Latest / The Expert Method / Stop Pushing. Start Pulling.
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome back to Systems of Scale. I'm Ian Gatsky. Today, I'm joined by Bob Berg. Bob is the co-author of The Go Giver and his work centers on a simple idea. If you want more influence, you have to focus less on what you can get and more on the value you create for other people. In this conversation, we get into what he means when he says influence is pull, not push, and why push creates compliance, but not real commitment. We also break down the difference between persuasion and manipulation. and why that line comes down to intent and whether the other person actually benefits. If you're new here and you get value from this conversation, hit subscribe and share it with a friend. And now here is my conversation with Bob Berg. Bob Berg, thank you so much for being here. speaker-1: Hey, my pleasure, Ian. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me. speaker-0: You have said that the essence of influence isn't push, but pull, and that great influencers attract people rather than persuade through pressure, which I think goes against a lot of the common sales guidance and teachings of the last 30 years. However, I do think that this is kind of a transition that we're all going through. But when you think about that distinction between push and pull, how do you define what actually creates the pull in an interaction? speaker-1: Yeah. So let's, let's first, we, if we can look at what influence really is. So on a, on a very basic level, influence can be defined simply as the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action, ⁓ usually within the context of a specific goal. That's influence. That's its definition. But again, as you were saying, that's not really its essence. The essence of influence, as you said, is pull. This is something that I. I learned from John David Mann when we were writing our third parable in the series, the Go-Giver Influencer, where he'd said, you know, he looked at pull and said, you know, it's really, it's what's the substance of it, right? What's the essence of it? What is it really about if you're going to be able to move someone to a desired action? Now you could do it really, when you think about through two basic ways, there's push and there's pull, right? Push is what would be called compliance. do this or else, you know, when someone has the positional power or positional authority, you know, do this or you're going to get fired or you know, do do this and you know, if you want any chance of advancement. Now, does compliance or push ever work? Well, sure, when someone is in a position to be able to do that, the challenge is first, it's not very sustainable. Because as soon as that person is not in a feeling of pressure or having to, they're going to stop. But even when they're doing the thing that they were compelled to do, they're never really going to be sold on it. They're never going to give it their best. They're going to often sabotage the process itself, sometimes consciously, other times unconsciously, but it's generally not a good way to influence. Then there's pull. Great influencers, what we would call genuine influencers pull. Pull is an attraction. It's earning. commitment and this is, know, you never hear people say, wow, that person has, ⁓ that person is so influential Dave or, or Mary, she is so influential. She has, she has a lot of push with people. No, she's influential. She has a lot of pull with people. Again, that pull is an attraction. Now the question is, how do you make that happen? How do you manifest that pull? And really it's through that genuine influencer. It's where they place their focus. See, while it's, wonderful to be internally motivated, right? We want to be outwardly focused. Dale Carnegie in 1936 and his classic, how to win friends and influence people made a great statement. think it's the underlying premise of his entire book. It's where he said, ultimately people do things for their reasons. Not our reason. So the genuine influencer, while internally motivated, is externally focused. They're always asking themselves questions to make sure their focus is correct. How does what I, what I want this other person to do, how does it align with their goals, with their needs, their wants, their desires, with their values? You know, how does what I'm asking this other person to do, how does it help them solve a problem? How does it move them closer to happiness? And when we ask ourselves these questions in thoughtfully, intelligently, genuinely, authentically, not as a way to manipulate another person into doing our will, but as a way of building everyone in the process. Now we've come a lot closer to earning that commitment pull instead of depending on some type of compliance, which is push. speaker-0: And when I hear you say this in other podcasts or when you read The Go Giver, I get the sense that this really can't be something that's, know, quote unquote faked. You can't just read the words and then say, okay, great, now I'm going to go deliver this value and create this poll. It really has to be an intention or a mindset, which is a very overused word that you kind of have to adopt. Is that right? Like you kind of have to have that real internal belief that I just want to provide. whatever value I can to this other person, Just help them in their situation accomplish the things that they want to achieve. speaker-1: Yeah, you know, it's really the difference between persuasion and manipulation. So if influence is about moving a person or persons to a desired action, the way you do it and the intent behind it is key. There are basically two ways of influencing, right? Now we had push and pull, but there's two other kind of conceptual ways. One is through persuasion, which is good, which is positive. The other is through manipulation, which is bad, which is negative. you know, what is really the difference. And for many years, while I knew the difference, I never felt I really communicated it correctly. And then I was fortunate to read a book that was published in, think 1987 by Dr. Paul W. Sweats called The Art of Talking, so that people will listen, though it was much more about listening than it was about talking. It was a really great book. And he, think really gave the best explanation of the difference. I'm paraphrasing slightly here. said, manipulation aims at control, not cooperation. does not consider the good of the other party. It's win lose, you know, in nature results in a win lose situation with a persuader that can't happen because, you know, he, as he said, that it's in direct opposite of the you know, of the persuader, because for the persuader to feel good about themselves, they've got to know that not only is this in everyone's best interest, but also that the other person feels good about the situation. You know, they don't feel they were tricked. They don't feel they were manipulated. And that comes with intent. And, you know, that's why we often say that a manipulator can have a family who they love and who loves them, but generally it's not very... You know, it's kind of off, you know, there's resentment there and there's, there's some dysfunction there and so forth. A manipulator can have a, as a boss, you know, can have a team, but not really a loyal team. And the manipulator as a salesperson can have customers, but generally not very loyal ones and certainly not referral based ones. speaker-0: And typically not people who are going to be, you know, excited or enthusiastic about whatever project it is that you're working on, right? If they're not bought in. And most, yeah. And most services or products that are sold kind of requires some engagement or bought in-ed-ness of the people that are buying it. Yeah. And if you're just, if you were manipulated into making this decision, right? If you were kind of forced into kind of making this decision, even though it's against your value. speaker-1: Difference maker. Here's your sense of happiness. Yeah, no, you're you're right on totally speaker-0: Somebody that's been a manipulator, somebody that's been taught to sell using a lot of manipulative tactics, can they just read these words and or hear us in this conversation and just make this conscious decision? It's like, okay, nice, I'm just going to use more poll based tactics or lead with a poll based intent and then it just happens. Or how does that, how does somebody actually go through that transition in, in the people that you've seen make that transition in the work that you've done? speaker-1: Well, mean, reading the book can maybe cause them to think that there's a different and more productive, better way to do things. I think that really what it takes is for that person to really understand why it's actually in their best interest to influence through pull and persuasion as opposed to push and manipulation. Because unless they recognize that themselves, it's all lip service. speaker-0: Are you seeing this philosophy become more popular? Because something that I'm hearing, like Dan Tyre, and he talked about how the manipulative sales style is just so outdated and people have been burned by it for so long that that's what's got people so shelled and aware and conscious of being sold to it all times that really today in order to be successful you really have to use these more pull persuasive tactics like are you seeing this kind of trend pick up and become more popular this philosophy you speaker-1: And I think there are a couple of reasons. One is what he said is right on the mark. The other thing too, I think, is that because of the fact that the knowledge is out there, you know, used to be dependent on people, dependent on their salesperson to supply them with the knowledge, the product knowledge and other aspects. Now that's all online. You know, people can get information. There's really no value, not none, but... Mostly there's not a whole lot of value just in spewing out facts figures and in presenting information So what they're really looking for is a salesperson who can understand them who can see them as a human who can really have their well-being at heart You know I've said since the since my first book endless referrals came out in the early 90s And I was saying it before them that all things being equal people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like, and trust. That was true years and years and years ago, okay? I think it's more so now, right? More technology, you know, and hey, there's a lot of great things about technology can actually, it can help you become more human in many ways when you use it, you know, to that end to make things easier for your customer. But to think it's gonna replace the human touch, oh my God, that's where people are gonna end up getting. In trouble, my colleague, Scott McCain just wrote a wonderful book about that called Beyond Distinction. And, you know, he, and he went through a whole thing about how, don't in any, in any way think that you can replace the human touch with technology. it's so, And so, and there's one other thing too, regarding the selling process at this point too, there's a lot more moving parts often. You know, it used to be. And you you think of business to consumer as, know, that one person, but more now in business to business, there's typically more than one decision maker, you know, especially when you get into enterprise complex sales and so forth. So it's not a matter of, you know, a technique and one person or this and that, you know, now you've got to really create these know, like, and trust relationships and be able to navigate this across the board. So I think there's many, or a number of reasons for this, but yeah, I totally agree that that old way is is really out. And I think that's good news for everybody actually. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, it's just going to create more win-win situations and more happy customers. And happy customer is the most valuable thing for any business, right? Because they're more likely to provide a testimonial, refer, be engaged with the process, take action, get results, and be a happy customer and buy more of stuff in the future, stay on for longer, all that good stuff. Hard selling is for weak products is one. And then number two, more related to what you had just shared is... the salesperson or the person that can most clearly and accurately articulate the problems that the prospect is facing is the one who's going to be more likely to win the deal. And I feel like that you can only fully and truly understand somebody's problem and repeat it back to them if you've listened. So why is listening so important ⁓ in this process? speaker-1: There's a couple reasons. One is, you know, everybody wants to feel understood. And the more questions, more good questions you ask and the more you genuinely listen, the more they feel understood and the more that human to human connection is made. But there's a bigger issue as well. And that is as human beings, we are subject to what I call an unconscious operating system, which is our belief systems and our set of beliefs, how the world works. was handed to us through a variety of ways, upbringing, environment, schooling, news media, television, but really by the time we're little more than toddlers, our basic sense of how the world works, what is truth, what is this, what is that, and beliefs are simply subjective truths. The truth as we understand the truth to be not necessarily what the truth is, right? So what happens is as human beings, and I think this is so key, we tend to believe that other people see the world Basically the same way we see the world which makes intuitive sense. How could it be anything else? That's why you'll hear people say things like I would never say that to anyone Well, no, you wouldn't because that's not congruent with your belief system, but for other people it's not right or when you hear people So nobody likes that. Well, no you and other people don't like it, but other people do you know, yeah, so so what happens is We tend to believe that what we find to be of value is what they would find to be a value. And it's not necessarily true. Maybe then it's just luck. So no, so we need to, the only way to really be able to step into another person's shoes, if you will, is to ask questions and then listen. Really, really listen. That's really what it's all about. It's only at that point that we can begin to understand what they find to be a value. speaker-0: understanding what the person you're trying to work with would find a value is everything. Your whole goal is to just be of value to this person and you can't be of value if you don't know what is of value to that person and the only way to get clear on that is to ask questions and listen, right? And I that's something that I personally in my own transformation in this process of becoming a more persuasive individual and learning how to sell and just be of value to people is Yeah, I struggled a lot with, and I still struggle with it, is just coming in with all of these assumptions. Like, know my product, I know my service. So, ⁓ that's right. speaker-1: You know, we all started, all, but most of us in sales, you know, that's just what we did with saw we knew until you start to learn until you start to learn differently. speaker-0: So maybe a more tactical question is, if you were starting a conversation with a prospect, even not even knowing what the product or service is, how do you typically start those conversations? What are the types of questions that you're asking in order to kind of uncover the problems or what would be of value to that person? What are the kinds of questions? What do those look like? speaker-1: Well, there are two levels of this, I think is, and one is let's say you work a specific niche industry or market. Okay. You should know enough about your marketplace that you're about 80 % of the way there to knowing what is needed, wanted and desired by that particular marketplace. You know, that's how well you know it, but then it's understanding that, that again, people are different. Right now people have their own needs. So now once you understand that now, when you're in the sales conversation with someone, now you've got to ask the questions to draw out the Zattles, right? What exactly is it they need, want and desire? What are the problems they're having? What are the problems that they know they're having, but also sometimes, you know, what are the problems they don't know they have because they're too close to the situation, but you as the outside person are able to see the industry from a, you know, more of a 30,000 foot view. Also, what opportunities do they have that they could leverage that they don't know that they have, that you can add those kinds of insights to help them ⁓ see that. Okay, so the questions you ask are gonna be different depending upon your industry and profession and who you're talking to. But basically, you're trying to find out what... would motivate them to buy. Harry Brown was right. People would ask him, how can I motivate this person to buy? And he'd say, you don't have to motivate them to buy. They're already motivated to buy. Your only goal is to discover what it is that motivates them. And by the way, of course, if they're not motivated to buy and they have no need, want or desire, then they're not your prospect. But assuming that they are, that's your job. So the questions you ask are going to revolve around that. What are their challenges? What is it they want to accomplish? What's keeping them from doing that? What have they tried before? Did it work? Why didn't it work? What could have been done differently? What would they like to see the results in 90 days from now or whatever? What would happen with their business if these results weren't? So there's all sorts of questions that you can, of course, those are very generic in nature, but so you would ask questions that have to do with, again, helping to discover those issues. speaker-0: as you navigate through that discovery process where you're uncovering the problems, uncovering their motivations, uncovering the things that they want to achieve, if you, during that process, realize that I'm not the right guy, right? My product or service isn't really gonna help you with those things, right? If those are your problems, being able to step away and just say that, right? Say, hey, this isn't gonna work, right? Being able to step away and just really... actually looking to seek to find if you can help somebody and only if you truly can after you've completed that discovery phase if you can help them then you kind of make the pitch and then you make the offer but is that a big part of it really the willingness to step away and just say ⁓ I actually can't help you speaker-1: Absolutely. you know, hopefully you'll have resources you can refer to them. And those are people who you know, like and trust and you know, would handle it the same way. Right. But even if not, you sure you would let them know that you're not the right person. can't tell you how many times I've had to do that because I knew I wasn't the right person and didn't what they needed. You know, that's just part of being a good human. You know, it's nothing to do. Right. But how often does that come back to you? Why? Because you've earned their trust. They know, you know, that you have their well-being at heart. So whether it's that they need you in the future or somebody who asks about, you know, what you do. And they say, well, you know, you should talk to so-and-so because they'll tell you if they can help you or not. That happens so very often. speaker-0: And that really is just the underlying paradox of this whole system, right? Just demonstrated again, where if you tell somebody honestly, right, hey, I'm not the guy for you, I can't help you. Again, you just provide value, right? And the most valuable thing you could do in that situation is maybe refer somebody else or just tell them, hey, this isn't going to be the right fit. Maybe here are some ideas that I have and maybe this could work. just again, providing whatever value you can will come back to serve you more in the long run, right? It's the underlying paradox of this whole system. speaker-1: Think you hit it right on the head? Absolutely. speaker-0: Bob, if you had a giant billboard that everyone in the world could see for 10 seconds, what would it say and why? speaker-1: So this is from a book, it's my favorite personal development book of all time. It's called Living Untethered by ⁓ Michael A. Singer. The highest thing you could do with your life is to make it so that every moment that passes before you is better off because it did. That's the highest definition of the purpose of life, that every single moment, every person, every moment that happens to unfold in front of you is better off. Because it passed by you, it was raised a little. Again, that's Michael A. Singer from Living Untethered. That would be a good billboard, I think. speaker-0: How do you feel like you put that into practice? Like what does that look like for you in a moment to moment day by day? speaker-1: It just depends. I try to stay conscious of it. It can be anything from, you know, again, saying a kind word to someone who needs that kind word, or it could be, you know, seeing that other, the stray shopping cart in the parking lot and grabbing it and bringing it in. You know, anytime we're picking up that trash that's on the ground, even though it wasn't yours that, you that you put there. So, I mean, I think it's those little things that we can do, you know, is very ordinary. but at the same time it just raises life a little bit. speaker-0: that kind of rhymes with the whole philosophy of the go-giver mentality, right? Of just doing what you can to just provide value to the people that you're working with and just making them, their life a better situation because of their interaction with you. ⁓ Very cool. Bob, thank you so much for the time today. speaker-1: ⁓ my pleasure, Ian. Thank you so much for having me. speaker-0: Thank you for listening to my conversation with Bob Berg. Here are my three main takeaways from the conversation. Number one, push gets action, but not commitment. You can get somebody to say yes through pressure, but that doesn't mean that they're bought in. And if they're not bought in, they won't follow through at a high level or engage with the process that you're guiding them through. For anyone running a program or selling something that requires engagement from your clients, that distinction matters more than the initial sale. You need people who are engaged and bought in in order to get results and become a happy customer. and a happy customer is the most powerful thing in your business. Number two, most people are solving the wrong problems. We walk into conversations assuming that we already understand what the other person needs, but as Bob pointed out, people see the world through their own belief systems, and those are often very different from our own. If you're not asking questions and really listening, you're probably gonna spend time solving or creating solutions for the wrong problems that your people or your prospect doesn't actually care about. Number three, trust is built when you're willing not to close. The moment you're willing to say, this isn't a fit, the dynamic in the whole conversation changes. You're no longer trying to get something from the person or push them to do something. You're trying to get it right. You're trying to see if you can actually help them. And that's usually what leads to better long-term outcomes, whether that's referrals, retention, or real results. And you'll actually end up closing more deals. If you want to get connected with Bob, you can find his work at Berg.com and check out the link in the description to buy and read his book, The Go Giver. I highly recommend And if you run a coaching program, course or mastermind, and your clients aren't completing the work that you assigned to them, download the free program execution system toolkit in the description. It shows you how to install what I call execution infrastructure so clients actually follow through and get results. Thank you for listening and I'll see you in the next one.