Latest / The Complete Agent - The Podcast For Premium Real Estate Agents / 122. Why Most Estate Agents Look Exactly the Same (And How to Fix It) Ft. Toby Martin
Transcript
- JK: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Complete Agent Podcast, where each week we get together to talk all things a state agency. My name is James Kendall, and as ever, I'm joined by my industry colleagues, Michelle Smith and Ian Story. We have a very special guest today as well. It's not David Warburton. He's not here. so this will probably be the best episode ever. We'll introduce our guests. guest very s I can't speak today. But anyway, we'll carry on. Show business. The show must go on. We'll start with our usual tradition tradition. Can't speak. Shall I just not bother? I'll just sit here and not speak. Anyway, Ian, help me out mate. How's your week been? Ian Storey: Okay. Michelle Smith: It's okay. Ian Storey: Week has been good, hot like the rest of us, but it's good. I mean, I'm trying hard not to moan about it being thirty degrees and glorious sunshine because, you know, it's nice really, isn't it? It's just we're not suited to it with our air conditioned houses. When you get in your car, it's lovely, but getting into your bed at night is fairly awful at the minute, these last few days. But all good. Shoots have been amazing this week. So we've done I think we've done four really, really nice houses that we've shot and that it's just been beautiful the weather, hasn't it? So JK: Mm. Ian Storey: Amazing, although we've been sweating in chinos rather than shorts doing the shoot. Yesterday we did one. It was like it looked like we were on a golf course, like a golf course in Southern California, really. It was absolutely beautiful. So that's been good. And we've got another really good shoot today on this amazing house. So, you know, pros and cons with the weather. our new valuer, Vicky, started out going out by herself last week, and she's doing well, she's got some listings under her belt already. Couple of nice listings from Matt as well at the higher end. we've had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight new listings since we recorded the pod last week. Three of those at a million or more, and the rest in the gold dust range, which is good with me, because as we know, they all sell a lot easier. And on two percent, it's a lovely place to be. And then four sales agreed. three in the gold dust range and one at 1.85, which is a beautiful house. overall. Things are good. How about you? Michelle Smith. Michelle Smith: a great week. I've had a couple of coaching clients this week and we do annual training contracts and coaching contracts and this particular client is already successful and they have just implemented and tweaked and looked at their process with the even better if lens. So that's been great to see their progress. and also to see that they are tracking ahead of their annual goals. So there's real tangible impact and return on investment for the coaching. So that for me is amazing. I've got some in-person training next week. So I'm just doing the prep for that. So it's been a busy week. And also on the TCA side, we have just put together our weekly newsletter which we really really wanted to make sure added value to people receiving it so we've got the format sorted for that and the first one went out on Tuesday and they'll be going out every Tuesday so if you did want to receive that you can always go to our website to sign up for it. So yeah really good week and I am loving the sunshine. And the horses, not so much. I've been to the yard probably about three times a day because they're in, they're out, they're in, they're out, they're being hosed off. They're getting more care than the kids, to be honest, who were just eating ice lollies rather than food and bombing in the pool. So, you know, what's not to like? JK: Well, thank you so much for kindly handing over to me. And my week actually was been has been pretty good. we have I think eight infotography at the moment as well. only one sale in the last week, but it was a gold dust sale. so sort of six fifty mark at two percent, which always always hits nicely when when they land. but yeah, lots of infotography, quite a few vowels at the moment. sales a bit slower, but we're working on working on a few bits and pieces. Some of the negotiations are a bit more protracted. but what else have we got going on? I'll tell you what, we have had a lot of good exchanges actually this month. This month has been a really good exchange month. we've been lagging a little bit with exchanges. I know there's been various challenges across the industry with conveyancing times and it taking a lot a lot of time to get things to exchange. but thankfully all of ours like the little two P machines that you get at the fairs, they all start to tip over and spill out at the bottom. So yeah, it's nice. It's and our three million pounder should be exchanging in the next few days, completing second week of July, which would be nice. so we've got some big chains in there as well that are about to exchange. So we'll be really good from sort of a cash flow point of view very, very soon. Anyway, right, so that is our week. Let me introduce our guest. I'd like to welcome Mr Toby Martin to the podcast. Welcome Toby. Toby Martin: Thank you very much. Good morning. What what a pleasure to be here. Well, it's a really rewarding week for me actually, and yeah, really enjoyed hearing about how you guys are getting on at the minute. For me, the last week was one of those ones where I feel incredibly fulfilled at the end of it, but also absolutely spent. I I got to do what I loved doing last week, which is travelling around the country and being in rooms of agents and talking to them, helping them, hearing their experiences. So I was in Leeds JK: How's your week been? Toby Martin: Bracknall, Birmingham last week. and yeah, in some great rooms of agents. I've also been really enjoying the drama of the hot weather and watching businesses decide whether they're still allowed to do business because it's hot, watching agents debate whether they they're allowed to wear shorts or if they have to wear trousers or suits. seeing everyone posting pictures of ice creams on social media, which is mandatory behavior when it's this hot. Michelle Smith: you Toby Martin: And I I was also intrigued by I noticed that Ian is currently sipping from a Costa coffee cup and I just don't understand how people can carry on drinking hot drinks in this weather. That if and and and JK is as well. It probably befuddles me. So yeah. But a very rewarding week, thanks. Yeah. And in enjoying the temperatures. JK: Apparently, according to the science, it's that you actually cool down quicker with a hot drink because when you drink a cold drink, supposedly it's but it's it your body has to then heat the cold drink up to body temperature in order to absorb it. So the smart choice, according to the science, is a hot drink. Toby Martin: I've heard this. It's the smart choice, yeah. I start from a position of of weakness here because I don't drink hot drinks full stop. And so it it it particularly confuses me when it's a hot day and I just I don't get it. I don't get it. I'm reaching for diet cokes and cold water and whatever else. But hot what liquid in this weather? I'll rip off the Scooby-Doo mask in the minute, yeah. JK: Okay. Michelle Smith: Thanks JK: Diet Cokes, are you Dave Warburton in disguise? So for anyone that doesn't know who you are, what's your name? Where'd you come from? We know your name. What's your name? What what's your background? What do you do? And just get we've got some good questions lined up for sort of open up to discussion. But it'd be good to know from your point of view, for anyone that hasn't heard of you so far, who are you? What do you do? And, you know, what's your elevator pitch? Toby Martin: Yeah, okay. Well, I'm Toby Martin. I was fifteen years an agent. I ran an agency where I live in the West Country, predominantly lettings, but we branched into sales towards the end of my time there. And at the end of 2024, I took the leap into the dark side of the industry, into the into supplier dumb. And during my last few years in agency, I'd I'd Developed a bit of a sideline in working with other agents who approached me for help, mainly with their content, their social media content, because I'd started to create a little bit of a reputation as someone who was good at creating video content online. And I I loved working with agents so much that I decided to try and do it full-time. So about 18 months ago, now I became a full-time trainer and consultant, helping people with their marketing, their content, their social media. and also somehow veered off into the world of AI as well and and wrote a couple of training courses to help agents try and get up to speed in n with that sort of new technology too. So now I do a lot of training, I do a lot of speaking, I do consulting, all around those those topics, and I absolutely love it. And it's great being able to chat to other agents and find out their experiences because it's such a varied industry and and you come across so many different approaches, and it's it's great to be able to sort lend my my experience and my expertise to that. JK: Go on, Michelle, you jump in. I can see you're desperate to ask a question. Michelle Smith: fantastic. Yeah, do Toby Martin: Okay. Michelle Smith: know, when I was doing a bit of research, Toby, I love the fact that you used to be an English teacher, so... Toby Martin: That's right. Yeah. So before agency came teaching, and it was one of those curious things where for some reason, I don't know why, but teaching seems to get passed down through generations and and other people in my family have been teachers and it always seemed to be assumed that I would be a teacher. And so I I trained, I did my PGCE, I became a secondary English teacher, and it went catastrophically badly. And there were there were many aspects of of that. that career that I loved and that I really really inform my work now. And it's quite rewarding for me because what I do now does actually feed into my teaching background slightly and it makes me feel like it wasn't an entirely wasted experience. and so yeah, teaching is something I love and and and now I love putting that to work in terms of y knowing how to light a a fire and find some passion in in estate agents and help them to to learn how to acquire new skills. So it it does connect with what I do now. Michelle Smith: Yeah, definitely. think that's that storytelling element, isn't there, that is a huge connection between English and what doing. Toby Martin: Yeah, and you know, my chosen subject was was English as well. So I I love a good story. But I I also think that a lot of the work that I do, I do try and I do try and sort of intertwine it with stories that I've picked up from from businesses or other sectors and I think it's great when you're when you're trying to teach someone something, instead of just delivering it as cold hard facts, if you can paint a picture and and you know, this this applies in the world of marketing as well, if you can if you can paint a picture and strike at people's feelings and emotions as opposed to just their logic. then i it it helps people to to to remember and it it kind of installs it in in their memory more effectively if they can recall a story, a picture, an image, a feeling, than just, you know, one, two, three, here's some logic, here's some facts, now go away and remember it and do it. Michelle Smith: Yes. JK: There's a phrase, isn't there? Facts tell, sorry sorry stell. Sell. Stories sell. I can't speak today. I'll just I'll just shut up actually and just sit here and watch everything unfold. Toby Martin: Yes. You'll be amazed the the things that we can blame on the heat. Don't worry. Like we're all malfunctioning on some level, I think. JK: Yeah, the heats, that's it. absolutely. So in terms of like marketing, I think you've said before a lot of agents all look identical. What do you think everyone why do you think everyone keeps copying everyone else? Toby Martin: I think there's a few different reasons for that. And and there's of course very notable exceptions, but i it is the case that we are an industry where a great many agents do proactively, you know, spend time and and money on looking the same in their self-promotion. And there there's a a quote that I use at the beginning of most pre of my presentations from Seth Godin, who's a great modern marketer, which is along the lines of in a crowded market. Blending in is the same as being invisible. And we're such a crowded market in a state agency. We all know that every agent has you usually has a great many competitors in their local market. and so you you look at this, you put yourself in the shoes of a would-be client in that area, and you think, right, well, they're trying to find an agent that strikes a chord with them to to Draw up their short list of three or four agents to get it called out to a market appraisal. So obviously they're going online and they're looking at who they like and and who kind of strikes a chord with them. And from an agent's, sorry, from a customer's perspective, if these agents in their self-promotion look similar and sound similar and deliver similar services and have similar kind of Canva templates in their social media and and you can't see them anywhere, they're not visible, they're not on camera, and things like that, then it makes it really hard to to To know who you're gonna pick. And as for why agents do that, I think there's a couple of reasons. So, first of all, it's it's safe, it's it feels risky to stand out. If everyone is doing something, yeah, as as humans, we're so informed by we learn patterns and we we recognize patterns, a bit like AI does. You know, we see patterns in the world and we instinctively conform to them. If everyone's doing something, then our brains go, well. That's there for a reason. Everyone's doing that, so I'm gonna do that as well. Because if I don't do it, then then surely that's wrong. So sort of the herd mentality gives us permission to do the same thing. Whereas in reality, it's blending in that's risky because you're not giving yourself the best chance possible to to to stand out and to stick in your customer's memory. there's also a big time thing as well. I think for a great many busy agents, marketing does come as a bit of an afterthought. because you're dealing with the immediate pressures of the day so so often in terms of returning calls and going on appointments and answering your emails and and then it's just a matter for a great many agents of, I need to get something on Instagram today. What could it be? So we go for the quickest and most convenient thing. so yeah, it it takes a little bit of bravery, I think, and and conviction to go, you know what, the industry's going left, so I'm gonna go right. And I'm gonna do something really different and I'm gonna invest the time, I'm gonna invest the resources. And so I don't think a lot of agents have the conviction that it's worth the effort, that they're gonna get the return on their time investment or their money investment. And and so they stay within the safety of just doing the same as a lot of other agents. Michelle Smith: Do you think that's a knowledge thing or do you think it's a mindset thing? What is it? What's the biggest barrier to agents doing that, do you think? Toby Martin: I think that it's a it it's it's both of those really. It it's a knowledge thing because I talk to a lot of agents who say, Yeah, I kinda know that I should be doing this. I know I should be getting on camera, or I know that I should be a bit more standing out a bit more in my marketing, but I just don't know how to do it. I don't know I don't know what I'm doing. and and it it's quite disarming how honest a lot of agents are about that. And they say, Look, I'm really good at a lot of things, but You know, we're a small team, or I'm a a one person band, or you know, we we we don't have a dedicated marketing person. So we have to make the best that we can with the resources we have. And and so it it is a bit of a knowledge gap. But I think there is also a a conviction gap as well, of saying, Okay, a lot of agents will say, Well, most of our leads come from word of mouth. So we don't need to invest in in big marketing campaigns or regular social media, or our target audience aren't big on social media. you know a lot of agents will say. Especially around the prime market where we might be looking at an older demographic and there'll be an assumption that social media isn't where you find those customers. and sometimes that's true that social media might not be your biggest marketing channel. but it it's it's wasteful not to do it because it's free. social media has an older demographic than a a lot of us appreciate, I think. But also marketing is not exclusively social media. So there'll be other channels that you should be exploring as well and applying the same logic too. So yeah, I think there's there's the the the ROI conviction that that it's it's worth the investment and also just, you know, where do I start? What do I do? Michelle Smith: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. We talk about it a lot, don't we, at the Masterminds with the members and I think our members have definitely got that thing of the differentiating and not blending in with the crowd and there's definite strategies that we employ and I think it is really interesting to get underneath of what is it that stops people? Is it the mindset or is it the knowledge of how to? And bridging both gaps really, what would you say, what would be the advice that you would give somebody who felt they didn't know what to do? What would be the first bit of advice that you would give them? Toby Martin: Well, I think that there's there's also just to add to what you just said, I think one other reason that holds people back, and and it's especially when I talk to people about getting on camera and and putting themselves out there, w which is that fear of putting your head above the parapet and either self consciousness or or confidence on camera or or being scared about the kind of response that you might get. Are you going to get personal comments online? Are you going to get detractors and trolls? so I think there's there's that other kind of fear as well. but in terms of sort of persuading people that this is worth doing, there's there's a few I start with the all of your marketing, all of your output has to be based around the customer. The customer has to be at the heart of everything we do. So it all begins with understanding who your customer is and and what their needs are, how they communicate, how they consume information. So first of all, let let's find out more about your customer and and how customers behave in in 2026 and how we how we go about making a purchasing decision. So we look at a couple of of behavioral habits of customers. So for example, understanding marketing principles like the seven eleven four principle of of Google's research about okay before a customer on average feels that they're ready to make a buying decision, on average they would have consumed seven hours of content across eleven touch points in four different locations. So Michelle Smith: See you in 24 hours, that. Ian Storey: Yeah. JK: Yeah. Toby Martin: And Yeah, but it's what we do these days. I like and I like to pair that with a another principle that came out of a a piece of research by Google, which they call the messy middle. And I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's you're probably familiar with the idea of a marketing funnel. So when we're trying to find new customers, the idea that all all of our Michelle Smith: Get off my screen! Toby Martin: Potential customers go into the top of of a funnel and and then at the bottom at the narrow end our actual customers come out. And somewhere in the middle of this funnel process, people are making decisions, and sometimes they go off to other businesses, sometimes they decide not to enter the market, all sorts of decisions happen in the middle of the funnel. And Google called that middle or the funnel process the messy middle. And it's called the messy middle because we live in this age of information, of of digital information and Michelle Smith: Mm-hmm. Toby Martin: We have a huge amount of of it at our fingertips. And so customers don't like to feel sold to. And and people who are wanting to sell a home, that they're not waiting for the market appraisal to start making their decision. And generally it's thought that by the time you meet someone face to face for that sales appointment, they're already up to 70% of the way through their decision. Because they've gone on this sort of journey of of self-discovery, of of going online and researching agents in the area and looking on on all sorts of different sources, you know, online reviews and blogs and social media and and offline as well. So, you know, local media, radio stations, word-of-mouth recommendations, local forums and and online forums. And and and they go through this this messy process of going here, there and everywhere, soaking up information and opinions and recommendations, so that by the time you've already met them, they've already started to form opinions and judgments and and and they've already got an opinion on you of the agent walking through the door. So if the agent is waiting for that moment at the market appraisal, if they think that's the beginning of the relationship, of building trust with the customer and and starting to forge a relationship, then then you're leaving it too late. You need to start helping to shape that opinion, feeding the customer the right materials During that research phase of the customer's journey, so that they have access to the kind of content that helps you to shape their opinion of you and lead them to the conclusions and the judgments that you want them to come to rather than leaving it to chance. So that whole sort of persuasion argument is really: well, let's understand how customers behave, let's understand what they're looking for, let's understand what people's Michelle Smith: See ya. Toby Martin: habits are on social media and then we look at well on social media it happens that the majority of what people consume is video content. So that's that's what people do. So we need to give the customer what it what they need and what they want during their buying process. Michelle Smith: Yeah. JK: So have you what's let me ask you a question then? So you obviously you've you've done a lot of research and come across a lot of different agencies, a lot of different agents, obviously worked with a lot of agents. Can you think of two or three things that stand out in your mind that you think they've been really elite pieces of content? Toby Martin: Well, that's a good question. Okay. So first of all, that there's I mean, it sounds really basic actually, but one of the most underused pieces of content that I'm surprised I don't come across more often is regular market update reports. And I I I kind of make an assumption that most agents are probably doing this, but when I run a training session, I always try and find an agent locally who's doing it so I can use it as an example. And sometimes it's actually quite hard to find. and I think that's the best piece of content that you could be making. And the reason why is because it it's just whenever you meet somebody who's interested in what you do, the first question they always ask you is gonna be how's the market? What what's the market doing? It's generally what people want to know about. If someone's looking to sell a home, then obviously they're gonna want to know what's happening in your local market. And and but but you know, the the data is fairly freely accessible. We can we can find the subject matter to talk about. It's just getting into the habit and the routine of meticulously doing it once a month. and and you know being that that that educator in your local audience, that local that authority, the go-to voice. If you want to find out what's going on in the local area, then you want to tune into our monthly market update reports. so that's quite a quite an obvious one, quite a basic one that literally any agent could be doing to demonstrate their authority and their knowledge to their potential customers. in terms of other forms of content, and and and marketing, then the I mean, one springs to mind just as an example, which is I don't know if you've seen the Hatton Home Christmas campaigns. they they invest quite a lot in their in their marketing. And there'll be other examples, but but there's Yeah. JK: So what what c so just do you mind just breaking that down in? So what is their Christmas campaign? What what do they do? Toby Martin: So they I'm thinking that I don't know if they did one last year, but I remember one from a couple of years ago and and they used to do them quite consistently before that. And so th it's very much sort of the John Lewis approach. It's kind of a quite a sort of magical storytelling creative approach. But the reason why I use that example is because you tend not to see an awful lot of creativity in our sector. The marketing is normally quite fact-based, quite service-based, and we're either delivering information about ourselves, so here's our services, here's our here's our listings, or or we're maybe intro you know, information about about the local market, like I was saying, you know, here's some stats that are gonna be relevant to you, and that's all fine. I've got nothing against that. So when somebody really goes against the grain and goes, Do you know what? We're gonna create something that is not self-promotional, it's not well on the face of it, it's not so self-promotional. it's not about local market. It's just something that is designed to provoke a feeling in our audience. It's it's designed to be slightly magical or slightly creative. then then that really stands out in in a in an industry that doesn't really do that kind of thing. And interesting that there's there was a big bit bit of research done last year. About what makes marketing most effective, the the different factors. And the thing that came at the top of that list in terms of what makes a marketing campaign really effective was size of brand. So the bigger the brand, the more well-known they are, the more effective their marketing campaigns were. So that's quite an obvious one. But the second one was the quality of the creative. So so creative quality. And it it's overlooked by us a lot in our sector, I feel, that idea that, okay. how can we make our our output, our marketing, our videos, our social media, how can we make it more creative? How can we make it more imaginative? How can we make it focus more on on what our customers feel? just like a a John Lewis, for example, AVA would do. it's not selling a sofa, it's not selling a kitchen, it's selling a feeling, and and we have access in our industry to such rich materials when it comes to moving home and the feelings that provoke and and the things that are associated with the idea of of of a a home and the family and and the heart of a family being the home. And those are such rich materials. And I think that there's so much more potential in in terms of how we communicate with potential customers and and being being memorable in how we do that that than than a lot of agencies tap into and And you know, I I it's it's not a huge criticism 'cause I I I understand why. I understand time pressures, money pressures and and all of that. But when you do see an agency go, do you know what we're just gonna do things a bit differently. We're gonna put a lot of personality into this or a lot of humour into it, or something that you don't often see in a lot of agency output, then it just really sticks in the mind and I think it would do in in the local audience as well. JK: So what what do they actually do in their campaign? Like what was the actual campaign that they did? Toby Martin: mem if memory serves, i it was a sort of magical Christmas scene of a a a family home, and it it it had you know a story at the heart of it, you know, a heartwarming Christmas story involving the family and and I'm sure there would have been some kind of magical Christmas surprise for the children of the house. But it was told in a very sort of heartwarming and and sort of tender way that that that was at at odds with a lot of of of advertising that you see. I c forgive me, I c I can't remember the entire storyline right now, but that was the sort of the the the the gist of it. JK: No, that's fine. I'd I'd say I it wasn't a I was just interested and intrigued because we're I kind of went down that John Lewis rabbit hole where you hear like Lily Allen singing Somewhere only we know and like people are coming home to the house and J John Lewis is Christmas. I mean that kind of vibe where you're kind not kind of saying, Use us to sell your property. It it's Toby Martin: Kind of thing. Yeah, that kind of thing. I I'll I'll give you another example because I I I recently worked with an agency where we did a work a bit of work to try and sort of replicate that kind of thing, but in a in a in a social in a series of social media videos as opposed to sort of one kind of seasonal hero advert. and and the the theme that we played on was that idea of the the the moments that happen within a home that would be cherished by families forever and and how so many of these things happen in the home. And we tried to find those little moments that families just remember and and really matter to them. So we came up with a list that was like, okay, well, measuring your kid's height against a doorframe, fa family meals, you know, ro roast dinners around the date table with the grandparents. and things like that. And and we we tried we came up with this list of of all of these precious moments within a home. And the idea was not to promote the agency and overtly to say, look, we sell homes. We we kind of started from the point of thinking, well, people probably already know that. so it was more an exercise in empathy of saying to the customer, look, we understand how precious a home is. And and just the the the message we were conveying was. w we think that if we really show that we we understand what a home is to you, then just that will resonate with you. That expression of empathy will sort of earn us a little bit of a place in your hearts. So it it it was a it was an exercise in building familiarity with with with our brand. and I think that all all good marketing either does one of two things. It either builds familiarity with the brand or it builds trust. with the brand. And trust is much more like, you know, here's we know everything about the the market. Here's all the latest data. Or, you know, here's some great consumer advice about the home moving process. You know, you can really trust us. We know what we're talking about. Whereas familiarity with the brand is is more just, you know, it it's it's kind of w we're we're decent people to work with. We understand what you're going through. We we we can empathize with you. and it you you know great marketing can do both at once or it might do one or the other and and it's about having that healthy mix of doing both things in in a in a in a mixture across your channels. And and if you can do that, if you can build familiarity and trust, then that's when you're really onto a winner. Michelle Smith: I'll just say Toby, as you were describing those family scenes, my brain, I've got a teenager and a pre-nager, so mine would be like doors slamming, wet towels. Toby Martin: Yeah. Michelle Smith: using my expensive face cream. You know, that was my family. Ian Storey: huh. Toby Martin: I think I think you could do that really nicely actually, 'cause 'cause we ended up going th down the you know, like the the Lily Allen twinkly music route and and making it quite the idea was for it to be quite sort heartwarming. But I think you could do it really well in in a humorous way as well. Michelle Smith: My soundtrack would be I Predict a Riot. I think we'll go with... JK: Yeah. Toby Martin: Yeah. I can just imagine that now, like, you know, the bedroom door slams and a picture falls off the wall and you could have like a s like a a up on the screen it could be like, We get it. Like Yeah. That would be pretty good. Michelle Smith: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. JK: Could could I so can I segue into another area that you're passionate about and one that I'm very passionate about as well? and I seem to get the AI nerd label within TCA. and just talking about obviously everyone's talking about AI at the moment and I think very few agents are using it properly. Where do you think a lot of them are getting it wrong? Toby Martin: I think it's a really interesting segue from what we were just talking about, because I I I I try to sort of sort ride these two things simultaneously by saying on the one hand, in the way that you promote yourself, you need to be really human. You you need to, you know, people buy from people, your your team needs to be front and center of your marketing. but then on the other hand, I'm also saying, look, AI is great, you can you can be so much more efficient with this. So the the the risk with AI for me is Is losing your brand, your tone of voice, your personality, because it's your personality and your humanness that that really resonates with your customers. So my my line that I like to trot out with AI is that you should see AI like a good pair of pants, really supportive, but invisible to other people. And so I think that where you run the risk with AI is putting AI front and center of your business. And and almost using it as the the CEO of your business, making decisions, you know, answering phone calls, and and things like that. I I I do believe that the majority of customers still want to feel like they're getting a human experience. So for me, the the great potential of AI is in becoming more efficient so that we can really focus on the human aspects of our business that that win instructions. and and and the risk is also using it in a basic or less informed way that means your tone of voice and and your whole brand presence becomes more bland and more beige and and again like we were saying right at the start starting to look and sound like every other agent who's also using AI. So for me it's about knowing how to customize and personalize AI, how to train it, to to know who you are, to know your business And and obviously making sure you always have human creativity, human oversight, so so that AI doesn't dil dilute who you are. You if you can't use AI to sound like you, then you run the risk of starting to sound like AI. And I think I think people are quite savvy to that now. I think we've all built this internal AI radar. and Yeah. JK: Yeah. The dashes and the nestled ins and the emphasizing and all that sort of the AI flags that you get. So where do you think AI genuinely saves time? Toby Martin: In lot of places, and there's kind of I think probably a couple of different levels to it. So you you've got the basic everyday efficiencies of things like you know, replying to emails. I if if if your listeners are not yet using AI with their voice very much, then that's a huge opportunity. So I don't know if you know i if you use whisper flow, but you know, even just using voice dictation is it's three times quicker than typing. So just using that as an everyday tool already frees up a huge amount of your time. so there's everyday efficiencies like that. But then you move up a tier and you get into the world of automations and and things like that. And and that's where you can set up whole workflows, you know, such as someone downloads a guide of yours and they go into a into directly into a sort of a a marketing campaign and you can have triggers and emails sent out to them and things like that. A and it's about I think for me it's about building those automations and efficiencies behind the scenes so that customers are being responded to more quickly and and everything is sped up and you're doing less things manually but without losing that direct c contact contact that you'll eventually want to have with the customer. So I I put yeah. JK: I guess to put that into I was gonna say to put that into context in terms of how somebody would use that on a daily basis. So I I'm as as Ian and Michelle know, I'm a big fan of WhisperFlow and I literally use it every single day. Ian, you use and you dictate a lot, don't you? Use the iPhone. Obviously I'll take the mick out of you because whenever we're in your car in Cheshire, you're speaking at your Apple CarPlay and you know, full full stop, comma. I'll bring you back later. but the Ian Storey: Yeah. JK: AI side of it kind of enables you to and it just buys you so much more time back. So for example, if anyone listening to this, if you're using WhatsApp groups to communicate with your clients, you'd be able to send them rather than send a voice note, because people can send voice notes sometimes, and voice notes sometimes end up being more like podcasts than voice notes. And if you sit there with Whisper Flow, you can because people can't all, you know, if you're at work, right? Imagine you work in a private environment, for example. A lot of our Clients are sort of high level and they can't necessarily listen to voice notes at work, but being able to use Whisperflow and give somebody an update and it all transcribed into text, they could which they can they can then read, I think is really good. Whisperflow is also good for prompting as well. So I use it a lot for prompting and giving it. I mean, you don't necessarily need Whisperflow because a lot of the AI platforms now have really good. inbuilt transcription services anyway. So, you your Claudes, your Geminis, your Chat GPTs, they all have that transcription built in. But I just find that it works really well when I'm I'm just so used to using flow now that I just talk in and I iteratively improve the the the prompts that we've got. you mentioned email as well. have you sort of dipped your toe in the water with Fixer? Toby Martin: I I I've I've looked at it and I I trialed it myself and it's something that I do mention to agents. It seems to get it seems to div a divide the crowd a little bit between people who who do really like it and other people who fight feel that it dominates their inbox a bit too much. I I think some people are still finding it hard to to sort of relinquish c that level of control to AI, but it's a really smart tool. JK: Yeah. I think for me on just on Fixer, I I found it been I mean Dave Warburton uses it as well. It's been game changing for us because we get, well, between me and Dave, I mean, I get probably a hundred emails a day. Dave probably gets similar. and probably five to ten of those emails are important things that need to be responded to. The rest of those are marketing, FYIs, email threads that we've been copied in on. And where fixer is kind of learnt. the inbox over the time on Gmail, everything is automatically categorized. And I've got FYIs, I've got marketing emails, which I literally just go through and delete every day. I've got so one of the most powerful things for me is that because it sits in your inbox and it sees who you've replied to before and what you've said, one of the things we're doing really well at the moment across all TCA members and ourselves as well is the social media pre-launches and So they're candid tours before you go, they're not polished. They are literally just iPhone, with a mic, the ground floor of the house. This is coming to the market soon. And then a call to action with the email address and the office phone number. And where it's really been amazing for us is we're getting loads of inquiries on email. Come in, people saying, I can't see the property on your website. I've just seen it on social media. How much is it, please? And Fixer is so used to how we respond to people. And that it what happens is so an email comes in the inbox, fixer within seconds drafts a reply. It's sat in your drafts. And if somebody says, for example, one we've got recently, Master Mortane, somebody will say, I've just seen the tour you've the you've done on social media for Master Mortane.' How much is it? In my inbox already, Fixer has written an email saying, Hi, whatever their name is, just to let you know, this is launching to the market at the price, because I've it's already seen me reply to somebody. what's your buy-in position? Would you like to range a viewing of the house? would you like to discuss this in further detail? So I can literally just go into my inbox drafts, bang, press send, and that person's had a reply within seconds. so I think that that is really powerful. so just to to to flick back to you again, two questions. first thing, where should AI never replace a human? And secondly, What's one AI workflow every estate agent should build into their week? Toby Martin: Okay. A AI should never replace a human. I it's difficult to say never, isn't it, with where the technology is going. But f for for the for the foreseeable future I'll say Well, direct contact with you know, w we we still need direct contact. So in in terms of being at the end of the phone, I don't think an agent should ever be inaccessible. I know there's quite a lot of, you know, seemingly very smart call answering services now and things like that, where possible, I still think that you should make it as easy as possible for a customer to get you through to a an actual agent, to a to a human being. and I I think that there's still quite a quite a chasm in terms of public trust of AI and I think the harder you make it to be a human company, a human-faced company, it's e again, everything we do should be with the purpose of building trust with customers. And I think that when you make it more difficult for people to communicate directly with humans, you're you're starting to erode trust. So I I think that we should be cautious with things like automatic AI responders and and answering services. Maybe out of hours there's a place for that. but you know, we we still need to be human, human centric cut companies. and also my second answer to that is coming back to the other side of what I do on camera, I I I for the time being, I'm still not personally sold on things like Hey Gen and and digital AI avatars. and I know they're getting better and better, but for me they're still a little bit a little bit eerie, a little bit not quite right. JK: Yeah. Yeah. Toby Martin: And and it comes back to, you know, you want you want your potential customers, you want your audience to see your your personality and to feel who you really are through your marketing. And if yeah. JK: Just want to say on Hey Gen, just because there'll be a lot of people that listen to this. Like I I'm an AI nerd, right? So I know exactly what you mean there. There'll be other people that listen to it and go, What the hell is HeyGen? Like, is this Jenny from the block or you know, hey Jenny? HeyGen is basically a AI digital twin of you, and you can basically feed it a script and it will then spit out whatever you say in your well, very similar to your voice. They say your voice, very similar to your voice. but it is Michelle Smith: This is... JK: very I mean as there's a it is getting there. I mean it's it's incredible. If you think where we were five years ago, even where we were maybe a year ago, it's moved on incredibly fast. But I again to the I mean the trained eye knows straight away, but I also feel like the general public and I don't know what it is. I just I feel like even if I maybe the even the untrained eye, you kind of you get that almost dead behind the eyes look of of AI where It's literally you can see the computer generated pupils like almost tracking left to right. And then they'll they'll kind of like it's like the AI coding has gone throwing in a facial expression. So it'll go all of a sudden out of the just to try and make it more human, but it it's really not. And I do feel like you're absolutely right. And the way that we go more AI, and this is where my view on where AI will go within the industry. AI will commoditize the lower end of agency. it will c complete it will be very much, you know, if Purple Bricks was revolutionizing the industry now with the power of AI, I think it would have been a hell of a lot more successful. unless, you know, let's not take nothing away from the guys. It would you know, they were incredibly successful and they made millions and millions of pounds from it. But I think if they could have s disrupted the industry with AI and Purple Bricks now, I think it would be completely game changing. And will completely wipe out the lower end of a state agency and the commoditizer agency. But how where I think agents are going to win in future is with that premium agency in that mid to upper end of the market where your clients really, you know, 30 and below, maybe arguably 40 and below, are very much, we're in that gap, right? Where we can still remember where. You had to hang up the phone to get 59 free minutes and you know, you'd ring on the landline or you'd bike to your friend's house for 30 minutes, knock on the door, and go, no, sorry, he's gone out with his dad, you know, before the internet age and and dial up, et cetera. But also in a unique camp where we've grown with technology, you know, computers and Pentiums and we've kind of gained all of this knowledge and we're very much embedded with technology. You know, iPhones aren't new to us. But then a lot of our clients at the mid to upper end, the demographic can be. 50 to 80. And that segment there can be, you know, maybe they were just coming out of retirement as computers were coming in. They've maybe got an iPhone, don't know how to use it. I took on a client the other day that they're in their very late 60s. They don't trust WhatsApp. They don't want really want to use email. They're very much, can you pick up the phone? And can you be service based? I just think that the mid to upper end of the market, AI will enable agents in the way that. we've talked about with whisper flow and getting back to emails and kind of save them time efficiencies. But, you know, I don't know if you remember anyone remembers watching Phone Jacker. Do you remember Phone Jacker? K Van Novak. And there's a great video where he does a a sketch where somebody rings in and they're trying to book tickets for Gladiator, the film in Leicester Square. And it's it's an old, older man it's going, Leicester Square. Toby Martin: Yeah. Yeah. JK: Gladiator and Kay Van Novak, obviously the phone jacker on the other end of the phone is going, sorry, I didn't get that. You want pink princesses? And he said, No, Leicester Square. So you know, you can you can lose clients like that. This is where AI has gone sometimes. And we trialed AI call answering services before, and you do find that I guess they're kind of maybe 45, 50 and below get it and they know, right, we this is AI, I can leave a message. It can do basics, it can move forward. However, there is a big segment of your customer base in the mid to upper end of the market that is 50 plus that isn't OFA with AI and just thinks you've got an idiot at the other end of the phone that can't understand them. And they then take their business elsewhere. So I do think that the premium market will be enabled by by AI. but I think people will crave more human interaction. And because AI has never moved house before. They might. Have read books on how to move house, but they would never experience the emotions of, you know, we talked about it and covered it earlier in the marketing campaigns, but you know, the kids growing up in the house, the the baby coming home from the hospital, seeing their grandkids for the first time, watching the grandkids play in the garden, watching your kids take their first steps in the living room. Like AI doesn't have that emotional connection with people. And that's where pe people will win in the mid to upper end of the market with that human connection. Toby Martin: Can could you share a a a a quick story that really amused me, that ties in with that. I don't know if you saw this, but last month on X, someone put a up a picture and said that they'd asked AI to replicate a famous Monet painting of the the lily pads. And they said to their followers, can anyone tell me what makes this AI version in any way inferior to the original? And the post sort of blew up and just got tons and tons, hundreds and hundreds of comments of people saying, well, it's just it's rubbish and it it it could never compare to the original and it lacks the f artistry and and all of this. and it transpired that the bloke had actually just posted the original pa the original painting. It it wasn't an AI version at all. But I I liked it because it demonstrates that I think those of us who are who who like using AI and who who understand it and and can see how to implement it in our businesses, maybe sometimes lose sight of the fact that on a wider level there is still a lot of distrust in AI. And for a lot of a a lot of people out there, just the the I don't know if you've seen these videos in in the US of these college commenc commencement speeches where the students have sort of booing mention of of AI because they kind of see it as a threat to their to their future livelihoods. And and so there there is not yet total buy-in from the wider public on AI replacing humans. And so I think that we just need to to temper our approach, you know, our adoption and and to tailor it to our our customers and to actually consider do our customers want to to to see AI? D do they want that to be the you know the the the person who responds to them, the person who responds to them, the the the thing that responds to them or or d are we still wanting humans? And so I think it's just a question of maybe not getting too carried away and using it shrewdly where it actually benefits us within our business. JK: You just made me think as well. I'm sure you posted on LinkedIn a little while back about AI digital furnishings. And can you tell the difference? Like but I think did you was the post can you tell the difference between which is AI and which is not? Toby Martin: Yeah, it always gets quite a big response to that. Yeah. So I actually thought well so recently I I did a an experiment and I thought I wonder what will happen if I replicate that Monet post on social media. And so I put an image that I just a stock image that I'd taken of the living room and I put it up and I said that it was an AI image. and and it got quite a big response. but it it wasn't an AI image at all. And the the but JK: Yeah. Yeah. Toby Martin: To be fair, the majority of the response that I got was not based around the quality of the image or the quality of the staging. It was people expressing concern about the idea of using AI staging and and then the potential buyer getting a disappointed experience when they actually see the reality when they go to view the property. So there was a kind of not quite ethical, but there was a a business quandary over whether does AI staging actually benefit us or does it set us up for disappointment when we show them the real real property and and there was some quite fierce debate over that. JK: So what would you in terms of, you know, if any a agents are looking at because I know you've given advice on this before, like what would you say is in w your go to if you were advising an agent on AI furnishing an empty property, what's your go to? is it nano banana? is it yeah. Toby Martin: Yeah. So I well no I no sorry, yeah, it is now a banana. So Google Gemini. and and the big difference, Chat GPT has just got a whole lot better at creating images. What ChatGPT is really good at though is laying text over images. So if you wanted to make infographics or or sort of data graphics to put on your social media, then ChatGPT is great. For home staging, the reason why Google Gemini works really well is that it's very reliable in terms of not altering the base image. JK: Yes. Toby Martin: you know, the last thing you want is for the dimensions of the room or something to be subtly shifted so you end up misleading the the customer. Google Gemini is very reliable at maintaining the original image whilst adding furniture very realistically. the the sentiment that I've got back from agents when I talk about this to them is and to be fair, people seem swi quite switched on about it and quite savvy, is to either label the images as AI staged, Or to use both the original and the AI image as a kind of like, well, here's what it actually looks like and here's what it could look like if it was furnished. but I think that the the crucial thing is managing the person's expectations. I I always get a big response from home staging businesses when I when I post about this online. but for obvious reasons, yeah. And and I get that there is legitimacy to their argument where that they say, I think that JK: Yeah. Taking our jobs. Toby Martin: is Elaine Penhall, who I get on with fantastically, always comes in with a fantastic line, which is along the lines of it's like the the greatest trailer to the world's shittest movie, I think is what she says. so and I I I love that and I get that. So I think that if you're going to use AI staging, then managing the expectations of JK: Yeah. Toby Martin: potential buyers is really crucial to to make sure they they know that they're not going to walk into a home that does look exactly like that. That you know we've used AI to demonstrate how it could look. You know, the the room, the the decoration, the carpets, that is all exactly how it will look. It's just we've added table and chairs to to the image. Just to make sure you don't get that moment of then walking into the room and going, I was expecting something different. So I d I personally don't have any truck with it, but I think you need to be transparent and you need to be proactive in in managing expectations at the viewing. JK: Yeah, perfect. Well, I think that's a really good place to call it there. We're nearly at the sixty minute mark. It's been a great episode. Toby, before we close off for the day, l how do these wonderful people that listen to this podcast find out who you are, where you are, and get in touch with you. Toby Martin: Well, thank you very much. So I I'm I'm I'm on social media. search my name, Toby Martin. I'm I'm on I think every single platform. I my website, Toby Martin Consultancy dot co dot UK. And yeah, if if anyone would like to continue the conversation, I'm always up for a chat. So if if if anything's piqued your interest, do drop me a line. I'd love to hear from you. And thank you everyone very much for having me. Michelle Smith: thank you. JK: Well, it's been a pleasure, mate. It's been been really valuable. There's been loads of different insights. I think me and you could both talk AI all day, and we're and and and these two guys could probably listen to it all day as well. But yeah, thanks everyone for listening. been a great episode, and make sure you check out Toby. And as ever, we will see you next week. Toby Martin: Yeah.