Latest / The CMO Podcast with Fexingo: Marketing Leadership, Budgets, and Executive Strategy / How CMOs Use Permission to Beat Ad Fatigue
Transcript
- Lucas: So Luna, I was looking at the latest digital ad engagement numbers this morning, and they're genuinely grim. Average click-through rates on display ads have been sliding for years, and in 2026 they're hovering around 0.05 percent. That's not a rounding error, that's a statement. Luna: 0.05 percent. That's basically a coin flip with a thousand sided coin. Lucas: Exactly. And the response from a lot of CMOs has been to double down — more frequency, more retargeting, more programmatic. But the ones who are actually winning are doing the opposite. They're stepping back and asking a much more basic question: did we ever get permission to talk to these people in the first place? Luna: Permission. That's a word that feels almost old school. But I keep hearing it pop up in strategy docs lately. Lucas: It's having a real moment. Seth Godin wrote about permission marketing back in 1999, but for a long time it felt like a nice theory. Now, with privacy regulations like GDPR and Apple's app tracking transparency, permission has shifted from a philosophy to a hard operational constraint. And the CMOs who treat it as an asset, not a limitation, are seeing engagement numbers that look like they're from another decade. Luna: Like what? Give me a concrete number I can bring to a dinner party. Lucas: Okay, so email is the classic permission channel. The average open rate for a cold email campaign is somewhere around 20 percent. But for permission-based emails, where someone explicitly opted in, we're seeing open rates above 40 percent, and sometimes much higher. That's not just a small lift, that's a doubling of attention. Luna: And attention is the whole game now. The CMO's job used to be buying reach. Now it's earning it. Lucas: That's the pivot. And I think the clearest example of a brand that's built its entire marketing around permission is Apple. But not just through their privacy features. Look at how they talk about it. Their ads don't say 'buy our phone.' They say 'we respect your data.' That message, repeated consistently, turns a negative — the fact that they can't track you as easily — into a trust signal. Luna: It's brilliant because it also flips the script on the entire ad tech industry. They're saying, 'we're the one company that won't treat you like a product.' Lucas: And it works because it's authentic to their business model. They make money selling hardware, not surveillance. So their permission-based approach isn't a marketing gimmick, it's a structural advantage. Luna: But what about a company that's built on advertising? A social platform or a free news site. Can they genuinely do permission marketing without killing their revenue? Lucas: That's the hard question, and I think the honest answer is: it's different, but not impossible. Take Spotify. They're not a privacy-first company in the Apple sense, but they've become a master of a specific kind of permission: the permission to use personal data in exchange for something valuable. Luna: Are you talking about Spotify Wrapped? Lucas: Of course. Every December, Spotify gets hundreds of millions of people to voluntarily engage with their own listening data. And more importantly, they get people to share that data with their friends. The entire campaign is built on the fact that users have given Spotify permission to collect their data, and in return, Spotify gives them a personalized story they genuinely want to share. Luna: And it's not just a fun gimmick. It actually reinforces the brand relationship. I remember reading that Spotify Wrapped drives a huge spike in app opens and even some subscription conversions. Lucas: Exactly. And that's the thing about permission marketing — it's not just about getting the initial opt-in. That's table stakes. The real skill is in maintaining and deepening that permission over time. Spotify does it by delivering consistent value. Every time they send you a playlist, it's because you've shown interest in that kind of music. They're not blasting everyone with the same message. Luna: So it's about relevance. Permission without relevance is just another form of spam, just with a nicer label. Lucas: Right. And that's why some CMOs are skeptical. They see permission as a constraint on scale. But I'd argue the opposite. If you're a brand with a million opted-in customers, that's a million people who've told you they want to hear from you. That's a much more valuable audience than ten million people you've rented from a data broker. Luna: And the value isn't just in engagement. It's in resilience. If the ad platform du jour changes its algorithm or a new privacy law hits, your permission list is an asset that doesn't disappear overnight. Lucas: That's a really good point. And I want to get into a specific case that I think illustrates the pitfalls and the potential. Let's talk about a consumer brand that tried to do permission marketing and stumbled. I'm thinking of a large retail chain that launched a loyalty program a few years ago. They asked for email and phone numbers at checkout, and they called it a 'VIP club.' But they didn't really offer anything exclusive. The emails were just their regular weekly circular with a different header. Luna: Ouch. So they got the permission but then they abused it. They assumed that just because someone gave them the email, they could treat it like any other channel. Lucas: Exactly. And predictably, the open rates tanked, the unsubscribe rates climbed, and the whole program became a liability. The CMO at the time was quoted in a trade publication saying they 'didn't see the point of all this permission stuff.' That quote aged like milk. Luna: So what's the lesson for CMOs listening? How do you do permission right without falling into that trap? Lucas: The framework I like has three parts. First, the value exchange has to be real. If you're asking for a phone number, you better be sending them something that's worth more than the annoyance of a text message. Second, the permission needs to be granular. Let them choose what they want to hear about — promotions, product news, educational content. Don't just have one big 'yes' or 'no'. Luna: And the third? Lucas: You have to prove you're listening. If someone clicks on a link about new running shoes, don't send them a dancewear promotion the next day. Use the data they've given you to show you're paying attention. That's how you turn a one-time opt-in into an ongoing relationship. Luna: And that's what makes it different from just 'good email marketing.' It's a mindset shift from thinking about campaigns to thinking about relationships. Lucas: Exactly. And it's a shift that's showing up in the budget. More and more CMOs are reallocating money from paid acquisition to owned channels — email, push notifications, even SMS. Because with permission, the cost per conversion can be dramatically lower. I've seen some brands report that their permission-based channels have a return on investment that's three to five times higher than their paid social. Luna: And there's a macro trend that supports this. Consumers are more skeptical of ads than ever. The same study that said 76 percent of people are more likely to buy from a brand they follow also showed that most people actively avoid ads on social media. Lucas: So the choice for CMOs is becoming stark: keep paying for interruptive attention that's getting more expensive and less effective, or build a base of people who have actively chosen to hear from you. And it's not just about email — it's about any channel where the user has a choice. Think about mobile push notifications. The average opt-in rate for a mobile app is around 40 percent. But for apps that explain why they're asking before they ask, that rate jumps to 60 or 70 percent. Luna: That's a huge difference. And it shows that a little transparency goes a long way. Lucas: Absolutely. And this is where I think the conversation gets interesting from a leadership perspective. The CMO who embraces permission isn't just changing tactics. They're changing the relationship between the brand and the consumer. And that requires a different kind of courage. Because it means saying no to some short-term wins. Luna: Like what? Lucas: Like buying a bunch of cheap social traffic that converts once but never comes back. Or pushing a viral campaign that gets millions of impressions but zero lasting brand lift. Permission marketing forces you to think in terms of lifetime value, not just last-click attribution. Luna: And that's a harder sell to a CFO who wants to see this quarter's numbers. But the CMOs who've made the leap talk about the compounding effect. Each year, their permission list gets bigger, their data gets richer, and their cost per acquisition gets lower. Lucas: It's like the difference between renting an apartment and building a house. Renting is easier up front, but you never have anything to show for it. Building takes time and effort, but after a few years, you have an asset that appreciates. Luna: And with privacy regulations only getting tighter, that house is going to become more valuable, not less. Lucas: Totally. And honestly, this is one of those topics where I feel like we're just scratching the surface. There's so much more to dig into — like how to measure the true value of a permission, or how to handle the transition when you're inheriting a brand that's been playing the interruption game for years. Luna: And if you're a marketer listening, these are the kinds of conversations that make you think. We're glad you're here. And if you've gotten something out of these episodes, we'd love to keep bringing them to you. A couple of dollars a month is genuinely what keeps this going. If you're able, you can support us at buy me a coffee dot com slash fexingo. Lucas: Yeah, and it really does make a difference. Every little bit helps us keep the podcast ad-free and focused on the substance. But back to the strategy — one thing I want to stress is that permission isn't a one-time checkbox. It's a muscle you have to work out. The brands that succeed are the ones that treat it as a daily discipline, not a campaign. Luna: And I think that's the closing thought. Permission is not a marketing tactic, it's a business philosophy. And the CMOs who get that are the ones who'll be leading the next decade. Lucas: Well said. And if you want to keep this conversation going, we'll be back next week with a fresh angle. Until then, stay curious.