Latest / The Soap Box Podcast / Why the creative industry needs a class reckoning, with Emilia Kireli-Reed

Transcript

Why the creative industry needs a class reckoning, with Emilia Kireli-Reed · The Soap Box Podcast

• 1:20
  I like to think about branding and marketing as tools for connecting ways to build trust, grow communities, reach the right people.
• 1:34
  But what if the way that we are marketing is actually widening a gap rather than closing it?
• 1:43
  What if it's making connection?
• 1:45
  Less likely.
• 1:48
  This week on the soapbox, I'm talking to Amelia Carli Reid, founder and creative director of Careli Studio, and we're chatting about how creative industries can unintentionally and sometimes very intentionally feed division.
• 2:04
  Whether it's the dominance of middle class voices in Adland, or that relentless push for hyper aspirational visuals that are now being pushed out by ai, we've gone way past Photoshop.
• 2:17
  We explore how branding shapes what people believe is normal, successful, and desirable, and we chat about what that does to those who never see themselves reflected.
• 2:29
  And how that makes them more likely to be manipulated by people who, in politics or in culture, who promise that they do see them and represent them.
• 2:43
  AM shares her journey from a working class background into the world of creativity agencies all the way to starting an agency of her own, and.
• 2:53
  We challenge the idea that more diversity automatically solves the problem, which was a really interesting discussion.
• 3:00
  We talk about class culture, power, and the need for purpose driven businesses to think critically about the messages that we're putting out into the world, what assumptions and what tropes we are, um, using.
• 3:17
  If you are serious about using your business for good.
• 3:20
  Which, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm pretty sure you must be.
• 3:23
  Then this is a conversation that asks you to look a little bit deeper because it's not only about what you say but who you're saying it for.
• 3:34
  So grab a cup of coffee at the pile of laundry that you're folding or whatever you do when you listen to these podcasts.
• 3:42
  Uh, and listen to em.
• 3:43
  Get on her soapbox.
• 3:47
  Okay.
• 3:48
  Peta: Em, thank you so much for coming to be on the soapbox and chatting to me today.
• 3:52
  Em: lovely to be here.
• 3:53
  Peta: Excellent.
• 3:54
  Peta: So, for people who do not know you, um, can you give them a little bit of a background into who you are, what you do, how you got here?
• 4:02
  Em: Sure.
• 4:03
  Em: So I am the founder and creative director of Carly Studio.
• 4:08
  Em: And how I would describe what we do is that we are the branding and communication studio designed to unlock the full potential of purpose-driven businesses.
• 4:17
  Em: Um, I got here through.
• 4:22
  Em: Coming from a very working class background to then somehow finding my way through the creative industry, working in a branding agency, a digital design agency, a global advertising agency, and then going so to this I want to work for myself and trying to back myself.
• 4:40
  Em: Um, at the global ad agency that I worked at, there were a few clients that had.
• 4:49
  Em: Essentially said that they were doing some very good things and weren't in the background, and that didn't align with my values.
• 4:57
  Em: So now that we run Cari, we wanna make sure that we're working with people who are doing good things for everyday people and helping make the world a better, more fun, nice place to live.
• 5:11
  Em: So that's how I got here.
• 5:13
  Peta: Well, that sounds fabulous.
• 5:14
  Peta: excellent.
• 5:14
  Peta: And, um, uh, lots of people who listen to the soapbox will Yeah.
• 5:18
  Peta: Fit into that kind of category.
• 5:20
  Peta: so people who come on the soapbox, generally I ask them, um, what is the thing that, um, gets them all riled up, that they can't stop talking about, that they end up in the kitchen with a glass of wine at the end of the party.
• 5:34
  Peta: If we're, you know, young and hip enough to go to parties anymore, um, that they talk people's ears off about like, what is their soapbox.
• 5:40
  Peta: So what is your soapbox?
• 5:44
  Em: So recently I think we've seen a bit of a rise in polarization in the last few years.
• 5:53
  Em: And last year me and my business partner Ollie, were trying to question why that is.
• 6:00
  Em: And after looking at our own industry, we were thinking about.
• 6:06
  Em: Oh, like I wonder if we're contributing to it in some way.
• 6:11
  Em: So when we looked into it, I think that at least 48% of the UK is actually working class, whereas in the creative industry or in the arts, only one in 10 people are from that kind of background, which is insane, which means that all of the.
• 6:29
  Em: All of the media that portrays what our world looks like, whether that's in advertising, tv, the radio, the news design, everything is coming from a perspective that doesn't actually understand what it's like for half of the population.
• 6:46
  Em: And I think that means that those people are feeling alienated, not represented, not seen, not heard.
• 6:53
  Em: So when someone who might be a little bit more.
• 6:58
  Em: Politically divisive, but is going, I see you.
• 7:03
  Em: I hear you.
• 7:04
  Em: I know what your experience is like, and I want to support you.
• 7:07
  Em: You're gonna vote for that.
• 7:08
  Em: So I think our industry is contributing to a little bit of polarization and that there's some things that we could do a bit differently to make things better.
• 7:18
  Peta: I can't think in any way who you might be talking about.
• 7:25
  Peta: On, on either side of the Atlantic.
• 7:29
  Peta: okay.
• 7:30
  Peta: So that is super interesting for like a million different reasons, which is essentially why after we had a chat, I was like, please come on the podcast.
• 7:39
  Peta: Um, firstly because I come from a really working class kind of background too, grew up in a council state.
• 7:46
  Peta: Um, surrounded by people with very little money.
• 7:49
  Peta: Um, very little access to education, all that kind of thing because I was quite academic.
• 7:55
  Peta: Ended up going to a really good school.
• 7:57
  Peta: Going to university, moving my way into that kind of other class essentially, and, and at times feeling very like out of my depth.
• 8:07
  Peta: Um, especially when I went for an interview at Oxford University.
• 8:10
  Peta: That was an interesting experience.
• 8:13
  Peta: Um, uh, but yeah, so it's very interesting from a personal perspective.
• 8:18
  Peta: Um, but also this idea that, um.
• 8:23
  Peta: The creative industry shouldn't be let off scot-free when it comes to this, um, this polarization narrative.
• 8:31
  Peta: 'cause I think in, in, my circles anyway, and, and the things that I've read and the things that I've seen, the buck is very much kind of left at the door of social media companies or politicians, um, rather than, um, kind of a wider, more cultural.
• 8:52
  Peta: Kind of perspective.
• 8:53
  Peta: So can you talk me through a little bit, like, can you gimme some examples of what that, what that would look like or what that has looked like?
• 9:01
  Em: What do you mean
• 9:02
  Peta: So in terms of.
• 9:03
  Peta: like the, so the creative industries that you were talking about, like being responsible for, um, showing us this view of society and this view of what, um, what people's lives are like.
• 9:15
  Peta: That actually, um, discounts almost half of the population.
• 9:21
  Em: Yeah.
• 9:22
  Em: Yeah.
• 9:23
  Em: So if I think about, let's just go for like a sofa advert.
• 9:28
  Peta: Mm-hmm.
• 9:29
  Em: Um, the kind of thing that you might see on the tele or on like a social media ad.
• 9:35
  Em: I don't know if they do so sofa, social media
• 9:38
  Peta: I've definitely seen social media.
• 9:42
  Em: like the room is always beautifully designed.
• 9:46
  Em: It's always.
• 9:47
  Em: Well lit.
• 9:49
  Em: It is always high-end looking.
• 9:52
  Em: It's very aspirational, and the room is always massive as well for some reason.
• 9:59
  Em: Now, I know for a fact that most of the houses around me, at least where I live in southeast London, like they do not have living rooms that look like that.
• 10:12
  Em: So you're kinda watching the TV and you're like, this is a fantasy world.
• 10:15
  Em: Like I don't relate to it, even if it's just a sofa ad because it's been built to look like something that you should want to have.
• 10:23
  Em: But what if we looked at what is really like home comfort and started to like create advertising that would look like.
• 10:33
  Em: I spoke to someone the other day about how they struggled to get their sofa into their house or into their flat, like make an effort about that.
• 10:42
  Em: Like just trying to get it through like the communal doorways or like get it up the stairs.
• 10:47
  Em: Like that would be funny and it would engage with real life people.
• 10:52
  Em: Um.
• 10:53
  Em: But yeah, that like as, as something as simple as that.
• 10:57
  Em: Or if we think about some of the shows that we see on Netflix now, like if I think of, is it sex education?
• 11:08
  Em: Like I love that show.
• 11:10
  Em: I think it's brilliant, but the kind of portrayal of the school doesn't actually feel very realistic.
• 11:18
  Em: Um, I like the hyper.
• 11:22
  Em: Uh, what's the word again?
• 11:26
  Em: It's like hyper idealistic
• 11:27
  Peta: Mm-hmm.
• 11:28
  Em: sort of visualization and I think it provides representation of all sorts of things that, with people who actually need representation need, but it does forget about a big part of the population, so.
• 11:42
  Em: Could we bring them in?
• 11:43
  Em: Could we feed in?
• 11:44
  Em: How could we portray them positively?
• 11:46
  Em: Because they're not really portrayed positively either.
• 11:49
  Em: That, that's where I'm thinking, what do we do?
• 11:53
  Em: How do we reshape the messages that we put out into the world?
• 11:56
  Em: Even on the news, like you'll see articles about, uh, you know, say if something bad happens to a person where they get hurt.
• 12:11
  Em: Like a, a white person is more likely to be represented in a way that is like forgiving, whereas a, so a person of color is going to probably be demonized in some way or like, it, it just, everything feels very imbalanced.
• 12:29
  Em: And
• 12:30
  Peta: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Em: I think we could look at dampening the hyper idealistic and then lifting some of the, um.
• 12:41
  Em: Some of the stuff where we kind of look down upon it
• 12:43
  Peta: Mm-hmm.
• 12:44
  Em: from this perspective that we seem to sit in the creative industries.
• 12:48
  Peta: Yeah.
• 12:49
  Peta: No, that makes sense.
• 12:50
  Peta: When you were working kind of at the advertising agency was like, did it feel quite isolating being in that kind of environment and, and working on those campaigns?
• 13:03
  Em: Yeah.
• 13:04
  Em: I mean like at the time I don't think I'd thought about it too much, but I definitely felt, I felt out of place.
• 13:15
  Em: So I went to a conference by creative equals, it was called the RISE Conference, and someone from, um, I think it was major players, she had done some research into the hiring of creatives in the industry and she basically shared that, you know, it's not only your education or your portfolio that's gonna like help you get in, but if you have.
• 13:39
  Em: If you do come from a working class background, if you have a neurodivergence, if you have a different sexuality, if you're a different ethnicity, all of these things build up as blockers to like set you back from getting into that world.
• 13:54
  Em: And from a class perspective, she explained that.
• 13:59
  Em: If you've grown up in a working class background, you're more likely to integrate and talk to people of the same class as you, but not really anyone else.
• 14:08
  Em: And so you're used to a particular way of being.
• 14:10
  Em: Whereas if you are in the middle class, you tend to, like when you're a kid, your parents might be friends with, I don't know, say they're a lawyer and.
• 14:25
  Em: They've got a friend who's in the creative industry or they've got a friend who works in finance.
• 14:31
  Em: Like they would come round and sit around the dinner table.
• 14:35
  Em: The kid would be present and learn to interact in that way, and they get to like move a little bit more fluidly through those spaces.
• 14:44
  Em: Whereas if you haven't had that exposure, you come in and you are like, oh my God, how do I navigate this?
• 14:51
  Em: So it feels like.
• 14:52
  Em: You've got like little hurdles to jump through and that's definitely how it felt at the, uh, at all of the places that I've worked.
• 15:03
  Peta: No, that's fair.
• 15:03
  Peta: I think, yeah, you learn, you learn a lot more social skills, you learn a lot more.
• 15:07
  Peta: You have a lot more opportunities to maybe have conversations that kind of, that then you can replicate or learn from.
• 15:13
  Peta: When you go into those, like into those different workplaces, you are more likely to open up to be opened up to.
• 15:21
  Peta: Um, different jobs existing too.
• 15:23
  Peta: So like when I was growing up at school, like nobody I knew was a copywriter.
• 15:27
  Peta: Nobody I knew, I didn't even know it existed.
• 15:29
  Peta: Like
• 15:30
  Em: Me neither.
• 15:30
  Peta: worked in advertising, like nobody did those, I, I, I knew about teachers and builders and like bankers'cause I knew that there were banks, but like, yeah, all those kind of things.
• 15:43
  Peta: So your.
• 15:44
  Peta: So even if you are ambitious, like your options are narrowed to what you can to what you can see and to what those people around you can kind of like show you and tell you about.
• 15:53
  Em: Yeah, totally.
• 15:54
  Em: Like from my perspective.
• 15:56
  Em: I thought my options were to work in a care home like my mom, work in a factory, like my dad work in a shop.
• 16:04
  Em: 'cause there's shit loads of shops where I grew up or like work in a cafe, that kind of thing.
• 16:14
  Em: It like, I didn't know what else was out there.
• 16:16
  Em: Um, and then I think.
• 16:20
  Em: One day I think I was watching changing rooms on the TV and I was like, oh, that looks like a fun job.
• 16:25
  Em: Like designing rooms like that seems to happen to this creative element of me.
• 16:31
  Em: And thankfully one of my friends at secondary school, her mom, like ran a design agency.
• 16:36
  Em: And I went there and I was like, what is this?
• 16:38
  Em: I'm really enjoying this.
• 16:40
  Em: And then just kind of settled on it and pursued it.
• 16:42
  Em: But if I hadn't have had that, I think I'd be feeling very lost.
• 16:46
  Peta: Yeah.
• 16:47
  Peta: Yeah.
• 16:47
  Peta: That's essentially like obviously I, you worked incredibly hard, but that, that spark essentially is luck of like knowing the right people or knowing somebody.
• 16:56
  Peta: Yeah.
• 16:56
  Em: Yeah.
• 16:57
  Em: Being exposed to it in some way, like I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have known about it.
• 17:02
  Em: Like how did you get into copywriting?
• 17:05
  Peta: copywriting.
• 17:06
  Peta: Um, so I, so I did youth work and then I did teaching and then, um, and then I, when I was pregnant with my daughter, I was, um, I was kind of helping organize and individual exams in a school.
• 17:23
  Peta: Um, and during lockdown.
• 17:25
  Peta: They canceled all the exams.
• 17:27
  Peta: So the job that I had to go back to after Aternity leave disappeared.
• 17:30
  Peta: Like it wasn't there'cause there were no exams.
• 17:32
  Peta: Um, so I had to find something else to do around two kids in lockdown.
• 17:36
  Peta: Um, and I had a blog that I'd written about kind of getting, getting married and getting pregnant again after being widowed.
• 17:44
  Peta: And a couple of companies found it and asked me to write for them, and they paid me money.
• 17:48
  Peta: And I went, oh.
• 17:51
  Peta: This sounds like it might be a thing.
• 17:52
  Peta: And then I did some research and I went, ah, turns, turns out it is a thing to think of copywriting, which I never knew existed.
• 17:59
  Peta: Um, yeah.
• 18:00
  Peta: So it was, it was pure kind of, it was like, yeah, somebody finding out, somebody reading something that I'd written and me, me thinking, wow, if they're doing this for me, then they must be paying other people to write other things too.
• 18:14
  Peta: let's go and find out what it is.
• 18:16
  Peta: Um.
• 18:18
  Peta: Yeah.
• 18:19
  Peta: And so, so if, um, the year before last, last year, I went into my son's school, um, to the careers week and, um, yeah.
• 18:28
  Peta: And talked to a bunch of them about how this is a, this is a real job and if you are creative and you love like words and all these kind of things, then yeah, then it is an option that you should be thinking about.
• 18:40
  Peta: Um, you don't just, like, if you do English, that doesn't mean that you have to be a teacher.
• 18:46
  Peta: Yeah.
• 18:47
  Em: Like, there are more options out there for you.
• 18:49
  Peta: Yeah.
• 18:49
  Peta: And you can go and do those.
• 18:51
  Peta: Um, uh, so that's really interesting.
• 18:54
  Peta: So when you, you were, were you the only person from your background in any of these agencies, or were there just not very many of you?
• 19:02
  Em: Um, I'm trying to remember.
• 19:06
  Peta: I'm not gonna go check up on you.
• 19:07
  Peta: It's fine.
• 19:08
  Em: Yeah, I think about like, so my first job, I think everybody was middle class.
• 19:18
  Em: The person who I had the most in common with was actually European.
• 19:22
  Em: Like she came here like completely from scratch and she was just friendly and I was like, oh, like I feel like I can connect to you.
• 19:29
  Em: There wasn't any of this like weird social hierarchy to navigate.
• 19:34
  Em: Um, and then I'd say a pretty similar thing for everywhere else I worked.
• 19:40
  Em: Like the people that I clicked with were European and didn't have these weird constructs, I can't think of, um, anybody.
• 19:52
  Em: I don't actually remember having any conversations about class at the time.
• 19:57
  Em: I think everybody just assumes that you are from that world and they don't really think about it.
• 20:02
  Em: And then they're like, oh, you behave a little bit weird.
• 20:10
  Em: Yeah.
• 20:11
  Peta: No, that's fair.
• 20:14
  Peta: Okay.
• 20:15
  Peta: And did that make, did that make a difference to like the way that your ideas were, were kind of perceived or received, do you think?
• 20:26
  Em: My background.
• 20:27
  Peta: Yeah.
• 20:28
  Peta: And your, so if, so one of the things that you were saying earlier is that, um, the background of the majority of people in the creative industries means that they think in similar ways and kind of paint the world and paint aspiration in, in certain ways.
• 20:47
  Peta: Um, and you coming from like a different kind of background.
• 20:52
  Peta: Did that make a difference in terms of maybe what you pitched or maybe how those kind of pitches were received or anything like that?
• 21:00
  Em: I think the kind of ideas that I would've put forward would've been in line with what I was seeing in the agency.
• 21:07
  Peta: Yeah.
• 21:08
  Em: Um, but perhaps the way that I presented them, I think given that this was 10 years ago and I was like quite anxious and nervous and I didn't know what I was doing, um.
• 21:21
  Em: I would approach my creative director because I didn't have the confidence and because I sort of perceived his authority, like in that dynamic, um, as a little bit scary.
• 21:36
  Em: I think when I presented work, it just wouldn't land because.
• 21:42
  Em: There was this disconnect.
• 21:44
  Em: I didn't feel like I could actually sit there and it was right for me to sit in that space.
• 21:49
  Em: Um, and I think I, I, I, having a, one of my best friends is also from a similar background, and I know that she's experienced a similar feeling like you need to.
• 22:02
  Em: It feels like you kind of need to like step in and like rightfully own the space that you're in.
• 22:07
  Em: I dunno whether that's from being of a specific class background or being a woman or any of the other, fuck it.
• 22:17
  Em: Um, but yeah, there's, there was definitely an element of that at play that probably held back some work actually going through.
• 22:25
  Peta: That's really interesting.
• 22:26
  Peta: So you said that you'd probably, the things that you would pitch would be, would be similar to the things that you were seeing in the rest of the agency.
• 22:34
  Peta: So there's like.
• 22:36
  Peta: Sometimes the argument is you just need more people from, like you, from a variety of backgrounds, and, and then you'll get a variety of ideas.
• 22:44
  Peta: But there is an element of like, of group think, especially when you are going into, um.
• 22:51
  Peta: Like a situation or an organization where there is like a, an overwhelming majority of some kind of group.
• 22:57
  Peta: So like throwing, this sounds really like, really flippant, but like throwing a working class person into a London ad agency is not suddenly going to result in like this explosion of more relatable, um, and fresh ideas.
• 23:13
  Em: Not necessarily.
• 23:16
  Em: I think given that.
• 23:18
  Em: At the agency I was at, like we were working on very specific brands.
• 23:23
  Em: So like if, if I think back to some of the things that we had to put ideas forward for, it would be like a, a global beauty brand.
• 23:30
  Em: Like you've got a picture in your mind of like what their brand needs to communicate specifically.
• 23:38
  Em: I think it is when you get people who are.
• 23:43
  Em: A different background who can reach like the director level, they can start to like shape the way that a campaign goes rather than the creatives responding to a brief that's already been kind of very clearly outlined and
• 23:56
  Peta: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 23:57
  Peta: Yeah.
• 23:58
  Em: So if you've got a planner or a creative director kind of going, this is the general vision or the path that we're gonna go down, the creatives are gonna respond to it.
• 24:08
  Em: And the client will also play a role in setting where they want that direction to go.
• 24:14
  Em: So I think it's not, the clients also need to be invited into the conversation and go, how does, how should we challenge this?
• 24:21
  Em: How, how could we find that balance of lifting up others and dampening down the hyper, hyper, uh, idealism?
• 24:31
  Peta: Do.
• 24:32
  Peta: Is it?
• 24:32
  Peta: Yeah, that's, that's the tricky bit because there is, there is an economic kind of element to the conversation in that the general consensus is the aspiration.
• 24:45
  Peta: Sales.
• 24:46
  Peta: Like that's like, that's, that's kind of almost like a, a foundation of, of branding, of sales, of, of advertising that their aspiration sell.
• 24:56
  Peta: And there, I think there's a, there's, there is a slightly louder conversation coming through about relatability, like, especially when it comes to, to copy in ads.
• 25:05
  Peta: It's a lot.
• 25:07
  Peta: Not everywhere, but there are, there are a lot more kind of like lines, taglines, and kind of copyright advertising coming through that feels like it's more relatable and knowing rather than aspirational, but still, like it's still very kind of the overriding idea is that people should want.
• 25:28
  Peta: To be their life, and it should be, it should look better than they think their life looks.
• 25:33
  Peta: And that is the only way that you can get'em to buy the thing.
• 25:36
  Peta: So if you are inviting clients into that conversation, is the, is the economic counterargument simply it's 48% of, of the UK market, for example?
• 25:50
  Peta: Or are there other elements to it that would, that kind of would bring clients into those conversations?
• 25:56
  Peta: Not that I'm saying like 48% of the UK market isn't a very compelling economic argument, but I'm just wondering, is it that simple or is there Yeah.
• 26:08
  Peta: Or is there more?
• 26:10
  Em: I would wonder, I don't know, I'd wanna take it into like a laboratory.
• 26:15
  Em: This is how I, this is how I like view all of the work that we do.
• 26:19
  Em: It's, it's, we're in a lab, we're testing it out.
• 26:22
  Em: So like, I wouldn't wanna go, oh yeah, you'll definitely get all these things because you did this.
• 26:30
  Em: But I'd be like, can someone be brave enough to run an experiment and see?
• 26:36
  Em: And like if you look at, if you look at the way that, if you do, look at the way that politics is going.
• 26:45
  Em: You can see that there's quite a compelling draw by actually tapping into that and being consistent with one voice, with one message, which is very much like, we see you, we relate to you, we understand you wanna help you.
• 27:01
  Em: Like perhaps that is something that the creatives could tap into for commerciality in a way.
• 27:09
  Em: Um, yeah.
• 27:13
  Peta: So if they, if they did, if more kind of, if more creatives, if more brand agencies did tap into that relatability, moving away from that, like hyper idealism, what impact do you think it would have on wider society and that polarization?
• 27:31
  Em: My gut feeling is that it would be a positive one, I would hope.
• 27:38
  Em: It could be done in a way that didn't feel exploitative.
• 27:40
  Peta: Mm.
• 27:41
  Em: 'cause I know that there's, there are instances of photography campaigns and stuff that try to like kind of go, let's go to like an estate, a council estate in London and do like our fashion shoot here because we want that like, edgy look.
• 27:59
  Em: Um,
• 28:00
  Peta: Zoolander, um, yeah.
• 28:03
  Em: and that.
• 28:04
  Em: That feels exploitative of the space that you're in.
• 28:08
  Em: Um, but yeah, I would want, I would imagine that there would be a positive impact in perhaps being able to shape, shape realistically, try and represent the way that culture actually looks and like highlight all of the positives that actually do exist in all of the different levels that we have.
• 28:33
  Em: And Sure.
• 28:35
  Em: Aspiration can play a role in some of it.
• 28:38
  Em: Like, it, it, you don't want people to like completely ignore having dreams or like drive or, but I think there is, I don't know, there's, there's something in like recognizing and valuing.
• 28:53
  Em: What is going on in the rest of the world?
• 28:55
  Em: I think that's why like adolescents really hit a few weeks ago, or like last month or whenever it was that it came out two months ago now, like.
• 29:10
  Em: It felt very representative and it started a dialogue of like what could be changed.
• 29:15
  Em: And it wasn't necessarily positive, but at least it was like, oh, we can bring this into culture and try and see what can be done about a specific problem.
• 29:28
  Em: But yeah, I don't know if I'm going anywhere specific with that, but I think it feels good.
• 29:36
  Peta: no, that's fine.
• 29:37
  Peta: I think that, um.
• 29:39
  Peta: The, the political and like social polarization thing.
• 29:43
  Peta: One of, I think one of the most pernicious parts of it from my perspective that was a lot of Ps, um, is that it feels like envy and jealousy are being played on quite a lot, and that advertising and culture and media and everything that we've talked about.
• 30:08
  Peta: In terms of that, um, aspiration and idealistic artistic picture, that plays a huge part in that, in that jealousy and in that kind of envy.
• 30:22
  Em: Yeah.
• 30:23
  Peta: Because in the same way as you measure as an individual or as a family, you measure your success or your kind of.
• 30:33
  Peta: Pay packet or anything like that by the people who are around you, the people who you see on a regular basis.
• 30:40
  Peta: Um, and I say that as someone who, um, who's, so when my eldest, um.
• 30:47
  Peta: Started school, he started at the local primary school.
• 30:50
  Peta: Um, and we were surrounded by people who lived around us in very normal houses, very normal situations.
• 30:57
  Peta: And then when he got to year one and started struggling, before we knew that he was autistic, we made the decision, um, to move him to a private school and then ended up surrounded by a whole different kind of, not a whole different type of people.
• 31:15
  Peta: Because like they're, they're adorable.
• 31:17
  Peta: And like the, the parents that were, and the families that we met there were still like, still amazing friends with, but their lifestyles and their houses and their, and their pay packets were incredibly different.
• 31:29
  Peta: You measure your success and how well you are doing in life and, and how kind of content you are based on the people who are around you on a regular basis.
• 31:39
  Em: Yeah.
• 31:41
  Peta: And because we live in such a media saturated world now.
• 31:45
  Peta: Because we are, we are not just watching like four channels of television.
• 31:48
  Peta: We're scrolling on Instagram and seeing aspirational content.
• 31:52
  Peta: We're seeing those adverts in on tube stations and in magazines and on television and on our phones.
• 32:00
  Peta: Um, we are constantly confronted with lifestyles that are.
• 32:07
  Peta: Usually several levels above kind of where we are.
• 32:12
  Peta: And because we see it around us, we assume that that's where everybody else is.
• 32:18
  Peta: And so we are not doing as well as we should be, that we are the ones who are not the norm.
• 32:23
  Peta: We are the ones who are kind of, um.
• 32:26
  Peta: Outside of the usual and everything else that we're seeing is it's completely normal.
• 32:31
  Peta: Um, so when you've got those, those adverts with those sofas in the huge clean rooms, when you've got the, the influencer Instagram content with like unboxing bags and bags of like expensive clothes or when you've got all these, all these different things, um.
• 32:51
  Peta: And you see that all the time, you assume that you are not doing as well as you should be.
• 32:57
  Peta: Um, and therefore you are some way being, you're somehow being taken for a ride.
• 33:03
  Peta: And bad actors who want to take that and use it for their own political and power game can tap into that and go, you are being screwed over.
• 33:14
  Em: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Peta: Um, whereas actually that's not the reality at all.
• 33:18
  Em: No, no.
• 33:21
  Em: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Em: That's such a, that's such a good point about how the community around you helps you anchor where you perceive yourself to be.
• 33:33
  Em: Then yeah, as we've opened up the world to the internet, we get to, and the way that social media just runs, like we get to see into all of these like different, different communities, different worlds.
• 33:47
  Em: We feel part of it.
• 33:48
  Peta: Mm-hmm.
• 33:49
  Em: And it doesn't necessarily represent reality.
• 33:53
  Peta: No.
• 33:54
  Em: It's it's reality in its like extreme forms.
• 33:58
  Em: Um, but yeah.
• 34:01
  Em: The normal day to day like doesn't, I guess because it feels a little bit more mundane, doesn't feel as quite as interesting or spark everyone's curiosity as much.
• 34:13
  Em: 'cause you're like, oh, that's just my life.
• 34:15
  Em: Um, yeah.
• 34:18
  Em: And the people do definitely take advantage of it by kind of going, oh, look like you are being left out.
• 34:27
  Peta: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Peta: Yeah.
• 34:28
  Peta: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Peta: And then you start, yeah.
• 34:30
  Peta: You start feeling like you have to set yourself or that you are being set against those, those people from like, from a different class or those people who are doing better than you because they're the ones, they're the reason that you are not, yeah, you are not doing so well or, or you come at it from the other end and.
• 34:47
  Peta: And someone decides that immigrants are the people that you should blame.
• 34:51
  Peta: Like the idea is that like your situation is not enough and therefore somebody else is to blame.
• 34:57
  Peta: I'm not that I'm saying like I know that we are, that we're in a, we're in a place where there are a huge amount of people in this country who are struggling greatly.
• 35:06
  Peta: I'm not saying that they should all kind of, they still be content because everybody with those big sofas is lying.
• 35:11
  Peta: I'm just, yeah.
• 35:12
  Peta: It's just like we have a skewed version of what.
• 35:18
  Peta: A normal life looks like, I
• 35:20
  Em: Yeah.
• 35:21
  Em: Yeah, we do.
• 35:22
  Em: Especially now, and I think that's why it feels important to, sure, maybe like have the, have representation with people working in the industry, but to actually like shape, shape the way that we visualize stuff.
• 35:41
  Em: Because I think if people can see themselves and recognize, oh yeah, that is my reality, and we are seen, and that is, that is what life is like, then it doesn't feel so like you're in competition with the world
• 35:55
  Peta: Yeah.
• 35:57
  Peta: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 35:58
  Em: because that's shit.
• 35:59
  Peta: Yes.
• 36:00
  Peta: Very exhausting and, and frustrating, and you're never gonna win because somebody will always have a bigger sofa than you.
• 36:07
  Peta: Um, how are you trying to do things differently At Cari?
• 36:15
  Em: So I think if we were, so we are a really small team.
• 36:23
  Em: It's, it's literally just me and my co-founder and we did have a junior designer, but she has recently found another job.
• 36:29
  Em: So I'm happy to like, to support her on her journey.
• 36:33
  Em: Um, but I think.
• 36:36
  Em: Going forwards, I'd want to have those voices present in the room when it comes to like making creative decisions.
• 36:45
  Em: I'd want, as you went to your son's school, like I'd want to be able to go to like, I don't know, local schools in the area and be like, Hey.
• 36:55
  Em: This is a thing that you can do.
• 36:57
  Em: Let's figure out what the back path into the industry is.
• 37:00
  Em: So you don't have to go to university and spend shit loads of money on you
• 37:04
  Peta: indeed.
• 37:06
  Em: because that is like a huge blocker.
• 37:09
  Em: Um, and then just I think with our clients trying to challenge some of the perceived bubbles that they might exist in.
• 37:20
  Em: But to be fair, a lot of our clients are in.
• 37:24
  Em: Very positive spaces trying to support everyday people.
• 37:29
  Em: So I think most of them get it, which I'm very happy that we have that.
• 37:36
  Em: But if anybody were to come our way and be like, oh, we wanna charge like shitloads of money for this one thing that feels very like isolated and only applicable to.
• 37:48
  Em: Demographic.
• 37:49
  Em: I'd be like, Hmm, what can we do to change this?
• 37:54
  Peta: I mean, there is also like, even if you are the, the most, um, principled, heart-based, purpose-driven founder in the world like you are, when you are seeing these are the things that bigger brands are trying and they're, and they're working for them, there is a massive pressure to go, I, uh, surely we should be advertising in this way, or we should be positioning in this way, or like, so yeah, it takes.
• 38:22
  Peta: I think it takes quite a lot of confidence in yourself and in your, and in your values to go, no, we're gonna, we're gonna be different.
• 38:31
  Peta: We're gonna buck the trend, even if it means we might make slightly less money.
• 38:34
  Em: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Em: Yeah.
• 38:36
  Em: And like.
• 38:39
  Em: Comes down to defining what success actually means for you really, rather than kind of
• 38:44
  Peta: Yeah.
• 38:46
  Em: prescribing to what society has said is success.
• 38:52
  Em: Um, it takes a while to get to the point to challenge that and like figure out your path in it, but I think it's always worth doing.
• 38:59
  Em: Sorry, peach is squeaky.
• 39:03
  Peta: Oh, but adorable.
• 39:09
  Peta: Aw.
• 39:10
  Em: Is a sausage dog.
• 39:11
  Peta: So Sausage Jug is my daughter's favorite animal in the whole entire world.
• 39:16
  Em: Oh really?
• 39:17
  Peta: she's absolutely obsessed with them.
• 39:19
  Peta: Um, and we'll chase them down the street.
• 39:21
  Peta: I mean, she's sick, so she can get away with something like that.
• 39:23
  Em: Yeah.
• 39:23
  Peta: can't.
• 39:27
  Peta: So I'm not gonna tell her that I've spoken to a sausage dog today because she'll be really cross with me.
• 39:33
  Peta: Okay.
• 39:33
  Peta: So for, um, for the people listening to this podcast, many of whom, um, run their own businesses in purpose-driven spaces, um, what can they do to combat in their own little kind of circle, um, some of this polarization?
• 39:53
  Peta: Um.
• 39:55
  Peta: In a direct or indirect way, um, or kind of, yeah, find more diversity in the ways that they're, that they're advertising themselves or branding themselves.
• 40:07
  Em: I'm gonna go in a bit of like a rogue.
• 40:10
  Em: Direction.
• 40:11
  Peta: Excellent.
• 40:11
  Em: Well, not really.
• 40:13
  Peta: that sounds great.
• 40:14
  Em: I don't, I don't think it's like anything that you like it, that say, if you come from a working class background, you already know what it's like.
• 40:23
  Em: You see your family that way.
• 40:24
  Em: You see what the creative industry is like.
• 40:26
  Em: You probably are doing this weird dance in between both worlds, where you are kind of sitting on this weird fence looking both directions going, oh God, how do I unify this?
• 40:36
  Peta: Yep.
• 40:36
  Em: Um, but if you are from.
• 40:40
  Em: One of the average backgrounds that most of people in our industry actually do come from.
• 40:45
  Em: You have like, well, like a good heart and like great intentions, and you would actually like to understand what it's like.
• 40:53
  Em: Get involved with local communities, go to those schools like.
• 40:58
  Em: We've got a community garden here.
• 41:00
  Em: We sometimes go and help out with the people gardening it if we know what our neighbors are like in this area.
• 41:06
  Em: But if you don't live in an area like this, then maybe go to your closest one and try and get involved, meet people, find out what it's like.
• 41:16
  Em: Like community is informative.
• 41:21
  Em: You get to see all the good and the bad.
• 41:23
  Peta: Yeah.
• 41:25
  Em: And from, from the outside perspective, then you open up your own internal world and you open up your own experience to kind of go, this is how I, how I would like to integrate this into the work that I do.
• 41:38
  Em: This is the perspective that I want to take.
• 41:40
  Em: This is how I want to serve, not just people who look like me, but other people.
• 41:46
  Em: So I think it would be not staying in your bubble and going and.
• 41:52
  Em: Exploring and just seeing what you come across and being scared of it either.
• 41:57
  Em: 'cause there's so much like greatness to be met with when like we, we know all of our neighbors in this like council block that we live in and we know like the carpenter who lives on the docks like near us, like it is just getting involved in knowing who's around or get a dog and go walk around Those.
• 42:20
  Peta: Go get a Sausage talk
• 42:22
  Em: People talk to you?
• 42:25
  Peta: six.
• 42:27
  Em: Hundred percent.
• 42:29
  Em: Well, like, you know, I'm sure you have it with kids just speaking to the other adults at, at the schools that you go to.
• 42:37
  Em: Like I'm sure you get to like see all types of people in that world, which
• 42:44
  Peta: Yes.
• 42:45
  Peta: I mean, we're all exhausted, but still
• 42:48
  Em: Common ground, we're all
• 42:50
  Peta: very common ground.
• 42:50
  Peta: Yeah.
• 42:54
  Em: Yeah, I, I take that perspective, like open up your worldview a little bit and not be so stuck in like a phone, but in actual reality.
• 43:04
  Peta: brilliant.
• 43:05
  Em: What would you say from your background?
• 43:08
  Peta: What would I say?
• 43:09
  Em: Hmm.
• 43:10
  Peta: Um, I think that, yeah, jumping off your phone and going and looking around at the real world is really important.
• 43:18
  Peta: Um, I think being prepared to have conversations with and listen to people who.
• 43:30
  Peta: I don't agree with you about stuff, and it's one of my like things that I bang on about have done since the beginning of this podcast, um, is that if you only ever talk to people who agree with you, then, I mean, it's a similar thing.
• 43:43
  Peta: Like you are stuck.
• 43:44
  Peta: You are stuck in that bubble.
• 43:46
  Peta: Um, and, and not only is that not great for you, but also if you are, if you have a movement or a way of thinking, um.
• 43:56
  Peta: That you want to, that you want to further, um, then you are never gonna do that by staying in, by staying in your bubble and only talking to people who agree with you.
• 44:06
  Peta: Like movements don't grow when they, when they're looking inwards and they don't, and they don't grow.
• 44:11
  Peta: When every time you meet someone and get into a conversation with them and find out that they disagree with you about something, you then go, oh, well you're a fascist.
• 44:19
  Peta: And then walk away like.
• 44:23
  Peta: That's not helpful
• 44:24
  Em: Yeah.
• 44:25
  Peta: to anybody.
• 44:26
  Peta: Um, so I think that my my addition to, to kind of what, to what you said about going out and talking in your, and like experiencing your community is to be prepared to find people who disagree with you on a whole bunch of stuff.
• 44:44
  Peta: Um, and to remember that that should not be, that should not be a reason to.
• 44:51
  Peta: To stop that conversation or to stop that relationship.
• 44:54
  Peta: Like everybody has their boundaries and everybody has their limits.
• 44:56
  Peta: And I'm, I'm not saying that you should be in a situation, um, and give the time of day to somebody who is, who is being kind of like deliberately damaging or, or racist or any of those things.
• 45:10
  Peta: And if you are of an identity that is more vulnerable, I'm not saying that you should be putting yourself in a dangerous position at all,
• 45:15
  Em: Yeah.
• 45:16
  Peta: but, um, I think we're a lot.
• 45:20
  Peta: We're often too quick to go, oh, you think that some of the things that the conservatives did were all right, therefore I can't talk to you anymore?
• 45:34
  Peta: Or Yeah.
• 45:35
  Peta: Or you think that like, I don't know.
• 45:38
  Peta: You don't think, I'm trying to think of a non, there.
• 45:42
  Peta: There are so many very controversial examples at the moment, like, because,'cause there are some horrible things going on around the world, but.
• 45:48
  Em: I think, I think just approaching people with curiosity.
• 45:50
  Peta: Yeah.
• 45:51
  Peta: Yeah.
• 45:51
  Peta: And I think that there's all, especially when you, especially when you come from a working class background in the u in the US or, or in the uk, I think, um, you will often, you will often find yourself in conversations with people who maybe did not have the same educational privileges and opportunities that you might have had.
• 46:13
  Em: Yeah.
• 46:14
  Peta: Um.
• 46:15
  Peta: That means sometimes that they are more susceptible to a lot of the propaganda and ideology and bad actors who have been rife over the last few years.
• 46:27
  Peta: Um, I don't think that we're in a position now where you can blame people for the things that they believe,
• 46:35
  Em: No.
• 46:35
  Peta: because until, you know why they believe them and how they got to that point,
• 46:39
  Em: Yeah.
• 46:40
  Peta: um.
• 46:41
  Peta: The only way that you can find that out is by, is by listening to them without shutting them down the moment they say something that you find remotely objectionable.
• 46:49
  Peta: Um, so yeah, that would be, that would be my, my answer to the
• 46:54
  Em: Yeah.
• 46:55
  Em: Yeah, that's totally fair.
• 46:56
  Em: It kind of reminds me, so I used to volunteer for Shout the Crisis text line, and, um, one thing that I have taken away from that is to never ask why, like, it sounds really interrogative.
• 47:11
  Em: Um, but to ask what, what about this thing made you feel that way?
• 47:17
  Peta: Yep.
• 47:18
  Em: Like, yeah, if you want to get into a conversation, it might be a little bit, uh, like divisive with someone and you want to explore what, what someone's thinking might have been.
• 47:31
  Em: Do I ask why I ask for?
• 47:33
  Peta: I like that.
• 47:35
  Peta: That's very cool.
• 47:37
  Peta: I'm gonna use that
• 47:38
  Em: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Em: Very helpful.
• 47:40
  Em: If someone is feeling, um, uh, like suicidal,
• 47:45
  Peta: Yeah,
• 47:46
  Em: You jump in and you go, so tell me what, what, what's help?
• 47:49
  Em: What's led you to
• 47:50
  Peta: yeah, yeah.
• 47:51
  Em: as way more neutral?
• 47:53
  Peta: Yes.
• 47:54
  Peta: No, I love, that was pretty cool.
• 47:56
  Peta: Cool.
• 47:57
  Peta: We've reached the end of our time, um, as much as it would be lovely to chat to you and Peach for a while, but, um, if people are, um, if you wanna get in touch with you, if they wanna find out more about what Careli Studios kind of does, how do they get in touch with you?
• 48:11
  Peta: Mm-hmm.
• 48:12
  Em: So you can find our website, which is just Carelli Studio.
• 48:18
  Em: Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, uh, Emelia, Carelli Reed, and.
• 48:25
  Em: I might.
• 48:25
  Em: I'm the only one of me, so I'm fairly easy to
• 48:27
  Peta: Excellent.
• 48:28
  Peta: Me.
• 48:29
  Peta: It's useful.
• 48:33
  Em: Yeah, that would be it.
• 48:34
  Em: In terms of finding us.
• 48:36
  Em: Did you ask something else
• 48:38
  Peta: I.
• 48:40
  Em: what that's.
• 48:44
  Peta: No, it's all good.
• 48:45
  Peta: Excellent.
• 48:45
  Peta: Cool.
• 48:46
  Peta: Um, yes, everybody should go and find, um, and, and Elli and everything that they, yeah, everything they do.
• 48:53
  Peta: Um, some very interesting posts on LinkedIn recently that you should go and check out, um, and all the, yeah, all the ways of finding her around the show notes.
• 49:03
  Peta: So you can, um, have a look at those if you didn't have a pen because you were doing the laundry or driving.
• 49:08
  Peta: Um, but thank you so much for, um, coming and chatting with me.
• 49:12
  Peta: It was, um, yeah, it's been an absolute joy.
• 49:15
  Em: Thank you so much as well.
• 49:17
  Em: Can I add one more thing?
• 49:18
  Peta: Oh, you can, yes.
• 49:19
  Peta: Do.
• 49:20
  Em: Um, I look like on a bit of a side quest to what we're doing at Carelli, uh, of course we're still working with like purpose driven brands, but we've noticed that there's like a disparity between, um.
• 49:34
  Em: Women who run startups who are looking for investment and them getting funded.
• 49:39
  Em: So we're looking to try and solve that problem.
• 49:41
  Em: So if anybody wants to talk to me about that, I would love to talk to them too.
• 49:44
  Peta: I'm sure there will be lots of people who will be interested.
• 49:51
  Em: Thank you.