Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #70 - Planning Law Firm Marketing for 2026 Without Chasing the AI Hype with Conrad Saam

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#70 - Planning Law Firm Marketing for 2026 Without Chasing the AI Hype with Conrad Saam · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_01: When we graph their different markets,
0:02
SPEAKER_01: Google business profiles,
0:03
SPEAKER_01: how each of these different GBPs is performing,
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what you're seeing is the places where we had what we believed
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was a moat,
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they're actually losing ground and their newer locations are
0:12
gaining ground.
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SPEAKER_01: And what's basically happening is in their moat areas,
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SPEAKER_01: the places where they were super,
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SPEAKER_01: super strong,
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you've got bigger competitors coming in and eating up part of
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that market share.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome.
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SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Tiffany Swadensky.
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SPEAKER_00: And today I have Conrad Sam of Mockingbird Marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's just Mockingbird though, right?
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SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a funny brand problem.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: I want it to be Mockingbird and everyone says Mockingbird marketing.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I was at AVO,
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SPEAKER_01: some people referred to it as like an acronym,
1:04
SPEAKER_01: like they called it AVVO.
1:06
And it was like,
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well,
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as long as someone's talking about it,
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like that's fine.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think I've given up my really kind of draconian approach to like,
1:15
SPEAKER_01: it's Mockingbird,
1:16
SPEAKER_01: it's Mockingbird,
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SPEAKER_01: it's Mockingbird because it was a losing battle.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know why,
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SPEAKER_00: because in my head it's Mockingbird,
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SPEAKER_00: but Mockingbird marketing kind of rolls off the tongue a little bit.
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SPEAKER_00: So I couldn't stop myself, I guess.
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So I've known at least of Conrad for a very long time in the
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legal marketing universe.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, we all, it's kind of a small world, I guess you'd say.
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SPEAKER_00: So I've heard about him for a long time.
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I think we first met just a few months ago at the summit,
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the GLM summit back in October.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm also a fan of the legal marketing lunch hour.
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SPEAKER_00: Definitely listen every week, every other week.
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And so I appreciate all the content and episodes that you and
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Guy put out.
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SPEAKER_00: So thank you for coming on the show.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's great to be here.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm not good at a lot of things.
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SPEAKER_01: I love podcasting.
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SPEAKER_01: I love recording podcasts and just kind of riffing on this stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: It's good stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So what are you planning for 2026?
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SPEAKER_00: This is the end of the year podcast I'm recording.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of asking everyone the same question, but what are your goals?
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SPEAKER_00: What are your future plans looking like for the next 12 months?
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So it's surprisingly clear for me what 2026 should look like
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for offer marketers.
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SPEAKER_01: And there's two elements to that.
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Number one is I do not want people to get so fixated on doing
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everything about AI
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SPEAKER_01: that they forget all of the other components.
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And what you're seeing right now is every single conference is
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now an AI conference.
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SPEAKER_01: Every single talk at every single conference now has an AI bent to it.
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SPEAKER_01: Every person who's trying to make themselves look smart
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SPEAKER_01: has something to say about AI and the SEO guys are now trying to reinvent
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SPEAKER_01: themselves as AI people.
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SPEAKER_01: It is a component of marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a component of running your firm.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a component of how we live.
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SPEAKER_01: It's going to change the way we interact with things.
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SPEAKER_01: All of those things are true.
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SPEAKER_01: Having said that,
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If you put all of your effort into solving what is going to be
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10% of the market
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SPEAKER_01: next year,
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SPEAKER_01: you're toast.
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SPEAKER_01: And so it's not not important.
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SPEAKER_01: We do AI work for our clients.
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SPEAKER_01: We have two different products.
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SPEAKER_01: We do these building blocks and we have a deeper dive like this.
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SPEAKER_01: All this stuff that we do from an AI perspective.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it's not important.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm saying what really is important is if you only think about that,
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SPEAKER_01: you guys are going to fail.
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SPEAKER_01: Like three years ago, everyone is excited about LSAs for a while.
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SPEAKER_01: And now we've kind of forgotten.
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SPEAKER_01: They're still really big, right?
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SPEAKER_01: If you want to think about growing your firm,
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SPEAKER_01: I would rather win the LSA game than the AI game in 2026,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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From a pure volume perspective,
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like that's the game that you want to play.
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SPEAKER_01: So again,
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SPEAKER_01: Two really clear things for me.
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SPEAKER_01: One is not fixate myopically on AI.
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SPEAKER_01: The other part of it,
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and this is becoming increasingly important and it's becoming
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increasingly creative
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SPEAKER_01: in my mind,
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is understanding all of the chess pieces that are available to
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a law firm and
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SPEAKER_01: understanding which,
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SPEAKER_01: and by chess piece,
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SPEAKER_01: this is a simplistic analogy around marketing channels,
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SPEAKER_01: understanding which of those chess pieces your firm should be playing,
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SPEAKER_01: should be even aware of and understand those ones where you're like,
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SPEAKER_01: we're going to get killed,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: We cannot compete in this with this marketing channel, which is fine.
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SPEAKER_01: What are the ones that you can play in?
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SPEAKER_01: And I think what's happening now,
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SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
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SPEAKER_01: and it started to happen like two years ago,
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SPEAKER_01: it's like picking up.
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SPEAKER_01: And now I think in 26, 27, this will accelerate, right?
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the more unique niche kind of marketing campaigns channels
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approaches are actually
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going to start paying off so i think that becomes really really
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fascinating yeah
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: the trend,
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SPEAKER_00: and I recorded another podcast earlier today,
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SPEAKER_00: and they talked about how they were pivoting back to brand marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's the cycle I think that everyone is in right now.
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SPEAKER_00: We collectively,
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SPEAKER_00: but there were direct response marketing,
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SPEAKER_00: these direct lead generation strategies that we were using for years.
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SPEAKER_00: And now we're going back to what's important.
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SPEAKER_00: And what's important is brand mentions,
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SPEAKER_00: because those can capture,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: those can be scraped by AI search,
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SPEAKER_00: thought leadership,
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SPEAKER_00: and none of it is particularly new.
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SPEAKER_00: It's,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: the same old stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: marketing principles,
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SPEAKER_00: just kind of in new clothes because of this new existential threat,
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SPEAKER_00: AI marketing.
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And so it's interesting how everyone's circling back to like
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the basics more or less.
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And what's funny is I'm speaking at an AI conference actually
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in January,
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the AI for PI Expo.
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SPEAKER_00: And half the conference is about like how to capture like
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SPEAKER_00: I guess rankings and AI search.
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SPEAKER_00: But my talk is about like,
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SPEAKER_00: how do we use these AI tools,
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SPEAKER_00: which for me is honestly a little bit more interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: Like I just, I couldn't run my business the way I do without AI tools.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's so incredible.
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SPEAKER_01: I think there's more immediate gains from AI to be had from running tool.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll use a very simplistic example and it's ties into marketing.
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SPEAKER_01: Cause that's all I can talk about.
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SPEAKER_01: using AI to do lead scoring, right?
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And then having a different approach for hot leads versus warm
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leads and having the
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SPEAKER_01: right weight,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: that's amazing.
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SPEAKER_01: And you can implement that right now.
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SPEAKER_01: The key to me with AI, the big,
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wins that you can have with AI right now really are focused
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around what you can do
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SPEAKER_01: with your firm.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'll use a simplistic example, and that is lead scoring.
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So we can now use AI to understand the difference between a
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really hot lead and a
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SPEAKER_01: good lead,
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SPEAKER_01: but not something that you're going to
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step out of the boardroom meeting to to go pick up and follow
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up on and you can
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have automated different workflows etc that's there right now
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and it's really good
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maddox has that filevine has that clio debuted that now they
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all do it somewhat
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SPEAKER_01: differently but like you can plug into that
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SPEAKER_01: right now.
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And that's the kind of thing that I get really excited about
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for law firms.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: from a marketing perspective,
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it's actually really important because I want my clients to
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make more money doing
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SPEAKER_01: with what we're currently doing for them.
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SPEAKER_01: If they can convert,
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SPEAKER_01: they're really,
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SPEAKER_01: really hot,
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SPEAKER_01: the great leads at a slightly higher rate because of AI,
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SPEAKER_01: their marketing is working better,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: And so those are the type of things that I get really excited about.
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The problem with,
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and you mentioned this,
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trying to evaluate how you're doing in AI.
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You need to understand how the tools are actually determining
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ranking and how
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SPEAKER_01: you're performing.
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And because this is so amazingly personalized and because with
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the exception of
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SPEAKER_01: Google,
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SPEAKER_01: they actually can't scrape data.
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SPEAKER_01: You're not getting understanding of if you run this search,
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SPEAKER_01: it's on computer sampling as opposed to what actual users are doing.
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SPEAKER_01: So you're guessing, you're all guessing.
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SPEAKER_00: I saw a post today on LinkedIn and I can't remember who posted it.
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SPEAKER_00: It might've been Guy,
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SPEAKER_00: but there were,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to,
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there's Chrome extensions basically that are scraping your AI
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conversations that
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SPEAKER_00: you have with Claude and ChatGPT.
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SPEAKER_00: And I looked at the list and they all,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: if you hear that and you're suddenly worried,
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SPEAKER_00: they appear to be like VPN plugins.
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So if you have like a plugin that's supposed to act as a VPN,
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you might want to check it out.
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But that's one way I've heard these AI ranking tools are
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determining how your brand
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SPEAKER_00: shows up in AI.
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SPEAKER_00: But you have to question the data sampling there, right?
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You're getting data from people who have installed kind of a
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specific type of
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SPEAKER_00: plugin,
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SPEAKER_00: like a VPN.
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It's probably not sampling a hundred percent of their
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conversations and who the
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heck knows if that small group is the rate in which they
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actually look for
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SPEAKER_00: attorneys.
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SPEAKER_00: So like how often is the data going to be relevant to the legal industry?
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SPEAKER_00: And so there's,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of question marks there,
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SPEAKER_00: but I think that's the thing that I just have to roll my eyes.
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SPEAKER_00: Like we can't,
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it's so hard to track how we're ranking an AI search and the
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searches are so
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SPEAKER_00: personalized.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're 100% correct.
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SPEAKER_01: That's the problem.
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SPEAKER_01: The only entity that really has that data,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm probably wrong about that,
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but the only entity that I can think of that really has that
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data is Google through
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SPEAKER_01: Chrome,
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and they only have it for what they can see and whether or not
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they're actually
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SPEAKER_01: monitoring other AI platforms for...
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SPEAKER_01: how they work.
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SPEAKER_01: Like now you have antitrust.
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SPEAKER_01: Like I can't imagine they would do that.
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SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine they would do that.
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And yet I've been surprised by some of the things that Google
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has done in the past.
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So like,
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maybe I'm still naive about how Google works,
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but they're not going to share that data.
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Like they have the one thing that Google has demonstrated
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convincingly over the last
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SPEAKER_01: five,
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SPEAKER_01: if not eight years,
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is that they are holding their data much closer to the vest
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than they used to.
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SPEAKER_01: They've done that with LSA.
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SPEAKER_01: Look at LSAs for pay-per-click, for example.
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SPEAKER_01: They're not going to share that data until they start monetizing it.
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Well,
10:16
and I was talking with somebody yesterday and this is a through
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the grapevine thing.
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Like somebody was telling me they were talking to like an SEO
10:23
team and the SEO team
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SPEAKER_00: said,
10:26
SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: we talked to somebody who's works at Google,
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SPEAKER_00: who is a part of that team at Google.
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SPEAKER_00: And they said that you shouldn't do this SEO thing.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, they were asking me, like, does that sound right?
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like.
10:38
Like if a Google employee is sharing company secrets with some
10:43
random company,
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SPEAKER_00: like Google's going to fire them.
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SPEAKER_00: That's like one,
10:47
SPEAKER_00: like a somebody act,
10:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:48
SPEAKER_00: misconduct,
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I think probably because Google doesn't want people knowing how
10:51
their search works.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: And just think about it for a second.
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SPEAKER_00: Like why would Google share that?
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SPEAKER_00: And why would Google employees share that with other people?
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SPEAKER_00: I just always hated that.
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SPEAKER_00: Like we know somebody at Google.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, but yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: back in the super,
11:06
SPEAKER_01: this is when I was like super young at this,
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but people would get a picture of Matt Cutts standing at their
11:12
booth and like act
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SPEAKER_01: like he was on their board.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just like, come on, guys.
11:17
Come on.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: It's embarrassing.
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SPEAKER_01: You're embarrassing everyone, including Matt.
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SPEAKER_01: And he's being nice about it.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: So definitely AI is kind of changing things and we're all in this pivot.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Honestly,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: it's really refreshing because me personally,
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SPEAKER_00: I was starting to get bored with the same old,
11:34
SPEAKER_00: same old when it came to marketing.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And now we're just talking about like a whole new set of new things.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, like, what are you looking at?
11:42
SPEAKER_00: Like,
11:43
how are you changing your approach to marketing for yourself or
11:46
Mockingbird,
11:46
SPEAKER_00: just whatever.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: From an AI perspective or et cetera.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess, et cetera.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
11:52
we're kind of talking about AI because that's the force that
11:56
has changed marketing
11:57
SPEAKER_00: so much.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it doesn't have to be about that.
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SPEAKER_01: For me, the et cetera is, and there's a bunch of these.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: It's really,
12:04
SPEAKER_01: I kind of alluded to the chess piece example,
12:06
SPEAKER_01: but we're really leaning heavily on the chess example or analogy.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: I want to know, like, there's basics.
12:13
What's the volume of traffic on your site and what is the size
12:17
of your database?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Based on that...
12:20
SPEAKER_01: You should or should not be sending out a regular weekly email.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: You should or should not be doing display advertising.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: You should or should not be running video ads on YouTube, right?
12:30
SPEAKER_01: So let me give a different example.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: What is your target market and how can I reach them?
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So am I taking advantage of,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: let's say I do,
12:37
SPEAKER_01: let's say I'm a personal injury lawyer,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: which is most of my examples.
12:40
But how do I put my ads in households that I know have a
12:46
registered motorcycle,
12:47
SPEAKER_01: a motorcycle registered to that address?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: How do I do that?
12:51
SPEAKER_01: And in what months, right?
12:54
SPEAKER_01: So like,
12:54
I keep talking about these like other chess pieces that we can
12:56
be playing,
12:57
SPEAKER_01: like that's extreme targeting.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: Other things are like,
12:59
am I a magnanimous person that really likes being involved in
13:02
my community?
13:03
Is that reflected in what I'm doing on my website,
13:05
on social media in general?
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And by and large, it's absolutely not.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: How do I make sure that the things that I'm doing?
13:10
And by the way,
13:11
most law firms think they're involved in their community and
13:14
you're not.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Like just putting your logo on the back of the Turkey Trot t-shirt,
13:18
SPEAKER_01: like that's not really being involved in the community.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like a lot of your time is spent being involved in it.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: I'll use Ben Glass because he's such a great example of that.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Ben spends a ton of time refereeing soccer, right?
13:31
SPEAKER_01: And people know him for that.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And if you've ever had kids who played soccer,
13:34
you like him more because you know the abuse that every single
13:36
soccer referee puts
13:38
SPEAKER_01: up with,
13:38
SPEAKER_01: right?
13:38
SPEAKER_01: That's what he does.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: And he's deeply involved.
13:41
And he uses that as a vehicle to talk about giving back and
13:45
being a good person and
13:45
SPEAKER_01: the lessons of life and blah,
13:46
SPEAKER_01: blah,
13:47
SPEAKER_01: blah.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: that's the type of thing that I'd love to see.
13:49
But if you're not that type of person who's deeply involved in
13:51
your community,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: like don't play that chess piece.
13:53
There's so many,
13:54
like how do we maximize what we're getting out of local service
13:57
ads,
13:57
right?
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Like they're all these little different elements.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Should we have another office?
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Should we not have an office?
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Should we have fewer offices?
14:02
SPEAKER_01: Do we overexpand?
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Like I call it the centipede strategy,
14:06
SPEAKER_01: but like what is our,
14:07
SPEAKER_01: this needs to be part of your strategy.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: What is our geographical footprint?
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: in office space.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: And that is a marketing expense.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not a real estate or a mortgage expense.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: It's a lease expense.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: It's a location strategy, right?
14:19
SPEAKER_01: And everyone should have one.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:23
Whenever I'm talking to a law firm and we're talking about
14:26
working together,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: and you know how these interviews go.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's a lot of questions like, what tools are you using?
14:33
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing now?
14:34
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
14:35
SPEAKER_00: And some people are like, can you just give me the plan?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Just give me the roadmap.
14:40
And there really isn't a roadmap because a lot depends on the
14:43
owner and how the
14:45
owner wants to grow and how they're willing to participate in
14:48
the marketing.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Because unless you just go,
14:50
you hire actors to record your videos and you outsource all the
14:55
marketing to
14:56
SPEAKER_00: agencies and
14:57
SPEAKER_00: and just create like your business is advertised by a spokesperson,
15:01
SPEAKER_00: which,
15:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: that's a path a lot of law firms take.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: The owner is still involved in some capacity in the marketing.
15:08
And so it's important to like plot out the kind of marketing
15:12
that you're going to
15:12
SPEAKER_00: do and what will work for you at your scale,
15:15
SPEAKER_00: at your size,
15:17
SPEAKER_00: and how to build upon that.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Because like small law firm,
15:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:22
SPEAKER_00: not wanting to spend much money as far as marketing budget,
15:25
SPEAKER_00: they don't need to do PPC naturally.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of ways to reach our target audience.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think we tend to forget that when everyone's talking AI,
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Google,
15:35
SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn,
15:36
SPEAKER_00: these are not the only things,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: these are not the only types of marketing that exist.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm always surprising people by bringing them up.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: It does seem that there are a lot of,
15:46
SPEAKER_01: I find this,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: especially in the SEO world where there's kind of formulaic deliverables,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: right?
15:52
I'm going to do X number of blog posts and X number of links
15:55
and they're going to
15:56
SPEAKER_01: have a DR of Y and like,
15:57
we're just going to churn that out over the next 12 months and
16:00
it's going to make a
16:00
SPEAKER_01: change.
16:01
i've always looked at this world and maybe this is why my
16:05
agency isn't massive but
16:07
like i've always looked at this as a bespoke approach to your
16:13
business objectives
16:14
SPEAKER_01: your competitive reality
16:17
SPEAKER_01: and your existing assets or liabilities, right?
16:21
SPEAKER_01: And so you have to look at those three different things,
16:23
SPEAKER_01: put them together and understand for your firm,
16:26
SPEAKER_01: we should be doing these things and not those things.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: And like, that's where...
16:32
SPEAKER_01: marketing starts to work.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: And I find a lot of people believe that they're pay-per-click people.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: You believe that you should run pay-per-click.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: I talked to SEOs who were like, I can get any law firm to rank anywhere.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, really?
16:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: SEO might not be the right game for every single law firm.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's definitely not the right game for every single law firm.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: And so it really is about understanding,
16:54
SPEAKER_01: again,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: business objectives,
16:56
competitive sets and assets and liabilities and mapping out
16:59
what you want to do,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: what you can do with that and how to maximize that.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not every firm needs SEO, but every firm needs a website.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm still in that camp because the website's more than SEO.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's more than just like Google for sure.
17:17
What are the questions that you're getting from attorneys now
17:21
about marketing,
17:22
SPEAKER_00: SEO,
17:23
SPEAKER_00: AI,
17:24
SPEAKER_00: anything in that realm?
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, we just finished annual planning with someone.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: These are the questions that I think attorneys should be asking,
17:34
SPEAKER_01: and I'm hearing it from some of my clients.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: What's going on in the industry?
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: We've got Arizona.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: We've got consolidation.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: We've got larger firms are now being competing across larger.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: So that geographic expansion thing is happening everywhere.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: And so.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
18:00
SPEAKER_01: What should I be doing?
18:01
SPEAKER_01: How do we play the game?
18:03
SPEAKER_01: I'll use Top Dog as an example, but this exists elsewhere.
18:09
Should I have a relationship with Top Dog or should I be
18:11
terrified of them?
18:13
SPEAKER_01: how do I respond to someone coming into the market?
18:18
And like you get a Morgan's the other punching bag,
18:21
you know,
18:21
they're coming into my market.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: What am I supposed to do?
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:25
I will say my most prescient,
18:27
thoughtful,
18:28
big picture clients are asking me those questions.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: And the answers are hard, right?
18:37
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't really have great answers.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: I had this conversation with a great client.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: This is a client they've done very, very well.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: They work the centipede strategy.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: They've got lots of locations and what they have found in the last year.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: And I was nervous to kind of share this data with them,
18:53
SPEAKER_01: but they already knew it because they're a smart client.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: Like they have had a moat around their,
19:00
SPEAKER_01: primary locations, right?
19:02
SPEAKER_01: And so they've just killed it.
19:04
And basically they out-operated and out-spent everyone who were
19:08
in these markets.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: And what we've seen is now,
19:11
SPEAKER_01: if you were to,
19:13
SPEAKER_01: when we did this,
19:14
SPEAKER_01: when we graph their different markets,
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Google business profiles,
19:17
SPEAKER_01: how each of these different GBPs is performing,
19:20
What you're seeing is the places where we had what we believed
19:22
was a moat,
19:23
they're actually losing ground and their newer locations are
19:27
gaining ground.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: And what's basically happening is in their moat areas,
19:31
SPEAKER_01: the places where they were super,
19:33
SPEAKER_01: super strong,
19:33
you've got bigger competitors coming in and eating up part of
19:36
that market share.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And in the same way,
19:38
they're moving into other markets and bringing their level of
19:41
sophistication into
19:42
SPEAKER_01: other smaller markets.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: And they're now gaining some of that market share.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: So it is becoming a...
19:48
SPEAKER_01: We're moving from like JV to varsity or college,
19:51
SPEAKER_01: like to use a sports ball analogy,
19:54
SPEAKER_01: like it's getting more difficult to play the game.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And so we have to be more sophisticated in how we play the game.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
20:02
SPEAKER_00: I was talking with an attorney who I'm going to try to leave out names,
20:06
but a big law firm in their state basically opened an office
20:11
across the street and
20:13
SPEAKER_00: overnight got seemingly overnight got a couple hundred reviews.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:19
All of a sudden,
20:20
you know,
20:20
we were not ranking nearly as well as we were before.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to tell the attorney,
20:27
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:27
SPEAKER_00: look,
20:27
SPEAKER_00: if we want to get back up there,
20:30
our level of effort needs to somewhat match theirs because they
20:35
didn't get,
20:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:36
they didn't just click their fingers and open up a Google
20:39
business listing.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: They have systems for getting more reviews.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:43
And you do have to level up like your internal marketing
20:47
systems to match those
20:48
SPEAKER_00: when you have that big competitor move in the area.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: it usually means like more money,
20:54
SPEAKER_00: more talent,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: more focus and,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: other more things,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: I guess.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Can't think of anybody else to add the list though.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: So...
21:01
No,
21:02
but the list includes things like understanding what it takes
21:05
to run a larger business.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: Your operations have to be great.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Your intake has to be amazing.
21:10
You have to be willing to take lower value cases because there
21:13
is a volume game to all of this.
21:15
You have to be really good at finding and identifying the
21:17
really high value cases
21:18
SPEAKER_01: and getting as much out of them as they can.
21:20
I'll go so far,
21:21
and this is not really marketing,
21:22
but in any other business,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: This would be more,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: we don't think of this as marketing,
21:27
SPEAKER_01: but in any other business,
21:28
SPEAKER_01: this is a component of marketing.
21:29
How do you maximize the value of the opportunities that come
21:33
into the office?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Right?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: So like how many of them are going to trial?
21:36
Are we actually getting as much value out of every single
21:38
matter that we possibly can?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: That's a marketing problem that, that.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Law firms don't think of as a marketing problem.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: It's an operations problem.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: But like any other business,
21:49
SPEAKER_01: you think about how do I maximize the lifetime value of this client,
21:52
SPEAKER_01: right?
21:52
Well,
21:52
you're mostly doing one-offs,
21:54
which means you need to maximize the value of the matter.
21:57
That needs to be part of the marketing equation when you're
22:00
dealing with these more
22:00
SPEAKER_01: sophisticated businesses because someone else is thinking about that.
22:04
And if you need to compete on that level,
22:06
you need to be thinking about that as well.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
22:09
And then call one of these businesses and see how quickly they
22:13
pick up the phone,
22:14
SPEAKER_00: what their systems are like,
22:16
SPEAKER_00: are you sent to voicemail or reception or what?
22:19
SPEAKER_00: Because,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: and I,
22:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:22
SPEAKER_00: this is my like fringe conspiracy theory,
22:25
but I surely believe like where Google can monitor our inbound
22:29
phone calls,
22:30
SPEAKER_00: even outside of local service ads,
22:32
SPEAKER_00: like where Google can monitor phone calls to our business,
22:36
SPEAKER_00: I think they're tracking like how our intake teams perform.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: I think how our intake teams perform is a soft ranking factor.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: And we know that's true with local service ads.
22:46
And we know Google is just greedy for data and will do
22:50
downright enough shady
22:51
SPEAKER_00: things to collect it.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: So like,
22:53
SPEAKER_00: in a way,
22:54
SPEAKER_00: like,
22:55
and I don't like to blend intake and marketing because that's
22:57
sales and marketing
22:58
SPEAKER_00: and those are traditionally independent.
23:01
But what happens on the phone at your law firm is critically
23:05
important to how
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Google will perceive and ultimately rank your business.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: At least that's what I think.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can tell me I'm wrong, but.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't disagree at all.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: We haven't talked about intake whisper.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: I call it training the dragon, how to train your dragon, right?
23:21
Intake whispering into Google's ears as a part of how they
23:25
build a picture of your business.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: They've been explicit about LSAs.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: In LSAs, they tell you what they're listening for.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: They're listening for pricing information.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: They're listening for biography information.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: They're listening for what you do.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: And they're listening for,
23:38
SPEAKER_01: and I don't think this applies to law firms,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: but special promotions,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: right?
23:42
SPEAKER_01: So like
23:42
SPEAKER_01: Two for one.
23:43
Hopefully there's no two for ones in legal,
23:45
but they tell you what they're listening for.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: So like start feeding the dragon what it needs to hear, right?
23:50
They also want to know like if people are sent to your law
23:53
firm,
23:53
do you help them or not?
23:54
SPEAKER_01: If most of your calls are like, hey, we don't handle that, move on.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: Or your case isn't big enough or you don't make enough money, move on.
23:59
Like you're literally telling the entity that is sending you
24:03
business that this is
24:04
SPEAKER_01: business that you do not want,
24:05
SPEAKER_01: right?
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And that is happening on phone calls.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: So intake, overpay your intake people and have really careful training
24:12
SPEAKER_01: how they deal with people, but also how they deal with who's listening.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Because I think of that as being part of the marketing engine as well,
24:21
SPEAKER_01: because you're feeding that data back in.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: It's so important.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Well,
24:25
and I think there's an element of the owner needs to be really
24:27
serious about intake
24:29
SPEAKER_00: as well.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Cause I've worked with law firms where the owner won't tolerate mistakes.
24:34
I mean,
24:35
and it seems mean,
24:36
but they're really good at coaching and managing their team.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Everyone is happy there.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: They just know like there's practically zero tolerance for draw,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: letting a phone not calling leads back,
24:49
SPEAKER_00: letting it ring too long.
24:50
And we're always monitoring the systems to try to make those
24:53
things better.
24:54
And then you have the law firm owners who want to make intake
24:59
more comfortable for
25:00
SPEAKER_00: their intake team.
25:02
So they set up things that sound nice,
25:04
like,
25:04
oh,
25:05
we can,
25:05
I'll do all the intakes.
25:06
You just take their information or we don't have to document
25:10
the bad leads.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Let's just document the good leads.
25:13
And when you're doing things like that,
25:15
particularly with documentation,
25:16
like,
25:18
SPEAKER_00: If 20 people call your law firm,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: only five end up in your system and somebody is telling you,
25:23
SPEAKER_00: well,
25:23
SPEAKER_00: the others aren't qualified.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: How do you know?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Like you don't know.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: You're just taking it on faith.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's just so important to one,
25:32
care and convey that you care to your teams and just be very
25:37
serious about take and
25:38
SPEAKER_00: take seriously.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people don't.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: I think that intake,
25:42
I think one of the most common mistakes on intake is you take
25:45
the most experienced
25:45
SPEAKER_01: intake person and you make them the intake manager,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: right?
25:48
SPEAKER_01: And that is a problem.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I think the intake,
25:52
the person who listens in on intake or manages that entire
25:56
process needs to be
25:57
SPEAKER_01: someone who doesn't work in it,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: who's really has the ability to make change.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Also,
26:01
who's going to take the time to proactively manage intake and
26:05
recognize that is
26:05
SPEAKER_01: going to take
26:07
SPEAKER_01: two hours a week, three hours a week, four hours a week.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: And that amount of time is actually really well spent.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: If you sit down and you say,
26:14
we're going to listen to your best call and your worst call
26:15
from this week.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And know that that tells people that people are listening,
26:19
SPEAKER_01: that we care,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: that we're working to manage and correct and reward awesomeness.
26:24
So I think that's one piece there is,
26:26
and this is not my business,
26:27
but there's a great intake.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: We talk about AI and tools, check out speed AI.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: It
26:32
SPEAKER_01: great Hayden Haskins and his brother.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: When they first showed this off, it was like two years ago.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And it was like,
26:37
basically what the speed AI does is it listens in on intake and
26:39
it scores every
26:40
SPEAKER_01: single call.
26:41
And it tries to evaluate whether or not you need to get someone
26:43
else involved to
26:44
SPEAKER_01: try and do a save of what was a really good lead.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Now that's lead scoring.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: We talked about that earlier when they originally launched this,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: launched this,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
26:53
SPEAKER_01: this is really cool.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Can I see it?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: And it was like, well, it's a PowerPoint.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: And we think it might be like, we might build it.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: They've built it now and it's pretty awesome.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: So
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Intake as a component of marketing.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I know you said it's a difference between sales and marketing,
27:06
but there's a lot of this stuff that's filtering into making
27:10
law firms successful.
27:11
And intake has been kind of at the lowest of low-hanging fruits
27:15
because we don't
27:16
SPEAKER_01: really respect our intake people and we underpay them.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's that.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: And then also when you think about like,
27:23
what are the jobs out there where the dominant thing you do is
27:26
use the phone,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: call centers,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: telemarketing.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's an undesirable job for a lot of people.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's just a fact.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: I did telemarketing.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I have the authority to say such.
27:38
And,
27:39
you know,
27:39
there's very few people who are like,
27:41
I want to be on the phones all day.
27:43
But there are also quite a few people who wouldn't mind being
27:46
on the phones and
27:47
SPEAKER_00: like talking to people who like giving a good customer experience.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And you can find them like it is not hard to find a good intake person,
27:56
but it's not going to be it shouldn't be like a cheap employee
28:01
or shouldn't be
28:01
SPEAKER_00: somebody who you're paying.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what a really cheap salary is.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: It's 35, 40,000 a year.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: And you're just crossing your fingers and hope it works out.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: You know,
28:10
SPEAKER_00: it needs somebody who has a level of professionalism,
28:14
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: or accountability for the role and how they do for sure.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: So I guess what else is new at Mockingbird?
28:22
Are you guys launching any new products or making any changes
28:26
or is it just a fresh
28:28
SPEAKER_00: start new year kind of thing?
28:30
SPEAKER_01: So this is much more internal than external.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: We have over the last two years completely revamped our leadership stack.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I have,
28:41
SPEAKER_01: depending on how you count it,
28:42
SPEAKER_01: two to four people in our leadership team that have not been involved,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: who are no more than two years old there.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: And that has been, that's been our biggest change.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: And it's been,
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: it was like one of those things like from pure experience,
28:57
SPEAKER_01: like now that I've experienced this,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: like it's so obvious,
29:00
SPEAKER_01: but we weren't really on the same page before.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: We had four people that were roughly moving in a similar direction,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: but like that doesn't really work.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I would say at this point in time,
29:12
SPEAKER_01: we now have a really dedicated understanding of where we want to go.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: This whole chess piece thing, like,
29:18
SPEAKER_01: When you try and run the chess pieces,
29:19
SPEAKER_01: some people have little chess pieces that like more than others.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And when they have a leadership role,
29:23
SPEAKER_01: like we move too heavy in that direction,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: we move too heavy in that direction.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: And so like,
29:27
it's really about our clients and understanding what works for
29:30
our clients and
29:30
SPEAKER_01: having that client centricity as opposed to like,
29:32
SPEAKER_01: what are things I like to build because I like to build things.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: And so that's been a really big shift.
29:37
The happy end result of that is better financials because we're
29:40
not blowing a ton
29:41
SPEAKER_01: of money on stuff that we do.
29:43
weren't really agreed on so we're performing better but it's
29:46
really around the
29:48
chess pieces and really being unified on that vision which
29:51
sounds really kind of
29:52
corny who moved my cheese-ish but like I've watched it happen
29:56
over two years and
29:57
SPEAKER_01: it's pretty cool
29:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
29:59
SPEAKER_00: it's when you own a business and you go through a few cycles,
30:02
SPEAKER_00: like you do reach a point where you're like,
30:03
SPEAKER_00: duh,
30:04
SPEAKER_00: it was so obvious.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: I know.
30:06
Like I should have done it this way or I should have done it
30:09
that way or I
30:10
SPEAKER_00: shouldn't have bought that,
30:11
SPEAKER_00: should have bought this.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's so,
30:13
so relatable when you do like run a company and just trying to
30:18
do your best the
30:19
SPEAKER_00: whole time.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: You still end up finding things you wish you did differently,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: which is,
30:23
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
30:23
SPEAKER_00: part of the fun of it.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: I find that like this has hit me.
30:27
It's hit me twice really like straight across the face where I
30:31
have had coaches or
30:33
SPEAKER_01: consultants who I feel like I said to this to Lisa,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Lisa,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you're 300 years old.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you've had 300 years worth of experience,
30:43
SPEAKER_01: but it's just because she does this as a consultant over and over again.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Lisa was just badgering me about our accounting firm just over and over.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: Like you need, and she would not let go.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Lisa, they're fine.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And finally I rolled and we replaced them.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Oh my gosh, how did I not see this?
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: And so,
31:03
SPEAKER_01: My takeaway for this is like,
31:04
I want to have consultants and coaches and the professionals
31:07
that I work with,
31:08
SPEAKER_01: I want it to feel like they are 300 years old,
31:10
that they've got like 300 years worth of experience where they
31:15
can walk in and be
31:16
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:16
SPEAKER_01: that's really stupid,
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Connor.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, no, no.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, no, no, no, it really is stupid.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: So I've done that with accounting, with kind of CFO level people.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: I've done it with operations people recently.
31:28
I've got an amazing HR person who like,
31:32
again,
31:32
I feel like she's 300 years old.
31:33
She's just got the bigger perspective that I'm missing as like
31:38
end of one business owner.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And so that's been my biggest problem.
31:43
shift over the last two or three years and it's kind of coming
31:45
to fruition that
31:46
it's kind of this beautiful amalgam of awesome right now yeah
31:50
yeah sometimes i go
31:51
back and forth it's like do i need a business coach or a
31:54
therapist and then i
31:55
suddenly realized like that's why there are so many mindset
31:59
coaches out there
32:00
because you kind of blend the two in the way but well we're
32:02
coming up i guess on
32:03
the end of the show so was there anything that we didn't talk
32:06
about that you wanted
32:08
SPEAKER_00: to talk about or go over on the show
32:10
SPEAKER_01: No, I think we can end it with like 2026, blank slate.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: There's lots of opportunity.
32:17
I think there's lots of opportunity for creativity in your
32:20
firm,
32:21
both marketing and running it.
32:23
And like 2026,
32:24
it is going to be a tumultuous year with a midterm election.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: So let's not take that out of the equation.
32:29
But when you can revolutionize your business during a period of
32:32
tumult,
32:33
like it's awesome.
32:35
So I'm optimistic for 2026 for those people who are going to
32:38
kind of jump on it and
32:39
SPEAKER_01: grab it and get creative and get better.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: Well,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: and you talked about the elections and I just kind of like,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: oh my gosh,
32:46
SPEAKER_00: they affect marketing rates so much.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's so frustrating.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Never.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: And people say they get annoyed with legal marketing.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I get annoyed with
32:54
SPEAKER_00: The congressman who calls me like,
32:57
or not literally the automated congressman who calls me asking
33:01
for support like
33:02
SPEAKER_00: twice a week.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like, come on, you need a break.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, where do you want people to go look you up to learn more about you?
33:08
SPEAKER_01: It used to be easy.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: So like I have a very strange name.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: It's Conrad Song with two A's.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: So that's easy to find from an SEO perspective.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: If it's not like I'm not doing my job, I'm all over social.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: And then there's a LHLM podcast.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: So you can listen to us there as well.
33:20
But I am fairly easy to find and mostly friendly unless you
33:23
work at Scorpion.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Mostly friendly.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: You got to go after those guys.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: I'll just confess to you really quick,
33:30
SPEAKER_00: but I,
33:31
SPEAKER_00: for years,
33:32
I thought your name was Sam and I was confused why people
33:36
called you by your last
33:38
SPEAKER_00: name first.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: And then it finally clicked with me and I'm like, oh my gosh.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: But that happens.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I've lived my life with that.
33:43
The other thing,
33:44
when I lived in Ireland for a year and it was like,
33:47
Connor,
33:48
are you Irish?
33:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I just stopped correcting people.
33:51
So all of my Irish friends,
33:52
all the friends that I had in Ireland still think my name is
33:54
Connor.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: That was a good Irish accent.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: That was a special treat.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, special treat.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: All right.
34:00
Well,
34:01
thank you so much for joining me and being on the show today
34:04
and everyone for listening.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: And I guess we'll just see everyone next time.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: Sounds great.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Bye guys.