Latest / The Uplift- with Luke Pollock / #12 - Luke on Rebuild - What We Have Got Very Wrong About Injury
Transcript
- Luke Pollock: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Uplift Podcast. My name is Luke and this episode is a little bit different. So I'm getting interviewed by a guy called Thomas who has recently started an Instagram page called Rebuild and a business around that Instagram. he's, yeah, invited me on for a podcast for an interview really just to discuss my thoughts on being injured. speaker-1: So hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Long Road Bike, a podcast all about the hidden side of athlete recovery, to give athletes a voice ultimately to help people who are going through their injury journey feel less alone. Thanks so much for the support recently, I really does mean a lot. And again, hearing your feedback goes a long way to helping the podcast kind of be what it is today. And today I'm very excited to announce my guest. And this is someone who played rugby for the Ulster Academy through the Ulster Academy pathway. Luke Pollock: and what people get wrong about injury and what people get right about injury. Maybe some controversial things in there, I believe around pro sport, et cetera. So yeah, I really enjoyed it. The interview was good. I also had nothing else recorded this week from my own podcast. So yeah, it's just been hectic with moving jobs, preparing to go full time, ⁓ self-employed, which I'm buzzing about. speaker-1: I played semi-precious rugby for Cardiff IFC and played in the Bucs Super Rugby Competition for Cardiff University and was actually captain in his last year of study. Now playing for Blackheath in National One. And most importantly, this podcast is there is now a physiotherapist specializing in getting athletes back onto the field and doing what they love. And they actually started a podcast called The Uplift, which is all about talking about the inside of injury and talking about how different ways of rehab and getting players back on the field. So Luke, thank you so so much for being in today. Luke Pollock: Yeah, without rambling on, go subscribe and listen to Rebuild podcast, listen to the other episodes. ⁓ The full episode is about to play now, so you'll hear the introduction from Tom, et cetera. So yeah, I enjoy, sorry, I hope you enjoy. And ⁓ if you have any feedback for me, just check me DM at Luke Pollock online. Enjoy the episode. speaker-0: Thank you man, it's good to be here Tom, thanks. speaker-1: Thank you. So, mean, I was kind of giving a brief introduction to your journey there. I think it be really helpful if everyone could kind of an indication of your journey through your eyes and then what you're doing and what up to now. speaker-0: Yeah, so I guess without making it too long winded, the plan was always to be like a professional rugby player. That was always a plan growing up. Probably lacked a little bit of self-belief in that. And yeah, early on then when I didn't get my first pro contract was like, I need to go to uni. So decided to study physiotherapy because I got on well pretty much with one of the physios at Ulster. And I thought, That's a pretty cool job. Maybe I'll do physio with the idea of if becoming a pro doesn't work out, I could be a pro rugby physio. So then started at Uni at Cardiff. It was COVID in my first year and then got going with the rugby stuff in the second year. And that's when I realized probably that the Bucks League was a bit more serious than I had given it credit for from coming over from Ireland. And then, yeah, my final year. was captain of that Bucks team and we had a good finish in my final year. Took some big games and I still thought there was probably a chance I could go like a professional contract after that year. So I did a bit of preseason with Cardiff Blues, but yeah. Nothing came by way, so I was with Cardiff RFC for that year. And then was with him for one more year before joining Blackheath in September 25. yeah. Alongside that, obviously started working after graduating, so playing semi-pro and working. At the start, admittedly, didn't really love physio, like didn't really like it in uni. ⁓ Did a sports placement with Harlequin's rugby, which I thought I would love. ⁓ They sort of came away from that placement being very unsure if I would want to be a physio in a professional sports team. So that left me a little bit lost. Wasn't until I probably did... MSK, which is like what everyone thinks about when they think about physio, so like muscles and injuries really. Yeah, wasn't until I did a rotation and that, that was like, I can maybe see myself doing this. And then it wasn't really until I started treating people myself independently, privately, that I really thought, like realized I had an injury, ⁓ sorry, had an interest in it and had, yeah, a unique perspective to give other athletes who are injured because I'm currently playing as well. yeah, that's sort of like a whistle stopter of where I've come from and where I'm at the minute. speaker-1: ⁓ nice. mean, that's funny. We actually chatting off just before now. We've actually played against each other, we think. I mean, could have interviewed him like two or three times or something. was actually, I say reminiscing, that's probably the wrong word. But you talk about taking some big scouts and some big games. think one of them, I imagine, will probably come to mind, is being barfed in the first match with the Bugs Super every season by someone in a red scrum and missed the tackle, which didn't get out very well. But I think that our rugby journey is, especially coming from Ireland, I imagine being quite, you know, as you said, the Bucks Super Rugby League is definitely growing into something that think Rosford maybe didn't quite realise when I first went to uni. I've kind of heard of Alex Dombrow on the plane, I've heard of, you Northwall is another one, I think heard these big names being like, know, so yeah, think there's been a shock to my system as well. And something you mentioned there that I think is quite interesting is the it kind of took time to get interested in physio. was interested, is there something, you know you mentioned about, you know, in the private clinic and that's when you kind of learn, but was there something about treating the patients you found maybe interesting, almost, I imagine relating it back to your own injuries that you've had during your career. speaker-0: Yeah, it's a mix of like a change of mindset as well. You know, you got to like set the tools down of rugby sometimes and be like, let me actually invest in my career here rather than just being solely focused on rugby. So when I mentally did that a little bit more and compartmentalized rugby to be a separate thing, and I've been very intentional with that. So I will never like anyone who I play with and that is asking me for injury advice. example, for example, I will give them advice at rugby, I will say that it come and see me outside of it, or I will always get treated by the team physio rather than like ever trying to write my own rehab plans or anything like that. So it's very important that that's kept separate from me, right? I didn't, I didn't start off like with a private clinic or anything like that. I just started helping friends who, who picked up injuries and I saw I realized that the standard of some of the care they were getting was like subpar, not very tailored towards sport. And I recognize that myself, know, most of my return to play tests that I was being given throughout my career were not specific to what the demands were on the pitch, right? And I would never say a bad thing about any of the physios who treated me because yeah, like I've been very, very fortunate, but. Ultimately, there is a gap between that performance. We know as players the demands we need to go through on the pitch. And it's very hard if you haven't physically gone through those demanding scenarios to imagine what it's like. So ⁓ yeah, I quickly made that connection. And then I started to enjoy it a little bit more. ⁓ Diving deeper into my own CPD stuff, just taking online courses. ⁓ writing rehab programs for players and the feedback I was getting was good. And then I started the page, well, it sort of coincided, I the page at the same time. And I knew I always wanted to work for myself. So was like, okay, this could be the way I do that. I didn't know what way I would work for myself, but I knew I always wanted to. So I was like, okay, the physio thing, we can make this work. And then past two years, yeah, I've honestly loved it. There's been times where it hasn't been that fun, but in general just... Yeah, loved that a lot more than I ever thought I would at uni. So yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, that's I think what one thing that struck me straight away was that I really liked that separation of European work. I imagine that I can only imagine the amount of times you asked a training, you know, this and that. speaker-0: Yeah, and like everyone always has your number as well, it's listen, it's really difficult. People will sometimes think I like talk badly of rugby physios and I don't. That's not the intention, right? If you think one one physio ⁓ or if you're if you're very lucky to physios will be in charge of like 30 plus players, right? So on a Tuesday and a Thursday, those players might be getting 15 to 20 minutes with that physio tops right could be five minutes. So you get like more of the midweek messages or, you know, out training, oh, what do you think about this? Don't need a scan, don't need a scan. But I also don't mind it because yeah, like if there's a quick bit of advice I could give, but most of the time I'll just say like, message me during the week or come and see me. No, that I have my own space, I can say, and see me and we'll talk about it seriously. But I think it's, it's too, injuries are too nuanced, right, to give one bit of advice. Unless the advice is, come and see me or find someone to rehab you properly. Quite often players are just looking for quick wins and looking for a bit of validation from a physio in a vertical, almost to say, yeah, no, you'll be fine, mate, you'll be fine. But it's seldom that straightforward. speaker-1: Yeah, I think I think against this to that to me was that we were so previously was there is this gap that kind of exists and as much as you know, we're talking about rugby here. That's kind of I guess that was our main experiences. But I know this translates to lots of other sports that the gap between almost what some physios offer you and then the care that you kind of actually need. And I think that particularly in rugby we can speak of the contact element. But, you know, I imagine it speaks for netball and hockey and other sports. So we're interested to hear that. is there's things you kind of learn about injury and the approach to rehab that is different as a physio than as a player. Now naturally your expertise will be higher, but always maybe more perspective kind of things, maybe more nuanced, you know, as you said, mental side of things, the things that have maybe shifted slightly. speaker-0: So, how I differ from a player on a physio, is that what you're asking? speaker-1: I just thought the lines of like, is the way in which like you have learned about injury or the way in you approach injury when you were a player, compare that to maybe to now things you've learned when being a physio, almost kind of what the lessons you've learned along the way. speaker-0: Okay, yeah, I understand. Yeah, as a player, I was very much like put everything over to the physio and the medical staff and just like, they'll take care of it. This is not my responsibility. And I would view it. Yeah, it's like this is a hindrance. This is holding me back. This is only bad for me. Right. As a physio and I and this ties in with like your mission. you just see the opportunity for the player. And I know that's very like that can be cringe and because it's overused. Like injury is an opportunity, but it truly is. Right. Because you because I have that I have the bigger view because I'm not in the pitch. Right. So if I take on an ACL right now, they've got nine months, nine months ⁓ away from their sport. Yes. But nine months also to develop different parts of their game, to pick up a new hobby, to learn a lot about how they like to train, to just give time to get better. at that sport. So like we, a lot of my athletes will set like, will set ulterior goals during that time as well. So yeah, that's like the mental side of it, how that's changed. Definitely because as a physio, you get the perspective, right? You get to see nine months isn't long in terms of the playing career. But as a player, it's very hard to see that because you're so in the weeds of it and you're so gutted. And I still experience that, know, when I've been injured, I was injured loads last year and it's like still one of the hardest things to process. And it's so easy to say, yeah, injury is an opportunity, but when you're in the weeds, it's difficult. So that's why I think it's good to work closely with one physio and not bunch around loads of different ones. You can really get to know someone and you can build a relationship with that person. ⁓ and they can like sort of hold your hand and give you that bigger perspective. I think that is genuinely the role of the physio aside from just rehab exercises is to give you that perspective as well. So yeah, and I happily take on that role with some of my athletes as well. speaker-1: Yeah, think that's so yeah, I can really resonate with that because I know I've been, you know, certain seen certain fears before and it just, you know, it was feels like it's a of a tick box exercise. think something that I've never been live spoken to on page, I'm sure the same with you is that I think what people want almost is that kind of understanding that goes that personal understanding that by your situation, there's there's an analogy that I kind of my page was idea that if sport means different things to different people, fundamentally on a deeper level, sport means different things. Even if the injury is somewhat similar, it could be almost identical. The kind of outcome is slightly different. And I think one thing that really stood out to me was that I did an opportunity. I think I actually saw you discuss this with, as Kais and Roby's, Isaac, Isaac Marsh. Yeah. I remember seeing that clip. And I think what I found so interesting is that, because I kind of immediately had my kind of rebound hat on, I okay, it's interesting that when you kind of give the player, know, or the physio in this case, sorry, the injured athlete coming to physio, idea that, okay, it's going to be tough, it's going to be hard. But that there, once we've kind of accepted the injury and like, this is this really is what's going on, we can't change the outcome. There are some things we can do, because I know it can be very easy to focus on the negative side of injury. There's also that huge, you know, kind of flip side again, like, I to generally elaborate that on from a physio's perspective, you know, how you can treat your clients and how you kind of frame that deal with the emotions of frustration following the injury, but then also from that, how we can kind of get to that positive mindset. speaker-0: Yeah, think in first off the bat, I think in full time environments is both harder and easier at same time. OK, it depends what stage you find yourself at. So every every injury is completely unique, like you said, and every person is unique. So I could get injured and be out of contract at the end of this this year and not get resigned. OK, so that's that's instantly harder than if I'm on a three year deal, get injured year one. All right. And I joined the rehab group and it's really good crack. and you're in every day, getting good rehab and you've got two years left in your contract, right? That's objectively less hard, subjectively that person might find that more difficult. For talking outside of professionalism, I think in general, it is quite hard and that is due to the lack of support, right? So if we take rugby or like all sports, like netball, hockey, ⁓ the level of sport, ⁓ the level we play at is improving you on, yeah. But the support network around that is not necessarily improving. So like netball in the UK just gets by professionalism-wide. But most netballers will not be professional, won't be paid. So then you can only imagine the support system around that is also subpar. And it's not the players' fault. They're expected to play at a very high level, their bodies through stuff that like 50 years ago, no one would have thought was possible. But the level of care doesn't quite match that. as a part-time player, is, I find, more difficult because you don't have that support network. You don't know what the plan was. And I've diverted from the original question. If you'd like to remind me. speaker-1: I agree. I actually want to touch on that. think I'm glad you brought it up because I remember being in Bath and I surrounded by the best physios, the best support network. you know, as we both know that I was, even if I was injured, so my fourth year, my final year, I kind of blew out my labrum. I was kind of held on by a thread. But it didn't matter to me, even after the surgery, it didn't really hit that hard mentally because I was still surrounded by the players, still surrounded by the group, the team. I was in all the team meetings. I was ball-boying with the game. was kicking girls at half time. I was able to be within that group. But all of a sudden, when I came out from Australia, I was on my own back in my childhood bedroom without like... Yes, I was seeking out physio, but it couldn't be as frequent as it was in Bath. was, you know, you're having weeks and weeks between appointments. And that's kind of where that uncertainty comes in. yeah, mean, yeah, please elaborate on that part-time, full-time, because I can imagine from a physio's perspective, seeing the players all the time is so much more easier for you to manage them rather than, you know, almost the more isolated chunks. speaker-0: Yeah, it's the one part of sport that appeals to me, right, is that I would get to work ⁓ full time with players. That appeals to me. Everything else doesn't really anymore, right, because we can get into that. Why doesn't? But it just takes over your life and you get pressure from external, like so you get pressure from coaches and stuff. Now, if there was an in-between, that's what I try and create with my business where we get to work very closely together. You get to work. You have a session prescribed to you each day. That for a lot cheaper rate than like going and seeing a physio every single day. That's sort of the in-between that I can imagine. Yeah, it's difficult. Like you're supposed to be outside of a team or you're in between clubs or you're thinking, am I going to go back to sport? It's really isolating. You're back at your parents or you're with your mates. They're all playing. blend sport and you don't really have a plan. People are asking you how the injury is. You're like, I don't really know. You don't have a return to play date. You don't have a weekly schedule you follow. You kind of just go off like fields and then how often you see the physical. So it is difficult, ⁓ but it's not all doom and gloom because there are more resources now available online and et cetera. People can seek more help. I just think it's actually the onus. comes way more on to the player, the semi-pro or the sub-a-lite or the amateur to take that on us on themselves and think, I'm actually going to take control of the situation. Whereas in a full-time environment, they get told what to do. I'm going to actually, I'm going to go seek out the help that I need, whether that's a psychologist, whether that's a physio, whether that's just a few mates and say, like, do you have any advice or find someone that's had your injury before, what did they do? You you just take control of your suggestion. And that's, I think like step one. And then that will lead you down a new path rather than feeling lost. speaker-1: No, I agree. think that like, speaking personally, that control is massive. I think something that I've encountered again, I'm not a psychologist, but what I've learned more and more about injuries is that control is so important. The idea that, you know, when I'm injured and there's a delay in diagnosis, there's delay in timelines, I'm missing certain deadlines that a, know, an objectively used a time scale or a classic nine month ACR rehab plan that isn't designed for you, it's just released. And all of a when you start missing deadlines, you feel even worse, even though that might not be AI generated necessarily, but it can feel generic. And I think that's something that, mean, for physios, I can imagine that almost making sure the player knows that there's fundamental injuries aren't linear. I think that's something that's almost so simple to get across as a non-linear process. and that sometimes you might miss deadlines. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And more than often you miss deadlines, right? Because deadlines are like perfect scenario. So I've had a plastered him over my social media, Jamie, who's come back in eight months for an ACL, right? And that is like, I don't know if I'll do that again with the player because he just hit everything really well. know, he returned just before the nine month mark to play his first game. But for every other player you have on, have like hiccups along the way, flat out, you know. And that's also part of it. That's part of the physio's job, I believe anyway, to free him that in the correct way, not to put the stress on the player and be like, you know, we need to hit this otherwise we're going to miss the mark. And it's really nice part of not working with, ⁓ not being employed by teams is that like the coach can come to me and say, when do you think you'll be back? And I'll be like, between this time and this time, you know, and they'll say like, ⁓ can he play on this team? I'll just say, I wouldn't advise them to, no. And they don't pay me, so it's completely fine, you know? and I said the the player tends to trust the physio a more than the coach. But if that coach is paying me, then my bias swing is a little bit more and maybe we feel pressure to put the player at risk of your situation. yeah, deadlines or milestones, they're helpful. But I think... think worry, I would say as general advice, worry less about timelines and more about like hitting milestones, you know? So if I can, yeah, worry less about 12 weeks and worrying more about like how many single-day calvaries can I do in your situation rather than like I need to be running by week 12, you know? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, answer the question. think it be about no. No, no, no. No. But so interesting you say that because I can immediately think back to in September last year when I was, you know, three or four weeks post my Lisfranc operation, called R-O-F-E, called Open Redux Internal Fixation. think, I mean, I, I, sounds about right. Yeah, I know. Well, I should know about it. I haven't spent enough time reading about it, but. Essentially, I the operation. I remember being in contact with people. The page was just starting up. And I was really excited about some of people I was meeting. But even though my account, the whole point was about, you know, don't worry about the comparison. Focus on, again, I didn't use that phrase, but that's an excellent phrase. Milestones, not timelines and stuff. I still read people saying, oh, I had the same operation. I'm up in the six weeks. I'm like, God, so frustrating. And I found it really hard reading that. even though in my situation, again, we kind of chat it off air, my circumstance surrounding this Frank or this Frank is incredibly different to someone else's. And I'm interested from a kind physio's perspective, is comparison something you kind of have to deal with? And then if so, are there any ways from a physio's perspective you've kind of learned to kind of help the players manage that? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, like all the time people are comparing all the time, know, athletes all the time. So Jimmy, I just mentioned, I remember him said to me like, oh, this world's strongest player was back running in nine weeks. I'm like, you're not a world's strongest player, we're not in that environment, different context, you know, but I love the ambition. I love the ambition. And I like when someone says to me, do you think we could get back to this, you? I'm like, yeah, you know, if I think we can, let's go for it. I like that. I'm not saying sit back, relax. Like that's not the message I want to put across. Be very ambitious with the timelines. If someone says you're never gonna play rugby again, make sure you've explored every option before you hang up the boots, you know? But yeah, comparison's huge, especially because social media, right? you shouldn't know, we would never have known how quickly C. Ecclesi or Antoine Dupont go back from their injuries, but not because we have Instagram. It's published everywhere, because ultimately businesses are in control of this. So yeah, they. To athletes narratives, which aren't helpful a long time. ⁓ Yeah, comparison's huge. I think I just really, really focus with my athletes on milestones rather than, like we'll split each rehab block into goals. So at the end of each goal, or at the end of each block, if you haven't hit your goals, you won't progress. So it's very goal-oriented, not like timeline-oriented. And the timeline takes care of itself. The other way of looking at it is you rush through an ACL rehab, get back, yeah, you don't re-tire, but two years later, and I see this all the time as well, two years later, my knee still doesn't feel right, my knee still swells after games, and they're still probably missing a bit of range of movement. So they've just raced through this timeline, and they're moving terribly on the pitch. They feel like they've got less options when they're on the ball because their body's not as able as it was before, and they're in swell. their knee swelling up and painful after a recession. So I see that quite a lot as well. And that's just someone who's not understood like the timeline versus milestones ⁓ very well. A physio that's probably maybe rushed them through as well. So we have a lot of responsibility to take. think physios have a lot of responsibility and it's an absolute pleasure when you take control of someone's rehab. And I think that needs to change as well. speaker-1: No, I I I find really refreshing actually, and I'm thinking through my own rehab journey is that again, like that time, I think it's so hard for so many people and to hear physios come and just such an emphasis on milestone. And I actually absolutely love that phrase. I don't know how I've never heard of it before. I think that's so good because it summarizes what what injury is really about is that the best rehab I had for my shoulder was this idea that again, that I wasn't able to progress to the next block until I hit a specific milestone. on my internal rotation, following essentially labor reconstruction. the kind of agency and control that gives you in injuries in a situation that is so ridiculously out of control because you lost so much independence, you lost so much all these other things. Not by a reprieve, some people could all hockey or netball is almost the tip of the iceberg, let alone all the other things that happen. But I think focus on those milestones, I mean, must make a huge difference to people. And there's some examples of milestones that you can kind of think of, than like, you know, range of motion. mean, imagine it's quite small, small wins essentially, there? speaker-0: Yeah, more like you just, that's the key really. That's the key. Break up into like the big goal, right? You know the big goal. We know the big goal is to be back playing. And ultimately my goal would be for each athlete I take on to be a better player than you were pre-injury, right? So I want you to return feeling better that you've got more options on the pitch. Now, when you're on the ball, was first few sessions back, you're actually thinking. I could take this person on in different ways or I can take that space better than I could before. I can solve more problems than I could before. So that's number one. You've got the big goal and then you break that goal up into timelines. this, hopefully the athlete will be doing this. Hopefully the physio will be doing this with the athlete in mind. You break that big goal into chunks. So first three months might look like this, next three months like this. And then... final three months like this. we're thinking ACL injury here, nine monther. And yeah, there's so many good wins along the way. Like the messages I get are, know, favorite messages you get are like, man, just joined in and skills session tonight in rugby. So not even running, just the skills part of running, like standing passing. Felt so good to have the ball back in my hands. Or just like did a court, like a running session on the side of the court for net ball. while the girls were training for class. Those little milestones that might seem like you're still really far away, you're doing standing skills with a rugby ball, you're a long way off a full contact rugby game, but that's what keeps you going. You've got to break it up into manageable bites. So, yeah, without getting into the weeds too much, we could get into the weeds in terms of each injury and the goals and milestone, but you just, think... I think as a physio, you've to give them the full picture. Why is it important that you have your full knee range and movement back? Why is that important? If the patient doesn't understand that, then the goal isn't as meaningful to them. So when they get it back, it's not a celebration. If I say, need full extension back, because if you don't have full extension back, when you sprint, you're not going to be to hit as high max V as possible. It's going to delay our return to running, et cetera. And if we don't get it back in the first four weeks, it's going to be much harder to regain after that. Suddenly it's like, okay, this is really important to me. And I can just chase this extinction goal for the first two weeks rather than think about how much pain I'm in or missing the sport or whatever. yeah, try and make those boring goals meaningful. And then the exciting goals take care of themselves. Yeah, you don't need to hype up the exciting goals of the player or the athletes to do that for themselves. speaker-1: I think what I like so much that is that you say that the small wins are small wins. We're not trying to coat them or wrap them up in some fancy new dress and this idea that they're small wins for a reason. But when we allowed ourselves to kind of treat them as small wins, and particularly from a physio kind of almost, I say speaking down from a place of expertise to go, no, okay, these are small wins, but this is why they're small wins. I mean, that's supposed to be so rewarding for you. I imagine as a physio seeing athletes kind of going through that process. speaker-0: Yeah, it's also the you also see the flip side of it, right? When it's not going right. It's also like, why haven't we hit that milestone? Yeah, is there something I could have done better? Maybe the rehab plan wasn't right. And it's constantly learning, you know, it's never it's never like we said earlier, it's never just an upward trajectory, often, often plateaus and sometimes it goes backwards. But yeah, you just have to. That's part that's part of it, I guess. But yeah, they are small wins, but collectively you get bigger wins. So yeah, we'll have small goals and then at the end of each one of those, you'll have a big goal. So small goals being regaining around your movement, strength, big goal, we run. ⁓ Then when we're back running, ⁓ 50, 60, 70%, big goal, we join in the skill session. So ⁓ yeah, you just build it up. appropriate for the patient and it's great when it goes well. ⁓ It's tough when it goes badly, but that's that's all part of it, you know. speaker-1: Yeah, I imagine just thinking off the of my head here about what the things that athletes would go through is I imagine social media doesn't help or at times can be super helpful and inspirational. I started comparing upwards and you know, I'm going to help them inspire me, but I can imagine a significant portion that you encounter those, you know, feeling out of the behind because they've seen other people do more. speaker-0: Yeah, I think it's like everything with social media. It helps and feels good in the short term when you when you're watching something, you're like, ⁓ he's he's done that or she's done that. I can maybe do that. And you feel like that dopamine rush for like 20 seconds. And then when you go away and set your phone down, then it dawns on you like you have no idea how to get there. You have no plan and you suddenly feel very far from that. So at the time, it might feel quite good in terms of. like someone else has done this, but then when you go away, you realize, actually, you might be very far from that and your circumstance might be very different from that person. And then the ultimate thing to avoid for athletes is to start blaming, ⁓ like, sort of blaming your situation for that. So I can't do that because I'm not a professional athlete or I can't do that because I don't have the resources. Like, you can do more than you think. ⁓ you just kind of got to find a way to do it, which is very easy for me to say, as I've mostly injury free at the minute, but yeah, that's what, yeah. speaker-1: No, I really don't understand where you're coming from because on the one hand, of course, I've got my hat on here as the injured athlete in this scenario. If you're going out and what you can do is just so important. It's that with social media, this idea that as I alluded to earlier, it's, oh, well, they're doing this. I must be able to do this. Or they've got on the WOD bike. I can therefore go on the WOD bike. And that's just not how it works. And sometimes as injured athletes, can... because everything's out of control, we can kind of latch onto things and use them inspiration. But I think the more I've gone through my journey, the more I've realized that sometimes even if it's something, as you mentioned earlier, the small goals, but to me that kind of translates into I can swim at the moment, okay, if I can swim. And that's my only form of aerobic condition that I can do for my situation. Because the ski, let's say, see to ski, for example, I've seen loads of people in moon boots do it. So post-list rank operation, I'm gonna get back in the gym. But for me, I can't do that. because I'm still struggling with my shoulders from from ripping, having for whatever reason they haven't healed properly and I haven't healed them properly. Okay, well, if I can do that, I'm just going to my shoulders worse and my shoulders worse. I'm just gonna be in even more pain. It's almost like figuring out what you can do for each person. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that's like you just you just summarized like why each situation is so unique. So that's why like selling it selling a template. Doesn't doesn't work. I would love to be able to sell like an ACL return to play template and some people think some people think that I do. That's what I do when I said like online rehab. Yeah, yeah, unfortunately it is. It's all bespoke time consuming, but. speaker-1: type it into chat, should be a T and send it off. speaker-0: What you can sell, and I do think it's valuable, is selling milestones. So at this time, by this time you should be able to do this. Before you go back to running, you should be able to do these things. And if you can't do those things, go figure out how to do it. Or find a physio who can help you. And I think that is more helpful. ⁓ Yeah, how do I get onto that? ⁓ speaker-1: I'm glad you came on to it because I agree with it. I'd love to hear if there's kind of like, I'd be really impressed with the way, know, the milestones things really stuck with me. I think is there kind of one thing, thinking about some of injuries you've heard and you mentioned before, you know, things, you your clavicle, my question saying that, you broke your clavicle. speaker-0: Yeah, I my clavicle. I broke my cheekbone as well, which I forgot to tell you. Yeah, had chest surgery when I was 14. So I had a year off rugby then. Yeah, lots of sprained ankles. And so yeah, I've got a thing called osteitis pubis at the minute. it's pretty much inflammation of your pubic bone. So I'm playing through it at the minute, which is not speaker-1: You might have to run me through that, speaker-0: Not advised, but season is nearly up. yeah, it's just. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I just on that point, I'm a big fan of like. Find tonight knowing what's going on when you make those decisions, right? So when I was playing on my I just say it's like a sore groin, OK, and I didn't know what was going on. It was very stressful and I wasn't sure if I was going to do some serious damage. speaker-1: It's your situation as well, it's your situation. speaker-0: I then got an MRI scan, physio opinion, doctor opinion, sort of realized this is manageable till the end of the season. So in that situation, I think that's okay. So if you don't know what's going on, I think that should be your main priority. let's find out what's going on and then we can make the decision is it wise to keep playing on it. If you're blindly going into things, it's a bit more dangerous. speaker-1: I just think, just think quickly on that. that's so important because I remember that and in my case, it was actually a case of choosing not to play, almost the opposite of what we mentioned there. So I remember with my right foot initially, know, the club was asking when you can play, when can you play? And I was feeling a bit better. You know, gradually getting, I actually don't know how, but I managed to get back to some running, which in hindsight, don't quite know how I managed to, but. I then had the proper CC scans, the best I'll wait, very and CCT scan to check the list frame joints and then I got the decision, you know what? This case you definitely shouldn't play, but you even if it was, you know, slightly minus KK, we now know what is going on and coming back to what we both said earlier that like not to quote, you know, game of Thrones, kind of like knowledge is power and stuff like that. like once you understand what's going on, you then have the choice to go right. I can then decide what's going on. It's when you don't know that's when they can't imagine the fear kind of. comes in and that kind of thing. speaker-0: Yeah, and that's when you will start to, yeah, that's when the bigger injuries can come. You start to become more apprehensive on the pitch, on the court. You start to not feel like yourself anymore. And that can play, play in the background all the time. It's what you want to avoid. yeah, no, find out what's going on. And I would say ultimately get a plan, get a plan in place. That will be very empowering for you. And also, enjoy it like it's an opportunity try and find the enjoyment in it like yourself you know you're not playing anymore but you're doing this now which is really cool which you never would have done if you didn't have these injuries so you're going to talk to like this is only the start you're going to talk to very cool people you're going to meet cool people ⁓ which you wouldn't have had the chance to do if you didn't have a lisfang injury so there is a silver lining but yeah and you know it's good it's good car to build it I think What you said about ⁓ previously going and speaking to your old school is really good. When you're getting into a sport like rugby, ⁓ netball, any of these kind of sports, it should be labeled with, when you sign up to do this, you will get serious injuries and it will be hard at times. So every time we're surprised we get injured, but everyone goes through it. I can't think of a player who hasn't had a significant injury or missed multiple games. So it's part of the game. as well. speaker-1: I I really appreciate that. you. That does mean a lot to me. And think that what's nice is that as I kind of hear that, I know that that's what so many other people kind of need to hear. I think it's that, again, like, I mean, also hasn't come without, you know, all those feelings of guilt, aloneness, all those kind of things, as I alluded to, and you discussed on your page as well. But I think the idea that once we kind of know what's going on, we know our almost like boundaries and what we're doing and when and we then have the, again, there's milestones in place that, OK. You almost have that weight off your shoulders to go, right, well, if I can do this, I'm going to try and do it. But there's something like I've got a guitar in the corner there and I'm terribly failing to learn. Yeah. And that kind of thing. It really is kind of expanding. You're more than what's going on. Yeah. It does mean lots of people. speaker-0: Yeah, whether it's I try to encourage my lads around to, you ⁓ to read a book, you know, like expand your mind, get interested in different things. ⁓ There's more than just rugby. I like the real competitive ones. You're completely obsessed. We'll we'll struggle to let go of it a little bit. But yeah, if it were me and I were out for a long term injury, I would probably for a period. pull away from rugby and then get back into it as they get closer to that return to play. yeah, allow yourself to to fall into different things, to experience different things. Yeah, don't get too fixated with that return to play date. Hold it loosely, I would say. speaker-1: Awesome. Well, we'll call it that. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. people listening, we've got to really get inside there into both your journey, but also the way from an enthusiast's perspective, kind of looking in. And that milestone, yeah, that really stuck with me. So, yeah, thank you very much. speaker-0: Cheers, Tom. Thanks so much,