Latest / MaxValue Podcast / Recruiting for professional services Ft. John Borrowman

Transcript

Recruiting for professional services Ft. John Borrowman · MaxValue Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't explain what you do to another smart person, then maybe you don't know it very well.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's just a natural tendency to think that all the other trees in the forest are like the tree you happen to be standing next to at the top.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: How do you get around the fact that there's something called AI?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: They don't hire anybody, but they don't think and make it all the way to the top.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're kind of doing things right, what is something that might be less obvious that could help somebody take the hiring decision for the next level?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a, well uh, lay down on lay down on the couch here and tell me your problem.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are some reasons why a firm runner might want to listen to you instead of just going it alone?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: What is happening to you in your job or in your life?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you have a frame of mind to think about a change?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Max Value, the show for business owners and the trusted advisors who are on a mission to maximize their value with business valuation, exit planning, strategy, and a comprehensive view of the hiring landscape.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ben Town, and today we're going inside the talent market with John Barrowman of Barrowman and Baker.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: He's been recruiting in professional services and business valuation specifically since 1995.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: John sees the forest, not just the trees, and that vantage point really helps leaders avoid mishires, helps them move faster on offers, and really stop treating hiring like a commodity or just an unpleasant task.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: John, thank you for being here.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you give a little bit of your professional background?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: As it's usually the case, there's the story and there's the resume.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to start with the story, and that was um, like a lot of people who these days, I was working for, may have been in this situation.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was working for a small family-owned company that was just about to be gobbled up by a bigger fish, which eventually was gobbled by an even bigger fish.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew from what I was hearing that I wasn't going to be happy there.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in that very moment, I got a phone call from an old friend whom I had met in recruiting many years earlier, who said, Why don't you come back and let's work together?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I have discovered this thing called business valuation.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's essentially how it was.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's the story.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: The resume is I was in recruiting for five years from 80 to 85.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: I went off and did other stuff.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I came back in 95, and that's when I started business valuation.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's two different you pick the resume or pick the story.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so uh you've been at this for you know over 30 years.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: What what is what are some reasons why a firm runner might want to listen to you instead of just going it alone, like mostly they do?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um I guess I'll I'll start by telling you that uh if you spoke to my wife, she would tell you that it's simply in my nature to expect to be listened to.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, however, seriously, it's the perspective.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: As you said earlier, it's seeing the forest for the trees.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Any even people who work in this profession for a very, very long time may only see a half a dozen different trees, okay, in terms of practices, where they are.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's just a natural uh tendency to think that all the other trees in the forest are like the tree you happen to be standing next to at the time.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's just not that way.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think my perspective also includes the ability to talk about what does get candidates' attention, how to deal with them, how to move through the hiring process.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're probably going to cover some more of that in the rest of the conversation.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and in particular, you know, you've you've given presentations to various groups that that I'm part of, uh, including uh the Cal CPA BV section.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you came out here to California to do that with us, and that was great.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And as part of that, you know, I I really picked out uh one of the infographics that I thought was really, really great.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you've you've brought that slide today to uh to show us, uh, at least for the people watching it on YouTube and not not hearing it on audio.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh why don't we bring that up uh and we can talk through that real quick.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's so illustrative to talk through a uh an infographic like that uh that maps out you know some of the ideas that you're that you're thinking of.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um while we're waiting for that to come up, I guess I'll go ahead and say that um certainly in the uh business valuation field, uh there is really a unique hiring challenge, okay?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And in my experience, that comes up because those of you who do that are literally in a business of judgment.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, when your deliverable is an opinion or a conclusion of value, you're in the business of judgment.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and this slide that I brought is intended to kind of illustrate how that hiring challenge plays out very practically when it comes to hiring talent.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So what start with imagining in your mind's eye an organizational pyramid, okay?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Very simple, very simple.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then you draw a horizontal red line somewhere between a fourth and a third of the way up from the baseline.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you are hiring people who function below that line, and I'm not talking job titles, I'm talking function, you've got a lot of options, okay?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can bring them from the estate department, the the the yeah, the trust and estate departments in banks, you can bring them from FPA, you can bring them from a lot of places.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is if you are hiring above that line for somebody who functions above that line, your only choice, your only option is to get them from the profession itself.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably the thing that has just results in a very persistent labor shortage in business valuation.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and John, I think one of the issues that we've always seen kind of in the the old school problem is the you know master and apprentice relationship to get somebody from that that lower layer up to the the top of the pyramid.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not a problem, it's great.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: That that absolutely works, but it's not so easy to do in a labor-constrained market like like we have uh across most professions right now, um, and up to and including business valuation, where you need to have that person uh start with you, be interested in the field, be satisfied enough to stick around and be incentivized enough to climb the ranks.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: It it absolutely still happens, and and and oftentimes that can be the best way.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: But when you don't have that that natural succession, then then you gotta do go somewhere else.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta figure it out, and that's that's where you come in.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: It is it is it is really tough.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: That it is hard to do.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of the things I enjoy is working with employers in meeting that objective, you know, getting that person on board that really makes a difference for them.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things I really liked about the infographics specifically is that it's it's really simple.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think most effective infographics really are simple.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And also it kind of looks like the Pink Floyd album cover with the triangle and the the bisecting uh line there.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's there's that.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now that we're talking about there are different pools to fish in, and there are different types of fish that you're going for.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm maybe taking this fishing metaphor a little too far.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you talk about you know getting that right person?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know when they're the right one?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how do you know you're getting the person with the right skills for the position?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Good question.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um the up the the approach here uh falls into two buckets or or or two tracks, so to speak.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um one it is important uh when you're hiring to focus on the one hand on the analytical and the other hand writing, because writing is so very, very important in this profession, and the analytical skills, they're good, but they won't do the job by themselves.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to measuring those analytical skills, I think uh one of your best bets, frankly, is a case study that you put together using the financials from one of your clients, you anonymize them, and you can give a sheet that shows multiple years, at least five or six years of financials, and then you can ask questions.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So to invite the person to talk about what they're seeing there and what happened and what is the advice that they would be giving to that particular client, you know, given the situation they're seeing in front of them.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the case study like that, although it is, you know, probably it's a really good hiring tool, it's just not very good if you're trying to hire at an entry level.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because these people just, you know, they won't have the experience and the wherewithal to be able to answer that question.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, at a very least, again, in the category of analytical, you should be working with an Excel skills test.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, very simple.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can get it off the shelf.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you could easily put one together in a way that that correlates with the kind of work that you do, so you're getting uh an extra detailed understanding of not only what they know, but what else you're gonna have to teach.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's the analytical side.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: John, let me let me let me stop you there real quick.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do do you do you recommend that people do those tests live in front of you?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I because I because I can think sometimes when I'm presenting something to a client and you know suddenly we have to do a little bit of math, and then suddenly I don't know Excel anymore.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the case study should be done live.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think even if it has to be done via video, that's okay, but you want it done live.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: You want it done in real time.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: The Excel test uh not so much, but it does certainly need to be a timed test, you know, so you can see what your candidate accomplishes and what they don't.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: You may not you may not need to be monitoring them in real time, but so so that's what I'd say about how you deliver them.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on the on the other side, the writing, okay?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about analytical writing.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: On the writing side, I have found that it it's not uncommon that an employer will ask for a writing sample or maybe even an actual report.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: It gets a little bit dicey, okay, because candidates are understandably reluctant to be sharing reports for the clients that they've worked on.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they might be okay if uh it is anonymized, if uh certain data is redacted.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um but even so, as an employer, you have to be careful about um you know who really wrote it.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the work of the person you're talking to, or is it the work of a team that that person was part of?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or it was that person's week work heavily edited?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you got to think about those things.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I I always suggest what I think is a pretty creative approach to another way to look at writing, and that is to, especially again, maybe with um with uh more toward entry-level people, and that would be to assign an industry report.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now you think, holy cow, what do I do that?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's what you do: you choose you choose an industry segment in a in a specific location where there's going to be lots of public data.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: You might um you might tell them, give me give me an industry report on bars in Milwaukee, give me one on uh on coffee shops in Seattle, oil field services in Tulsa, okay, or restaurants wherever you can choose them, and you can see how well your candidate does or not in that kind of writing assignment.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also useful because you get a little bit of a little touch of analytical in there as well, okay?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So analytical and writing is what I would say.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: How do you get around the fact that there's a well now there's a thing called AI that you know is the bane of you know every high school teacher, you know, out there uh where kids are, you know, kids and you know now uh applicants can use that to you know juzh up whatever they write, or you know, out of whole cloth, you know, make it make uh make an answer for them.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh boy, um that is a tough one.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is a tough one.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um hey, at a minimum, you should ask for an assurance from your candidate that this is their work and their work alone.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would hate to think that someone would actually lie about that if confronted with that kind of a question or request for a confirmation, you know.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um this also uh you it's a good question, Ben, because it also brings us back to whether some kind of writing assignment should be monitored in real time.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um you know, I guess that's that's the best thing I can say.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good it's a good question, and something that uh something that is going to pop up, except be prepared for it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I will say one of the uh because we have uh international team, and one of the things that we do have to worry about is you know the the fit of communication.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily that we need to fit it in the same exactly the same form or the same way that you know I might say something, you know, my uh cohort in India might say it a different way, and that's perfectly perfectly fine.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we always run them through, you know, any potential new hire.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: We want to make sure the writing skills are are really good.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: The spoken skills, you can always you can make it work, you can always get get there as long as it's a a reasonable level.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the the writing where there's no additional context, you're reading an email, what's there is what's there, you gotta know.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and fortunately, we've been we've been very, you know, well, we've been very fortunate, I'll say, to get people who can communicate very well in in writing.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it is definitely different uh looking at the different forms of communication, written versus spoken versus other.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it it is, it is, and as you're talking about that, one of the things I'm thinking about is the um boy, the difficulty of teaching that.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I guess you you can coach on how to put the words together, you can coach on what to say and what not to say, but there's just something extra that's difficult to define in the candidate who really can write.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and you know, and do you're sorry, now you really got me going here.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you how much risk do you take with someone who may who may come out really terrific on the analytical, but you got some question about the writing, and do you say to yourself, well, you know, I I I think we can bring them along.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can train them.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tough call.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really is a tough call.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this, I guess it was said earlier, this is a business of judgment.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important to understand how people apply that judgment and and articulate that judgment, correct?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's really what it's about.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I was gonna say that it's it's two sides of the coin, though, it's the judgment as well as the communication of said judgment.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh otherwise, nobody knows how smart you are, right?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: If if you can't explain to generally, we're talking with pretty smart people, you know, we're talking with you know an attorney, we're talking with uh a another CPA, another accountant, we're talking with uh a judge, we're talking with uh the business owner, depending on the on the venue.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: But all these people are good at something, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be the thing we're good at, but they're smart.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't explain what you do to another smart person, then maybe you don't know it very well.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's sometimes you say something that goes ding, and I'm thinking of, see, this is a I think this is a place where the behavioral interviewing approach can be useful.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because very often the behavioral interviewing approach is is characterized by questions like tell me a story about.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and so that's a really good opportunity to see how um articulate, coherent or not your candidate is in explaining those kinds of things.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and one and one of my favorites would be uh, especially if you're hiring above that line, that red line, tell tell me about a time when you had to explain to a client that the value of their business isn't what they thought it was.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh because there are you may well be hiring for a role that requires that.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think the the important a really important point that you made right there was about are you are you hiring for above the line or below the line or below the line with the expectation that you're going to move above the line, whatever, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: That the the uh the eventual uh limit on that person may end up being around the communication.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I do think that as you as you progress, you get technical knowledge, which is then requisite in order to be able to communicate that technical knowledge at a at a higher level eventually.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: But some people I think to your point don't develop that second part or not as much or whatever.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes, I think because they may be uh closeted in a in a bigger firm or you know, kind of protected from having to do some of that uh by the nature of their work, whatever.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And look, that's not necessarily the funnest part, always.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is is it is actually the fun part for me communicating with the client, but a lot of people don't necessarily want to be walking on, and that's that's totally okay, but but it is it can be limiting in the career path.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's true.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it um it can leave employers um facing a um, I don't know if you'd call it a conundrum, but but certainly a difficult decision.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: One approach to hiring and building a practice is that you know, if you if you got good talent, we'll make a place for you.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I'll give you uh as an example, I once worked with somebody who had a lot of respect for.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things he used to say consistently was, you know, John, I'm not looking for a round peg and a round hole or a square peg and a square hole.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking for a quality peg and we'll make the hole.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now he lived up to it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's also the view, which I have known other employers to take.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: They don't hire anybody that they don't think can make it all the way to the top.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just from the get-go.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that doesn't mean they're going to make it to the top.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a filtering out process.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who knows what's going to be happening.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, there's just two different uh two different approaches, two different points of view.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And in uh, well, anyway, as someone who's doing some hiring, it's something that you really just have to keep in mind.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's all you can do.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we do the best we can.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, I'm a professional evaluator and and uh exit planner, but also uh we get to be small business owners as well and uh and go through the hiring process and learn all the other skills that we've never been taught before.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there you go.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody, I want to take a second here to share something about who we are and why we make this show.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably here because either you or a client of yours is thinking about buying or selling a business, bringing in investment, or planning an eventual exit.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why we call this show Max Value.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: We provide you with information and insights about how to maximize the value of your business.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Our team at Town Advisory guides business owners through the crucial, often once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to exit their business.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: We use our trademark exit builder program to help business owners prepare early, protect the value they've built, and obtain maximum value through an exit.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the secret is our clients define what value means to them.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Taking the right steps now can make all the difference in creating a successful outcome for yourself, your family, and your work team.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you think you're ready for the next step in understanding and increasing the value of your business, make a comment, send me a message on LinkedIn, or send me an email.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: All those links are in the show notes.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, yeah, let's go to uh the the lightning round and punch up the pace a little bit.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, first question.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a small business owner in a specialized professional practice.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: What are three top mistakes that somebody like me is probably making in hiring?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay, okay.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um it's not hard to come up with three.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: But there may be more, but I see if it's one of them is um using a job description as bait.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: People don't respond to I I see stuff postings and and it just reads like the job description, okay?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: People aren't attracted to job descriptions because they already have a job.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: What they are attracted to is a story about how things can be better.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right, and um so sometimes employers may say, Well, gee, you know, I don't when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to articulate your own story.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you that.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a trick: ask the people who work for you.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I got over here.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So ask what would you tell people are the most fun and interesting parts of this job?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: They'll tell you, okay, and that gives you material to use.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um what was the most interesting thing you learned when you did this job?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and finally, here's what's my favorite.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: What do you tell people when you want to brag about what it's like to work here?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: The answers you get to that are going to be the content you need to tell the story of your practice.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so again, the first thing is trying to use using a job description as bait.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't work, okay.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, not making the process a priority.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I talk about that in two ways.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: One is everybody has a daily to-do list, okay?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll you'll you'll write in hires, hires, but whatever, whatever, somewhere on that list.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and if you're like everybody else, over the course of a day or multiple days, or that that list just moves up and down.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, something else comes in.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, we'll move it down.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: What you should do is make the hiring process its own to-do list.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it'll give you the advantage of having a specific place to focus, and it will also force you to think about and act on all of the individual steps you've got to take to make that happen.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's that old saying, how do you eat an elephant?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: What one bite at a time?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's how that's separate.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the other thing about not making the process a priority is that too many employers in the in the process, they're interviewing, they don't bring their A game.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is they don't do what they said they would do.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, example, um, look, I'll get you tell a candidate, look, I'll get back to you on Wednesday.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get back to them on Thursday or Friday.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, you know how it is in your practice.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're busy, and you're gonna cut yourself some slack for not meeting that deadline.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, your candidate knows nothing about that.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: They only know how you're treating them.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and they think they will, they think the way you hire is the way you manage.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: They will, okay?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's just what they do.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and and I was thinking about this all I uh something comes in that I think it's easy to do, probably even normal, and that is jumping the gun in your thinking that this person is hired.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is that you know, if you've if you spend very much time in the process, and most employers do, um, you get kind of you get kind of frustrated, and then maybe the perfect person shows up.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: You interview them, and you immediately think, yep, that's the one.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not unusual at all.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what you'll do is you'll check that little box in your head that says hiring, done.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what you ignore is your candidate isn't even close.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: They've got other questions, they want to meet other team members.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they got you if you jump the gun and make that assumption, but what typically happens is you make that assumption and you're off doing something else.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you think it's done.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not done.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know, that's a kind of a mistake I see people making, is it's not not wrapping it up in the way that they really should.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really interesting.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of yeah, that's that's like spiking the ball on the one-yard line, right?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: You you're you almost did it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: You almost made it.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't get the score.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so thank thanks for those those three items.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh like you said, I'm sure there's a lot more.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, on on that score, you know, it even if you're kind of doing things right and you're you're avoiding most of the major landmines, you know, what what is something that might be less obvious uh that that you could overcome or think about that could help somebody, again, like me, take the hiring decision to the next level.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay, okay.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I think the thing that comes to mind there, Ben, is that it's easier to overpay than you think.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Give you an example.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'll talk to an employer and about what their need is, and they'll talk about a compensation range.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my view of the lower end of the range is, you know, that's doable, that'll get it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I look at the top end of the range and I'm thinking, whoa, yeah, that would really be attractive to some people.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem I also notice at the same time is that the person you hire who has to have that higher salary could also be someone who walks in the door with expectations about the speed of their advancement and their growth and their pay that will simply go unfulfilled.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's um, I think you and I talked about this before.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a day one, day two kind of a thing.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, what what is this person going to be doing down the road?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are they gonna grow at the pace that you're ready to put into somebody?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do they fit within the scope of what you have in mind for that role?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, hey, it can be very, very tempting to hire H-I-R-E at that higher H-I-G-H-E-R level.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because you think, oh wow, it would be so great to have somebody I could just hand this work to, and they can, boy, they could knock it out.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's really attractive.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: But they'll probably get tired of just knocking it out pretty quickly, you know, and then you're you're anyway, you're lost.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: You got a problem.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: You're back to our one.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: That that one's that one's good.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh last quick one.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what's an overused interview question that everybody should retire immediately?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, okay.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, okay.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a question that I really uh well, what here's the question everybody asks.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you thinking about leaving?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've caught myself with that one.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody, everybody uses it, okay?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you thinking about and it's normal, it's normal to ask that question.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the two two reasons that's it's the wrong question.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, first of all, it could well be that the candidate came to this conversation not having made a decision to leave.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, this or whoa, whoa, whoa, like that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: The other problem is more psychological, okay?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because whenever you ask a question that starts with why, the brain just automatically scrambles in search of the answer.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there never is the answer, okay?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you want to you want to test yourself on that, just remember when your mom asked you why you put that empty water jug back in the refrigerator, okay?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or or your dad asked you, how come you brought the car home without filling it up with gas?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have an answer for that.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And neither will your candidates.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you ask instead?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it certainly doesn't work with my 13-year-old.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, it it well, it never worked with me when I'm 13, I'll tell you that.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, so what is the question?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's basic sales 101.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if someone walks into your auto dealership, you want to know what brought them in the door.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are do they have a checkbook in hand and they're ready to write you a check for a car today?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or are they at the very beginning of their process?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you ask your candidate?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: What is happening for you in your job or in your life that has you in the frame of mind to think about a change?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and you'd be amazed at what you learn.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you may you may hear, well, you know, I I just got divorced and I'm taking the kids and moving back closer to home.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, not gonna have to worry about a counter offer there.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, sometimes, here's more interesting, sometimes you might hear your candidate talk about a problem which you know is not gonna get fixed simply because they come to work for you.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because there's that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um at any rate, it's what what is happening for you in your job, in your life, that puts you in the pos you in the frame of mind to make a change.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that it's in a certain sense, it's the same question, but it is a little bit more, a little bit more vagued up.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's it's uh, you know, it takes it from a multiple choice answer to a uh short response, you know, open uh open answer type of type of question.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's that's always good.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's um um, I don't know if you want to stretch the the the stretch it that far, but it's almost like uh well uh lay down on lay lay down on the couch here and tell me your problems, you know, kind of thing.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's just a shrink, just opened them up, and you'd be amazed at what you hear.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets you right to it.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: It gets you right to what you want to know, okay?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right off the bat.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, long-winded answer, but there you go.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I yeah, I don't I don't know if uh a lightning round is always the uh the appropriate way to label that, but um it's it's a right.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's talk about some other stuff.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's really what I should call it.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Any other stuff?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, I'm good with other stuff.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Other stuff is good.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: But speaking of, I mean, you you've given a lot of really, really good insight into the hiring process and what people should be considering, especially small business owners like like myself.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, let's get to know you a little bit.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I want to know what are some things that are personal to you that are not on your LinkedIn or your website profile?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, one thing that uh tends to come up in those kinds of conversations is that I am um I am one of a shrinking number who actually got to see the Beatles live.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Many years ago, many, many years ago, but there's that.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I actually have conducted the Houston Grand Opera Orchestra.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of fun.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of fun, I'll tell you.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And wait, do you know how to conduct?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not I don't know.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, well, yeah, yeah.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I could.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, and enough to do what I needed to do.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was in an opera.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and finally, um maybe people have been taking note of my voice.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people do, and I get asked, you know, have you ever been on television?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or no, the answer is no.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one thing I have done is that I have read books, which you can now find in the talking books section of the Library of Congress.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: I read uh I can remember, it was many years ago, but I can remember a whole slew of Zane Gray Westerns.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, you can literally check my voice out of the Library of Congress.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like the writers of the Purple Sage, all those uh all those classics.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: The um I uh yeah, hopefully everybody has noticed your your your silky voice.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it it really is uh really is wonderful to listen to.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe you should do those ASMR uh videos on YouTube so people can fall asleep to your to your voice describing the reading the the phone book or something, right?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: So why is what you do rewarding?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm just into being of service.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I really am.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's maybe it's a bit cliched these days, but I I I genuinely am.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always want to be of whatever, you know, when somebody reaches out to me, I my response is I always want to be of whatever service I can be.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what that is, but we'll talk.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, could be this, could be that, don't know.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just a conversation.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I'll I'll put something on on that for for myself.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: The way you and I got connected was somebody recommended that I give you a call.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just you know, I was thinking through some things in my career uh as a as a BV expert, and they said, well, you know, you should talk to this guy, John Barrowman.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's out there, he's you know what one of the few people who specializes in that field, etc.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just a really great conversation, and and you provided a lot of insight.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't I I wasn't gonna at that point anyway gonna turn into you know a potential candidate so that you know you could you could place me anywhere um as it turned out.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know that that kind of really really sparked the my recognition that you know you're just a really authentic guy and you really are helpful, and the just the fact that you were willing to take a bunch of time with somebody you didn't know like me to uh to do that, you know, really, really led me down this path of you know, I want to get to know this guy better.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that that that really represents represents it better than I could say it, you know.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're all lifelong learners.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that you're reading or trying to trying to ingest right now uh that uh you know that that's entertaining?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I focus on nonfiction.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um not what I'm reading right now, but I'm just telling you, I focus on nonfiction and I tend to concentrate on um 19th century American history.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: However, I just picked up a book, I've got the title here, titled The Crazies: The Cattleman, The Wind to Prospector, and a War Out West.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very uh engrossing story about how some very wealthy landowners in Montana were just all in on private property rights until one of their neighbors, who wasn't as wealthy, decided he wanted to put up a wind farm.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so the book is about how that battle played out in the courts over a number of years, and really quite fascinating because it's it's it's relevant in terms of wind farms and uh and uh public utilities and what what the what we're facing today.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's really a fascinating story.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so that sounds like it's something a little bit more recent, obviously.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it is, yeah, it's very recent.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Very recent.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not at the end, so as far as I know, it may still be ongoing in some respect.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Fair point.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 42:49
  unknown: Okay.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for sharing.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I know that you've created a bunch of uh really helpful tools uh that people can go and read uh at borrowmanbaker.com.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be in the in the show notes, the link to that uh link to your website.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, on there are some videos that ha have some of these tips and and you know, I uh tips and tricks, but really it's just compressed wisdom and knowledge about hiring and working with candidates and going through that process.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And also uh you have a uh BV practice management toolkit that you've uh that helped help develop.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was it with B VR business evaluation resource?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't recall.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was uh through boy, it was a while back, but I think it was through AI CPA.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: I contributed a chapter to the uh B V practice there we go, whatever they were there putting together at the time.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it was very um very complimented to be asked to uh participate in that.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're a high-profile guy, so it makes sense.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do you do you have anything that you want to offer you know any of the any member of the audience here?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, the the only thing is if you got a question, you're not really certain, we can talk about compensation, we can talk about advancement, just give me a call or reach out to me.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on LinkedIn.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I assume that somewhere in the show notes be a uh phone number, maybe uh an email address.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just reach out, we'll set up something.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, depending on what the issue is, we might start with a real short conversation and then we can just decide whether we want a longer one.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: But don't hesitate, okay?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not out to try to sell you anything.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Really not.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just offer whatever advice could be helpful, and maybe we'll go from there.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's that's exactly why I kind of told the you know the introductory story uh be between you and I, because that's exactly true, and I'll, you know, I'll be your you know, I'll testify to it first.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, you're you're great to work with, thank you.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just enjoy this.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I enjoy recruiting, and I'm an amateur psychologist, and I I I enjoy all the people I've ever met in this profession.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I that's that's nice too.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mostly good people.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly good people I've run across, for sure.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so people can find you uh at at your uh information that we'll put in the show notes.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and John, it's been really lovely having you here uh and the conversation's been great, and and you always provide something interesting and fresh, and it it always has a touch of erudition and wisdom to it, and I just just really love that about you.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, erudition and wisdom.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hope my wife is listening.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: I watch we're recording it, fortunately, so she's she's gonna have to watch.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's no doubt.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's gonna have to watch.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she can subscribe then too.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there that's it.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, thanks, man.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a lot of fun.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate it, man.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wrap.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: You've been listening to Max Value Podcast.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if this episode provided any interesting information, hit that subscribe button, smash a like, and drop a comment below.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how televisory.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'll catch you next time.