Latest / The Word of Mouth Podcast / Why Your Dental Marketing Is Failing (And It's Not Your Ad Budget) | WOM 017
Transcript
- Jeff: Welcome to the Word of Mouth Podcast, the weekly podcast breaking down the business trends and news shaping modern dentistry. I'm your host, Jeff, and I'm joined by my co host today, Troy. Troy: Good to be with you, Jeff. Jeff: Awesome. Well, today we're gonna talk a little bit about marketing. The last couple we've talked a lot about news in dentistry and some of the legislation that's affecting how hygienists are being handled in practices. But today we're gonna go back to kind of what we know best and that's marketing the industry. Troy: Right. Lots to unpack there for sure. Jeff: so over the last couple of weeks, I've been reading through Seth Godin's book, This Is Marketing. ⁓ And when kind got towards the end ⁓ in chapter eighteen nineteen in particular, I came across a few paragraphs and thoughts that had that I thought were super interesting. So sent that over to you in kind of preparation for this podcast. And we're just gonna kinda run through ⁓ what Seth Godin has say and how it ⁓ perfectly aligns with kind of what we're seeing in with the dentists we work with and the dentists we talk to. Troy: Yeah, and ⁓ a big part as he kicks off is the difference between know being seen and being trusted or or even gathering attention. You know, at chapter eighteen he ⁓ he titles the the chapter trust is a as scarce as hen as attention, which really is true. There's a difference between somebody simply you or some ⁓ some exposure to you and s and and getting their attention or or even more so being trusted. And it's it's you know, it's an important concept as we think about what marketing is really intended to do. Jeff: Yeah, one example that he gives, and we'll kinda come back to this later, but he talks about ⁓ difference between Land's End, LL Bean, and Victoria's Secret, who all built their businesses primarily off of mailers, just putting a stamp on a piece of mail and sending it to your home, versus maybe the countless others of those mailers that you're getting in the mail have never built multi-million dollar businesses. And that's the difference between being seen, having someone pick up that mail and immediately throw it in the recycle bin, and being trusted, where those brands now you get the LL Bean catalog. If you are kind of one of their customers, you trust them. You're looking at that, you're kind of going through that. In fact, on my desk right now I have an REI catalog that I that I go through every time and Primarily it's because I get an ad every so often for twenty percent off. But again, that's that's all part of that consideration is how do you get people not only to see you but to trust you and to dig deeper to to really investigate and see if they're part of kind of your tribe. Troy: Yeah, and and a distinction that he draws in kind of along those lines ⁓ the notion of public relations versus ⁓ publicity. And is really just the notion of that being seen, just having exposure to to people, to more people, having them see ⁓ something about Whereas public relations is ⁓ engineered a different way. You know, there's an intentionality behind it to tell the story so that you're really creating a connection between you and the people that are that are seeing ⁓ your brand or seeing what you're offering. And I think that's an important an important distinction i ⁓ this era of of digital exposure where it's really quite simple to be seen by a lot of people. You can pay, you know, a few hundred dollars and and s you know, have thousands, hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions of people have some level of exposure to you. The question is, that exposure really creating a relationship? Is it s ⁓ it something that there is an escalation in the relationship that you have with that person or with at least some of those people that are seeing your brand? Jeff: Precisely. We talk all the time with people about social media in particular and that difference between publicity and public relations is the difference between virality and kind of being found and being trusted on social media. There are different creators on social media who get millions and millions of views but who have very few followers comparatively. Conversely, there are celebrities who have millions and millions of views and millions and millions of followers, and that's kind of the difference. ⁓ not that millions and millions is necessarily even important for dentists because they do have such a uniquely small footprint, and that's that's awesome for dentists, is that it doesn't take I ⁓ Seth Godin talks in the book as well about a thousand true fans, and it doesn't take that many people. People, a thousand people in your local neighborhood isn't a huge chunk of the market or 1,500 or 2,000, whatever kind of active patient number you need to create in order to have a stable practice. It's not a huge number. and that's really what you're looking for when you're looking for public relations and trust and those kinds of things is how do I speak to the people who are going to come and be valuable patients for my practice? And that kind of brings us into our first point, which is. A lot of the dentists that we talk to are so focused on ads. That is when they talk to us, when they say, ⁓ you do marketing for dentists, what do you do? Like what makes you different when you run ads? And the difference between us and a lot of marketing agencies is that we aren't just ads. That's the real difference. Troy: Well, and we talk about how those digital pieces, both ads as well as organic efforts, social media, all of those should be amplifiers of what you're wanting to get attention about. Because attention and trust oftentimes are as much about who you're talking to as what you're saying. You know, if there is a connection between you. Because of a ⁓ you know, show some shared interest or some shared value or whatever it might be, if there is something that you have in common, that is the bridge to trust. You know, that is the bridge to that attention. Whereas if it's somebody with whom you you really don't have something in common, or or maybe even have a difference of opinion on some key things, it's it's much more difficult to To engage them in a way that creates that trust. And so, know, part of what we the of the way that we approach marketing generally, ⁓ and digital piece specifically, where it's whether it's paid ads or organic, is it needs to start with who you're talking to and what it is, what message it is that you're trying to convey. And I think that's ⁓ what's lost, where it is become, you know, it becomes a bit of a head count. how many people are seeing or even how many people are clicking. And, you know, those can be those can be metrics that help provide directional guidance, but at the same time, ultimately it is how many are engaging, how many really are are developing that trust relationship with you that that that matters. So Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think ⁓ that you brought up that was I wanna go back to really quick is that attention. Seth Godin in the book talks about institution, media, social platforms, politicians are all facing historic skepticism. And so ⁓ with the amount of ⁓ ads and the of media that we're able to put out That getting the attention of people is really one of the problems that a lot of marketing faces generally. And dentists are no exception to that rule. South Godin talks about there's three s ⁓ of places where marketers can be, and dentists trying to market their practice are wearing their marketer hat in this scenario, and they're either ignored, they're spending money ⁓ or spending effort or time, and nothing's happening. They're sneaking around, they're trying gimmicks, they're trying to be kind of sneak people into the back door, get their attention with rage bait or those kinds of things. And that is borrowed attention. That's attention that la that and then goes away because it doesn't build that trust. And then the last one is when they do build trust, and that's where they have attention, they're getting people that. that do have those similar and common beliefs and interests. And that's why those people join their tribe. That's why they are able to become patients that are long term. They give referrals. They want their family to be involved. They want to create that community. ⁓ that's that's where dentists really need to be as local authorities in dentistry. They're they are the local authority for their area. when it comes to dentistry and that geographic constraint that dentists have in terms of not really wanting to have people drive more than ten to fifteen minutes to the dentist is a huge advantage in that in that ⁓ authority and building trust and getting attention area. Troy: Yeah, and and one thing that's important because of the unique nature ⁓ of dentists that that being ignored and then that second tier where it is non-trust related or non-attention ⁓ related kind engagement, what we see more than anything else there is commoditization where People just view their that dentist as a transactional provider of a certain service. And so that's where we see the greatest, you know, real jeopardy, and where we see the kind of the volume focus of a lot of marketing efforts really failing yes, ⁓ are running those ads of, you know, ⁓ you know, jer generic terms like. ⁓ A dentist near me or general dentist or your family dentist. And and all of those are fine, but when you recognize that, you know, in a suburban market or, you know, much less so even in an urban market where there are so many people who are attempting to convey that same broad-reaching message in your geographic area that you can't own that 10 or 15 minute drive with a message that doesn't differentiate. You're either commoditizing or you're differentiating. And I think that's one of those really key pieces is lost in the way that a lot of people approach marketing for They look and they say, what are the terms that have the highest search volume? How can I get in front of the most eyeballs? And how can I convey a message ⁓ that is to appeal to ⁓ the broadest range of people. All of those is saying, how do I get more people? None of them is asking, how do I create more trust with the people for whom I have the best opportunity to create trust? Those that are the best fit for me. So that was one thing that I really ⁓ liked about ⁓ what what Seth Golden was was talking about here is it's not about the top number. which is how many people are available to, you know, to to to create a to create some exposure to. It's getting clear about who are the people at the bottom of that funnel, using that term, you know, generally, that are the best fit for you, and then working up funnel from there to really say, how do we take a public relations approach where we're really targeting specific people? And making sure that the message aligns with what we can provide that provides that that that provides the best outcome for them, not just as it relates to the the dental outcome, but the relationship outcome that they're looking for in that you through ⁓ with a dentist. ⁓ so ⁓ that's an important distinction that I think is Is somewhat unique. It's true in all marketing ⁓ f in in all ⁓ market segments, but it's particularly true for dentists. Jeff: Yeah, and I think trust correlates to the number of voices ⁓ that kind of area. If you're the only person telling someone something, it's very easy to trust that one person. But when you have five people all telling someone something different, the trust the the the threshold to build trust with that person is much higher for each of those five voices. And should just clarify quick before I move on, that when we talk about funnel, we're not talking about like funnel hacking or like Russell Brunson kind of like squeeze pages and all of those things. We're just talking simply about the classic marketing funnel, which is kind of there are people, attention is t put in at the top, eyeballs, and patients or clients come out at the bottom. And he gives the example of Casey Neistat, a super famous ⁓ YouTuber who did blogging or vlogging rather every day for years. And talks him going live and he had or a YouTube video where he announced he was going live and that YouTube video had a million views. If you went over to his live page, he had 18,000 live viewers. bel ⁓ on that page he a thousand comments and then about five people took action all the way downstream. And so that's kind of your funnel is you're you're getting engagement at the top, just a eyeball on a YouTube video. Then you're getting people to engage with you live on a on a video. Then you're getting people to comment, to to take to their keyboards and engage with you even deeper in terms of interacting with you. And then at the very bottom you're getting people to take the action that you're wanting them to take. And so when dentists think about this Google Ads might be a top of funnel area, but how do you kind of increase the number of of places along that journey that you can connect and deepen that connection with a potential patient or a current patient? Seth Godin had a quote that I just wanted to read. Every quick click between the first and last makes your funnel more expensive, but you get rid of too many clicks, then no one will trust you enough to buy from you. And that's really what we've seen over the last twenty years in dentistry. The advent of Google Ads allowed everyone to buy more clicks at the top. But slowly over time, we've eliminated all of the internal clicks, any engagement inside the funnel from that first click. And it's making it hard for people to trust dentists because more and more and more dentists are spending and getting in front of eyeballs on Google Ads. Troy: and I and I think ⁓ you know, and maybe just to tie that back to something that you said before, where a variety of voices makes it harder to decide who to trust. I think actually a little bit of a of ⁓ Of of the trust problem of a bygone era. what I mean by that is I think the bigger trust problem that people have across all industries, but I would say, you know, if we're focusing just on dentistry, it's particularly exacerbated in the dental industry, is the lack of diversity of voices. You know, because what Google did when they said, Hey, we can get you in front of lots of people. That was not something that most industries were super well developed to do. You know, the the the branding that happens at you know national or or multinational company levels is very different than the branding you can do at a at a small brick and mortar level. so as a consequence, we saw less differentiation. Everyone looked to see what was working for ⁓ else. ⁓ And they had a tens tendency to copy it, maybe with you know slight modification, but there really was a consolidation of voices because of ⁓ because of Google primarily, but but social media generally, there was a lot of copying that occurred. So I think that the problem with trust now for a lot of dental ⁓ practices is that there is no differentiation. People don't need to trust something if there is no difference between it and its competitors. You know, there that that there's no distinction, if that distinction doesn't matter, there there needs to be, there there doesn't need to be trust. It's only when I'm having to sit to just ⁓ decide between things where I do see an important distinction that I need to make a trust decision. Let me give you just quickly maybe an example of that. If if I'm trying to decide between the supplier for my water cooler, you know, who brings in those five gallon bottles of water to put on there. And I don't believe it matters. There there's no difference between the quality of the water in those five-gallon things. I'm just gonna look at who's cheapest, you know, or or or whatever. I I don't need to trust who's bringing it in because I don't see that there's any difference in what they're bringing in. Now, conversely, if in that same situation, if I have somebody who I believe their water is, you know, fundamentally or or importantly better some way than the other suppliers, now I have a trust relationship with that product that That changes the way that I'm approaching that transaction. Dentists are much the same way. For the person who does not believe that it matters which dentist they go to to get their cleanings done, like they literally believe they're all the same. Anyone will do just a fine job. That is a buyer persona where trying to build trust is going to be really difficult because they're not looking for trust in that relationship. That is the persona that, you know, those broad broad term ⁓ keywords and and that very generic marketing to reach as many as possible, that is is the persona that it tends to do two things, tends to reach, of course. It also tends to create. And I think that's the tragedy that we've seen in the dental industry, is that there there is an increasing segment of the population who really Don't see a difference between one dentist or another. So trying to build that trust relationship difficult, especially when your messaging tells them you're really no different than every, you know, than anyone else. I I friendly ⁓ and a family focused practice whatever. If if that's the same message that they're getting from 10 other dentists right in their immediate area. You're you're not inviting them to make a trust decision. You're inviting them to make a commodity decision. Jeff: Yeah. And I think that ⁓ with that there is ⁓ AI fication of things, which ⁓ I think someone ⁓ that AI makes every individual more creative because it allows them to experience more ideas faster. Troy: AI vacation. Mm-hmm. Jeff: But it makes the collective of society less creative because everyone kind of gets to the average. And like you said, if everyone's hearing that same message, just gonna go who's cheapest or who's loudest. If someone's screaming in your face, if you see I think that's why DSOs have been so successful, is because everything got kind of commoditized and then they have the budgets to scream the loudest in that market. And so that's why dentists are feeling that that pain from the D SOs, that competition, is because they're trying to scream against a loud screamer rather than just saying something different, having a different message. And Troy: And and and if I can hit on that point, Jeff, when we talk about that funnel, so how many people are seeing you and then how many people are taking steps progressing through that funnel to becoming a patient, you really have to think about why would they come to you? Like, ⁓ I mean, take a step back and be honest about it. Why is it that they would choose me over somebody you know, the the the 10 other practices that are just as close to them as I am. if the ⁓ is not articulated in the way that you're presenting your practice to and if the ⁓ answer that ⁓ isn't of clarity of a connection that you, you know, a somewhat unique connection that you can draw. Between your practice and your philosophy and who you are as a person and what your interests are and that person, now it becomes, you know, almost a random, like a crapshoot, whether they're gonna choose you or not. There's not a reason for them to choose you. You're just hoping that they are. And that isn't marketing. You know, that's you know, that's gambling. You know, I mean that and and that's what advertising is. You know, advertising oftentimes Jeff: Advertising. Yeah, that's that's actually a distinction that Seth Godin makes in his book, is that there's a difference between marketing, which is building that brand, building that connection, building that trust, and advertising, which is just getting d rolling the dice. Troy: Yeah yeah, and and some of that is driven by the channels that you're choosing and really how you're how you're developing a strategy to connect with more of the people that align with your practice philosophy, align with your interests and and where you have an advantage to connect with them in a way that you know that other may not. ⁓ And ⁓ if the channel is primarily digital and if the strategy on digital is primarily volume, like more people seeing your message. That necessarily, I mean, there you just can't avoid the reality that you have become commoditized, where you really are just gambling that a person is going to choose you over the other practices from which y there isn't a difference. You know, you just aren't differentiating. You all look the same. So you're just hoping that maybe ⁓ choose you because you have a Jeff: Yeah. Troy: prettier image or whatever else. You know, that that's not really a strategy. That's really you know, like I said, that's just gambling. So I like the distinction that ⁓ the Godin makes between advertising and marketing for that point. There is a difference in the strategy that underlies it. Jeff: Yeah, and I think while we're on this point before we kind of move into closing out this podcast, before we kind of move into closing out this episode, I think we wanna also talk about the effect it has on patient retention. Because when you build trust, those patients continue to come back. And if you're only looking at CAC at customer acquisition cost, cost per click, cost per conversion. you're missing out on maybe the most important number for a dental clinic, which is lifetime value of a customer. And it there's st countless studies that say that a patient that is retained for your practice is five times cheaper than acquiring a new one. So if you're only looking at cost of acquisition, you're looking at a pretty high number. If you're looking at lifetime value, the revenue and the the dollars and cents start to make more sense. Troy: Well, I ⁓ seen that stat and it's ⁓ ubiquitous across a lot of industries. I would say in the dental industry, ⁓ math gets even more more and will continue to do so as more dentists ⁓ and know, driven by DSOs get more desperate to try to get ⁓ more patients. ⁓ You what what that will cause is that there there will be more effort To entice people away from other practices with cheaper cleanings or whatever promotion it might be to try to get more ⁓ to move over to know to a new practice. So I think that that delta between retention and acquisition, it's to get ⁓ greater it's gonna get greater emotionally as well. So the idea of building that trust ⁓ and organizing the marketing strategy. Around messaging that know can be reasonably expected to make that trust relationship more than a just a transaction. it's going to just continue to pay bigger and bigger dividends over time as as we see you know a continued push towards commoditizing the dental industry. Those that get it right, they're going to have ⁓ you know, sustainable practices. They're gonna have, you know, practices that are future proof against what will be just because dentists are filling a pinch and when they fill a pinch, there a tendency to just look for what are the easiest, quickest answers to alleviate that. And they just kind of been programmed to think the answer to that is more patience. And the answer to more patience is more exposure ⁓ ⁓ and and more kind of tricks to people to convert, which are those promotions that aren't sustainable from the standpoint of not creating trust, creating commoditization. Jeff: a hundred percent. And we don't have time to go into today, but it's going beyond patient acquisition cost and lifetime value of a patient because the unmeasurable in metric in that scenario is referrals. And the more trust you build, the higher the lifetime value, but also the more referrals you're more likely to get. So I think that there's it's just a multifaceted thing where it it just absolutely compounds and the numbers kind of get crazy. Troy: Yeah. Well and Yeah, and and and again we won't dive into the math of it. but and and you said it's immeasurable and I we probably not the term you intended to use. It's it is measurable, it's just often forgotten, you know, or there there isn't enough attention paid to it. But you're exactly right. I mean, when you look at at you're attracting, you want to You want to attract patients that connect well with you. And within that is going to be a subset of evangelists. you become much better at ⁓ and there's people that are naturally going to have a predisposition to be those kind of evangelists that are out there referring to you. You increase the probability ⁓ not only attracting that type of person to your practice, but encouraging them to engage in that type of evangelism. By building that trust and having that differentiation be at the heart of not only what you say about yourself, but how you conduct business and what you make your practice ⁓ personality a daily basis. So Jeff: Yeah, and I should clarify when I said unmeasurable, I more meant ⁓ that it's harder to average. So lifetime value is easier to kind of average out because the dollars spent are all kind of the same. But like we've said before on the podcast, we had someone one of ⁓ the patients of the clinic that we work with refer twenty-three people in six months. And so it's it can be a crazy number if you find the right people. Troy: For sure. Jeff: And not everyone who you build trust with will be that kind of person. And so that kind of averaging is harder to necessarily measure where you say, I get a yeah, I get a a great new patient in, I can expect them to give me 15 referrals. That's that's just harder. That's more ⁓ not unmeasurable, like you said, but harder to project. ⁓ so one thing I want to touch on quickly before we wrap it up is ⁓ idea that ⁓ Troy: Project. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Got it. Yeah. Jeff: We've kind of been dumping on Google ads. I wanna set the record straight that Google ads are one hundred percent a good a great part ⁓ a holistic strategy. Troy: and and what we talk ⁓ the the way that we like to present it is it's a question of whether it is the starting point and oftentimes the ending point of your marketing efforts or whether it is an amplification of the strata that strategy that you've built more holistically. ⁓ Because Ads, it's just a tool, you know, that's all it is. But if it's the only tool you have. It's going to be difficult to really accomplish and build a sustainable practice. An example that we've used in the past is if you consider Google ⁓ Google Ads like a hammer, you're not going to be able to build an entire house ⁓ using a hammer. But at the same time, if you're building a house, ⁓ there be times when the hammer is the appropriate tool for what you need. That's what we're really talking about when we're ⁓ when we're looking at building a sustainable, growing, ⁓ know, ⁓ and and compounding practice, ⁓ that we look across the whole range of tools and what we're trying to do is make sure that we're aligning the right tools with where the practice is at present, ⁓ know, not only in terms of their growth cycle, but also in terms of their marketing cycle. You know, how well have they already differentiated. and and you know how well are they connected with with their local communities or you know some of those questions ⁓ based on that developing a strategy for which tool or tools are the right ones to deploy now and how do we use them the right way. So Google Google Ads is a powerful tool and it can be ⁓ used great effect. What we see too often ⁓ is being used In the wrong way and in the wrong place. so it's kind of like saying, hey, I'm gonna turn a hammer around and use it to try to screw in a screw. ⁓ you I'm using the hammer the wrong way and for the wrong job. ⁓ what we see a lot of times with Google. It can't be. ⁓ I know this is you know a strong statement, but it's It it cannot be. The first place that you're trying to market. Because almost invariably the messaging that you do are going to compromise your position positioning long term. You're going to find that your profitability continues to erode because of increased competition. because of the way that Google is profiling that they send, you're just going to end up getting more of the wrong types of. of of patients coming your way. Even if your flow is still good, you're gonna find that you your quality of patient continues to erode unless using it in concert with other things and ⁓ a a ⁓ both targeting and messaging that builds your practice, builds your trust, builds your connection with people versus just commoditizing your practice. Jeff: Yeah, and let's also be clear that when we say it can't be your first, if you are running Google Ads and that's the only way you're ⁓ advertising right now, don't turn ⁓ off. Let ⁓ keep running, but shift your focus from trying to optimize the crap out of Google Ads and out ways to build downstream so that Google isn't the first focus, isn't the only focus of your advertising funnel. ⁓ you still need to keep the lights on. So there is a transition period. Troy: For sure. And and and let me let me soften it just a little bit from what I said. The problem with having it be your first and only thing is that we haven't seen anyone that does that in a way that creates sustainability. You know, it is all about more, just more in the door any ⁓ consideration of. How those people are aligning with the practice that you're trying to build. So you're exactly right, Jeff. If it's the patient flow, if it's the only mechanism for getting new patients, and you need those new patients just to meet payroll, then the right ⁓ is not necessarily turn it off tomorrow. But there does also need to be some recognition that. It's going to get more expensive. So if your margins are already thin, relying on Google and trying to just do the more, it's going to get more expensive, which is going to erode ⁓ those those margins further. It's going to get more competitive, meaning that there's going to be fewer available. and you know, there's certainly a lot of trends pointing to the fact that it's just gonna be. ⁓ you're pulling you're gonna be fishing from a thinner pond of people because there's other ways that people are getting information now. So to your point, you know, we're not advocating sort of a practice suicide by cutting off the only channel that you have, but at the same time, know, w we need to be very blunt and say it's not a winning strategy long term to rely only on that that channel. ⁓ in part because almost invariably the messaging and the strategy that's being utilized there is not going to be right. There are ways to improve your targeting, there are ways to improve your messaging, to leverage that tool the way it's meant to be leveraged, and thumbs up on that. but there's other tools that need to be you know, clipped to your tool belt as you look to, you know, build the practice that that you're looking to practice and grow it in the way that you want to grow it. Jeff: Yeah, and to use your analogy, if you're building a house, a hammer better in most situations than just your bare hands. But ⁓ the more tools you can add to your tool belt, the better off gonna be. So don't chuck the hammer, but it's it's worth keeping that and ⁓ and then building on top of that. And I think also I just wanted point out quick that We do see this with dentists on both sides. we've had clients who come to us and they want to just dump ads immediately and we have to tell them, no, no, you need to you need to keep patient flow going. We can't abandon ship. But then we've also had clients who are like, why do we need to talk about why why even run ads? ⁓ sorry, that's not both sides. Troy: Yeah, it is. Jeff: ⁓ it is. Okay. Yeah. ⁓ and we've had clients who are saying, why even run ads? like ⁓ I I don't want to talk about ads, all I want is the other tools, and they're trying to abandon abandon that altogether. And so there's the the dentists we work with and and dentists across the board are kind of y you're not alone if you feel kind of push back on any of these ideas. Troy: Yeah, kinda. Jeff: ⁓ but it is what we've seen work throughout our the practices we work with and and in our previous life marketing for our own practices. Troy: And and I will say one other element that we've maybe skipped over that is important as you're starting to to to grow a practice. If you've g if you've had Google ads running, they also provide a great data source. You know, that's a way that we oftentimes will utilize ads, not only to to generate revenue into the form of new patients, but also to be able to ⁓ evaluate the marketplace, evaluate some ⁓ some messaging because it is direct response. And because you can just pay for exposure, it does allow you to test concepts ⁓ to gather data to understand the marketplace and the practice perception that is really difficult to duplicate through other more organic channels. And so again, we do want to make clear it is a very useful tool as long as it's being used the right way and for the right purposes. Jeff: Absolutely. And to kind of wrap things up, just to recap what we've talked about, trust is a scarce resource. Attention, less scarce, but trust for sure is something that needs focus. ⁓ It requires your attention as a dentist. General marketing general is the trap in dental right now. That's where there is the biggest risk to practices of wasting ad spend, wasting time, money, attention, because it doesn't create a valuable long term resource. ⁓ In terms of bringing in patients that trust and value you as a clinician and as a practice. And so as we ⁓ we'll probably continue this conversation a little bit next week. There's still several points that ⁓ we have to cover, but we want to wrap it up for anyone listening to this. we appreciate you. If you're listening to this, please subscribe, leave a comment, let us know what's working in your practice, in your area. ⁓ we're here on YouTube. That's the best place to comment and connect with us. But we're also anywhere where you listen to podcasts, Apple ⁓ Spotify, et cetera. ⁓ so please, ⁓ we'd love to connect with dentists and learn kind of what's working, what's not, and and be a sounding board in terms of growing your practice and building a successful practice. Troy: Yeah, it's always fun talking about these things. It's ⁓ interesting stuff. There's a lot of opportunities, there's a lot of risks and the biggest risk is not recognizing the market's changing and changing with it. Jeff: Yes. So if you'd like, we'll link Seth Godin's book. It's not a dental marketing book, but it's just general, but it reads like a dental playbook. if you'd rather not read a marketing book, which is mostly theory, you'd rather read it in more of a fable form. We wrote our book on how we do marketing for the inside out practice. You can get a free copy by clicking the link in the description. otherwise, thanks for being here and we'll see you in the next one.