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What Is Behavioral Email Automation and Does It Work? · Imperfect Marketing

• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Kendrick Corman.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a coach, consultant, or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kendra Corman, and I am super excited to be joined by Austin today and talking about something that I love, which is email marketing.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And this time we're gonna be talking about behavioral email automation, which I know a lot of people don't do just because it's so difficult.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm very excited to be jumping into this topic with Austin.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Austin, thank you so much for joining me.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get into this?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: What drove you to do behavioral automation and some AI stuff along with it?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, because I was trying to grow my own business, right?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I don't run an email marketing agency, but uh about I don't know, three years ago, maybe a little bit longer than that, uh, I was really just looking about how to get more clients for our own agency.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up in some WhatsApp groups with some really, really big players in the email space, people who make instantly and smartly people who built these platforms, right?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I was able to learn from like the GOATs, you know what I mean?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh because of that, I was able to implement, you know, those strategies within our own company.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then because the groups were all, for the most part, cold email agencies, and we're just like a software development firm.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there was a lot of crossover where people actually needed help software-wise, that we were able to provide, which allowed us to then give our services, helping out these cold email agencies, enabling them to do much, much better work.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of how we jumped into it.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love that story because yeah, so many marketing experts came from out of, I guess, necessity for lack of a better term, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're trying to grow our own businesses.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's how how people fell into marketing because they found something that worked that might work for somebody else.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's great.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: So just for everybody listening, what is behavioral email automation and how is that different from regular email sequences?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would start by saying I'm definitely not an expert.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have some reps in, but I'm still learning every day, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we all are.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: We all are.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's all good.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: The difference is like, okay, so if you go to make a sequence, and even with AI, a lot of business owners and and SDRs that I see who approach cold email, like their big idea is like, okay, let's take this list and let's have AI come up with copy and then reach out to this list.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's that's really cool, but there's a lot of nuances and things you can do to make it better.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, just telling AI, hey, I want you to to build a cold email.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be between X amount of words and X amount of things.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's one thing.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: But if you could first take AI and then decide, hey, who are the biggest cold email experts out there?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: You've got like Eric Taylor, you've got, I mean, you've got you've got a lot of people.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: You grab all their videos off of YouTube, and then you tell AI, hey, I want you to make like a playbook of all the best experts in cold email.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do they do?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do they write emails?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then put that together.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden, now you have a framework on how to write the emails, which is good.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's already a step way beyond what most people do.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not everything.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: The next thing is okay, what information or what data can I give the cold email so that it's not a Swiss Army knife?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, it's the right tool for the right job.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in that case, it's like, okay, so you could ask Claude Code, you can use Appify, uh, you can grab data from a million different sources, it doesn't matter how.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea is like, can you grab information about what jobs the company's posting?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Could you grab information about what blogs they're posting?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe when their last funding round happened, maybe you can even go more specific and say, hey, the person we're reaching out to, what did they post on LinkedIn over the last two months?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any significant event that happened, you know, within their life or within their business that might be worth mentioning, right?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so you take all that information along with the playbook, feed that into AI, and then all of a sudden you have a campaign that's hyper-personalized at scale, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so you could do trigger-based.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, hey, every time a company is petitioning to raise for funding, or every time a company posts a certain job or something that signals that they have XYZ problem, therefore we can reach out to them.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or you could do route B where it's like, okay, we're reaching out to anybody at any time, but what information could we use to stand out from everybody else?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's kind of how you would put that together.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because that just adds so much personalization to it, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: It feels more relevant.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you're doing it at scale because you're having AI help you with it.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that again, AI is not replacing you in that, right?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the insights looking at what that audience is and what's triggered them to do something to add your knowledge and your expertise to it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So super cool.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I really like how you do that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think one of the things that a lot of people struggle with, though, is that AI written feel.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think my stuff feels AI written.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is edited, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I've written stuff that said it was 100% AI, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when I've run it through the detectors and I've had AI write stuff where AI said it was 0% AI and AI wrote it, right?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't necessarily think that everything that AI generates is is robotic or or like junky in its feeling.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: What is your advice on how people can avoid that piece?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a couple of things you can do to get better inputs right off the bat.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, understanding what AI to use, right?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people they'll default Gemini, default ChatGPT, default cloud, whatever.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, each AI is better at different things.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this is this is more where I'm an expert, is because I mean we do software development, we work with AIs all the time.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we understand which AIs work better in which situations.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so when it comes to writing human-like, Claude by default will do better.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: At least Sonic.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love Claude.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Claude is good, right?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Not Haiku.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Haiku's a little, I mean, it's decent, but it's it's better for other stuff.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Sonnet and Opus, definitely.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I played around with Fable before they took it down, and uh that was amazing too.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: But but um, but definitely Claude writes more human-like.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So immediately if you filter out Chat GBT, it's gonna be better.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be 100%.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: The next thing is is there's skills that you can get for Cloud Code, right?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's a skill called the humanizer skill that Claude will every time it writes text, it'll write it using certain rules.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it's done writing in text, it'll pass it through those rules to make sure that it passes 100%.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's removing the dashes, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which everybody that's like a telltale sign, like you're using AI, right?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Except for the fact that I used M-dashes before AI.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there is that.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I know just say it, but I didn't use seven of them in one paragraph.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I got it.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So running it through the that alone will make a huge difference.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then running back to what I said before, the playbook, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: The playbook, not only are you grabbing what the experts do, but you're grabbing examples from the experts, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so by giving the AI a solid knowledge base of like, this is what success looks like, it tries to mimic that better, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so the idea is using the right AI, giving it the right playbook, and then running it through a humanizer skill, right?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: You will immediately come out with much, much better outputs that sound quite human.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So people that are scared of Claude code, um, and I think that there's a lot of them out there.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know that like I've used Claude Code a little bit, but I do get hesitant because I'm trying to import skills and I don't want any prompt injections and all those crazy things that people are doing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they could still do it, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: To an extent, you can leverage the skill in co-work too, can't you?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or no?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really use co-work, so I can't answer that question.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have not done it, but I think it it said skills at some point.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that there might be a way to put that in there.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have to find out.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll put it in the show notes.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you're worried about that, you could always make your own skills, you know.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but I'd have to make my own skills.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you tell it to make it for you, right?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, there you go.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the reasons that people hesitate to do behavior email marketing is because it's hard and not from a difficult standpoint, but more from the setup standpoint as to like what behaviors are you looking for?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I know you talked a little bit about like funding as one.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are some other behaviors that you would look to or that you look to for prospects in this in the B2B space to identify what you could do from an email marketing standpoint?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, this would 100% depend on the offer and the vertical you're going after, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for us, for example, we work with legacy data platforms specifically.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: We work with uh SaaS products that have out-of-date code, out-of-date processes, and we help them modernize what they have going on.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And a good way to find that is first to get a list of a bunch of SaaS websites and then to make a scraper that using Glitco, you can just text and be like, hey, I want you to do this.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't really have to know how to program as much anymore.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, determining if their platform is old or not, if their code is running on depreciated libraries, that's one way.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Another way is okay, so we're not sure what their platform is built on.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say, okay, what can we then do?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if a company is hiring for data entry jobs, there's a high probability that there's something wrong in their internal processes or in their system that we could potentially fix, right?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not because we've we've tried doing the like, okay, you know, they're hiring for for a developer, so why don't we go and offer development services?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: But there's some fundamental problems with that approach.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: The the first problem is they plan their budget months in advance, right?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time you're reaching out to them, that decision's been made and passed down through the C-level suite and everybody.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to get them to change course is insanely hard.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Second, a lot of these jobs that are being posted, at least in the tech world, come from recruitment agencies.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't even know what company they're hiring for.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: You just know that there's a job that has this position and pays as much, right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So with those two problems in mind, the campaigns we have run based on job triggers have never really done well.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of the same with funding.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like once they have the money, the budget's already been planned.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: They couldn't have gotten the money without having a plan, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to hit them up before they get the money, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: When they're starting to raise or when, or you know, you could think like, okay, they just they did their seed round here.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Similar companies generally take, I don't know, two, three years or whatever to go for the next funding round.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hit them six months before.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: You see what I'm saying?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So again, this is all very industry specific, though.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it really kind of depends on on who you're reaching out to and what the reason is, and then being creative about what are symptoms of the problem that they might have that we can solve, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: How can we determine those symptoms?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: How can we find those symptoms based on the language they use in their marketing or in their job posts or in whatever it is they have going on, whatever systems they're using, to be able to determine, hey, they have this problem and we can help them with that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think understanding your customer, understanding your product or service and what drives it, I think is huge, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: To do this the right way.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people want to skip that step.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've said this in numerous episodes, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have to understand your customer.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: It is a baseline.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the best way to do that is by talking to them.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know we all just want to ask AI or Google and figure out how someone would respond to something, but to really understand their words and how they they react and stuff, just pick up a phone and interview a few people.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: People will talk to you, especially when it's about them.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a fantastic way to do it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not as hard as you would think it is if you understand your customer, your service.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I love the fact that you're like, hey, the job search ones aren't getting it because they already have a plan.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: They already have the budget.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's like pushing a boulder uphill to change their direction.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so just so important there.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that you did, right, is YouTube plus some automated email to grow your agency without any paid ads or a sales team.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about that.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, my background, I come from more like e-commerce type sales stuff.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I originally started entrepreneurship.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did drop shipping before drop shipping was cool.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: This was like 11 years ago now.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So over a decade.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I never I never had a traditional sales background.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I never went to school for sales, I never had a sales role in any company whatsoever.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when I jumped into things, I was kind of like like a crash course of like do this and fail, and then do that and fail.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I made a shitload of mistakes along the way.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's the best way to learn.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Our biggest, first biggest clients originally came off of upwork and referrals.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Once we figured that out, and we figured out, okay, this this is who we would really want to work with, which that took years.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: It took like like three years for us to just figure out like this is this is our niche, this is what we do, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: The next thing is like, okay, trying to figure out how they respond, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so when it comes to enterprise level sales, um, like, yeah, you could do ads.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just they're not as effective as doing direct outreach, right?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I just went all in, to be honest with you.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just read a bunch of books, I talked to a bunch of people, I got some mentors, yeah, and I freaking threw crap at the wall to try to figure out what would work, honestly.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh over that time I figured out some things and others not.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I can tell you what we're doing now is definitely different than what we did before.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still doing the network marketing piece, which is huge.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: So um, me just being active in certain communities, being super helpful, has landed a lot of opportunities.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still doing that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the YouTube, believe it or not, it has resulted in inbound, but more inbound talent, not necessarily inbound leads, which is also good.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, really great when it comes to hiring and stuff.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not exactly business, right?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm doing is ABM campaigns, account-based marketing campaigns.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's finding these companies, like I said, who are uh who have these symptoms of a problem we can solve, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Then writing hyper personalized emails.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: These campaigns take me weeks to build.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not just a couple hours, like a traditional cold email campaign you could probably do in like an hour or two, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: These take me weeks.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um basically, yeah, we're gonna email them, we're gonna call them, we're gonna LinkedIn them, we're gonna send them physical mail, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna hit them on all angles, and not just one person, but several person, several people at the company, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's what we're currently doing.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: But also keep in mind our ideal customer is more of an enterprise level client, you know, they're like$10,000,$20,000 a month retainer clients.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you have a product that's like sub 10K, if you're reaching out to companies that, you know, that aren't necessarily at above three to five million dollars a year, it's a lot easier.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: You could do cold email, it would probably work a little bit better just doing that, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: But in my industry, only doing cold email, I mean, first of all, there's so many software development agencies out there just blasting everybody.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to cut through the noise and you have to get their attention.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why for me, it's more casting a wider net across multiple platforms works a lot better.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, again, breaking through, casting that wide net, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hitting people multiple times, even if they seem to find things on different platforms, I think is really helpful too, right?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it just reiterates who you are and and what you do so that it reminds them, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And keeps you top of mind.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because that top of mind awareness is just so, so important.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: When people are starting with this, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they understand their customer, they understand these pain points, they understand the process of their customers.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's the biggest mistake that they're making when it comes to this?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think number one is not testing enough, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I see a lot of people they get apprehensive.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is across the board.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be cold email or LinkedIn, it could be ads as well or whatever.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I see a lot of my peers, they'll like, they'll start Facebook ads and they know they have to spend like$5,000 just to get the data to see if it works.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they spend like$2K or$1K, and they're like, oh, I stopped ads because it's not working.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, how many ads did you launch?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, oh, you know, I tested five creatives.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and then you hear Alex Ramosi, it's like, okay, when how many creatives does he test?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: He'll test 180 creatives on one offer.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, you see the difference there, right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like huge.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so not only is it not enough testing, but not enough volume, right?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll talk to a lot of people who are doing cold email as well.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, yeah, I'm I'm trying cold email, it's just not hitting, you know.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, first of all, how's your infrastructure?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, they don't know.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: They and and that's a fundamental problem with cold email is like having good infrastructure is is a really big thing, and a lot of people don't understand that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so they'll just like hook up 50 emails on one domain or something, send them out, like, yeah, you're gonna go in the spam.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are you even delivering?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know if you're delivering?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's number one, because if you go to spam, it doesn't matter what you say.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: But number two, it's like, how many emails are you sending every single day?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, oh, you know, 50, 100, or whatever.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, well, there you go.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know how many emails it takes to get like a positive response?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: A lot.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're getting, you know, like a one to three percent positive response, like you're doing all right.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not bad.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you get more than that, you're doing really, really, really well.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so you have to send thousands of emails, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thousands and thousands of emails to test, like just testing one TAM, one offer.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: You want to do about 500 leads, about 2,000 emails.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's one test, one copy test, one hook test, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: One angle test.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you really want it to work, you have to spend the time to do multiple, multiple tests.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the main problems.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Experimentation is key, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Testing, um, just going back through things is so, so important.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people um underestimate the amount of time that they have to take for things to to work, to see if they work, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes things need to build up and they're not immediate, especially at some of our B2B price points, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, someone's not gonna see one ad on from you on Facebook and say, yes, I would like to give you$10,000 a month or more, you know?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because they want more information and you're able to give that to them while building a relationship over email and different channels, right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that they feel like they know you.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because people do business with people they know, like, and trust, um, which I think is so, so important.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Austin, for your time.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this has been a fantastic conversation.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: I loved the lived experience.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I loved how you shared your real experiences with all of this.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that um a lot has been shared and we can learn a lot from you.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I really appreciate you sharing that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Before I let you go, though, I have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that this show is called Imperfect Marketing, because marketing is anything but a perfect science.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned along the way?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the biggest one is to just never stop, right?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: When we started the company, it would be like I do marketing until we got too many clients and then I work on fulfillment, right?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And stop the marketing.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then the whole engine has to restart.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so having the consistency to always go 100% on marketing, regardless of what happens on the fulfillment side.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously you try to fix it as best as you can, but make sure you have a really, really good team in place to where if things do get chaotic, they can handle most of the load and and don't stop trying to find clients.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because once you have momentum, it's really easy to ride that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: But once you lose momentum, it's really hard to start it again.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: When I when I started my company, it was every other week was really busy.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I would have a really busy week with meetings.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was so busy that week with meetings and business development that the next week, I didn't I didn't have any time that week to set up meetings for the next week.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I would have no meetings.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I have no meetings, no, nothing to so I'd be like, okay, let's set up meetings.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just this cycle, right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it just took forever.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: It took double the amount of time because yeah, every week I was starting from scratch and that ebb and flow, you want to try and and cut that out.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can stay consistent, um, stay in front of people and stay top of mind with them, it'll help you and you'll go a lot faster and grow a lot faster, which I think is is important for all of us.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for that.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you guys learned something today, and I know I did, it would help me if you would rate and subscribe for every listening or watching.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, have a great rest of your day.