Latest / The Prompt / > Is persuasion becoming a lost art? — Kelly Urban

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> Is persuasion becoming a lost art? — Kelly Urban · The Prompt

0:01
Thanks so much of Persuasion. It is about confidence.
0:04
Loved the show Succession. There's a point when Logan Roy
0:06
is talking to Kendall and he's basically like you read all
0:09
these business books and like think you understand management.
0:12
The only thing you need to know about leadership is it's whoever
0:14
can command the room. It's true.
0:16
And a lot of that, it's not command with a heavy-handed way.
0:19
It's about presence and a lot of that it's about confidence.
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I think that's a skill set that you earn and learn with years
0:26
behind you. Every day we're communicating
0:28
more than ever. Text messages, Slack messages,
0:31
voice memos, slide decks, and E mounts.
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And now with AI, creating those messages is almost effortless.
0:39
So why does it feel harder than ever to actually influence
0:43
people? Are we mistaking that polished
0:45
language for genuine persuasion? And what actually makes someone
0:49
stop the scroll or listen and trust and ultimately say yes?
0:59
Welcome to The Prompt, a podcast about the questions shaping the
1:02
future. Before anyone agrees on the
1:04
answers, I'm your host, Rachel Truer, CMO Demand Base.
1:08
Each episode we'll explore the ideas, tensions and hot takes
1:12
shaping what comes next for brands, businesses, and the
1:15
people within them. Today's prompt is is persuasion
1:19
becoming a lost art? I'm joined by Kelly Urban, CMO
1:23
at Maui Jim and formerly VP of global media relations,
1:26
influencer marketing and social media, GoPro.
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Throughout her career, Kelly has built brands that don't just
1:31
earn attention, they create authentic connection, turning
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users into champions. We'll explore what it takes to
1:39
develop a voice that's unmistakable your own, and how
1:41
to move past AI slot and create passion and persuasion in a
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place where technology is rapidly changing the playing
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field. Welcome, Kelly.
1:51
Let's dive in. Very, very glad to be here.
1:54
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, likewise.
1:56
Thanks for joining us. So, Kelly, when you look at how
2:00
people communicate today in your career or even in your personal
2:03
life compared to 10 years ago, what do you think's changed the
2:07
most? I feel like with this one
2:09
question alone, we could probably spend the whole time
2:11
together. I really do think about this
2:14
from a business perspective and a personal perspective, even
2:17
though they're very integrated. So from a marketing and a
2:20
business perspective, when I think about the thing that's
2:22
different, it's getting distribution for your message
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used to be much more challenging, right?
2:28
So when I think about starting my career in PR or advertising,
2:33
it was like getting the word out.
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The distribution of what you wanted to say was the effort, it
2:39
was the work. Now I think the thing that's
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changed is you're vying for attention.
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So you can distribute all you want.
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Anybody can make a piece of content, put it out on social
2:49
media or a website and potentially reach a global
2:52
audience. But what you are now trying for
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is to get people to stop scrolling and to pay attention.
3:00
And I think that's something that's changed a lot like in the
3:04
last 10 years. And then from an interpersonal
3:07
perspective, this also ties into the business.
3:09
So much more of our communication was done in real
3:12
life, over the phone, in meetings, at dinners.
3:15
And you know, all of us have gone more digital in our
3:18
communications. And I think that's really
3:21
changed in that you're missing a lot of the non verbal cues.
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You're not able to see this, right?
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Like my facial expression, my hand gestures, like you can tell
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so much about a way that someone is communicating when you're
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doing it in real life. And so as we become more
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digital, think some of that nuance, some of that context is
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missing from the way that we communicate both in our personal
3:44
relationships and in and in business as well.
3:46
And it's not a bad thing, right? Like these are just changes and
3:51
we're evolving and figuring out how to navigate.
3:54
I mean, I loved what you said in your intro, which is like, we're
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asking the questions that no one has the answers to yet.
3:59
And we probably won't have the answers to them because it's not
4:02
a fixed, it's not a fixed problem.
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It's just something that we're adapting to in real time.
4:07
Yeah. Do you think it was the phone's
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fault, the iphone's fault, or the AI fault?
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Or do you think they just kind of merge together at this point
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to make everything distracting? I mean, I think it's a little
4:18
bit of everything. If you asked people who like
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when the Internet first became the Internet, right?
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And it was like, this is going to change everything and it's
4:26
going to ruin the way that we work it.
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Like everybody has these. I think they're like these
4:30
innate sometimes, like resistance to something that's
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going to be different. And this like fear that it's
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going to be the thing that undermines everything that we've
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known before. But what's nice now is we have
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this historical perspective that that's not the case as long as
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you can adapt. So did the phone ruin anything?
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No, I mean, when we think about all the ways that our lives have
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improved because of the availability of the Internet,
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having a computer in your pocket.
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Now with AI, there's benefits that are undeniable, but there's
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also things that I think common sense wise and interpersonally,
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we have to be aware of and like having these conversations about
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to make sure that it doesn't, you know, swing too far.
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I went, this was a million years ago.
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I drove cross country with my sister from New Hampshire to
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California. And we use like physical maps,
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physical maps on our lap with a highlighter to like figure out
5:26
how to get from New Hampshire to California.
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And now we're like, how did we, how do we know where to stay?
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How do we know where hotels were?
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How do we know where the restaurants were?
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Like these things that at the time, it just was the way that
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they were, and now they seem like impossibly challenging.
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And why would you make it that hard on yourself when you can
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just use maps and get yourself there?
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So I don't love framing things as good or bad because they're
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not. It's just different and we have
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to learn how to evolve with it. And there's kind of the two
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dimensions, I think for marketing leader like yourself,
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there's the one dimension, which is the, like you mentioned, the
6:00
interpersonal side, and then the other dimension of cutting
6:03
through the noise and actually reaching audiences.
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How do you reach an audience? How do you stop the scroll?
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What have you seen work out there, Kelly?
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Yeah, if I had the answer to that, like I could retire,
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right. If there, if there was a perfect
6:15
formula, marketing would be a far different job.
6:17
I think the thing that I really try to challenge myself, my
6:21
team, the organization that I work within is how to resist the
6:26
pressure to just be reactionary. So I think that there is, I
6:32
think we all feel it again, personal and business.
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There is this like anxiousness every day in I have to keep up.
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I need to know every single thing that's happening.
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And like it can create this momentum where a brand loses its
6:48
vision, loses its purpose, forgets about its core brand
6:52
values, and just starts like shooting stuff off or out into
6:56
the universe with the idea that something will stick.
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And once that something sticks, then we'll have a direction that
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we can go in, at least for a little while.
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And resisting that urge as a marketer is very difficult.
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And I think there's also that balance between you don't want
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to be so committed that you don't have the ability to pivot
7:18
or respond quickly in the case that something comes up.
7:21
Like that perfect cultural or pop cultural or media moment
7:25
where your brand has the opportunity to do something fast
7:28
and have a really interesting voice in the conversation.
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Like you can't be so stuck, for lack of a better word, that you
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can't do that. But you also have to resist,
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resist that impulse to constantly try new things that
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might be outside of like the core of your brand.
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I think that the brands that I feel like that are being the
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most impactful and the most successful, at least for me
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personally, are the ones where I feel they show up consistently
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all the time. Like when, whenever they speak,
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whatever they share, whatever new initiative they announce or
8:04
partnership that they they announce or whatever, like it
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feels like 100% that makes sense for them.
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And even if they're trying something like clever and
8:15
different, you're like, that's clever and different, but it's
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totally in, in the wheelhouse of who you are and, and how you
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show up to your consumer. And I think that that's the
8:24
thing that people are really looking for right now.
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Is that like authenticity? It's that I know a little bit of
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like predictability, but not in a negative way.
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Just I want to feel really comfortable and confident that
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the attention that I'm giving, whether that's to a creator or a
8:42
brand or a band or an author, like whatever it is, that it's
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going to be something that they feel like they can go to and be
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like, OK, like I'm getting what I expected, but not in a way
8:55
that feels unexciting. These are really hard things to
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achieve. Like when even as I'm giving you
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this answer, when I'm thinking about threading that needle,
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it's incredibly challenging. It's really, really challenging
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to get right. I love.
9:07
The way you're describing driving it though, the word that
9:09
that comes to mind when I think about that and it and I love
9:12
that we're you're more of AB to CC MO because it's sometimes
9:16
easier to relate to that concept in AB to C fashion.
9:20
But there's something the word that I I thought about is
9:23
alluring. There's something really
9:24
alluring about a brand that's able to do that.
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And it could be AB to B brand, a really solid B to B brand that's
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figured out how to do that does become quite alluring and has
9:35
this kind of Halo effect around them versus every other B2B
9:39
brand that's either not doing it well or kind of trying lots of
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different things like you mentioned.
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And I think it's so relevant for this topic around persuasion,
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right? And how, you know, this morning
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I was telling my, I have a six year old son that I was doing a
9:53
podcast today. I needed him to be quiet and,
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and he said, what's it about? He listens to a bunch of
9:58
podcasts for kids. And I said, well, it's about the
10:02
art of persuasion. And he said, what's persuasion?
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And I said, well, you know, like if you're persuading someone,
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and I said, you know what that word means.
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And he said, yeah, bribing. And I said, well, I don't know
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that it's always bribing. It could be bribing.
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I said that's a dimension maybe of persuasion, but I think
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persuasion has a lot more to it. And to your point, like
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threading that needle of persuasion is really difficult.
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And you mentioned growing your teams and pointing them in the
10:26
right direction. What skills do you see in your
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teams that are able to develop that kind of judgement or
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ability to think about how to create persuasion and the allure
10:37
of a brand? Yeah, again, a meaty A meaty
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question that doesn't have a super clear or formulaic answer.
10:44
But what I have found in all of my years is that the more you
10:48
allow your team to have a voice and to feel that their ideas not
10:55
only are being heard, but that they're getting the opportunity
10:59
to impact the direction, the decisions and the next steps.
11:02
Like, if they see themselves in the idea, the strategy, the
11:06
execution, they're so much more confident in either persuading
11:12
other people within the organization to understand what
11:15
we're doing and why we're doing it.
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This is why we're investing in this.
11:18
But it also gives them a confidence.
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And I think so much of Persuasion is about is about
11:22
confidence, right? I loved the show Succession.
11:25
I mean, absolutely loved it. And there's a point when Logan
11:28
Roy is talking to Kendall and he's basically like, yeah, you
11:31
read all these business books and like you think you
11:33
understand management. The only thing you need to know
11:35
about leadership is it's whoever can command the room.
11:38
And I was just like, I mean, so it's true.
11:42
And a lot of that it's, and it's not command with a heavy-handed
11:45
way or like a, you know, a dictator way.
11:48
It's just that it's about presence.
11:51
And a lot of that is about confidence.
11:52
And I think when you can get, I'll say younger people only
11:56
because I think that's a skill set that you earn and learn with
12:01
years behind you. But I think as a leader, the
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more that you can give your team the opportunity to show up and
12:09
insert themselves into what you're doing, the more
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persuasive they're going to be able to be.
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I started my career in PR and on the agency side.
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And I remember the owner of our agency saying, like, if I have
12:22
you in the room, this was specifically related to like a
12:25
client meeting or a new business pitch.
12:27
And he would say, if I have you in the room, it's because I
12:29
believe you have something to say.
12:31
So don't just sit there. You were expected to say
12:33
something. And I think when you're newer in
12:35
your career, it's hard to feel like you're scared to speak up.
12:38
You're scared to be like, I have an opinion.
12:40
Or I think we could do this and but learning that skill set I
12:45
think is really, really important ultimately to personal
12:48
development, business development, and also your
12:51
ability to feel that you can persuade someone to see your
12:56
side of things or come around to your perspective.
12:58
I love the concept of confidence in this and its relationship to
13:03
persuasion. And I'm curious, how have you
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seen AI in particular, you know, conversation AI or gentic
13:09
motions affect kind of these newer entrants into the
13:13
workforce. Do you think it helps them be
13:15
more confident to have that in their back pocket?
13:17
Or do you think it creates a situation where maybe they feel
13:20
like they have to go to AI for the answers?
13:22
I think it's precarious. I think the inflection point is,
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are you going to AI first or are you going to AI last?
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So I think we are at a point right now where there is a risk
13:35
of, I have this assignment, oh, I have this e-mail, oh, I have
13:39
this presentation. My first step is to go to AI and
13:43
say I have a presentation. It's about this.
13:46
Please help me develop the flow or help me create my thesis for
13:50
it versus here's my presentation.
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This is what I'm trying to accomplish.
13:55
This is the audience that is going to receive it.
13:57
Can you please help me refine it or point out redundancies or
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help me get it from 25 slides to 15?
14:07
I think those two things are very, very different in how AI
14:12
can help build a foundation for confidence.
14:16
Because if you start going to it first, I think we're that's
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where that's where I think we will get into trouble is that
14:21
people will lose the ability to have independent thoughts, trust
14:25
their own ideas. Like it just sort of puts a halt
14:29
on that like initiative to think the difficult things and be
14:33
creative and challenge yourself to sit in front of your computer
14:36
with a blank deck and be like, what do I want to say?
14:39
Like, what do I think about this?
14:41
So again, like, I really don't, I, I never want to be like, AI
14:46
is bad, you know, because it's not, it's just going to be about
14:50
the way that we use it. And I think for the younger
14:54
generations coming into work, they're going to have to do the
14:58
self regulating of being like, OK, I'm not going to let this do
15:02
my thinking for me. I'm still going to think and
15:06
then figure out how AI can help me refine that.
15:10
I think that cycle that you just described is what ultimately
15:13
builds that confidence to then become, you know, a more
15:16
communicator. Yeah, yeah.
15:18
I think one other thing that I would like to say is for as long
15:22
as I can remember, one of my things I've said as a manager is
15:27
like, you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable.
15:29
And I think so much of where we're at right now in a digital
15:34
world is we've had the opportunity to disassociate
15:37
ourselves and put a screen between us for things that feel
15:41
uncomfortable, right? Like if you, I mean, you can do
15:44
it over text, you can do it over Slack, you can do it over like
15:46
there's a million ways that you can separate yourself from
15:51
having to have a personal interaction with someone where
15:55
you don't agree, whether that's business or personal.
15:57
And confidence is so much based on, OK, I've felt this feeling
16:01
before. I felt this anxiety about having
16:03
a challenging conversation. I've gone into a meeting where I
16:06
don't have good news to share. I have a boss or a Co worker
16:09
that we don't have a lot in common and we've got to figure
16:12
out how to engage with one another.
16:14
Losing that skill set I think is the thing.
16:16
That's where I think we could potentially be putting ourselves
16:19
at a disadvantage. Yeah.
16:20
And I think with the remote work too, that's become such a
16:23
challenge in terms of what happens when the meeting ends.
16:26
Everyone parts into their back into their homes or their
16:31
kitchens always go back to. I've had to kind of learn how to
16:34
manage that myself because as a leader, you're often talking to
16:38
groups of people and it's hard to get, you know, feedback.
16:41
It's hard to get people's reaction on a Zoom call.
16:44
And I do an all hands or something and I'm announcing
16:46
something. And I remember when I started my
16:49
career in B2B tech, I was at Oracle and there was a sales
16:53
leader there who told me he would call every single person
16:57
after the meetings that he had. If it was, you know, a big sales
17:00
pitch, he would call all of the people in the room, whether they
17:02
worked for Oracle or they were a customer side, just to see, hey,
17:06
how did you think the meeting went?
17:07
What did you, what did you feel? What did you learn?
17:09
And so creating those, the touch points, coming back around to
17:12
everyone individually, or at least enough people to kind of
17:15
get that sense of what what's happening, I think has been one
17:19
of the ways that I've learned to measure the temperature of the
17:23
organization. Because otherwise, like you
17:26
said, I mean, people can disagree with you and they're
17:28
off camera and you, you never know, you know, you don't know
17:30
what they're thinking and it can make it difficult.
17:33
It's true and fair. And again, it's not bad that
17:35
there's remote work. It's not bad that a lot is
17:37
getting done over Zoom. But from for the point that
17:39
you're making of how do you like Crowdsource from your team,
17:44
especially internally or even if you're talking to a client and
17:48
honest and real reaction, it's weird to do it, especially when
17:52
you have a large group, right, Because everybody's like, oh,
17:53
someone, someone else will talk. Yeah, or two people start
17:56
talking at the same time and then and that's awkward and
17:58
you're like, no, you go, don't you know?
18:00
Like there's all these things that are barriers to it that I
18:02
think are a little bit different when you're sitting in a room
18:04
together and having that temperature of what your team
18:08
thinks and feels in response to whatever you're sharing is
18:11
really important. So God bless the man who was
18:13
able to pick up the phone and call everybody.
18:16
It's incredible. Yeah, it's one of those things
18:18
you almost have to if he was very extroverted sales leader,
18:21
as a self identifying introvert that presents extroverted by out
18:26
of necessity, I have to really convince myself sometimes that
18:30
that has to happen. I'm curious, you know, we were
18:32
talking earlier about how we both in school had studied
18:36
communication. So hot take here.
18:39
If you could erase one piece of communication advice from every
18:43
leadership book or textbook, what would it be and what would
18:46
you do instead? I am a heart first leader and I
18:49
always have been and that's never going to change.
18:51
And any management book that I have read, a lot of management
18:55
books that I have read discourage that most.
18:58
Like if you want to get ahead in business, here's how to be a
19:00
leader who's pragmatic and databased and connected, but not
19:05
too personally and invested, but not too attached.
19:09
It's confusing if you have a personal relationship with
19:13
someone who you are also supposed to manage.
19:16
And that can get complicated. Like I think a lot of leadership
19:20
books teach you about distancing yourself, especially once you
19:23
get into the senior leadership role.
19:26
And I just like fundamentally disagree with, I just do.
19:28
And I know it's not for everybody, right?
19:30
Like I've worked with leaders who keep themselves very distant
19:33
and I, I don't disrespect them. They're incredible at their job.
19:37
It's just a very different management style for me.
19:40
If it's within your personality and within your comfort zone, I
19:44
really do believe that there is a way to be very personally
19:48
connected to and bonded to your team and your coworkers and
19:53
still be a really effective leader.
19:55
In fact, I think, and I would argue that if you can find that
19:59
magic spot of being very personally connected to your
20:03
team, you will be able to lead in a way that others can't
20:07
because they trust you. They want to do their best work
20:10
for you. They don't want to disappoint
20:13
you. So yeah, I think that's for for
20:15
me, I think there is space in leadership to be very like
20:19
emotionally and like. Heart first in business.
20:22
I think that also really gets at persuasion, right?
20:26
I think there's carrots and sticks.
20:28
And what you're describing is, you know, not quite a carrot,
20:31
but it it does create a certain motivation for people that I
20:34
think that distance doesn't always lend itself to.
20:37
And we're talking about brands earlier and the allure of strong
20:40
brands. I think there is a heart first
20:42
element to a lot of those brands.
20:44
You're at GoPro. When I think of GoPro, I think
20:46
of just these very emotional moments that people were
20:50
achieving lifelong dreams, a great vacation or a challenge
20:55
that they set out to do. And to me, I feel the heart of
20:57
that brand before I, I think of anything else, which may be, you
21:01
know, for a video camera device isn't exactly what you would
21:05
expect. So I, I think that's
21:07
interesting, the duality of both heart first leadership and also
21:09
the heart first brand approach that, you know, clearly
21:12
manifested. There.
21:14
Well, I think what was really interesting, and I'll just speak
21:16
to the GoPro world specifically because I was there for almost
21:20
11 years, I started in 2013 when social media was, I mean, the
21:25
creator economy didn't exist. Social media was just sort of
21:29
becoming a thing. Like YouTube was really at that
21:31
point where content was going directionally.
21:34
But from a GoPro content perspective, the videos that I
21:37
would say we saw were the most successful in views and
21:41
engagement. And the thing that like caught
21:42
everybody's attention was putting people in an environment
21:45
or giving them a perspective that they've never seen before,
21:48
whether that was surfing a wave or a mountain bike or doing a
21:51
massive jump or a skydiver jumping out of a plane, like
21:54
putting them in the moment where it evolved.
21:57
And I would say for probably the last like 5 years of, of GoPro
22:00
videos that performed well was we started talking all the time
22:05
about the reaction. So it became less about what the
22:08
person was doing and more about like people want to see the joy,
22:13
the excitement, they want to hear the like, screams and the
22:16
excitement. Like that was what ended up
22:19
being the content that performed the best.
22:22
So it was a, it was a really interesting shift over like the
22:25
11 years that I was there. And I think the point I'm trying
22:28
to make is we're all seeking that like emotional connection.
22:31
I, I think heart is becoming the thing that keeps people engaged
22:36
and it's what stops them from scrolling.
22:39
And that heart comes from authenticity.
22:41
So getting back, circling all the way back to how are you a
22:45
brand that stays connected to your values and your purpose?
22:48
And you're not just reacting all the time, but you're showing up
22:52
in a way that people feel really good about and connected to.
22:56
And that being the thing that I think is becoming the key to
22:59
effective marketing. I love that.
23:00
Yeah. So I'm curious, we've touched on
23:03
as part of persuasion, you kind of need, you need to get the
23:06
attention, you need to stop the scroll and then you also have to
23:09
have this foundation level of trust.
23:12
And so my question for you is, do you think it's harder right
23:15
now to earn trust or attention? And which one matters more when
23:19
it comes to persuasion? Probably trust.
23:21
So yeah, if I'm going to answer the question, what is harder to
23:24
get right now? I think trust is trust is
23:26
earned, attention can be captured very quickly, but it
23:28
can go away so fast. I mean, right, like that is part
23:32
of the digital world that we're living in, which is you see
23:35
popularity and fame and things that are interesting and they
23:38
come and go so quickly. And I think the whole point of
23:41
trust is that it is something that is earned and kept over an
23:45
extended period of time. So I think it's harder to earn
23:48
trust because it's something that needs to be built and you
23:51
can get attention fast. It's keeping it that's going to
23:53
be difficult. And the others that what I
23:55
haven't really formulated this thought before this moment and
23:58
this question. But what I think is interesting
24:01
is when I think about things that get attention, my first
24:04
thought is it's usually not for good.
24:07
You know, like I think about something that's maybe more
24:10
sensational or did you see this thing that happened or the way
24:14
that this brand didn't do well or the thing that this person
24:18
said that is now all over the Internet because it was
24:21
inappropriate or offended this hot, you know, whatever it is.
24:24
Like when I think about attention, it's not necessarily
24:27
based in good. And that's that's a pretty broad
24:30
statement. It's certainly not true.
24:33
But trust to me feels very good and authentic and honest and
24:37
attention can go either way. Of it, well OK, we're going to
24:39
do a quick lightning round so I'm going to give you 2 options,
24:42
one word answer for each So the future belongs to people with
24:47
better taste or technology. I'm taking too long to answer.
24:51
It's a hot take. I'm going to say technology.
24:53
You're giving the biggest presentation of your career.
24:56
Do you want to be remembered or trusted?
24:58
Remembered. You're trying to change
25:00
someone's mind. Are you going to lead with
25:02
emotion or? Evidence.
25:03
I mean 100% emotion. Yeah, we learned that one.
25:07
Your team wants to use AI to write every customer facing
25:10
message. Are you going to scale faster or
25:13
protect your brand voice? Protect brand Hard known.
25:16
Hard known. You're building a brand that
25:18
should still matter 10 years from now.
25:20
Are you going to stay consistent or keep reinventing?
25:23
Consistent. I love it.
25:24
Kelly, thank you so much for joining me.
25:26
You know, I, I loved our conversation and one thing I'm
25:29
going to be thinking about for a while is just in this world
25:32
where we can generate so much with AI, what sets us all apart
25:36
isn't really so much even that we communicate.
25:38
It's how we communicate and how we move people.
25:41
And I loved the idea of having a heart first LED approach both to
25:46
your, your own communication with your teams and also your
25:49
brand. And then when you were talking
25:51
about just how the brand really creates that trust, it's it's
25:55
the idea that being reactive is not a strategy and creating the
25:59
consistency and showing up where it matters and really having the
26:04
judgement and taste to be able to do that and create that
26:06
allure that helps stop the scroll.
26:09
So I'm going to leave our audience with a prompt to think
26:13
about if AI can write almost anything.
26:16
What's the only thing that you can say with heart that AI
26:20
can't?