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The Inside View: Learnings From A Practice Manager · No Appointment Necessary

• 0:00
  Michael: So today we have a very special and different kind of no appointment necessary episode.
• 0:06
  Michael: Today we've got a practice manager on the show, which I really wanted to do because I think you can get a lot of insight from what happens behind the scenes and what your practice manager thinks um rather than just listening to the clinic owner thinks all the time.
• 0:20
  Michael: Welcome to Anne, I've known wow, six years, seven years COVID times.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Indeed.
• 0:27
  Michael: Back in the days of COVID, we're also both German, although I don't sound it, she does.
• 0:31
  Michael: But I think Anna will be brilliant to give us a little bit of insight from inside the clinics.
• 0:36
  Michael: Anne, do you want to introduce yourself?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so my name is Anna.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I um have been working as a practice manager in sort of private physiotherapy clinics since the beginning of 2020.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, was very new to the industry at the time, but um have learned a lot over the years, and I think that's probably why I'm here today.
• 0:54
  Michael: It is.
• 0:54
  Michael: And and what were you doing just before?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, uh quite a varied background, to be honest with you.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: I started off back in Germany.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I went into teaching, so I studied at university to become a teacher, and then as I was moving to the UK, I realized I didn't really want to be a teacher here at secondary school level and found a passion in applied linguistics, so changed course a little bit, went into academics, basically with the dream to become a lecturer at university one day in applied linguistics.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: But then lots of things happened and I ended up doing all sorts of other things, working in sort of training coordination at a business school, then ventured into operations management there, um, and eventually worked in hospitality in management as well, before ending up as a practice manager.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, quite a quite a journey over the years.
• 1:43
  Michael: So it's it was interesting for me when I first got into the industry because my mind was sort of blown by some of the things that I saw.
• 1:50
  Michael: What was your first impression?
• 1:52
  Michael: If you can remember back, being really objective.
• 1:54
  Michael: I remember, for example, one thing that physios charge different appointment prices for a first initial and follow-up um uh appointment.
• 2:02
  Michael: It blew my mind.
• 2:03
  Michael: I was like, no one else does this, and I think we've changed that for a lot of clinics now.
• 2:08
  Michael: But that I remember that blowing my mind.
• 2:10
  Michael: And also I remember one saying, Oh, you should buy this, it'll make money.
• 2:12
  Michael: And they said, Yeah, but forget the money.
• 2:14
  Michael: What about patient outcomes?
• 2:15
  Michael: And I was like, What?
• 2:16
  Michael: No everyone doesn't care about money.
• 2:18
  Michael: What what about you?
• 2:19
  Michael: Like, what were the things that you saw that blew your mind?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I was so new to the sector that I didn't have any expectations, to be honest with you.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think what fascinated me rather than sort of blowing my mind was just to see the interaction between the therapists who I I guess my background was the only therapist I'd ever see was an actual doctor in a surgery, in a GP surgery, and God forbid, maybe in a hospital setting.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And private practice was so different.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess I was also very fortunate.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: I started off in a in a very well-established clinic with a lot of therapists, um, and it was quite a family feel.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: And just to see the interaction between the physio, sports therapists, massage therapists, and the patients, it was so warm and and yeah, it felt like you walked into a bit of a family kind of setting.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: That to me was fascinating.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: But what you said, and I do remember you going on about this for a long, long time with the first clinic that I worked at.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: This idea that we're charging more for an initial assessment and then less for a follow-on.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And why is that?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's true that for many years we stuck with that, and it's it's an odd one, it's a conundrum.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: I quite can't to this day explain how we got there and why so many clinics are still at that point.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: The clinic I work at now, we made that move finally earlier this year, and we've got a flat rate now.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Finally.
• 3:42
  Michael: Yeah, I I think it's I think it's because it's difficult to for clinic owners to separate pricing and time.
• 3:49
  Michael: I think that they they view their expertise, not as expertise, but as time.
• 3:55
  Michael: And there's so many examples in the corporate world of where the amount of time you spend is completely irrelevant to the price that you charge, because really it's about expertise.
• 4:04
  Michael: And we see this in in hairdressers, right?
• 4:06
  Michael: If if you want to go and get a haircut as a woman, you can as a woman, because I don't think you can spend 500 quid as a man, I don't know, certainly not with my hair, but um as a woman, you can spend 30 quid on a a trainee new person, and you can spend uh 500 pounds on a stylist creative director or whatever you want to call it, and they will charge you according to their expertise, that it's the same time that they're spending, but it's expertise.
• 4:33
  Michael: And then beyond that, the next appointment you go to, they don't say, Oh, it's it's cheaper this time because we don't have to do an allergy test or we don't have to spend time talking about what you're after.
• 4:43
  Michael: They just roll that in and say, That's our price.
• 4:45
  Michael: And the same goes, you know, it happens in every single industry.
• 4:49
  Michael: And from what I've seen, and for well, it's not just for all the evidence that we have, every single clinic that has put their pricing as a standard fee has actually made money.
• 4:58
  Michael: No one has uh suddenly dropped hundreds of patients, and it's not a big scary thing.
• 5:03
  Michael: It just makes a huge difference.
• 5:04
  Michael: So when you do the simple maths on it, if there's a a£20 difference and you just increase that£20 and you see 100 patients a week, it's an extra two grand a week.
• 5:15
  Michael: That's an extra uh eight grand a month, that's 96,000 pounds a year.
• 5:22
  Michael: That is not small change, you know?
• 5:24
  Michael: Yes you do have to do it carefully.
• 5:26
  Michael: You can't charge Bob who's been with you for the last 20 years and suddenly put his price up.
• 5:30
  Michael: You've got to think about it strategically.
• 5:32
  Michael: But it is one of those things that I've seen work every single time.
• 5:36
  Michael: What how about you?
• 5:37
  Michael: What what happened when you did it?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so I need to go back a little because the uh first clinic I worked at, I was there for six years and we didn't change it.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I only left there earlier this year.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I've only been with this new clinic since the spring, and we implemented the change very, very quickly.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's difficult for me to say what the impact has been, but from what I witnessed, no patient queried it, no patient that was a returning patient challenged it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if anything, I thought, gosh, why did we not do this in my old place?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Why, you know, why were we so reluctant?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because I remember clearly conversations with directors over years, and we were all arguing about it, you know, as in we sort of all agreed it feels wrong to suddenly change it.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's part of a problem.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: For any new clinics, I would say immediately change it to a flat rate.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Don't even trial it the other way, because the longer you've done something one way, the harder it is, and we know that from all areas of life probably, to change the pattern.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the other issue is with, sorry, I'm going off on a tangent a little bit, but you always have to look at the bigger picture.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Changing pricing.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, of course, as a clinic or as a business owner, you're looking at your business making money, and it's got to be profitable, otherwise, you're not gonna be able to employ your staff and you know, expand, etc.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: But you're always, as a private clinic owner and manager, so concerned about losing your patients.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's such fear attached to making a price change and increasing every year.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, so with this clinic now, there's been no issue.
• 7:10
  Michael: So let me jump in there because I I agree with you, and and it is something you have to be concerned about.
• 7:15
  Michael: And and certainly it has to be something that you plan for and are strategic with.
• 7:22
  Michael: What I would say though is that you it's it's it's a uh it's a bet that you can take because let's just say, for example, you see 100 patients uh a week and you make an extra eight grand, right?
• 7:35
  Michael: So that's 96k.
• 7:37
  Michael: You will know within four weeks whether or not that bet has worked, okay?
• 7:42
  Michael: And let's say you drop 50% of your patients, let's just say, and which I've never seen happen, by the way.
• 7:47
  Michael: But let's just say that's the case.
• 7:49
  Michael: Okay, maybe you lose five grand, maybe you do.
• 7:52
  Michael: But the upside is so great.
• 7:54
  Michael: That 96,000, I take that bet every day of the week, you know?
• 7:58
  Michael: So I think yes, you could lose patience, but you've got to take a 5k versus 96k bet.
• 8:05
  Michael: And you can be scared, but but remember, every other industry does this.
• 8:09
  Michael: You don't go into a uh a supermarket where they keep the price of the beans exactly the same.
• 8:14
  Michael: Um, or or you know, you have to be strategic with your pricing.
• 8:18
  Michael: And one of the things that um that we saw both from barometer but also our own data, it's almost like the more expensive you are, the higher the demand becomes.
• 8:27
  Michael: And that's something else that's really interesting.
• 8:29
  Michael: And I've talked about before this this idea that um people only know if you're any good by the price that you charge.
• 8:36
  Michael: You know, if you you hold up two t-shirts, one's uh five quid and another one's a thousand pounds, people also think that the thousand pound one is better.
• 8:44
  Michael: And the same comes to healthcare.
• 8:46
  Michael: You know, I don't know how good a clinician is, but if they charge£100 and the other one charges£50, I'm going to assume that the£100 one is better.
• 8:54
  Michael: And I may be wrong, but that's just the way of life.
• 8:57
  Michael: We all do it.
• 8:58
  Michael: Um every area of life we make purchasing decisions based on the cost of something.
• 9:03
  Michael: So it it is scary, but there's so much evidence that that it works perfectly well, and the upside is is is huge.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, precisely.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I I tell you what, I think this reluctance to you know increase prices, create flat rates within clinics has reduced and for us, and what has helped hugely has been talking to you, for instance, you know, talking to HMDG who have a broader picture of what's going on across the country, up and down the country.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it hadn't been for people like yourselves telling us, look, you know, Anna, this is what we're doing in other clinics, and it's working, it's taken away some of that fear.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps that's something that 10 years ago, you know, private clinics didn't have.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't necessarily talking to each other.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: You look at the websites and you might do some cold calls to find out pricing.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: But do you really know what's going on behind the scenes?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And for instance, I mean, you mentioned the barometer, what a fabulous tool that was.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we still look at it now.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um just just having more data available to us so that we know, yes, this is a possibility.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it might be scary, but actually, look, if you look at the statistics, this is going to work out, you know.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think that's helped hugely.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we didn't have that 10 years ago.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: So when I first started, also I I I can only go by my personal experience, and that started COVID 2020, where the fear factor was at the highest level.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are we ever going to open again?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what what what can people afford?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: People are losing their jobs, etc.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thankfully, we're no longer in that sort of situation.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, data that's been provided through companies like yours has been hugely helpful.
• 10:45
  Michael: Well, I think as well, you also you hit upon the point, which is that there's been very little data available.
• 10:53
  Michael: And so people have always priced against competition, which I think is a massive mistake because if you price just against the competition, then you are not differentiating yourself at all in any way.
• 11:04
  Michael: You're really just sat in the middle with everyone else.
• 11:06
  Michael: I think strategically, you either have to be much cheaper or you have to be more expensive, because otherwise you're just sat there.
• 11:12
  Michael: And and we've seen this in industry, right?
• 11:14
  Michael: It doesn't matter what industry it is, the guys that are doing things that I've said this a million times, but the guys that are doing things that are incredibly cheap are doing really, really well.
• 11:23
  Michael: The guys that are incredibly expensive are doing really well, and everyone else in the middle is just sat there kind of scrapping for the middle ground.
• 11:32
  Michael: And and I think it's it's really important to do things differently from people and be a bit more innovative and give yourself a competitive advantage, actually.
• 11:39
  Michael: And one other thing I would say is I we we obviously track movement on websites and we have done, and one thing we've always seen, and it replicated my first appointment, was looking at the new patient price, and it was like 60 pounds, and then the existing patient price of 40.
• 11:54
  Michael: I'm like, I want to be the existing patient, I want the 40 pounds.
• 11:58
  Michael: And you see people switching between the two and and then eventually like probably leaving because they don't either understand it or it's it it it it they want the lower price or whatever.
• 12:09
  Michael: So it's always something that um I suggest is is stop thinking about how things have always been done and think about different ways of doing things.
• 12:17
  Michael: If you do the same things that you've always done, especially today with the rise of AI, if you do the same things you've always done, you are going to be left behind and you've got to innovate as a business.
• 12:27
  Michael: You can't just stand still.
• 12:29
  Michael: And I think that the the MSK industry as a whole has actually been very guilty of standing still for too long and not innovating, and that's why in many areas they're very sort of much behind what other industries have done.
• 12:42
  Michael: Let's move away, because that's very marketing-y, actually.
• 12:45
  Michael: Um I wanna, although I know you know a fair amount about marketing, I want to hit the questions that only you can really answer.
• 12:52
  Michael: Um, and the first one is is probably the best, well, maybe not the best one, but certainly one I want to know the answer to, which is what problems do clinic owners themselves what are the biggest examples of that that you that you've got?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've got to be careful what I say, right, in case they're listening.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I think, and they will all admit it, they can't let go, or if they're not letting go enough.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: So if they have somebody like me in place, if they have a practice manager in place, or they have a clinical lead in place, still trying to do their job for them and not letting go of that responsibility.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I understand where they're coming from because it's their baby, it's their business, and the concern and the worry is always there, especially if they perhaps haven't had a manager in the place, you know, to start with.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's probably the biggest issue because then you are taking away well, you if I if I look at myself, I I probably at times felt that am I is it not worthy what I'm doing?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is it not am I not good enough?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day I always had to run decisions past directors.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: It helps as well, I should I should add.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I to be completely left alone and make decisions that will impact the directors is obviously a huge responsibility.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think that's that's the biggest mistake that clinic owners can make.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Not giving your managers a certain level of freedom in operating.
• 14:18
  Michael: Well, I think they think so.
• 14:20
  Michael: Yeah, I think I I think if you're going to delegate responsibility, then you have to delegate authority with it.
• 14:26
  Michael: And if you keep asking for for everything back, every decision back, then you're just creating a loop.
• 14:32
  Michael: And you may as well have just done it in yourself in the first place.
• 14:35
  Michael: And the other thing is we know that clinic counters are killing themselves, trying to do everything, trying to manage everything, trying to run everything.
• 14:43
  Michael: And we know that they are they find it difficult to scale because they are still ultimately in control of everything, and just having an assistant to make suggestions and then still decide doesn't actually help them scale that much.
• 14:55
  Michael: And as long as you've got someone that you can trust, uh, and by the way, this is every business in the world ever, every business owner in the world ever finds it difficult to to delegate authority, but you have to, because if you don't, you will kill yourself.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think absolutely, and and it definitely is a learning curve for both sides.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, this is exactly what I went through with my uh with my first job in the sector.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was a learning curve for for both the directors and for me to learn how to trust each other.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and we did, we learned it fairly quickly, I should say should say as well.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I I would often sit down and say to them, you know, you are killing yourselves.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you why have you got me if you're still trying to do the job yourself?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we'd often laugh about it because yeah, like I said, you know, it is hard to let go.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so that's I think that's the biggest mistake they can make if they make it on a sort of long-term basis.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: You learn quickly, you get to know your your your staff, and you know, if you trust them enough and you think that yes, they have the ability to perform without you, then it can all go really well.
• 15:57
  Michael: I recently, I'd say recently, I wrote an article on um leadership and what it takes to be a leader and what you should do as a leader.
• 16:06
  Michael: And one of those was not being exempt from your own standards.
• 16:10
  Michael: So it doesn't matter what size of business you are, if you are not the first in the clinic and the last out, you can't expect others to be first in the last out.
• 16:19
  Michael: If you are not on time for meetings, you can't expect other people to be on time for meetings.
• 16:24
  Michael: You've got to lead from the front.
• 16:26
  Michael: And to this day, I will be the hardest working person in the business because I I have high standards.
• 16:32
  Michael: And if the team doesn't see it and they say, Oh, well, Michael's off playing golf this afternoon, it it it is really, really difficult to really push the rest of the team.
• 16:41
  Michael: And I've seen that amongst a lot of clinic owners who don't follow their own standards and then complain because other people don't either.
• 16:48
  Michael: Have you seen that?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: I did not see that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was very fortunate.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Both the original directors of the first practice I worked for were there morning till evening and always available.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: And now with the current um business as well, same the clinic owner is there all the time and always available.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if if he's not on site, he will make sure he tells people, contact me, I'm available.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: So no, so I have had very positive experiences in that respect.
• 17:15
  Michael: Okay, good.
• 17:16
  Michael: And I know I know him, and he's he's great, so I would expect him to absolutely be that person.
• 17:22
  Michael: What about and I think this applies to to me as well as everybody else out there, um, when a clinic owner has just gone to a conference and has come back with 10 new amazing ideas and says we've got to implement all of these.
• 17:34
  Michael: Do you ever just put your head in your hands and go, oh Jesus Christ, not again?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of head shaking at the minute, yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: All these grand ideas.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And because I guess as a manager, I mean it is exciting, let's face it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is it's always exciting in this industry to grow and to bring new ideas on board because it is an evolving industry.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I love it, but at the same time, it's this idea of okay, well, but who's going to implement this now?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what does this actually mean, you know, on the ground?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: How are we going to make it work?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's bottom line, then my job.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: But no, it's still exciting.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, yeah, I think you need to just have a really good channel of communication with your with your directors, with your clinic owners.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you, if the manager and the clinic owner don't get on, if they can't talk very frankly and openly with each other, that's an issue.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I've been very fortunate.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've never had that situation.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, that's crucial.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: But don't bring 10 new ideas.
• 18:32
  Michael: No, but I suppose to some extent that also it it requires you to have the ability and the authority to some extent to say no to things.
• 18:42
  Michael: And you've got to have that.
• 18:44
  Michael: Because I might come up with a great idea, and one of the teams is gonna say, Michael, you're an idiot, and here's why.
• 18:48
  Michael: And I want to hear that actually.
• 18:50
  Michael: And and um and I think that comes down to uh you always you know you hear a lot of people saying, My door's always open and give me honesty, but actually when you give it to them, they're not particularly receptive to it, and they say, Look, it's my idea, let's let's let's do it.
• 19:04
  Michael: Yeah, and which I think you can do in some situations, but in others, I think a a a practice manager needs to be able to say no.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely, but I think I I wouldn't go in and just say no, you know, there's always a conversation, you discuss and and at the end of that discussion, it might be a no completely, but you've got to hear both sides.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: But you as the manager have the responsibility to I mean, you asked something earlier, going back a little here, what what does a clinic owner not necessarily see is actually happening on the ground?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that is in that moment my responsibility as a manager, telling them, look, if you are wishing to make that change, if you're wishing to, I don't know, reconfigure things, etc., or bring a new piece of equipment, or do this training course, etc., you've got to understand that I have staff who might be opposed to that, or that requires us to change policies that require, you know, so so I think it's again, it's always, it's got to be a discussion, it's got to be a conversation.
• 19:59
  Michael: I it's interesting how you just phrased that.
• 20:01
  Michael: Uh and I don't know if you realised it, but you said, but you said, I have staff.
• 20:06
  Michael: And and I think that that's interesting.
• 20:08
  Michael: No, I think that's a good thing, right?
• 20:10
  Michael: Because you have obviously worked in in environments where you are the practice manager and they are your staff.
• 20:17
  Michael: And I think that's really important.
• 20:19
  Michael: It's it's something that I think that um might make some clinic kind of think, no, no, no, no, no, they're my staff and you're my staff.
• 20:27
  Michael: But actually, I think, well, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that um for a practice manager to be really good at what they do, they do have to treat the staff as their staff.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I didn't realize I said it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you're giving me something to think about.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, they are I mean, I'm not the one paying them, right?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: So legally speaking, they're not mine, but because I am responsible responsible for them on a day-to-day basis, they come to me.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: They come to me with their issues.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: I am the one who tends to speak with patients if there's an issue.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm the one who has to call somebody up because there are some maintenance issues for the facilities, etc.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah, yeah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I think I take real pride, and most I I would expect a practice manager to do the same.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you take pride in looking after your team.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And as much as they are obviously the clinic owners team, I would have been very heavily involved in recruiting them, for instance, in helping train them up, in monitoring how they're doing, in checking in on them every single day or multiple times a week.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you become quite um, I wouldn't say possessive, it's probably quite a strong word.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I, you know, I take I take great pride in having that opportunity to to say that they are my team as well as the owners.
• 21:43
  Michael: Well, I suppose that that highlights something with a small business rather than versus a a a larger business.
• 21:49
  Michael: Because if you've got a massive business, it doesn't matter what it is, then everyone works.
• 21:54
  Michael: This is my team.
• 21:54
  Michael: That's the way you work.
• 21:55
  Michael: This is my team, this is your team.
• 21:57
  Michael: And you're not no one minds because the CEO is saying.
• 22:00
  Michael: On the yacht somewhere.
• 22:01
  Michael: So it is your team.
• 22:02
  Michael: But when it comes to a small business, I think that should probably be replicated.
• 22:06
  Michael: There's no reason why not.
• 22:07
  Michael: And and you've got to have structure around that, and you've got to have a shared shared understanding of what that actually means.
• 22:14
  Michael: But I don't think you can again operate if as a clinic owner, if you hire a practice manager and not expect them to do all of those things and handle those things.
• 22:23
  Michael: That's got to be part of your role.
• 22:25
  Michael: And to some extent, they're probably more likely, and I'm sure you you found this, they're probably more likely to want to speak to you about things than they are to the owner.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, again, you know, that comes with experience and that comes with time, and also that comes with how they how the clinic owner or owners present the manager to the team.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's very important that when they put a manager in place, they communicate to the team that we are still here for you, but ultimately we want this manager to be your first point of contact.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have any issues, because what's the point otherwise?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Why have a manager in place if everyone still comes to you, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think I think it's very much about how the owner presents the manager to the team in the first place and and shows the relationship of the manager in front of the team as well.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if if there's friction between management and the directors, that's not gonna go down well, is it?
• 23:18
  Michael: Uh I'd really love to we're not gonna do it today, but I'd really love to get into like how that process works when you because I think a lot of people listening don't have a practice manager in this in in in the same way as you've been a practice manager, and what the process is to bring that person in and how that operates on a day-to-day and operational basis.
• 23:39
  Michael: And and I think that would be really interesting to cover.
• 23:41
  Michael: We're not going to cover it today, but if people want it, email in.
• 23:44
  Michael: I'd be more than happy, and uh hopefully I am would more than happy to sit down and actually talk about that and unpack that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'd love that.
• 23:51
  Michael: Okay, it's one other thing you said which sort of made me really interested, was the the amount of responsibility you had to do with recruitment, because I don't hear that very often.
• 24:00
  Michael: The practice manager might have a cursory glance at some CBs and put them in front of the clinic owner, but rarely are they really involved in the decision making of that that physio hire.
• 24:13
  Michael: Talk to me about that a little bit and what your role was and how that worked.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it evolved over the years.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so with the first clinic, it was quite a big team.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in the end, we had about 17, 18 therapists, that was physios, neurophysio.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: We had women's health sports therapists, massage therapists.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of my involvement with recruitment, I would sift through CVs.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, often the directors would run CVs past me.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: They might be the first ones receiving them to start with, but then they'd run them past me making the initial phone calls.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just gauging.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, you'll you'll hear that from a lot of the clinics you're working with.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: You look, of course, you look for, you know, have they got the right degrees, have they got the right certificates, um, how long have they been, you know, practicing?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: But then ultimately you want to know their personality.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Will they be a good fit?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I was always very fortunate that the directors would trust me in my sort of like gut instinct with people.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I would often make the first phone call, getting to know them a little bit, asking them sort of just generic questions, um, and then setting up the interviews.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I would sit in on the interviews.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: We would have quite maybe perhaps a bit of an old-fashioned setup, but in my first clinic, uh, we'd have the directors sitting in, both practicing physios, and you know, asking them clinical questions.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I would often then afterwards feedback to the directors how I perceived the answers from a potential patient perspective, because obviously my clinical knowledge is very limited.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that I think has always been quite good.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: We we we literally never recruited anyone that we regretted further down the line.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: We um yeah, so I was involved in that.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Just I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to answer whether their clinical knowledge was good, although over the years I learned a bit in the way they were, you know, speaking, communicating with us.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: But in terms of a personal fit, you know, character fit, that was quite important to the directors that they had my input on that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: And with the current clinic, it's a much smaller clinic, much more intimate.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was involved in only one physio that we recruited, who I was there face to face on the day, with all of us kind of around.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's a slightly different way that we're we're we were interviewing there.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it was just afterwards being able to speak to the director and the director asking me, what did you think?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Did you like that person?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Did what did you think of their answers, you know, from a person perspective rather than clinical perspective.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, the other thing that I was involved with when it comes to recruitment is admin.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: We were the first clinic was quite a big clinic.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I ended up having a team of five receptionists part-time.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that was my job.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I essentially recruited all of them without much input at all from the directors because, you know, that there was no need, they trusted me.
• 26:54
  Michael: Yeah, and and that's interesting as well with the uh the sort of personality split versus the clinical ability.
• 27:01
  Michael: So having two people on there, one concerned with will this person fit into the culture of the business?
• 27:08
  Michael: And you probably do know better than the clinic owner if you're running the team and you know the personalities of the team more, but then the owner having that that clinical view as well.
• 27:19
  Michael: Like, do they practice the way I want them to practice?
• 27:21
  Michael: Do they have the knowledge?
• 27:22
  Michael: My my question on that is how often did you hire based more on personality than on clinical ability?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we ever hired anyone questioning their clinical ability.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, we didn't.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: We never did.
• 27:35
  Michael: But in terms of it, I don't mean that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:40
  Michael: I don't mean that.
• 27:41
  Michael: I mean, let's say there are two people who are you know, I'm not saying one's a bad clinician, you hire them because they're nice.
• 27:47
  Michael: But there's two people and they both have decent clinical ability.
• 27:51
  Michael: Maybe one has slightly more, but you hire the other person because they're just gonna fit in with the team better and they're just nicer people and so on.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: 100% every time it was personality then.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: So when it came down to two, we had one occasion where we had actually three candidates and and it came down to this person, j just the way that he was presenting himself, you know, humble, modest, just incredibly pleasant.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100% we would always hire the one with the better personality.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: But then you do, don't you, in any business.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: But that was vital, and and no regrets there, you know, turned out to be a great, great hire.
• 28:29
  Michael: So I don't think you do always.
• 28:31
  Michael: I think there's a lot of clinics out there and other companies that actually hire purely on skill and their ability in a in a role.
• 28:38
  Michael: I think it's obviously changing over time now, but um, you know, still to this day, I think if you have two CVs and one has a ton of, you know, the educated at Oxford went to Eaton, da, and the other person didn't, the other person doesn't even get the interview.
• 28:54
  Michael: And that's not something we do as a company, actually.
• 28:57
  Michael: I kind of don't care where someone went to university, I care more about what they do in their free time on their CV and the sort of things that they say.
• 29:04
  Michael: But I think it's it's very common in this industry to put clinical ability above and beyond their cultural fit.
• 29:10
  Michael: And I think that's a mistake, but I see it all the time.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think for us as as clinics that it's it's always been so vital that we could see this person become a part of the team.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you know, if they ticked all the boxes when it came to their qualifications, their experience, the references worked out, then ultimately, you know, do can we see ourselves getting on with that person in the team?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Can we see them trying to fit in?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Do they have ambition to want to become a member of a team?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: That was I mean, I get I guess I was just very lucky that uh because that's how I operate in life, and I feel you do too, and you've just said you do.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: You you want to make sure that the atmosphere at work is right.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And for me as a clinic manager, that's beyond vital.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Walking in in the morning, seeing people are happy to be here.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: They may not be happy it's Monday morning and they've got the next five, six days ahead of them, but they know they can get through it because they get on with each other.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it just nothing beats it.
• 30:09
  Michael: Yeah, no, I I totally agree.
• 30:10
  Michael: And I think you can also teach skills, particularly if you've got a really good CPD program, particularly if you've got you know good training, the skills could be taught and learned.
• 30:20
  Michael: The personality can't.
• 30:21
  Michael: And I'm I'm a strong believer that I've got to like you.
• 30:24
  Michael: Uh and I always had a rule which is can I go on holiday with you and not want to kill you a week later?
• 30:30
  Michael: If I can do that, then that's a good, good first sign.
• 30:33
  Michael: So another question I've got is uh around what what because you see the you see the stuff that the like the clinic owner doesn't see, so like and sometimes the physios don't see.
• 30:44
  Michael: What do the patients say when the physios and the clinic owners aren't listening?
• 30:49
  Michael: Have you ever sort of learned things that you found are really important that they may not say to to anyone else?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh absolutely.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for me, in fact, if anything, that's been a huge privilege of this job.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately for me, the clinic setups have always facilitated that I was able to see patients face to face and that I could speak with them, and that was just the biggest joy.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: What would they say to me that they wouldn't say to perhaps the therapist or the clinic owners, for instance, you've changed pricing, why is that?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And those sort of conversations, or you know, or why have you not bought, you know, why is there I don't know, it could be something to do with the the building is not quite up to scratch.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had people criticizing the height of the chairs in the waiting room.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so you pick up on, I think, just sort of little but very useful things that you wouldn't think a patient necessarily sees, but they do.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it it often would be about why is the clinic set up the way it is, as in, you know, why do you have this in the waiting room?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you put that up?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't we, I don't know, why don't you have a new water dispenser or things like that?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Just small bits and bobs, I think.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I had a lovely uh moment earlier last week where a patient came in and she was chatting with me and she said, you know what?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so lovely walking in here.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone is so friendly and welcoming.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's just such a positive atmosphere.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just stood there and I genuinely felt a bit choked up and I said, Well, that's really lovely to hear that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know whether they would say it during a treatment because they're just busy being in pain, being pummeled and you know, put through their paces.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really nice to then be able to feed that back to the owners, yeah, is a is a it's joyful.
• 32:25
  Michael: Yeah, and that brings on to something we actually spoke about, I think, last week on the phone, which was experience and patient experience, which I think is is incredibly important.
• 32:34
  Michael: And I I saw a uh LinkedIn post yesterday, it was saying that potentially saying we don't invest in that stuff, we the fancy signs and the fancy stuff, we invest in our people and we get them to be better clinicians.
• 32:50
  Michael: My immediate thought was well, if the outside of your clinic looks like shit, then no one's coming in to see those those clients.
• 32:57
  Michael: Um if you can't provide a good experience for the patient coming in even before they come in through the whole process until they sit in your clinic room, if you can't provide that, you're not gonna get those patients back, no matter how good your clinician is.
• 33:10
  Michael: And uh I'm interested to to know your views on patient experience and how important it is and some examples of things that you've also done that have improved those things.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, patient experience is everything for this business, isn't it?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: What have we done?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so we we've ha we over the years had feedback on yeah, parking situation, you know, whether the the entrance wasn't accessible enough, you know, we need to put a banister up.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we and we did, you know, and put a rail up going up the stairs because we realized patients were struggling with that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: The what other issues?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm having to wreck my brain a little bit.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess uh you you also sadly, and I mean that's just part of uh running a sort of face-to-face business, you do have patients who are unhappy um with perhaps the way um a session went.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And when they feed that back to you, how do you then deal with that with a therapist?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it may not even be the issue of the therapist not having done things exactly as the patient had wanted it, but perhaps the fact that the machine wasn't working, things like that, you know.
• 34:13
  Michael: So, what about just in terms of the sort of everyday stuff, like the things that people don't think about or don't put much focus on?
• 34:21
  Michael: It could be how the waiting room is set up, it could be the kind of hand soap you have in the the toilets, it could be how you make things look, repainting the place, making it feel more like a place you want to be rather than just a clinic waiting room.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay, so I I'm laughing because the moment you mentioned toilets, it just uh sends shivers down my spine.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: The number of times I was asked to please change the toilet seat, you know, they're unhappy with that, or why don't we offer cappuccinos and lattes and why don't we have soy milk and oat milk?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, so um so yeah, those conversations were had with patients, and toilet seats were regularly changed, and we did paint the place.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: But again, I we did a with my first clinic, we did a regular walkthrough of the clinic with one of the directors.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: She took particular joy in doing that on a regular basis and trying to always keep things looking sharp.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we didn't luckily have much feedback that was negative or, you know, room for improvement.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: But we I think what we did improve on over the years was the presentation of the waiting area, 100%.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it started off quite kind of a bit old-fashioned, and then we ended up having a screen in there with just some sort of, you know, videos, something that kept people engaged.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: The reception team, I think, is so vital as well.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you are in a position where, as a clinic, you can have a receptionist.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: That that engagement with the patients as they walk in and talking to them if perhaps the previous appointment is slightly overrunning.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the kind of things that over time patients have always commented on were a positive experience or added to a positive experience for them.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: So having having somebody who is present with them.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's not just so much about is it nice to sit in the waiting room because there's a nice view out of the window, but does it look nice?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And is there somebody who talks to me?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is there somebody who offers me a coffee?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or at Christmas time when we I mean, not never me, sadly, but all the therapists and often the research team were gifted chocolates and biscuits and we chair them out, you know, things like that.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just yeah, the small details that add to a patient thinking, that was lovely.
• 36:27
  Michael: Um it's interesting that that people would bring up things like uh you know, soy milk or oat milk.
• 36:34
  Michael: And to some people that might just be really annoying and just our study patients, to me, I think it's brilliant.
• 36:40
  Michael: I think the best feedback you can get, um, because if one's having that, then other people will as well.
• 36:46
  Michael: I think if you can well the question did you axe on that feedback?
• 36:49
  Michael: Did you put soy milk in?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Never.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't, but but it would always it would it would create a bit of a fun conversation, if anything.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And we did uh we actually, I mean, we had um a couple of lovely patients where uh we ended up buying hot chocolate in because uh and and I had a receptionist who was creating star charts for whenever a patient came in because we had a therapist who would always say, Oh, I'd give you a gold star today, and then this receptionist took it upon herself to to cut out little stars and just give them to the patient when they left.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it was I just think just j sometimes it's enough, I think, if you listen to the patient.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: Are you really gonna implement the changes?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: Possibly not, but if you're listening and you're talking to them about what they might want, and they might want a cappuccino next time, but you're gonna tell them, I'm really sorry, I can't afford that cappuccino makeup, but I work on it for Christmas, you know, and you have a bit of banter.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that's good enough, but yeah, there was no soy milk.
• 37:47
  Michael: No, but I love that.
• 37:48
  Michael: I honestly I love that.
• 37:49
  Michael: I love the star idea.
• 37:50
  Michael: It's it's just getting people involved and creating a relationship between people.
• 37:54
  Michael: Oh, yes.
• 37:55
  Michael: Uh and you mentioned when when you first got into this industry, you said your experience was working um or going personally to go and see a doctor, and it was very clinical.
• 38:04
  Michael: Yeah, I know what German doctors are like, very clinical, very matter-of-fact.
• 38:09
  Michael: Uh don't even call you by your first name.
• 38:11
  Michael: And you know, you come over here and you see that more personal side, but I think that the world has moved on even further than that now.
• 38:18
  Michael: I think you have to do a lot more than than you used to have to do.
• 38:21
  Michael: So moving on to the reception team, I think that's incredibly important.
• 38:26
  Michael: I'd love to know what your thoughts are on what a good reception team should look like and what they should do.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they I always whenever I recruited receptionists, I I often had people in front of me who'd say, I am not very good on the computer, I really struggle with admin.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I would still hire them because I just loved talking to them.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: They were engaging, they were warm.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And whenever mistakes were made, I always said, Did you kill anyone today?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if the answer was no, I said, Well, there you go, everything is gonna be fine.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: So a good receptionist needs to be engaging, needs to be warm, needs to be able to multitask, especially in a busy environment.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've got the phone ringing, you've got somebody who's just arrived at the clinic, you've got two people waiting to check out and pay and rebook, and to be able to prioritize is absolutely crucial.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: But if you can do it all with a smile, but it's you're telling three people at the desk, I'm really sorry, give me one second, or you just do it with a nod and a bit of an eye contact.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that goes further than you know, I can work, PowerPoint and Excel, et cetera.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Good phone manners, obviously.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Seeing if things need doing, like, you know, we were saying about you know, offering somebody a coffee and then clearing the cup away because they've left it on the windowsill, and then on the windowsill is the mark from the coffee cup or teacup, etc.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, cleaning that up, having an eye for detail, but ultimately being able to speak with the patient on their level, when you get patients in from you know, toddler age to into their 90s, just having that common sense to to know when to speak and what when not to speak, to know when to have banter and when not to have banter.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's really important.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: That makes a good reception.
• 40:08
  Michael: Yeah, I I I was recently um uh HCA healthcare um and as a patient, and my experience was absolutely horrific from before I came in all the way through to seeing the consultant.
• 40:21
  Michael: The consultant was magnificent, like absolutely brilliant.
• 40:25
  Michael: Couldn't have asked for a better consultant, but the entire process was awful.
• 40:30
  Michael: And from not being able to pay for my appointment online to getting lost in in the building because the people couldn't show me the right direction, to people being very rude actually on reception.
• 40:42
  Michael: I had one situation where I got to the finally got to like the fourth reception desk and I said, Hi, I've got an appointment, and she said, Who with?
• 40:50
  Michael: And I said, Do you know what?
• 40:51
  Michael: I don't know.
• 40:51
  Michael: And it I checked my confirmation email and it didn't say.
• 40:54
  Michael: And I said, But my appointments are four.
• 40:56
  Michael: And she just put her arms up and sort of said, Well, um, I don't know.
• 41:00
  Michael: And I'm thinking, how is that my appointments at four?
• 41:04
  Michael: This is my name, surely, you know, you should be able to find me.
• 41:07
  Michael: It's giving me hard palpitations.
• 41:10
  Michael: And yeah, I know.
• 41:11
  Michael: Then I end up in the waiting room, and I think there were six chairs and about 18, 16, 17, 18 people.
• 41:19
  Michael: So everyone was standing up, and you know, you'd expect them to be on time, but they weren't particularly on time.
• 41:24
  Michael: And I thought to myself, like, this is this is a giant organization who should be able to afford a few more chairs, or at least know when demand is there, and you know, the the entire process to me was was kind of laughable, and it made me think, especially the rudeness actually from the people on reception, it just made me think I probably wouldn't come here again.
• 41:44
  Michael: And the first thing I did when I got home was I looked for the consultant and their name and to try and find out where else they worked, because I wanted to see the consultant again, I just didn't want to go through HCA again, and and I think that's the difference that a good experience can make to a to a bad experience, and I think that the people that greet you are incredibly important, and I'll give you one other example.
• 42:08
  Michael: This was a couple of years ago at Fortious, where I'm standing by reception and they are chatting and laughing and didn't acknowledge me for at least a minute.
• 42:16
  Michael: And I just thought, holy crap, like you're getting paid for this.
• 42:20
  Michael: You know, someone needs to do something about it.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is exactly the point.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: We are talking private healthcare.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: Patients are coming in and they're paying for their appointments.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, the appointment itself is the main reason they're coming in.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: They're not coming in because they want to have a chat with the receptionist or you know, the manager or anyone else who might be passing them.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, the whole experience is important.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: I always used to say we often had work experience students, and when I was doing the induction with them, I we often got them to help clean the rooms in between appointments as well.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say to them, think about it as if you're the patient, what would you do if you are on the couch, your therapist has gone out because I don't know, you could be on a machine or something, and the therapist left the room for five minutes, or you've you're in the room waiting for the therapist to come in.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer I was always looking for was, well, I'm looking around.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, well, exactly.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look around and you see something isn't tidy, something looks dirty, something looks like it's broken, immediately start thinking, well, hang on a second, I'm paying for this.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: At least that's what that's where I would go in my head.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: So this experience of having a lovely person open the door for you and maybe apologize to you.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so sorry the previous appointment is slightly overrun.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Can I get you another coffee?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Would you like anything?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: And even if the answer is no, thank you, I feel acknowledged.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I am important.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm paying for this, and it's important to them that I have a positive experience.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: So your reception team is vital in achieving that.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: The way that your practice is laid out is vital in achieving that.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: The therapist giving fabulous treatment and having a good rapport with the patient is vital.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: It all adds up.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: That there's toilet paper in the po in the toilet, you know, toilet roller.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need to ask for anything.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: That whatever I require, whilst I'm on site for those 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 30 minutes, that everything is taken care of for me, that I can pay at the end, or if you want to pay online, that all of these things are done properly and I don't have any complication thrown in my way.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that's something that I take as a huge responsibility as the manager of a clinic.
• 44:26
  Michael: And also something I I noticed not so long ago when my son's having braces done, you know, six grand it's cost me so far, I think.
• 44:34
  Michael: Um crazy.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well I'm very lucky.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: Mine is on NHS, thankfully, for my son.
• 44:40
  Michael: I shouldn't get that, unfortunately, but went in there and I've been in there 15 times.
• 44:46
  Michael: And every time, what's your name?
• 44:48
  Michael: Like, you're the same person I've met you 15 times.
• 44:52
  Michael: You know, little things.
• 44:53
  Michael: Remember your bloody names of people, right?
• 44:56
  Michael: It's not hard.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've I had a therapist in well, actually, I'm sure a lot of them do it, but I knew of one in particular.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: He would write in his treatment notes if a patient was going on holiday and where.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so next time he saw them, which may have been six weeks later, and he's seen a thousand patients since, he'd go, How was Tenerife?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, did you how was your daughter's wedding and so on?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the moment that happens to you, you know, I mean, you've got to always think, put yourself in those shoes.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you were the patient, I think if you approach everything in life that way, even you know, outside of work, you'd do that in a private setting, wouldn't you?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if if if that was my friend, if I was the one who received that news, how would you feel, etc.?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, putting yourself in the other shoes and making them feel like they were being listened to is yeah, is so important.
• 45:45
  Michael: Well, if you think back to our calls, you know, we needed to obviously get things done.
• 45:50
  Michael: But the first 10 minutes was just chatting, and maybe sometimes longer as well, and we ran out of time.
• 45:55
  Michael: But it was just chatting and they did go on longer.
• 45:59
  Michael: But it was really nice because you know, I get to know what you're up to, and you know, it's and I think that's important.
• 46:04
  Michael: I I I you can't overstate that.
• 46:06
  Michael: And and your example of writing things down if people have been on holiday, I think that's also incredibly important.
• 46:12
  Michael: I've told the story before of my friend who someone I know he's got a Michelin-style restaurant.
• 46:16
  Michael: Whenever someone comes in and buys a bottle of wine, they make a note of that bottle of wine, and the next time they're in, they'll mention it.
• 46:22
  Michael: And immediately you think, oh my god, they remember my butt.
• 46:26
  Michael: They don't remember anything, it's on the database.
• 46:28
  Michael: But it just makes you feel somewhat special.
• 46:31
  Michael: I have a test actually for you.
• 46:34
  Michael: I've never done a test before, but uh it's a question I've asked quite it's a question I've asked a lot of people over the last few weeks, and no one yet has had a good answer.
• 46:46
  Michael: And I want to know what your answer is and whether whether you did it.
• 46:49
  Michael: So, what do you say?
• 46:51
  Michael: You've got a new receptionist, okay, and you're training them.
• 46:55
  Michael: And someone phones up and says very bluntly, what's the price of your physio appointment?
• 47:00
  Michael: Or how much isn't does an appointment cost?
• 47:02
  Michael: What do you say to that person?
• 47:04
  Michael: Do you give them just the answer and say it's 60 pounds, or do you not?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I never just give the uh the price.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, it's very much about I don't immediately go in with the price anyway.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, okay, so if you wish to book for an initial assessment, just let you know it's a 45-minute appointment, but then during that appointment, you'll have a thorough assessment.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I kind of go through what's happening and at the end I go, and it is.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now I don't know whether that's right or wrong, or if that's the sort of answer that you'd look out for, but that's how I have always felt I can keep people on the phone a bit longer, perhaps, and get them to book in.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're starting to engage, you're starting to you're starting to give them an idea of who they might be booking in with.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like not with me personally, but obviously the kind of clinic that we are.
• 47:50
  Michael: Yeah, I I think uh first of all, yes, you've got you don't just answer£50, because they go, okay, thank you, and hang up, and then you can't keep them engaged.
• 47:59
  Michael: I think what you did was right, well, uh the appointment depends on the appointment, but obviously if you're it's a 60-minute appointment, because what you're doing is you're selling, right?
• 48:07
  Michael: You're you're telling them what they get, not just the price, because everyone offers something, something different.
• 48:12
  Michael: But what I would add is something like, oh no, um, what what's what's the problem?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was just going to say if they don't start with that, I would always say, What are you coming in for?
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: And are you calling on behalf of you know anyone else, etc.?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you have that every single time.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it is so important that you try and learn who they are in such a short period of time because you don't know how much time they've got.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: They may have decided, oh, do you know what?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: I've got five minutes, it's my lunch break, I can quickly call them.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and and you have to gauge very quickly what how long you've got with them.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think you're selling without giving them a price quite quickly.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:49
  Michael: Yeah, I and i it it's the old adage, isn't it?
• 48:52
  Michael: You've got three seconds to make an impression, and someone who says, Oh no, you know, poor you.
• 48:56
  Michael: I mean, don't say poor you, but oh no, what what's the what's the problem?
• 49:00
  Michael: Obviously, we have different therapists that we can send you to.
• 49:02
  Michael: Say, Oh, my shoulder's really hurting.
• 49:04
  Michael: Oh no, did what did you do?
• 49:05
  Michael: Anything like did it just happen?
• 49:07
  Michael: Oh yeah, I was playing squash.
• 49:09
  Michael: Okay.
• 49:10
  Michael: Uh and and they say, Oh, I was playing squash.
• 49:12
  Michael: And you say, Oh, do you know what?
• 49:13
  Michael: Bob, he's actually a really one of our physios, he loves squash, so you could definitely go and see Bob.
• 49:19
  Michael: Um, he's always dealing with with his own injuries, never mind others.
• 49:22
  Michael: Bob charges£60 for uh an hour appointment.
• 49:25
  Michael: Would you like to get me?
• 49:26
  Michael: Well, not a close question, not would you like to get me booked in?
• 49:30
  Michael: When would you be able to see him?
• 49:32
  Michael: And that is a very different answer to it's£60 and you get 60 minutes for that.
• 49:39
  Michael: And I think so far no one other than you has actually kind of answered that right.
• 49:44
  Michael: Most people just give the price, which is really interesting and and I think is is an example of the lack of selling because selling is such a dirty word, but actually knowing those things gives again more experience, right?
• 49:56
  Michael: It's a better experience for the patient.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: But also it is down to the experience of the person answering the phone.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, you know, in in my experience, I've had some quite young recruits, you know, working on reception, you know, students who are looking to perhaps go into physiotherapy at university.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd have 17, 18-year-olds working on the desk, and yes, their answer would often be it's 65 pounds, and then they go dead quiet, and I am dying inside.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: So especially when you're training reception app, you know, I would spend personally quite a lot of my time sitting with them.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they would train with the main receptionist for quite some time, and then they would um, you know, then that receptionist, there would be a couple of shifts where that receptionist would sit on the other chair and just oversee, just in case they need a bit of help.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: But teaching phone language is, I mean, it's a hard job teaching somebody the right phone language.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: But when when you can master that, yeah, it'll make such a difference to your patient retention and to to winning patients.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because especially if you're in an area where you've got huge competition.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always been in places where there was a lot of competition around.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: Whether they were true competition to us, yeah, it can be can be questioned.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: But there were other practices, there were other clinics, there were sole traders, that were a bit cheaper, you know.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: And if somebody comes to physio, sports massage or sports therapy for the first time, they don't really know what they're looking for.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: So if they're thinking, well, this is 55 and that's 75, I'm gonna just try it with the 55 on, right?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, teaching the reception team or or or being fortunate that you get somebody through the door who immediately knows how to speak to people, that's like gold dust.
• 51:31
  Michael: Yeah, exactly.
• 51:32
  Michael: Right, we don't have much time left.
• 51:33
  Michael: So I've got two more questions for you.
• 51:35
  Michael: The first is when should a clinic hire a practice manager, a proper practice manager?
• 51:40
  Michael: Um, at what size or what what would you say if someone said, or maybe what would you ask if someone said, Oh, I think I need a practice manager?
• 51:47
  Michael: What are the questions you asked to determine whether they really did?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think the first question I'd ask is what do you need them to do that you can't do yourself anymore, that you think you can do away with?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because so as a clinic owner, if you're at a point where you're just working non-stop and you are no longer on top of your administrative ch sort of tasks, uh, you're struggling to deal with, you know, suppliers and organizing supplies, recruitment.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I think really when you've when you are you at a point where you need support to take care of the sort of day-to-day running of the business so that you can focus on whether that's your clinical work, your business growth.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: That that would be my first question.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is that the point you've reached?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the second one is you know, not just can you afford it, but how are you going to afford it?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, I would never want to talk myself out of uh my my roles that I've had, but obviously the business needs to be able to now make that money that they're paying a practice manager.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, what can we do to facilitate that you are still going to be profitable having a manager in place?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they I think they would be my key questions.
• 53:00
  Michael: The first one was what can you give away?
• 53:02
  Michael: I think after what do you need to give away?
• 53:04
  Michael: I suppose the question really is also or what are you willing to give away?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a learning curve that you think you you think you want to give away things bad, but then you're struggling, and then eventually you do because you realize actually that's amazing.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: I no longer have to do that.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my my my current clinic, you know, after I started, he said he can finally sleep better.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, great.
• 53:29
  Michael: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:30
  Michael: So sometimes it's not just about the money either, um, because many clinics can afford it, but it's more about giving yourself some free time back so you don't kill yourself as a as a business owner.
• 53:39
  Michael: Also, you you mentioned cost.
• 53:41
  Michael: Should a practice manager also be revenue generating?
• 53:45
  Michael: Like, should you expect to hire one and maybe not immediately, but should you see revenue increase because you've hired a practice manager?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: A hundred percent, because I think the role of a practice manager is so varied.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: Looking, I mean, for instance, I have always taken it very seriously.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: I look after costs of the business, expenses, you know, because I've got time for that.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do clinical work.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I can I can look at where we can save money, for instance.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when it's revenue generating, it could also be a matter of looking at savings.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the one who speaks with clinicians about okay, we need to work on your patient retention.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: So filling clinics, utilization of of clinic rooms is part of your job, or was part of my job anyway.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, it all depends on size of clinic, how many therapists, etc., you've got working for you.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then going out, speaking to stakeholders, you know, making new connections.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely, you know, a practice manager once they've been in place for a period of time and you've you you've you've really established, you know, things are going well within the clinic, should go out there and start making connections that can bring in new revenue.
• 54:50
  Michael: So almost business development in a way.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 54:53
  Michael: And I'd love to know how many Yeah, it does, but I'd love to know how many practice managers out there today, or how many clinic owners have a practice manager that is also a business development manager that gets out there, that comes up with ideas, meets people, builds relationships, and then also internally is responsible for attention.
• 55:10
  Michael: Um I know we were chatting last week about Clinic Signal, and you you you use that now and and you look at what that does for the business.
• 55:17
  Michael: How many practice managers are looking at the metrics for the business and then making suggestions and changing things to improve those metrics?
• 55:26
  Michael: I think most of the time, actually, it that goes back to the clinic owner to decide rather than the practice manager.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: It probably does.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not going to sit here and say that I've done all of those things.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's certainly something that I started growing into towards the end of my first job in practice management.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: But but it really depends on the size of the clinic, and it depends on what the clinic owners want you to do.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: If they are interested in growth, if they wish to expand, then yes, they should make that part of your role.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then it also means if up until that point you've been running operations day to day and that's taking up your 40-hour weeks, then where where is time for you to then go and do the business development side of things?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you might need to get some additional support.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I really think it's very dependent on the size of the clinic and the involvement of the clinic owners still, you know, how how yeah, where do they see the business going and what do they need you to do?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if they want you to do the business development side, then they need to provide you with additional support because it ultimately means you're going to have to reduce the amount you spend on the usual kind of day-to-day tasks that you've been in charge of.
• 56:33
  Michael: Yeah, it's interesting though, because I think I see this a lot where Clinic kind of says, I just don't have the time to do this.
• 56:39
  Michael: I just don't have the time to do that.
• 56:41
  Michael: I'd really like to do, you know, XYZ.
• 56:43
  Michael: And then you say, Well, what about your practice manager?
• 56:46
  Michael: and say, Oh no, I it's something I need to do, it's on my list.
• 56:48
  Michael: It's like, well, it's been on your list for eight months.
• 56:51
  Michael: You could have implemented this now by now if you'd have just given it to someone.
• 56:55
  Michael: And uh I think that I I hear that all the time.
• 56:58
  Michael: Not to criticize too much, but you do hear that.
• 57:00
  Michael: And by the way, I'm the same.
• 57:02
  Michael: I've done it's not like I haven't done the same thing myself.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: I also think, you know, you're initially employing a practice manager to do to to take care of the day-to-day operations because you haven't got the time and capacity for it anymore.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: Is that person necessarily somebody who can go into sales and business development?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's questionable.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't think I I could.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't necessarily say I was very good at it either, because it was something that was introduced to my role more towards the end of my my first job, because the directors changed and the new owners very much wanted that to be part of my role.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it was certainly, you know, a struggle to start with until you become confident.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there might be some out there who say, nope, that's not that's not what I've signed up for.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really not that person.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if you're looking, if you're thinking about employing a practice manager, you should really so I'm gonna add to those two questions then, you should think about what is it that in five years from now or so, if we can think five years ahead, you want that manager to do for you.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're looking for somebody who can drive your business forward and grow it, then that person needs to have the ability to do sales and yeah, and put themselves out there.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something else that you should then look out for in that person that you're hiring.
• 58:22
  Michael: Yeah, I almost want to rename the job title from practice manager to something else, commercial and people manager, because I think that practice manager people think of as a glorified receptionist.
• 58:34
  Michael: And I think the best clinics are the ones that treat them actually more like a commercial person, like a CXO or or CMO, you know?
• 58:43
  Michael: Um and I I think now I imagine if you went into a business for an interview as a practice manager, I think that one of the first things you'd say is, Well, actually, I can also do all of these things that they probably wouldn't hear from many people.
• 58:56
  Michael: And I think that's that's actually really important.
• 58:58
  Michael: And I think a lot of a lot of clinic owners aren't exposed to practice managers like yourselves, so they see the the the the role as quite a limited role rather than a real business partner who is gonna get out there and make a change for the business.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Possibly, yeah.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it'd be interesting to hear the view of others, you know, who have practice managers in place and what they've got them for, what they're doing currently for them.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: Be would be worth you putting another um survey out there to all your clinics.
• 59:29
  Michael: Yeah, it's an interesting one because um the the most common things I hear is my practice manager said X, but I don't think it's a good idea.
• 59:38
  Michael: When quite honestly, it's a it's just a it's a judgment call.
• 59:42
  Michael: And sometimes I think you know, I always have had a policy whereby if someone gives me an idea and it's a 50-50, I go with that idea and I check the data.
• 59:51
  Michael: Because if you don't allow that, then what are you doing?
• 59:54
  Michael: You've got to give people that opportunity.
• 59:56
  Michael: Obviously, if they're like, I want to spend a hundred grand on coffee cups, it's probably not a good idea.
• 1:00:01
  Michael: But generally, if it's a 50-50, give it a shot, it's not gonna cost me a lot.
• 1:00:06
  Michael: Let's see if it works.
• 1:00:06
  Michael: And if it does, fantastic.
• 1:00:08
  Michael: If it doesn't, you're better off trying things than not trying things.
• 1:00:11
  Michael: But I hear that a lot where my practice manager says X and I don't want to do it, or my practice manager, oh, I don't want to give that to them.
• 1:00:17
  Michael: It's too important.
• 1:00:18
  Michael: I hear that a lot.
• 1:00:20
  Michael: Um, another one is not wanting to give the practice manager access to financial data, which I think is an interesting one.
• 1:00:28
  Michael: Um, and and I think it's really important that they do have access to that so they do know what's going on within the business.
• 1:00:34
  Michael: But we've had a lot of people, um, gotta be careful what I say, but a lot of people who want to restrict their practice managers from even sometimes basic marketing data on what they're spending, um, which is quite interesting to me because now that person really is just a receptionist.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: That concerns me.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: If that is how they feel, it means there isn't enough trust.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I know trust is hard to establish, but again, I can only speak from personal experience.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've been very, very fortunate.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: The people I've worked with did trust in my abilities and my integrity, I guess.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: Not so much the abilities perhaps, but uh integrity is important.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are at a point where you don't trust your manager to log into zero and reconcile payments that have come through from patients, etc., or outgoing suppliers, etc., or to to you know, sort your payroll every month, then what's the point of having them?
• 1:01:32
  Michael: No, I agree.
• 1:01:33
  Michael: I think to some extent, maybe it's they don't want people to see how much they earn and how much they take home or what the profitability of the business is, um, particularly if it's doing well.
• 1:01:43
  Michael: Um for me, I it's great to share that with with staff.
• 1:01:46
  Michael: In fact, uh my recommendation recently to a clinic owner has been share it with everybody.
• 1:01:51
  Michael: Show people, because I think there's there's nothing like saying to people, this is what we make, this is what it costs.
• 1:01:57
  Michael: And so, no, you can't have that 20 grand a year pay rise because if we do that, we go under, you know.
• 1:02:02
  Michael: Or yes, actually we're doing incredibly well, so this is why we can do some nicer things.
• 1:02:07
  Michael: So uh yeah, I think that people are very scared about handing out financial data to anyone else in the business.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe you and I aren't scared because there's so much German in us, because I think that is a cult no, because I do sometimes think it's a cultural challenge as well, because here you don't really talk about how much you earn.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I remember having to learn that when I first came to England.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: You don't talk about how much you're earning.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking, wh why not?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is this a why is it a problem?
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, if if you don't wish to share your financial situation.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: As a manager for me, I I would then start with what am I working with?
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: What am I working towards?
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you can give me, you can give me a target.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: I want I want the clinic to turn over X, but okay, what are outgoings other than the ones I can see?
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know what you're doing behind my back.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how much you're putting through the business as expenses, you know.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, to not have a clear I mean, I I understand if they don't wish to show it completely, but you've got to be able to share enough so that operationally your manager can can generate a profit for you, you know?
• 1:03:12
  Michael: Yeah.
• 1:03:13
  Michael: Well, putting money through the business's expenses is obviously a fairly personal thing, and you do have to trust someone if you're gonna share that with them.
• 1:03:22
  Michael: But I know I know people who don't share that with their accountants.
• 1:03:25
  Michael: Well, you know, it is possible to do.
• 1:03:29
  Michael: All right.
• 1:03:30
  Michael: Okay, we last question, last question.
• 1:03:32
  Michael: And we've sort of covered it, but it's uh I'm interested in if you can give me, I don't know, it doesn't matter if it's three points, five points, but what makes a really good practice manager?
• 1:03:42
  Michael: What should people look for?
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: People skills, being able to talk to patients, staff, the owners, getting on with everyone.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so being approachable and having a good rapport.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, that's vital.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: Operationally, being able to to basically just I mean in any job, carry out the tasks that are required without much help.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think as a clinic owner, you don't want to constantly be holding their hand.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: So being able to work independently.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: What else?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think I'm I'm trying, yeah, I I think these are my main things.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: Just being approachable, being a person that they can see works well with the whole team and the patients, customers, whatever it may be, and being able to operate the business without without um too much dependence on the clinic owner is important.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then having sharing your vision or or working with you on the vision that you've got and being able to sort of be creative as well, like have some creative input, somebody that you can bounce off ideas with is important as well.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: Quite a few there's loads of things I think you'd be looking at looking for.
• 1:04:52
  Michael: I think one is being comfortable and confident in saying no.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: To you said it earlier.
• 1:04:59
  Michael: To to Yeah, to a clinic owner.
• 1:05:01
  Michael: So like I love stuff when they say no.
• 1:05:03
  Michael: And I think that if you're a clinic owner, you need someone to say no.
• 1:05:08
  Michael: That's just not a good idea, and here's why.
• 1:05:11
  Michael: I think if you have a practice manager who just says yes to everything and lets you get on with it, you don't have that second opinion with someone who says, actually, that's not a good idea.
• 1:05:22
  Michael: And there's a lot of people that aren't comfortable.
• 1:05:23
  Michael: I know you are, but I think there's a lot of people who aren't comfortable with saying, again, the German in you, but with a person saying no, that's not a good idea.
• 1:05:31
  Michael: And I think that's an important trait to have is that confidence.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: Agreed.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I would also flip it and say, if you have an idea and you really believe in it because you you've heard from patients firsthand that this is a you know, they they're looking for this, uh whether that's a new piece of equipment, you know, or a therapist coming to you, we really think you should invest in this.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got a director or clinical owner saying to you, no, we can't afford this, no, I can't see the point of that, and being able to say, No, I really think we should, and putting out a good plan, you know, putting it on paper, look, this is why I think this would be a good idea.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, also also being confident enough to push your own ideas.
• 1:06:06
  Michael: Yeah, yeah, totally agree.
• 1:06:08
  Michael: I'll add one funny one, which is something I've come across a bit, is don't hire someone who's the kind of person that reads management self-help books and suddenly as a business expert, wants to try a ton of ideas from the 1980s that they've read work.
• 1:06:23
  Michael: That's uh that's a bit of a funny aside, but uh I'm not a big fan of people reading the latest self-help management book on how to become a millionaire and starting to try and implement it because most most of the time it's nonsense.
• 1:06:35
  Michael: But anyway, that's an aside.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dare I say I've never read a single one.
• 1:06:39
  Michael: Do you know what?
• 1:06:40
  Michael: Nor have I.
• 1:06:40
  Michael: Uh so thank you very much for coming on.
• 1:06:42
  Michael: That's been really it's been really interesting, and uh hopefully people have got a bit out of that.
• 1:06:47
  Michael: Because I think it's it it it's easy to always listen to what cleaner kinders think, but listening to someone who, dare I say, really runs the business day to day um is is quite enlightening.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't go that far, but yeah, no, I'm I'm glad I'm glad we had the conversation.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was interesting for me too.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes it's yeah, you don't often sit down and reflect on what you do on a day to day basis and how it's shaping who you are.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, thank you very much.
• 1:07:14
  Michael: Thanks so much, cheers.
• 1:07:15
  Michael: Bye.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Michael.