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The Power of No · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is the lovely Matt Lansdel. Today's episode is called the Power of no. It's about breaking free from people pleasing and learning how to say no with clarity, confidence, and kindness. So the questions Matt and I will be exploring today are how people pleasing affects our sense of self and overall life satisfaction, how we handle the icky feeling of guilt and disappointing others when we say no, and how we have become more adept at saying no, even with our people pleasing tendencies. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, so if you've been listening to us for a while, you guys know that both Matt and I identify as recovering people pleasers. We both have done a lot of work and still do a lot of work on saying no and that inner work that goes with it. So we get it. We truly do get it when we're coming at you today. Okay, now, the biggest pushback I get when I'm teaching people how to say no is, but, Michael, aren't you just saying that we should never compromise and make sacrifices? Isn't that just being selfish? And to that I say no. That's not at all what I'm saying. Okay, So I want to get this out of the way before we jump into the questions today. I think it's important that we kind of clarify this before we start. And get out your notebooks for this. If you're one of those listeners who likes to take notes. And I know you guys are out there. There are two kinds of yeses. There's a people pleasing yes and an intentional sacrifice kind of a yes. And I'll give you two examples from my real life. See if you can spot the difference. Okay, these actually happened to me. A friend asks me to move. Help him move on Saturday. Okay. I'm exhausted. I've had a long week. My weekend is already pretty packed. So doing this on Saturday morning is going to be really tight for me. But I feel like if I say no, it's going to make me a bad friend. He's a good friend of mine. I really care about him and I worry about disappointing him and I worry that it's going to create conflict between us, which obviously I don't want. So I say yes, even though it's not what I want. I wake up early Saturday morning. I'm already resentful because I'm up early Saturday morning. I rush to his house, rush through all the tasks, and I'm just kind of wanting it to be over. I'm not really present. I'm not really showing up as fully as a good friend as I can be showing up or as I know I can be. And internally I'm irritated, I'm seething on the inside and. And sometimes it seeps out in my tone or in my actions. Okay, that is a people pleasing yes. And now let's look at the second type of yes, which I call an intentional sacrifice yes. Also a real life example from my life. It's my nephew's first communion on Sunday. It is a two hour drive to get there. I don't have a car, so I have to either figure out a car, rent one, take a train, whatever. I gotta figure out how to get there. Sundays are my sacred Michael days. Okay? Now I'm not even religious, so I could give less than a poop about first communions. It's not my jam at all. And there are literally a hundred other things I could be doing with my day on that Sunday. But I love my nephew and my whole family's going to be there. And I love spending time with my family. And family genuinely is really, really important to me, even if religious traditions are not. So in the same example, I say yes even though it's not what I want. Same thing. But when I'm there, my focus is on my family. My focus is on my nephew. I'm present, I'm happy to be there. I want to be there. I'm enjoying the delicious food, the company, I'm having a good time. Even if I don't care for the church, even if it was really inconvenient for me, I'm still acting in integrity with a deeper value, which is my family. Okay, so what are the differences there? As always on this podcast, you know, the answer is the difference is in how you feel and the emotion behind it. Right? So if you notice the emotion driving my yes in the first example was fear. Fear of conflict and fear of disappointing my friend. Whereas the emotion driving my yes in the first communion example was one of love for my family, my nephew. Okay? And then notice the feelings when I was there in the moment when I'm helping my friend move, I'm doing It physically. But internally, I'm resentful when I'm irritated versus when I'm actually at my nephew's first communion. Even though I really don't want to be there in terms of the church, I'm having a good time and I'm happy to be there. Okay, so here's a question I want you to ask yourself before you say yes. If you are a people pleaser. Am I doing this because I truly want to and only you know the answer to that in your heart of hearts, you know. Or am I doing this because I'm afraid of how they will react if I say no? Am I doing this because I truly want to or because of how they're going to react if I say no? That's the reflection question I want you to take with you. Now, why am I sharing this before we have a whole episode about no? Our episode is about saying no today. Right? So I want you guys to know that this episode is not about refusing to do anything for anyone. That's not what Matt and I are advocating for here. Compromise is essential in all healthy relationships. So today we're actually focusing on those moments where you say yes at your own expense, when you override your own deepest needs and desires, when you suppress your voice, when you really want to say something, or when you betray yourself just to keep the peace. So that's what we're talking about today. All right. I'm excited to get started with you, Matt.
• 5:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, me too.
• 5:26
  Speaker A: Okay, let's start talking about people pleasing because both of us have had similar journeys. What was the tipping point for you in your life when you realized you really needed to stop people pleasing and start prioritizing yourself?
• 5:39
  Speaker B: This is a multi layered question. So I've had two weeks to sit on these questions because we didn't record last week. So. And all sorts of things came through. I kind of broke it down into two categories because it is so multi layered for me. Because I was thinking, I'm like, I don't really people please anymore. Like, because I was thinking about it in one lane, like one category. And that's true. But then I'm thinking, I'm like, why do I keep burning out? Why do I keep saying yes to clients when I should be saying no or whatever it might be. So the two areas for me, the first one would being like, changing who I am to fit in type of people pleasing. Right. For me, that comes from the injury of being gay, growing up gay, and feeling like I have to be inauthentic in Order to fit in. So that one's really rooted in the fear of rejection. Okay, that one, I can truly say this, like, fully healed, like I don't carry any of that stuff anymore. I'm pretty much a non conformist. I'm kind of a lone wolf. I do my own thing. Like, I don't play into the whole society thing around, you have to be, whatever. I'm very, very out as a gay man. I'm out as a sensitive man. I, I'm very proud to be all these things. Okay, so that lane's good. I don't drive in that lane anymore. But the saying yes when I should be saying no. That one I'm still working on. And it's interesting because my business is my barometer for how I'm doing with that one. Because when I'm doing well with it, my business starts to increase and I start to get more success, whatever, however you want to define that. But then when more success comes and I start saying yes more and I start to go through the call, like the burnout cycle, my business starts to decline, right? So the universe is like kind of always supporting me because it's like, no, you still gotta learn this lesson. And I keep failing at this lesson because I just think for me it's like really, this one is really rooted in a fear of disappointing people. And the meaning I make of disappointing people is that I will lose connection with them, they'll disapprove of me, I'll lose connection with them. And it brings up this like really intense anxiety for me. And I'm. I track it back to, you know, growing up in a, in a home where there was a lot of stuff going on and a lot of chaos and I developed a codependency with my mom. And then that was perpetuating guilt, like guilting me into not individuating, not kind of separating from her. And so whenever I would go off and do my own thing or I would have boundaries or I would say no, um, I was guilted into. So this brings up a lot of like childhood stuff for me. And I think that's why I have a real hard time with, with saying no. So for me, it's not really about a, like a tipping point. It's been about like just a series of almost like choices that I'm having to constantly be making to honor myself. And it does feel like, almost like it's layered, like all of these experiences where I tried to individuate as a child and they were shut down or I was shamed or guilt tripped for it. They're like kind of layers, and I'm having to, like, work through this. And I think this is. For me, it's a lot of inner child work. Like, healing people pleasing is about going back to the scene of the crime of my inner child or children that had to endure those. Those experiences. So. And when I was a real intense people pleaser, that was when both of these were compounded. Right. So thankfully I was able to relieve myself of one. And I'm kind of right on the edge of relieving myself from this other one. But it's. Yeah. Some deep work is required to get.
• 9:03
  Speaker A: Here with that first lane that you talked about. And I think a lot of people can resonate with that. I certainly can. But when you were in it, did you know you were people pleasing or. Or did the symptoms come up first and then you kind of said, oh, shit, I'm people pleasing with the first.
• 9:17
  Speaker B: One meaning, like the changing who I am to fit in? Yeah, I think at the time I. And this has always been a part of me. I remember all my friends when I was like, probably 10 years old, they're all like, oh, we love our Lady Peace and Tragically Hip and all this stuff, and I hated it, but I would pretend that I liked it because I wanted to be, like, cool with them or, you know, making sure that you have, like, the no Fear shirt. I don't know if you remember that brand, or like, reading Goosebump books and these things. Like, it's like you do these things because you want to fit in with the group and you want to have, you know, when they're all talking about the Goosebump book or. Or their new shirt, like you want to be able to talk about it. So you. It's almost like there's a young part in me that felt like I had to do that in order to get belonging, approval, acceptance. So I think it's fairly normal for us to do that. And then, you know, you throw the gay wound in there. And I think that that really intensified it for me because I feel like I had to really fully change who I was. And a lot of my people pleasing actually was really, like, rooted in masculinity and like performing masculinity so then that way I could fit in. And I think that is a form of people pleasing is trying to be something that you're not. Right. Creating Personas and facades of who we are. That really is a. It's a fawn trauma response in my Opinion?
• 10:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me it's that that inner child, for me is, is the one who wanted to be the good boy. I always had this big need and desire to be the good boy. And so that meant a lot of people pleasing. Like I want to be seen as the good boy. Therefore my needs don't matter. I just need to please whoever it is, my teachers, my parents, whoever, adults in my life. But that, that kept going, that pattern kept going. I didn't just like turn 18 and stop. It just kept going in life and life and life. And then for me, my tipping point was when I started to get very irritated and irritable with like the world.
• 11:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:12
  Speaker A: And my time, you know, you guys know, my time is, you know, what I consider my most sacred asset is time because it's finite for all of us and we don't even know when it's going to end. Right? So it's extremely finite. So for me, my issue's been about saying yes to my time. And you know, like those examples that I gave were all about my time, right? Spending time with my family, spending time with my friends. I would, when I was younger, I would just say yes to everything because I, first of all didn't want to miss out. There was some fomo, to be honest. But also because I didn't want to be the bad friend or be the bad boyfriend or be the bad employee or be the bad son or be the bad brother or be the bad uncle, all those things. So for me, that good boy mentality sticks through. And the tipping point for me was just, yeah, being super irritable. So I would be very short tempered, you know, I would be half in and half out. Like I'd be here with you, but actually my mind was on like something else or I just didn't want to be there. It just isn't, it wasn't the way I wanted to show up. And so I didn't know I was people pleasing. That's why I had asked you that question until like, I looked into it, like, why am I so irritable and why am I so irritated at people? Why am I so resentful of people? And in my head I was thinking, why do I have to do this? Why do I have to do this? Why do I have to do this? And it dawned on me, I don't have to do anything. Yeah, that was it. It's like, oh, I'm putting myself through this. I. I'm in a prison of my own making here. I'm making myself do this and this needs to stop. And that's when the light went off. I was like, oh, okay, I need to start saying no.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, I want to answer it differently because you just inspired me. You inspired a thought. And that's the part of me. I actually have a bit of a. I don't even want to call it a shadow side. It's maybe like a. The fawn trauma response turned into a fight trauma response. And in a healthy way, like, I learned how to self protect. I learned how to become fierce and I came into my power. And so for me, being vulnerable publicly, like, this is an act of rebellion to the part of. Of myself that felt like it had to be closeted or shut down. And not just for being gay, but in the. The patriarchy is trying to shut men's emotions down, right? It's trying to say men are. Should not have emotions, men should not be vulnerable. And I think when I do this work, I come at it from compassion and love, but I also come at it from fire. There's a fire in me that's like, you know, like, no, you're not going to silence my emotions. You're not going to, you know, so there's that piece to it as well. And I'm wondering if you resonate with that. Like, if you grew up with this good boy mentality. Like, is there a part of you that rebels against that and in the way that you express your authenticity.
• 13:39
  Speaker A: Hell yeah. And sometimes I think what happens is it went too far. Like, the pendulum swung so far the other way that I was maybe too boundaried, if you want to call it that. And then of course, there's a happy middle ground. And I can't say I always get it right. Sometimes I still do find myself wanting to people please. And sometimes I do. And then I don't notice until I'm like, oh, shit, I should have. I don't want to be doing this thing. Or I should have said no. But, yeah, I think you're right. I think I. I have gone the opposite way now. You know this from working with me and from knowing me. I'm very sacred about my time these days. And it is like I hold it so precious and so close. And I only give my best time to certain people when I want to. And everything else is a no. And it's so much easier for me to say no that I see my time and energy. It's not just time, actually. It's energy. Let's call it what it is. It's also my Energy. Right. I give the best of me to the people that have earned it and that I think have deserved it, whether it's a friend, a family member, a client, business partner, whatever. But I've been very intentional with it.
• 14:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, I'm the same. I think that's why one of the biggest disrespects for me is when people are late constantly and they don't respect my time because time is. It's my most precious resource as well. For sure.
• 14:48
  Speaker A: I hear you. All right, let's hear from the audience. Let's check in with our viewers and listeners out there. If you're watching us on YouTube, tell us in the comments, what is the hardest part of saying no for you? When you think about saying no to someone, what's the hardest thing about that? Okay, write that in the comments. And reminder, guys, we will be continuing these discussions every Thursday. We host either a sharing circle or a connection circle that you can attend. Connection circles are where you get to discuss the same topics we talk about here on the podcast with other members of our community in small breakout rooms. Sharing circles, on the other hand, are larger gatherings where you can share your experiences and insights. You can come to watch or you can listen. It's a little bit more passive. Okay, go to gay mensbrotherhood.com and make sure you're on our email list, and we'll send you all the details. All right, let's talk about one of the biggest obstacles people have to saying no and how maybe we've managed it. So how do you deal with the guilt or fear of hurting other people's feelings when you say no?
• 15:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. See, this is the big kahuna for me.
• 15:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:50
  Speaker B: And what I've had to learn and what I'm learning right now and what I'm actually moving through, like, very, very, like, recent in my own. In my life and even working on this in my own therapy is the recognition that these are all, like, it's not about the instance in this moment. It's not about the present. It's about the past. So when I say no to people, the present moment isn't affected. It's the past that's being dragged into the present. So I call it like an emotional flashback. Right. Or implicit memory of when I did try to individuate and, like, be in my sense of self. And it was. I was shamed or guilted for that. Right. It was like, no, like, stay home with me tonight. Like, I'm lonely. Like, that sort of thing. Don't go out and then that would really put it on me. Like I can't, you know, me trying to individuate was not a healthy thing. So I didn't actually develop that. That's like strong sense of self as a kid, which is why it really affects me when I have to set boundaries or kind of step into. And really what that's rooting on is, you know, if you go to the bottom, bottom layer, it's fear of abandonment. Right. Because if I am there for myself, I'll be abandoned. Right. And as a young child, you're not really able to be there for yourself. Right. So when you're. It's either abandonment or like dishonor yourself. Right. You're almost exchanging your authenticity for connection or safety with your parent. Right. With your parent figure, which is super unfair. But it usually comes from a parental figure who was basically taught codependency from their parent. Right. It's kind of passed down intergenerationally. And in my opinion, it comes from an unsafe inner child that was never healed. And then that inner child is kind of wreaking havoc in that parent's life, doesn't want the child to individuate because they will feel abandoned by their child. So they encourage their child to abandon themselves for. For them. Right. So then it perpetuates self abandonment within the family system. And that's really what. What I was impacted by as a child. So, and I see it, I see it so clearly. And so whenever it comes up in the present moment, I have to just remind myself, I'm like, this is an emotional flashback. This isn't actually this big. Like it's not that big of a deal. Like I told somebody that I can't. What, you know, come out and hang out with them. Sure, they might be disappointed, but really what's happening is my inner child is feeling terrified because it's recreating a past memory in the present moment and it's making it feel bigger, bigger than it is. So. So how I've dealt with this in the past. So the two responses that I've employed most of my life are Fawn and flight. Right. So flight meaning get busy. It's not so much for me about leaving a situation, it's about getting busy and like becoming really distracted from my emotions. And then Fawn is also a distraction from my emotions by focusing on other people's needs. So all of my work in the last little bit has been. And this is probably why I've been struggling with depression, because depression slows you down. Slows me down and I have to be with myself. So slowing down and being with all of these feelings is really the way to, to get comfortable with the guilt and fear that comes up and then like just soothing that part that feels extremely terrified about letting people down and losing connection and ultimately being abandoned. So the slowing down and then I think the other one for me is like just reminding myself that I'm not responsible for the reactions that people have to my boundaries and that's their responsibility. So I, I kind of do this exercise where, you know, as a child I always felt like I had a cord connected to my mother and like I could feel everything she was feeling. So I have to visualize kind of like a separateness, like almost like she's in that lane, I'm in this lane. Like we're separate beings, I'm separate from her. So I'll do this kind of visualization of being separate from the person that I'm having this, this with. And then I'll visualize coming into like connection with my inner child. Right. Like, so it's like he doesn't need to be scared because I can reparent him. I'm here for him now. And kind of bringing those two together has been very therapeutic for me. So that's a very therapy oriented answer. But I think, you know, it's getting to the root of this stuff, I think is the main thing, like we can have symptom management of it, which you know, is like being assertive and these sorts of things. But the roots below we have to I think address because there's a reason why we're fawning. Right. It's. It was adaptive in childhood, but it's no longer adaptive as an adult.
• 20:11
  Speaker A: Yeah, you're saying all the same things with different, more therapeutic type of words, as I would have said. So it works if this is what works for you. And it's the same thing that works for me in a different kind of different words. But it's the same, same two things, right? It's that self talk. So for me, I acknowledge that I could be feeling guilt, but not actually be guilty because I have not actually done anything wrong. And that feeling of guilt is just old stuff, you know. You call it an emotional imprint from childhood. Sure, yeah. It's just my old wiring, if you want to call it that. So it's not going to go away overnight. Especially because we know emotions linger, they last, they stay. Right. I could rationalize it with my adult brain, but my emotional self is still very much that little boy. Right?
• 20:52
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:53
  Speaker A: So giving myself room to feel like, okay, yeah, this is the part where I feel guilty and just build it into my process. I'm going to say no. I'm going to feel guilty about it. I'm going to like, check myself and say, wait, did I actually do anything wrong here? No, it's not wrong to advocate for myself. It's not wrong to prioritize myself. You know, I. And a big thing for me, and I know for you as well, because you do this really well, is how you say, no, I'm not just like, go fuck yourself. No. If it's someone I love and they matter to me, I say no with a lot of kindness and love. And, you know, if I can find a compromise or like, I'll find a compromise. Right? So in the instance of my friend, helping him move, what I could have said and should have said and would do going forward is say, listen, I would love to help you move, but I cannot. And I will not on Saturday. But here's what I can do. I can come over on Friday and help you pack, or maybe I can come over on Sunday and help you decorate or unpack. You know, does that work for you? If so, then I'm happy to be there, right? So that way I'm still. I'm left with a more of a clear conscience, depending on if I can compromise. Not always can I do that? But yeah, like saying your no with lots of love and kindness. Then as I leave room for myself to feel guilty, I also leave room for them to be disappointed. And then it's like, of course you're disappointed. I would be disappointed too, if my friend couldn't come to something that I wanted to, you know, if the situation was reversed. And that's okay, you know, I'm allowed to feel a little bit guilty. He's allowed to feel a little bit disappointed. We all still love each other. Nothing has gone wrong. Right?
• 22:20
  Speaker B: Yeah, I love that.
• 22:21
  Speaker A: That's been a big piece of it for me. And guilt, you know, for all the Catholics and religious folks out there, they do a really good job trying to manipulate us with guilt. So, you know, if you come from that kind of a background, then don't be too hard on yourself for feeling that emotional, like, heaviness that guilt comes with or that comes with.
• 22:41
  Speaker B: It's has such a huge impact, you know, like the Catholic guilt. I grew up Catholic, but I. I was too rebellious to buy into any of the things. So thankfully, because I didn't, I wouldn't Want that conditioning. But yeah, and then the good boy stuff, right? Like, that's probably related to growing up Catholic as well.
• 22:58
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. Yeah. And then the other thing you said I love too, which, you know, the way I call it is that, you know, you said that that space between their feelings and yours, I call that like the sphere of control and the sphere of influence. Like you, you cannot control how someone is going to react to what you say, but you can absolutely influence it by the words you choose, the tone, how you do it. Right. So that's what I try to lean in is like, they might be disappointed. That's totally fine. I totally get it. And they're allowed to be disappointed. But I'm going to try to do this from the most loving, kind place so that hopefully it lands not so harshly. And then. Yeah, letting them have that reaction, I think is such an empowering thing because we have no business controlling other people's emotions, just as we have no business trying to control what they think of us. Right.
• 23:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I do something else too, that can. Might be helpful to the audience. So I've kind of put my hand on my heart. Well, as this all has to be within presence, right? So you got to kind of get still and you got to hold your hand on your heart and hold your one hand out and like, just be like, I am me, you are you. I am me, you are you. And really kind of creating like separateness, like, you know, because I think sometimes when usually people who struggle with these things are going to be people that struggle with a meshment and codependency and poor boundaries and these sorts of things. So it's really about coming back and rediscovering and finding your sense of self. Like, you know, you're separate from people and that you're okay to, you know, have needs and to have boundaries and to feel your emotions and these sorts of things. So it. It really is a. For me, it's been a lifelong thing. It's been one of the. One of the harder things I've had to transform in my life, which is codependency, which is in that, in the umbrella of codependency. I see things like people pleasing, insecure, attachment, enmeshment, differentiation, learning how to differentiate. Like, these are all really things that I put in that. Under that big umbrella of codependency. And it's hard. It's really hard work because it's usually our parents conditioned us into that, whether consciously or unconsciously, because it Was convenient. Right. So yeah, it's tough, it's tough stuff.
• 24:57
  Speaker A: You just inspired another thought within me which was someone who truly cares about you and loves you. If you say to them, listen, you know, I would love to do this for you but I can't or I'm not going to with all the love and here's why. I just, I'm really tired, I'm exhausted, I can't, I don't have the bandwidth to do it. All these things, if you say it in that way and they truly care about you, they're going to say, oh my gosh, like of course I get it. Like they're going to be understanding and empathetic. If they have a negative reaction to that and this is someone you call a friend or a loved one, then you know, I would question the relationship dynamic there.
• 25:27
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's tough. I think so many people are operating within these programs that they're not even aware of them. Right. I think there's a self serving program that people operate within which can be, people have learned how to, whether it be become hyper independent or manipulative or these sorts of things to survive their childhood. And a lot of people don't even realize that they're, that they're playing out those programs. But I agree with your statement. I think people that are operating within compassion and love and consciousness will see that like this is I'm being selfish or you know, I'm like these sorts of things. So it's, it becomes tricky when you're pulling this stuff into relational dynamic, especially in romantic relationships. There's a fine line between personal and relational needs in a relationship and it can be really hard to discern like okay, is this something I should be meeting for myself or is this something that know my partner should meet for me? And, and then there's the ideologies around that like some, a partner might not think that they have to meet that for you relationally and then you feel like they should. And so that's why relationships are so tricky and.
• 26:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, but all these examples I think are really good opportunities for people to come, whether it's romantic or friendship, for people to become closer. Right? Exactly. When I show up and I'm very vulnerable with you about something that I'm going through that and that's the reason why I'm saying no to you. It's not because I don't like you. It's not because I'm being an asshole. But I'm saying no to protect something within myself or to honor My own needs. It offers me that opportunity to, like, let you into my emotional world a little bit, which creates the connection.
• 26:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. Because then if you're. I know for myself, like, when I feel safe to say no to somebody, I actually will end up in the long run, I'll have more connection with them. It's because when some. I don't feel safe to say no to somebody, I will not want to be around them because they don't feel safe to me. So it's something we can remember. When somebody gives us a no, is that okay? Right now, it's a no. But they're going to feel safe. If I'm tactful in the way that I receive their no, they're more likely going to be able to approach me and they're going to want more connection in the long run with me. Right. So, yes. But it can. It can feel tough. Like, I know for me, having a. An unhealed abandonment wound, it can feel really scary when somebody says no or they reject connection. It can feel scary. So I want to honor both sides of the coin here that, you know, it can feel scary offering a no, but it can also feel scary receiving a no from somebody, and that can bring up all the feels. So. And that's why I think, you know, I want to reiterate what you said is just finding tact, like offering our no with tact. And really, like, we've talked on previous episodes about letting people down and rejecting people with tact as well, because it's a lot of us are walking around with really tender and sensitive hearts, and I think it's really. We want to really honor that. It's not easy being human and navigating relationships. So when we can be more compassionate with each other, I think it's the best approach.
• 28:15
  Speaker A: Don't you find? We always end up saying the same things on the podcast. It always goes back to the same things. Vulnerability, compassion, like being very kind, conscious, intentional. It's always the same stuff applied in many different ways. But it works, my friends.
• 28:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So true.
• 28:29
  Speaker A: All right. If you guys are enjoying this conversation and you want more delicious tips on setting boundaries and saying no, we invite you to go check out our coaching collection. First of all, there's a course there called Building Better Relationships, which is in and of itself a great start to all of this. But even within the coaching collection library, there is a relationships section. And within that section, there are some videos that I think would be really helpful that go even deeper on what we're Talking about here, some of those videos are five steps to Hard Conversations, the Power of saying no Boundaries 101, clear communication and Authentic self Expression. So if you have the coaching collection, go check that out. If you don't have the coaching collection, get on it. You get lifetime access to our two courses, plus over 45 coaching videos, including the ones I just mentioned. So if you're interested in that, please go to www.gaymangoingdeeper.com. all right, Matt, what advice do you have for someone who wants to get better at saying no?
• 29:28
  Speaker B: Like I said, it's, you know, you could go on ChatGPT and just type in how to get better at saying no. It's going to give you the traditional shit, right? Like the, you know, be assertive and you know, make direct eye contact and you know, there's. Those things are really important because they're. We, we need to have tangible relational skills. I call those in order to say no. Right. But relational skills can only be delivered with power and with meaning if we have self awareness of where it's coming from, where the fear is coming from, right. And we have healed some of the wounding that's preventing us from being able to step into our power. And then relational skills kind of come third, in my opinion. Then we learn those skills, we're able to relate, like navigate relational dynamic with more integrity, with more. And with more everything really when you think about it. So I would say the starting point for me would be explore what the fear is attached to of saying no. Like, why are you scared? Like what's the thing? Go to the root. Nine out of 10 people, I truly, if I believe this, it will be abandonment. You'll go, it'll probably start out, I'll be fear of rejected, I will lose connection. I'll disappoint people. Okay, well let's peel that back a little bit further. Right. And it'll always leads to the fear of abandonment, at least in the people I work with and myself. Not gonna say for everybody, but. So then I would say work on your abandonment wound, right? So go back again to the scene of the crime. Work with your inner child, work with a therapist, do some work with abandonment wounding. I think that's a big piece of it. And oftentimes people associate abandonment wounding with like, oh, my father left when I was nine and I never saw him. That's definitely abandonment wounding. But abandonment wounding could be emotional neglect. Like my parents weren't there for me emotionally, they might have been there for me physically. Maybe they showered you with Gifts, but they were. Did not show up for you emotionally. That's still emotional abandonment. So abandonment, wounding, I think is a lot more prevalent than people think. So I would say that would be a big piece of learning how to, you know, move away from people. Pleasing and getting stronger with your nose would be. Would be that. And then a lot of that work, from my perspective, would be like being with your emotional flashbacks when they come. Why, when you have to say no. The anxiety that comes on and all those feels. You gotta slow down your system. You gotta be with that stuff, in my opinion. And that's gonna lead you to the gold, right? So you can do that with. Within a, you know, a therapeutic setting or, you know, for me, I just do it by myself. Like, I'll just like kind of coach myself through the process as much as possible. If it gets too intense, I can reach out to a friend. But it's really just about reminding yourself that you're not this kid anymore, you're not in this experience, and trying to ground yourself in the present moment and just remind yourself that you're like an adult. And this is just an emotional flashback and you can navigate it. And then the biggest one for me is because I. I did a lot of the fawning and the flight, like the fleeing, right. So distract, get busy. So I've had to learn to slow down. But I think the antithesis of the fawn response is the fight response, right? So like having to learn that self protector, that masculine energy, the yang, that's the part that needs to be developed in somebody that has an overdeveloped fawn response or like that feminine, more passive thing. I think it's that fight response that we have to really activate. So that could, you know, there's lots of things that you can do to do that embodiment work. Self defense classes could be like a way that you could get into your power and like start to move the energy. Different things like that. So those would be just some of the things that come to mind. Yeah, I love that.
• 32:53
  Speaker A: I used to have this fantasy of people coming to my rescue. So in school I always wished I had this best friend who would stand up for me and stick up for me when, like people were talking about me or whatever. I just always wanted someone to like, come stand up for me. And then at work, I remember thinking, in the early days of my corporate job, I remember thinking, I wish people would stop walking all over me. That was like the common thought I had. These people were walking all over me. I wish they would just stop. And then I realized, no one's going to do this for me. No one's going to stand up for me. No one's going to come to my rescue. No one's going to advocate for me. Why? Because it's not their job. You know whose job it is? Mine. And that was me figuring out that my. My. That yang energy was really underdeveloped and missing. And then that was my, aha. It's like, wait a minute, you know, I'm the best person for this job. Who better to advocate for me than me? Who better to stand up for me than me? Right? Yeah. And if people are walking all over me, then it's my job to get up off the floor and start asserting some boundaries. Right. And that for me was like the beginning of my, like, rebellion, going back to the word that you had used. So, yeah, I would say for anyone out there, you really need to take ownership of this. Like, no one is coming to save you. You are the only one responsible. And finding that power within you to start doing it.
• 34:02
  Speaker B: It's a tough spot to be in because I'm thinking. I'm also reflecting on that too. And I think that's why we developed the fawn response is because we have this, I call it like a salvation fantasy. Like that someone's going to come along and save our inner child. It's, I think, why a lot of people get into relationships with un. Healthy people or whatever. It's like, you know, we're looking for somebody to come and save us. And that's again, like you said, it's an overdeveloped fawn trauma response. And I think young gay boys, I think we, a lot of us don't develop that fight energy because fight energy has to come from overt. You're putting yourself out there. You're in your authentic self. Right. And you're standing up to people. Whereas a lot of us develop an inauthentic self to relate to the world. We have to hide who we are. Right. So we're over developing Fawn. Right. So I think it's a thing. And maybe that, you know, we could even talk more about this in another episode is how to develop that fight response, like things that you can do. Because it really could be an episode on its own. And how to get into more of that. I don't even like using masculine feminine, but just it's. It's an easy concept for people to grasp, but I know it can trigger people. So if it's, you know, you can use yin Yang. Like it's no different. We all have both of these energies in us, right?
• 35:11
  Speaker A: Yeah. And even as I'm saying it now, you might hear my voice, be very empowered and very confident, but when I do it, I'm actually very shaky. Even as I first started. Like, it sounds very empowering to say, like, yeah, I'm going to take my power back and reclaim my power. But trust me, guys, when you actually do it, it's okay for you to like to have a shaky voice and to have sweaty palms and to have this gross feeling in your gut like you gotta start somewhere. So yeah, let it be shaky, let it be hard, but do it anyway. And those first five times you say no are gonna be very difficult and you're gonna feel that same way I just, I just described. But you got to start small and build confidence.
• 35:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And it's not like you're developing this and it's just going to be there and you can always, you're always going to be in it. It's like these are parts, right? Like that we can access and have each. And I think you look at these four ways of responding to fear. Essentially you have fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Right. I think it's important to have and understand the ones you've had to employ as a child or growing up. Right. Which ones did you grab onto as a way to cope with fear? And then looking at, if you have ones that you've over developed, then you're going to have to learn to develop these other ones. Right. Like, and so these aren't things like to say they're bad like the four Fs. They're not bad things. They're things that they're very, very adaptive and they're actually things that we want to learn and learn how to employ them in life as an adult in an adaptive way. Which would be probably more about having balance amongst all four of them as opposed to overusing one or the other, you know?
• 36:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, I was just going to say knowing when to employ which one. So I liken it to a toolbox. You have a toolbox full of them and you're adept at all of them and you know when to use which or when is the appropriate time versus always relying on the one that is maybe over developed or the only one that you have practiced with. Right?
• 36:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. When would be an appropriate time to use Fawn in your opinion, in a healthy way?
• 37:01
  Speaker A: I mean, for me it's, I'm trying to think of myself here. I In my mind sometimes will say, is this worth me inserting like my opinion or like, is the juice worth a squeeze? It's kind of what I say in my head. Like, is it really worth me getting into an argument? Let's say someone whose opinion I disagree with, like, I could just protect my piece and like not say anything or do I really want to like jump in and say, actually that's not correct. You're wrong. Here's what I think. Right. And so if you want to call that fawning, sometimes I'll just be quiet to protect my own piece, but also the piece in general. And that's been kind of where I, I still do it sometimes I'm like, it's not, not worth it. I'm not going to change this person's mind. Whatever.
• 37:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like family, like a Christmas dinner, right? You might be like extra sweet because it's like, I don't want to go there with these people. Like I don't want today to turn into that.
• 37:48
  Speaker A: Right.
• 37:48
  Speaker B: Job interview. Right. We all are fawning in job interviews. We're not going in there like fighting with these people. It's like we're going to go in there and be sweet and be our best self. So there's a time and a place for each of these four Fs and to employ them in healthy ways. And, and then there's ways where it becomes self sacrificial and it leads into what we're talking about today.
• 38:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. So in the same example, someone was calling me a name or an insult and a different scenario. I may say, okay, no, I'm time to pull out the F fight or something. Right? So it really depends. And that's the thing. And just because I answer one way doesn't mean it's the right way for you. Right. We all have different ways of responding and different outcomes that we want to get from that. Different relationships.
• 38:27
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I want to just say this with the fight. I think the shadow side of it is going to be aggression, right. Angry. And you have to set your boundaries with anger. And then I think the conscious side of it would be self protection. Right. Like just being assertive in your boundaries. Right. So you can have assertion and then you can have aggression. And I think you got to be mindful. But sometimes when we're learning, we're first learning the fight response. And I know this happened for me, I went from fawning in like right over into aggression. I was like, fuck you. Right. I was so angry because I had been like self sacrificing most of my life that I swung to the other end of the pendulum.
• 39:02
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker B: And I think people when they're first learning boundaries and learning the fight response, they can often only be able to set boundaries from anger. Right. And then when we do that, we can easily slide into a shame spiral after. Yep, right. We set the boundary, we're angry, the anger subsides and we're left with, oh shit, what have I done? We. And then we might go into a guilt or shame spiral. So it's just something to be mindful of. Right. Is again learning communication, learning assertiveness is, is a big piece of, of this work too.
• 39:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, I did the same thing. I swung too far to the pendulum as well. But because of that same reason I felt shackled for so long. It was like a big like explosion in a way. Which is why I've landed on and I will always continue to go back to guys, be kind, be kind to you, Be kind to them. Always say your nose from a place of love. It doesn't mean it has to be like lovey dovey, but it has to be kind and clear. You don't need to over explain it. What I say sometimes is if it's an in person thing, practice saying it out loud. Like with my clients we have the benefit of actually coaching. And I'll say, try it on me. Like say it to me as if you're going to say it to, you know, your partner or your boss or whatever it is you're practicing. But even as you practice, what's great is those emotions will pop up and they'll arise. And if you can have someone you can practice with, even if it's just a friend, like notice what comes up for you. Like what are the fears, right? Is it, is that fear of abandonment, Is it that fear of rejection, Is it the fear of disappointment? And rehearse it will make it a little bit easier.
• 40:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, I love that.
• 40:26
  Speaker A: And remember, it's not going to feel good. I really want to say that if you're expecting, yay, the power of no, this is going to feel great. No, I'm sorry. It will feel great eventually. Trust me. Because now when I say no, it's the most liberating, beautiful feeling. But at first that first while that it took months. It took months. And I was even starting off with like easy nos like in an email or like a text with my within a friend group being like, actually guys, you have a great time. I'm not going to join you like, even those were easy ones for me. Easier. But still I had those emotions come up even in a group chat, like a very innocent thing. So, yeah, that's another, I guess, tip I have is start small. Start small with these little things and work your confidence up. And again, always be kind. You know, in that instance, I'd be like, guys, I would love to join you guys. You're going to have a great time. I love you, but I'm just not going to come. I'm not interested. It's not my jam. I'll see you next week.
• 41:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, like, very casual.
• 41:15
  Speaker A: Very, very loving.
• 41:16
  Speaker B: Yeah. I often will use. This isn't in alignment to me. Yeah, it's just an. It's like, you know, I'm not feeling aligned right now. Or it just doesn't. It's not a no or it's not a yes right now. It's for me, you know, I'll let you know if it does become one or something like that. Like, I've just learned, like, loose and easy ways to make it right and to make it about me. Right. Like, this is. It's not in alignment for me, like that sort of thing. And that's what the other person knows. It's not really about them. It's the. I'm not feeling it.
• 41:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and even with you and I, me, when we've done this, when we've had to say no to, you know, each other within our, our business and otherwise, I know that you're going to understand, even if you're disappointed. And you know that I'm going to understand, even if I'm disappointed, right?
• 41:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, there's a reason why people are scared of saying no is because I've. I've said no to people and I've given people. And you'd be like, surprised what's happened. I've been blocked. I've had people say horrible, mean, nasty things like. Because I like things like that. So there's a legitimate reason for people to be. But the thing is, is as you start to learn more about. About this, it's like my no triggered their abandonment, wounding. Right. So they were acting from a place of woundedness, which, if I can create separation from that, I'm like, this isn't about me, this is about them. Something got activated in them. Right. And we're all walking around, like, offering each other these gifts and being able to see ourselves and what needs to be healed. And I think, you know, so in those cases, in, in the moment, it's hard not to take it like, oh, my God. Because then it activates my stuff, right? You have two abandonment wounds, just inverted sides of the abandonment wounds being activated and triggering each other. So the more and more consciousness and the light you shine on this stuff, the more that it will. It'll come to the surface to be healed, and then it won't. It won't ruin your life or rule your life, I should say.
• 42:59
  Speaker A: I had a similar example where someone wanted to do something with me and I had said, no, no thanks. I'm not interested. Not in that way. I did it with a little bit more niceness in it, a little bit more diplomacy. But he got really angry. He just, like, went off the T pin. I was like, whoa. And so I read my message again. And I read his message and I read it. I read mine. And okay, like, I did it with love and kindness. And I just checked myself, like, could I have said it differently? Like, am I happy with the way I showed up? And. And that's why I always say lead with kindness. Because then that guilt is less likely to be there when you look at that and say, you know what? I did the best I could. I delivered this message with love. I stand by my honoring my. No, I stand by my reasons why. If he's going to have a reaction like this, then exactly as you said, Matt. I know that this is on him and not on me.
• 43:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. All right. Any final words, Matt, before I wrap up?
• 43:45
  Speaker B: No.
• 43:46
  Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you, Matt, for sharing all your wisdom and life experience. As always, as a recovering people pleaser, thank you to our listeners and viewers for joining us on this episode. Reminder, guys, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support a donation to the show using a link in the show notes. Or if you're watching us on YouTube, just click on that little thanks button and it'll take care of it for you. By the way, you can also subscribe to get early access to episodes on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free and get access to episodes about three weeks before they are released publicly. So all of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. We thank you for so, so much in advance and we hope to see you at our next event. Remember, guys, check out our website for everything related to the gay men's Brotherhood. Gayman's brotherhood.com. bye.