Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / HOA Headaches with High Conflict Complaints
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- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hey everybody. Speaker 1 (00:23): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In today's episode, we're going to talk about obsessive compulsive disorder in relation to high conflict situations. Um, we're gonna get down into the nitty gritty of it. What is it? What's it look like? Is it different from high conflict behavior? And, and really most importantly of all, what do you do? But before we get into that, uh, we wanna thank our listeners, you know, for, uh, bearing with us while we took a short break and kind of replayed some older episodes, some of the most popular ones. We were traveling a fair bit on a few continents doing a lot of training. So, uh, thank you for your patience and we're glad you're back. So, a couple of notes. If you have questions about a high conflict situation, send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find all the show notes and links. All right, bill, uh, welcome back Speaker 2 (01:33): Certainly was a fun, a fun month. We just had, Speaker 1 (01:37): We definitely, and we went, uh, we both ended up, or started actually in Scotland where we, um, were, uh, really had the privilege of doing a couple of trainings in Edinburgh and Glasgow for family law attorneys. And, uh, the, and ultimately ended up at the Scottish Parliament, where the, the results of a study, um, shared Parenting Scotland had had done using our New Ways for Families program. So that was really exciting and it was a lot of fun to be there together and all the hard work of going back really to 2008, 2009 when this started to, to formulate in your, your Brain Bill . So, um, that was exciting. And then Bill got to take a little vacation, uh, to celebrate a big birthday and, um, do a cool, I don't know, do you wanna say what you did? Speaker 2 (02:29): My wife and I went on a cruise with a couple other friends around the British Isles, so England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. And so I got to be back in Scotland again as a tourist, uh, the second time. But just an amazing trip. And I have to tell you, we basically had three weeks without rainy weather, which is not at all what we expected. They, they told us that it ranged two outta three days in a lot of the British Isles. Um, but we got an exceptionally, uh, nice treat. So we, we really appreciated that. Speaker 1 (03:06): Yeah. Your timing was, was spot on, I'd say. Speaker 2 (03:09): Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, you went off to Australia from Europe. Uh, tell us a little about that. Speaker 1 (03:17): Yeah, and I, I was, uh, in between Scotland and Australia, I had opportunity to speak at the A F C C conference in Los Angeles, uh, the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts, which was really fun. And then off to Australia where I did about 12 trainings for a variety of groups from Family Law Pathways Network to, um, interrelate Australia administrative tribunals, and, um, ending with a, a neighborhood justice center. So, you know, the, the information really that we, we teach applies everywhere. That's, that's what's kind of, you know, unique about what we do is, is wherever people are located, this, this information is helpful. Speaker 2 (04:01): Problems are very similar, and the solutions are very similar everywhere, which actually makes it easy once people learn what those are. Speaker 1 (04:10): Right? Right. So speaking of that, um, after our, our world travels and recovery , today we're going to talk about O C D, which is a little bit different from, um, our normal talking about the cluster B personality types that we believe kind of underlie the high conflict personality. But there, you know, what is cluster C What is obsessive compulsive disorder? You know, some, some people don't seem to always quite fit the high conflict personality definition, yet we see some of those same behaviors. And you can kind of have that, like what, uh, I don't understand what this is. I know it's different, but I'm not sure what it is. So could it be, you know, obsessive compulsive disorder, obsessive compulsive personality disorder? So let me give you a little scenario Bill, uh, let's say in, in a homeowner's association. So, uh, we had a question come in about this, and it's, uh, an HOA that, that takes care of a and a, a community of about 300 or so, um, uh, units. Speaker 1 (05:18): And there's one particular individual who complains frequently, uh, and seems to just never be satisfied. And, but the difference is, I mean, people are going to complain. We're all going to have complaints of in, in any situation, right? We, if we're living in a, in a community that's managed by H O A, there'll be some who probably never complain. There'll be some who will complain if something truly needs to be addressed. And then there are habitual persistent complainers. And some, probably most in that category would at least qualify for the lower end of the spectrum of a high conflict personality, I would think. But this one is a little bit different, where this person is hyper-focused on the rules. So, as you know, or may not know, you know, an HOA has a set of, of regulations and then there are policies and you know about how long you have until you bring your trash can back in, how long, uh, you know, can you park on the street overnight? Speaker 1 (06:24): Can you have this many guests? Can you build a structure in your backyard? So there's lots of regulations and rules. So this particular individual, instead of kind of rebuffing the rules or striking against the rules, is a rigid follower of the rules and is so demanding that everyone else in the community be held to the strictest standards that those rules have. So, for example, a complaint is made by this individual. It's a big, big problem to this, this person. And, uh, they really want the h o a, uh, compliance managers to enforce the rules to the letter of the law. If it's 24 hours and one minute, it's a violation, they need a letter, they need to be kicked outta the community, whatever, right? Something extreme . So they really are holding the H OA compliance people holding their feet to the fire, and it just never seems to get better no matter what they do. So there it is. Bill, what are your thoughts? Speaker 2 (07:29): Well, two categories. The first is obsessive compulsive disorder, which is different from obsessive compulsive personality disorder. And you mentioned both of them, but it merits talking for a few minutes about what the difference is. A lot of people have heard of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or O C D, and many people even say, I have O C D. And to me the best example of O C D is Jack Nicholson in the movie, I think as good as it gets. Yes. And he has a stack of soap, uh, bars of soap in their packaging beside his sink. And every time he washes his hands, he gets a new bar of soap, takes it outta the package, washes his hands, and throws it away with the package. And so, being really worried about cleanliness, things like that, O C D and, and the D s M, and I'm not teaching people how to diagnose people, but I just want them to see the difference. Speaker 2 (08:36): So in the, in the D S M, it talks about O C D as recurrent and persistent thoughts and repetitive behaviors, and it says a lot more, but just think of those two things that's obsessive compulsive disorder, and it plagues the person. And in many cases, the person suffers alone with that. Um, like Jack Nicholson in his bathroom washing his hands, he also, I recall, was worried about stepping on cracks in the sidewalk. And I don't know about you, but I remember growing up with, you know, if you step on a crack, you make, you break your mother's back, mother's back, . I didn't want to do that, but early on I realized, you know, there's too many cracks in the sidewalk and that couldn't possibly be true . Speaker 1 (09:29): That's, that's a good point. And, and you know, what's, what's fascinating Bill to me is that couple decades ago I was, uh, started dating a guy who was, uh, just wonderful, but he had something to tell me. Like, it's one of those times where you, you, he kept saying, I, I have something that, you know, you may not like me if I tell you this part. So instead of telling me, he showed me the movie as good as it gets with Jack Nicholson. Hmm. And he said, I suffer from this same thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and for him, he'd learned to manage it, but it was still very, uh, could be very debilitating, like needing to, and I know he'd be fine with me talking about this, but checking the stove burners, you know, with his hand over them to make sure the stove was off before he left the house, open the oven door, stick the hand in, make sure it's off, you know, check the locks, everything kind of had to be in, its, it's in this order. Speaker 1 (10:21): And then get to the door and go back to the stove and start again. And that's that repetitive thought. I think you've, you've mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. So he'd have to come back and do it again. And until we sort of worked out, if he saw me put my hand over the burners and then open the oven door and put my hand in, then his brain was satisfied that it was okay and he could leave. It was really fascinating. So not the personality disorder, but just the O C D of this repetitive thoughts, I guess that that kind of can be debilitating for some Speaker 2 (10:54): Yeah. The thoughts and behavior. So let's go to O C P D personality disorder first thing, and I think people listening to our podcast by now understand personality disorders are generally interpersonal disorders. That that's often where it shows up. And so if we look at some of the criteria, cuz I never give everybody enough to try to diagnose somebody, but just to understand some key things, the, some of the criteria is preoccupied with details, rules list, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost. And this, I think comes directly into what you're talking about with a homeowners association. And by the way, I've, I've consulted with and given seminars at several homeowners, uh, groups, which have very similar problem. There's somebody in the community that is obsessed with the rules, but it isn't just, they're obsessed with the rules, they're obsessed with confronting people with the rules and arguing with people about the rules and, and making it an interpersonal conflict. Speaker 2 (12:13): And while they may not be cluster B and may not be preoccupied with blaming others, they clearly are preoccupied with using the rules almost as a, a bludgeon to, you know, to convince other people they're wrong and that they're right. And it's traumatic for everybody. Uh, the person with Ocpd is quite frustrated because what they're doing doesn't work. They're not, they're not really solving a real problem. They're solve, trying to solve a perceived problem, which makes things often worse. But a second is shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion, in other words, is unable to complete a project because there have overly strict standards for the project. Occasionally, I've had some traits of that in my writing because I'm like so concerned to get it right is as I get stuck and don't keep moving forward. Fortunately, I think it's not the personality disorder because I usually overcome it and get my books out in articles and stuff, but there's, and you're aware, aware of it, , that's a big difference. Speaker 2 (13:30): And I go, oh, I'm getting stuck here again. And what's interesting, I remember when I took the, um, the L S A T exam, which you have to take to apply to law schools, the law school admissions test. And I remember right in the middle of that exam, I got totally stuck on one particular question. I probably spent 10 minutes on it and I realized, oh my goodness, I'm obsessive compulsion and, and I'm not gonna do okay if I don't, just forget this question and move on because you're not gonna get everything right. And I did okay, but I think I would've done better if I had just let myself let go. And that's, that's the key. And let me mention Aaron Beck, who, who wrote a book with some other authors on cognitive therapy for personality disorders that they said in that book. Two things you should do if you think You have Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder is always Ask one is, what are you feeling now? Speaker 2 (14:41): Because people with O C P D are preoccupied with external stuff and lose track of what they're feeling now. And the other is, what do you want now? Because it's always about the external structure. What does the structure want? What does the structure require now? And so those two questions I've always found helpful to myself is to say, well, you know, I'm feeling, oh, I'm feeling frustrated. Okay, so instead of trying to fix this thing and find the perfect answer, I need to let myself move on. And that's really helped me. So I'm, I'm pleased to say I usually make my writing deadlines or get short extensions and that, those two questions I often ask myself, what am I feeling now? Oh yeah, don't lose track of that and what do I want now? Oh yeah. It's not about what does the, the structure or the rules want, what do I want that I'm a human being in here. Speaker 2 (15:43): So the treatment for this often involves helping people get in touch with those two things. But it's easy for homeowners associations, other organizations I've heard of, um, scout groups where there's some people that just are, are stuck on the rules and don't let the activities proceed. Things like that. Probably any committee or organization you can think of sometimes attracts someone who gets stuck like this. And the thing is, they're not bad or evil people, they're just stuck themselves. And personality disorders, the person with it isn't getting their needs met cuz what they're doing doesn't work, but they do it harder. And o ccpd is a good example of that. So helping people go, helping people get respect, be appreciated, get empathy, and we need to move forward here. And if you can get them into counseling and some go, um, there's good treatment for this and help them, what do you, what do you want? What are you feeling? And give them strategies to let go, uh, so they can leave the house. Cuz there's a lot of people with O C D that can't lead the house cuz they have to vacuum over and over again. But anyway, back to the rules. And that, that issue is related to the personality and with all the personality disorders, we really have to remember to have empathy for people and that you get more response by not criticizing them, but working with them to change behavior Speaker 1 (17:31): In a personal relationship. You know, you could, uh, you know, maybe a family member or friend you could recommend some, some help maybe, you know, because there is good help now. Um, that that can be very helpful. But what do you do in, if you are that h o a manager who's having this persistent complainer come over and over, uh, come in and and complain again and again, and you can't recommend counseling or medication. Um, I mean maybe you could but it might not go well. So what, how, how do you get someone to, to stop making these complaints and, and let's, you know, I, I think of course we'd always look at, at changing policies and perhaps having a, uh, a form. I'm a big fan of forms that keep, uh, you know, pre provide some, some structure, um, and some really some limitations on, on that. And maybe change a policy to say we accept complaints on the third Thursday of the month, then we review them and get back to you in two weeks. Or yeah, I, I don't know what all, but um, beyond that, what can you do? What other kind of limits can you put in? Because an HOA manager can't handle if you have 300 residents, how do you, you know, spend the majority of your time with one homeowner? Speaker 2 (18:54): The reality is they do end up spending more time with difficult homeowners like this. I think the thing is a combination, you know what we talk about the cars method, connecting, analyzing options, responding to misinformation and setting limits is, is empathizing with the person. Say, you know, you're valued here. You're, you're right, there's some rules we need to pay attention to. But I think also explaining what's the purpose for the rule? That there's, there's something behind the rule that if you become too rigid about the rule, you end up missing the purpose. And it's, I think that's part of something to explain which people may or may not benefit from hearing, but then talk about your options. And I do know one community that was close to finding a reason to force somebody out of the community because they were so obsessive compulsive with their personality and offending significant number of people in the community. Speaker 2 (20:07): So if you say, look, here's the choices, they kind of back off on this or submit it on a form and send it in on Thursdays and also respond to misinformation like no one else is complaining about this. And so you're right, technically speaking there's a rule, but in life we learn that, you know, there's priorities and the priority with this rule, if it becomes a big problem, then we have to deal with it. But the simple tiny rule violation doesn't mean the world has come to a halt and consequences what, you know, we're gonna stop taking your reports or something like that. I mean, I know in court cases you have vexatious litigants if they bring seven, um, meritless hearings to court that they can't file a additional hearings without the approval of a judge. Homeowners associations may want to consider that kind of approach too. Speaker 1 (21:12): I like that. Speaker 2 (21:13): Yeah. So consequences. So connect, analyze options, respond to misinformation and, and how this is out of balance with its purpose. I think that's so, and, and I think like with kids that may have some signs of this, it's important to say, you know, the purpose for this rule is X, y, Z. So don't get stuck on that. Johnny, your brother broke this rule. Um, because he didn't realize he broke it and he's been reprimanded for that. So somehow putting things in perspective, I think seems to help. And of course, counseling, uh, cognitive behavioral therapies have a lot of success with O C D. People can change their behavior, but personality disorders are harder to treat than some of the other mental disorders because they're part of the personality. Depending on how severe it is, you can reign that in, um, to some extent in organizations. Speaker 1 (22:20): So it sounds like an open door policy is not the best idea. Um, and what, what about, uh, I know one H HOA created a policy that the before a complaint can come to the H OA manager, it must come to, they must address it with the other homeowner first. So if you have a complaint against the other homeowner, I, I'm kind of torn with that one because um, you may be getting, you know, some this person harassing other people. And what if it turns into a stalker situation? Is that a possibility? Speaker 2 (22:55): Uh, I know of a case, and it may have been a homeowner's association, there was someone who had been, I don't know what their occupation was, but they'd had a lot of responsibility and then they retired and it was kinda like they were looking for a problem to solve and they started following around people's behavior, other people's, you know, trash cans and lawns, uh, what they had in their window, those kinds of things. And homeowners associations have a lot of rules. So they're kind of susceptible to O C P D people. But yeah, so in a sense they start stalking other people's home owning behavior, which can the community be outraged with them? And that's the thing the community manager wants to do is try to manage the situation and have some limits. And like you said, the open door policy in a way it's good that they know who to go to, but they also need to tone it down. Speaker 2 (24:05): Or the homeowner manager might say, okay, put it in writing and um, I'll take a look at it. And what's interesting is people with obsessive compulsive personality disorder and O C D like to write a lot. And so if you give them a writing assignment that may keep them busy for a while. And let me, oh, let me give you a quick, because we're talking about homeowners association, but let me give you a quick obsessive compulsive example in a family, cuz we have a lot of family people in our followers on the podcast. So when I was in training as a clinical social worker, there was this case, there was a mother of, I think a 12 year old girl. And the mother was highly critical. The 12 year old girl didn't do this right and didn't do that right. And it just became clear she's obsessive compulsive, whether it's disorder or personality disorder. Speaker 2 (25:05): So the psychiatrist who we were consulting with recommended a paradoxical treatment and he said, have the mother for a week write down everything her 12 year old daughter does wrong and put this in a notebook and write down in detail when it was what she did. And so that was the assignment for the mother. Week later, mother comes in to the clinic with her daughter, meet with the mother first and say, so, so how'd the week go? Where's your notes? And she says, you know, I I was just really busy this week and I didn't have time to do it. , of course. And her daughter was doing better . Speaker 1 (25:54): Interesting Speaker 2 (25:55): . So by overdoing it, it kind of unlocked it. In that case, Speaker 1 (26:02): People present us with all kinds of interesting issues to resolve. Right. So in the H OA case, is this person ever going to be satisfied? Like what would eventually get them, um, do you think maybe setting the limit of, of giving a consequence, like you get, uh, seven, seven strikes and you're out. Is there, is there a real possibility of that working or does it depend? Speaker 2 (26:31): It really depends on how severe it is for the person. Because I know of one community that was on the verge of finding a way to evict, I don't what you do with homeowners since they own their own home. But Speaker 1 (26:47): Yeah, it's tricky. Speaker 2 (26:48): They, they were on the verge of something, but in other cases I think they've been able to reign people in and just keep saying, you know, thanks for your help, but you're missing the point here, the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. But I think coming up with some consequence, like, I'm not gonna discuss it with you if you keep coming back, uh, with this or we're gonna have a meeting about you. Just the idea of having a meeting about somebody gets people's attention cuz no one wants there to be a meeting about them. Speaker 1 (27:24): Yeah. Especially if there's some paranoia going on . Speaker 2 (27:27): Right? Right. And that can go with obsessive compulsive disorder doing, there's some overlap, of course, all of the personality disorders, there may be some overlap with another one. So you may have one or two, three sometimes that overlap. Speaker 1 (27:43): And the point is to use the car's method no matter what with everyone, Speaker 2 (27:47): I think. So it's simple. And the idea of analyzing options, it's like if you do this and then consequence, if you do this, this is the consequence. You do that. This is the consequence. You want people to like you. And that's often what O C P D people are trying to earn respect. But what they don't realize is they're sabotaging, earning respect by the way they're going about it. Just like narcissists want respect and they behave in ways that alienate people who don't wanna respect them. And that's, that's one of the characteristics of personality disorders is it's a self-sabotaging behavior. And some people, maybe it's traits not a full-blown disorder can be helped by looking at it that way and go, wait, you're losing friends here. Speaker 1 (28:37): Okay, well we truly hope if, if, uh, if you're involved in a situation like this, that, that this was a helpful conversation and you'll take away some of these helpful tips and, um, have some success. Next week we'll talk about apology quicksand. This is one of our favorite topics. We appreciate you listening and we'd love to have your questions at podcast high conflict institute.com or through our website of high conflict institute.com/podcast. If you tell your friends and colleagues about us, we'd be grateful. We'd love it if you'd leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing the skills and be kind to yourself and others while we all try to find the missing piece. It's all your fault. It's a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.