Latest / Zero Friction / Cuddlist, Inc: Removing Workplace Friction with Human Connection
Transcript
- Terry Coutsolioutsos: Welcome to Zero Friction. I'm Terry Kuchaluchis, founder of RevRx AI. Today's episode is about a friction point most of us never think about, and one that science says is quietly impacting our personal and professional lives at scale, human touch. My guest is Keely Shoop, CEO of Cudlist, and the platform is setting the highest standard for consent-based client-led touch. Cudlist has been featured in the New York Times, Glamour, and Cosmo. And Keely has been building a practice in this space 2015. This is about what happens when we remove the friction between people and the connection they actually need. So Keely, welcome to Zero Friction. And why don't you kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and Cuddlist. Keeley Shoup: Certainly. Thank you so much for having me on, Terry. I'm really excited to chat with you. I have been in private practice doing cuddle therapy work or professional cuddling for 10 years, for over 10 years now. And couple ago, after following the from its inception, ⁓ purchased Cuddlist and run Cuddlist, which trains and certifies folks in modality and also provides a membership service for them so that they're entrepreneurs. ⁓ they have unique needs in that realm and so we give them a lot of support, we give them a lot of resources so that they can keep their practice sustainable. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Well, that's awesome. So tell me about what Cutlass is actually doing in the marketplace today. So your customers are, companies, they're people. So tell me a little bit how you engage your audience. Keeley Shoup: Yeah, it's interesting. customers are the practitioners themselves, right? But we're serving a lot of different populations because we are connecting our customers, the practitioners, ⁓ the broader community. And we're connecting companies with people who can support them. ⁓ so Cuddlist's responsibility, what we feel as our responsibility, is a lot of public education. ⁓ ⁓ first and foremost. for our practitioners, very quality education around connection, around the physiology of touch, and around that piece that is unseen. And that piece that is unseen is around communication. And that communication piece often involves boundaries and consent, which can be buzzwords, it can also be scary words, but we make them actually really lovely. And so that's a lot of what we're doing in the world. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Well, how do you make those buzzwords a little more elegant? How do you make people feel more comfortable just around the aspect of consensual touch, right? How does that sort of transpire? Keeley Shoup: Mm-hmm. you We demystify a lot of it. We take a lot of the scary out of it. of the things that we often love to say is that ⁓ a no is an invitation for better connection. Always. It's never a rejection. And ⁓ how utilize that in space is by celebrating what the questions are and what people's responses are. A very simple one. it can, I want to invite anyone to try this in their worlds, ⁓ but simple thing that we can teach is when you greet someone would you like a hug a handshake or a smile? And I often say that with you know a little cheeky grin and see what people say and oftentimes people see that as a very very engaging entry point into connection like oh Well, I have choices now. I wonder what I'll choose, right? And we make it more approachable. That way, everyone has what is actually feeling comfortable for them. We've got all, I work with a of neurodivergent folks. And sometimes just the smile might be where they're comfortable, especially if they're in a new space. If they're meeting brand new people, handshake might be social convention and might feel really comfortable for other people. ⁓ a hug might feel a little too formal. And some people, I know you know them in your personal world, I'm sure, they're the huggers, ⁓ ⁓ Terry Coutsolioutsos: Yes. Right. Keeley Shoup: ones that are there, the ones who are going to just absolutely give a big bear hug to anyone. We want to embrace those folks too. So it's little pieces like that that make that not scary, but make it a point of connection. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Well, that's awesome because it also provides some empowerment on the other side of it too. And I think that you brought it up. The choice is a wonderful thing. And so that leads me to another question So tell me a little bit about the science behind touch and ⁓ what does mean? And, you know, how does that impact our lives? Not only those that are getting touched, but ⁓ that are providing the touch as well. Keeley Shoup: ⁓ What's happening in the body? So what's happening in the body with that is it's decreasing cortisol. If people are familiar with cortisol, that's the stress hormone. Right? Having oxytocin in your system, oxytocin is produced when we touch another person, handhold, hug, that decreases cortisol, it boosts our immune system, it lowers our blood pressure, it's really wonderful for a lot of our physiological well-being, ⁓ it helps us regulate our nervous system. Terry Coutsolioutsos: like. And it sounds like oxytocin is a wonderful drug, right? ⁓ It really kind brings a lot of energy to. Keeley Shoup: Yeah, absolutely. I will have people leaving a space after a really, really quality session or quality time and we'll need to have a few minutes, right? Like here have a glass of water because they might feel a little floaty and they're and technically their reaction times might be a little bit slower because of the different parts of the brain that are activated. So it does feel a little, you know, you feel a little buzzed off of a really great, a really great hug session. So yeah, absolutely. Terry Coutsolioutsos: gears just a tad bit. And let's go into an area that might be under explored. Really is taking the workplace ⁓ angle. ⁓ I have a lot of followers on the LinkedIn network that are are human resource professionals. They're all involved in some sort of ERG program or diversity inclusion program. Keeley Shoup: Mm-hmm. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Because when you brought up the neurodivergent population, I just wanted to say, when you look at neurodivergent workforce conversation, it has a lot of accommodation checklists and things like that. What are you describing? What can you describe to me about neurodivergent workforce and how your therapy can actually lead to a more better professional work style, life environment, a better workplace? Keeley Shoup: Okay. Terry Coutsolioutsos: not only for the neurodivergent employee, also for rest of the workforce population as well. Keeley Shoup: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about the physiology of how ⁓ the physiological effects of how positive touch can be for the body. But the core of what we teach and some of the communication tools and kind of the philosophy behind this modality is way more than that. It actually has way more to do with ⁓ connection and interaction. so ⁓ of the most fundamental philosophies of the work that I do is every person does not need to be fixed. And that's going to be really relevant when we talk about neurodivergent folks, because a lot of neurodivergent folks will walk through the world and be very consistently trying to mask or fix themselves to fit the existing molds. And that can be a lot of effort. That can be exhausting. That can be overwhelming. That can lead to burnout. And ⁓ we do instead, especially in even just in the micro experience of a cuddle session, right, we start the premise. What if nothing is wrong with you? What if how you naturally interact with the world, we just presume that's correct. So now what do we need to do to change your environment to fit that? And that as a premise and ⁓ as a foundational concept is empowering. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Mm-hmm. Keeley Shoup: And it is wildly beneficial for people to have more sustainability in the workforce and in their lives, in their relationships, more comfort, more joy, more happiness. We talk about workplace satisfaction. We talk about life fulfillment, life satisfaction. If you're starting from the premise that I can adjust my world and my surroundings to myself and that it's not harming anyone, it's not inconvenience, any money, we're just finding the Venn diagram overlap. Right? Just to put it in those terms. We're finding where things match. Then that can be a very, very, man, it can open up a lot of doors. Terry Coutsolioutsos: So if you're the VP of HR or you're the Chief Human Resource Officer, would you engage them and consult with them in terms of making the entire workforce a little more inclusive? I think inclusive is a wonderful word, right? It really is a great action verb. ⁓ And how do we build these inclusivities into the workforce environment? How can people like you ⁓ and Cuddlist therapists Like help companies be more productive with their neurodivergent workforce, be more productive with other ERGs that might have other impacts and positive effects from a cuddle type therapy. Tell me a little bit about how you might engage and consult them with those things. And like what are the things that you're looking for too, by the way? Let's just start here. would be the things that you would be diagnosing to understand for them? What would be their friction points in their HR world ⁓ you might help them diagnose first? and then provide solutions for a second. Keeley Shoup: Yeah, how are you treating the people like people first? Right? If we are operating under the premise that people who are really invested in, ⁓ with, and excited about where they work, the company that they work for, the work that they are doing, are going to be wildly more efficient for your company. They're going to be so cost effective because the output is incredible. Their satisfaction is like, if we start from that premise, right, then the cost of adjusting their experience really is pennies compared to what is going to be the result. And so it's partially looking at the practical nuts and bolts solution. Okay, how's this environment for your neurodivergent clients? In terms of sensory input, right, we can even just look at the sensory input of a space. We can talk about their ⁓ styles. So how are their communication styles? with other people how oftentimes direct communication is going to be so much more for neurodivergent folks. It's going to maybe for some, not a monolith, right, but for some it's going to feel more natural. So how do we embrace that without ⁓ it cold, without finding it harsh, without finding it ⁓ in the workplace, you know. So all kinds of practical things, but fundamentally the thing that we can identify that that you don't have to identify all the individual streams and individual things, but it's that core founding philosophy of how is your company living that value and how is it permeating every everything that you do. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Right? And then what do you do to help them sort of build around that once you've discovered those things? Keeley Shoup: come back to the question all the time. You get curious about the same people and what's the connection? What is the place that we can meet as not as a company and pardon the phrase, not as a company and a cog, right? But as two people. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Right. Keeley Shoup: How do you always come back to that connection point of what's your authentic experience here? I actually do want to know without ego, without my own ego coming into it, and then what can I meet you in? There's capacity is a thing, that's totally fine, but where can we meet? And there's a whole lot more that can happen in that space when we're treating every individual their own uniqueness and finding the connection points. Terry Coutsolioutsos: So what do think the implications are if after going through discovery and taking inventory of your employee population and discovering that there are some opportunities, what are the implications of just ignoring them? Like from a workforce productivity perspective, from a workforce enjoyment perspective, what you seen like of just ignoring the situation? Keeley Shoup: Easiest one to stay off the top of my head is high turnover. We all know that it takes exponential more to train someone brand new from the ground up. Like turnover is huge. That's ⁓ for company, my personal company, we're small. ⁓ We've a great team. It's a small but the people who are here currently, we've had for years. We almost have non-existent turnover until unless someone grows into a cool new life phase. And that's the reason that they leave. We've had people say, I've got this incredible life-changing event coming up, and I might have this life-changing opportunity, and we're so excited. Or people will go off to build families in different ways and And so we're so thrilled. And the core team, it doesn't change. And so bringing people into that has been delightful. ⁓ And bring a sense ⁓ of... I'll give an example. When we are working, one of the funny things that comes up when we bring a new person in is they're like, well, I'm really worried about stepping on someone's toes. I don't want to step on someone's toes. And we have such a culture in our workplace of that's not possible. That's really not possible. If you have something to contribute, I'm going to value that contribution. There might be reasons why we can't implement that thing, because if you're not in that department or if you're not in that area, there could be some extraneous things that you're not familiar with, right, if it's new to you, but there's no such thing as stepping on toes. Contribution is contribution, and we're grateful for it, and we're gonna value it. And so there's a different way of valuing each individual person, and the things that come out of that is that now you've got a different innovation for, you've got now ⁓ life injected in different ideas. Well, because someone in a whole other team was like, well hey, I was listening to you guys talk about that, and have you tried this? And the people who are real focused in on the problem, ⁓ Terry Coutsolioutsos: Right. Keeley Shoup: have the tunnel vision, now have another perspective. When everyone's valued for all of their contribution, then it's a very different experience. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Gotcha. Well, that's aligned with that. So let's ⁓ position a little bit. That's great little framework from a corporate perspective. ⁓ So me about Cutlass. You must have a vision and a North Star. ⁓ You've about reshaping how global health care supports this And it's a great ambition. What does the path look like? for Cuddlist as it begins to sort of continue to mature and develop and impact more people. Keeley Shoup: The hope is that it can come right alongside modalities that are already really well known, well known ⁓ ⁓ to hear about. Like ⁓ I partner with talk therapists ⁓ my clients, ⁓ we work in something called the triadic model ⁓ ⁓ more holistic care. ⁓ when people get more holistic care and they get the big picture and they get ⁓ this, they get a team ⁓ for them. ⁓ and they feel really valued, they show up in the world differently. And that's what I want for this company. I want the philosophies of it, the connection of it to spread so that the world has more of it. I think the world needs more of it. The world needs more authentic connection. It needs more connection that feels really good. Surgeon General says we're in a loneliness epidemic. This is an antidote to that. my hope is that it continues to grow ⁓ well beyond me. ⁓ Terry Coutsolioutsos: Right. how does it grow beyond you? Like, are the, what are the, do you have plans for growth or are you just sort of, ⁓ know, is it word of mouth? Is it sort of, you know, like a bootstrap opportunity ⁓ Keeley Shoup: My hope is that it does grow well beyond me because I'm one person and our plan for growth is to have even more capacity to train more of our practitioners to be doing this work really well in the world and then they grow to be incredible practitioners and run their own businesses. We have some of our practitioners running additional schools. Here's a thing that I think is going to turn some heads, especially since I'm not as plugged into the centralized corporate world. maybe a lot of your listeners, but it's maybe a good outside perspective to offer. I have competition ⁓ in fellow practitioners. I have colleagues. I have people who are also supporting this work. And so ⁓ some of colleagues and friends and practitioners who have gone through my training are now creating trainings of their own. And I am my best to cross promote their trainings. ⁓ A lot of would have the opinion or ⁓ potentially have the that that is a competitor coming up. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Right. Keeley Shoup: I don't want to a competitor, but I don't feel that way. ⁓ I find it always brings back tenfold ⁓ when am in community ⁓ with people. They're going to continue to bring people back to the training that they originally got and valued, and if they're doing something that's incredible, ⁓ I other people to have more resources for them. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Mm-hmm. Right. That's great. a, know, your Cutlist is a network and a community in itself is sort of the mainstay of the premise for it. And it's great that they have a resource for training, a resource for networking and a resource for collaborating. Keeley Shoup: Go. are international, so we've got folks in Australia, in the UK, in Canada, ⁓ got folks ⁓ of different places. It is predominantly centralized in the United States and got quite a few people on both coasts. We've got ⁓ a of people throughout Central North and we're growing all the time, which is kind of lovely. Terry Coutsolioutsos: I think that, you know, the important fact is that you're touching people, ⁓ helping people feel more comfortable around a wide array of things. And we just talked about the neurodivergent component ⁓ What other types of ⁓ situations you can help provide a positive impact for as well? Keeley Shoup: Yeah. It really spans quite a lot. know predominantly in my practice, my private practice, not necessarily the Cuddlist ⁓ but in my own private practice, my populations that I serve are narrative virtue folks or the queer community and people in transition or if they've had a loved one pass. So grief and loss. If ⁓ you imagine, right, like that reaction was really appropriate. You can imagine how Terry Coutsolioutsos: Mmm. Wow, yes. Yeah. Keeley Shoup: important this work, that kind of care and nurturance can be for dealing with grief and loss. also navigate and support ⁓ of assault. There's of really deep work. And then I have colleagues ⁓ who serving different like veterans and elder care. I've got some who specialize ⁓ in like relationship so divorce or breakups. Some people are really in that ⁓ helping with relational So they don't want to do rebound, they don't want to go to bar culture, they're really not interested in that. They want actual ⁓ fulfilling connection they're trying to ⁓ a way to heal from ⁓ relationship transition of that and into one that will hopefully last a little bit more fulfilling. ⁓ Terry Coutsolioutsos: Well, that's pretty cool and that really kind of opens the conversation up quite a bit actually. You know, I hadn't even thought about your transitioning from losing a loved one and that probably has a huge impact on people. ⁓ Personally, professionally, anxiety, depression, all those things that go along with, you know, an unproductive lifestyle. So, ⁓ wow, very cool. But... Keeley Shoup: Okay. Terry Coutsolioutsos: So before we close, just want to cover a couple things with the audience that they can take away with the friction mental health is just not access to therapy, but it's picking the right therapy to fix the right modality problems. Right. So, and I think, as you said, Cuddlist really has a unique offering where, you know, it's it's a, it's a pretty interesting new space. it definitely is an alternative to other things and it can be very powerful. ⁓ we talked about this, power of millions of people that are impacted by neurodivergency, ⁓ whether it's a transition in lifestyle, whether it's a transition from ⁓ a loved one, know, people processing loss, that missing link is very somatic, it's physical, and is science that backs up this type of therapy. Secondly, ⁓ you know, consent and customization is not a soft concept. And you and I talked about like, that's an awkward, you know, sort of discussion to have, especially in a corporate environment. You know, can understand where, you know, that's sort of an awkward phase with the, the word of touch, right? But you've found a way to break through that and make everybody feel comfortable with it, which is a wonderful thing. what Cutlass has built around this client led boundaries in your practice is the reason why you know, other professionals can trust it and that's why your clients come back and return. This is a business principle as much as it is a therapeutic one. And thirdly and lastly, the workplace opportunity is real. It is very, very real. for those of you that are HR professionals or active in their diversity inclusion groups in the corporate world. ⁓ it's a great opportunity that you probably have untapped. And so if you're a people leader, a benefits manager, an HR leader, or an ARG sponsor, you can still use these types of touch deprivations as a personal problem rather than an organizational one. And so if you want to leave the bad retention behind, improve productivity and efficiency and the well-being of your people, this is a great angle to take. So Keely, this has been a genuinely eye-opening conversation. glad that you've built Cuddlist. It's a great ⁓ to ⁓ eyes across the and corporate world. And it's exactly a nice unique thing to somebody from the margins of the mainstream into the fringes. And so that work really matters and thank you. So anyone listening ⁓ or you're a therapist looking to add a complimentary modality to your offering, a benefits an ERG leader, Keely, what's the way for them to get a hold of Keeley Shoup: Yeah, is welcome to email me at keelyshoep at gmail.com. But I've also got my website, which is my name as well. And then ⁓ if looking for someone maybe a little bit more local. Now I am in Chicago and Los Angeles and San but I also travel anywhere. But if they're to look for someone local, they can go to cuddle list.com. You can find me there. You can find lots of people who are near you to to be different of support, support that has a lot of robust education. around how do you get access to this really important human quality that is physical touch at the degree that is comfortable for, authentically comfortable for each person. It's not about making everyone more touchy, it's about finding your own authentic access point to whatever level is right for you. Terry Coutsolioutsos: Keely, thank you so much. really appreciate your time today. It is a great topic and I look forward to seeing our followers and our listeners engage you. Keeley Shoup: Thank you so much. I'm so glad that we got to chat today.