Latest / Mobile Signal / Is DT's Data Strategy a Real Edge? | Itai Cohen, CSO at Digital Turbine

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Is DT's Data Strategy a Real Edge? | Itai Cohen, CSO at Digital Turbine · Mobile Signal

• Josh Chandley: Meta and Google see what you do in their apps. AppLeaven sees deep inside games mediating with Macs. But DT sees something else. How you move across apps inside the whole device from within the firmware. It's I Cohen, DT's chief strategy officer. Let's start at the beginning. What happens when a phone from One of your partners boots up for the first time. Itai Cohen: Hey Josh, thanks for having me and it's great to be here. so yeah, let's talk about the first boot experience. so we power a component of that introduction to a new device. And when our on-device technology is inside of that device, our Ignite technology, we can show up a screen to the user to give them selections of apps that they might choose to onboard on the device, install on device, and then you know use. For their ongoing journey with that device. That's just one example of multiple experiences that we power. It's the first boot experience. But it's one that helps think about what our business can do because it's an interesting moment in time for a user when they get their new device to make a bunch of choices about which apps they might choose to use for different services, how they're gonna spend their time with that device. It's a very open minded moment in time for users. They're making a bunch of consumer choices and we're able to plug into that mindset and kind of offer an opportunity to all app developers to participate in that. Josh Chandley: So what you're what you're saying is literally when I when I turn on my my Android, not an iPhone device for the first time, and I'm I'm putting in my password, I'm logging in with Google, you're offering me apps, like literally, okay, this is a new phone, what do you want on? Itai Cohen: Yes. we have a limited number of apps. We also obviously we A B test the user experience around that. I think the main takeaway here is that we have a bunch of opportunities on the device where we basically own the pixels on the screen. And then we can power engagement through that. And sometimes it's for the benefit of driving app installs, sometimes it's for other advertising use cases or engagement use cases. But in this particular example, that's exactly right. We will show you bunch of apps that are very popular and very useful and we can, you know, with a with a good degree of confidence believe that you will engage with them. And then, you know, hopefully you make those choices that put the apps that we recommend on the device. and you know obviously that's a financially lucrative moment for all parties involved. Josh Chandley: Okay. And how many devices is this software running on today? Itai Cohen: About a billion devices worldwide. and the the footprint is is kind of like this evolving moving thing because older devices get deprecated and newer devices come out. So we onboard tens of millions of devices on a on a quarterly basis. and so the footprint just continues to expand and and grow. We also, as we onboard more device partners, Again, that's that's a really important lever for our business and it also expands our global footprint. The international business for on device business for us has been a real growth driver in the last few years. Josh Chandley: And does this relationship with the player does it end after the unbox experience or is it a a lifelong connection? Itai Cohen: it we it's it's a great question because I think that's the interesting part about it is that throughout the lifetime of the device, there are different moments that matter that we try to introduce to the user or show up on the screen and power that user experience. And we're in doing so, we're basically complementing a missing component for our device partners. Their relationship with the consumer largely stops at the point of sale. They sold a new device, there's there's now a new subscriber. And they will monetize that subscriber from the subscription fee that they charge, but they won't necessarily have more interaction on an ongoing basis. Now, obviously, we all you know get text messages from our carriers or or things to that of that nature is emails, maybe some operators also have their own apps to manage the account, but it's not an a a daily or or an intensive relationship. What DT complements. i in in our activity is exactly that, the ability to engage the user on an ongoing basis. So the onboarding experience is one component of it, but we we basically call it like first day everyday is how we think about those experiences. Josh Chandley: So that's one side, the on device business. The other side is the app growth platform, AGP. That's the one that competes against, you like AppLeven, Unity, Moloco, Liftoff, Meta Audience Network, Mintigral, and a Google Ad Mob, and all for impressions in mobile apps, I mean, like mine. People generally see them as two different businesses. Do you? Itai Cohen: we don't. We might report on them as two segments of our business and they do have differences that are clear and and you know, unreconcilable between them. They're not the same exact activity, but they are one platform in one business. and that's you know, there are a a bunch of examples or or aspects through which we can kind of talk about where they're different and where they're the same. Competing in the auction is a part of the business that is AGP specific, right? We that app growth component of our business is where we plug into different apps across the ecosystem, you know, over 82,000 apps to date, where we monetize those impressions and we compete with all those companies that you mentioned. But from an advertiser point of view, if I'm trying to run a campaign with digital turbine, I shouldn't be making choices on whether I I'm gonna end up on an on device placement or an in-app placement. I just want to maximize reach, relevancy, you know, ROAS. And so that's a unified component of our of our platform. And that's actually been part of the background to the evolution of the DT brand and and some of the ways that we're now talking about our solutions. Josh Chandley: Okay, and so there's a also there's a new taxonomy at play, right? you announced change Itai Cohen: Exactly, yes. Josh Chandley: to yeah. Tell me more about that. Itai Cohen: so as part of the DT platform, we have three solutions. We have DT Ignite, which is our on-device engagement monetization solution, which we just talked about. We have DT Ads, which is where all advertisers can run campaigns on DT's inventory, and app developers can plug into that demand. And then there's DT Launchpad, which is where we enable app developers to distribute and grow their app across our entire inventory footprint. Josh Chandley: Okay. Okay. Is Launchpad for performance demand or all demand? Itai Cohen: Launchpad is specifically for app growth, for app distribution. And so as a developer, you know, just if you think about the logic behind this, again, DT has access to this unique on-device inventory and then access to massive invent in app inventory at scale. We don't want an app developer to start having to make choices on how they are, you know, looking at their opportunity with DT. We want to streamline that whole process. And so Launchpad allows you to run across everything that DT has to offer. Another aspect of that is that we also are open for business with any app version that you might want to run, be it a Google Play version, an App Store, iOS App Store version, or even an off play direct to consumer version of your app. We're able to distribute any and all. Josh Chandley: I see. Okay, here's how here's how I'd frame your bet. your differentiation is is wide and shallow. You know, Applevin, I've already said sees deep inside its max ecosystem, but very little out outside of that. You're the inverse, seeing across the whole phone. Make it concrete for me. So for AGP, what does the ignite the ODS or the Ignite business let you see that other networks can't? that that that wins DT ads and an impression that you'd otherwise lose. Itai Cohen: Yeah. So I think there are a a couple of points to make on that. first of all, you know, the the diversity of touch points that we see across different apps and across the device footprint, it's about two point four billion users on a quarterly basis. So it's massive scale just in terms of the unique users, and then it's also very diverse in terms of the types of touch points. Like I said earlier, our on device touch points are not exclusively just about app install opportunities. There are also other types of engagements like notifications or content experiences that provide very rich context about a user. And so I would say it's not necessarily that it's you know, maybe per specific touch point you would say that's shallower than the point of view that meta has on meta apps. But in terms of what we see about user behavior at scale, it's actually pretty extensive. And so now we're able to match that insight with a very broad and diverse set of campaigns that we're running, again, for app install purposes, but then for other goals, other marketing outcomes. And I think that's kind of what's unique about DT is that breadth of signal and breadth of demand that we bring to the table, and then how we match both. Josh Chandley: Can you give me an example of a a signal or something that's material to a bid you would make that you receive that other networks might not? Itai Cohen: I'll give you a couple of of examples. One I think is before you we you even talk about the specific data signal, a point that's often overlooked, but it's pretty unique to DT is the fact that on our on-device business, we again like we can control and A-B test the user experience itself. Right? So we can see what users respond better to and which types of users respond better to a certain experience versus another. But I think the more strategic aspect of it is We're not purely beholden to standard IAB ad formats, and that's the only thing that we can run. Right? Like even the largest companies in the world, in our space, at the end of the day, they still rely on you, the developer, to tell them you can run a rewarded video ad here, you can run an interstatial ad here, you can run a banner here. We can actually invent a new on device experience and then go and pitch our device partners on that experience and new supply comes to life. And that's a level of independence and differentiation that I think is hard to come by. It's also exclusive supply. So only DT can reach that supply. So that's one side of where that becomes pretty special and strategic. Now, as part of that, you know, new supply is a new monetization opportunity, but it can also yield new signals, like what choices and interactions did users make as they're engaging with the screen on those specific instances. So I think that's like on on both layers, just the ability to expand what we can reach and create new supply out of thin air, or you know, the ability to then derive the signal from that interaction and apply that to our models, that's a pretty exciting part of the business. Josh Chandley: Yeah, let's talk about that that second part. Cause I I'm a selfish pub. I want to know about how to drive more demand into my in app ads. You know, what are what are the signals that you're receiving that allow you to win an impression that without it you might otherwise lose. Itai Cohen: So one of the fundamental aspects of our technology, and you know, again, I'm kind of assuming that you're asking about what's unique and different about the on-device footprint that allows you to then translate that into better bids in the auction, right? Josh Chandley: Yes. Itai Cohen: Great. So one of the aspects, the fun foundational aspects of Ignite is that it is able to install apps. We don't redirect you to the Google Play Store to complete the download. We install the app on behalf of the advertiser. In order to install the app, We need to make sure that we're not putting an app on the device that's already there. So we need to see the app list that's on the device. Right. And so that in itself is a pretty unique signal that we can then translate into what is the you know the the preference of a s of of you know different segments of users. Users who have a certain app list on their device might have certain preferences and might be more inclined to engage with certain certain apps versus others. so you know, that's just a tip of the iceberg example, but I think one that's very s fairly straightforward to understand why it's both technically necessary, but also valuable for optimization. Josh Chandley: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Just like a basic example would be if a player has tons of puzzle games on their phone, even if you're showing an ad in a non gaming app, that context is very helpful for you. Itai Cohen: Yeah, exactly. It's it's about preferences and engagement tendencies. And we see that from our own first party experiences, first and foremost, when we are on the screen, we can see what users prefer because they're engaging. You can think about that aspect of our business as if we're a publisher in that case, right? It's now our time to be on the screen and our time to see user engagement within the the the specific user experience that's currently being shown on the device. And then Outside of that, there's the technical delivery aspect of it, which again provides us with unique insights. Josh Chandley: Without asking for for any s secret sauce, help me understand the shape. Does your data edge does it result in you winning the same impressions other networks that are very performance-based already value very highly? Or are you s being able to to see in different impressions that they don't know how to to to value as effectively? Like how would you characterize the shape of like how that expresses itself? Itai Cohen: So I think it's both, but the reason that it's both is because different signals would influence how you treat an auction, a different auction, right? so on one hand you can say if I have a slightly differentiated lens to this specific user than some of my competitors, then I might choose to bid differently on this specific auction. But then on the other hand, you know, if we'll give a a more of straightforward example, this is a user that is known to be a high value in-app purchase user. You're gonna have a lot of competition for that user, and you're probably going to have multiple companies that know that about that user. And so that option, we can all kind of predict what the demand makeup is gonna be for it. And it's also going to be a very exactly Josh Chandley: It's gonna be an expensive one. Yeah. Itai Cohen: it's going to be an expensive one. it's but then on the other hand, if I can see someone something different about a user, not just about their proclivity to complete in-app purchases. Then I might price it differently than my competitors for a different different reason. And so that yes, that's part of that that that's in there. But the other side of it is also what demand do you bring to the table? If I'm single-threaded on app install demand, then I'm going to view users only through that lens. And I'm gonna view auctions only through that lens. If I'm trying to service multiple different marketing outcomes, then I'm gonna value users differently depending on those outcomes. And what is a highly valuable user for a brand ad? is might not necessarily be a valuable user or as valuable of a user for companies that are only evaluating that auction through the lens of the opportunity to install an app. Josh Chandley: I think the brand versus performance question is a really interesting one. But first I and it's a fair hedge as well. But I want to ask a more direct question. what don't you see? where's the trade-off of like firmware versus pure SDK? Like what's the downside or the cost, the trade-off of that breath? Itai Cohen: Yeah, it's it's interesting because we don't necessarily view that as a trade-off. We we view these things as reinforcing and complementing each other. what I mean by that is we can't you know, no one can see what Meta sees inside of Meta's apps or Google sees inside of Google's apps, et cetera, et cetera. You know, our some of our competitors have their own very unique proprietary data sets. That's ours. Our proprietary and unique data set is the device. footprint, which to your point is very diverse and it's very broad. and then we have our SDK component, which allows us to see what all ad networks with an SDK on all ad platforms with an SDK are able to see. And so we're able to just build our unique data advantage using both of those layers. I don't think that we're necessarily sacrificing something that we wouldn't have had access to anyway, right? Like no other company can see inside of Meta's or Google's ecosystem the way that they can. So we're not uniquely inferior in that regard. we just have our different race that we're running in terms of how we build a differentiated data asset. Josh Chandley: So I I understand where you're coming from, but I mean come on, there business is always about making productive trade-offs, right? majority of your users and your data, I I think is coming from the firmware, based on just like the the user count numbers, you know, so not the SDK. Performance UA okay, correct me, please. Yeah, no, correct me. Itai Cohen: We actually Yeah. Yeah, we we actually just on a on a pure quantitative count, Josh Chandley: Yeah. Itai Cohen: we see more users through the SDK than we do through the on device business. Our SDK, first of all, also covers the iOS footprint. So that in itself is Josh Chandley: I see. Itai Cohen: a huge you know aspect of the business that's not applicable to the on device side of things. but then also, you know, if we are on you know, north of 80,000 apps across the ecosystem. And some of them are the most popular, most proliferated apps in the ecosystem, then you're gonna get a lot of scale and a lot of exposure and a lot of global scale at that through the SEK. Whenever it is an Ignite device, then that's an extra special device as far as we're concerned, and it yields more insight and deeper insight. but a lot of what we're doing and how we're thinking about the business is how are we not just single threaded on that? We should have a unique advantage with when it's an ignite device, but our models should extrapolate that to the entire mobile ecosystem, including iOS. You know? I personally, in my personal you know, smartphone usage history, I was an Android customer and an iOS customer in different parts of you know of my of my life. I wasn't an entirely different person as I was switching between Josh Chandley: Right. Itai Cohen: ecosystems. So I think that's just to say there are signals that are coming from our on device advantage that are still helpful and applicable if they're probabilistically used for our entire footprint. Josh Chandley: I think that for non-performance UA, I can see how the ignite data is very powerful. and the breadth it gives you is it it's a value add. my perception is that what you're saying is you're still competing on fairly level playing fields with like the Molochos and the liftoffs of the world when it comes to performance UA. but not being single threaded, could be a real value add for what new sources of demand need. it could also be more of a position that you're forced into because you just can't beat AppLoven or Meta on depth. So you you're on the inside. Is this a conviction play or is this the the only move you have? Itai Cohen: There's very strong conviction behind this play. And you know, just to give you a couple of examples on why we are very strong believers that the breadth of demand is incredibly valuable. So one is we're gonna still compete for, you know, first impression in the session, where you would typically see all of those more aggressive user acquisition ads paying top dollar rates. And we're playing that game and we're using our proprietary data to optimize for that outcome. It's absolutely foundational for our business. And we're in that space. But we also know that there's there are diminishing returns for those types of ads the deeper you go in the session. Impression two, three, four, five in the session, engagement would typically taper off. And not only that, because we know that those ads do tend to be a little bit more aggressive, a little harder to exit from, and so on. You actually start seeing some retention implications come from that, right? But what if I was able to, instead of showing you another highly aggressive UA ad, I can show a premium brand ad that is engaging, that is actually contextually making the app in which it appears to see more premium, and we're monetizing the user, you know, creating a positive experience, and we're less likely to cause that churn. So there's you know the invisible alternative cost of some of these highly performant ads that we actually take into account as we're building the breadth of our business. Josh Chandley: your your comment on trading off CPM for retention. It's a tough one because performance marketing, performance creatives, there are higher friction, right? let's let's come back to that answer in in a in a second. I really want to explore that. first, what I want to talk about is the platform that you guys have. In 2021, then Digital Turbine made three acquisitions in two months. Ad Colony. fiber appreciate. It's over a billion dollars in spent. Walk me through the technical integration thesis at the time. like what was what was supposed to plug into what? Itai Cohen: Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And I think the stuff that we've already started talking about, that was the thesis all along. Meaning it wasn't just about what technical components do these acquisitions provide DT that that were previously missing. It's how do I access a larger TAM? And how am I able to monetize both devices and apps? How am I able to service both performance campaigns that are for app install performance campaigns that are not for app install outcomes and then pure brand campaigns. How do I access the entire mobile opportunity and and service all of it? So that was the strategic thesis behind all of it. And as part of that, yeah, integrations are inherently challenging. And you know we definitely had our fair share of of challenging chall challenging, you know, periods and then also Internally just figuring out what is the path that leads to the optimal outcome for our customers. And our customers in in the case of DT, that could be a device partner, that could be a brand and an agency, or that could be an app developer. We're talking three different languages here and servicing three different constituents. And so figuring out the right path. it's not necessarily an easy one. And I don't know that I would recommend to everybody go ahead and make three acquisitions in two months and then try to integrate them all at once. But The thesis was there in place and that's what we're starting to see materialize today as one platform is the ability to connect the mobile ecosystem across those different layers and across those different types of advertisers to drive those different outcomes through this centralized execution layer. Josh Chandley: so i in in one line, what was supposed to plug into what? Itai Cohen: what was supposed to plug into what? You had appreciate bringing to the table direct performance campaigns, the ability to just traffic those, right? For the programmatic in-app environment. You had the ad colony piece that brought relationships and access to brands and agencies across different global markets. And you had the fiber component bringing one of the most robust SDKs in the ecosystem that plugs into A lot of apps and provided a very robust supply footprint. All of these complemented the existing on-device asset, which also had its own direct advertising business, right? That DT was already working with a lot of app developers on app distribution in the context of the on-device business. So when you when you make acquisitions, you're really thinking about technology and relationships. That's what you're the book of business. Those are the two assets that you are fundamentally trying to. you know, realize Josh Chandley: choir. Itai Cohen: the potential of. Right. and and so across all of that, that's how it all comes together to both expand the TAM, expand the capabilities, but also be able to leverage existing assets in new ways. Josh Chandley: Where did that integration land? Itai Cohen: it's it's where we you know, the conversation that we're having today, and it's still an evolving process and you know an an extended effort over a number of years, but where it landed is that we're increasingly seeing the fruit of DT being one platform that is servicing multiple audiences. So our on device partners are now benefiting from more types of demand than just app install demand. Our brand advertisers are able to access both a massive app you know SDK footprint, but then also unique placements on directly on devices. And our app partners were monetizing better, but then we're also offering them more opportunities to get on devices and acquire users across in-app and on device placements. So to me, that's where you know that was the strategy all along, and that's where it's landing. And at at the point that we're in right now, it's just about tightening the execution around it and expanding the availability of all opportunities to all parties. Josh Chandley: So you're you're you're telling me that D T is one platform now after five years. we still or you still report ODS and AGP separately. these businesses, you know, they have very little in common. the on-device business isn't even impression-based. and the the way they express demand is very different. where is this genuinely one thing? And and where is it kind of two or three or four things I wearing one logo or like dancing the same song, but they're their own dancers. Like where help me help me contextualize Itai Cohen: Yeah. Josh Chandley: this. Yeah. Itai Cohen: Absolutely. so first of all, you know, we we shouldn't just conflate the way that we report to the street with the way that we necessarily experience the platform in itself. you know, investors are an additional audience that we have in a very active conversation with, and we need to help them understand our business. And as part of that, we want to highlight to them where we have unique And differentiated assets, and that's reflected in which numbers, you know, and how we try to explain and articulate the growth in our business and the progress in our business. And so to that end, yes, we are still reporting in ODS and AGP. But what the way that we're running the business is increasingly getting intertwined between those two aspects. So just as an example, when you are an advertiser today running with DT, you sign one contract. You don't have multiple contracts. You don't, you know, decide if you're gonna just run on an on-device inventory or you're just gonna run an in-app inventory. And by the way, that's true whether you are a brand or an app developer or even a brand that's executing through executing through an agency. We're gonna give you the full breadth of opportunity to run through DT. You're gonna sign one contract and we're gonna make it a pretty seamless experience for you to also onboard and execute the campaign across the different supply, you know, endpoints that we offer. Josh Chandley: The the supply is still fundamentally different to some degree, though. Like so when I think about as an as an advertiser, taking off taking off my ad publisher hat and putting on my ad, my demand, my performance UA buyer hat. the the inventory you're offering me with DT Ignite is you know relatively less targeted and it behaves in a certain way. And then the The the the inventory you're offering me with DT ads, I mean it's it's very targeted, and it's very customized, and it and Itai Cohen: Mm-hmm. Josh Chandley: it it matures in a different way. And so the the way I would bid on on those are different. Let's say let's for an example, a pre-install might mature post day seven or mu post day twenty-eight very differently. than a targeted in app ads. And so to some degree, you know, those will always behave somewhat differently, right? Itai Cohen: Yes. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. because ultimately you also have a ROAS goal that you're trying to serve. And that's really what you care about as an app advertiser. And so if you give us that ROAS goal, we're gonna optimize for that and we're gonna use DTIQ, our intelligence layer, to optimize for that goal across the different touch points. Now that doesn't mean that the optimization is identical. across each touch point because to your point they have different user dynamics and different user behaviors. So the way that the you know ROAS curve might look is maybe different, but we know what goal we are after and how to optimize against those two different layers. You can almost equate that to, you know, when you're running campaign with Meta or Google, you might be showing up in very different ad formats in de very different places across their entire ecosystem. But still ultimately they're optimizing towards your single ROAS goal for that campaign. And so this is not necessarily something that's completely foreign to the ecosystem in the way that we're thinking about it. We're just applying it to our assets and our unique capabilities. Josh Chandley: Can I apply separate ROAS goals to like pre install campaigns versus targeted in app ads? Or does it have to be the same goal? Itai Cohen: We ultimately want to drive profitable user acquisition for you. Now, if you're going to say, I am seeing such a large divergence between those two ecosystems that the the the fine like the financial reality is just different across those campaigns, then yes, obviously we can execute across those things differently. But the thing is what we are building is exactly the platform that will eliminate the need to do that. Right. And it'll eliminate the need to do that because ultimately we know how users engage and behave with apps at large on our, you know, across our ecosystem. And so just to to give you a more kind of brass tax example, you might see that the return on investment curve for the on-device component takes a little longer than what you would typically see in an in-app campaign, right? Like l ROAS day seven. Is lower on the on-device side than it is on the in-app side. Okay, well that's okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the on-device aspect isn't working and you should stop running on it. Or it doesn't even necessarily mean that you should be lowering the bid and reducing your scale on that activity. What it might mean is that we would be adjusting budgets and adjusting targeting to maximize the performance towards your ROAS goal across our footprint. And then that optimization might change as time goes by. So but come day thirty, when more of your cohorts have matured and we're seeing more performance and more insight, we actually reallocate and continuously and dynamically change that allocation between those different channels. Josh Chandley: And so let's talk about AGP, the in app business. Last quarter it grew, I believe 56% year over year to 56 and a half million. But but walking it back in 2022, revenue was 72 million, and that revenue, you know, it declined over three years, about 50% to 36. A lot of that, I believe, was unwinding ad colony. the rebound is is very impressive. but it still leaves you below where you were. four years ago. And so is today's fifty seven million, is it a fundamentally different business or is it a a stabilized repaired version of the same business? Cause like those imply very different futures and visions. Itai Cohen: Yeah, and I actually I love that you're looking at it this way, because that's how we're looking at it, right? Like you you can sometimes take a snapshot of like this quarter versus the same quarter last year, and like amazing, great growth, but you also have to be honest with yourself about the journey. And I would say that, you know, job's not done. The fact that we're driving this growth right now doesn't mean that we've reached the the ultimate outcome. And the fact that we have a frame of reference from just a few years earlier that is even higher. Just goes to show there's so much more that we can do. so we're excited for this growth, but we're also not satiated just yet. the the to to kind of talk to that other point that you were asking about, very different dollars between 2022 and today. Not the same business. if you look back to 2022, that's literally six months post-acquisition. Right? And so really what you're looking at is just The very simplistic summation of revenue generated by individual companies at the very beginning of their integration journey. And integrations are challenges, are challenging. So we went through a few challenging years as part of that. And we had to make some sacrifices in order to provide a better platform and a better service to our customers. One example of that would be you talked about unwinding the Ad Colony platform, Ad Colony also had its own SDK prior to the acquisition. Right, so we had two. And we've made the decision very early in the journey that developers should only integrate once with DT. And advertisers should only plug in one way to DT and access all of our inventory. Now you have revenue running on both of those SDK footprints. You have connections, both demand side and supply side, happening through both of those SDKs. We actually see other examples in the ecosystem today of what it entails to say goodbye to one of those assets. As you're trying to scale another. We just decided we're gonna do the right thing, we're gonna front load this effort. And you know, obviously we hope that we would be able to sustain revenue to a better extent than we could. And you know, that was very difficult. But we are seeing the fruits of that effort today because now we're growing the right way. When dollars are being spent with DT, they're accessing anything that we can offer them. And and that's you know, that that was ultimately. the whole strategy hold along. Josh Chandley: And so the argument is it's very different dollars now. Like how how are the dollars different? Is it the margins? Is it the growth? Is it the customer stickiness? what makes this business such a better business than it was before? Itai Cohen: Dollars are being spent with DT now, it's much easier to scale them. You don't have to configure campaigns separately across a bunch of different systems and then track them separately. And you know, ultimately at the end of the quarter, when we report to the street, we will accumulate everything and report on one number. But operationally, it used to take us 128 different steps to configure a campaign across our entire supply opportunity. Right, that's that was day one. Josh Chandley: Hundred and twenty eight steps. Itai Cohen: Yes, that was day one at at DT. Right? Because you have to configure it on this platform and the other platform into this supply source and the other supply source. And so it was highly manual, it was prone to error, and it was very long. So the time that it takes you to launch a campaign across everything, and then obviously you have the learning period and so on, like the just the time horizon for how how long it takes for a campaign. to get enough feedback and start scaling and so on was unreasonable. And that's what we worked through. Josh Chandley: How many steps is it na yeah. How many steps is it now? Itai Cohen: I haven't counted in a while and I don't know. We we're still we're still tracking it internally, but it became from like something that was front and center for our business because this was like, okay guys, this that's what we have to fix now. It it became a much smaller issue. And I would say it's also been now that was a primary driver of efficiency. Now we are prioritizing other other drivers of efficiency across our our business. but it's still very much how do we make it one thing? How do we make it simple and how do we make it scale? Josh Chandley: So we're talking like Itai Cohen: So, you know, it could be the same advertiser, it's just a completely different experience, both externally and internally, to work with us. Josh Chandley: humor me on this step. So are you talking down like an order of magnitude? Are you talking down like more than fifty percent? Like like roughly speaking. Itai Cohen: Yeah. When we when we launched a focused effort to improve on this you know on this specific efficiency lever, it took us about a quarter to get it down to a hundred, right? So that's a substantial step forward from a hundred and twenty eight to a hundred Josh Chandley: Okay. Twenty percent, yeah. Itai Cohen: yeah, just about like twenty, twenty-five percent lower. Great. Do we take a victory lap? Not really, because it's still a hundred steps. It's it it's now it's now far fewer. But I think it's not only and and by the way, it's fewer because again, we have migrated campaigns away from legacy systems and we're trafficking them based on this is all backend effort. This is not what you're going to see and experience as an advertiser. This is in service, might end up being eventually you know, further along in a journey. We might actually decide to expose it on a self-serve basis, and that's really how we were thinking about it. If one day we would want to offer self-serve campaign capabilities, the the platform needs to be as clear, clean and efficient as it can be from day one and how we're thinking about it. But right now it's our own internal tool Josh Chandley: And so really what you're talk what sorry, go ahead. Itai Cohen: and it's yeah, I was just gonna finish to say and say the right now it's our own internal tool and it's is significantly more efficient and covers the different use cases that we're trying to support. Josh Chandley: Essentially you've spent the last several years taking multiple fragmented flywheels, like feedback loops, and and streamlining it in your words down to like one single data flow. Itai Cohen: Well, that absolutely from a data standpoint, yes. So on top of this operational component we talked about, where if you're a publisher, you should integrate just one SDK. And if you're an advertiser, you should just sign one contract. And if you're an a campaign manager at DT, an ad ops person, you should have a very streamlined way to launch and scale that campaign. Those are all, you know, operational technological layers. And then yes, there's also the data aspect. We have different systems yielding different signals that were all built by different companies so they had their own individual data repositories. And how do we connect that so that we train our models across all of the signals generated by users across our ecosystem? So that that was a very, very important point of how we enable DTIQ to have access to all of that data. Josh Chandley: I think that that settles the internal question. So here's the external, the external one. Here's the external one. your edge is seeing across apps on Android. That's what the differentiates you the most, in my view, from Unity, Moloco, and Lytoff. But Google owns Androids. They see everything that you see natively, you know, for free. Why doesn't this thesis belong to them? Itai Cohen: so I don't have detailed knowledge of the extent to which Google's actually using Android signals to inform what they're doing for user acquisition or other types of advertising. I think there are examples where you can see that they're actually doing something like that because any Android device comes preloaded with Google Apps, right? So they're using the operating system advantage. for the benefit of their own distribution, which ends up yielding additional touch points and creating more data for their ecosystem. And I think to that extent you can say what DT is doing is actually democratizing that opportunity to the entire ecosystem. We partner with our device partners to basically say, how about we enable any developer to be on the device from day one? And by doing that, we also gain valuable insights about those users and what they like and what they engage with. But I think Google has also all these other very powerful levers, you know, YouTube, Gemini, you know, search and Gemini are now kind of becoming the same thing, Gmail, Maps, your calendar app. And so they have the the Play Store, you know, let's not forget about that. So if I was in there, if I if I were a Google strategy person, I'd probably look at those assets and you know, I would have a different thesis too. I think that for us, our thesis is that we democratize what is available to some other companies in the ecosystem, not only Google, to the entire ecosystem. And by doing that, we actually have a unique vantage point on Android devices and then the advertising ecosystem at large. Josh Chandley: Democratizing access. That's a that's a that's probably the most honest answer you could give. it does feel a little bit Like the the differentiation benefits from Google choosing not to compete here. Is that right? Is that moat somewhat made of somebody else's priorities? Itai Cohen: I think that it's not just the priorities because Google has an a massive app install business. It's not like they're not competing in that space. They're competing in the way that works best for their strategy. and so I'm not going to debate whether or not that should be closer to our strategy or not. but but I think the specific side to what we are trying to do is not necessarily dependent on what Google decides to do. It's actually how do we connect the ecosystem? In other words, Our device partners have been disintermediated from the app ecosystem. They supply the devices, they supply the network that keeps everybody connected to the internet, but they don't benefit from the monetization that's happening on the internet at all. And so what we did is we said, you can have a seat at the table, but knowing that they will never directly work with the entire developer ecosystem. So we supply both the relationships and the technology, you know, to the point that we made earlier about what drives strategic thinking and MA and all that. So we built the technology, we've established the relationships, and then we give our device partner a seat at the table, and that's really the moat for our strategy. Those are enterprise grade companies that power the mobile ecosystem. And so they deserve to have a say on what's available in the mobile ecosystem. And we enable that for them. Josh Chandley: And so really what you're saying is you're you're creating you're making actionable their supply and then you're bringing the demands. okay. Itai Cohen: Exactly. Josh Chandley: let's talk about who's showing up with those ad dollars, especially for for the in-app component. What I see is that the in the in-app ad networks, they're all reporting brand and e-commerce as a as a growth rate. You know, you're up 70%, AppLovin's up 28% from their December peak. No one's putting a dollar on it. Which often means that the base is too small to be material yet. So size it for me. You know, brand it it does seem like a rounding error on in app today. Can it be a two to three billion dollar business in twenty thirty? Itai Cohen: Okay, interesting question, and let me try and approach it from two different layers, bottoms up and top down. Okay? Josh Chandley: Okay. Okay. Itai Cohen: So starting with bottoms up, and this is where you know we're publicly traded company. I can't dis disclose, you know, certain data signals and data points, but I can tell you that brand represents a double-digit percentage of our business. So it's not some negligible aspect that we don't even think about. It's meaningful and that's why we actually provide these updates about the growth trajectory of that business, which ties to the top down aspect of it. I'm gonna throw a couple of numbers at you and then we'll Josh Chandley: good. Itai Cohen: we'll talk about what what they mean. Okay? So and this is just because it's fresh in my in my head. I did a a little bit of like ecosystem re research a little while ago. So according to e Marketer, they estimate the entire mobile advertising ecosystem worldwide. At $670 billion, right? It's massive. Just as a frame of reference, that's 10 to 12x bigger than CTV globally right now, which is like all the rage, and everybody's talking about the CTV advertising opportunities, as they should. It's a really valuable opportunity. But I feel like mobile often just gets overlooked and people don't fully recognize the orders of magnitude of how scalable it is. But so now you have this $670 billion number, you gotta break it down. So about $100 billion, you can park to the side because it's mobile web. It's the smaller component, but it's still, let's call it just out of reach for this conversation for us. We we care less about mobile web traffic. And so the in-app component is still north of a half a trillion dollars, right? It's about $570 billion if you do that math. Let's d double-click again. What's the app install component of that? According to Apps Flyer, it's about $80 billion, $110 if you also include retargeting. So let's include retargeting and say $110 billion. Okay? Great. So if that's the global market size, that still still means that non-app install ads are bigger in terms of market opportunity at about a one to four ratio from app install ads. The last number that I'll throw at you is that SensorTower recently estimated gaming ad monetization globally at about twelve billion dollars. And you know full well from your own experience as a publisher, you're not seeing enough brand ads as much as you want. So I can I can tell you that, yeah, out of the half a trillion dollar opportunity where, you know, f four fifths of it, give or take, is not app install, you're not getting enough of that as a developer. So, can it be a meaningful business? The market opportunity definitely says it is. Now you have to ask yourself, where are all those dollars going? And they're probably going into walled gardens because you don't see them, right? You only see this $12 billion Josh Chandley: Yes. Itai Cohen: opportunity predominantly comprised of user acquisition ads. So, okay, even if they're going into walled gardens, I think the one insight that we learned from the last couple of years off of the growth of companies like App Love and even Unity with Vector and so on and so forth. Is that unlike the traditional advertising, digital advertising world in web, where walled gardens had a stranglehold on advertiser spend, the mobile budgets are somewhat more fluid. They're not as locked behind walled gardens. Otherwise, you know, and and AppLoven has proven that thesis for app install budgets, right? Because those budgets The the ecosystem grew, so the pie got bigger and everybody was growing along with it, but they also won share. Who do they win share from? And I think that that opportunity in the mobile space is applicable to more types of budgets. So I think that that's where I bel we we have conviction that this could be a meaningful business. I can't speak to what share of the entire business it'll be. We're huge believers that mobile user acquisition is the lifeblood of the ecosystem. And so that's always going to be a very, very important component, but there's massive upside. And a lot of it is underutilized and under monetized today. Josh Chandley: Yeah, as a as a as a pub who monetizes with ads, I I selfishly, you know, I want as much unique demand flowing into my inventory as possible. as especially demand that you're, you know, you're characterizing as, you know, like better user experience, lower friction. These are all for me, these are universal goods, good things. And so the ability to find impressions that performance UA can't value, this is This this is just something I want to see happen. There's my you know, there's this is my bias. I know I want this to work out. but the tell is, you know, it's hard to break out the base. so I guess Leave me with this. will DT be breaking out brand revenue by twenty thirty, or is it a nice story that's still not being broken out? Itai Cohen: restating how you are reporting your financial results is a much more involved process than just this kind of conversation. You know, we'll have to go through a strategic conversation about it and make a decision on how we would want to do that and make sure that it helps investors and then have to go through audits and so it's a whole involved process on what we will or will not disclose. I, you know, I don't have the crystal ball on that. But I will say, you know, we believe in the power of that ecosystem. And not only that, we believe in the power Of breadth, of being able to find the right product and right ad and right creative to show to a user in the right moment along their journey. And that moment can be inside of an app, within a session. It could also be at a different point in time as they're engaging their device. Again, just to give you a little bit more of a like a straightforward example, as the device gets older, you would you would have to assume there's less available space. on the device. So fewer new apps will find space on it. You have to take app apps out to put new apps in. But brand advertising doesn't take any space. Right? So this is just one way of thinking about what is a higher likelihood outcome to drive for this specific consumer. And there are more and more examples of that. To your earlier point about you like believing in this and wanting to see this, I think part of the you know what's been a limiting factor is The developers don't necessarily even have the tools to think about optimization in this way. But I believe that even with the tools available today, they can. So to give you an example of what I mean by that, hybrid monetization is getting more and more popular. We see more and more apps monetizing with in-app purchase and ads at the same time. Now, one of the things that this brings about is you're very sensitive for your in-app purchase whales. To not be stolen off of your game to a very similar game by ads that you're showing in the game. And so typically what a lot of developers do is a you know on-off switch. They would segregate their whales and not show any ads. But what if you could partner with companies that could apply the relevant filters so that you can still monetize those users even when they're not making in-app purchases? You might monetize them less frequently because you also try to preserve a certain user experience for them. But You could apply more nuance to how you're thinking about it. And you can still apply a hybrid monetization model even for whales. And they might not even have a negative reac reaction to it because they still want the rewarded video benefit. You just don't want them to see another gaming ad in that rewarded video. But if if they see an ad for HM or, you know, you know, some PNG product or a a Q s quick service restaurant, that doesn't cannibalize on your business at all. Josh Chandley: you're selling me the dream here, What we're what we're talking about is, you know, better user experience, and and valuing impressions at a higher, higher number than we are right now, especially impressions, you know, like four or five, six, because that's where performance demand starts to struggle. And so I wanna I wanna pressure test that a little bit and see how DT can actually deliver that. because brand brand price is differently than performance demands. Like let's say I'm Procter and Gamble and I want to market diapers. Where can I beat performance demand for impressions that I I couldn't win before? And like, what's the data that you're able to use to help them outbid that mobile game ad? Itai Cohen: Okay, great. if we're looking at it as a pair impression basis, which is actually I think historically that's been the view, and that's part of why I think developers have struggled to fully realize the potential of non-app install revenue. Because if you're looking at it at a pair impression basis, CPMs for those brand ads tend to be lower or lower. I actually think that diapers are great example for because for the period of time that the household is consuming diapers, it's actually a fairly expensive household expenditure. so so you as a exactly Josh Chandley: Yeah. The diaper the diaper ARP Dow is high. Yeah. Yeah. Itai Cohen: and and so you as a consumer you're worth a lot to Procter and Gamble if if they're trying to compete with other diaper brands. But the problem that they have is that they don't have the same closed attribution loop as an app install business. They don't know if they show you the ad, did you go and Into the supermarket and buy their diaper brand specifically because he saw that ad or not. So they have to apply other modeling and other also campaign configurations to maximize on-target reach and then measure the efficacy of the campaign differently than just using an MMP to count the installs. And so, yes, CPMs are lower. But I think there are a couple of other aspects that come into play here. One is Not all users on the first impression are that valuable for app install ads. So companies that show only app install ads will just show those by default, but their bids are not going to be very high. And that's where brand bids are competitive. It's not like they're, you know, orders of magnitude lower. They're just lower than on average, but they're still attractive. And so that's one aspect where they can compete very effectively for a lot of options. Secondly, They compete better the deeper the session goes. Because brand advertisers care about frequency capping. They don't want to actually bombard you with the same exact creative again and again and again because they know that there is diminishing returns. And they're basically playing a f paying a flat CPM. There's no CPI on the other side that will that will actually make that formula work for them. But they don't have as strong of an opinion on the specific number of impression being impression one, two, or three. Right. They they just want to get to the right user. That's what they really care about. And so if that user now has seen two, three gaming ads or user acquisition ads, and now they will see their first diaper ad as impression four in the session, that is totally fine. And that's where they again are very competitive in their rates. Josh Chandley: And I I think you're actually drawing the battle line really well. because the pitch here is that you know, diverse demand and low friction experiences make the session better. and you know, you're correct. as a publisher, I would probably accept a you know, a let's say a five or a 10% reduction in my CPM if it increased how many ads I could show by 20% or 25%, either because the session duration increases or my retention increases. But what I can't get past is in Today's mediation environment, session quality isn't prioritized in the auction. We can only hope good demand wins. How do you make ad quality a real structural advantage, not just a nice a nice story that the higher bid still overrides? Itai Cohen: Yeah, I think so this is where D T and platforms like us have the responsibility to drive that to be a successful model. But I think there's also accountability on the side of the developer. And that's where you know you're right to say that on its surface, the typical mediation auction today doesn't take session quality into account. And it doesn't even offer out of the box analytics to quantify that. But I don't think that that's out of reach for developers to quantify. You can actually run an analysis on ad load versus session length. And you can s actually run an analysis on the extent to which users churn after seeing an ad. You know, what to what extent am I seeing a significant drop off after that? I think those are very practical steps that developers can take today. And then how do you action against that is already now up to you. Because you can decide that you might put different filters or build a different auction, different waterfalls. You you provide different access to certain impressions if you're detecting a real retention or engagement drop-off as a result of how your current ad strategy is constructed. So I think that there are ways to do that. It's not necessarily made inherently convenient by you know mediation platforms today, but it's not impossible to do. ads are actually Potentially a segmentation tool for developers. That's how they should be thinking about their optimization. You shouldn't look at all of your users as one clean slate. And it's interesting to start thinking in that way as a developer because advertisers and advertising platforms are already doing that. There's a data asymmetry between how developers are looking at their audiences and how advertising platforms are looking at the exact same audiences. They actually, the advertising platforms, know more a lot of times about your users than you do because they've seen them across a bunch of different apps and they know what they like or don't like and they've priced them previously in a bunch of different auctions. So they bring all of that data into how they're behaving in the auction and they don't take into consideration if that's an optimal outcome specifically for you in that auction. Because they look at it in aggregate across you know the different opportunities that they got to engage with that user exactly. Josh Chandley: That's not their business. Yeah. Itai Cohen: Exactly. But you actually have the responsibility of saying, I care about how my audiences engage with ads and what this does to their retention, what this does to their monetization potential, so on and so forth. But then outside of that, where we play a role specifically, again, another very straightforward example, not all markets are as easy to run user acquisition profitably. But those markets around the world still have brands advertising for them. Right? People in i people in markets where it's hard to run profitable user acquisition, they still buy diapers. and so and so that's where those ads can actually become increasingly competitive and increasingly relevant. So if you also take a s a step back and look at it globally and optimize not only based on user segments, but also based on regions where maybe your monetization is not adequately optimized because it's single-threaded on a lot of app install ads that actually don't have very attractive bids, but still carry that aggressive user experience. And so yeah, there are more more than one opportunity to make this a bigger component of how you monetize. Josh Chandley: Yeah, the thing is the vast majority of what you said I agree with, which is a polite way of saying I don't totally agree. I I I think the like especially outside of T I what I would call T one English speaking or tier one geos, one of the fastest growing markets for ad monetization remains being, you know, India. And actually, like I I believe Censor Tower had it at something like seventy percent of of gaming revenue is actually ad revenue in India. For exactly that reason. It's hard to run profitable UA, but there is non-performance demand that exists. They're still completely normal human beings. It's just that the performance demand aspect isn't as successful in that one part of the planet. and I also think that Add load versus session length, there are things that publishers have to do to to take part in to take ownership of their own LTV. to take those trade-offs between making as much money in this moment or this session and from this player overall providing the best experience and makes the most revenue. I think the thing is though, that we don't really build our own auctions, at least in mobile gaming, which is a huge part of the ecosystem. I would say that mediators like Max are probably the most important pieces of ad infrastructure in mobile gaming. they're they and they're the most influential. Itai Cohen: Mm-hmm. Josh Chandley: and they don't offer Max does not offer filters. In fact, some of the host networks for these mediators are accused of having some of the more aggressive ads with lots of taps and forced to go to the app store and things like that, which is causing churn. and so all a a game developer or an app developer can see in in in that scenario is this is the ads that bid the most. Do you want it or not? And so that forces us into this situation where performance ads they they want the user's time right now. And so that's why that first impression is so valuable. Because when I first opened a game, that first impression, that's the one where I'm telling you, hey, I got 10, 20 minutes to play a game right now or to use an app. And so a performance game, they want that impression. But by impression 10, When most of my free time to play a game has been consumed, that value is objectively lower. And we start to see brands come in and give those amazing experiences that are usually not three taps. They're they're usually, you know, not 20 to 30 seconds to get through an interstitial. they're they're much more digestible, lower friction, a better UX. It feels like one of the battles of that's more less rosy but more realistic. Is brand is in this slow grind from trying to get from you know winning impression ten to winning impression five and to one day winning impression three and two and maybe even one. Is that a a a fair framing in your mind of the the kind of difficult reality that we're working through right now? Or do you think I'm being too negative? Itai Cohen: I I don't think you're being too negative. I think you are describing the reality that you are seeing through the lens of a game developer who you know has a very clear picture of the ad experience at a macro level in their environment. But if you kind of flip the the lens and I'll look at it from the campaign side, the y you just made the point that performance campaigns care about that first impression. Literally as part of their models, right? Like that's Josh Chandley: Yeah. Itai Cohen: they target that event when Josh Chandley: Yes. Itai Cohen: ne this user just came up. I got an ad request or a bid request from the mediation layer for this user for the first time today. That's part of the consideration of how I would price that auction. It's not as strong of a consideration for the brand campaign. And also, if you were to think about what they are trying to achieve. It's not necessarily graduating to the first impression in the session. They just compete more equally across session depth. Right? Whereas on performance ads, you would see a much bigger variance as the session depth grows. So what the brand cares about is the the the successful delivery of the budget on the target audience. If we were really in a reality where all we're getting is impression ten in the session and we're trying to you know, claw our way to impression eight and then five and so on and so forth. We would have had a lot of situations where we can't actually spend the full budget because we're not getting enough impressions. That's not the case. There are plenty of first impressions that we're still winning because they're not as attractive for the performance buyers. And then there are subsequent impressions that fill the budget because brands remain kind of equally competitive as long as you're not overreaching on like frequency cap and and other targeting parameters. Whereas There's just a wider variance on who's gonna participate in a later auction when it comes to the performance buyers. So that's why you're kind of seeing that dynamic. I think on the on the other point that you've made about having the tools and controls in place, it just it requires more work today. Platforms are not making it easy. But I think that you can still decide that you're gonna set up a completely separate ad placement on your app that you're gonna monetize differently and see what is the impact of that. And maybe you'll segment how you're funneling traffic to Ad placement A versus add placement B. But that is a very interesting A-B test to see what is the monetization and ECPM to retention trade-off that you're seeing if you're trying a test like that. Most monetization managers are conditioned to just think about like, I can't have the numbers drop tomorrow morning. I have a revenue target, I have a monetization target that I'm managing. They're not accountable for retention. So it's almost like a conflict of interest. Between the monetization manager that's saying, you know, I just want to see the number of dollars growing day to day, and the product manager that's saying, okay, but if you stop abusing users with those ads and you know, squeezing the lemon for all it's worth in terms of dollars, in thirty days I'll prove to you that retention's better. Right? It's a tomorrow morning versus thirty days from now battle internally for for a lot of developers. Josh Chandley: It is, it is, and brand is still, I would say not really part of the conversation in the same way for developers, whether you're an app or a a game. My my sense is that D T y you think that it's gonna become much more of a force to be reckoned with over the next few years. Do you think brand demand is gonna be a commonplace thing we're talking about for for an app in a few years? Itai Cohen: I think we're already on that journey. Because what we're seeing today, and that's not just DT, it's it's actually happening across the ecosystem, is a couple of things. One is user acquisition remains critically important. But we are seeing more and more companies talking about the diversity between gaming and non-gaming. And sometimes they mistakenly refer to non-gaming UA as brand. It's not the same thing. But it's already being positioned as you know, if I'm running a campaign for something that's not a game, then it's a campaign for a brand. If the Ultimate outcome is an app install and it's measured by an MMP, it's kind of the same thing, right? But what I will give you know some credit to, some credence to the point that the creative might have a different experience on some of these different verticals. and then you have non-app installed performance, e-commerce, you know, all the direct-to-consumer brands that are trying to get people to spend on their brand instead of the enterprise incumbent brands in their category. So there's a lot of that. And that brings more diversity, but it's still in the performance bucket. And then on top of that, you got pure branding ads that are driving awareness and brand consideration and brand affinity, and they're out actually measured against those outcomes. And so this is the the journey towards diversification is already happening. You are already seeing today more non-gaming ads than you did a year ago and two years ago. And those might still be predominantly non-gaming user acquisition ads. But that diversity is only going to continue and it's not just a DT thing, it's an ecosystem thing. And it's inevitable because the pool of money that's available outside of just gaming user acquisition is just so massive. And it and advertisers want to follow eyeballs. The biggest asset that you have is you got twenty minutes of someone's time every day. Right? That's most platforms don't get that. And and that's the the unique assets that the app ecosystem has. It's just the engagement coupled with a very robust advertising ecosystem that can allow brands and and app developers to reach those users. Josh Chandley: Love the taxonomy of demand that you has provided. I think that that is something that is very poorly documented in the industry. And that gradient from pure performance to literally pure, a true brand, what I would call, is I think an underappreciated kind of line to walk down change by change. and so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to be brave, For your unique data set and DT's unique position in the industry. Which one of those specific demand buckets do you think you're the most diff your differentiation allows you to serve the best relative to other networks? Itai Cohen: That's interesting. It's interesting because you're challenging me to think in ways that we don't actually think about this opportunity. And and it's because we are continuously improving our models. And DTIQ is not just one model. I think no company's model, regardless of its name, is just one model. They are all right. It's just a it's just Josh Chandley: Ayy. Itai Cohen: a sim a simplicity thing. You just want to talk about it as one thing. Josh Chandley: You're conceptualizing. Yeah. Yeah. Itai Cohen: Exactly, exactly. But but we have different models optimizing for different outcomes and we are getting signal over time or learning how to use signal in better ways towards those different outcomes. So it's almost impossible for me to predict at this point in time where we're going to see more success. I actually am a huge believer that DT has massive upside on the app install side of things that is still unrealized. Right. We spend just the last half hour talking brands and talking about non-gaming demand and talking about all those things. Yeah, differentiated, high quality, a ton of value to the ecosystem at large, a huge cam to go after. But I think we're far from hitting the ceiling on what we can do for just pure good old app install campaigns. And so it's really impossible to predict what will play a bigger role in our business. But if anything, if we talk again a year from now, I hope to be in a place Where we can demonstrate that this actually works for both, that we're progressing across both, you know, categories, so that what continues to differentiate DT is the diversity. And that's only becoming more evident to developers because as we improve both, we just win more auctions. So you're seeing more of our diversity come to come into play in your monetization. Josh Chandley: And that that is sort of an answer to my question, where the the the nature of being able to to deliver diverse demand is I think relatively unique, where I think a lot of the large networks that we we work with so closely today are very performance focused. And so that to me makes me kind of intuitively assume the the what signal and position you have in the market. while it it certainly improves performance, it might have even more of an advantage as you move more and more down the chain to brand. Is that a a fair interpretation? Itai Cohen: I think that it's a fair interpretation. I also think that it d very different businesses where if you hit a model step change in your performance models, your UA models, you see an overnight shift in how well you're servicing customers and how budgets scale, right? And so depending on the snapshot of when we speak next and when we kind of measure the outcome of this conversation, it could be that what we'll see is that step change saying, you know, hey, DT, you guys are Kicking ass on performance right now. And is that different in terms of our intention from my seat here today? No, it's the same thing that we're trying to do, but it scales exponentially once you hit those step changes in models. Whereas with brands, you still have to go and establish those relationships. You still have to go and win those campaigns and win those budgets. And that's been a really important effort that we've done to date. And I think that's where we've done a better job than most at establishing that for the mobile ecosystem. Right? So we've got a beachhead and now we can expand on that beachhead. but it's it's just very different business dynamics across those categories. Josh Chandley: It is. It'll be amazing to see how that plays out over the next year. but let's let's start to wrap up and and pull all the way back. breadth and brand kind of walking down that line away from just offering performance. is is that the bet you'd make even if you could dominate performance and depth today? Or is this the smartest way to play the hand? That you've been dealt in your unique position. Itai Cohen: I think that's the bet that I would play regardless. and it's it comes down to any business is more durable when it is not single threaded on one activity. And that is in essence what we are trying to do when we're connecting those different audiences. You know, we're trying to not be single threaded on just one type of supply. We're trying not to be sing single threaded on just type one type of data signal. And we're trying to not be single-threaded on one type of advertiser. So while obviously that comes with its own challenges as you're juggling priorities and you're trying to execute against different outcomes, I think we are in a robust enough company where we have established that foundation and that puts us in a much better position to scale. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that approach for a company that had a different starting point from digital turbine. DT started this journey. Already at a certain level of scale and access and relationships where we could place a bet in this direction. It's not for startups, it's for companies that are slightly more established and have relationships. We had the advertiser relationships, we had the SDK footprint. We needed to connect the technology. But that's definitely a conscious choice and a series of conscious choices with a lot of intention behind them that we're making. Josh Chandley: A year out, what's one thing a buyer could observe that says, This is working? I don't need a revenue number. I I'm looking for a mechanism that makes us believe this growth that you're showing will continue for many years. Itai Cohen: I would say across the board, not only for advertisers, but we can use that example, a year from now, you're using more of DT across more touch points. Now, for advertisers, that might be completely seamless because they run the campaign and it's just more successful than it was, and because it's reaching more user touch points across their journey. But even if you're an app developer, you're seeing more of DT in the auction. Maybe you're seeing more often that you are working with DT across both sides of the coin, you're monetizing and running UA with us. If you're a device partner, then you've expanded the use cases of Ignite that you're applying to your device footprint. I think that's to us is the sign of success, is that this platform is proliferating across all audiences that we're serving. Josh Chandley: That's the bet. in a year I think we'll know if that breadth is an edge. It's hi. Thank you for coming on. thank you so much. Itai Cohen: Thanks, Josh.