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Sara Zelkovic on Building Patient-Centric Communications Strategies · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Sarah Zelkovic. Sarah is a communications leader with more than a decade of experience supporting life sciences and biotech organizations through critical growth milestones. As associate director of research and development communications at Estella's Pharma, she leads global scientific communication strategy and drives engagement across the company's gene and cell therapy portfolios. You're listening to Expertly Said, a podcast on the art and impact of communication. I'm Kristen Sweeney, founder and CEO of Every Little Word. Sara: . Kristen Sweeney: Previously, Sarah served as director of communications and investor relations at Celiad Oncology and has held leadership roles at LifeSci Communications and Barry & Company Public Relations. Outside of her professional work, Sarah is an active volunteer with the ASPCA where she's contributed more than 1,000 hours of service, volunteering and fostering kittens from their kitten nursery. She's also only one continent away from hitting her bucket list of visiting all seven continents. Sarah, welcome to the show. Sara: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Kristen. Kristen Sweeney: really excited to have you here. Normally I like to kick off this conversation with a question about your origin story, but my first question for you is actually, when are you going to Antarctica? If that is in fact the last continent. Wow. Sara: So that is not the last continent. Actually, the last continent is Australia. So we just did Antarctica a few months ago in January. So did not save that one for last. ⁓ But Australia is also hard to get to. So we really kept both of them just for like the very last ones. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. That's it for this episode of Expertly Said. We are produced by Every Little Word, a boutique It sure is. My in-laws were in Australia a couple of years ago and they did Australia and New Zealand and what was the most surprising to us because I guess we just didn't have a very good sense of geography was every time they called us they were in a different time zone. I was like right it's much much bigger than I think it is over there and so it's the equivalent of you know traveling across ⁓ content and communications agency. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Subscribe, share the episode with a colleague, or leave us a review. If you want to connect with me directly, please do. You can find me on LinkedIn, just search Kristen Sweeney. Thanks for listening. Talk soon. not a state or a single state, but a really big area. Tell me a little bit about your trip to Antarctica. How does one go there right now? Sara: Right. ⁓ So you can only go on a ship, essentially, like there's no hotels or anything, people definitely ask me that, and the only people who live there are on research centers. So if you go on a cruise ship that has less than 200 people, you can do actual like excursions and landings to go onto the continent itself. So that was definitely something that we prioritized. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Yes. Sara: and you go all the way down to the southernmost tip of Argentina and that's where you get the ship. So it's two days of the Drake Passage, which if you Google it, it looks terrifying and I took so much anti-nausea medication just in case, but we ended up not needing it. Thank God. was more Drake Lake, they said. people, I mean, people still got sick, but I was worried about that. So you can't escape the ship. if you're not feeling well, you're on there for two weeks. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Yeah. Sara: ⁓ But that's how you get there and how you stay the whole time. it was, I mean, a once in a lifetime experience. we kind of were like, let's just do this one because, you know, when are we going to get the time to do it? know, Australia, think is a little easier, easier, but versus, you know, Antarctica with like the melting and all of that. They even say that some of their ⁓ tourist times have shortened a little bit. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Hahaha Wow, wow. Do you have to buy all of your own gear or is it sort of provided? Because I imagine there's a lot of gear to stay warm. Sara: So that's how we prioritized it. They give you special boots that you give back and then they give you parkas that we kept. So that was like lugging all of that back up to New York. ⁓ And then everything else, they kind of give you like a packing list. So I was lucky that I was able to borrow a lot of the clothes from like my family and friends because again, like we're not like we're not skiing people either. So when, when are we going to use these like cold weather long johns and what? Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Wow. Yeah. Right. Sara: So we really didn't have to buy too much, too many things. I mean, I bought more like, Dramamine probably than needed, but that was like the main thing that we had purchased. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah ⁓ Very, very cool. are you any plans yet to go to Australia? Sara: We don't know when we're gonna go next. I don't know. Yeah, so like it's obviously on the list, but no like definite plans yet. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Yes. Very cool, very cool. Well, thank you for indulging me and that sidebar. ⁓ I would love to return now to your bio and ask you a little bit about your origin story. So we heard about a couple of the kind of milestones along your career path, but how did you get into communications in the first place? Was that something you always knew you wanted to do? Sara: So that's what I majored in in college and I thought I wanted to do entertainment. So a lot of my internships like marketing and advertising were very entertainment focused. Like I did marketing for Disney and you know, some other like big movie studios, but it wasn't something that I, after doing it, I was like, this isn't the right. industry. So I kind of actually fell into life sciences after college. I just applied to be like an account coordinator at a smaller agency. And after I started that job, like I knew that I loved doing science communication. So that's the only, know, the what I've been focused on for the past decade or so is really life science comms. So then from that small agency, Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara: ⁓ I just went to a few other small agencies. I did do a stint at a larger agency, but I think it's a personal thing. I prefer the smaller ones. So at my last agency stint, one of my clients asked me to come to lead their investor relations and communications team. So that was my transition to in-house. And that was definitely something that was on my career list. So I was really happy to get that opportunity. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara: And then from that, from that biotech that I worked at, that's how I came to Estellas because then I wanted kind of a larger, a little bit of a larger company. ⁓ And then at Estellas now, I really focus on the gene therapy portfolio. So a lot of work with, you know, rare diseases and ⁓ just kind of explaining the science behind gene therapy and, ⁓ you know, what Estellas is doing and how the industry is going. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. You talked about kind of knowing right away that life sciences was a fit for you. What was it about the subject matter that really was like a lock for you right away? Sara: Yeah. I think I felt that in my own, mean, you know, like I'm not the scientist like creating these therapies, but it felt like more fulfilling, I would say there were some things that I was, mean, again, internships in college, you know, there's only so much that you're doing, but I was just thinking like, does this really matter? And it felt more in science, like, that's, you know, that's what matters. And ⁓ it just, yeah, it was just something that I really liked. I tell people because there are people in communications who are like, how can I get into life sciences? I don't know if I'm not a scientist, I'm not a PhD. And I really think that you just need to have an interest in it. Because there's a lot, you know, there's a lot going on. think the industry is always changing. So there's just a lot to capture someone's attention and interest. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, and it's interesting. I've talked to some folks, and I know often there's a sort of PhD to comms pathway, right? Where folks often are scientists, and then the communications piece is something they've done maybe in an academic context, and then they kind of expand from there. So you're coming from communications being that core skill set. ⁓ It sounds like the agency environment was the place where you sort of started to become ⁓ Sara: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: integrated into life sciences, were there any challenges you faced, whether it was like the learning curve or imposter syndrome or anything else and kind of like, okay, I'm going to go talk about these things that are confusing and complex and complicated. Sara: ⁓ I think for me, it's just I have to take more time to review. mean, I have had colleagues, I have colleagues now who are PhDs doing communications and I've worked with a lot of them throughout my career and they just like get it right away, which is great. But I also think that it's a lot to be said for being able to translate this complicated science into layperson, you know, content. So certainly if I'm looking at something and I'm not understanding it, is the average person going to understand it? And for me, you know, if I have to read data more than one time, if I ask more questions, I research more, that's really what I've done to make sure that I'm, you know, ingesting information in the correct way. But I also think the output is really important. And I always tell Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara: leaders, you there's a lot of scientists that we work with and they're so smart and they're just very in the weeds a lot because they know the material so well, it's almost like the curse of knowledge. ⁓ You know, pretend like you're talking to like an eighth grader or your mom, you know, is that who's really going to understand it if it's if it's two in the weeds. Kristen Sweeney: Hmm? Yeah, definitely. ⁓ We have kind of that outsider perspective as well. I do find it's a double-edged sword, but there's a way in which it's kind of a superpower. think, like you said, kind of digging in, asking more questions. One of the things I think that can help with is understanding which of these data points are actually the most important and most relevant. And that's something that maybe someone with that scientific experience kind of assumes or takes for granted, right? And they kind of are automatically able to prioritize information, but it helped like asking the questions that explicitly call out those priorities and what matters most for this particular audience that we're trying to reach can be really, really valuable. And ⁓ I think sometimes of course you're Sara: Uh huh. Uh huh. Kristen Sweeney: you're calibrating it back up, right? It's like, okay, I need to understand it at maybe the most basic level. These aren't the words we're going to use to talk about it exactly. We're gonna sort of, but now we've broken it down in a way that we can actually kind of grapple with it and look at that final communication and say, like, okay, this is actually making sense. It's not just like all jargon that I can't even begin to parse from a comms perspective, you know? Sara: Yeah. Okay. Definitely. And I mean, some of the best collaborations I've had with colleagues are definitely ones who, it's kind of me with the comms background and them with the PhD and selfishly, I can just go and ask them a question versus having to like Google it. So, makes it a little easier on me. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. ⁓ You talked about in your bio, you talked about leading organizations through kind of critical moments, like big growth milestones. I'm wondering if you can speak to some of the milestones that you've helped companies through and does not have to be by specific company necessarily. ⁓ Sara: Hmm. Definitely. ⁓ mean, working on the agency side, you know, you have experience in with small biotechs and in big pharma. So I've done everything from helping companies go through the IPO process to investor funding, ⁓ crisis communications around, unfortunately, Kristen Sweeney: And maybe we could talk a little bit about that journey and some of the unique considerations and challenges during those times. Sara: failed trials or the FDA shooting them down, things like that. So there's, I would say those are really big changes that happen to a lot of companies and being able to go through one really kind of like, know, sets your experience up for other companies that might have the same, you know, good and bad milestones. And those are, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. What ⁓ do you think is most important from a communications perspective during those milestones? Sara: I think that making sure that everyone's on the same page about messaging is really important and getting the leadership on board and to make sure that you're being proactive versus reactive. If you go to CRL, it's really easy for people to start panicking and sending out messages that may not have all the information. But being able to scenario plan, I always tell this to my teams and even when I was on the agency side that it's great if you're expecting really good news or a great phase three readout. We do need to be prepared just in case that it doesn't go the way that we want. Because I really do think the readiness and preparedness just makes it, ⁓ you know, it's all the world of difference if something goes sideways, for example, or even when you're IPOing or doing an investor event. ⁓ Let's think of the difficult questions that they could ask and delve into the things that maybe we don't want to bring up, but they might have concerns about. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, you talked about executive buy-in too, and I think that's so important. ⁓ We have a former client who's a good friend, and Crisis Communicator is one of her main focuses, just external. And ⁓ something she talks about a lot is this idea that people don't want to talk about this stuff. So I'm wondering if I'm to. Sara: sometimes. Kristen Sweeney: a tactical level, what has worked for you in terms of playing that role where you're kind of asking people to look at the hard things that they don't want to see and they don't want to think about, but as you said, are quite necessary for preparation. How have you been able to do that and kind of get people on board and willing to sort of look at those hard things? Sara: I think it's a lot about education, ⁓ just going through what, mean, always examples that there's other companies that have gone through something like this or have had these difficult questions and just education on, know, we think that this will go really well, but if they ask like this other question, we want to make sure that we're prepared and it'll just make the company, the brand reputation, the corporate, ⁓ you know, the corporate executives reputation look a lot calmer versus sidestepping any type of, ⁓ you know, difficult conversation that they could have. And I think having a good comms team and media team to back you up is really helpful. So it's not just, you know, not coming from like a silo. It's like, this is this is the guidance that we really feel strongly about. And I really haven't had a lot of pushback with executives for ⁓ not wanting to scenario plan or not wanting to think of the difficult questions. Because even if it's something that they're like, I don't really want to answer that, there's still an eloquent way to message something that, ⁓ with media training, bridging back to a message that we do want to talk about. There's always a way to do that. And I think Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Sara: most executives that I've worked with anywhere are pretty savvy about that. Kristen Sweeney: Awesome, awesome. ⁓ I wanna make sure, do we have a little bit of limited time today due to some? Sara: Yeah. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: technical hiccups. So I want to make sure we have plenty of time to get into our one big idea. This is definitely a fun one today. So for our listeners, the one big idea is a segment of our show where we get into the nitty gritty details of one specific insight, experience, or aspect of work that's had a meaningful impact on how you communicate. So today, Sarah, we're going to tackle maybe the number one kind of pharma trope, which is what does it really mean to be a, wait, Sara: Okay. So Kristen Sweeney: for it, patient-centric organization. As you and I know, know, patient-centricity, would, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a company that's mission statement or values doesn't contain this phrase or some version of it. Patience at the center, patients are the focus. The work we do is for patients. So, I'd love to start by just hearing how you think about this thing that is kind of needs necessarily at the center and yet not on its own a strong differentiator for organizations. Sara: I mean, I think it's really how you work with patients and patient organizations. ⁓ For me, one of the most important things that I feel like we do ⁓ as a company and even with my own communications is just advocacy, like patient advocacy and education. It really ties back also to working a lot with rare diseases because there are so many diseases that people literally never heard of. So any work that you do with them, that could be the first time that a random person is even hearing about that disease. And I also think that it really ties back to the science also, like it makes the science real. It really humanizes a story. And I think that it also just working with these communities just helps to bring, you know, like a relationship and collaboration and trustworthiness between industry and patient organizations. So that's one way that I think a lot of companies can go back. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it sounds like walking the talk is a part of that, right? It's like to make that feel fully realized, you've got to actually have the actions that back it up. ⁓ I'd love to dig into a little bit more about the current scope of your work around rare disease. Can you tell us just a little bit more about kind of the portfolio and pipeline that you are focused on right now? Sara: Sure, so it's a lot with neuromuscular diseases right now. ⁓ So Pompe disease, excellent TAM disease. So that's part of like a myotonic dystrophy subset. But I actually not here, but in my previous life and experiences, I actually did a lot with DMD. And I feel like DMD is a lot, very much in the media right now, because there's a lot of work being done. So that makes me happy to kind of see that. when I was first starting, I mean, this was like seven years ago, working with the DMV community, like they were really trying to, you know, educate and push their story out because again, with these diseases, people just don't know what they are. And I think for me and for the company, just working with them, like even if it's like a patient awareness day or if it's a disease awareness day or anything like that. ⁓ What I've seen is really meaningful is having, I think a lot of companies do this, bringing patients and caregivers and actually speak to employees. I think the most engagement I've ever gotten in internal town halls or internal meetings is when somebody comes to actually speak to employees and they get a chance to ask their questions and really learn more. Because I think it just brings that back to what are we doing? Why are we doing this work? Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, it can feel far away sometimes, The focus on our mission in the day to day of what we're doing. And even if writing and thinking about, you know, patients that can get caught up in scheduling and coordination and deadlines and logistics and politics and everything else, ⁓ that's something I've heard consistently is like, for all the ways that Sara: So. requires. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: communications can take patient stories and disseminate them and those ways are important because they get reach and broader distribution that sort of nothing beats taking down all the filters between a patient and the audience and that when you can do that ⁓ that that's consistently the most effective way. yeah. Tell me ⁓ how you think about Sara: I think so too, yeah. Definitely. Kristen Sweeney: you know, approaching patients and their stories in a way that honors them and kind of respects their circumstances and is sort of mutually beneficial experience. Is there anything you all do specifically to kind of move forward in that way? Sara: Sure. mean, I active listening is really important because you are there to help amplify a story, but you're not trying to take over that story or embed your own part of industry too much. So I think that making sure that you're able to illustrate that without becoming too much of the story in the first place. And I know for me, it's really helpful to have like, okay, if we're going to do this patient story, if we're going to do this article, what is the objective that we want? What do we want to be able to tell? And that I think helps ground the purpose of any activity that we do. And then just also kind of listening to them and their ideas and what they want to talk about. ⁓ I really do think it goes back to listening. And I mean, the patient community is that I've worked with, have always been pretty lucky in terms of wanting to collaborate and they're very interested in getting external engagement and telling their stories, that there's other ways that, you know, like thinking of ideas to like, yeah, further amplify or other ideas that we can ⁓ incorporate to just bring more awareness around not only these diseases, but a big thing is, you know, lack of treatments, right? ⁓ Many cancers, for example, have many, many treatments. And for a lot of patients, for rare disease patients, there's no. there's no options or there's nothing that really gets to the core of a disease. So that's also a big part, I think, of education, not just like, what is it like to live with this, but like, these are what we do to manage symptoms, but there's nothing else. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. How do you... And maybe this is not something that's super challenging for you. Maybe it is. I think something I've heard through other conversations is this idea that you've got to recognizing that while patients are at the center and ⁓ you want to tell their stories, Sara: So. You Kristen Sweeney: that you've also got to serve the objectives of the organization and that you, you know, or maybe even that you personally can't be fully responsible for everything and that when you're working closely with patients, it can be challenging to not. want to just kind of offer every resource you can think of professionally, personally, everything else in that support. Is there anything, any kind of practices or mindset that you have to kind of help navigate that? Sara: I think it's more, you know, I think the organizations that I personally have worked with, they're very savvy with being able to, you know, advocate for themselves in terms of, you know, like what a KOL or a hospital can help with. I think that, again, just from my experience, the ones that I've worked with know the support, the communication. I mean, it is very important. Like they know what communication can do. They know, you know, connecting to the media or helping with like... Kristen Sweeney: Right. Sara: videos that we can put out and certainly amplifying it from like a company perspective. So I think in that way, I wouldn't say that I've been challenged with that, but I can't speak for my patient centricity colleagues who all that is all that they do is connect with these groups and organizations. So for me, if I'm being brought in, it's really to work on ⁓ like. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara: one aspect of a story. And I think that these stories really help not only solidify the diseases that companies work on, but again, a lot of work that we do is really reiterating ⁓ what the disease is and the unmet need and really emphasizing that because a lot of, like I said, they just don't have any other options. And I think with gene therapy, it's interesting too, because a lot of companies are like, let's try it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Sara: You know, let's try these therapies and like these smaller populations and then eventually maybe there's a way to expand into larger, larger populations. And that could be, ⁓ you know, a very interesting potential game changer for some other diseases. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, definitely. What in a patient's story do you find consistently connects with you? What makes something, yeah. Sara: I think that, yeah. Oh, I was gonna say, think the, just seeing like the day-to-day life, like that's what's really interesting to me is we had a patient who, or a caregiver, I should say, who's caregiving for her son. Her son's in a wheelchair, he's on oxygen and just all of these other medical tools. And she's like, you know, For you, you wanna leave to go outside, you walk out the door. For me, have to like, do we have a helper, a nurse to come with us? Do we have all of the medical equipment? ⁓ Are we able to make sure that wherever we're going has accommodations? It's just like so much else that people have to think about that not necessarily the wider population has to think of. So those are parts of the stories that I really am like, ⁓ like. You don't think about just being able to leave and walk out of your house, but you do if you're a very diseased family. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, it's interesting. ⁓ You know, I think a lot about empathy and I think often kind of when we maybe use the word empathy casually, it's very tied to an emotion like, ⁓ I feel like sad or I feel. Sara: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. Kristen Sweeney: You know, a lot of times I think it's kind of become sympathy, right? I feel like my heart goes out to them, but there's a way in which empathy is really, and maybe my acting background comes out a little bit in this philosophy, but is really, as much as anything, an understanding. And so what you're talking about, those small details of ordinary life, the physical changes, the extra mental load of what that planning looks like, the additional time it takes to get it. anywhere. That is, to me, what empathy looks like is understanding that complete picture of someone, ⁓ a patient or a caregiver, not as just defined by the condition that they have, but how that impacts every aspect of their life and what it really means to the trope of walk a mile in somebody's shoes. So I just find that fascinating because to me, what you're describing is that sense of being able to fully empathize. Sara: Okay. Kristen Sweeney: with someone and have that understanding of what it is really like ⁓ to live their life. Sara: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of not only disease education, but like therapy education can come in too you know, how do we put into context, like what data means. But if you're saying like, you know, these patients and the trial could ⁓ XYZ longer ⁓ they staved off having to go into a wheelchair for all these months and years. think that really humanizes it more than these data points that sometimes people just see these numbers and they don't mean anything to them. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. ⁓ When you think about that being your relative or your loved one, you know, and what that would mean, that makes a big difference. Yeah. All right, Sarah, before I let you go, I wanna transition us into our lightning round segment. This is called The Last Word. Every guest gets the same five questions, so just go with your gut on these. Are you ready? Okay. Sara: All right, let's do it. I would say clarity. I think that's really at the heart of what I do as a communicator, we do as communicators. It just allows people to, as I said, cut through complexity and understand science and some of our messaging and disease awareness a little bit more. Kristen Sweeney: Question one, what is your favorite word to say out loud? Sara: It's not only something that you do externally, but something that even with my own colleagues throughout my career that I've tried to do. Think of how many times you've been in a meeting and you leave the meeting and you're like, what did we talk about? Or like, what are even the next steps? I've definitely seen colleagues before being like, now what? ⁓ So I think that there's a lot you can do, yes, from an external perspective, but just also in your day-to-day life. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, I'll never forget I read one of Cal Newport's books and it aligned with my philosophy already, but he talked about how to like make email useful. I mean, basically his style is like. I will send an invite for this time and like no need to reply. Like basically like just kind of get it all out there, minimize the back and forth, give all the optionality you need, be succinct and then fewer emails. So it's something I really try and think about. ⁓ When you said clarity, obviously it happens across many, many dimensions, but when you spoke about like just kind of not knowing what happens next, email is definitely one of those ⁓ potential slippery slopes there. Sara: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. ⁓ okay, Lester Square. Kristen Sweeney: How about a word you know from reading, but you're maybe not quite sure how to pronounce it. Sara: And I see this one a lot because so my husband is English and we go to England, you know, at least like once or twice a year. And there's this area in England that when I look at this word, I'm like, it should be like, like, Chester or something. I feel like there's so many words in London, England, that they're not pronounced the way that they look. And then you hear them, someone say it, you're like, what, what is this? I always look at I'm like, it should be like. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, yes. As someone who lived in New England for a number of years and definitely not from there, I was like, what do you mean, Wooster? Like, there's so many more letters in this word than to say Wooster. Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ Question three, what's one phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Sara: Yeah. think the saying that any press is good press is just not true and should not be used. think anybody, any company who has had just bad coverage or anything out there would definitely agree. And I think there's a lot of examples that things that go viral, companies that go viral for the wrong reasons, I'm pretty sure they're not saying this is good press anyway. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, and making the best of a bad situation is not the same as, you know, it actually being good press. I'm thinking about the Coldplay incident. ⁓ Sara: Exactly. was literally, that's what I was thinking of too. If you were going to ask me for an example, was like, I looked on the company, forget, it's like astronomer, astronomy, I can't even remember. But I looked on their social media when all that was going down and they like turned the comments off because no one is coming to them about the company. They're going about these people. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. I think at some point they had like a they made an ad with Gwyneth Paltrow and so that's cheeky but again making the best of a bad situation not the same thing as it actually being a positive event overall. How about a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Sara: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Any word that you put in any of your messaging or communications, you need to know what it means. And I use, and I say this because back earlier in my career, I was writing a media pitch and I sent it over to my boss to take a look at, and he called me into his office and he was like, what does this word mean? It was like something related to kidney disease now. And I stumbled over it. Like I'd seen it in messaging and like, you know, in the materials the company had sent us and I just like used it. But I couldn't describe it myself, so that always stays with me because you could be asked any time what some word is. And I also think that ties back to my favorite word, clarity. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Hmm, yeah, 100%. There's a book I love called Several Short Sentences About Writing, and one of the principles that we have derived from that as a team, because I bought a copy for everyone on my team, was like, say what you mean, mean what you say. Those are two separate, two totally separate ideas. It sounds piffy, but they actually mean two very different things. But yeah, just this idea that like, you can't say what you mean if you don't know what you're saying at all. Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and especially with life science communication, there's so many ⁓ disease names and words that I have an acronym list and a bio list of words that I always hear. I just need to remind myself of what they mean. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yes, yes, 100%. Sometimes we'll be on conversations, you know, and it's with ⁓ an executive or subject matter expert. And it's my job to under like, make good judgments about when it's worth interrupting a conversation for a sidebar. And when I just like write down a version and I'm like, we will figure that out later on, you know. Sara: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Kristen Sweeney: Question five, what's the last thing you read, heard, or watched that really stuck with you? Sara: Okay, I was late to the game with this one, but the book, The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks by Rebecca Skloot. So this is a book, I think it's a movie now too, and I did not see the movie yet, but it's about a black woman whose cervical cancer cells were taken without her consent and used for medical research. And the cells are considered immortal, meaning that they just keep dividing and living. Kristen Sweeney: Okay. Sara: And it's interesting because they've been used in a lot of different studies like polio, viruses, cancer. But the book really makes you think about ⁓ medical research and consent and ethics. So from that standpoint, I thought that was interesting. But also, I do think that this is a book that people even outside of science would like. just is, it goes into her life story and how she was treated by doctors and hospitals in the 1950s. So you have, you the immortal part, the mortal cells without her consent, and then also just the way that her care and how she was being treated. And I think I read it like last year and it's been out for a while, but I would definitely recommend it. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Still thinking about it. yeah, great. Thank you. I think I remember seeing the preview for this film. Was Oprah in it? Produced by maybe? Maybe. We can just wonder. ⁓ Great. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners would like to learn more about you, where can they go to find you? Sara: Maybe? Maybe? you My LinkedIn. Kristen Sweeney: Perfect. Perfect. And we can include that link in the show notes for anyone who wants to connect. Really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. It was great to have you in a great conversation. Sara: Thank you so much, Christa.