Latest / Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast / Renee McGregor - Scout Scar - When the Body Keeps the Score: Leading Dietician on athlete health on Walking, Healing, and Fuelling Life with Renee McGregor

Transcript

Renee McGregor - Scout Scar - When the Body Keeps the Score: Leading Dietician on athlete health on Walking, Healing, and Fuelling Life with Renee McGregor · Sukany4: The Walk and Talk Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're listening to Zakania the Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Zakania, and this is the show where we walk and we talk and we let the conversation go where it needs to go.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Before I begin, I want to give you a gentle heads up.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: In this walk and talk, we discuss disordered eating, sexual abuse, racism, and mental health.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: If any of those topics feel tender for you right now, please take care of yourself as you listen and come back to it when you're ready or share it with someone who needs to hear it today.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Today I walked at Gat Scar high above Kendall with Raini McGregor.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is Raini's go-to walk and one that she's very connected with.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Reamy is a leading sports dietitian with 26 years of clinical experience.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: She is nutrition lead for the English and Scottish National Ballet and one of the most respected voices in the UK on Reds' relative energy deficiency syndrome on the female athlete and on what it actually means to fuel a human life and not just a training plan.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: She's also author of six books, including her most recent Fuel for Thought.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: In this walk and talk, we get into what Reds actually is and why it can affect absolutely everyone, not just elite athletes.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about why Really believes the mindset is the most unreliable narrator we have.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about the industry noise around food and fitness, and why so much of it is designed to make us feel inadequate.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk about therapy, what it is, what it isn't, and why Rini believes it's one of the most important things any of us can do.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: But we also go somewhere deeper than all of that.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Reanie shares her own story and it is a generous, courageous, extraordinary thing to have shared.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Rini.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're here for this one.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Grab your boots or get cozy with a cover and let's walk.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Rini! Hi, Sekenya! How are you?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I am very good.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm good, thank you.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for inviting me to Scout Scar.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're very welcome.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: So why are we why are we at Scout Scar?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Scout Scar is my local, I guess, fell.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually where I realised I wanted to move up to Lake Straight.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, okay.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're I was probably like 2021, I think.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: We came up, Ewan and I came up.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Ewan being your partner.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Ewan being my partner, yes.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: We came up, and so he's he's from Lancaster originally.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so we'd come up to see his mum, and we'd already been discussing that we wanted to move up north again.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, he wanted to move back up north.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I have always wanted to move back up north because I went to university in Glasgow.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, always knew we wanted to move up north.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: But we couldn't decide on the location because I guess in my head I'd had like I want to go to Scotland because that's where I'm like, that's where I knew.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, well, I really like it around where I grew up.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so we actually came um to Kendall for the mountain festival.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so and just kind of thought, well, let's just go and explore.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because wherever we go, we always go for a run.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so we came and ran up here.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, we both looked at each other and were just like, I think this is it.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think Kendall is where we want to be.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was it, really.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: We then kind of from that point onwards, we were full steam in our search for a home in Kendall.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Which didn't take that long.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think like No, the market's quite buoyant up here, isn't it?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we moved, yeah, we moved a year later.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's pretty good going.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was pretty good.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think I mean I was in a position where I knew I knew why I knew I wanted to move.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'd already been kind of thinking about putting my house in the market.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it was all quite it was all quite easy from that point of view.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um the only bit with this difficult was like coming up regularly and looking at houses.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's a bit of a trick.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's no direct routes really, are there?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, not really.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, so that was it really.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know, every time we came up, we always did a run up here.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, just every no matter what season, it still appealed.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And even now, like I've been living here like nearly two years now, and I just I never get tired.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I never get tired of the view, I never get tired of running up here.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not as steep and technical as some of the big fells in in the actual lakes, yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I just I just love it.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, for me, it's and it's close enough to all of those as well, isn't it?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you get to see them.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the the beauty of being up here, is that you you get that view, you know.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Once you get to the mushroom viewpoint, you get that 360-degree view of of like Morecambe and the Yorkshire Dales and the Lake District, and I just think how magical is that.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that's why we're walking here because it's a it's a weekly destination for me at least once a week.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whenever I'm stressed out, uh-huh, whenever, like, say for example, if I've had a trip down to London for work, the first thing I do when I come back is come up here.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, do you because it just helps me to emotionally regulate.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I don't think people probably know that about me, in that I think a lot of people just think, you know, I'm this very kind of competent professional individual.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I get a lot of anxiety, okay, and I find definitely going into big cities really quite tricky, yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And especially the longer I'm away from big cities, the harder and harder I want to get.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so yeah, so whenever I when I get off the train, like as long as it's not pitch black, yeah, I'm always like, right, let's I need to get up there, I need to just I guess just breathe.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as as soon as I see the hills, I notice my breathing calms down.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so nice, and I just feel back to where I belong.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So where you belong, I love that.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I and it's a funny one, isn't it?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously I was born down in London, yeah, and I grew up in London, yeah, but I've never felt like I've belonged in London.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, isn't that funny?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: You found your spirit home.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Really have, really, really have, and I do, you know, I just I it's literally the best decision I think I've ever made in my entire life.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is choosing to move up here without a day.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: When you know, you just know, don't you?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you just do, 100%.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we're on this magical mystery tour through these little pathways, yeah, and I'm very much regretting wearing shorts.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be out of the the the nettles in a minute.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: It seemed like a good idea because I want to really max out sunshine.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sunshine and warmth and the darkness is coming.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was saying that this morning we took the dogs out this morning just in in the local woods.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I love autumn.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's 100% my favourite time of year.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I am actually quite enjoying it.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like yeah, I don't really like it when it starts getting dark at four o'clock, but I quite like it now that it's getting dark at nine.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, that feels normal.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: That feels like it's it's a good time to switch off.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: So uh that feels normal.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've got so used to the daylight hours.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm now like, can I can I drive at night time?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Can I drive in the dark?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: There is that.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: There is that's definitely the bit I don't like about um about the winter and is driving in the dark.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: I had this one year, I think I've said this before on the podcast, where I didn't track anything on Strava from October to January.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's like literally three months of just sitting on the sofa and watching Netflix.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm very good at doing that as well.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I'll always move.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, like movement, daily movement is something that I'm definitely there's no doubt about it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely need it you need it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do now.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: After that, after seeing it in data, I was like, oh my god, that was my life.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna be that girl, but yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I do, and I and when I say daily movement, I don't mean like extreme stuff.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, yes, I do love running and I do a lot of running, but I'm also very happy walking, yes, and you know, I'm happy doing yoga.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not I'm not this kind of mad adrenaline, adrenaline junkie, no, but daily movement being in nature is something that I do need, yeah, without a doubt.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I'm also very good at getting to the end of my day, particularly when I've had a long clinic day.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just needed to shut the world out, yeah, and that's when Netflix comes in to its own.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's what's your favourite Netflix slave on?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I watch so much rubbish, it's unbelievable.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is that kind of background TV you watch most of you?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess so.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think people again will be very surprised at the sort of stuff I watch, yeah, because they'll probably expect me to watch something highbrow, yeah, and I do not.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's no judgment here in the and I used to like I used to feel really like, oh my god, people are gonna you know make these assumptions about me.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I was talking to a really good friend of mine, yeah, who is an amazing uh psychologist.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we were chatting, and I and she said to me, she in passing, she said, Oh, I'm I'm watching, I'm watching this.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh my god, you watch that too?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And she watched the same yeah, so you were doing it to her, yeah, exactly.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, she was like, Oh, I was like, she's like, Yeah, well, what's the problem?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I just I've been so embarrassed about the fact that I watch really rubbish stuff, and then it's not like we need it really, yeah, because we know we I think like especially you know with the work I do, yeah.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, I'm a sports dietitian, yeah, and I I get to work with amazing athletes to help them improve their performance and reach their potential, yeah.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I also walk, I also work with a lot of individuals who have a much more complicated relationship with their bodies and with exercise.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's not always straightforward, yeah.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to look after yourself with all of that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, and I think you know it's a lot of responsibility, it's a huge responsibility, and it's and it's intense.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these individuals often they've been through a number of different services or a number of different uh you know professionals where they just haven't been heard, yeah.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess a big a big part of my job is to just let them be heard and to create this sort of psychologically safe space so that they can yeah, they can move forward, yeah, you know.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, so some days there are it's really hard, like you know, a particularly hard day last week where I had to you know I had to put the duty of care of the people I'm working with ahead of what their wants might be.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that's really difficult.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're having very hard conversations saying, I know that this is not what you want to hear, yeah, but I have a duty of care to you because I'm worried about your physical health, and I can't I can't let you go and run that race in the Alps, or I can't, you know, because it yeah, it puts you at high risk.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is also people's careers, isn't it?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, yeah, totally, and I think you know, I think that's yeah, it's very easy when in the moment to take that no as a as really hard, yeah, and not appreciating that actually if you did continue, and this is what I always find is you know, obviously some people don't listen to me and they carry on and they go and do what they are gonna do, and then they end up broken, yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's not like literally it's not it's not a fun part of my job, it's not I'm definitely not the fun, yeah, I'm not the fun police.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like people to go and have adventures and yeah, you know, yeah, and you you understand it because you do it yourself.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, 100%.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know what joy it brings me, I know, but I also know that you know I've also been on the the back end of not looking after my body and knowing how that in itself has a negative influence and impact, yeah, and how that can then also be really more detrimental because then you're like not able to do the things that you love at all.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's it's always that balance, you know, that we're trying to do that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and what's really interesting is I guess when people think you're a dietitian and it's about you know dietetics and nutrition, etc.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: They forget the psychological link, and actually, probably a bigger part of your job is it more so you're dealing with the psychology?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I mean I think that's nobody's fault.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, dietetics is very much being positioned as uh you know, as nutrition is being the kind of integral part of it, which it is a hundred percent.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you go to university, you are learning about the human body and you're learning about nutrients and you're learning about clinical conditions and how you need to how nutrition can play a big role in that.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess I mean I've been a dietitian now for 20 six, and I over the years have always understood that you can't really help someone change their behaviour around food if you don't understand human behaviour to stop.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I have spent a lot of additional time studying and understanding human behaviour.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got my like I've got my qualifications in being a mindfulness practitioner.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually do quite a lot of mindfulness within my sessions and teach people mindfulness, which is always yeah, is always very well received and often often very different in that people go, I wasn't expecting that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I booked in with you thinking you were gonna tell me what to eat, and actually we've done something completely different.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it all ties together, doesn't it?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because that will then support the eating journey.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is it, and and people can they do get it, they're like, Oh yeah, no one's ever really you know, I had I had a client in clinic last week, and she has quite a severe exercise dependency.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, exercise dependency being that you're obsessed with movement.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Movement, okay.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you you have to move in order to be okay.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of the condition you've set yourself.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I don't do this, I'm gonna be unhappy for the rest of the day or something like that.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's very comp it's like very compulsive, I guess.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um she she also had difficulties with body image and food because it's all kind of connected.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And when we were chatting and we did, you know, we were talking about actually, you know, intellectually, she's had a lot of therapy, so intellectually she's like, I know that what I'm doing is not supporting me, it's not helping me, but I just don't know how to change.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then we started talking about well, actually, it's looking inwards.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you have to look inwards and understand where where the fear comes from.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and only then can you really change your eating, and and by the end of it, she's like, she's like, I'm just I'm blown away because I kind of know that if this had been the approach with me 10 years ago, yeah, I wouldn't have suffered as much as I've suffered.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's it's an interesting because I think I do think even in you know, even in modern day, yeah, the way in which we work with people who've got addictions or eating disorders or mental illness, yeah, it's still we we tend to separate the mind and body.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think you can.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think and I guess that's also you know come back to why I think I feel so connected with nature, because nature's that opportunity for me to feel completely embodied.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's when I'm like I'm listening to my breath and I'm focusing on how it feels to touch the ground, and and I'm I'm I'm and then you go a bit further in and you go, okay, what what is going on for me today?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, am I my breathing's not as smooth as it should be.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean I'm anxious, you know, like it's I feel like it's really cues within your body, yeah.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're so good at leaving our bodies and living in our minds, yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yet our mind, I think, is the most unreliable narrator.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Agreed.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: The stories we tell ourselves, I say this all the time, and I think there was something I was listening to, I think probably a podcast on this topic about we believe what we tell ourselves, and actually, if we change that narrative, everything around us and about us changes, our body language, how we talk to ourselves, and the stuff we tell ourselves is is usually a lie.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you and I were talking about this this morning, like we're talking about you know, kind of very ingrained behaviours that we both have, okay, and how actually, you know, it's uncomfortable to try and be different.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to him, actually, let's change the narrative, let's talk about let's not talk about it being uncomfortable, let's talk about it just being unfamiliar.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because as soon as you say it's unfamiliar, yes, it's suddenly it's not that you're doing anything wrong, yeah, you're just doing something different.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's going to feel unfamiliar.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And until you repeat it enough times, yeah, it's going to feel becomes the norm.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like again, it's because as soon as you say something's uncomfortable, it's human nature to move away from that.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a red flag, isn't it?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, that sounds hard.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we, I think, I mean, I think, you know, from all the there's like quite a lot of science around it's there's a bias towards moving away from um uncomfortable feelings.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why so many of us will distract ourselves or or we will avoid, you know, whether that's using things like food and exercise, yeah, or even just scrolling on our phones, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like you think, I mean, I I know I'm really, really, really guilty of this.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: That sometimes I struggle with probably nothingness, yeah, and maybe boredom.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nothingness is a really good way to put it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because actually, a lot of our childhoods were about nothingness.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we still found joy somehow.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but I think then you and I don't know, it just becomes this like reflex to go to your phone, yeah, a scroll, and then within minutes you feel like shit.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you really do.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's exhausting.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I doing this?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a battery drain, isn't it?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Body battery drain, mind battery drain.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, so I think it's important for people to appreciate that that it's it's not you're not doing anything wrong, yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just human nature.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, I think there's so much shame and stigma in certain behaviours, right?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, like I don't I don't feel like I don't like anyone to feel shame or stigma because nothing to be human means we're gonna make mistakes.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: To be human means we're going to try and keep ourselves safe.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if if that means that unfortunately we learn slightly dysfunctional behaviours to do so, it's not it's not agreeing with those behaviours, but it's kind of acknowledging them going, okay, this is what I've done for so long, yeah, in order to feel okay.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but actually now I can see these behaviours are not supporting me, yeah, they're not serving me, and how do I change them?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's a lot of the work I do, yeah, is helping people to appreciate that there's nothing wrong with what where they're at, yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's not it's just not it's just not helpful.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's causing them more harm now than the original protection that it may have given them.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I guess there's a few root causes to that, aren't there?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there'll be a whole raft of root causes, but the primary ones are probably what we believe society expects of us, yes, and what we've been nurtured to believe are the rules of.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think culturally as well, depending on your background, depending on your experiences.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where you've experienced the world, how you've interpreted the world, what kind of personality you have.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know I'm a highly sensitive individual.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I'm a deep empath, which is both my superpower, but also my Achilles heel.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I find suffering, other people's suffering, so difficult to bear.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to make it better for everybody.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I can do that at the detriment of my own sort of thing.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: How did you manage that at the beginning of your career?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously you didn't, you weren't birthed and at the age of one recognize that you're an empath.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's taken a long time to realise that what was this impact to you when you were younger and starting your career and carrying this load without really understanding what it was?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Such a good question.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I'll be honest, for a very long time I thought there was something wrong with me.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I also didn't fully appreciate that nobody else felt like I felt.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm unique in this.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: But we're all guilty of that, aren't we?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: We all think until you talk to someone and share the load, we all convince ourselves that there's something wrong with us because we must be the only person feeling like this.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think I think you know that growing up in, you know, in an Indian family in the 80s and 90s, where it wasn't a very it wasn't the most accepting environment growing up and you know, seeing a lot of quite nasty behaviours towards myself and towards my family.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: I guess you you grow up kind of creating a wall around yourself, don't you?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, on top of that, I've had some very tricky experiences.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I sadly experienced sexual abuse when I was younger.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, yeah and then there was a lot of bullying at school, you know.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess all of those experiences, I guess I got to the point where I was like, well, there must be something wrong with me.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: All these things keep happening to me.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's to me.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's and I think I carried that narrative around with me for a long time.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, however, what I will say is when I got my first job as a dietitian, which was back in 1999, and I worked at St George's Hospital in London, I I really thrived.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: So like I I'd found life incredibly difficult, but suddenly becoming a professional, working in this very dynamic environment, but actually also feeling like I'd found my purpose, yeah, and I was good at my job, yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the first time in my life I realized I was good at something, yeah, and I I could hold on to it, and I guess then this confidence grew, yeah, and you know, I I yeah, I guess that really helped me to realise that I maybe there there was this is why I'm here, yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is so it's interesting because I I had an eating disorder when I was a teenager.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I guess in response to the sexual abuse and the racism and just the way in which I experienced life, I just felt insignificant, and I think I just wanted to demonstrate to the world that how I felt, you know.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd always said to myself control thing, isn't it?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, like when life feels messy, I needed a way to contain myself, and I didn't know I didn't really know any other way.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that it was a conscious decision, it was just that's what happened, and also we have limited parameters when we're young in terms of what we can control, so that is one of the top ones as well.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally I can reject this.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think for me it was more about trying to contain all the messiness that I felt within me.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: All the I think I've there was even now, like I mean, obviously I'm I'm 49 years old now, and it's only really been in recent years that I've I've actually had therapy about the abuse, which is why I'm so happy to not happy, but I'm open to talk about it.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it I realised that the emotions that were evoked in me as a result of the abuse definitely um you know they didn't make me feel good.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I felt violated, I felt unpure, I felt disgusted, I felt shame, I felt, you know, there were so many emotions that were very, very hard to deal with.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then on top of that, I went to a you know secondary school where I just didn't belong.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was the only Asian girl in the entire school, right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I came from a working class family whereas everybody else came from very affluent families, yeah, and I just didn't belong, and I was called so many names, and I was really ostracised and I felt alone, yeah.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess the eating disorder was I guess became my companion.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was something I could do, it was something that gave me a sense of self, yeah, but most importantly, it just helped me to feel nothing.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I felt like I contained everything, and so and I only know this now because of my work and doing therapy, like I didn't at the time, none of it made sense to me, yeah.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: None of it, yeah.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's really important to point out, isn't it?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that these things come to us when we're ready to receive them, yeah, and open to doing the work, and sometimes we never get there, and because it's too too painful to open that, and you know that once you open that can of worms, you're not going to be able to close it again.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And are you ready and are you resourced?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, and I think also what happened to me as a kid will continue to shape me as an adult.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, just because I have the knowledge and the understanding of what happened to me, it doesn't mean it doesn't still affect me.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I still have I still struggle with trust.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I still struggle with being vulnerable.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I sometimes the wall goes back up.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I wouldn't say that I don't I definitely don't use food or exercise or I don't punish my body anymore.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, that's the that just doesn't happen.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I definitely a hundred percent search that feeling of containment if that makes sense, like a comfort blanket, isn't it?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and the only way like now I do it is I just withdraw.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I have I and I'm not saying that's healthy, and it's definitely something I need to continue to do the work on, but yes, I'm I'm aware of it, and I but I think I want to kind of point that out to anybody who's listening who might be suffering with an eating disorder or some aspect of a mental illness at the moment, and to know that you know those behaviours are just the coping mechanism, yeah, they're not the problem.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: For me, the problem was very much about the experience I'd had and how that had left me feeling and how it dictated how I perceived myself, yeah.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that sense of not being good enough, that sense of being, you know, unpure, like I said, that sense of being, I don't know, just not good.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it that and you carry that inside yourself, not being able to even find the words to share that with anyone because then you're gonna share with the world that actually I'm a bit broken and you might not like that.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think you know, I I yeah, I think just I still carry that.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I still carry, you know, definitely at times when I'm feeling um when I'm feeling under threat.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'm tired or I've got I'm overwhelmed or um, you know, situations occur, let's face it, like life's not simple.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I will revert back over believing those thoughts about me.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the majority of the time I'm I'm aware their beliefs, they're not facts, yeah, and I don't need to engage with them, I don't need to give them the power that they want.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: But there are always going to be times when I'm vulnerable or compromised where the power is there, and for a short period of time, I will totally believe that I'm not good enough, I'm the problem, I I need to change.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: But the the difference now is that with the years of insight and work I've done on myself, it doesn't last as long.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, every time I go through a phase of I guess slipping back into that feeling of not being good enough, I'm I'm able to understand and see it for what it is, yeah.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I can turn up for myself and I can be compassionate and I can get myself out of it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I just I guess I just again I just want to kind of highlight that when you go to therapy or when you you know you get help, yeah, it's not about changing you, no, it's about understanding you and then realizing that there are just healthier strategies to support you, that's all.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's my big message.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really great message because I think there is a perception that if you go to therapy you're fixed, and it's not about the well, there's two things actually.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first one about thinking you're gonna get fixed, and the second one thinking I can't go to therapy because if I go to therapy I must be broken, and I can't be broken, I'm perfect, and I'm functioning every day, and everything's great.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think because of those two things, we put too much pressure on ourselves and cannot embark on the journey, and I very much see therapy as a journey, and it's something I would encourage everyone to do because you are learning about you 100%, and I you know I've I've had like when I first got support, shall we say, for the Indus Buddha, I was what 15 years old, okay, and I would say it's probably the worst support I could have got.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, um, and it didn't really help me at all.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the focus was purely on weight restoration, it wasn't about understanding my behaviours, it wasn't really and so it was very mechanical.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: I did what I was told to do because I just didn't want to do it, yeah, and then once I was free of it, I definitely reverted back.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely reverted back to behaviors that were not great because I didn't understand it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't understand, you know, exactly.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then just putting a plaster on it, totally, yeah, and then you know, like over the years I would say I sought help on regular occasions, probably every time I went through some sort of transition phase, yeah, you know, like so, for example, um going to uni, yes, that's a transition, and I struggled, and so I got support in uni, and that was probably the first time I started to understand what might be the cause of my behaviours, yeah, and but then obviously I stopped and then I went and worked, and yeah, and then there was fine for several years because like I said, I think being good at work gave me a different I guess something different, it made me feel good, yeah, made me feel good about me, which was the thing that was lacking, yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I no longer needed to in my mind at that point I just didn't need to understand anything else because I was fine, yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I yeah, you know, then I became a mum, and yeah, becoming a mum, as much as it's a wonderful experience, it's chaotic and messy and and climate.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, and so I think at that point again I was like, okay, I'm not completely healed, yeah.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: I need to understand it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I need to go and get some more help, yeah.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and then I got some help at that point, and then let's just pause here a sec because I've got stone in my shoe.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we can keep talking okay.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: I uh yeah, I got you know, I was like, Oh, I'd go and get some more help, and that phase helped me to understand a little bit more about myself, still wasn't everything I needed.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually quite hard going to therapy with two small children, but you know, um but uh I remember taking my youngest with me at one point because she's she was just a baby, and I was like, I have to, you know, I need to do this.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, I did, I did it then, and then when my my marriage um crumbled, yeah, and I was going going through a divorce, I went to therapy again at that point.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then actually post-divorce has been my longest commitment to therapy, okay.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: In that I I've we're working with someone now since I guess since 2020.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And not weekly, like it's it's it's it's not something I mean initially, yes, it was very regular, and then obviously as time's gone on and I've become more understanding and aware, yeah.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: It we now speak almost as I need it, so it's almost like now it's like a holding space for me, yeah, rather than a regular kind of conversation.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Good to know you have it.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I and I think you know, my yeah, my my therapist now is probably the person I'm I've most connected with and most understood myself through.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And she's really, really helped me to see things from different perspectives, like understanding that somatic response that I didn't really know about or even think about, and and and so I think yeah, so I think it you know, I again I would say that it's not been a it's it's never a linear journey, no, and it's never perfect, yeah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you almost have to try lots of different people until you find the person you can kind of click with, yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then how long you go on to have therapy is very personal, yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I was not thinking I was actually lying in bed last night thinking about it, thinking, I wonder if I will always need that space, yeah, because of the work I do, uh huh, because you're obviously carrying a lot of people's, you know, like you're keep carrying a lot of people's secrets and and concern and worry, but also because of the type of person I am, like this very sensitive individual that experiences the world so intensely, yeah, that actually I think I'll always need that psychological space to be able to make sense of it.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it makes sense, yeah, but who knows?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: We will see.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: This is the thing though, it isn't linear and it is something everyone needs because as as you go through life you change and your responses change, your triggers change, and it's good to check in, and it will have a positive impact on the people around you to understand that you are going through this process and opens that conversation with them as well, especially you know, your immediate people, to say, I might, you know, if I respond like this, can you tell me?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm working on this, and I I would like to change how I respond to these triggers, and that's also really helpful, I think.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, definitely, and I think you know, after my marriage broke down, yeah, I was very conscious that you know I'm I'm not one to go, it's it's their fault, or it's it's it was very much this is a this is a joint responsibility, and I wanted to understand I guess as much as I could what went wrong, yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that I if in the future I ever met somebody again, yeah, I didn't make those same mistakes again, or I didn't choose maybe the same characteristics that were not supporting me or whatever, and that was really helpful to to go through that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, now I've you know Yun and I have been together for nearly five years, and and we have a very different relationship.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, we always say it feels like a grown-up relationship, which we look at 49 years old, but you know, but it's but we're very you know, we're we come from very different backgrounds, yeah, but we have very similar values, yeah, and we both have the love of the outdoors, which is definitely our connection point, yeah.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's so important to have that one thing, isn't it?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, and but I think ultimately for me he's he's literally one of the kindest people I've ever met.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so nice, and I think that's that I feel like kindness is such an overrated trait, yeah, you know, it's so important.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I just think this the modern world that we live in, there's kindness has just been made obsolete, yeah, and I just think it doesn't take much to be kind.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: I agree, and it and it makes somebody else feel so good, yeah.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, that's so nice, yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, there's there's but again, we you know, I'm not saying we're perfect because no relationship is, and we but we work toward we work together to bring ourselves back together.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whenever we find ourselves in opposite places, we work hard to bring ourselves back together because I think ultimately we both know that yeah, we found our person, yeah.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: But just because you find your person doesn't mean it's magically happens, yeah, or that it's forever, like it's perfect, you know.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think again you I don't know, I think we get caught up in all the Hollywood movies, they all owe us compensation 100%.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's at their feet, yeah.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it's true, isn't it?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because it there is no magic pull, and every relationship needs to be nurtured, whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship, whatever it is, even if it's with your your therapist, yeah, like you have to nurture that to get the best out of it and to put the best into it.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely, and I think you know, I'm I'm at a point in my life now where I I've got some very amazing friends, and I've got friends that I've had for over 20 years, like since I've had my kids, and then I've got friends that I've met in the last five to ten years, yeah, and everybody who's in my life now is in my life because there's a there's a place for them, yeah, but they are aligned with me in some ways.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't choose, it's a proper choice, yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like they say that they make there's that there's that um statement, isn't there?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Family is who you choose, yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: And for me that's very much the case, yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that my family are the people I've chosen to be in it, yes, and uh there's a lot of people up here that make up that family, but there's also a lot of people that I've known for a long time who make up that family.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it is really important, and I just yeah, I think the busier I've got with with life and work, the more I've become quite conscious of the people I'm keep in my life, like because there's just not enough time otherwise.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: There isn't, and it changes your energy.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why are you gonna let in the energy that's not gonna help you thrive?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's nice to wake up joyful and smiling.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when you spend time with those people, even if it's people you only see once a year, yeah, but you just know that when they you know if they come and visit and they leave on Sunday evening or Monday morning, you just know you're going to feel upbeat and like I don't know, your heart is full of joy, and you yeah, you just you just feel restored.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: You do, your cup is refilled 100%.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Can we take a moment to talk about this view?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's a moment.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful the trig point, and also just a little sort of catch my breath moment.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: Not yourself if you're going for a walk with a runner, bring an inhaler, so light canter, really.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I'll I'll slow down.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's fine, it's fine.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just teasing.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just stunning.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: I just love it up here.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and actually, it doesn't matter what the weather's doing, it just every day is different, it's a treat.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, like you know, you because we've got the lake district over there, yeah, and sometimes those mountains are really like focused and clear.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Today they're a little bit kind of covered in cloud, but you still know that they're there, yeah, and then obviously we've got the Yorkshire Day or.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Over this way, yeah, and it I don't know, you just you're just surrounded by hills.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what's better than that?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, we've got Morkham Bay over there.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I just I that's what I mean.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: When I came up here for the first time, I just knew this is where I need to make home.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Had you been here before then?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, never.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you were blown away by the way.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like like you know, saying earlier, this is when we we we both live in the lake district, like there are some incredible views wherever you go, and you could live in a definitely a more extreme environment.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe one day I will.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: But but for now, yeah, exactly.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is this just means I just feel I think one of the things I missed in my old home.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: I used to I when I before moving up here, I lived in Bradford Avon.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and one of the things I really missed was having a high point and being able to see where everything is.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: And this is definitely helps me because I can just I just feel calm, it's so quiet.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's so quiet, and actually there's no one here.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Which again is something I really love because you know, again, one of the things about living in a very lovely place is that you get a lot of visitors, especially through the summer.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's nice because it's very good for the economy, of course.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I quite like peace and quiet.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we lose our peace a little bit.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I live in downtown Windermere, so you can imagine.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: I can imagine, yeah, exactly.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's really stunning.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's nice to look over at Morecombe and then look over at the lakes, like you said.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: You just look left and right and you've got different perspective.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, and also there are so many amazing runs up here.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can never get bored.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, exactly.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's gorgeous, great idea.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I did do a podcast recording the other day, and we actually ended up doing Kanzik Fell instead of Scout Scarf, so that's handy.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: We did that purely by accident, but now I've ticked off both of you.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: You've got both, yeah, exactly.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to ask you about reds.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: What is reds?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: So reds is the abbreviation for relative energy deficiency syndrome.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes relative energy deficiency syndrome.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people say relative energy deficiency in sport.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really important to highlight that it can happen to anyone.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not it's it's linked to things.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's linked to people who are active, but but it it really the actual condition can affect anybody.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so what it's talking about is when there's not enough energy in the body relative to the amount of work you're asking the body to do.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: So work being, as in our daily processes, so you know, our brain, our heart, our lungs, and then our general daily movements like we're doing now, but also if you're going to the gym or you're, you know, cycling to work, or so any additional movement.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that it's basically when you're asking your body to do work, yeah, but you're not providing it with sufficient energy.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk about energy, I'm not just talking about food consumption, yeah, I'm talking about rest as well.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, what we see or I see a lot in clinic is that sometimes it's not that someone's not eating enough, it's actually they're not resting enough.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's like insufficient recovery.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that especially runners find very difficult.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is a hard thing.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's a hard thing to reconcile that it's okay to sit on the sofa.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally, and especially in the world we live in, yeah, where again there's a lot of stigma around being still.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's much more keep moving, be active, do this, do that.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I think we all get a bit nervous and anxious about choosing to just sit on the sofa and watch Netflix or you know, or or other providers are available.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh sorry, yeah, it's not to me.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or read your book, or whatever it might be.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like the number of people that come into my clinic and say that they can't they can't allow themselves to rest or they can't eat on days they don't move, or oh my goodness, you know, it's like it's really And I totally get that sort of thought process because actually, why would you fuel yourself if you think that you're not gonna burn it off?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, you need to refuel yourself to be ready.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, but also you know, the majority of energy we need is just to be human.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, we need energy to digest our food, we need energy for our brain, we need energy to swallow, we need energy, you know, we need energy for our bone health, we need energy for our hormones to work.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: So we're thinking in a very one-dimensional way about food-body relationships.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's and again, I think it's come from the fact that so many unqualified individuals and also big consumer, like big industry, like diet industry, pharmaceutical industry, you name it, you know, fitness industry, yeah, they want to simplify how the human body works because it pays for them.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: Ultimately, we're selling, aren't we?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like this is the problem is that we so many of us have got sucked into this messaging that to be okay we need to look a certain way.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to be okay, we need to live a certain lifestyle.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to be okay, we must move in this manner alone.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: And all these messages are literally there to make us feel shit about ourselves, yeah.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that then they can go, oh, and tada, we have a solution for you.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now give us all your money and we will give you the solution.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, except no one is actually looking after the health of that person, yeah.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so with Reds, like Reds is a is a multi-system condition.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a presentation, a clinical presentation, and it can be very extreme, and it can also be, you know, just one or two symptoms, but regardless, it's still a problem.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the most common symptoms that we see will be changes to hormonal health, particularly in women.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, menstrual cycle will become um, it might become lighter, it might become shorter, cycle length might become longer or shorter, yeah, or worst case, it stops completely.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's not okay.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like no female should not not have a period, unless, of course, they're on hormonal contraception, which is then more complicated to understand if you're in reds or not.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: But other symptoms include, you know, recurrent injuries, and that's not just bone injuries, that's tendon and ligament injuries, yeah.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: Digestive issues.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I find that often people I work with who are doing a lot of activity, they they may say that oh they're absolutely fine, and suddenly every time they go for a run or every time they go on the bike, they get upset stomach, and that's kind of an increased gut permeability, yeah, and that's in direct response to the fact that the body can't digest food because there's not enough energy.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we see, yeah.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: So digestive issues can be problematic.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: You find that your mood can drop because again, people don't always understand that hormones like estrogen and testosterone, they make us feel good.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so if they're dropping because the body can't produce them because there's not enough energy, there's not enough rest going on, right?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: Then you start to feel flat, you start to feel low.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's so many presentations, and like the worst presentation I've ever had in clinic was actually probably a young 17-year-old who just had been massively mismanaged by a coach, and she presented with no menstrual cycle.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, 17.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she presented with severe stomach issues, but also really real issues to her respiratory system.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she yeah, she was a real like literally every single biological uh process in her body had been impacted by the you know, very high training workload and very little nutrition to match it, and and so but I guess what I want to say is is that you know it doesn't always have to be that extreme.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: We see a very similar thing in let's say someone who is overweight, yeah, and they decide that they want to lose weight, which is fine, but they end up going on a very restrictive energy intake, yeah, and at the same time might start running, yeah.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to start with, they will get the results that they're looking for.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the body will will like they will probably lose a bit of weight and they probably will feel better, yeah.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then what happens is the body gets to a point where it's like this is no longer sustainable for me because I need a bare minimum amount of energy to keep these biological functions going, yeah.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, all the energy you're giving me, I need to use for this exercise, this movement.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I need to shut something down, yeah.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like makes a choice, and so it shut starts shutting down your biological function.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't often get symptoms immediately.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you might get a few symptoms, maybe you're just a bit more tired, you're not recovering as well.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you like I said, noticing you're feeling a bit flat, maybe a bit unmotivated, but really honestly, it usually takes six to six to eighteen months before severe symptoms really show and kick in.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the problem that by the time yeah, by the time they come to me where I'm working with them, they haven't appreciated that it's that original behaviour that's caused this outcome 18 months later because it's it's too far away.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: So and for that to present in someone who's 17 is frightening.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Really frightening.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, really, really frightening.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's the thing, it's not like it doesn't no one's immune.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really important to recognise that no one is immune to reds, like it can happen to anyone.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be a professional athlete, you don't have to be someone who necessarily is even doing you know, like extreme exercise.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think just the fact that so many people now try and squeeze things into their lives, you know, like the people that get up at five to go for to do a hit session, yeah, they don't eat before they do it, yeah, and then they go to work.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe the first time they get to eat is like 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a really kind of a very easy way to fall into a low energy availability, right?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when there's not enough energy available, yeah.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay, you do it once or twice, fine, but if you're doing it consistently, yeah, then this is where it becomes a problem, basically.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we've made it to the mushroom.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: We have, isn't this stunning?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, let's have a mushroom selfie.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really interesting conversation in terms of not eating before exercising.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna take advantage of you now and get some therapy.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: Go for it.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, what I tend to do is I will wake up, whatever time it is, I'll get up, have a little check-in with myself and think, no, I'm not hungry, so I'm gonna go and do my cardio in the morning.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I tend to do 40 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes running, and then I'll come home and usually have rice and curry or something, you know, whatever was last night's food, and then get on with my day, and I'll go to the gym in the afternoon or after work time, like five-ish, to do weight training for about 40 minutes, and I will do that four times a week.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got eight things I like to do in the week, um, as guided by my PT, yes, um Rachel Parkinson, she's excellent.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so what I might do, like I might do a run on a Monday and then think, oh, I'm too knackered, I'll do my weights on a Tuesday and sort of spread it out as well.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think to that?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I mean I think obviously movement is great, yeah, and I think listening to your body is ideal.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely am very similar in that uh I have a coach because obviously I do a lot of running and I have to.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's good to know that you have a coach.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: I d I definitely think having a coach helps me to stay accountable because I think it personally I ha do have quite an addictive personality.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's not only is it easy for me to kind of overdo it, but it's also easy for me to think, oh right, I've got two days off now, I'll go mad because I'll try and fit it around my life.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas having a coach has been really good for me because uh what we do is we look at my weaker head, so if I'm traveling, we'll we'll manage it.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: But equally, also he'll always say to me, you know, ultimately you know your body better than I do.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're feeling tired, then I'd rather you took an extra rest day or you did less.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I very much am I do very much listen to my body.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm feeling strong and feeling good, then I might do something a little bit harder.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm feeling tired, like actually this morning I was feeling quite tired, it's been a really long week in clinic.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I sort of I said to you, I don't think I'm gonna do any running today.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think good.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really important.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like listening to your body is really important.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: What I will say is it's never good for particularly women to do anything fasted.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, because we know that it has a negative impact on our hormonal health and also on our bone health.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, oh interesting.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm not saying you need to eat a massive breakfast before we go, but I think always having something.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, like were like if I'm really in a big rush, it might just be a banana, yeah, and then I'll go and do a run.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or even if I'm even more of a rush, I might even take a gel and I'll have like half a gel before I go out the door and I'll just eat the other half 20 minutes in.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not I'm not like I don't need to go and eat this like massive breakfast before you know b beforehand, but I do need to I do always make sure I have something, and then obviously making sure you recover well within 30 minutes of finishing is really important.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that look like?
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: So ideally carbs and protein.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: So rice and curry is great, yeah.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or again, if I'm in a rush, then I might use I might use like a milk-based drink.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a big fan of like iced coffee.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd probably have that, but I'd use cow's milk because again the cow's milk has a better composition of carbs and protein is in the right proportions to help recovery.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what about for vegans then?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: So for vegans I tend to suggest soya.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so again, you get those like little like even just those little chocolate soy milks.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: One of those and a banana.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't sit down to recovery because you know, life is busy or you need like for me, sometimes uh it's fitting everything around the clinic.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I can sometimes I have to kind of think, oh actually, I've I've got a client in five minutes, so I I need to have something quick.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when I probably have like, yeah, I tend to have like little cartons or something in my fridge, and I always have that with a piece of toast or a banana, something really fast that I can have, even at the desk, do my do my work, and then obviously I'll always follow up with a proper balance whenever I can get that in.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like it's just it's it's for especially because I know when I'm like this year, earlier this year, when I was training for Lake from 50.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations, by the way.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I was really mindful that training volume was high and I didn't want to get injured, and I also wanted to be able to progress as the week went on.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I was very, very yeah, I was very kind of careful about choosing, making sure I made good choices around my work and around my training.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I was always ready for the next training session.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's in I don't it's very hard to sometimes maintain the amount of food you need when you've got a high volume of training.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I don't again, I think people are so caught up in the move more, eat less.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they get stuck in that and don't.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: And don't realize actually sometimes when you're doing more exercise, it's actually move more easily.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: And also you get so hungry, don't you?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry to interrupt you, but you just end up binging on the bad things, so I just don't buy the bad things.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then I walk around my kitchen opening the cupboards thinking, I don't want to eat that, I don't want the good things, I want the crunchy things.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, isn't it?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because I always say this to I always say this to people like I I never really deny myself whatever I want.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I've done that in the past, yeah, and all that happens is I literally go around eating everything else and then end up back where I was in the first place, wanting a piece of cake or wanting to risk it or whatever.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't deny myself anything, I'm very, very comfortable with making food choices with no negative or positive association.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's good.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean I did go to Malten Mango in Kendall yesterday, and inevitably I got the jackfruit crisps and the banana chips and the crunchies crisps with all the masala flavourings.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I bought one of everything.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: So my favourite at the moment is I'm going through this phase of like like chocolate Brazil nuts, oh yes, chocolate cherries.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love chocolate cherries.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Cherries don't love me so much, but yeah, so tough.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got the my daughter and I, so my uh my my older daughter has just moved back home after finishing uni and uh she she makes this chocolate bowl in the evening.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Does she?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like all these different little chocolate salads literally, and uh she said, Should I make you one?
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah, and then and now it's become this habit.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, I think you also buy almond Burfy as well last night.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: I went to town.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, this is what happens when you deny yourself the things.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: So what I thought was I put it in the place that's not in the kitchen, so I have to go out of my way to get it, yeah, and then it's a real treat because I've really pushed myself.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, makes sense, yeah.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: But um, so just going back to this uh fasting and eat it fasting and exercise thing, so I'm one of these people, I'm a process person, I'm an analyst by trade, I over investigate everything, and so for me it's been this battle all the time about time.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so if I say I'm gonna go to the gym at seven in the morning and do my run and I'll be home by before eight, if I'm then gonna eat something, this is gonna take a month for me to process and think about because I will over-analyse every scenario until I get to one, that's gonna work, which is fine because I'm used to doing that.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: But does that then look like waking up having like I don't know, a rice cracker with almond butter and honey, because that would be my go-to easy snack and then waiting 20 minutes and then going?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's very individual, right?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can I can literally eat a piece of toast and run.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I see, okay.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need you don't need to wait.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to wait.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I need to experiment.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess, yeah, it's it's and like I I don't want to be the person at the gym that throws up on the gym.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, absolutely, you do not want to be that person.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess it also the more you do it, the more you train your gut to do it.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like if I'm doing a big long run, or I'm like like so, for example, I'm planning on got a bit of a big run tomorrow with a friend, yeah.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll want a proper breakfast before I go.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that I will try and have two hours before I go and run.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: But like yesterday I just yeah, I just did a like a hilly run at home, and I yeah, I think I had a bit of toast and then yeah, within within half an hour I was running.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I have been known to literally eat a pee of toast and go running straight away.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as there's something in your body, yeah, exactly.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's it doesn't have to be not the rice and curry feast.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not, maybe not, okay.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: That might not go down so well on the treadmill at seven in the morning.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: Noted.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: And what about um caffeine?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: What are your views on caffeine?
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm a big caffeine junkie, so I mean I can't start the day without coffee.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I I need several cups.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, like but I do tend to stop drinking coffee by about midday.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh that's probably my limit.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, I don't I just the 10 before lunch and then I just yeah, then I'm good.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: So um no, I so I probably have three cups of coffee in the morning, but I love coffee.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I absolutely love the flavour of it.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: I only drink it black.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just love good coffee.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I have decast for the evenings now.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I don't really drink I don't drink much, I don't drink many hot drinks once I've had coffee.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Every now and again, like when it gets a bit colder, I might have like a Rubosh tea, I do like a rubosh tea or a peppermint tea.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I do like a hot chocolate.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, who doesn't know exactly.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I was gonna ask you, going back to Reds, about your book.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, yes.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: Did you like that segue?
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like such a pro writer.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: Very good.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: My book, Fuel for Thought, which is my latest book, it came out in February.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: And how many books do you have?
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I've actually got six books in total.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say the last two, so more fuel you and fuel for thought, I think are I don't know, I'm not you should never really say your books are not great.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel like they're more relevant to people.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because they're they're not just about sports nutrition, they're about nutrition.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, they're about fueling life, but also fueling your adventures.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: So Morpheal U came out in 2022.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um What inspired it?
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, interestingly, Morpheal U, the publishing company Vertebrae, came to me and said, we want to write a no-nonsense nutrition book.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're really fed up with all the fads and misinformation that's out there, and we think you're the right person to write the book.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very happy to write the book because I am very anti-fads and misinformation.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that was very much a it's very much a theoretical book.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very much about you know providing everybody with all the knowledge.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not about saying you must do this, yeah.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's about, you know, so we, for example, we tackle issues like intermittent fasting in there, and we tackle veganism and we look at low-carb diets, and so it's like this is here are all the facts, yeah.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: Here are case studies of people that I've worked with that have done all these things, yeah, and it's now up to you to work out if this is the right approach for you.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very much giving people an opportunity to make that personal choice.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: I will never tell someone what to do.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in it, we also it's the first book that actually tackled women's health, yeah, and so it's got a big chapter on women and like hormonal health and what happens like through the menstrual cycle, but also through perimenopause and menopause.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's and and also it's it we talked also about being what it was like being a minority group, okay, you know, and understanding that your your cultural influence on what you eat also have an influence on your gut biome.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so actually, you don't have to eat like the Western world is telling you if that's not what you grew up with.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very much a very kind of theoretical book, um, and that did really, really well.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but what the feedback we got from Morfuel You was that people wanted a book that was a bit more practical, but also had more of me in it.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: So Fuel for Thought was a book that I I wanted to write.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the book I've probably always wanted to write.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very, very fortunate the vertebrate were very happy for me basically to write what I wanted.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wrote this book thinking about the people I work with in clinic, thinking about the messages I see, sometimes the things that make me feel quite sad about life.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's a very open book.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I talk a lot about my issue with influencers and actually how they're problematic for society, particularly when they're giving out misinformation.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about my own experiences, so I talk about you know my eating disorder, and I talk about my relationship with my body and also when I've got it wrong with my running and how I've learned from that.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I also talk about my experience as a professional working with professional athletes and actually what I've learned.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Things you're never gonna pick up from a textbook the things you learn doing the job, yeah, and actually why having these years and years of experience is so much more important than just the just the title, you know, of who you are.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a very practical book.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I've added like you know, there's an A to Z of foods and kind of why these foods are good for you, why why you should include them in your diet, and then also ways in which you can incorporate them.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, like some recipes and ideas.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very practical book, which is what I really wanted to write, was something that people could pick up constantly and go, oh yeah, actually, I've got this tin of chickpeas, I don't know what to do with it.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh yeah, I remember there's a recipe in Rini's book.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but it's all very simple.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not accessible.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I am not about the goji berries.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't actually like them.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_02: I bought a massive bag when they were fashionable.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, oh no, I don't like them.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am not I'm not about these fancy, I'm just about good, simple nutrition.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really easy.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Accessible every day.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody can have it, everybody can, you know.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to create a recipe book, but even like my daughters at uni could go, oh yeah, I can make that.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and in fact it was really it was really nice the other day.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maya's friend came to stay and um I cooked her sausage casserole, which is uh which is a a a a recipe of mine.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Maya has done it at uni.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh cool, and and her friend loved it because Maya had had to cook it for her at uni.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then Maya said, Well then now you can have the original sauce.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it was quite funny, it was really it was really lovely.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: That it was you know that the whole point was creating a book that people didn't need to go and get weird and wonderful ingredients, it's all there in your either in your cupboard or you can access from your local supermarket, you know.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so Fuel for Thought has has done well, both books have done very, very well.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: But Fuel for Thought, I think, in particular, people have really liked the the connection with me and me being very honest about myself and my running and and everything else, but also just that it's just a book, I think, because there's so much noise, it's a book that kind of cuts through that noise, yeah.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's I think like the thing about Feel for Thought is that people I what I love about it, people have messaged me saying it's changed their whole relationship with food, changed their relationship with with their bodies, they they're feeling better, they're feeling better because they're feeling better, they're actually seeing really good results.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Surprise, surprise, yeah, exactly.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is it, it's like there's what people like is it's it it it does cut through the bullshit, yeah, and it's a trusted source, and so they're like, actually, I've just read this, what would Rainy say?
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's it's been quite nice, not that I've ever expected to be that no voice of reason, but I guess that's what has happened, yeah.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's it speaks to the quality of what you're putting out, doesn't it?
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_02: So did you ever envisage when you started your journey as this unknowing empath carrying the weight of all the things we didn't understand when you were younger?
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ever anticipate that you would be at this point where you're six books down the line working with professional athletes and elite sports people, plus helping everyone else?
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it's funny, I had this conversation with Maya last week because obviously I said she's just graduated, yeah, and we've just been talking about you know what's next for her.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I just said to her, I said, you know what?
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just remember you don't need to have a plan.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and actually the biggest piece of advice I could give her was just to be open to opportunity, yeah, and to take opportunity and not be fearful of it not working out.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, sometimes it doesn't work out, we know that, but it's not that's not a problem, it's how you respond to that and what you do next that is the main issue.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I've definitely made mistakes in my life, I've definitely made the wrong choices work-wise at times, and you learn from all that though, too.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, instead of beating myself up about it.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, well, so be it, you know, I won't do that again, for example.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, yeah, I'm I never ever what if you had asked newly qualified Rini with a dietitian working at St.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: George's, yes, what her life would look like 26 years later, yeah, it definitely would not have been this at all.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel incredibly lucky that you know I've I I have had the courage to make the most of all the opportunity.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say I'm lucky to be where I am because I've chosen all those decisions to help me be where I am.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I feel very I feel very I feel very lucky that I have had enough resilience and courage to take chances to make decisions and end up where I am.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: And actually that it's yeah, it takes courage, doesn't it?
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, and keeping that open mind.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think when you when you predetermine your entire life at 21, you actually close doors.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: 100% and you don't see that things are opportunities, you think, oh no, it's taking me away from where I think I need to be going.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it could be the universe saying, Oh, what about this?
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, and I think I think that's something I've I've never been one of those people that have gone, right, in five years' time I expect to.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've never been that person.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think because of my eating disorder, yes, and I just think I I never even knew if I would make it at times, yeah.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really powerful.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've never taken life for granted and I never will, but I think also I think also I um yeah, I I I there was no I never wanted to kind of plan.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I'd like to kind of just take each day as it comes.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Even this was funny, before we drove up to meet you, yeah, Ewan was like planning the day ahead.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's looking at me and he's like, You don't want all this planning, do you?
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, I want to just see where we end up.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you know, I don't need to focus on at 12 o'clock I'm gonna do this and at one o'clock I'm gonna do this.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've not I've never been very good at being having to conform.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's not part of my personality.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's much more organic, yeah.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because I I think as you were saying, that was reflecting obviously back on myself as all humans do.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I was just thinking, actually, I've always had a five-year plan, but that five-year plan is more a vision, yeah, not a rigid thing, yeah.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Of this is how I'd like to feel, this is what I'd like to be at.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I've done it since I was 15.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if things change, it's fine.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I need that kind of target, yeah.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, I feel rudderless.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm just drifting and I'm wasting time, and what are we doing here anymore?
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just one of those people that just needs that.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_02: But it's really, really reassuring, I guess, to know that it's okay not to.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I mean, I think, you know, yeah, I'm not like like I'm not very rigid.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'll often have I definitely have a direction that I tend to go in, but I'm very, very open.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if that direction needs to change because something else comes along, and I think that's probably a bit more aligned to me, or that's a little bit more that I feel like I'll get more joy out of doing this, then I'm not fearful of changing direction.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's quite unusual.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think people are.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I'm not I'm not I'm not fearful of change, yeah, and I'm not fearful of things going wrong.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, probably because I've had to overcome so much adversity in my life that I don't yeah, I just I know that I'll find a solution.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, and a lot of that comes back to what we were saying before about learning yourself and trusting yourself that actually I can do this.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Renee.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: That was wonderful.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_02: That was a very lovely conversation.
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that was Rini McGregor.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I want to take a moment before we close because what Renee gave us in this conversation was not small.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_02: She told us about growing up as the only Asian girl in her school, being ostracized, by being called names, feeling profoundly alone.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: She told us about experiencing sexual abuse as a teenager and carrying the weight of that for decades before finally finding the right space to begin healing it.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: She told us about the eating disorder that became, in her words, her companion, the thing that helped her feel nothing, at a time when feeling everything was unbearable.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And she told us about the long, non-linear road of therapy, not a fix or a cure, but a slow and hard-won process of learning to understand herself.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't have to share any of that, and she did it with such clarity and compassion for her younger self and such generosity towards anyone listening who might be walking a similar road.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Rini, thank you wholeheartedly.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for trusting us with your story, for showing up on that hillside and being so completely so courageously yourself.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast exists to create connection, and you gave us something to connect around that which will stay with people for a long time.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Before I let you go, I want to leave you with a few questions to sit with.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a place, a walk, a view, a patch of sky where your breathing settles and you feel even for a moment like you belong?
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_02: When did you last go there?
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And is there a story you've been carrying about your body, your worth, your right to take up space that belongs in the past, not to you?
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_02: One that was never really yours to keep.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_02: You can find ways to connect with Weenie on my website at www.sakania.com.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's su-kan y four.com in the Walk With Us season three section.
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_02: A huge thank you to Persimmon, our wonderful music partner.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_02: The music that has topped entailed the season three episodes of theirs, and we are deeply grateful.
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_02: If this episode moved you, please share it.
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Please review it as an independent podcast.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: It really helps people find us.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Also, send it to one person who needs to hear that they are not broken, they are just human and finding their way.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, keep walking, keep finding your way back to yourself.