Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #57 - Mastering Marketing Systems & Operations with Cassidy Lewis

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#57 - Mastering Marketing Systems & Operations with Cassidy Lewis · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Very few people appreciate the input.
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SPEAKER_01: Even there are marketers that just want to focus on the creative side.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like, we need more operators.
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SPEAKER_01: We need more people that can build and execute systems in marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: Because if you want to scale it, you have to have a system.
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SPEAKER_00: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: This is Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
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SPEAKER_00: This is your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
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SPEAKER_00: And today I am here with the wonderful Cassidy Lewis.
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SPEAKER_00: Cassidy is the CMO for Cooper and Hurley.
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SPEAKER_00: I've known her for many years.
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SPEAKER_00: She's an excellent gal.
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SPEAKER_00: She does a lot of speaking and she does a lot of
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SPEAKER_00: stuff on LinkedIn.
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SPEAKER_00: You can go and find her there and probably a ton of other places too.
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So I'll turn it over to Cassie so she can do a better job of
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introducing herself.
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SPEAKER_00: And today we're talking about marketing systems and marketing operations.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited.
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Tiffany.
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SPEAKER_01: So hey, everybody.
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SPEAKER_01: As Tiff said, my name is Cassidy Lewis.
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SPEAKER_01: I am the chief marketing officer at Cooper Hurley Injury Lawyers.
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SPEAKER_01: Been there coming up on eight
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years oh my gosh i know i know been in marketing for about
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double that and i fell
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in love with injury uh well legal marketing just because of how
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challenging it is
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and i get to pick tiffany's brain whenever i want so you can be
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jealous of me i
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love it when people pick my brain i don't i'm not too sure that
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many people see it
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SPEAKER_00: as a privilege but i saw i appreciate it
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SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we're talking about marketing systems, marketing operations.
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SPEAKER_00: I talk about it sometimes on LinkedIn,
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SPEAKER_00: although the thing I fear about posting it is that lawyers don't get it.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't see marketing as a department.
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SPEAKER_00: And so really they,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: most attorneys want to minimize how much they're spending on marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: They don't want to like grow big teams and grow big systems.
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Cause that just means you're having to maintain the investment
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of this marketing team.
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SPEAKER_00: But I feel like it's like as marketers, we should be talking about it.
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SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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And then the attorneys,
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you know,
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need to know like how we're running these departments.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I think people look at marketing and they see the output, right?
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The pretty creative,
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the video,
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the graphic,
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the event and or the increase in referrals.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a good one for as far as systems, the increase of referrals.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, yeah, that happened.
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Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And very few people appreciate the input.
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SPEAKER_01: Even there are marketers that just want to focus on the creative side.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like, we need more operators.
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SPEAKER_01: We need more people that can build and execute systems and marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: Because if you want to scale it, you have to have a system.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I,
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SPEAKER_00: I,
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SPEAKER_00: this is a story from a couple of years ago,
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SPEAKER_00: but I was working with a marketer who had marketing experience,
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SPEAKER_00: but it was really light.
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SPEAKER_00: I think they worked for a golf course briefly and it was,
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SPEAKER_00: we ended up actually having to let them go.
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SPEAKER_00: They weren't a good fit.
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And part of the reason for that is every meeting we had with
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them team meeting or
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SPEAKER_00: otherwise,
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SPEAKER_00: that's all they wanted to talk about was.
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SPEAKER_00: What color are we using on this?
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SPEAKER_00: You know, how can we change the logo?
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SPEAKER_00: Can we redesign this page?
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SPEAKER_00: And we were all like,
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SPEAKER_00: Hey,
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SPEAKER_00: we need you to call these chiropractors or make a mailing list or send,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: do something.
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SPEAKER_00: We don't get to spend all day talking about creatives.
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SPEAKER_00: And that for me is like the major misconception in marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: I think most people see it as Mad Men or something.
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SPEAKER_00: Never actually seen Mad Men.
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I haven't,
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but I keep being told that I'm supposed to watch it because I'm
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in marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: No,
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SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: I think that,
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SPEAKER_01: see,
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SPEAKER_01: and I haven't seen it as much from marketers,
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SPEAKER_01: but I have seen it,
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SPEAKER_01: but I've seen it because we're in legal from attorneys.
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SPEAKER_01: They want to talk about the color or the, even sometimes the placement.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's like, we're just not even, that's cool.
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SPEAKER_01: We can discuss it.
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There are just these 716 things that we have to check off to
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make sure that this
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SPEAKER_01: does what it's supposed to do.
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SPEAKER_01: There's the systems parts.
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SPEAKER_01: There's the operations part.
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I am currently hiring for a senior marketing manager and we are
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sort of leaning,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm working with a recruitment agency.
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SPEAKER_01: We're leaning towards project managers.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't, and maybe, maybe you and I dismiss it.
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And I say this sometimes the creative side,
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it's not that I don't appreciate it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just that it's the systems and ops that I need more than anything.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: I,
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SPEAKER_00: I work with law firms who don't have in-house graphic design teams,
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SPEAKER_00: like effectively where they're in-house graphic design team.
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SPEAKER_00: But even that's hard for us, you know, sharp cooking.
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And they have,
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I guess I would say like ugly marketing,
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but they have functional marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: ugly websites can still convert,
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SPEAKER_00: can still convince people like you're a professional.
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And so sometimes the more subjective things are just much,
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much less important.
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And,
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but then you have law firms that do have creative teams and
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they do get to spend more time.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you put your graphic design in the hand of a professional,
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SPEAKER_00: like somebody who knows it,
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SPEAKER_00: I find it's just better to trust the instincts of the graphic designer,
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SPEAKER_00: even over my own instincts.
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SPEAKER_00: And so like high level conversations about subjectivity and design,
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SPEAKER_00: like at the leadership level,
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I feel like gum up the works more than they actually help us
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get like a pretty
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SPEAKER_00: product.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned wanting to hire a project manager.
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SPEAKER_00: That's something that I was thinking about going into this podcast,
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SPEAKER_00: because I,
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SPEAKER_00: I myself pretty much do a lot of project management.
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I'm project managing for my clients teams,
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and I'm project managing for my team.
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SPEAKER_00: And you know,
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SPEAKER_00: it's,
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SPEAKER_00: it's most of what I do,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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delegating and assigning tasks and making sure things are
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staying on track.
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SPEAKER_00: How are you doing that now?
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SPEAKER_01: I'm doing it.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's not
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SPEAKER_01: It's not what I get paid to do as a CMO.
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I'm supposed to be focused on high-level strategy,
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strategic partnerships,
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things like that.
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SPEAKER_01: And for example, right now, we have four attorney events coming up.
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SPEAKER_01: And there's the event...
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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But then there's the promo items that I need to make sure that
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I will delegate,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: say,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: make sure this is ordered,
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SPEAKER_01: but then make sure this is ordered by this date.
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And then let me double check that contract to see how many
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people we can actually
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SPEAKER_01: fit in the room and what they'll set up.
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SPEAKER_01: And then, oh, did we order the valet, the catering?
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SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
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SPEAKER_01: It's just it's me right now.
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SPEAKER_01: And I don't.
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SPEAKER_01: get paid to do that.
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SPEAKER_01: And my boss has been very clear,
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SPEAKER_01: if you know Jim Hurley,
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SPEAKER_01: that I don't get,
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SPEAKER_01: that is not what he's paying me for.
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So yeah,
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right now I'm doing a lot of delegation and a lot of sort of
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task checking.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's,
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SPEAKER_00: I saw like a quote or somebody smarter than me yesterday,
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SPEAKER_00: like in a video or something,
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SPEAKER_00: basically saying like,
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SPEAKER_00: you can't be a high level thinker
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SPEAKER_00: And also be like in the weeds of it all.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's, that's so hard.
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And also why like so many attorneys like tell their marketers,
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bring me ideas.
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And then they don't because they're the marketers on the hook
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for implementing them.
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SPEAKER_00: They're in that execution mode.
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And so yeah,
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you need somebody who has the time to be that high level
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thinker.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's just end of story, I guess.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm sure.
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SPEAKER_01: Did you read Deep Work?
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SPEAKER_01: Have you read Deep Work?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's been a while, but yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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you cannot focus with that amount of intentionality without
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hours to give it.
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SPEAKER_01: So I will choose a day where I'll exit out an email,
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SPEAKER_01: I'll close my door,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: I'll put a note on my door,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: do not disturb.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's me and my whiteboard and I'm going at it.
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SPEAKER_01: And the best ideas come from that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I feel disconnected from my work.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I know I'm not being a good CMO, like right now in this season.
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SPEAKER_01: Because I haven't had one of those whiteboard sessions in a while.
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SPEAKER_01: Because I have right now,
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SPEAKER_01: since I told you I was out sick,
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SPEAKER_01: I have about 62 emails that need attention.
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SPEAKER_01: Not spam,
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SPEAKER_01: not like,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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like I've already gone through and cleared that out that need
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attention because I'm
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SPEAKER_01: the project manager right now.
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And again,
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if you are an attorney listening,
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please know that marketing is a lot of project.
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SPEAKER_01: Good marketing is a lot of project management.
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Your marketer is not lying when he or she said it took them X
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amount of time to get
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SPEAKER_01: something done.
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SPEAKER_01: It is a lot of work.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the reporting,
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SPEAKER_01: like that's the before,
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SPEAKER_01: but then the reporting after,
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SPEAKER_01: it's so many pieces.
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SPEAKER_01: There's so many pieces to it.
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SPEAKER_00: You touched on something that's interesting to me.
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SPEAKER_00: And I talked with Tony Albrecht about it.
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SPEAKER_00: How long does it take to write?
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And I asked him,
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like,
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hey,
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how long is it going to take you to write,
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like,
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LinkedIn posts?
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Like,
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is it something you can whip up in 15 minutes or do you have to
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sit with it?
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And he was like,
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oh,
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somewhere in the middle,
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you know,
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like 30 minutes per post,
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which...
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SPEAKER_00: You know,
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SPEAKER_00: if you're outside looking in,
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SPEAKER_00: you look at a LinkedIn post,
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SPEAKER_00: it's like this big,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: short sentences.
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SPEAKER_00: It doesn't seem like a lot,
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but to get the kind of results that he gets and that other
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people who are great at
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SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn get,
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SPEAKER_00: you have to,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: spend some time with each word and make it work well.
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SPEAKER_00: And for me,
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SPEAKER_00: getting back to the point I was going to make,
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SPEAKER_00: but I think when we ask marketers,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: how long did it take you to write this?
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SPEAKER_00: And we're talking like, let's say about a full email newsletter.
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They don't want to say it took them two hours,
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but it probably did take them two hours.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Easy.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Easily.
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And you're getting weird feedback from them because they don't
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want you to think
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SPEAKER_00: that they don't know how to write or they're taking too long to write.
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SPEAKER_00: And then,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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the attorneys get kind of an incorrect picture of how long
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creative work actually
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SPEAKER_00: takes.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: So,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: something that is always hard and it's hard for me to sometimes it's just
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documentation because I feel like a lot of people want to build
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like a marketing
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SPEAKER_00: manual for a firm,
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SPEAKER_00: but,
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and I'll hopefully my readers won't just immediately turn off
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when I say this,
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SPEAKER_00: but.
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I don't feel like a comprehensive marketing manual is possible
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for a law firm.
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SPEAKER_00: You get a lot of tasks and processes maybe,
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SPEAKER_00: but you're never going to get like,
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SPEAKER_00: here's how we do marketing and just all in one,
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SPEAKER_00: one shot,
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SPEAKER_00: one go.
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SPEAKER_00: And they use it too.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, how are you guys handling it?
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SPEAKER_00: Or do you disagree?
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SPEAKER_00: Am I just kind of being jaded about it?
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SPEAKER_01: No, I think it's so fluid.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think that, um,
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Even for like the tasks and processes,
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something should be added to that list all the time.
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SPEAKER_01: Like if you think about like the maximization of, right?
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SPEAKER_01: We're in the middle of vote for school.
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We give schools big dollars,
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like over $17,000,
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blah,
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blah,
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blah,
11:31
blah,
11:31
blah,
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right?
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SPEAKER_01: But that task list of things that gets done for that.
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should have increased from last year right we did those 22
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things what did we learn
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maybe one or two of those things come off but three things get
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added right so it's
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already fluid and then for sort of how we do marketing do not
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tell my team i told
11:57
SPEAKER_01: you this
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SPEAKER_01: So we do every November, their marketing action plan is due, right?
12:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's basically what you are going to do that next year.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's broken down by month, right?
12:13
SPEAKER_01: A lot of like questions I make my team, they're required to be curious.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: What are you going to challenge?
12:19
SPEAKER_01: What are you going to break that, you know, like things like that, right?
12:24
SPEAKER_01: But I'm thinking about doing it like,
12:26
quarterly as opposed to annually just because so much stuff
12:31
comes up like and then
12:32
we reroute like oh you know what we found out we thought we
12:36
were going to do this
12:37
in October we found out in February it's a no-go for whatever
12:42
reason or it doesn't
12:42
make sense or like AI overviews hitting us in what was it
12:46
February you know I don't
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SPEAKER_01: have I don't really have a lot of that in my strategic plan for 2026 but
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SPEAKER_01: But I'm paying attention to it.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm reading up on it.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, we found out, oh, and LLMs care a lot about badges.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: So, you know what I'm saying?
13:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like, should we be making this quarterly?
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SPEAKER_01: And again, I hope my team is not listening.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: But I think there's a lot of merit to what you're saying.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just marketing can be very fluid in a year's time.
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SPEAKER_00: It just can't be.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, digital things change all the time.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Things change and then they don't change because AI is still,
13:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:25
SPEAKER_00: good SEO practices and things like that.
13:27
So I came across a site last night and their offering for law
13:33
firms is we build
13:35
SPEAKER_00: your marketing automations.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: And,
13:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:38
SPEAKER_00: basically you come to them and say,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I want to build this automation and they'll do it.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of their pitch.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's a super strong pitch.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm always curious what the attorneys think,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:49
SPEAKER_00: as far as like what they're interested in,
13:51
SPEAKER_00: what they think they need help with.
13:53
But for me,
13:54
like automations and stuff like that,
13:56
like,
13:56
I just can't conceive of that.
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SPEAKER_00: If you're doing it at a certain scale,
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SPEAKER_00: like outsourcing that because within the automations that we make,
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SPEAKER_00: like we're constantly testing forms,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: good SEO companies do the same thing, always testing their forms.
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SPEAKER_00: And you're always looking for those breakpoints, right?
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: Just where things go wrong.
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't know,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: that's like,
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SPEAKER_00: how are like,
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are you guys like thinking about are you thinking about
14:22
automations a lot?
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SPEAKER_00: Are you building a lot?
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SPEAKER_00: Like, how are you guys handling that?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Most of our automations are around our database, right?
14:31
SPEAKER_01: So,
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and I'm not even gonna get into just having a database on our
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sides and the issues
14:37
SPEAKER_01: that it presents.
14:39
And yes,
14:40
I'm thinking about it,
14:41
but also running into every hurdle possible.
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SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't envision, and we're working with a company, right?
14:51
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't envision
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SPEAKER_01: Outsourcing that without me leading that project because he,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: Derek,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: the guy that we're working with,
15:02
SPEAKER_01: could never know when it was right.
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SPEAKER_01: Not on his best date and he's intelligent.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: So I'd just be interested,
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like what marketing automation are you talking about from
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contact form to lead
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SPEAKER_01: software or database?
15:18
SPEAKER_01: Like I just want to like what marketing automation are you saying?
15:23
SPEAKER_01: And then,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: the testing part,
15:24
SPEAKER_01: we have a report where all of our contact forms,
15:28
SPEAKER_01: our chats,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: our integrations get tested the first week of the month.
15:33
yeah and if you're not a part of building that do you know to
15:36
even go test that or
15:37
do you know when it fails yeah you have to test just constantly
15:44
test and invite you
15:47
know everyone who's looking at the site to openly point out
15:51
issues because on a big
15:52
SPEAKER_00: website a ton of stuff can happen that even the seo teams overlook and
15:58
SPEAKER_00: You know,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: SEO teams,
15:59
SPEAKER_00: website teams,
16:00
SPEAKER_00: whoever they are,
16:01
SPEAKER_00: vendors,
16:02
SPEAKER_00: their employees are not attorneys,
16:04
SPEAKER_00: paralegals,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: case managers,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: intake specialists,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: marketers,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: they're SEO specialists or whatever they do specialists.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: And so like,
16:14
SPEAKER_00: they know what they deliver in terms of product to,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: their clients,
16:20
SPEAKER_00: but they don't know marketing.
16:24
Well,
16:24
I don't want to say they don't know marketing a law firm,
16:26
but they don't know your needs.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: They don't know your specific needs.
16:29
And if you're doing a lot of dynamic marketing and you're doing
16:31
different things
16:32
SPEAKER_00: from your competitors,
16:34
SPEAKER_00: like you're just going to be hard for that vendor to handle,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: cause most vendors I feel like want to keep you on a template.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Um,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: so it's,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: it's,
16:43
you have to have this like synergy between the in-house team
16:46
and the external team
16:47
SPEAKER_00: just to bring it all together and to actually make it work.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Are you meeting with vendors like pretty regularly?
16:54
oh my gosh yeah yes i meet with my vendors my seo team i meet
16:58
with every two weeks
17:00
uh my ad agency who does my tv and billboards once a month yeah
17:05
we meet with them
17:06
and then i think it's coming up in the next two weeks i have
17:10
what's called a
17:11
SPEAKER_01: meeting of the minds and it's all of my vendors or my primary vendors and
17:18
SPEAKER_01: And I tell them that they are our board of directors.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: And so we get on a 90-minute Zoom.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: And I say, this is the goal.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Right now, our goal is to bring in top cases.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: Our goal is to expand to the peninsula.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: And then we need to continue this increase of referrals.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Our referrals have done extremely well these last two years.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: And how do we get better at it?
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Tell me what we need to do.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it applies.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you do TV, but maybe it applies to TV.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it applies to digital.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: What do we need to be doing?
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I think the synergy between in-house and the vendor makes sense,
17:55
SPEAKER_01: but also vendor-to-vendor synergy makes sense.
17:59
You may have three,
18:00
four,
18:00
five vendors working on your marketing,
18:03
but you have one brand.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: You have one voice.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: And that voice has got to be succinct.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Nothing frustrates me more than realizing we did something,
18:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:14
SPEAKER_01: in the community,
18:15
SPEAKER_01: for example.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: And I told digital, but I didn't tell TV.
18:20
And TV,
18:21
my TV team,
18:21
while they run ads,
18:22
they also talk to the TV stations.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And you know how you get like the local shows, like,
18:27
SPEAKER_01: Like Hampton Roads Live and all that.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: I didn't tell them.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: And so they didn't tell the Hampton Roads a lot.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: And I missed an opportunity.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: So just having synergy amongst them makes sense also.
18:40
There's just so much to keep up with like synergy between the
18:43
vendors and making
18:44
SPEAKER_00: sure the community efforts gets to this person gets to this person.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
18:50
SPEAKER_00: it's,
18:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:51
SPEAKER_00: it seems like,
18:51
SPEAKER_00: oh,
18:51
SPEAKER_00: it's just a simple email,
18:53
SPEAKER_00: but you're keeping up with it and doing it for every project.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: You're doing it for, you know, every vendor.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I could totally see,
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
19:03
SPEAKER_00: shoot,
19:03
SPEAKER_00: maybe myself,
19:04
I need a project manager and I can definitely see why you need
19:06
a project manager.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: So.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: How far do you plan ahead?
19:12
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've asked you this before,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: because every time I talk to you,
19:14
SPEAKER_00: my impression is like you're years planned in advance.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's just my impression.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is the best way to do things.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Planned ahead in the sense that,
19:30
SPEAKER_01: like I know right now today,
19:32
and I knew three months ago that we are going to do a client
19:36
event next fall.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: right?
19:38
SPEAKER_01: That's an example.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: I sit with my ideas because the creative,
19:45
SPEAKER_01: the idea of the event where it's going to be,
19:47
SPEAKER_01: again,
19:48
SPEAKER_01: that part's sort of easy to me.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: But like, how do I make it it?
19:54
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
19:55
SPEAKER_01: And so, like I said, we do that.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: That plan for the following year is done in November.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: So I'm typically about a year at least planned.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: But
20:08
jesus do things pop up all the time but yeah i do like to sit
20:14
with uh these ideas
20:16
because i'll have a goal like i know what my end goal is the
20:19
event is just or i
20:20
guess i know what the strategy the the event is just a tactic
20:22
it's just a tactic
20:25
okay we could do it we could not do it the strategy is still
20:28
there but yeah at
20:29
least at least a year in advance yeah and do you put it like do
20:34
you put it on a
20:35
SPEAKER_00: calendar project board like where are you storing that stuff
20:38
SPEAKER_01: The marketing action plan is the primary place for that.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's such a simple document.
20:44
I used to write these 10,
20:46
20,
20:50
30 page marketing plans for businesses and they wouldn't use
20:50
them.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: So I created a marketing action plan years ago and I still use it.
20:56
And I teach those that are in the CMO Academy how to build and
20:59
how to use it.
21:01
But it's literally just the month,
21:03
the date,
21:04
the project,
21:05
and did you complete it or not?
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's the steps, you know, it's a system.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: So let's say we'll take the event, the client event.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm going to do it in October.
21:17
of next year well by in march under referral marketing i have
21:27
something like book
21:28
the stage for the for the event you know what i mean so it's
21:33
the system parts that
21:35
often get missed the systematic or the operation parts that
21:38
often get missed
21:39
Or maybe in April I have,
21:41
did you book the host or did you book the music or things like
21:44
that?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Because this is a really big referral marketing event.
21:48
It's important enough to put into that marketing action plan
21:51
for me to make sure
21:52
SPEAKER_01: that it gets done in March or April or whatever it is.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Um,
21:58
SPEAKER_00: well,
21:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to change topics,
22:01
SPEAKER_00: but I did have a question about your marketers and I,
22:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
22:05
SPEAKER_00: I think it might be,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: have been a while since you guys have hired somebody new,
22:09
SPEAKER_00: but well,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: so question number one,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: like when you're bringing on a new marketer,
22:15
how much training are you doing for them or setting up for them
22:20
or putting them
22:20
SPEAKER_00: through?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: So there is an established 12-week program.
22:29
There's a three-month program that they do where we cover
22:34
different topics,
22:35
SPEAKER_01: things about the brand,
22:36
SPEAKER_01: how we say things,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
22:38
SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I think it takes an employee,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: a marketing team member,
22:44
about a year to really get acclimated to both the Cooper Hurley
22:49
injury lawyer's way
22:51
SPEAKER_01: and then also working with me and that standard of,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: no,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: no,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: no,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: no,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: no,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: no.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: We're not doing that last minute.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: We're not doing that haphazardly.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: We are going to do it the right way.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: We're going to do it on time and things like that.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: I think it takes time.
23:08
About a year of training and just seeing of seeing myself and
23:15
my team operate all
23:16
SPEAKER_01: of our events,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: both large and small or campaigns.
23:19
I'm saying events,
23:19
but or campaigns for a year to say,
23:22
OK,
23:23
that's how it gets done.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: And what about like, let's say you hire a graphic designer.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: You're not training them on graphic design.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: You're mostly training them on culture and processes, right?
23:37
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
23:38
So like if I had,
23:39
let's say I hired and we did for a while,
23:41
we had a creative coordinator.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: She did design videos, things like that.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: I can't teach you how to design, Tiffany.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: I can't write my name neatly.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: I can't teach you.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: But I can tell you, I can talk about the psychology of an ad, right?
23:55
SPEAKER_01: And how we need to make sure that our ads are not busy,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: that our ads are professional,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: that professional but casual.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: I can teach you that.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: But then I also have to teach you the systems part because...
24:08
SPEAKER_01: if that ad goes nowhere who cares right and so for me if for the creative
24:14
coordinator that we had in house her job was to also make sure
24:17
that that ad got all
24:19
of the places that it needed to get right so maybe it's going
24:22
to virginia lawyers
24:22
weekly it's going it's going to be attached to a press release
24:27
it's all of the
24:28
SPEAKER_01: places because i
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Design doesn't mean anything if it's not maximized.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: So that is one of the requirements that I have.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Maybe everybody doesn't have that on their designer.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: But if I'm bringing somebody in-house to do design,
24:40
you are also going to make sure that it gets maximized on all
24:45
of the platforms and
24:46
SPEAKER_01: the YouTube shorts or whatever it is.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Um,
24:52
do you ever buck up against like a new hire or somebody from
24:56
the legal operations
24:58
SPEAKER_00: team trying to insert themselves in marketing?
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Do you ever have to kind of set boundaries in that way?
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's been a while.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: It's been a while.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: So,
25:13
SPEAKER_01: and it wasn't,
25:17
we had an attorney one time that told one of my team members to
25:21
do something in our
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Google business profile and we got shut down.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Really?
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:26
You remember Google business profiles used to be even more
25:29
sensitive than they are today.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: You remember that we were struggling together.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't see it a lot.
25:37
And this is,
25:38
you know,
25:38
I feel like marketing departments and law firms are isolated.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Especially if you're a one man band.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: You're the odd one.
25:45
You're the only one in the firm that doesn't work on cases in
25:48
some way,
25:49
shape or form.
25:49
Even the receptionists are routing calls from insurance agents
25:54
and insurance
25:54
SPEAKER_01: adjusters and clients and all of that.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't deal with a lot of that now.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And he'll hear this and he'll say, I'll talk bad about it.
26:06
Well,
26:08
he has a marketing mind,
26:09
but sometimes it's like,
26:12
that's not the route that we're on.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: That's not the path that we're on.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Now,
26:16
that's what I hear about a lot from other marketers is we have
26:20
this clear vision,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: this clear strategy,
26:22
SPEAKER_01: this clear goal,
26:23
SPEAKER_01: and we are on it.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: And then a managing partner comes up,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: hey,
26:27
SPEAKER_01: why don't we spend $100,000 on this stadium partnership?
26:33
SPEAKER_01: Where's money coming from?
26:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we'll just pull it from LSAs.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think I've dealt with it in mass and in a long time, though.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Um,
26:47
I talked to marketers who deal with it and it's come up with me
26:50
before where,
26:50
and it's very similar actually that what happened recently is
26:54
very similar to your
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Google business listing,
26:56
SPEAKER_00: getting shut down temporarily.
26:58
But,
26:58
um,
26:59
you know,
26:59
we had like a creative that we were pushing out on social
27:01
media.
27:02
It was really low stakes and I don't like tend to micro analyze
27:06
these things.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Um,
27:08
SPEAKER_00: but somebody else at the firm,
27:09
SPEAKER_00: uh,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: somebody in operations went to the marketing manager and said,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: I need you,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: we need to change this on the ad and they changed it.
27:19
And then,
27:19
you know,
27:20
we saw the ad and actually it wasn't me who called it out.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: The attorney beat me to it.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, where the owner said like, why are we doing that?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, why we make that change?
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, so-and-so told me to at the firm.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, they're not in charge of marketing.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's not part of what they do.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: And so,
27:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: run it,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: run it through Tiffany,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: run it through Tiffany and poor you making changes.
27:41
And then,
27:42
very commonly,
27:42
like you have,
27:43
when a partner and her associate who.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: And it kills me because I want to help them.
27:50
We're marketing for the firm and by proxy,
27:54
we're marketing for the associate attorneys.
27:56
And I understand they're invested in their own future,
27:59
but they just don't know.
28:00
And they can come in and accidentally blow something up or make
28:05
a campaign go from
28:06
SPEAKER_00: this would have worked to nobody's going to care about this ad now.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like
28:14
SPEAKER_00: If you're like a solo,
28:15
if you're a small law firm and you have like maybe a marketing
28:20
person or a half
28:21
SPEAKER_00: marketing person,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: like you are in charge of the marketing,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: like you are in charge of all those decisions.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: And when you bring on like a marketing director or marketing coordinator,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: then they're in charge with you,
28:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:32
SPEAKER_00: you're still leading them.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: And then when you have a team becomes more siloed,
28:36
SPEAKER_00: like you guys have a Cooper and Hurley,
28:37
SPEAKER_00: it's probably easier to put those boundaries up and say like,
28:40
SPEAKER_00: no,
28:40
SPEAKER_00: like this,
28:41
SPEAKER_00: we're the marketing department.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think when you're... Oh, go ahead.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm sorry.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: I was going to say that trust thing,
28:48
because one thing that I hear a lot is the marketers don't feel
28:53
like their managing
28:54
SPEAKER_01: partner trusts them.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: Like the managing partner is still the CMO or the marketing director.
29:00
And it's such a balance because I don't want my doctor doing my
29:06
plumbing.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: My doctor's a great doctor, but he's not a great plumber.
29:09
And I say that to say,
29:11
you can be a great attorney and a great business owner.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: That does not necessarily make you a great marketer, right?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: But in that same breath,
29:19
what I tried to explain to the marketers too is that you have
29:22
to earn their trust.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: You are speaking for their brand.
29:25
We,
29:26
as the marketers,
29:26
we speak for the attorney more than the attorney does,
29:30
right?
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Our ads, the LinkedIn posts, the social media posts, whatever it is.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: And so you do have to earn their trust.
29:39
And I think,
29:39
again,
29:40
why I don't see it as much is because I've been there going on
29:43
eight years.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: And it's not that, you know, I say, bring me your ideas.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: Anybody can bring me a good marketing idea, right?
29:50
SPEAKER_01: But if I say, that's not the way we're going.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: That's not how we're going to word that.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: No, we're not going to put your dog in the commercials this time.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: They're like, okay, well, you know, I think it's good.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't.
30:05
So there has to be sort of this balance where you are showing
30:08
consistency.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think attorneys are just naturally trusting people.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: They're not.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: They're not, right?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: And so it's just like, what does that balance look like?
30:18
And it's also hard from the marketer standpoint to earn your
30:22
trust if the campaigns
30:24
SPEAKER_01: that are set in motion,
30:25
SPEAKER_01: you keep derailing.
30:28
So that tug of war that I've seen within law firms more than
30:33
any other industry is not fun.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: So how, how systematized is, is your day?
30:42
Like,
30:43
are you following your own processes or is it like meeting to
30:47
meeting different each day?
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Like how do you, how are you systematizing setting up your time?
30:52
SPEAKER_00: In my mind, Tiffany, I'm very systematized.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: I do have a lot of meetings.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: I have some constants though, right?
31:02
SPEAKER_01: I think at CMO level,
31:04
SPEAKER_01: when you run a five person marketing department,
31:07
SPEAKER_01: you have a 50 plus law firm,
31:09
SPEAKER_01: leadership team.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: There are things that you just can't systemize.
31:14
But on Mondays,
31:16
me in the marketing department are going to meet at 11 a.m.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't move that.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: It is rare.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've probably moved that meeting twice this year.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: If I'm not there, somebody else from the marketing department runs it.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: On Fridays, the intake team is going to meet at 10 a.m.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: And then once a month,
31:36
I am going to sit down with each member of the marketing
31:39
department and then my
31:41
SPEAKER_01: intake director for their power meetings.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: So there are parts of my day or week that are very, very systemized.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And then...
31:52
SPEAKER_01: I think out of the blue,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: we are going to do ice cream trucks at firehouses,
31:59
SPEAKER_01: mental health buildings,
32:02
SPEAKER_01: schools as teachers go back.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: And then we got like three of those in a week.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, we're going to do it.
32:09
We're going to just go on a tour and have fun and get good PR
32:14
behind it and things like that.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: So as much as I'm down playing creative,
32:20
SPEAKER_01: I still very much so am a creative and want to take advantage of a good
32:23
SPEAKER_01: opportunity.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Because if you're too systemized,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: if you're too rigid,
32:27
you don't allow yourself to take advantage of the opportunities
32:29
that are presented.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'm probably 50-50.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: I'd be interested in what my team would say, but I'm probably 50-50.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: Part of me feels like just completely disorganized,
32:41
but also I'm very organized because I do some of the same
32:46
things each week.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: And really like that's the funny part of owning my own business,
32:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:51
SPEAKER_00: the small little company is I still very much work.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I work longer than nine to five.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: I work like eight to five or something like that.
32:59
And sometimes like an hour or two in the evenings if there's
33:02
something I want to get done.
33:03
And so like,
33:04
you know,
33:04
this entrepreneurship for me still feels like a job because I'm
33:07
a CMO.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm a CMO for firms and I'm,
33:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:10
SPEAKER_00: a business owner and I just have so many things I have to touch on.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: And I have to have systems to be able to do it all.
33:18
And maybe some of these systems I take for granted because I've
33:20
been using them for so long.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: And so for me, like it just happens.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: And some of the things I'm like super proud of.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
33:27
SPEAKER_00: well,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
33:28
SPEAKER_00: honestly,
33:29
SPEAKER_00: one thing that I'm proud of is simple as this note taker that I have.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:34
And it creates automatically like with its AI doodad creates
33:38
action items for me.
33:39
And I have like an automation set up to where depending on who
33:43
I'm meeting with the client,
33:45
SPEAKER_00: those action items will be sent directly to my project management board.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of times I don't have to take meeting notes.
33:52
After the meeting,
33:52
I just go back to the project board and start assigning and
33:55
delegating out.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: saves a few steps,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
34:00
and then also the project board has automation to where if I
34:03
give it a little bit
34:04
SPEAKER_00: of information on the product,
34:06
SPEAKER_00: it'll create like a full project description,
34:09
SPEAKER_00: like description,
34:10
SPEAKER_00: action items,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: checklist,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: all this stuff.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I really do love these AI systems.
34:16
And so like you build those things and start to take it for
34:18
granted that they're
34:19
SPEAKER_00: working behind the scenes,
34:20
SPEAKER_00: but I'm super proud of those.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: And I live by them.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Cause you,
34:24
SPEAKER_00: you have to,
34:25
SPEAKER_00: when you're,
34:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:26
SPEAKER_00: you're,
34:26
SPEAKER_00: you're doing so much,
34:27
SPEAKER_00: you're meeting tons of people you're managing,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: you're,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: you're managing like five people,
34:32
SPEAKER_00: right.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Or more than that.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, it is four technically right now, three and a half.
34:38
We have a someone part-time and then we'll,
34:41
and then there's a three person intake team.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, seven all together.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: I thought you were partly managing intakes at least.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I manage marketing and intake.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: Well,
34:52
SPEAKER_00: just because I'm curious,
34:54
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
34:55
SPEAKER_00: you meet with each person once a month to go over their power meeting.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is that?
35:00
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing in that one?
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: So we look at their numbers for the month.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Everybody has numbers and reports that they are responsible for.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: So we talk about the anomalies, good, bad, or in between.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: We talk about what they have in their marketing action plan.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: What got done the month before,
35:20
SPEAKER_01: what they're working on,
35:21
SPEAKER_01: and are they prepared to handle the month after?
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And then a good chunk of the meeting,
35:28
SPEAKER_01: if the meeting is 45 minutes,
35:30
SPEAKER_01: because they're not terribly long,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: let's say the meeting is,
35:33
SPEAKER_01: well,
35:34
SPEAKER_01: to make it even,
35:34
SPEAKER_01: let's say the meeting is an hour.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: 30 minutes is them looking for approvals or like they are spitballing.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Hey, look, this is what I want to do with this campaign.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Do we have resources for X, Y and Z?
35:47
SPEAKER_01: Could I have some money?
35:48
SPEAKER_01: Can you reach out to that one person that does?
35:50
SPEAKER_01: But you know what I mean?
35:51
Like kind of I'm in the middle of this campaign and now I need
35:54
my boss to help.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: It's a good shot,
35:56
SPEAKER_01: which helps because they,
35:59
SPEAKER_01: instead of them coming in all day,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: interrupting their work day,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: they're not interrupting my work day.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm here for.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: But just stopping at mid-work, they bring it all to me at once.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: But those are really, really good meetings.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And so you do team meetings once a week?
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Team meetings once a week.
36:19
You're doing power meetings with each individual once a month
36:23
and then meeting with
36:25
SPEAKER_00: the SEO team every two weeks,
36:27
SPEAKER_00: you said?
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: Are you, you're also doing like leadership meetings?
36:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm on the leadership team.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: That's once a week for 90 minutes every Tuesday.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: So just,
36:40
SPEAKER_00: just out of curiosity,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: cause I know a lot of law firms are different,
36:43
but what percentage of those leadership meetings are about
36:46
marketing versus
36:47
SPEAKER_00: everything else?
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Not a lot are about marketing.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: So we follow EOS system.
36:55
And one of the things about EOS is it's only a leadership
36:58
problem or issue,
37:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry,
37:01
SPEAKER_01: if it involves three or more people for our leadership team.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: And most of the marketing gets handled between me and my boss, Jim.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: However,
37:11
one of the things that he put on the issue list to discuss is
37:14
why don't we discuss
37:15
SPEAKER_01: marketing more?
37:17
SPEAKER_01: And we have, it's not that we haven't.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not that we have not.
37:20
It's just,
37:21
we get in there and I'm trying to solve for X and X is a really
37:25
complex issue.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, we need more A cases in the door.
37:31
And then I have this large data set in my mind and I have all
37:34
of our media,
37:35
SPEAKER_01: our marketing mediums.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, yeah, Cass, I think you got it.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: I think you got it.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: And not even, that's not even like a, like a,
37:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not like a pat on my back as much as it is I'm waist deep.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: But we have IDS'd some marketing things.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: But to answer your question, not a lot.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
37:57
SPEAKER_00: that almost kind of makes me nervous,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: the boss saying like,
38:00
SPEAKER_00: why don't we talk about marketing more?
38:01
Because the thought that comes to my mind is like,
38:04
well,
38:04
what do you want to talk about?
38:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I record this podcast every week.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: I can talk endlessly about marketing.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, are we having a casual conversation?
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Is there a specific problem?
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Or is just the question like, we want more growth.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: How do we get it?
38:20
SPEAKER_00: And that last one is,
38:22
I feel like the question that's on when they say we want to
38:25
talk marketing more
38:26
SPEAKER_00: often is the question that's on their mind.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: They just want to see something new,
38:30
SPEAKER_00: something bigger,
38:31
SPEAKER_00: something groundbreaking,
38:33
SPEAKER_00: but like,
38:33
SPEAKER_00: you don't get there by,
38:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
38:38
I feel like you don't get to the groundbreaking idea in
38:41
meetings,
38:42
I guess.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe you do like, I guess that's hard to say, but you
38:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like the notion of a marketing idea, like
38:53
SPEAKER_00: We get so in the weeds with these systems and processes.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes an idea is like,
38:59
SPEAKER_00: oh,
39:00
let's turn on lookalike audiences for this Facebook ad campaign
39:04
and see if it
39:04
SPEAKER_00: performs better.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: And then you do, and it does.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, great, that was a great idea.
39:09
And then sometimes an idea is like,
39:11
let's do an ice cream truck tour,
39:12
which is adorable.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, that's great too.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: And then, or an idea is let's do TV.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: In my mind, they're just like,
39:21
SPEAKER_00: very few mediums in which we can reach our client.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: And we're just limited in what they'll respond to,
39:29
SPEAKER_00: where we can advertise,
39:31
SPEAKER_00: what we're allowed to say,
39:33
SPEAKER_00: and I guess what'll actually get results and what'll get clicks.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: I often struggle with like, oh, let's get more marketing ideas.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what kind of ideas?
39:44
SPEAKER_00: How big?
39:45
SPEAKER_00: How big are we talking here?
39:47
SPEAKER_01: No, you're right.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: The idea that a marketing,
39:50
SPEAKER_01: this grandiose marketing idea can come out of a marketing meeting,
39:53
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's ever happened.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: It's been in those spaces where we are in deep work,
39:58
SPEAKER_01: like something new,
39:59
SPEAKER_01: because we are limited in mediums.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: But no new strategies, but a new big tactic.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like Vote for a School, the one I was talking about earlier.
40:09
That came,
40:11
I was up,
40:11
and I wish I had the note,
40:14
the timestamp on the note,
40:16
if I remembered it.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: It was like 1 a.m., and I was like, this is the goal.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: This is the strategy, and this is how we're going to get there.
40:23
yeah it is our biggest one but it's still a tactic but it took
40:26
me like in deep
40:28
thought for a while by myself going you know ping-ponging ideas
40:33
that's not going to
40:33
work that's not going to work that could work but somebody does
40:37
have to be wasted
40:38
to really be a part of the conversation yeah when you said
40:43
let's talk marketing
40:44
systems like what did you have something specific in mind that
40:46
you wanted to go
40:47
SPEAKER_00: over
40:49
SPEAKER_01: I think we've covered it in ways.
40:52
I just think that there should be an appreciation for the ops
40:56
side of marketing.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: You look at something as simple as referral marketing, right?
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Like attorney referral marketing.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yeah, we're going to get attorney referrals.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: How?
41:07
SPEAKER_01: How?
41:09
SPEAKER_01: We're going to do an ad in VLW.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: That's one thing.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Like our attorney referral, it's half marketing, half intake.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, so it literally involves multiple departments.
41:20
If you include the attorneys that it involves,
41:21
it includes three departments.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And you think it's, oh, the attorney referral marketing program.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but does intake have the referral list so that they can refer out?
41:32
Are we keeping track of when we give the attorneys gifts so
41:36
that we don't re-gift?
41:38
SPEAKER_01: Like all of the pieces.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: Then the reporting.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Are we sending the attorneys the right type of cases that they want?
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Are they sending us the right type of cases that we want?
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Who's taking who to lunch?
41:48
SPEAKER_01: How much have we made in referral fee?
41:51
SPEAKER_01: All of the things.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So that was my,
41:53
SPEAKER_01: when we were talking about it on LinkedIn,
41:56
SPEAKER_01: it's just,
41:57
I want people to really appreciate the ops and the systems part
42:03
of marketing
42:03
SPEAKER_01: because it's so important.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: That's what takes up all our time.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: I, I agree so much.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: And I,
42:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
42:11
SPEAKER_00: specifically with referrals,
42:12
SPEAKER_00: I feel like people think of referral programs,
42:15
like a letter or like a website or a landing page or an email
42:21
sequence and
42:22
SPEAKER_00: automation.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, like it's a lot of times spreadsheets.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: and keeping up with people,
42:29
SPEAKER_00: relationship building,
42:30
SPEAKER_00: making sure we're,
42:32
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
42:33
SPEAKER_00: showing appreciation,
42:34
SPEAKER_00: sending gifts,
42:35
SPEAKER_00: all that good stuff and keeping track of all of it.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like when a lot of people ask for like,
42:40
SPEAKER_00: I need a referral program,
42:41
SPEAKER_00: they have in mind a deliverable,
42:43
SPEAKER_00: not realizing it's a system of many moving parts that's
42:47
So much bigger than just here are your more referrals or here's
42:51
your referral program.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: There,
42:53
there are things that I can do to help attorneys like better
42:56
nurture their referral
42:57
SPEAKER_00: list,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: write a better newsletter,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: all that good stuff.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: But like,
43:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:02
SPEAKER_00: you still need the whole system and it's a fractional,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm just limited to what I can build,
43:07
SPEAKER_00: you know?
43:08
SPEAKER_00: And you need,
43:09
SPEAKER_00: that's why I tell people you need an in-house marketing team,
43:12
even if it's just like a coordinator or somebody for the small
43:14
firms now for Cooper
43:15
SPEAKER_00: inherently like,
43:17
SPEAKER_00: obviously you guys are,
43:18
SPEAKER_00: you guys need a full team,
43:19
SPEAKER_00: which is nice.
43:22
Well,
43:22
Cassie,
43:22
I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and talking with
43:25
me today.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: I was looking forward to speaking with you and talking to you again.
43:29
And well,
43:30
I guess where do you want people to look you up if they want to
43:33
find you?
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
43:35
So if you're looking to send a Virginia injury referral,
43:38
you can just go to cooperhurley.com.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: But if you want to see me talk all marketing,
43:44
SPEAKER_01: you can go to my LinkedIn,
43:46
SPEAKER_01: it's linkedin.com backslash Cassidy,
43:49
SPEAKER_01: the marketer.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
43:51
SPEAKER_00: That's a cool URL.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much again.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: And we'll be talking to you all soon.