:44
  learn more about her.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks everyone for listening.