Latest / Work Stress Anxiety | Burnout Prevention & Work Anxiety Help / You Might Be Coping More Than You Think: When High Performance Blurs Into Anxiety

Transcript

You Might Be Coping More Than You Think: When High Performance Blurs Into Anxiety · Work Stress Anxiety | Burnout Prevention & Work Anxiety Help

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Work Stress Anxiety.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Cheryl Paris and today I have Hannah Kierman joining me for a conversation about a question many capable people quietly carry.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is this just who I am or is this how I've learnt to protect myself?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we look at overfunctioning, chasing recognition, saying yes.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: But but but what do we need to do?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is not about blaming yourself for coping, it's about understanding what those coping patterns may be trying to protect.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get started.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone, it's Cheryl here.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Work Stress Anxiety.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are talking about overfunctioning and what that actually means.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a brilliant guest with me today.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome Hannah.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Hannah, how are you?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Doing good, thank you.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm super good, super good.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: I always feel good speaking to you, Hannah.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So apart from that, let's get straight to it.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things that, and I'm sure you've seen it, is that when I'm talking about overfunctioning, I'm talking about where people are doing all the normal things that people do, and somehow they're getting through those things, but they're for want of a better word, their energy tied up in stress and anxiety.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So even though they're performing, especially in the workplace, you know, they may be doing what I call the super people.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: The people who seem, you know, they're like the swan on the lake.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: They just glide and everyone's like, wow, they're so amazing.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: But underneath they're paddling, they're paddling like mad.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So when sometimes people keep over-controlling and over-functioning and people pleasing, can we help them tell the difference?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is me as a person, and this is how I protect myself.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So almost like their protection strategy.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And first of all, I do believe that there is a great number of those people.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the high performers, the ones that are just as you say, the swan swimming in the lake.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they have so much anxiety within them as well.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so if there's anyone recognizing themselves that is listening to this, you are not alone.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, saying that you are not alone.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And also, there's different kinds of patterns and reasons why we are doing this.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it usually goes back to values.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And how well do you actually know your own values?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that we don't really talk about, is it?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, usually we we we do talk about the business values and and we have them as a poster on the wall, and then we say, yeah, yeah, we should have uh high open um doors here, and everyone should be able to take this their own decisions or whatever it is on the walls.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: But what does it actually mean?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you have as your values?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when you when you know that, then it will also be so much easier for you to know: do I actually do this to please someone else?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or do I actually do this because I believe in it?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it will impact the way that you are feeling inside internally.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are working against your own values, that will not end up in a good situation whatsoever.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't even know your own values, how the heck should you then know if you're working against them or towards them or with them?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So so that is one of the things that I do believe that we are missing out, that we don't usually talk about.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm thinking now that have I actually been talking about that with my children?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know my values.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm extremely true to them as well, and they are so important for me.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that is something that I came up with just a few years ago.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't know that when I was 20.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not intellectually, I did not know them.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: But internally, of course I did.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: My body, my nervous system knew it, but I wouldn't have or I had not started to speak them up, and therefore I could not really know do I follow them or not, but I could feel it inside my body.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's interesting you say that because I think if you haven't taken the time to define what your values are, I'm sure you've probably seen it, where people, because they haven't done that, they find that they're you know, because I do agree with you, you feel your values in your body, but you may also find that you have conflicting values.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just thinking of a friend of mine who's a banker, and one of his values, clearly, you know, because that's a profession he chose to go in, was to make lots of money, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um I I'm not making any judgment on on that value, but then you have kids.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Surely you want to see your kids at at some point.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want, you know, you don't want to be able to just see your kids just at the weekend, and then 10-15 years go by, you your kids don't know you, and you don't know your kids.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like there's a conflict of values.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is a conflict of values, yeah.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: But sorry to interrupt you there, but one of the things that I do hear now as well is that for me, that would not be a value.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: That would be an aspiration, something that you are chasing for.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: The question I would ask that person or your friend to really get him to support him to really find the value, I would ask him or try to dig into what does money stand for?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: What does that stand for?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that might be security.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or it might be hierarchy, or it might be belonging, it might be something else.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then that is, okay, so that is your value.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's play with the thought that it is Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: What is the purpose?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Why is the purpose of it?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that okay, so let's play with the thought, taking this as an example, and play with the thought that that it is security.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So money stands for security.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why is security so important for you?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: What is security?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can start to dig into the reasoning behind it.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because it might be that your friend is coming from a family with ancestors that lost everything.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, security is important if they if they lost everything.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to dig into the reasoning behind it, and then you can find the value, true value.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then if that is okay.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, one of the ways to fulfill my values is to get all those money.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: But what if you are losing your family?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you've seen it.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, not just you know, I've seen lots, lots of people I know personally who've chased the dollar, they've chased the pound, and a lot of them have been very successful at it, I may say so.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: But then, you know, I had another friend who unfortunately during very successful, had uh, I think about two or three businesses on the go.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Then we had the pandemic, COVID, was it COVID-19?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I can't even remember what it was called now.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 20.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: COVID-19.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: And all his businesses shut down.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: But he won't even talk to me now.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: He's so embarrassed about the failure of his businesses that somehow he feels it's a somehow because other people don't see him the same way, it's almost like he feels everyone doesn't see him the same way.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I still love him, he still means as much to me as all those things.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: They were nice.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: They were nice to have.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, and I think that you're into something very important here as well, and that is the status.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because too often, and I say too often, we kind of put status as equal to money, or status equal to a good title, nice title.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean status is something totally different.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Status is something that you are the one that I can rely on.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: You are the one that I want to be close to.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not because you have a great title, not because you have a good amount of money, because I trust you.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I feel safe with you.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, that's what it's all about.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually it's about integrity, isn't it?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: There are some people who, and I'm sure you know people like this, maybe they're not the brightest spark in the book, but you would trust them with your life because they have what what what I would call true integrity.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: They say what they mean, and they mean what they say.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and I think for a lot of people, especially in the workplace, they become so good that they have their competency, but they become so good at masking it.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's like, where's the point, Hannah, that maybe you can explain it to me.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the point where that competency has quietly turned into a stress response?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: There is a biological reason behind this, that is to lose.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because the loss aversion is so much higher and stronger than the win.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So when you let's go back with this with money, I have earned a certain amount of money.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then if I or a title or whatever, and then I see that I might lose this title, I might lose this status, as many people are putting as equal to this title.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: The loss aversion, the the feeling of what would happen if I lose this title is so strong.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you keep on going and going and going and going and going.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then even though you might see that, okay, yeah, but if I just cut down a little bit on this, what would I gain?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: The win has to be at least four times the loss.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I say at least because that is more or less what we can see is the loss aversion times the win.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when we understand this and when we can support each other to really think through why is this so important for you?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you put yourself in this situation that makes you feel so stressed and me makes you feel so unspired?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: When we support that person to really figure that out, that is when that person can also get rid of the anxiety and the stress responses to it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because we will.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've done it myself.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been there, I know, and you have been there as you there yourself as well.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you know as well.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: We are holding so tight onto something we don't want to lose it because it's so scary to lose it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: We don't really know.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also I think sometimes because of the way society is set up, you know, we sometimes pick the wrong people to be around.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: We pick people as we think they're our friends, but really we see them almost as competitors in the same race that we're in.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: To me, that's what's constantly reinforced.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things I think's really important is when people do step back, they sometimes can feel as if they're being lazy or they feel as if they're being weak.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just I'm interested in your thoughts.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: What might avoidance be trying to do for that person?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Support me out there.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Avoidance of what?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: So whenever we have situations where like you were saying, where we know that we're getting more and more stressed, more and more anxious, because we're trying to hold on so tight to what we perceive that we have, that sometimes in our minds we kind of know we should step back.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I mean by avoidance.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes people despite the thought of stepping back, them, they label it as laziness or a weakness.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Failure or failure, yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: But to me, it's almost like you know, like when I was saying earlier, I've been in situations where logically it's like there's nothing there's nothing there for you to tell.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Why why what's wrong with you?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: But inside me I've known it's the right thing to do to step back.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking, what is it why some people think I called it avoidance, but that stepping back, that feeling that they should step back, what is it trying to tell them?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Lost.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: That they might lose, that they might uh g get out of the pack, they might be lonely, they might be excluded, they might be bullied.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's scary to take a step back.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you have reached the ladder or climbed the ladder, why would you climb down?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's really okay, it must be something wrong with her if she's stepping down.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or ah, she didn't she was not smart enough.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: She was probably pushed down.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's all those things coming into our mind and making a criticizing ourselves.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the thought is so much more scary than the reality.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would say that most people would say that when you you dare to do things that other don't dare to do, that you are actually strong to do it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I do want to say something here as well, and that is from my personal story.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: More or less 20 years ago, I had a breakdown.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I had a personal breakdown from from work, and I was off work for six months because I I was totally burned out, and I was working a lot, and I had a lot of because I was a global responsible for a process within the Volva group, and I was traveling around the world, and you know, I had the most perfect work for me or possession for me.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just loved what I what I was doing, but I was pushing myself a lot to get other people to see me.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted my manager to see how good I was, I wanted my peers to see to celebrate me.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted my team members to celebrate me, to give me a feeling of belonging and proudness.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that made me burned out.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I was home for more or less six months, and then I when I came back, I had learned a lot of different tools because that was when I started to study the human brain.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I started to study the neurobiology, I started to study what was it that made us burned out.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was reading a lot, I was doing a lot of research and so on.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when I came back, I was so relaxed.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was a totally I took decisions in so much more effortless way.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I made so much higher results.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I got so much more achievements, and I got so much more of my ideas when going through the organization.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I want to say here is that when I'm talking about high achievers, most people equalize that with working a lot, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so busy, I'm working 60 hours a week.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm working 70.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Who's the best?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, me, because I'm working more or less 80.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the one that I say is the most high achiever is the one that knows how to utilize their skills, their knowledge, their experience in the best way, the most effortless way to get the highest results.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the people that will have the people around them with them as well.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the people that also will live until they are hundred, not seventy.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always coming back to this, to start to learn to recognize your own signals and understand the patterns behind them, and then be able to say, okay, does those really belong to me or why am I chasing this?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know today why I was chasing the recognition from my manager, why I was chasing the recognition from my peers and so on.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know that today, but I didn't know that when I was 25.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: It took me, I think, 26, then I was 36.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it took me quite a lot of time until I started to understand that.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so thankful that I went through that because today I am living my life in a much more effortless way.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess that's why I'm talking to you as well, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have been standing here if I wouldn't have gone through that and and wouldn't have realized those things.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just it's good that you've come to a place of understanding yourself in a completely different way than maybe if you hadn't gone through that experience when you did.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I love this work that we do, Hannah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: People may think, oh well, this wellness stuff, it's all great, you know, it sounds great, but me and you, we've done the hard yards.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we understand this isn't the reason why I did the podcast was because I wanted people to understand that you're not alone in feeling the way that you do.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: This is so common and it's almost stress.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even like calling it stress, really.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's to me, it's de-stress.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's de-stress, it's almost celebrated now.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: The harder you work, the more hours you work, the more you should be applauded.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas what we're saying is the complete opposite.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Hannah, for joining me and thank you for sharing your insights with me.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me here.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, one small step from today's episode is maybe to ask yourself this.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: What am I afraid I might lose if I step back?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: It might be approval, status, belonging, or the version of you that everyone else has got so, so used to.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need to solve it, you just name it.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe help understand why Pat has such a grip.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: You'll find all her relevant links in the description in the show notes.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And if you love the podcast, please love the podcast at love the podcast.com forward slash workstress.