Latest / Stacked with Jennifer Laforge / Lesley Hawkins - Discounts Can Get the Sale. They Can’t Buy Loyalty.

Transcript

Lesley Hawkins - Discounts Can Get the Sale. They Can’t Buy Loyalty. · Stacked with Jennifer Laforge

• 0:00
  Jen LaForge: Okay, Leslie, thank you so much for being here for everyone uh watching.
• 0:03
  Jen LaForge: Uh we have Leslie Hawkins, who spent over 12 years at Adidas.
• 0:07
  Jen LaForge: So let's start examining that time frame and tell us what you think has changed the most amongst consumer loyalty at Adidas in that time.
• 0:19
  Lesley Hawkins: The biggest thing we noticed was consumers are no longer just buying a logo.
• 0:24
  Lesley Hawkins: They're really more interested in buying the whole story, the whole brand story.
• 0:30
  Lesley Hawkins: They're wanting to understand what are the values of the brand, what do they stand for.
• 0:36
  Lesley Hawkins: And particularly since the pandemic, we've found that consumers are less understanding or forgiving when you make a mistake.
• 0:46
  Lesley Hawkins: So, particularly those brands that, let's say, live in the sustainability space, they're truly making sure consumers are sort of holding them to account that if you live and breed sustainability, that that has to be fully embedded in everything you do, and that there's any sniff of greenwashing, and you're out.
• 1:08
  Lesley Hawkins: Now, for Adidas, obviously that wasn't the challenge.
• 1:12
  Lesley Hawkins: What we really learned about consumers is that we needed to understand that what they were looking for beyond the logo was a sense of community, and that sport and culture were inseparable, and that we really needed to bring those two together.
• 1:31
  Lesley Hawkins: And the better we could do that, the better connection we had with our consumers.
• 1:36
  Jen LaForge: I I love that.
• 1:37
  Jen LaForge: I love that consumers are holding brands more accountable.
• 1:40
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 1:41
  Jen LaForge: I'm veering off track already because you talked about the sustainability and greenwashing.
• 1:46
  Jen LaForge: Not Adidas' challenge, but have you seen brands that were caught on the greenwashing side?
• 1:53
  Jen LaForge: Did any of them recover, or what does recovery from kind of cheating on those specs look like?
• 1:59
  Lesley Hawkins: So whether it's sustainability and and greenwashing, you know, it's not for me to call out brands, but the challenge with consumers now is because they're less forgiving, is once you lose them, it takes that much longer to get them back.
• 2:16
  Lesley Hawkins: If you look at, you know, 15 years ago, there was brands that had product issues.
• 2:22
  Lesley Hawkins: And it became front page news and tights or see-through or whatever it may be.
• 2:28
  Lesley Hawkins: But consumers would move on, right?
• 2:30
  Lesley Hawkins: They were like, okay, we don't particularly like it.
• 2:32
  Lesley Hawkins: We're maybe going to, you know, chastise you for a short amount of time, but then we move on, we're still super loyal.
• 2:38
  Lesley Hawkins: In today's day and age, now this consumer is saying, actually, we're we're not forgiving you, and it's going to take us a really, really long time to come back if we come back, because now there's so many more options, and there's other brands with similar values that they can, you know, support and share their hard-earned dollars with.
• 3:00
  Jen LaForge: We've really moved away from that transactional relationship, and it's more emotional now.
• 3:06
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 3:07
  Jen LaForge: How important is the emotional relationship with customers today?
• 3:12
  Lesley Hawkins: So transaction, I think, is really easy to replicate, right?
• 3:18
  Lesley Hawkins: You can attract somebody by price, promotions, loyalty programs, I get points, whatever it is.
• 3:26
  Lesley Hawkins: It's really hard to replicate the emotional connection.
• 3:30
  Lesley Hawkins: And so that's, I think, the brands that are doing that really well are the ones that are winning consumers not just their wallet, but their long-term value.
• 3:42
  Lesley Hawkins: It comes down to they feel like they belong, they're part of a community.
• 3:47
  Lesley Hawkins: For a brand like Adidas, they feel like they're on the inside, right?
• 3:51
  Lesley Hawkins: They're inside the ropes, they get limited edition access to events, to collaborations.
• 3:58
  Lesley Hawkins: That is truly community, and to me, that's more of an emotional connection than a transaction.
• 4:05
  Lesley Hawkins: Transactions come and go.
• 4:07
  Jen LaForge: 100%.
• 4:07
  Jen LaForge: So you it's not 100% on the emotional side yet, though.
• 4:11
  Jen LaForge: Definitely moving in that direction.
• 4:12
  Jen LaForge: Correct.
• 4:13
  Jen LaForge: So, what do you think separates uh your customers that buy and your customers that belong?
• 4:19
  Lesley Hawkins: A customer that buys is looking at one part of the experience.
• 4:25
  Lesley Hawkins: Generally, they're looking at like, do you have the product that I want at the price I want?
• 4:30
  Lesley Hawkins: And they're looking at your product and what you offer as a commodity.
• 4:35
  Lesley Hawkins: The difference between the consumer that belongs is yes, they might be buying product, but it means more to them.
• 4:44
  Lesley Hawkins: It reflects their values.
• 4:46
  Lesley Hawkins: They feel like they're part of the story, they're part of the brand, and that they have a connection and an investment, right?
• 4:54
  Lesley Hawkins: So they're not only investing their dollars, but they're investing their time.
• 4:58
  Lesley Hawkins: They're joining run clubs, they're being part of this community and they're helping to perpetuate it.
• 5:05
  Lesley Hawkins: Now, the way to really draw in a consumer to make sure that they belong is to make it less transactional.
• 5:14
  Lesley Hawkins: As odd as that sounds to say for retail, because ultimately our job is to sell product or sell of service, but really to draw them in, it starts with being crystal clear on what are your brand values, what do you stand for, and making sure that everything you do throughout your entire consumer journey reflects those values.
• 5:39
  Lesley Hawkins: Once you're super consistent with that, I think that's where consumers feel like they can belong, they can kind of take ownership and invest in the brand.
• 5:48
  Jen LaForge: So we're talking a lot about leaning heavily onto the value side and that communication, the clarity.
• 5:54
  Jen LaForge: What if your competitive set are all competing with the same values?
• 6:01
  Jen LaForge: I mean, how do you distinguish where you belong when every competitor within the vertical or the category you're shopping in is all competing around the same value set.
• 6:12
  Jen LaForge: Is there a way to distinguish a brand in that regard?
• 6:16
  Lesley Hawkins: I would challenge the idea that everybody in the competitive set have got similar values.
• 6:21
  Lesley Hawkins: I think what what's important to one, if I look at the performance athletic space, for example, what Adidas stands for and what Nike stands for are very different.
• 6:32
  Lesley Hawkins: How they transact with athletes is very different.
• 6:36
  Lesley Hawkins: How they invest in marketing is very different.
• 6:38
  Lesley Hawkins: Yes, we're in the same space and direct competitors, but I don't see a Nike consumer and an Adidas consumer the same.
• 6:49
  Lesley Hawkins: I don't think they cross over very much.
• 6:52
  Lesley Hawkins: People tend to be in that space really loyal to one or the other.
• 6:56
  Lesley Hawkins: And it's either they're loyal because of the brand itself or they're loyal because of the athletes, right?
• 7:01
  Lesley Hawkins: If you're a Michael Jordan fan, you're a Michael Jordan fan, and that's going to be embedded in everything that you do, and you will support that brand no matter what.
• 7:10
  Lesley Hawkins: But I I don't think that they necessarily do share the same values within a competitive set.
• 7:16
  Lesley Hawkins: Good enough.
• 7:17
  Jen LaForge: And I like being challenged, so thank you.
• 7:18
  Jen LaForge: I wouldn't have thought uh you know, specifically not particularly on the shoe side, would I I've necessarily seen the value systems there.
• 7:26
  Jen LaForge: Um but what you're talking about leads us into fandom, and I know we're both very excited to talk about fandom.
• 7:32
  Jen LaForge: Um I'm sure you're aware, but Rack Chin has been in a partnership with the Golden State Warriors since 2017.
• 7:38
  Jen LaForge: Um we just renewed our partnership with them to include the Valcry's, so now participating in women's sports.
• 7:43
  Jen LaForge: Excellent.
• 7:44
  Jen LaForge: Congratulations.
• 7:45
  Jen LaForge: Thank you.
• 7:46
  Jen LaForge: But it's different.
• 7:47
  Jen LaForge: Uh this new partnership renewal is less about the the badge on the jersey and more about impact to communities and giving back, particularly in the Bay Area.
• 7:59
  Jen LaForge: So the strategies changed.
• 8:01
  Jen LaForge: Talk a little bit about, you know, Adidas within that space have done a lot with the community, a lot with impact.
• 8:07
  Jen LaForge: How does that create fandom and why is that fandom important?
• 8:12
  Lesley Hawkins: I was one step removed from signing all of those partnerships.
• 8:17
  Lesley Hawkins: But the importance of those partnerships, yes, it's to serve product to the fans, but it's so much more.
• 8:25
  Lesley Hawkins: A lot of these teams are doing a lot with their local community, are helping underserved communities.
• 8:32
  Lesley Hawkins: If we look here in Toronto, the Toronto Raptors, for example, are doing a lot of work within the community to try and help those underserved.
• 8:41
  Lesley Hawkins: They're opening up new basketball courts, they're helping to support as much as they can to bring sport to those that maybe can't afford it.
• 8:49
  Lesley Hawkins: And so being partnered with a brand like the Toronto Raptors is just an extension of one of the values for Adidas of making sure that we are not just selling jerseys.
• 9:05
  Lesley Hawkins: Yes, that's a byproduct of it, but it's so much more.
• 9:08
  Lesley Hawkins: How can we, with our brand and the Raptors brand, actually work together to help those underserved communities?
• 9:15
  Lesley Hawkins: How can we do more to help them?
• 9:20
  Lesley Hawkins: And I'm always a big fan of two heads are always better than one.
• 9:24
  Lesley Hawkins: And that has proven to be really successful.
• 9:28
  Lesley Hawkins: It's been a great partnership with MLSE.
• 9:31
  Lesley Hawkins: And while those consumers may not necessarily be brand fans today or able to buy jerseys or to attend basketball games or hockey games, whatever it may be, the fact is that there's a connection.
• 9:47
  Lesley Hawkins: We've created that emotional connection with a brand who's come into their community and helped them, helped them with something that they weren't able to have before.
• 9:56
  Lesley Hawkins: And that matters in the long-term, you know, value of that fan.
• 10:01
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, we talked a little bit earlier before we sat down about that fandom being the top of your funnels, top of the funnel, and that you're really creating a much longer pipeline where that customer might not be transacting or buying from you for another 10 years.
• 10:17
  Jen LaForge: Correct.
• 10:18
  Jen LaForge: And do you you know the longevity of a brand, how important is thinking about that 10, 20 year build to a brand like Adidas?
• 10:27
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 10:27
  Jen LaForge: It's been around for forever.
• 10:29
  Lesley Hawkins: Forever.
• 10:29
  Lesley Hawkins: The brands I think that are successful are the ones that look at the long-term value of that fan.
• 10:38
  Lesley Hawkins: And yes, there's a monetization of that, but it's so much more.
• 10:43
  Lesley Hawkins: If there's brands that are coming in and hoping that they're going to sign a team or sign an athlete, sell a lot of product, make a lot of money in a short amount of time, there's, you know, Harvard Business Reviews on those brands who have come and gone.
• 10:57
  Lesley Hawkins: But those that are really around for the long term are those that understand it's a long game, right?
• 11:03
  Lesley Hawkins: And it it's so much more than just I'm following this player today.
• 11:08
  Lesley Hawkins: It's I'm going to follow this player for their entire career.
• 11:12
  Lesley Hawkins: And then, oh, if they're a part of the front of office, okay, I'm still going to be a fan of that, of that athlete, of that team, because of what they've done in my community for me.
• 11:22
  Lesley Hawkins: I align with their values.
• 11:24
  Lesley Hawkins: And so it's not a short-term play.
• 11:26
  Lesley Hawkins: And I think in any part of brand building, it has to be viewed as a long-term game, anyhow.
• 11:32
  Jen LaForge: So I'm going to connect some dots so far in the conversation with the fandom and the community and values with the right sports partnership or the the right sports player that people you know are going to follow.
• 11:48
  Jen LaForge: The values of that individual that the brand chooses to work with has to tie very closely to the the values of the brand.
• 11:55
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 11:56
  Jen LaForge: But some brands have gotten that that very wrong.
• 11:58
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 11:59
  Jen LaForge: And so it's a lot of money to have a misalignment on values and destroy what you're trying to achieve.
• 12:04
  Jen LaForge: Again, we're not going to call other brands out, but have you seen this happen and what does that look like from a loyalty perspective?
• 12:11
  Jen LaForge: Do those customers leave when that value mismatches, and particularly if they hit the news for breaking on those values?
• 12:19
  Jen LaForge: What happens to the customers in the fallout?
• 12:22
  Lesley Hawkins: I can't think of a brand who hasn't missed out.
• 12:25
  Lesley Hawkins: I think it's so easy when you take your brand, a you know, a national brand, a global brand, and align it with an individual, we're all flawed, right?
• 12:38
  Lesley Hawkins: We all have our challenges.
• 12:39
  Lesley Hawkins: And so the key isn't necessarily that the consumer goes away.
• 12:46
  Lesley Hawkins: It comes back to what does the brand do immediately?
• 12:50
  Lesley Hawkins: So do they cut ties with the athlete?
• 12:53
  Lesley Hawkins: Do they denounce what has happened?
• 12:56
  Lesley Hawkins: Do they completely pivot?
• 12:59
  Lesley Hawkins: Or do they stay silent?
• 13:01
  Lesley Hawkins: And so it's less about what the athlete or the spokesperson does.
• 13:06
  Lesley Hawkins: It's more about the brand's reaction.
• 13:10
  Lesley Hawkins: So when things don't go quite as planned, is really paramount.
• 13:17
  Lesley Hawkins: The brand reacts in a way that is fully aligned with their values.
• 13:22
  Lesley Hawkins: And it might mean that you walk away from a lot of business, that you might walk away from an athlete or a sports organization or an influencer, whoever it is.
• 13:32
  Lesley Hawkins: But the moment it becomes more about the athlete and the spokesperson and less about the brand is the moment you've lost the plot.
• 13:40
  Lesley Hawkins: And so there's going to be missteps.
• 13:43
  Lesley Hawkins: It just happens everywhere.
• 13:46
  Lesley Hawkins: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Lesley Hawkins: It's about what do you do?
• 13:49
  Lesley Hawkins: And consumers will forgive you if you take the right stance.
• 13:54
  Lesley Hawkins: Right.
• 13:55
  Jen LaForge: I mean it's a big risk.
• 13:56
  Jen LaForge: You're partnering with a human being.
• 13:57
  Jen LaForge: Correct.
• 13:58
  Jen LaForge: And uh as as their stardom grows, that's where the risk starts to evolve.
• 14:03
  Jen LaForge: Um and so uh I I I love that you started with accountability at the top to say we're all going to misstep here.
• 14:10
  Jen LaForge: Yeah because it's it's inevitable.
• 14:11
  Jen LaForge: So it is.
• 14:12
  Jen LaForge: It speaks a lot to your character and what you're bringing to Adidas.
• 14:15
  Jen LaForge: So thank you.
• 14:17
  Jen LaForge: Um the you know, in my mind, you've got all these customers at risk because of a misstep there.
• 14:22
  Jen LaForge: Um you're addressing it, but there's there's still a bucket of customers you're not going to get back.
• 14:27
  Jen LaForge: And that leads me to think that some brands might lean in with very heavy discounts to try and get that purchase.
• 14:33
  Lesley Hawkins: Yes.
• 14:34
  Jen LaForge: So talk a little bit about how discounts come into the picture there and perhaps why, if it doesn't work, which I have a feeling it doesn't work, um, what really distinguishes you know the difference between that fandom and discounts?
• 14:48
  Lesley Hawkins: Right.
• 14:49
  Lesley Hawkins: The discount is a moment in time.
• 14:52
  Jen LaForge: Right.
• 14:53
  Lesley Hawkins: And it might get you that sale, but it doesn't buy you any loyalty with that consumer.
• 15:00
  Lesley Hawkins: And I am not a fan of discounts, to be honest.
• 15:04
  Lesley Hawkins: If you want to get creative with promotions, but if you want to get creative with promotions, right?
• 15:13
  Lesley Hawkins: It's BOGO, it's it's something different, it's buy more, save more, special size sales that we would do in footwear, for example.
• 15:21
  Lesley Hawkins: That's all good.
• 15:22
  Lesley Hawkins: But I find the moment that a brand starts going down the discount route, it becomes a race to the bottom because everybody can replicate that.
• 15:31
  Lesley Hawkins: Everyone can replicate a transaction.
• 15:34
  Lesley Hawkins: What brands can't replicate is that sense of belonging and that fandom.
• 15:39
  Lesley Hawkins: And fandom shows up in community, it shows up in uh them feeling like they see themselves, like they're on the inside of the ropes.
• 15:50
  Lesley Hawkins: So I'll give you an example of true fandom and a brand getting it right.
• 15:55
  Lesley Hawkins: Now, of course, I'm super biased having worked at Adidas for so long.
• 16:00
  Lesley Hawkins: But at the 2026 World Cup, there was an activation by Adidas at Stacked Market in Toronto.
• 16:09
  Lesley Hawkins: And yes, there was a retail component to it on the outside of the installation, but it was where all the watch parties happened.
• 16:19
  Lesley Hawkins: There was food trucks, there was drinks, there was seating, there was umbrellas.
• 16:23
  Lesley Hawkins: And more than anything, it was just soccer fans from all nations, or football fans, I should say, coming together to watch and celebrate the beautiful game that football soccer is.
• 16:36
  Lesley Hawkins: And I went down with uh my husband, we are both Scots, we were watching the Scotland Morocco game.
• 16:43
  Lesley Hawkins: My husband was in his full kilt, I had the full Scottish flag, and we spent the game cheering with two gentlemen from Norway.
• 16:53
  Lesley Hawkins: There was no conversation about anything else other than sports and fan and brand.
• 16:59
  Lesley Hawkins: And they will leave, and their comments again and again and again, not knowing any brand that I was affiliated with, was this is a great experience.
• 17:10
  Lesley Hawkins: I love the brand for what they're doing.
• 17:12
  Lesley Hawkins: Now, that will stay.
• 17:15
  Lesley Hawkins: That to me is fandom.
• 17:17
  Lesley Hawkins: It's bringing people together in community at a moment in time to celebrate something.
• 17:23
  Lesley Hawkins: And that creates, I think, long-term brand association.
• 17:28
  Jen LaForge: I love that.
• 17:28
  Jen LaForge: Yeah.
• 17:29
  Jen LaForge: You made me think about ROI because it's very hard to measure what that beautiful experience of the World Cup was and how it translates to the return.
• 17:39
  Jen LaForge: And I have a soft spot for marketers because CEOs really want that return and they want results, and marketers, some things are hard to measure.
• 17:47
  Jen LaForge: Very.
• 17:47
  Jen LaForge: How how does a brand go about measuring the experience of the World Cup?
• 17:52
  Jen LaForge: And the that's mega dollars.
• 17:54
  Jen LaForge: It's mega dollars.
• 17:54
  Jen LaForge: That were put into that.
• 17:55
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 17:56
  Jen LaForge: How do you know it worked?
• 17:57
  Lesley Hawkins: So you can't put a metric against it per se.
• 18:00
  Lesley Hawkins: And that is, as a former marketer, I get it, right?
• 18:04
  Lesley Hawkins: It's really, really hard to say if I invest this million dollars, I'm going to generate sales of tenfold.
• 18:10
  Lesley Hawkins: And yes, there's jersey sales and everything, but it's the the long-term average value of that consumer that you need to start looking at.
• 18:21
  Lesley Hawkins: Now, in something like that, the event that was at the World Cup celebrating those watch parties, that's creating community.
• 18:31
  Lesley Hawkins: And that you cannot build a metric around.
• 18:34
  Lesley Hawkins: You can see how many people came through the gate, how many people bought merchandise, but what you're really trying to do is make sure that your brand is embedded in the culture of when people think of soccer, football, they think of Adidas.
• 18:48
  Lesley Hawkins: They think of the experience they had, they think about the fact that it was free to get in and that people were coming back for every single game and watching with their friends, with their family, with complete strangers.
• 19:03
  Lesley Hawkins: That you can't build a metric around, but it will pay itself in dividends down the road with people uh associating you with that experience.
• 19:14
  Lesley Hawkins: And as long as it's a positive experience, which in this case it was, that's where the real juice is.
• 19:20
  Jen LaForge: I think that um helps those who are not in the space marketing world or working for for sports or or in the category retail for sports.
• 19:29
  Jen LaForge: There's always a question that's a lot of money that these brands are putting towards partnerships with sports affiliations and athletes and participating at the World Cup.
• 19:39
  Jen LaForge: Everyone knows who Adidas is.
• 19:41
  Jen LaForge: Everyone in the world.
• 19:43
  Jen LaForge: So why does Adidas have to put all that money out for this brand awareness and for these experiences?
• 19:49
  Jen LaForge: I think you explained that in a way, but for me before really understanding the space, I always wondered that.
• 19:56
  Jen LaForge: So for the average Joe watching, why do brands like Adidas that aren't known globally need to be dumping millions of dollars into these things?
• 20:07
  Lesley Hawkins: So you're right, people are aware of the brand.
• 20:10
  Lesley Hawkins: It's less about brand awareness and it's more about building community.
• 20:15
  Lesley Hawkins: And I am saying it again and again and again because it's a different way of looking at how you spend your marketing dollars, how you spend your dollars.
• 20:25
  Lesley Hawkins: Being there to support the athletes, to support the team, to support the sports organizations is important because it's literally part of the DNA of the brand.
• 20:38
  Lesley Hawkins: Right?
• 20:38
  Lesley Hawkins: So Adidas started in footwear, started in football, soccer.
• 20:43
  Lesley Hawkins: And so it's important to keep that affiliation alive.
• 20:47
  Lesley Hawkins: Just because everybody knows about your brand doesn't mean that, well, my job's done.
• 20:53
  Lesley Hawkins: I don't need to support it anymore.
• 20:55
  Lesley Hawkins: I think it's important that you stay fully embedded in the sports and the athletes and the organizations that are part of your core DNA.
• 21:04
  Lesley Hawkins: Now, you take a big global brand like Adidas that is involved in a lot of sports worldwide.
• 21:13
  Lesley Hawkins: And so it has it was always a challenge, particularly from a retailer, of trying to make sure that each sport had its moment within retail store.
• 21:24
  Lesley Hawkins: And that becomes super challenging, right?
• 21:26
  Lesley Hawkins: When when it's Wimbledon or F1, or you're trying to make sure that each sport has got its moment, but it it's more challenging because the brand exists across so many different sports and platforms.
• 21:39
  Jen LaForge: It's huge.
• 21:39
  Jen LaForge: And and majority of the world is a fan of a sport or some sports in some regards.
• 21:45
  Jen LaForge: So you're capturing a lot of potential customers and carrying them along on your journey.
• 21:50
  Jen LaForge: But there are some who are perhaps sports agnostic, um, and this type of marketing doesn't work on them.
• 21:57
  Jen LaForge: So there's another subset of customers and that that I'm guessing uh you're gonna lean towards my world, loyalty, deals, uh, value.
• 22:13
  Jen LaForge: What role does affiliates and publishers like Rackton with cashback, what role does that industry play to Adidas?
• 22:24
  Jen LaForge: Yeah, so sports-heavy.
• 22:26
  Lesley Hawkins: Right.
• 22:27
  Lesley Hawkins: So big global brands don't just live in one specific space.
• 22:33
  Lesley Hawkins: So where Adidas has really become very strong is in the blend of sport and culture.
• 22:43
  Lesley Hawkins: And so the big growth for Adidas has come on the culture and identity side, right?
• 22:48
  Lesley Hawkins: Through a lot of the retro products that have come out, the Adidas Originals line.
• 22:54
  Lesley Hawkins: Everyone was wearing sambas for the last few years.
• 22:58
  Lesley Hawkins: And so it's not just an athletic company, it's so much more than that.
• 23:03
  Lesley Hawkins: I think where it's important in these kinds of partnerships is making sure that you're getting exposure beyond just the fan, beyond just the sport, and opening it up to consumers that maybe you're not top of mind.
• 23:20
  Lesley Hawkins: Maybe you're not in the consideration set.
• 23:23
  Lesley Hawkins: And so partnerships like this would offer that opportunity.
• 23:27
  Lesley Hawkins: Right.
• 23:27
  Lesley Hawkins: To reach people like me.
• 23:29
  Lesley Hawkins: Yeah.
• 23:29
  Lesley Hawkins: I still want that discount.
• 23:30
  Lesley Hawkins: Yes, and although off camera, we're going to talk about you not being a sports fan, but that's okay.
• 23:36
  Jen LaForge: I said sports agnostic.
• 23:37
  Jen LaForge: So I mean, you put me in a basketball game, I'm a basketball fan.
• 23:41
  Jen LaForge: You put me in a baseball, I'm a baseball fan.
• 23:43
  Jen LaForge: But am I tracking any teams or loyal to any particular one?
• 23:49
  Jen LaForge: I like the atmosphere and the cold beer and yes.
• 23:53
  Jen LaForge: Um and the fun of the game.
• 23:55
  Jen LaForge: The fun of the game.
• 23:56
  Jen LaForge: So so agnostic, sports agnostic.
• 23:59
  Jen LaForge: I got myself in trouble here.
• 24:02
  Jen LaForge: I love football.
• 24:04
  Jen LaForge: Yes, there you go.
• 24:05
  Jen LaForge: This is very dangerous to not say that today.
• 24:08
  Jen LaForge: We're gonna go back to the the loyalty space there.
• 24:11
  Jen LaForge: Um, so what I'm thinking about between individuals that are more like me and those big fandom uh customers, is their definition of loyalty different, or would you describe their loyalty different?
• 24:24
  Lesley Hawkins: The word loyalty is a bit challenging, I think, because it's all encompassing.
• 24:28
  Lesley Hawkins: There's those that their loyalty is tied into how many points can I get and what are my rewards for that?
• 24:37
  Lesley Hawkins: For which there are brands and there's positioning, and that's important, but there's a different, like real fandom, real loyalty means that you're part of their everyday life, that they are truly believe in the brand, in the values, in everything that we've already spoken about.
• 24:56
  Lesley Hawkins: And that loyalty is more of a relationship, it's more a sense of belonging, it's embedded in their community, and that loyalty is more long-term.
• 25:11
  Lesley Hawkins: My concern with the transactional is it's a moment in time, and there's a time and space for that, particularly when the economy is not great.
• 25:23
  Lesley Hawkins: But trying to take those who are just points collectors and move them into no, I actually firmly believe in this brand and I'm going to buy this band because of what they stand for and how I feel wearing the product, and because they see me, they recognize me, and they're doing good in my community, that's a totally different conversation.
• 25:46
  Jen LaForge: It feels like we're circling back to the top of the conversation where we addressed the uh the values, your personal values and the values of the company can now outweigh the discount.
• 25:59
  Jen LaForge: Where is it safe to say 10 years ago that wasn't the case?
• 26:02
  Jen LaForge: A discount rolled king?
• 26:05
  Lesley Hawkins: Was it different?
• 26:07
  Lesley Hawkins: And I think it sort of flows a bit with the economy, right?
• 26:10
  Lesley Hawkins: So coming out of 2008, definitely discounts were king.
• 26:17
  Lesley Hawkins: But now it's so much more than that.
• 26:20
  Lesley Hawkins: And I think the next generation, the Gen Zs, the Gen Alphas, they're demanding more of their brand and they're spending their money.
• 26:27
  Lesley Hawkins: And yes, they're not the biggest spenders yet, they're about to be.
• 26:31
  Lesley Hawkins: And so, because of that, I think over the last 10 years, that has changed significantly of how loyalty is being perceived and how brands are focusing on loyalty in a different way.
• 26:44
  Lesley Hawkins: Yes, there's point, and yes, you want to reward them for buying more product, but it's so much more than that.
• 26:52
  Lesley Hawkins: Can you bring them inside the ropes?
• 26:55
  Lesley Hawkins: Can they feel like their voice matters, that they're influencing the direction of the brand?
• 27:00
  Lesley Hawkins: Can you give them experiences that other people can't?
• 27:05
  Lesley Hawkins: And that's where, if we circle back to the Golden State Warriors as an example on that partnership, is there opportunities for your fans, your loyal customers, to now have behind the ropes access that they couldn't necessarily have before if they weren't loyal.
• 27:26
  Jen LaForge: Right.
• 27:26
  Jen LaForge: That that speaks very well to a couple of episodes we've done where really talking about loyalty.
• 27:31
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 27:32
  Jen LaForge: Um, as it pertains to what does value mean to you?
• 27:35
  Jen LaForge: And value is different to anyone.
• 27:37
  Jen LaForge: That access, that exclusivity is value to a lot of people.
• 27:41
  Jen LaForge: So I love that.
• 27:42
  Jen LaForge: Thank you.
• 27:42
  Jen LaForge: We were talking a little bit earlier too about uh phone and phone cameras, yes.
• 27:47
  Jen LaForge: But but it got me thinking about you know, brands like Adidas, um, we talked about your global, you spend a ton of marketing dollars on um that funnel with the funnel with the funnel.
• 28:01
  Jen LaForge: But when it comes to those customers, um how important is the product?
• 28:06
  Jen LaForge: And this is where the camera goes in because every new phone version has a better camera or a better this, and so people, even if they don't need a new phone, are gonna buy that new phone because of the perceived improvements.
• 28:18
  Jen LaForge: When it comes to shoes, how valuable is that product changeup and new products and and what has to be different to get them to buy another pair sooner than they might need?
• 28:29
  Lesley Hawkins: In the apparel footwear space, just like in the phone space, innovation is key, right?
• 28:35
  Lesley Hawkins: And so people often think, yeah, but a shoe is a shoe is a shoe, or a shirt is a shirt.
• 28:40
  Lesley Hawkins: Uh, it's so much more than that.
• 28:42
  Lesley Hawkins: And so there is a lot of money and time and resources put against what is the latest technology, what benefits are consumers looking for?
• 28:53
  Lesley Hawkins: And that's where it circles back a little bit to the loyalty, is listening to those loyal consumers.
• 28:58
  Lesley Hawkins: What do you actually want?
• 29:00
  Lesley Hawkins: What's important to you?
• 29:01
  Lesley Hawkins: If you're a runner, if you're uh, you know, training for a marathon, what's important to you is very different from somebody like me who's I'm I'm not running, I'm jogging.
• 29:13
  Lesley Hawkins: Very, very different world.
• 29:15
  Lesley Hawkins: And so the technology that I'm looking for is very different from a marathoner.
• 29:19
  Lesley Hawkins: And so it's making sure that you're really bringing in the latest, not only in materials, but in you know, underfoot cushioning, and you're listening to those consumers to make sure that your product is exactly what they want, and then some, right?
• 29:40
  Lesley Hawkins: There's technologies that are coming out that are brand new that consumers don't necessarily know.
• 29:45
  Lesley Hawkins: But there's things like embedding sustainability in products as well.
• 29:50
  Lesley Hawkins: So, how do you create a shoe that is fully circular in that as it comes to life when it goes into landfill that it actually degrades and so now becomes part of the soil and it's not a burden on the environment.
• 30:08
  Lesley Hawkins: So all of those technologies are also part of the conversation of and that I think it's all part of building the brand.
• 30:18
  Jen LaForge: I feel like you're making me a major Adidas fan for this conversation, uh, which admittedly they're not my top shoe brand.
• 30:26
  Jen LaForge: Um, but what you just said really resonated for me.
• 30:29
  Jen LaForge: I'm gonna side quest here.
• 30:30
  Jen LaForge: I would have thought a shoe is a shoe is a shoe for the most part.
• 30:34
  Jen LaForge: I recently just bought uh a pair of shoes specific to HyRocks.
• 30:38
  Jen LaForge: Okay.
• 30:39
  Jen LaForge: And I've worn them twice.
• 30:40
  Jen LaForge: I'm trying to break them in.
• 30:41
  Jen LaForge: This entire conversation, I felt nothing but my caps.
• 30:45
  Jen LaForge: Yes, okay.
• 30:46
  Jen LaForge: They are a very different shoe and they are built with high innovation and purpose.
• 30:51
  Jen LaForge: And so that resonated more to me because I got to experience the innovation within a shoe that hasn't happened before.
• 30:58
  Jen LaForge: Correct.
• 30:58
  Jen LaForge: But admittedly, I'm gonna be looking at Adidas for my next pair.
• 31:03
  Jen LaForge: So thank you.
• 31:03
  Jen LaForge: You are another funnel that you're creating.
• 31:06
  Jen LaForge: Okay, so I wanna keep tying it back again within our space to loyalty.
• 31:11
  Jen LaForge: So I'm gonna ask you um when it comes to uh stack or skip, yes.
• 31:17
  Jen LaForge: Would you think that there is value?
• 31:19
  Jen LaForge: Should brands that don't have partnerships be leaning in here to drive loyalty, or should they skip that and move more towards those transactional points, loyalties?
• 31:33
  Jen LaForge: And is that dependent on the size of the marketing budget?
• 31:37
  Lesley Hawkins: I would say you stack based on loyalty being emotional.
• 31:43
  Lesley Hawkins: If loyalty is purely transactional, I would skip it.
• 31:47
  Lesley Hawkins: Okay.
• 31:48
  Lesley Hawkins: Love that.
• 31:48
  Lesley Hawkins: You are not a big fan of that high transaction.
• 31:51
  Lesley Hawkins: I'm not.
• 31:51
  Lesley Hawkins: I like that.
• 31:52
  Lesley Hawkins: Because it's a it's a moment in time.
• 31:55
  Lesley Hawkins: And I think the moment you focus your loyalty on I'm going to discount my way or promo my way purely into gaining that consumer, that means that they they could get a better deal tomorrow.
• 32:10
  Lesley Hawkins: Right.
• 32:11
  Lesley Hawkins: Which means they're not actually loyal to your brand.
• 32:14
  Lesley Hawkins: And nor are you loyal to them.
• 32:18
  Lesley Hawkins: Right.
• 32:18
  Lesley Hawkins: Right?
• 32:19
  Lesley Hawkins: It's a two-way street.
• 32:20
  Lesley Hawkins: If it's truly an emotional loyalty and you're really tied in with the brand, then it's it's both ways, right?
• 32:27
  Lesley Hawkins: The consumers are holding the brand accountable, and the brand is doing everything they can to keep their values true with that consumer.
• 32:35
  Lesley Hawkins: So it works both ways.
• 32:36
  Jen LaForge: Well, you just said gave me an immense sense of pride because our members at Rackton are loyal to Rakton and Cashback first before the brand loyalty.
• 32:45
  Jen LaForge: So seeing the strength at the loyalty with uh with brands, yes, um, knowing that our customers are so loyal to to Rakton and the cashback, not discounting loyalty to the brands at all, but some will will switch a brand over for the better cash back or the better offer and the better deal.
• 33:03
  Jen LaForge: It just speaks uh, I think, to the value that we're bringing.
• 33:06
  Jen LaForge: So thank you for that.
• 33:07
  Jen LaForge: Thank you for bringing me into the Adidas family, because I have a feeling I have a new pair of shoes coming.
• 33:13
  Jen LaForge: Fantastic.
• 33:13
  Jen LaForge: Very quickly.
• 33:14
  Jen LaForge: Do you have any friends and family?
• 33:16
  Jen LaForge: Ask your for a friend.
• 33:19
  Jen LaForge: Actually, well, it's my last question.
• 33:22
  Jen LaForge: I've been meaning to ask it um because it's been woven throughout this conversation in some ways, and that is referral friend, referral programs.
• 33:29
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 33:29
  Jen LaForge: Um, and and the last question, taking everything we've learned about the emotional side, the value side, that alignment.
• 33:37
  Jen LaForge: When it comes to a referral friend, generally our friends have similar values to us.
• 33:43
  Jen LaForge: Do they automatically extend, or is there something deeper there that needs to be considered in a referral program when it's so emotional based?
• 33:53
  Lesley Hawkins: The best referral programs are those that are from friends, right?
• 34:00
  Lesley Hawkins: And you can buy all the advertising in the world, but particularly Gen Z, they are fully hooked in to I will listen to my friends, I will actually read reviews online, and I will believe strangers before I believe the brand, which is so crazy.
• 34:19
  Lesley Hawkins: But I think referral programs have to be a cornerstone of the loyalty program because people want human connection, they want to be part of something.
• 34:32
  Lesley Hawkins: And so if you're part of a community and you believe in the community and you share their values and you've had this sense of belonging, you're gonna want to bring in the rest of your friends and family into that.
• 34:45
  Lesley Hawkins: And so those those are the best referral programs you could have.
• 34:49
  Jen LaForge: You're saying to me that those fans that you worked hard to create that fandom are essentially your influencers in real life.
• 34:56
  Jen LaForge: Absolutely.
• 34:57
  Jen LaForge: They're your brand ambassadors for life.
• 34:59
  Jen LaForge: I love that.
• 35:00
  Jen LaForge: I love that.
• 35:00
  Jen LaForge: There's so much value.
• 35:01
  Jen LaForge: Just I just gonna need a measurement on that tomorrow.
• 35:03
  Jen LaForge: Yes.
• 35:04
  Lesley Hawkins: I'll get right back to you.
• 35:06
  Jen LaForge: Perfect.
• 35:07
  Jen LaForge: Well, this has been a great conversation, a little bit different than what we normally talk about, but again, I just love how we we we touched on value as it means so much to so many different people.
• 35:17
  Jen LaForge: We talked about value within the sports, but I haven't asked you before you leave, how do you define value in your personal life?
• 35:25
  Jen LaForge: What is value to you?
• 35:27
  Lesley Hawkins: Oh, that's a good question.
• 35:28
  Lesley Hawkins: Value is consistency, trust, and I'd say freedom.
• 35:36
  Lesley Hawkins: I don't know.
• 35:38
  Jen LaForge: I love I love that we get a different answer.
• 35:40
  Jen LaForge: Everyone we ask, we get a different answer.
• 35:42
  Jen LaForge: I'd love that.
• 35:43
  Jen LaForge: Well, thank you so much for coming in.
• 35:45
  Jen LaForge: Let's go shopping.
• 35:46
  Jen LaForge: Okay, I'm in.
• 35:47
  Jen LaForge: Let's go.
• 35:48
  Jen LaForge: No problem at all.
• 35:49
  Jen LaForge: And that's it for this episode of Snacked.
• 35:51
  Jen LaForge: If you found this useful, follow along as we interview leaders shaping the future of retail and learn how value really works behind the scenes.
• 35:59
  Jen LaForge: And if there's a topic you want us to unpack, I'd love to hear from you.
• 36:02
  Jen LaForge: See you next time.