Latest / The Chiro Money Show / 045 | $1M Practice, 3 Days a Week: Dr. Jamie Richards on the Retention-Based Practice

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045 | $1M Practice, 3 Days a Week: Dr. Jamie Richards on the Retention-Based Practice · The Chiro Money Show

• Chris: Welcome back to the Chiro Money Show, where we're helping chiropractors make better financial decisions so they can build stability in their finances and a lifestyle that they love. We're your hosts, Chris Scheele and Scott Campbell, financial planners with Align Wealth. Scott Campbell: We had an incredible guest today lined up, don't we, Chris? Chris: Yeah, we do. Talk about the intro there. Helping chiropractors build a lifestyle that they love and stability in their practice. Scott Campbell: Dr. Jamie Richards is probably a great person to fulfill what we're trying to accomplish with the introduction of our podcast, hey? Tell us more about Dr. Jamie Richards, Chris. Chris: Yeah, awesome chiropractor. So he's got a practice in Ontario, extraordinary life chiropractic, and then his life by design for chiropractic, his coaching program. So yeah, very experienced doc and Coach of other chiropractors and just wonderful human, great articulator, like awesome communicator. yeah, just a really awesome conversation about this whole thing about being intentional about what we're trying to achieve and then having a practice that aligns with that and allows you to to structure your life in the way you're you're trying to. Scott Campbell: Yeah, we I had the opportunity to see him speak briefly. I saw the tail end of his presentation at the AFC spring conference at the end of May. So I had to get we had to get Dr. Jamie on on the show for for a conversation. what we came to learn about Dr. Jamie is that he is adamant that you know everyone's told to build a practice a certain way in terms of more volume, more volume and just grow and and and just kind of head to the grindstone and just build and and you'll be you'll have success. He's flipped the script hey like he he's looking at it from a Different lens of saying, what do I want out of my life? How many hours do I want to be working? What kind of income do I need to be generating to live the life that I want? And how do I build then a practice to achieve that dream? And he's done it himself. And we're gonna dive into and talk a lot about that, but how he's helping and educating and coaching and mentoring other chiropractors to do the same. So lot had a lot of great questions for him. Awesome conversation. Chris: Yeah, that sounds great. Let's dive into our conversation with Dr. Jamie Richards. Scott Campbell: All right, welcome to the show, Dr. Jamie. Thanks so much for being here today. I had the pleasure of hearing you speak at the AFC Spring Conference a couple months back. as a vendor, I only got to maybe see the last 10 minutes of your of your talk, but I was really impressed by the message that you're sharing to the audience. learn that you're doing just over a million dollars or so in revenue annually, Dr. Jamie. The practice is only open three days a week. You're there every other Wednesday. Is that right? jamie richards: Every other Wednesday. That's right. And Scott Campbell: Every other Wednesday. jamie richards: and about eight weeks in the summer I'm not there, yeah. Scott Campbell: Incredible. So you've you've been and would s I'd probably I'd probably say that most docs would tell you that's an impossible feat to get to. Would you w you say that's fair to say? jamie richards: Yeah, I think it's fair to say, and I'm sure that's a big focus today, is how do you craft the practice that you want? That that really to me is the whole premise. It's not about more, it's not about, you know, seeing thousands of visits a week unless that's what you want to do. I'm all for and this is really what the Life by Design Dream Life Project concept is and and what was built on, which is what do you want? And and I think when we go back into how we got here I always wanted what I thought I was supposed to want and what other people projected on to me, not specifically to me, but what all the gurus said was success. And that never felt right, even though I pursued it and pursued it. And then every time I would fall short, I'd beat myself up and feel terrible about it. And then I just asked more logical questions like, Well, why can't I do it this way? And I think all of us would benefit from asking that question a l a lot more often. Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. Chris: Yeah. Scott Campbell: Yep. Yeah, you you so often hear that most docs think the solution to their to their problem is just more volume, so many docs are just chasing. Like I if I could only get to two hundred patients per week, then three hundred, then four hundred, then five hundred or more, right? And I think a lot of practice coaches preach that as well. You're you're you're you coach a lot of chiropractors and you kind of counter that model with retention over acquisition of more and more volume, right? Can we jamie richards: Yeah. Scott Campbell: Dive in there and tell us more about what that jamie richards: I for sure. Scott Campbell: kind of looks like in practice. jamie richards: Yeah, I think as a starting point, you have to one, identify what you want. And, you know, when we talk about what you want, not specifically in your practice, but more in your life. You know, I I want to be able to have for me freedom of where I work, when I work, how I work. You know, I've got a lot of big ideas. I understand my practice is a large part of our cash flow machine and it's important to understand what to do with that cash as it's coming out of your practice. Now that's where you guys step in. So I I think having those things in place, but then reverse engineering Your practice. And look, we could take the word practice and replace that with any business. Because I think these conversations are, yes, we're speaking to chiropractors, but you know, you could have any business, and it's the same point, which is how much revenue do I want to make based on my margins that gives me the amount of profit inside my practice or business that I'm going to pull out that feeds my life in a way that gives me all the things I want. And it doesn't mean more is always going to be better because you know there's always somebody who's going to be more wealthy. Who's always gonna be better looking, fitter, like you're there's just there's there's Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: no end to that stuff. And so I think having this better idea of like, okay, what do I want? So with that said, you then have to identify, you know, what do I have right now? Do I have a new person problem, which is what most doctors assume, or do I have a retention problem? And you might have both problems, which is even worse, but you know, am I demand constrained or am I supply constrained? And then you can put emphasis and energy there. So I think it's gonna depend. We have systems and models around both. We talk a lot about the retention-based practice, but For people who have built and solidified their retention, you know, we have a whole what we call reputable chiropractic marketing infrastructure. So there's a way to market yourself. And you guys actually do a great job. And it's very similar. Like, how do you build authority? How do you create a system where people are trickling their way to you? So they're choosing you before they even get to you. So when they do Chris: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: come in, that also is a part of building retention. You know, you can't just have the script and framework to say to people who've never heard of you before and they walk in and they're I have this problem, can you fix me today? And all of a sudden They're going stay with you for a long time. So there's two sides to that. And for me, just I'll tell you how it was born. I didn't know how to acquire new patients. So at the start of my practice, I was very passionate about chiropractic. You know, I really had this idea of solving people's health problems through the chiropractic model, was very influenced by Reggie Gold, Arnold Bernier, and some of those people. So we kind of shifted this what we call third paradigm chiropractic, this idea that getting checked and corrected is good for you regardless. Severe conditions or symptoms or lack thereof. It's you know how we take care of our kids and and our the people Chris: Yeah. jamie richards: we care about most. But I didn't know how to attract people. And so the point is, I had to keep every single person I had because I needed to pay the bills and I needed to have a practice that was, you know, giving me a place to build and do those things. So out of necessity, Chris: I think. jamie richards: I learned how to build great relationships with people. And then when I figured out the marketing side of it, then it just I don't say it blew up, but it grew to the point where now it's Where we want it to be. Like we could scale more, Scott and Chris. And you know, if I wanted to have a 500 visit week practice, we could do it. I would just need more doctors because I'm supply constrained, right? I can't see any more people with the current structure that we have. So I don't need to go and get more people. I just need to get enough people to have the practice that we want that gives me the life that I want. And you know, we talked in the pre-show. Yes, I'm here every other Wednesday. I have other doctors on my team. I'm away most of the summer. doing my other Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: work from wherever I want to be. And those things couldn't happen if the practice wasn't built and solidified around this retention-based idea. Chris: Yeah, I love that. I love how you start with like the end in mind. Like what are we trying to achieve here? Right? Like that's a in a lot of ways very similar to how we look at things and you know, a lot of people come into a meeting with us and think, well, here's the money. It's like we don't want to start with the money. Let's jamie richards: Right, right. Chris: start with what are we trying to achieve here? And so jamie richards: Right. Chris: you you've totally created that and I think a lot of chiropractors and and business owners in general, they they often forget that step. It's like what are we what are you what are you aiming for? Like, where are we going? jamie richards: Right, right. Chris: And jamie richards: Well, and I I'm not sure that they've ever been introduced to the idea outside of I need to see three hundred visits a week. And what we tend to find is when we do the initial consultation with a new client in Life by Design and have this conversation with them, the vast majority of the time, they're much closer. I bet you see this too with your clients, they're much closer to where they want to be than they imagined. And they've got this like gap in their mind, I'm gonna have to work th this hard and see all these and kinda grow. And it's like, look. You're literally thirty visits a week. From this dream life that you wanted, why are you doing all of these things that are taking your emphasis and energy away from this one thing that if you just solve this problem right here, you'd already be there in the next six to twelve months, and then you'd be there for the rest of your practice career. And again, Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: I'm sure you guys see the same thing with people, you know, with you know, all the different things, especially in finance, like, I'm I did crypto and then I went over here and then I did this. And it's like Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: you're just cashing out and putting something. I mean, I'm probably speaking to things you guys joke about, but it's It's just you're constantly looking for the shiny penny when honestly, if you just had somebody good working with you and put your money in great assets and then gave it time, you're gonna be a millionaire, right? There's I mean, you're Scott Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. jamie richards: we're in Canada. I mean, just with the TFSA alone, it's it's it's it's insane that you're not a millionaire by 60. Like every single Canadian, even if you're a low-income earner, should be a millionaire by the time you're 60. Chris: Yep. Yep. The opportunity's Scott Campbell: I won't disagree with that point. Chris: there. Yeah. so Jamie, it sounds like you have you may have solved one of the one of the most important problems or potential problems in finance, which is stopping the goalpost from moving. Right? Like jamie richards: Right, right. Scott Campbell: Big time. jamie richards: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: Personally, it sounds like you have created this practice, you've you've intentionally drew drawn up, like here's where I want to be, and you've you've achieved jamie richards: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris: it, you're there, and now you're you're you're staying there. Can you talk to us a little bit about your mindset and like what that's looked like? Is this what what you set out to achieve, or have the goalposts kind of shifted a little bit? And like what have you done to kind of control control your own? jamie richards: Yeah, I think as you I think as you go through different levels of entrepreneurship, you know, you're going to reach a certain point and you're gonna reevaluate things. And so I I think you're gonna set these big lofty goals, you know, let's say twenty-five years, five years, one year, and you're gonna hit them. And we often hit these twenty-five year goals much earlier than we expect, and we expect more of our, you know, one day goal than we could ever accomplish, you know, in in a year. And so we kind of have to reorient this idea of all right, here's what I'd like to be at In 25 years, here's what I need to be doing today. And they probably need to flip it a little bit. The 25-year one needs to get bigger, and the daily goal needs to get smaller. But as you go through these levels of entrepreneurship, you just see things differently. You know, I think about this a lot is I see things very differently today than I did a year ago or four years ago and so on. And so, do the goalposts move? Yeah, but I don't think in the way that we think, where it's just, you know, incrementally getting further away, we're just shooting for a different goal. Bullseye, I think is what it is. Now, I think you have options. And this is one of the things I like about building a great business is it per produces optionality. If you don't have a good business, you have an income you need to make, you're in the business, you're working in it on it, and it just feels like a grind because you're like, it's just I've got to do it every day, you know. I've got bills, I've got a family. And those are all real legitimate concerns. But as your business gets stronger and it produces, you know, flexibility in terms of profitability, and you know what your number is. Numbers are and you say, Hey, I need to earn, let's just we're speaking to chiropractors. So let's say, you know, I need to earn $250,000 a year to have a great life, and that will make me very happy. Well, when you start earning $300 or $350, well, now you say, okay, well, I'm already meeting the number. Like, is more gonna be better? Am I willing to put my time and energy into that? Or are there different options? And so I talked about this at the conference, Scott, which is when you're there or approaching that, you can keep going, right? That's an option if you love it and you could see that happening and you it's Really energizes Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: you. You could bring on an associate to take a part of that. And you wouldn't even really have to grow your practice. They could just take on the part that's surplus and you'd take 50% of that. And so you'd be working less, right? Or for me, it was about time. You know, with our growth of life by design, that's our next step is growing my personal brand and our life by design brand. And then also life by design for chiropractors continue to grow and actually put some energy into our consulting brand. It's always grown very organically. And so it's time to branch that way. So I wanted the time. And so I squeezed differently. I said, hey, let me get and practice as little as I can that still allows me to generate the base amount of income I need from that practice while the practice is still able to grow or at least sustain where it's at. And so my mindset in that sense is, you know, my dreams are continuing to evolve and I have to keep shooting for them. Now I'm I'm I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like there's no struggle. there. I I have very much struggled, I would say, over the last four to five years, significant struggle, in taking life by design and life by design for a chiropractor is to a whole nother space where I know it could be. You know, I watch people online and I I think, I could do that. I I mean I'm very confident that I can do it all, but I'm very hesitant to put myself out there beyond what I've done so far. And there's we can get into it. But there lots of reasons why I'm sure you guys struggle with this too. A lot of people do And yet that's where I'm pushing right now is I'm really so I'm grateful you invited me on to have these conversations is that's where I'm at right now is I'm pushing myself to go and create this next piece, but I couldn't do it if I didn't create this practice piece. Scott Campbell: Hmm. What if you you you talk a lot about squeezing before you scale. Could you talk about what that actually looks like? Like some actual meat meat and potatoes of what that actually looks jamie richards: Yeah, I think you need some numbers. Scott Campbell: like. jamie richards: Yeah, exactly. So let's say for example, we talked about the retention multiplier, which is, you know what, a metric that we use based on, you know, practice stats, based on some of our internal data as to what your practice looks like in terms of retention, like actually giving it a quantifiable number. A golden rule that I use in our practice and with consulting is for you to sustain a hundred visit week practice. Now, we can also talk about pricing and kind of have all that stuff 'cause that's important as a lever, but let's just say If you had pricing dialed in and everything was solid, for you to sustain a hundred visit week practice, you should be accepting no more in a retention based practice, needing no more than five newly accepted cases per month. Per month. So that's shocking for people, right? So let's say you have a 200 visibility practice. To sustain that, you should be accepting no more than 10 new patients a month. So I'll give you our scenario. you know, for us in our practice currently, and we would consider this at least somewhat of a gold standard. there are some similar practices inside our program, but in general, you know, we're gonna sustain on our three days somewhere between 250 and 270 visits, and we probably accept And that sustains our 250 to 270. You know, we're priced at the highest. We just raised again. We're in a little, you know, community, about a hundred thousand, but my town's five thousand, but we pull from all around. And you know, there's twenty, thirty other doctors within the the community. so again, a lot of practices. Here's what we see. Most practices need at least double that. And that's always been the standard in chiropractic. It's okay, if you have a 200 visit practice, you need 20 new patients. If it's 300, you need 30, and so on and so on. I would say it's half of that. And so the standard, not even good practices, like the standard we've been told, or shouldn't say not even poor practices, the standard is, you know, double what I think it should be in that sense. And so squeezing means getting those numbers dialed in. Because if I have to go and get 20, 30 new patients and I know half of them are never going to stay in my practice, so much time, energy, and money that's happening here when I could just kind of Put a triage on that, like, hey, let me get the baseline I can get, maybe more naturally with some basic ads and organic and not push like screenings and focus and dial in more on the retention side of it. And then once that's squeezed in and you start to see a closer to five per hundred, then you can say, okay, you know, I just had this conversation with my staff today. I was like, okay, you know, today it's a little, it's a it's a weirder day just because we're closed next week, but today is like 120 visits and 22 reports. So I'm down here recording a podcast, my single doctor's up there doing checkups, and then I'll be up this afternoon to help do reports all afternoon. But, you know, I said Basically, we only need about seven or eight new patients a month now to sustain kind of where we're at. So growth phases and sustaining are different, but again, squeeze it down and then scale it up. And then the scaling is again one of those three things. Am I gonna scale it way up? Am I gonna see tons of volume? Okay, but I don't need as many new patients to do it. Am I gonna expand my team or am I gonna just bring on people and then free my time? Scott Campbell: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Could you Chris: Interesting. Scott Campbell: could you share what's some of the may maybe the most common mistakes that you see in terms of docs that aren't able to have that great retention in their practice so they can they can shift to that, hey, we Chris: So Scott Campbell: only need five new d new jamie richards: Yeah. Scott Campbell: new patient visits for every hundred n regular weekly visits. jamie richards: Yeah. So obviously huge question. let me give you, I think, s a couple of one or two specific action steps for doctors. Like usual, the number one most important thing is getting your headspace around this. I think there's some principles that have helped me along the way. And, you know, I briefly mentioned this idea of third paradigm chiropractic. So I'm gonna revisit that now. And and this isn't the only way you can have a retention-based practice, but I will say in my experience it's w it's the easier way. Easier in some ways, harder in other ways. when I say retention-based, if I'm speaking to chiropractors, what I mean is building a relationship that is long-term lifetime for people to be under care. In our practice because of the simple principle that you're better off with a healthier spine and nervous system than without one. That's my position. I'm not saying I'm treating ABC conditions. Our model inside our community is to create a new category, in a sense. People come see us, and there are lots of people who at the end of, let's say, an initial phase of care, maybe they didn't get all of the changes they wanted or the reason they came in. Like that does happen, but a high proportion of patients will stay under care because they recognize there's an inherent value. In having their spine and nervous system cared for. So, like, well, you know, my headache didn't go away, but I actually this changed, this change, this change, this change. Yeah, because we position it as we're gonna solve this problem. It may impact some of these things that I call collateral damage. It may not, but it's still important for you. So that's a huge kind of mindset. Now, the flip side of that is in my in my online brand, you know, I've had this conversation in my mind, you know, there's a lot of haters out there for chiropractic, and that's part of what I've hesitated with large, you know, kind of going large. Is do I want to deal with this every day? I've got a pretty good life. But at the same time, I also have a passion and I feel like I can help a lot of people. So I'm gonna have to just reconcile that I'm just gonna have to deal with it or not deal with it, and it's just there. But in terms of a defensible brand, what a retention-based practice simply means is building a relationship with a client that When they think of solving whatever problem it is that you are solving. So you could have a traditional treatment-based model, you could be a physio, you could be anything. You could still have a retention-based practice that's built around seeing the client for whatever the prescribed timeline is. Doesn't have to be a lifetime, doesn't have to be forever, but whatever you've agreed to, and that when they leave, they would still consider you their chiropractor or physiotherapist or massage therapist or whatever provider. So they're still retained within your practice world. Now there's Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: And so there's ways to do that. Now that's that's one way. The other piece of this is And I think this is a great start for doctors, is having what I call an acceptance mindset. So what I mean by that is when I hear doctors talk about and it drives me crazy when they say things like, I signed another one up. Right. And I mean, as providers, you could even use this if you don't already. It's like, okay, I I never liked that that feeling, that connotation. Like somehow I twisted somebody's arm and I dragged them into you know what we're doing. We didn't sign another one up. For us, we are making a determination at the review of someone's results as to whether we are accepting their case or not. And so to us, we're positioned like a surgeon or a or a you know an orthodontist or somebody who would be saying, look, you're a great case for us. We'll accept your case. Here's the things that we would do. And if we're on the same page, let's see it through from this point to this point and then we'll make a new decision there. That acceptance mindset is huge because when you go to bed at night, I suffered early in practice of, another one didn't start, you know, what am I doing wrong? They don't like me. I'm not saying it right. And And you're just you're beating yourself up all the time when people are saying no. So instead of them saying no, it's actually me saying no. You know, and I'm asking somebody in the presentation, I'll say, look, is this important enough to you to take the next 16 weeks to go from here to here to have tests that look like this? And then we'll start there, we'll finish there, and then we'll make a new decision. If they say, you know, no, or I can't afford it, or whatever their objections are, I will have a conversation. And if at the end of the day we don't agree, then they'll say, Great, your test results are good for 90 days. as if within 90 days we can start the process after 90 days when you come back, not if, but when you come back, we will do all new tests again and then we'll make another decision. And so for them, they also feel like they're empowered because they're like, okay, you know, whatever their story is, I couldn't afford it, I didn't do it. But on my end, they probably would have started like a lot of practices if we said, well you can't do 16 weeks, can you do two weeks? Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: Yeah, I could do two weeks. Let's try it out. And so a lot of docs, their stats will be like, you know, we have a hundred percent acceptance rate. Like, right, but you have about a 50% completion rate, and you can't figure out where all these patients are going. So I would say figure out Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: your retention model. Is it long-term, short-term? Just have some kind of here's what I'm agreeing to. And then am I accepting their case? And do it in a kind way. It's not arm twisting. And then it's a win-win. And then you make decisions as you go. That alone will almost within six months probably drastically improve your retention. Chris: Okay. Is that kinda what happened in like your own personal story? You mentioned earlier like for yourself, that shift that mindset. Yeah. jamie richards: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's exactly what happened. Yeah. Yeah, I well I got I got I got really frustrated with you know me seeing it one way and knowing, you know it's like with you guys. You know what the end of the movie looks like. Right? And so that's In your mind, you're like, I don't understand. Like, why aren't they understanding? Why are they not doing this? Like, you already know the end of the movie, and you've made your case, and it just makes sense. But that's not, you know, human psychology. And so I struggled with like, how can they not want to do this? This is crazy. And so, for my own sanity, I just made a decision that, you know, if I can't get on the same page with somebody, I'm not going to start the process. And this is not like, again, not trying to force people in. I'm just saying look, this is not the right place for you. Let me make a referral for you to my friend down the street who's a traditional. Chiropractor, they can see you this afternoon, they'll do a great job with your ABC condition. And then down the road, should you want to address this more from a what we call a biostructural problem? Then we'll go ahead and we'll address it then. And people love it. Again, I'm knocking on wood here, I guess, but you know, we don't really have anything below a four-star review, and that's you know, two people out of like 200. we've got a great reputation in our community because I just tell people the honest position, and then they make a decision, and then we agree to it, and then they complete. So, you know, our completion rate as a stat, back to numbers, is runs around 97 to 98%. So whoever I agree to start the process, they finish the first 12 to 16 weeks. You know, occasionally somebody moves. Occasionally the agreement maybe wasn't as clear as I thought it was, and someone changes their mind in the middle. That does happen, but we're talking about, you know, 2% out of 100. We only have 120 cases a year. So two to three Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: people a year don't complete the initial phase. And then And beyond that, you're looking at, you know, about a 92% move into the second phase, and then second phase 96 move into the third, and our annual renewal is around 97-98%. So, you know, you just you get to the point where you know what those numbers look like. So I know the front-end inputs. And if they start getting off track, then we know what to train on. We know where our constraint is. And so that's where our training goes, that's where our team development goes, or that's where our marketing goes, or you know, again, it's just trying to systematize this the infrastructure. once you understand the kind of the core piece of it, then you can add the layers, you know, piece by piece. Chris: That's awesome. Okay, let's let's take a step back and talk about high volume practices for a minute. Let's say we have a doc that has a a great high volume practice, but they're not getting out of it what they want because they didn't start with that end in mind. And and maybe the the idea is like it's it's maybe not quite as profitable as as they hoped. jamie richards: Happens all the time, happens all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Chris: Yeah, we see it too. What would your advice be or like how how would we how would you you know advise jamie richards: Mm-hmm. Chris: them to start that shift from high profit high high volume to higher profit? jamie richards: So I mean, just from a d definition standpoint, you can have high profit and high volume. And I mean, just obviously objectively, if you had a squeezed practice and had high volume, you'd have high profit, right? I mean, if everything was running that way. So there's a couple caveats here. you know, as you go up that volume ladder, there are constraints based on the doctor's ability, the team's ability, and so on. So there's natural constraints where you either have to hire new staff, you know, kind of expand infrastructure, and so those costs are to come on. So I think there's some sweet spots in practice. If everything's dialed in, you know, I think we need to be celebrating, maybe even presenting this idea of 140 to 170 week practice as almost a sweet spot for a solo practitioner. And you can literally make, I mean, do 150, right? Just 150 visits a week. Let's do $65 a visit collection. You know, you're at, you know, whatever that even is. Geez, that's what? That's $20,000, $30,000 a month, right? Minus your base expenses, which at 150 is nothing crazy. I mean, you're easily seeing 150 a week and making a quarter million dollars a year, right? So I mean, just base numbers. If you go above 170, and this look, there's always gonna be outliers. So you're always gonna get somebody calling, I see a million people a week. And it's like, but the average doctor, once you get above 150, now they're feeling constrained. Maybe they need another staff, so now you're adding expenses. They're if the retention's not dialed in, so now they need, you know. More new patients. And so more new patients means I gotta go out and acquire them. So if I'm doing ads, I've got to spend more money. And so it's not like I'm seeing more people and it's all profit. So if you're not scaled, if you're not squeezed in every step you go, you're still your margins probably get smaller and smaller. And then at some point, like 250, you start saying, I can't see anymore. I gotta get another doctor, so now you're adding another, you know, another salary. So Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: Depending on the structure, number one is mindset. So they need to see there's a problem first. And so we've had lots of these practices. They come in, and I mean I can think of a practice right off the top of my head. awesome practice, 20 some years in practice, you know, 400 visits a week, but they were collecting like $17 a visit. And Scott Campbell: No. jamie richards: yeah, just not profitable. And how can I not be profitable? I'm making, you know, I'm seeing 400 visits a week. Right. I said, number one. Is mindset. You have to understand that this is a problem. And they did. And they were very open to everything we were doing. And so we pretty much instantly raise prices. That's number one. Is it's your fastest, easiest lever. You're automatically gonna lose a certain number of people, but it's gonna be made up for by the price increase. And Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: it works every time, right? Especially if you're in the lower tier, you just raise your prices. That's number one. So it's the scariest thing to do, but there's systems in place to do it. My model is depending on how you're doing it already. If it's a paper visit, then you just raise the prices. If you have people on different plans, then I raise them as their plan comes due and they move to another phase. Then we just give them their new prices and I have a whole structured conversation and then some kind of downgrades. If that doesn't work, then well, let's do this. And you know, we kind of get them structured into their new plan at the new cost per visit, so your collected average goes up. I mean, that takes a good six months, year, right? Because you're transitioning people out of old plans to new. But what happens is you don't destroy the practice and the doctor doesn't go crazy. Crazy. If you're pay per Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: visit, you're almost gonna see an instant change, right? If you're $25 a visit and you go to 65, like people are just gonna say no. you need to have a conversation in place that restructures it to, well, let's change your frequencies or here's how things are gonna work. And you know, this practice as an example went from let's say 400 visits a week and it might have been a couple years and they went down to like a hundred and fifty visits a week. From 400. So if you could imagine doing that kind of volume and then going four hundred to fifth one fifty, it's really more of a mental game. Like I'm not good enough. Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: What am I doing wrong? And yet they were exceptionally more profitable. Like I I forget the exact numbers, but just they actually had money coming in. And they they they understood it conceptually, but they're like, I just can't believe it. Like I'm seeing less than half the number of people and I'm earning more money than I ever have before. And so I think there's mindset. Then there's usually profit. Those are the first couple steps. And then just looking at the business model in general, right? I think that's the other side of this, and we've kind of touched on it briefly. But what model are you in? And making things up on volume in a business that is constrained by people is difficult, right? It's like, yeah, sure, if you're online and you're selling a product that has no physical constraint and it can be scaled, it's like a course as an example. Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: You could sell a hundred. or 500,000, it makes no difference, then sure. You know, you have a little more flexibility in terms of shooting for volume and maybe your price points. But if you're in a high ticket, which is really what we are, you're gonna see Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: less people. And you know, here's what I've learned. The more I charge and the more I set these boundaries, the better clients I get. You know, Scott Campbell: Hundred percent. jamie richards: and that's just, you know, I had to get over this. I need to help everybody. And that's that chiropractic mantra, right? Of like save the world. Everybody needs Chris: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: chiropractic. And so there's ways around that. You know, start a free clinic if you want to. We had we didn't start up, we were part of one in London at the time, the Salvation Army Clinic. Rod Overton started that. Kudos to Rod and he helped a lot of people. It was not for me. It just, if anything, it taught me that people don't pay. They have zero value. And it was almost it it was an experience that was eye-opening. I want to help people. But when people don't want to help themselves, and again, no knock against where these people are at in their life, and I I hope everything works out for them, but I don't have to be the person helping them. And so you could create free content, right? You can give people free things, you can do free workshops, like you can help people in many ways to kind of scratch that itch. But when people want your premium service, they gotta pay for it. And then I think that's a reasonable spot to be. So what do you do with these high volume docs? Again, they've gotta believe that it's a problem and then generally raise their prices. Now I will Say, I've seen some high volume offices where their pricing is great. So raising prices is not the first step, but they're not happy. And so it's like, all right, usually the next one, guys, is retention. You know, they're high volume, their margins are good, you know, they're dialed in, but they're needing to see double or triple the number of new patients they would need to see to sustain that. So if we can just get the retention side squeezed, they can naturally just reduce their new patient volume, which creates more freedom, creates less. less infrastructure for your team. So then that would be the next piece of that. Chris: Good. Scott Campbell: On the on that note, like in terms of in terms of say your pricing is dialed in, say you do have good retention. Do you ever see issues with docs that are in that spot but have an issue with overhead not being where it should be at to actually have that profitability that they're looking for? jamie richards: Yeah, I the biggest one is staffing, you know, Scott Campbell: Okay. jamie richards: is is you know, I take for example my business partner Mike Gibson in Ottawa and Mike works with Craig Hazel. So Mike and Craig are partners at the wellness group in Ottawa. And you know, they between them probably have a foreigner visiting practice, dialed in, retention based. I know the retention multiplier. They've one staff. So I mean it's it not everybody's gonna be able to do it, and she's a superstar. So I mean that's a whole other, you know, piece. And Mike is a great, great team trainer. So y they got The pieces in place, but a lot of doctors have, you know, I've got three, four staff, and they're doing this and that. And it's, you know, I think for that, it's doing an audit of your business, right? And an inventory audit, just saying, okay, what are you doing with your time? Here's what I want you to do. I want you to get out a sheet of paper all week. I want you to mark down, you know, 15 minutes at a time, and all week long, I just want you to, as you're you're gonna put an alarm on your phone, and every time it goes off, just write down what you did for the last 15 minutes. And look, I'm not trying to get you fired, I'm not trying to take away at your job. We just need to see. what we're doing so we can reallocate that time into more higher leverage things. There'll be times where you'll realize you have too much staff. There'll be times where your staff is adequate, but they're doing things that are not high leverage for you. You know, so I w in our fit club as an example, we've got a great coach. we have multiple coaches, but one of the coaches I'm looking at is social media and like this guy does a great job. And so we've got him coaching, which is great. And I said to him today, I said, Hey, if I replace five hours of your coaching and I turn it into you directing and leading our social media, would that interest you? Because, I love doing that stuff. I'm like, Great. So now I'm gonna bring another coach on who's a great coach who needed more hours anyway, and then I'm gonna s swap him out and I'm gonna invest the five hours here, and it's gonna be high leverage. So I would say from an infrastructure, I mean I mean, yes, if chiropractors are into every little, you know, bell and whistle, then yes, they may have a lot of things that they're paying for that they don't need, or maybe they built their their business too big from the start, you know, big dreams, too much brick and mortar. So I mean, there's lots Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: of pieces there. I do think a boutique practice for a single doc in a small space at 150 visits a week, working three days a week, if that's kind of how you would see that amount of volume, one stack. is ultra profitable with tons of freedom. I just think it's a model that people are not giving enough thought to, or pairing that with two doctors splitting expenses, both working three or two and a half days a week, both making two, three hundred thousand dollars a year, you know, net profit in their pocket and not stressing about I only need eight, ten new patients a month, life's good. you know, you're in a place too and you're accepting cases like start or don't start. Right? Like I don't I don't need you to start. Now obviously that's not the conversation, but you get the point. Your your mindset inside is I want to help you. Here's what you need to do for me to help you. Scott Campbell: Sharing that story, it makes me makes me think of a doc that at one point during the conversation he's grown a pretty sizable practice, well over a million dollars in revenue, big team, like multiple docs. And I remember him telling me one time, it's like, Why am I doing all this? Like I should just go back to being a solo doc with one CEA and see, you know, 150, 200 patients per week. And like I feel like I'd take a lot of stress. Yeah, jamie richards: Make the same amount of money, more. Scott Campbell: more money and less stress, right? And yeah, it's so true. jamie richards: Yeah, we're we're s we're sold this idea, right, of more is better. And and that's where we started this conversation. And this is why, to full circle it, it's why the Dream Life Project is so important. And I mean, look, I have made so many decisions in terms of setting my goals and vision that turned out to be wrong. Or, you know, wrong in a sense that it didn't work out for me financially or in other ways. Like Incredible mistakes that I have made. You know, we opened a cafe right above me. It was great, and then COVID happened. And so, you know, we tried to keep it open. we didn't cut our losses like we probably should have. You know, we lost $150,000. Well, that hurts. You know, we bought a property in in Florida when we were trying to move to the U.S. during COVID. I was like, I gotta get out of here. And we moved into the U.S. Practice was almost sold. It didn't sell. We had a house in New Jersey and a house in Florida. The Florida one we paid way too much for because I needed a nice house. And then we ended up losing probably. Probably 250,000 US on the in, the out, the all the different stuff. And so now I will say, in losing that much money, which is just like it's even gut-wrenching to talk about what happened was in order to sustain those losses, I had to exponentially grow our business. And so in that same time, our business went from 600,000 in revenue to 1.1 million in revenue. And now that I've got those debts offloaded, my revenue is still there. And so I'm not sure if I would have been motivated enough to grow it to the point we grew it and squeeze it to that point if I didn't have that pain, but I wouldn't recommend people just go, you know, write a check for four hundred thousand dollars because they want to learn how to grow their business so it covers that loss. It's an expensive lesson, yes, yes. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. Chris: It's expensive lesson. And motivator. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it's possible, like obviously you're in a small town, a hundred thousand around your small town of five thousand, you said, and there's lots of it sounds there's lots of docs lots of offices in that area. You know, obviously that's that's your experience personally, but can the same thing be replicated in the GTA in Calgary, in Vancouver? Like jamie richards: Yep, yep. There's there's yeah. Chris: What about rents? Like, rents are expensive. jamie richards: for sure. And I think that every market is gonna have its own constraints. But look, this is just business, you know, welcome to the world of business, welcome to entrepreneurship, this is this is what it is. You have a problem, it's a solvable problem. You know, with any, and this is what I learned in the cafe. This is the the lesson, is and God bless Mike, because he told me before I opened the cafe. He told me. And I was, you know, did a call with him, and he's my business partner, but he's also a business coach for me. And I saw I was talking about it, had this dream, and he said, Look, I just have one question. He said, Is there a market for like premium coffee and a premium cafe in this in your town? yeah, there's people will love it, right? And so in the end, there wasn't a starving. I mean, we marketed hard. I mean, I was I was working it. And you know, we were bringing in 20,000 a month, but we still were not profitable. So that's how food costs and all those different things, staffing. And so the point was: if there is a market, then you can be profitable. And then you have to build your structure around, you know, funneling the demand into your business, solving a problem that's unique to you for a unique population, like all the stuff, all the just old school, you know, Dan Kennedy, you know, Eugene Schwartz. Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: Like David Ogilvy, like marketing, business, advertising. Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: And so the I think the reality is a lot of doctors and just business owners don't understand those things. I certainly didn't understand them 10, 15 years ago, and it's been a journey to figure it out and learn and study. And so, yeah, you can do it. You would just have a different market constraint. Maybe you're gonna share space, maybe you're gonna be in a smaller space. You know, you're gonna start small and grow if you want to. I think, in and in some ways, being in that market, you're gonna have higher costs, you're gonna find a smaller space. You'll naturally constrain yourself. Whereas if you didn't, like in my town, I could go take a huge space. I mean, we have a 10,000 square foot building, and I probably pay now we own the building, but we pay and rent probably what somebody else pays in GTA for like a little room, which is insane. And so, but I market to 70,000 people. You can market in a five-mile radius to a million people. And so there's one constraint, but then there's one benefit on the other side. So I think it's all six dozen half of the other. Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: Going back to the dream life project, what do you want? How much do you wanna earn? Where do you wanna live? Right. I think that's a question. Like, where do you wanna live? Where do you wanna be? Where do you wanna raise a family? Do you want a family? Do you wanna work five days, two days, three? You can do whatever you want. And I I do think outside of the chiropractic conversation, I'm thinking of my kids, they're nine and eleven, they're homeschooled, and and and again, no judgment on someone who does, and maybe it'll change, but I don't see them going to university. Maybe they will, I have no idea. But my vision for them is to give them skills today that they could earn money with right now. We talk about money. We have money conversations. we use an app where they have gigs that they do on a regular basis and it fills their app with money and then they cash it out on Sundays and some goes into the bank and some goes here. And so they're, you know, they sold cookies at Christmas time and and a cookbook. They made a cookbook in our homeschool. They sold it, they made eight hundred dollars selling their cookbook and their cookies. And so just saying like any business is doable. If you understand the models of business advertising and entrepreneurship, chiropractic is just a business within that that has its own kind of sets of rules, constraints, benefits. I will say this, and then I'll throw it back to you guys. You do not have to be very good at chiropractic to be financially successful. And that's a huge benefit, right? It's a high-ticket item. It kind of sells itself in some ways. The flip side of that is. There's not a lot of financial drive to get better. Because you could put a shingle up and make a hundred thousand dollars pretty easy. But if you're there, you're like, I'm fine, making a hundred grand, doing my thing, and there's no drive to be better. And I think that's bad for chiropractic because it doesn't create a better product for the public. Chris: Also we see this a lot that like a lot of a lot of chiropractors have that passion, that that that drive to to solve problems and and be like have an impact in the community. And that is often like 10x their drive to be an entrepreneur in a lot of cases. And most chiropractors I've ever spoke to, they've said, I haven't learned anything about running a business. I I've had to wing that. What are your thoughts? jamie richards: Yeah, I mean we we'd yeah, hundred percent. But I don't think that's unique to chiropractic. I think that's unique to almost I mean heck, I would say most business owners don't know how to run a business. You know, people start Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: a business because they're passionate about something or they have a service or a product and they're good at something, they have a skill and they say, I'm gonna make a business around this and I think th that's great. I'm all for business entrepreneurship growth. I think it's one of the greatest things about living, you know, in a in a free society is where you can just Scott Campbell: Mm. jamie richards: have an idea, put it out there, and you know, start to take it and and grow it and make money. from that. but I think for for us, one of the challenges, yes, not knowing what to do, but also, you know, having a little information is sometimes a bad thing. You know, it's like, I could go online and make videos and make this and make some money here and then I'm gonna go do and that's where people start jumping around. I've been there and I'm learning this lesson the hard way, but it's it's a powerful one, which is, you know, squeezing all of your energy into the thing. And and then at some point, like for me, I'm stepping away and then I've got a system in place to then continue that thing and I have less involvement in it. Same thing, our fit club, our training facility. We have coaches that are buying in n soon and then a new one coming on. And so I'm stepping back further and further, and then I'll still own these assets or parts of these assets. But I saw when I tried to do them all at the same time, they didn't grow. It was very slow. It was painful. It's like this is up, that's down. This is up. And so the last two years I just said, I'm going all in here. This is just gonna do very little. That's good, step back. You guys did now I'm gonna go all in here. And then my next step is step back and then I'm on onto this next piece now, finally. But it's you know, you gotta be patient, and that's something where most people are not, you know, certainly not human nature. Scott Campbell: I think that's a good segue into next area that I wanted to to get your thoughts on and that's building a team when you're scaling. Like you have two sounds like you have two great docs in practice with you, Doctor Rochelle and Doctor Creso, right? And jamie richards: That's right. Yep. Scott Campbell: they have their own practice separate of the one that you work at together. Is that jamie richards: Yeah, yeah, it's a r it's a really unique setup. I guess this does come back to an interesting one, Scott, and and and sorry if I cut you off there. it's opening ourselves up. To business models that maybe aren't what you thought a business model would look like. I need an associate, I'm gonna have to pay him a salary, or gonna be an independent contractor, be there full-time. And this was kind of born out of necessity to some degree, but Kreso brought me the idea: you know, they're in London, they have a great practice there, and he was at the point where they said, look, you know, either we're gonna market to fill and open more days in our practice. Because their current days are full. Or he said, I know you don't want to work as much. And at the time I had kind of moved on from my associates. they had moved on and started their own practices, which is great. And he said, Well, what if we come down and work in your practice? And so I crunched the numbers where we were at, and I was like, okay, yeah, I could pay you guys a pretty good salary and I would still make this. Could I live on that? Okay. And when they started, I was still one day and a half. And then just kind of every time we would climb in terms of revenue, I didn't take it as profit. I just reinvested and said, Hey, would you work another shift? Would you work another shift? Would you and we're at the point where now, like I said, every other Wednesday is my shift. And so I think that The model is something that we should give some thought to before we start building teams. You know, we talk about just the model itself. Is it me and a person? Is it am I gonna grow? So I think you gotta establish that first. That's that's the most important piece because the team development is different based on that. So for us, Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: we probably have at our practice volume around 70 hours a week of staff. Give or take. So we have that across three staff members, four staff members. So we have a tech CA who's part-time, a full-time staff, and then two other part-time team leaders, we call them. So about 70, 80 hours a week across those four people. That's where we're at. But I'm always looking at it. You know, we have a payroll assumptions calculator. I look at it a monthly you look at your numbers. If we need more, we'll invest. If I don't need more, we're not gonna invest. I guess the one thing I would throw out is I've always been for investing in team and thinking Thinking of it like that, like investing in team, slightly in advance of needing more team. You know, if your goal is growth, then we've always said, in about six months we're gonna be here. So I can see that happening. A team member is generally a fairly low-level investment in chiropractic, right? I'm not saying they shouldn't get paid well, and we do our best to pay them well, but comparatively to a doctor's salary or so on, it's a it's a good investment to be ahead of that curve. So I think answering those questions first, model, how much team do I need, keeping an eye on it, and then being a little bit ahead of the curve if you're scaling and if you're not, you know, I mean a one staff office is no problem at a certain volume. And even just if they can't be there, we ran our practice in London. This is crazy. We ran without staff for 13 years, 10 years. I had student volunteers from Western work the front desk of my practice. And everything was run by them and they would receive chiropractic care in return. fifteen or twenty went on to become chiropractors, but we never actually had staff the first twelve to fifteen years. Now we also didn't charge appropriately, and so it was probably good that we didn't have staff because we couldn't afford Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. Chris: Ha ha ha. jamie richards: to have staff, but lots of good lessons in there anyway. Chris: Hello. Scott Campbell: What in terms of like the model that you're looking to build with bringing on associates, growing your team? I think one of the common things that Chris and I hear often is like, how do we make sure that we're building a model and creating the right incentives for associates to want to build their practice here with us, like be part of this team? Same thing with the CAs and all the support staff. how do you get people in that position where it's like you are part of something bigger than just a paycheck or a subcontracting position here in my practice? How do you think about that in terms of growing a team to make it sustainable so you can scale up and not worry about them being like, I'm just gonna open up my own practice down the street in a year from now once I've jamie richards: Yeah, yeah. Scott Campbell: Built built some volume up. jamie richards: Well it's a it's a really great question. It's a legitimate problem for sure. I have seen in chiropractic for us finding Good associates and even just associates, like having leads, has been really s really challenging. you know, I talked with you a little bit on the pre-calls you know, for us, we're looking. So if you're listening, we're looking. and not Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: just I'm not looking for anybody, obviously. You know, I'm looking for someone or multiple people who would be looking at a legacy, right? For me, I I I could stay for 10, 15, 20 more years. That's no problem. I'm here every other Wednesday. But I'd like to know it's gonna carry on beyond me. So for me, I do have a big vision. The way I would think about bringing and developing a team, whether it be CAs or independent contractors or other associates, is think about the same thing I already explained with patients, is you know, creating a baseline fundamental requirement in terms of what we're agreeing to. Sure, you're painting the big picture, but we do that with our patients. We we sell them the dream, right? This is where we want you to be in a year and two and five and ten years. And so you enroll them in that excitement and that vision, and then you pare it down to something more tangible like Here's what we got to do today. Here's our tasks. And so for us, we have a very structured ecosystem. So my team knows what to do. There's training manuals. There's regular trainings. You know, we have a training culture. We have quarterly team strategy sessions. We do quarterly team bonding events. I have weekly meetings. You know, we treat them like a team. You always heard, I used to think like treat them like a family. And I can't remember who said it, but he said, no, don't treat them like a family, treat them like a team. It might have been like a Tom Brady thing. I'm a a big fan of the Patriots and you Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: know it's kind of like a championship team works different than a family in a family there's bickering and there's you know there's different things that happen but as a team we're all working towards a common goal so we like this idea of a championship team and I think you also have to look at you know from a SWAT analysis like what are the risks here like what are the threats from this and yes you know for me having Kreso & Rochelle I'm pretty solid they're gonna be here for 15 years. So I'm not too worried. But I had five other associates and yes they all left and opened their own practice. And the last one, who's a still a good friend of mine and still in life by design, you know, he was buying the practice and then just last kind of at the end it didn't work out, went in a different direction, and that happens. Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: And it it you have to be prepared for that. So even with Kreso & Rochelle, I said to my wife, I was look, if I have to go back into practice, I have a plan. You know, I wouldn't actually work three days. I would instantly pair our practice down to two days. I would raise our fees exponentially. We would offboard people who don't want to pay those fees. We would re or decrease their frequencies. And I'd be down to two days at whatever volume I want at another 20% price increase. And it would be a huge weightless practice. I would do a referral only, but I would still market and I would still have a funnel. of people and a pool of people who are just sitting on the sidelines waiting, coming to workshops, seminars, and whenever a spot opens up, they'd come in and it'd have a high price for them to come in and do the examination. And it's already kind of a pre-accepted so anyway, the point is it it isn't always going to work out. So you have to know what that next step is and what those plans look like. it's Scott Campbell: Mm-hmm. jamie richards: hard. Which brings me back to why not just open a boutique style practice? You know, I don't know this is gonna be my next Business venture. So forget about retention-based practice. You know, it's boutique style practice, but it would need to be retention to do that. $150 a week, $70 a visit, high, high retention, very few new patients, $250,000, $300,000 a year, net profit, one staff, seven new patients a month. Like anybody interested in this? Because it to me it just it sounds like a a frickin' dream comparative to 40 new patients a month. All the same stuff. and I make two hundred thousand dollars a year. So it's literally the exact Yeah. Chris: This has been a great conversation, Dr. Jamie. So yeah. jamie richards: Yeah, lots of fun. I could just keep going. But I also understand that not everybody listening is gonna keep going. Chris: Yeah. We could keep going. We we'll have to do this again. well jamie richards: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Chris: with some well there's lots of more follow-up questions we'd love to ask you, but I think it's a good good place. We should just kind of wrap it here, but we'd love to give you the chance to just kind of tell people where can they find you and you know, yeah, how can people connect jamie richards: Yeah. Chris: with you if they'd like to. jamie richards: Yeah, well I would say, you know, three ways to connect. Number one is if you're a a chiropractor and you're looking for an associate position. And when I say that, I don't just mean you're an associate. Maybe you have your own practice and you just don't want to run your own practice anymore. I think that's actually a great model. Kreso and Rochelle have their own practice. They come here two days a week and they work in my practice. And so if you're that person or you're looking at a longer legacy play, maybe a husband-wife team, you know, again, I'm open. we would love to find some great people to have a conversation with. If you're looking to follow life by design for chiropractors, you can find me on Instagram, YouTube, retention-based practice. And then just launching my personal brand, you know, for us, this is about growing our starting our online school for life by design, lay people health, but The way it's framed up, guys, you probably like this, is it's boring health habits. That's actually my brand. Is just getting back Chris: Yeah. Yes. Scott Campbell: Love it. jamie richards: to basics. So Dr. Jamie Richards on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and be lots more stuff coming out soon. And this is a good good push for me to get this stuff out. So thank you for asking and and making me get my setup back so I can start the podcast Scott Campbell: Yeah. jamie richards: again. Scott Campbell: Love it. Cool. Well we'll make sure that we link all those things in the show notes as well so that people can jamie richards: Perfect, thank you. Scott Campbell: easily find you and all those places to to learn more. So super, super great conversation. Loved having you here and we'll definitely have to have you back for a future conversation for sure. jamie richards: Okay, lots of fun. Thanks for everything, guys. Scott Campbell: Thanks, Dr. Jamie.