Latest / Project StrengthCast / Coaches Need Models, Not More Information | Ep.8 with Jamie Smith

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Coaches Need Models, Not More Information | Ep.8 with Jamie Smith · Project StrengthCast

• jay: welcome to episode eight of Project Strength Cast. the objective of this podcast series was always to bring the best in the game in terms of information, coaching, athletes, the whole nine yards, right? We want to kind kind of give people the idea of how to think, what to apply, and when things don't work. How do you actually have a system that allows you to work through this? Today we are joined by Jamie Smith. Jamie is the first mentorship that I ever did when I transitioned from being a commercial lawyer into the space of like health and fitness. Jamie is an extremely influential individual in terms of how I think and many other coaches think. I think what Jamie brings to the table is an immense wealth of knowledge, both in terms of the theoretical frameworks but also practical application. Jamie has been has coached world-class powerlifters. He has o he has oper owned and operated his own gym. He is now currently focused on online education with one of the most brilliant mentorship opportunities that I think everyone should check out. So I want to say Jamie Smith, thank you so much for your time and I hope you guys have an amazing time listening to this episode. Jamie Smith: it. Tapas: I'm just gonna firstly we're gonna be talking about training models, what they actually are and why coaches need to adopt them. If you ask me personally, I think this is one of the more important things you need to watch from this episode among many we're gonna be asking Jamie about his own training model, how he kind of views coaching. Then we're gonna be talking about the bone first and the muscle first models in biomechanics. This is also another super important topic Okay, what they are, why understanding biomechanics from this point of view demystifies common issues like tight hip flexors or shoulder instability, things like that. And we're also going to talk about why it is key to understand internal and external load when we actually approach a client. So yeah, that's what the topic list is. Let's just get started here. jay: I just want to kind of toss this up in the air. Like the first time I did Jamie's mentorship, I was kind of taught about like what is a model framework, right? why do coaches need models, right? It took me a bit of time to understand why we needed models, but I think it was by far the most influential thing that I have ever absorbed as a coach. So, Jamie, if you could like simplify things for people, what is a training model? Why is it important for people? Jamie Smith: Well, that's good to hear. I'm glad. I'm glad it had a big impact. I think the crux of it is that we don't have all the information. we will we will never have all the information. It doesn't matter how much data you pull, how many questions you ask, how many lifts you observe, how many camera angles, force plates. It doesn't matter. Whatever your data collection strategy is, we'll never have all of the information. Science is trying to find. More objectivity in the information and understanding. But at the end of the day, we don't have all the information. So at some point, assumptions need to be made and guesses need to be made. a lot of practical coaches will lean on their experience for those assumptions, which is completely fine. but I think having a model or at least thinking about the way you think and problem solve, you don't have to have like a framework and a process that you go through. But I think all elite coaches and Allied Health or whatever, anybody that helps people, I think at some point has gone through the process of analysing how they think and problem solve and and identifying the assumptions that you make from your experiences, from your knowledge, from your understanding, identifying the holes in your understanding and trying to fill them with as good of information as you can. but at the end of the day, we don't have all the information. So at some point, assumptions need to be made. And a good model makes less assumptions. That's the that's the central crux of why everyone needs one. if your model is faulty and doesn't have solid foundation, whether it be in like hard science or actual experience, like you're just brainwashed by other people, you just consume their information and and and just. vomit it back out to the next person. your your decision making Tapas: Critical thinking. Jamie Smith: yeah your decision making's faulty. You're you're you're you're not you're not being sort of you're not helping people. You're really not. Yeah. Assumptions Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: are there. They're always going to be there. A good model makes less assumptions. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, I think like as you said, like all the all the good coaches in the world have access to the same scientific data that's being produced, like in terms of research papers. We all get the same access, but every single good coach, they have their own slight tweak of understanding of what they what their own perception of the data as well as how to apply it for their clients and their people, right? So that's why you might see like even if we have the same kind of scientific data available to us. We still have slight differences in understanding and implementation from client to client, which is why sometimes one may find the answer for somebody and one may not find the answer for someone. Right? And all good coaches, they are all making very good educated guesses. And it all depends on how well you're able to relay your end of the story to them and how they're able to perceive what's happening with you. So, like that's also why you need to have a good understanding of training principles, because training principles is what makes the system in the first place. Like if if you understand the principles really well, then you have like a good foundation as you said. And once you've set up a good foundation, then you can build on that and you have a good model for intaking clients as well. And also like, jay: Yeah, information. Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, you have like a good information system of having clients taking when when you take them in, and then you also can cater to their specific needs better. Tapas: It also makes the process Jamie Smith: Hundred percent. Tapas: a bit easier, quicker. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: Yeah. because I I did wanna say is like one one of the things again, I go back to Jamie's mentorship in terms of the things that I kind of picked up is the fact that I I we're dealing with humans that are like moving targets, right? When you have these moving targets, you kind of have to understand the simple fact that they're always evolving. People will have problems that they didn't once have. So how do you kind of resolve this thing? Because for example, when you look at a programming model, you may be approaching programming through certain lens, but when you look at someone's response towards pain, why do you need to have a multifactorial level of understanding for that stuff? Right. When we kind of go through the BPS model for pain, why is it very important to have an understanding for that, right? And that is when like I think passing information, correct me if I'm wrong, Jamie, like the whole idea is that when you have these models of be it programming, be it biomechanics, be it pain un understanding pain, i these are just great ways to kind of parse through the noise and find the signal that we need. Jamie Smith: Yeah, I think that's a that's a very simple way to think about it. Yeah. Absolutely. It it it allows you to gather information faster and process the information more accurately. Yeah. And and what I would always recommend to coaches is it takes years to develop your understanding. Like you need experience with that. But obviously, like as you're learning from people. more important than learning their methods, and it it actually takes a while to determine, I'm just actually learning somebody's strategy right now rather than the way they think. when you when whenever you're trying to pick up information and learn, whether it's through structured mentorships, just looking at social media content, listening to podcasts or any of those sort of things, tr try to identify what the actual base principle that the the decision is being made off of. because absolutely like the principles create the foundation, the framework. through which the decisions then get made from. So information comes in, you pick up better information, and you can more accurately deal with that information. That's that's the whole idea of developing a model. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. That that's also why like it's very important to understand how a person is trying to think and problem solve rather than just copy pasting what they're doing. Because like the end of the day, like what you might see is that b because this is something that we encounter a lot in India, like something that I've seen a lot, is that I get a lot of coaches who copy paste programs and cues and stuff like that, Tapas: Hm. Kaushal Sumedh: whereas these programs and cues are are like for individually Based people, right? Like you talk to them on an individual level, so you create that program on an individual level. So when people copy that and and they sell it, sure, for the generic person, it might help to some degree because some structured program is still better than nothing, right? But then there's a there's a point where you can push that person and then you you can't figure out any existing or further created problems, right? Like any problems that might show up around the on on the you know on the journey of coaching somebody, you might not be able to figure out, figure it out. Because you don't have the ability to think for yourself. You're just copying somebody else's strategy. Like, as you said, you need to understand like at a baseline level what that person is trying to think. Of course, you can't like 100% figure out everything. But you you still need to kind of just understand like where that where that person is trying to come from. Every time you're trying to learn from somebody who's better than you, you wanna or you think is better than you, or they have something to offer for you to learn from, right? You just wanna. see where they come from so that you can carry that forward and maybe develop that even better. Because eventually that's that's where things go, right? Like in future generations you're looking for things to maybe they get they get a better expansion and understanding of what we currently understand. And that can only happen if they actually put in the effort to try and understand what we're talking about. Jamie Smith: Hundred percent. Absolutely. jay: And this is one reason I would highly one reason I'd highly recommend people actually work with guys like Jamie. It's not just because he's on the podcast that I'm saying this, it's just the fact that I lucked out. I always tell people I kind of lucked out on the fact that my first mentorship was with Jamie, and it was almost confrontational in the beginning for me because there was no how to do this, but what to think to do this thing, right? Because in the Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. jay: age of information, one of the things I loved about Jamie's mentorship was every time a bias that Jamie helped, he would always raise his hand and say, like a personal bias. Kind of a situation. He would mention that it was a bias, right? So I always found value in that as well because in the age of social media, you will find so much sensory overload from like just information being put on of this is the one magic pill, that is the one thing, right? Knees over toes, toes over knees, right? The whole nine yards, right? So you kind of again we kind of go back down to like base level principles and understand how do you pass through all of the noise. And I think like Jamie, like when we talk about models, I remember the first time I saw your like personal model. I just sat there and I was just like trying to like what is going on in this thing? Right. But by the end of the mentorship, I was like, I understand why he thinks this way. Like so if it's if it's if it's okay with you, could you just like kind of give us a bit more of an understanding of your personal coaching model? Jamie Smith: Yeah, it's pretty detailed. It's easier if I could draw it, but I'll I'll do my best to to go through the the base layers of it. the the first principle that builds the foundation of the model is that the central nervous system is a reactive system. So what that means is that the nervous system doesn't it it does preempt things, but it it preempts things based off something. but for the most part, movement expression Shifts in position, shifts in tension, shifts in expressions, are all a reactive process. so information has to come in. Sensory inputs need to come in. They are processed at the level of the nervous system, and then motor outputs begin to express. And those expressions are actually emergent. So you hear you might hear of dynamic systems theory, things like that. So like The emergence of behavior, the emergence of outcomes are also ultimately like a a big melting pot of influence. and depending on what the melting pot is kind of doing at that point in time, will change the emergence of a behavior or an expression. the movement expression is no different to that. And then that's when you get into constraints-based ideas. So constraints are ultimately trying to constrain the output in some direction. So you kind of like gate it and force it through. force the emergence through a narrower channel to get the emergence that you want. But at the end of the day, base principle number one is that the central nervous system is a reactive system. So to change the output, we must change the input. That's the only way that you can make an adjustment to the output. For coaches, the simplest way to think about that is just barking the same cue all the time is not changing the input. you are trying to force an output change rather than either changing position, changing understanding, changing confidence, change tempo, change something on an input level to to change the expression on the other end. Like that's the most rudimentary breakdown of that in application. So that that builds the first that's like the the the deepest layer of the the the model. So it only flows in one direction, outputs processing in sorry, inputs processing outputs, it only flows in that direction. so to change the outputs, we must change the inputs. And then everything from then on is what are the inputs. So what are the direct inputs that we can change? so when we go a layer deeper, center of mass base of support is principle number two. so basically just balance shift mass, change base, and you get a reactive change of everything in the system. so that's base principle two. Base principle three is internal pressure. so space, volume, diaphragm, breathing, rib cage, abdominal pressure, pelvic pressure. the reason that's after center of mass is because center of mass influences internal pressure. So it it just layers on Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: another lap layer from that. Base principle number four is forces are managed and created in two directions. So proximal to distal. So mass will jay: Yep. Yep. Jamie Smith: move. Which then shifts axial skeleton, which then shifts appendicular skeleton. and then distal to proximal. So we contact something, force comes through the ground, through the barbell, through something, and force distally comes in and influences. So that's base principle four, base principle five, which is the fifth one, is motion. So once forces start moving, motion is expressed in two ways. It can be relative. So an Independent or a specific joint positional, bone positional change under load or orientational, a subgroup of bones will move together and orient in the same direction. It's without showing the diagram, it it once you've got the diaphragm, it takes a few weeks to kind of be like, where the fuck is this guy coming from? but once you Tapas: Yeah. jay: Yep, yep. Jamie Smith: get it, I think it it very simply becomes, okay. This these are my options. Like these are Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Smith: these are all of my options. Then and then there's the layer deeper, which then gets into programming, which I've actually changed from my programming model. I don't call it that anymore. I now call it my client management model because it's it's deeper than programming, it's communication, it's language, it's it's so much more than just like what's on the program. So my client client management model branches off from the movement model, which becomes base ideas like top-down, bottoms-up frameworks of constraints, specificity is a principle and load management is the main one. Yeah. jay: And I I want to kind of say this. Jamie Smith: So hopefully you could follow those ideas, but yeah. jay: Honestly, like I I tell e ev everyone listen listening to this that it's like a Swiss Army knife, you know, like Jamie's when you first see the thing, i everything Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: all all the tools are out there. And then like Jamie said, it is kind of hard at yeah, it is kinda hard at Kaushal Sumedh: No sorry, go on, go on. jay: the f it is kinda hard at the first time, but I think that is why if you spend what I loved about the mentorship, we spend on each single like framework for a period of time and then you see how these things kind of kind of go into each other. Like the first thing, for example, the whole thing about the set like it it is a sensory input that kind of comes and we react to that kind of an input, right? I think that's where cueing because I think we've all kind of seen that queuing is like What are we trying to get as an outcome, right? Like Jamie's model kind of tells us like we want to get the outcome. We don't really care about the input if we can kind of effectively communicate that outcome for people. Because a lot of times people just don't get it, right? Especially in countries like India Jamie Smith: Yes. jay: where there are so many languages. Yeah, exactly. And in India it becomes like a a a a clusterfuck for a lack of better term, because there is so many languages. So you kind of have to find like a system around that thing. But I think having a fundamental model like that. is very helpful so that people can kinda go through this thing. Right? Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, I was gonna say like you also wanna touch upon the fact that it's also very important as a client to be able to communicate with your coach and say that like I just didn't get it. It's okay. You know, a lot of times people I think they're embarrassed to admit that they don't understand and then you keep seeing the same output that you don't wanna see for like so long, and you're like eventually you're like, Did you fucking get it or no? Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: I just wanna know, like if you don't get it, it's okay. I'll change the way I teach. Right? 'Cause 'cause I tell people that a lot of times 'cause that happened to me recently where I was like I see no difference like a few months ago to now. I've been like telling you these things again and again and again. And every single time you're like, I get it, I get it. But then I don't see the output. That's the eventual goal that we're looking at, right? Because we want to see that the the outcome and we want to see improvement in you as well. Because that kind of reflects on how we're teaching you as well, right? So if you don't understand, Jamie Smith: Hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: it's okay. You can just tell us that you didn't understand. And then we'll try to change that. Like, okay, this these cues Jamie Smith: So Kaushal Sumedh: are not making sense, so I'm gonna change the way I teach you. Jamie Smith: Yeah, so Jay, you haven't been through the reupdated levels of it all. But in the last intake, so since I since I made the transition off the gym and I was I was moving to this full time, I I spent probably six months being like, how do I make because obviously my my my f for newer for people that have been exposed to me through whether it be the Strength Culture podcast, my my longer format content, maybe they can Maybe they can follow the short format content and and like the typical soundbite s stuff, like well, like I there's no doubt in my mind that if you s if you spend enough time with me and the ideas, they will start to make sense and they will just open your fucking vantage for how to apply these things. jay: Yep. Yep. Jamie Smith: But in transitioning to this full time, I I took a step back a little bit and was like, how do I make this more easy to digest for people that aren't at that level? So I started building, because I've got all these things in my head and I use all these things, but I started building coaching frameworks through the model. So exactly how to apply them, not methods, but in application, what are the things that we're actually doing to problem solve these things? And I I came up with about eight to ten of them. I still can't rattle them off the top of my head because it it's only just been the last six months I've really put them on paper. But the first one, and this answers how do you get people to understand stuff? The first one is. Client-led exploration. So I put everything on a continuum because it's just how my autistic brain works. When I visually see something, it just makes so much more sense. when trying to deliver a communication, an understanding, trying to coach, when you're trying to coach, there's two directions that it can come from. Number one is From your experience, your assumption that you know what the client understands and what they need. So I would view that as coach led processing. So that would be somebody comes in, they tell you what their goals are, they tell you their availabilities, and you just build the thing. And it's like, yeah, I know what to do. It could be viewed as top down. You set the structure and they play within it. the opposite to that is client-led processes, which is you just ask way more questions. Way more. Well, how do you want things structured? How do you want to do this? How do you blah blah blah blah blah blah like it's a programming sense, but from the movement sense, it's you don't coach until you need to coach. So you just say, yeah, show us show us a squat. And they'll just do the squat. Before I start coaching, I would go straight to my first layer of of of understanding, which is foot pressure. What do you feel in your feet? And then they'll do a set, they'll tell you what they feel in the feet. What do you feel with your brace? They do it but and then By going through the client-led process, they give you all of their knowledge of where their current feeling and understanding is. And then that's where you coach from. Because you start in a place that is understood to them. They would never have said those words if they didn't understand it. And if they don't know what their foot pressure feels like, they'll literally be like, I I got nothing. So you know straight away, all right, I've got to go back to tripod foot. I got to go back to. mid foot pressure versus heel Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Smith: pressure or something like that. I think I think a lot of the confusion in why does this person not get it? Why can they not understand it is because you've gone too too much coach led processing rather than start it at the client. A classic cliche for it would be meet them where they're at. You didn't even understand where they were at to start with to meet them there. Like you've got to find where they're at. You know where you're at. You could fucking go wherever you need to, but you've got to work out where they're at before you can even meet them where they're at. So That's the actual first framework that I've kind of been layering and building through through my education stuff, which is client led exploration. jay: 'Cause I I I think Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: like Just a way of thinking about how I pass information when you get an online client. You you probably don't meet them in person. So the thing is of like perception judgment action, kind of like a flowchart like that. Like what is their current perception? Like for example, if you if you ask someone like how do you squat and they'll say, Well, you have to be straight, right? And what does that mean? Do they have to be stacked or straight? Like they're they're s like we would assume straight as in terms of you want the ribcage and the pelvis to be stacked, right? So the thing Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: but some folks will think you the their perception is they have to be upright and straight. They cannot have a forward. So the perception, therefore, is kind of not what we want. So kind of introducing them to that element of perception kind of allows them to kind of execute on a better level. I think that I I find that perception judgment action kind of flowchart to be very helpful for someone like me. Right. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: And and I did want to ask a question. We asked this question, like the Anas as well with us on the last episode. When you have guys who wanna you you want to give them some sensory drills, right? You want to give them some sensory breathing drills, things like that. A lot of times, like I I personally struggle with it sometimes when folks don't kind of get it, right? In terms of how to kind of execute just the breathing framework, things along those lines. I find breathing drills to be very helpful because they do, like you said, that it gives them that sensation, kind of like calms down the nervous Tapas: Mm. jay: system and it gives them That sensation. And powerlifters, Jamie, you you know like a lot of like orientation, like behavior. There's there's very like limited in terms of like trunk rotation, trunk movement. So I want to kind of ask you: when you kind of look at someone that wants to go through these breathing rules, how do you ensure that what you want is what they do? Jamie Smith: so first thing again, it's client led. So before we even get into like how to apply or or coach breathing drills, I think like the the base idea is like what are you actually trying to get from that process? So within my framework, I group them all, all low level, non, non not the non-productive, but non-progressible movements. so they have a limit. To their loadability, they have a limit to their their application for objective training outcomes for strength hypertrophy, range of motion, endurance, and all those sort of things. Like anything that doesn't have that framework of progression, it automatically ends and skews to the sensory end. So breathing drills are definitely a sensory-based application strategy. so when I think of sensory-based drills, what I'm actually trying to do is trying to build client awareness. I'm trying to drum up sensory input. So that I can change the way that their nervous system starts to process and and manage their position in space. That's ultimately all I'm trying to do. so breathing drills within that, there's a skill to the execution of them that can be taught in any position. The particular position doesn't matter. And the skill is what needs to be developed before you get any benefit from any particular. I I I use the analogy of a sniper. When you're trying to snipe an outcome, when you're trying to really refine and and fine-tune where you're aiming this thing and what you're trying to get from it, the first, before you can become a sniper, you have to shoot a shotgun, which is get the base skill downloaded so that they can actually execute and pull the trigger when you're when you're ready to snipe. So breathing drills are no different. Like they have to understand the base skill of what I'm asking for you to do in a breathing drill. so I would recommend To all coaches that want to use breathing drills, is you I think three positions is all you need. you need a supine position, you need a rock back position, and then you need some variant of closing one side and opening the other side. I use sideline more than anything else now. but just learn to coach three base breathing positions. and then if you can understand what each one of them kind of picks up versus the other ones, what their unique qualities are, spend as much time as you need to develop the base skill of the breathing strategy before you then start to get real tricky with positions and hip shifts and left reaches, right reaches, overhead reaches, IRs, ERs and all of that sort of stuff. Like most of the benefit is just gonna get them they're just gonna get from just learning to pump their ribcage, which can be picked up in any position really. At least that's my bias with breathing drills. Like I don't the more yeah, I I don't view them as anything special anymore. They're a sensory drill, the bias is ribcade motion. you can teach a lot of shit within absolutely, but yeah, they're not unique in any real way. Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. I I think the the way I like to think about it or like I like to explain it to people who 'cause nowadays you have this thing where they're like, breathing drills they're really that useful, just do the work. The main work is what matters so much more. And the drills don't matter as much. Like the drills are not the the cr like they're not the chunk of your training. They're just made to make you feel the right things and feel Tapas: Mm. Kaushal Sumedh: things in the right way so you can move better and you can execute your training program better. So the way I like to think of it is like You know, when people say like th there's scientific evidence that foam rolling is useless, but then there's also enough evidence to show that the like before you use it, there's a slight slight mobility increase when you use it before training. And you can also use it to expand, you know, your ribcage for better bench positioning. Some people get that you know, that sensory this thing. And there's also that thing where if you feel like it helps you, it's gonna help you out, right? Some people have that thing where they're like, I have to do this particular thing and that helps me out. So I just tell people like even if you don't believe in the tools, just do them right and actually give it a try. Like I I have I I have seen a lot of utility in them where I'm like, if you do this and you do it well, you're gonna see things move better. You're gonna feel a lot better and you're gonna feel the right things in the right place. And then they're like, you know, a lot of people don't take it too seriously, is what I mean. So to you know, so I have to keep chasing them and be like, Can you send me the video of what you've actually done? Because I wanna see because cause their usual response is like, Yeah, I did what you said and I had no difference. I I it made no sense to me. And I'm like, Can you show me what you did? And they're like, Yeah, I didn't take a video because I didn't think it was important, right? 'Cause so what I'm trying to say is like those things are there in the program for a reason. Like we we wanna make you feel things better so that then you can execute your S V Ds or whatever that matters to you more, right? So Jamie Smith: Hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, just don't take that as like a these are just drills. They're just low level drills because that's what people call them, right? Like it's just yeah, they Tapas: They do have value to them. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: do have value to them. Don't just write them off because you don't understand them or things like that. Jamie Smith: Yeah, they can have a huge impact. They absolutely can. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, 'cause look 'cause the way you buy into something also matters though, like from a psychological standpoint, because if you just don't want to do it, cause cause when you're like, yeah, I just don't think this thing works at all, then you're not going to execute it to the best of your ability and you're not going to see any kind of benefit. Cause I've seen people where like, I'll teach them a queue or like I'll teach them to set up a certain way and they'll be like, Yeah, I just don't see how this works. I mean, if you don't even wanna give it like when you go in with that with that kind of a mentality, right? You're just not gonna put in your f your your your your best foot forward is what I mean. Right? 'Cause Jamie Smith: Hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: you're like, yeah, I just in in your mind you're already convinced that this is not very useful. jay: And and and and Jamie Smith: Yeah, you d the the buy-in the the the buy-in comes from an understanding of the value of it towards their goal. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: So if that if they're not aware of the value of it, it's just Yeah. And it it's it's one of those things, like most things down the sensory end, again, within the framework, within the model, the sensory end is to develop a feeling. Tapas: Yeah. Jamie Smith: It is to develop the feeling to feed the nervous system o of the change in position, the change in expression or whatever Kaushal Sumedh: Yes. Jamie Smith: needs to be. So if the feeling is never developed. It is n there is no point doing the drill. So that the perfect example there, if the client doesn't buy in, you are waste to me anything at the sensory end. You could you could play with w input whichever sensory drill, whichever method you've learned, whatever. But anything down that of the end of the spectrum is to develop a feeling. And if the client doesn't buy in, they don't execute it in the the way that we want to to pick up the feeling. It's it's gonna be again, nothing's gonna change because the input, the sensory input never actually changed. And we're back to the back to the start of the model. Tapas: Try yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, exactly. We're we're back to square square one again. Jamie Smith: We're back to we're back to changing the change the input. Hopefully we're starting to see how it works, fellas. jay: I know ca because one Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, jay: I would say that like the the whole visualization Tapas: Nah it's fine, it's fine. jay: of the continuum, right, Jamie? The whole thing about the continuum, like how you said that that is how you like to visualize information, that was extremely helpful to someone like me as Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: well. Because you can see that it's like a slider, right? You can slide the emphasis here and there back and forth. So it becomes very helpful for people in that in that kind of a situation. I think a lot of us are like visual creatures, so something visual kind of helps Tapas: Yeah. jay: us even understand that. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah yeah, 'cause most people wouldn't understand unless they've done it themselves to some degree. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Alrighty, 10 week recap on one slide. This is my whole mentorship. So Tapas: Ha ha ha. Jamie Smith: we're we're in it. so these two, these two triangles here is representative of top down and bottoms up constraints in a system. So top down are rigid rule sets. You can't really they're they're just structures that are in there. Classic examples of them. For me, the big rock focus of powerlifting technique is a top down constraint. an example of a big rock Expression is balance in a squat. Everyone needs it. You you can't get away from it. It everyone needs it. another one would be tension in the setup for a bench press. Everyone needs it. Everyone has a different variation of it, but everyone needs it. Like they're they're the big rock sort of focus. Bracing for squatting and deadlifting. Big rock. Everyone focuses on it. goals, time frames, injuries are all constraints we have to work within. But current beliefs and lived experiences, especially at the client level, is a is a top-down constraint. We can modify it over time, but you have to play within it at the start. the blue triangle is your bottoms up constraints, which is ultimately your small rock decision making for technique, hand placement, foot, foot width, foot stance, like the smaller things that are very individualized that you tweak and fuck around with. the BPS model is a bottoms up sort of understanding. Tapas: Hmm. Jamie Smith: the organism is adaptable and moldable over time. the environment is adaptable and mold moldable over time. Within within like a constraints based model, I view the environment as the relationship with you as the coach. that is a bottoms up constraint to to work within a bottom up processing, a bottoms up flavor, because you can modify and change your strategy very quickly, very easily, be reactive to it. But all of these become the the inputs into the system. They're processed at the nervous system level and the outputs start to express. Tension tension is an output. So blaming tension for anything is the wrong answer. Change position, change setup, and you'll change that output. jay: Exactly. Jamie Smith: Strength is also an output. I I I have a qualm with the rehab space. I I'll I'll die on this hill that it doesn't matter how much research goes into which particular muscle is weak or strong, causing either an injury, a risk of an injury, or the recovery of an injury. I think the only place in which it there's a A strong supporting sort of structure around it would be post surgery. but but strength is an output. It's the output of strength is highly moldable. So the the force expression of a muscle, the force expression of a system is highly moldable based off the inputs to the point where you can make somebody 20% stronger just by changing one particular input. You put them on a competition platform for the first time. They're not 10% stronger than they were their entire, it's the environment that changed the strength out. Strength is an output of the system. So trying to blame strength, whether there's too much of it or too little of it within the system somewhere. Hip flexor is too tight for glute, glute is too weak, fucking whatever. Like that's the classic one. We're looking at this problem backwards. Skill is an output, it's developed over time based off the inputs. Confidence is an output. so confidence in lifting, confidence in understanding, confidence in Their ability to express and execute the plan all shapes those outputs. Self-efficacy, belief in themselves, belief in the process, belief in the plan, belief in their ability to modify and manage changes when needed. they're all outputs. Ultimately, they're the ones that we're trying to build and mod modify and and and change. But the only way we can change that is you gotta go back and be better aware Have better awareness of your top down constraints or better understanding and reactivity to your bottoms up sort of processing strategies in the coaching process. So that's the crux of it. jay: No. 'Cause 'cause I I I would say I we had I think your model was the slide that when I was in the mentorship was a a smaller version of this, but like it it took me about like four to five weeks throughout going through to kind of understand this. But this is probably one of the most important things that I ever saw. Like the output aspect, right? You can't force outputs. I i ev everything kind of Jamie Smith: Nope. They emerge. jay: comes into yeah, right? The i exactly the whole thing when we were talking about how you were talking in programming from an emerging strategies approach, like why they kind of visualized it like that, the whole whole It's just that I think when we don't have an understanding of what to actually input, it's when you kind of start to break people. Because a lot of times I'd see like cultural lives, I tuppas, we've all seen like guys try to force load their athletes. You'll kind of see things where like they won't kind of have a certain outcome on a certain date. Right. So w w what I I would just kind of think about it is that i it it's kind of important for folks to understand this, the especially in the case of tension, Jamie. Like i i i if you guys are okay with that, I would wanna kind of talk about that bone first muscle first lens kind of when we kind of talk about it because like you mentioned it's a big thing even in the even where you are you're from, but in India it's it's completely unheard of for anyone to kind of look at Tapas: Yeah. jay: from a like It it's it's it's something that is very limiting in terms of like you you can't refer people out to a physio, right? You can't like even like because th the thing is bed rest or a certain stabilizer muscle doesn't work, right? Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, we can we kind of talk about this also in the last one, because I I'm Tapas: Hm. Kaushal Sumedh: telling you, it's so bad here. Like the worst case scenario that I've heard of is that a guy had pain, and the first thing that the coach told him was to start taking Decca. And I yeah, yeah. The guy came to me and he was like, I have these Tapas: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: problems, and I was like, Yeah, we can fix that. And he was like, My old coach told me that I should just take Decca and I like, What the fuck are you talking about? That that is insane to me. Like the first line of defense is steroids. That's crazy. Yeah? Jamie Smith: That is crazy. Kaushal Sumedh: But but but you see cases like this quite a lot. It's it's jay: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: like yeah I I I I can go on like for hours about how many cases I've seen the last like how many 10 years now? Eight to ten years now. I've seen like so many cases of like just kids, kids as young as 15, 16 years old just being told that the like you just need to take steroids. That's it. You have this problem, take steroids. jay: And I I just Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: You have that problem, take steroids. yeah, you're you're benching like 60 kgs, take steroids. That's that's insane to me. Jamie Smith: Yeah, that is insane. jay: And and and I th and I and and I will say this thing. I think this is where having a model is very important because this is just something I picked from Jamie's mentorship again. It's not the fact that everyone's gonna have a perfect coaching outcome. All of us are gonna get outcomes Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: we do not want. Like I'm sure Jamie's gotten outcomes he doesn't want, Kausha's gotten, Tapas has got them. But I think having a system is extremely valuable in terms of how to change the inputs. What inputs do you want to kind of change? Right? That will result in a separate, like a different output that we want. Like ten Like a lot of powerlifters that come to us are largely like stiff, broken, and they can't get into even position, right? And all of them are kind of talked about: well, this muscle is weak, they asked me to strengthen my rotator cuff there. This deep hip stabilizer doesn't work. 50. I had a guide got programmed, like he squats around like 230 kilos, and he's been given like banded clamshells with like these 3 kg pants. Jamie Smith: He's gl he's got he's got weak glutes, man. jay: Yeah, exactly exactly. That was the that was the whole the psyops there. It was always the glutes. Jamie Smith: Like you can s squat squat two and a half times body weight, but your glutes are somehow jay: Yeah. Jamie Smith: weak. What are we talking about? Like what what are we talking about? jay: And and and this is where like whenever someone asks me where I started learning, you have a YouTube video, I think it's twenty-eight minutes long, that goes about like muscle first and bone first lens, it's on your YouTube channel. I would highly recommend every single person listening to the podcast to go and give that a listen because how you will think will be extremely different before and after that video. Jimmy, if you if you could give people like a spiel in terms of how that thing works, right? Why do we look at it like that? Jamie Smith: Yeah, so I I think the so I went through university, sports science. I was already learning a lot of my ideas, not not to the level that I have them now, but I was already like critically thinking about train I started training like fourteen, fifteen and and really enjoyed it from the start. I was reading Eric Cressy blogs back then. so like was at school reading Eric Cressy blogs, reading Mike Boyle blogs, reading Mike Boyle. sorry, Mike Boyle, Mike Robertson, Joe DeFranco, like those were my initial influences. And then a local coach, Christian Woodford. before Instagram was even out, he just had a Facebook page and I was reading his shit on Facebook. Like they were like my initial influences when I was like 15 through to maybe like 18 or 19. so I was already keen on learning this stuff, and then I went to uni and and the way that they teach. movement biomechanics at uni is through the sarcomere. So the first thing that you learn is this is what a sarcomere is, actinomycin, and it contracts to create tension. And and straight away there's the first cloudy mess is that tension is a contraction. And then people people fall in this banner of or fall in this understanding of well There's a concentric contraction and then there's an eccentric contraction. And the the word contraction means to shorten. So there's a there's a shortening shorten and there's a lengthening shorten. And yeah, obviously Kaushal Sumedh: Length thing short. Yeah. Jamie Smith: once you understand what's going on with an eccentric contraction, you you know that this thing is decelerating the eccentric, the lengthening phase. Like that's what the actinomyosin are doing. But I don't even think people get past that first layer of of learning it through through the muscle lens. So you you end up with contraction is this big part of tension, which it is, but then it completely disregards what is called passive tension. So you you go one step out and you end up in, well, there's these contraction ideas, but then there's this other tension that's not a contraction, and then they go a layer further, which is, well, the bone is getting pulled by the muscle. So you've got this muscle that is creating and and and and kind of fronting. or or or preceding bone movement. So you've got muscles contracting, producing tension to move bones. Absolutely. It is true for sure. But when you flip it on its head and you say, well, what else can move the bones? Then all of a sudden we start to get into the world which is there are so many forces that are acting on the on the skeleton. So many all the time. Gravity is the first one. So the first task that the muscular system is reacting to is balance, gravity management. That is the underlying one. You start it as soon as you gain consciousness in the morning. You wake up, you roll out of bed, you've already got the first task that's influencing the system, which is I don't want to fall over. You're not thinking about it, but your system underneath is constantly updating its position in space, proprioception, reactive tension, all of this stuff is happening so that you don't fall over. And then from that understanding, we we get we we begin to fall into that, so muscle tension is actually a reaction to something. So the first base reaction that it is is balance. It's center of mass, gravity management, base of support management, horizontal eye line management, vestibular system, like all of that sort of stuff precedes muscle tension coming into the system. And the muscle tension responds to that. And then and then you lay a tar additional tasks, squatting, benching, whatever it is, on top of that system. So the whole the whole muscular system is constantly just reacting to what is it what is placed in front of it. It's it's it's never, not that it's never, but it's it's very rarely do we need to go back through the muscle first lens, which is you blame a muscle, you focus on one particular muscle. You're better off what I call zooming out, which is looking at the macro view of position, space, balance. base of support, bracing, principles, principles, principles. Look at all that stuff first. And then if you still have a localized muscle problem, which you probably won't anymore, all right, maybe we need to go and do something at the muscular level. Yeah. I don't know if I did it as eloquently as I just did on the in the in the YouTube video, but that's that's the that's the crux of it. I think I think human movement is taught backwards. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: And that's where the idea of muscle first thinking You you start at the muscle level and go out versus bone first, skeleton Tapas: Born first. Jamie Smith: systemic first. That's the whole idea with bone first, muscle first. what I would say, where the muscle first lens makes the most sense, hypertrophy, absolutely. Like if if if if we're not just talking about force output, strength output, global skill expression, if we are trying to specifically hit one muscle, one subgroup of a muscle, one area of the muscle, you need to understand its line of pull, you need to understand its its force, its length tension relationship, you need to understand all of that sort of stuff so that we can actually hit that one particular thing. So it makes a lot of sense there. Doesn't mean that the bone first doesn't make sense in hypertrophy. It definitely does. but That's where it may that's where it's got its strongest case, I think. And then also early stage rehab when you where you either need to direct load particularly somewhere or take it away from a very particular thing. Tendinopathy is the is the easiest example there. Like if you want to direct load into a certain area of the calf, just look at the calf structure and then just align the forces to it and you'll you'll get the you'll get the load exactly where you want it. But yeah, for the most part, ninety percent of your problem solving should be bone first, skeleton first, zoom out, Tapas: Born first, yeah. Jamie Smith: observe the skeleton, observe mass. That's that's gonna clean up almost everything that that most coaches need to face. There are particular times though when really going and and going back the other way makes sense though. I think it's fundamentally taught wrong. jay: I 'cause I 'cause I I would say like the thing is whatever we do in the physical world, whatever we are, like be Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: it on a field, be it on the platform, anything that is a physical endeavor, it is all against gravity. But if you kinda think about like any sport you're playing, there's an element of balance that we kind of create that is a requirement there. We just managing that. I think this is where when Jamie talks about I think in that video you talk about a bit about the axial and appendicular skeleton, right? Why we kind of want to see that. 'cause we would always try and link it back to like a powerlifting perspective, 'cause we have a lot of guys who are powerlifters at listen. Into this podcast. and the idea is that for for me, the thing is like you kind of give SPD has certain requirements, you kind of only keep to those requirements, your body kind of adapts in terms of that positioning over time, over time, and you start building certain limitations in terms of your movement competency, and things just start to kind of get like worn and torn out, so you want some amount of movement variability. Like Jamie, you like Jamie's also like work with world-class powerlifters as well. So, like when you work with powerlifters, Jamie. What were the biggest like hurdles you'd see when someone comes in in terms of a movement competency standpoint, even at the highest level? Jamie Smith: Yeah, so I think I think one of the outcomes, it's not a good outcome, but it's just one of the outcomes of powerlifting training is jay: Outcomes, yeah. Yep. Jamie Smith: it it's just stiffness. The the the system just becomes stiff. Like it it just is, like high force, repeated movements. Mostly everything is in mid range, almost all the time. So it's just high active active tension. When I say active like that, it's at it's active tension. It is true muscular tension. Like True, just squeeze the fuck out of positions. The movements are very repetitive. The axial Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: position is very repetitive as well. Like the axial skeleton kind of just gets forced into the same position for all three lifts. There's some variance of it at an individual level, but for the most part, it is an extension-based, extension-driven sport at the axial, at the axial skeleton. So you kind of just force the skeleton constantly into the same position and then just learn to generate as much active tension in that position as possible. So it's an outcome of powerlifting training is just stiffness. It just is. especially at the higher levels, especially at the larger weight classes. like they're just stiff people. so a lot of the to me, a lot of the where I found the most value, and I think ultimately what ended up building some of my notoriety or whatever you want to call it, like people being like, that guy's worth listening to. was I started to I started to apply specifically bracing based ideas, which is shifting back axial skeleton, like pulling skeleton back. I used to use different narratives around zone of opposition, a lot of PRI influence narratives around that. I don't use those terms anymore to describe it. But like the shifted back rib cage position. Like my first video on YouTube, my second video sorry, I think it was my second video I ever posted. This is the Strength Culture YouTube channel. This is like a 10-year-old video. Is how to brace for for squatting. And I I'm on a whiteboard and I draw the ribcage and I draw the diaphragm. I'm drawing the direction of the pull and what needs to happen and where you need the ribcage, where you need the pelvis. And like this was like 10, 11 years ago. I was that got like a hundred thousand views or something. I don't know what it's like, but like those ideas 10 years ago were not in the strength world. and I just started talking, I'm autistic for anatomy. I like these ideas, and I just started talking about it, but ultimately like Just as simple as that is, getting people to brace better, which is shift back axioskeleton, get away from the big extension bias. Doesn't mean that we don't need extension, don't want it. It it should Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: present in certain ways, absolutely. And at different levels, there you might require extension to be an elite powerlifter. But for the most part, getting people the ability just to pull themselves backwards in space, I think is really helpful. And then that that just evolved over time to to learning more about these shifted back strategies, reaching strategies, reaching patterns, a lot of a lot of pelvic orientational strategies, foot pressure orientational things. but for the most part, if I was to like if I to s if I were to sum up what I think my biggest value at like the higher levels of powerlifters was to give people an understanding of their axial skeleton in space and how to how to use a different strategy when needed. That's all it really was is just give them different options to load and feel better and it helps bracing, it helps shoulder mobility, which then in terms gives you better access to accessory lifts. You can train different tissues better. Like a lot of that sort of stuff was ultimately what I I think it was my biggest value piece to to higher level powerlifting coaching. Cause prior to prior to that time in the industry. Not saying that I've spearheaded it, but I think I was one of the first people that spoke about it specific to powerlifting. Bef before that, it was all the equipped queuing, which still is around. Things like using lats in the bench press. Like that was still around Kaushal Sumedh: Yep. Yeah. Jamie Smith: back then. This is 2016. Like raw powerlifting was only really like three or four years old. Like, like I don't even know when the first IPF Nationals was. When the hell was that? First IPF world's first year. When was that? Vi Kaushal Sumedh: Like twenty twelve or something? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: I said 2009? 2012. Yeah, exactly. So so like raw powerlifting, wasn't it? This was John Paul Khaki era. yeah, like I I met John Paul, like he was like the it was like the second year, 2013 was like his second year of raw now. He went to South Africa. He went to South Africa Kaushal Sumedh: Like he he was sixty six junior world champion. Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: and he and he won the gold medal in deadlift with a 260 kilo deadlift. Now that's like a 380 kilo deadlift, whatever it is. Like it it's it's crazy. But like I started making content for strength culture. You can go back and look at what it was. It's all the same principles and ideas. I communicate them differently now, absolutely. I think I was spouting narratives out my ass back then, but for the most part, the base principles are they're all they're all there. so yeah, I don't even know what the first question was here, but yeah, that that was yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, i it's just that you're a lot more refined right now from the ideas that you had back then. 'Cause as you gain Jamie Smith: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: more experience, you kinda just understand like how to implement and understand and put these things into practical usage a little a little better than you used to back then. 'Cause 'cause the whole sorry, go on. Yeah. Jamie Smith: Yeah, the shift the shift for me, the shift for me on that was was learning about the BPS model, which was through Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: bar barbell medicine. I don't know if you boys know those guys. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tapas: Okay. jay: Yep, yep. Jamie Smith: So barbell medicines and a and and a guy called Dr. Quinn Henock. Do you know that name? Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. jay: Yep. Yep. Yep. Jamie Smith: So Dr. Quinn Henock was Chad Wesley Smith's physical therapist. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yep. Jamie Smith: I I want to say 2017, 2018. I had just done some PRI courses. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, from Juggernaut Training Systems. Jamie Smith: Yeah, I had Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: just done some PRI courses. I came back from Cressy. I'd learn all this stuff. I spent 10 days with Roberts and and Hartman at iFast as well. I was like deep in the the initial stage of PRI understanding. and then Quinn was rehabbing Chad Wesley Smith's back with a 9090 hip lift. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yep. Jamie Smith: And I was like, this guy, this guy's been exposed to the same ideas I have. And I used to follow him. And then he started popping up with BPS model around like 2017, 2018. And then barbell medicine started coming in. And I read a couple of papers on it. And I was like, wow, biomechanics doesn't mean anything. What am I talking about? All this bio and actually stopped making content there for about 18 months because I was so in my head of being like, wow, I Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: I put so much value in biomechanics for pain. I I remember writing a blog about pain and biomechanics that would, if I went back now, I'd cringe at it. But the BPS, when that flavor started coming in, I was like, wow, I need to rethink these ideas. And now I view it, I think, a lot more. I like to think a lot more with with more complexity to when biomechanics really matter. Obviously, performance, Tapas: More nuance, yeah. Jamie Smith: absolutely, 100%. Biomechanics matter heaps, high Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: forces, high speeds, absolutely. Biomechanics are vitally important for for expression and performance and all that sort of stuff. But outside of that world, it kind of loses its value, not not entirely, but it it kind of gets very muddy very quickly in just how much emphasis to put on biomechanics. Beep. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. I think the key point here is that you cringe now looking back, 'cause that shows that you've grown. That that's like Jamie Smith: Yeah. Hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: an important phase to have. Like everybody should have that. When you look back, you're like, Yeah, what what what the fuck was I doing like a couple of years ago? Even if you were Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: on the right track, you weren't so bad, right? But you were still like, Yeah, I just don't know. Like I would not do that again. Like the way I think is just so much better now. Jamie Smith: yeah, ultimately, and this is a big thing that I have in my mentorship is like the objective drill, like if we activations, I fucking hate the term. I think it's stupid. It's a Kaushal Sumedh: Mm. Jamie Smith: muscle, it's a muscle first lens that has turned into an activity. So it's you blame a muscle, you blame something being inactive, you pay no attention to bone position, and then you just go and hammer a muscle and just get as much tone and fatigue into it. That is what an activation is. But in my framework, a sensory drill is feeling the right thing. And in order to feel the right thing, I need to go and find load, send load in there, maybe build a little bit of fatigue so the client can feel it. It ultimately to somebody who who couldn't hear what was going on, it would look almost identical. It would be I'm putting them in a particular position, I'm gonna move their arm here, I'm gonna fucking fire up this area of their back, their lat, their fucking low trap, their tricep, whatever it needs, whatever it is I'm trying to build the sensory input. Somebody that has zero awareness of what what's being said, they'll be like, that's that's the same as that other drill. But it's like the communication is ultimately what actually matters. And then this is another idea that I that I have, which is ultimately the communication is the only thing that matters because it's the only thing that people will remember. They won't remember the drill Tapas: Yeah. Jamie Smith: they gave you, but they'll remember the little story that you wrapped it in, that you had weak glutes. Yeah, Kaushal Sumedh: Mm mm. Jamie Smith: rather than a better story, which is I'm going to teach you a new way to load, see how it feels. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: yep. Jamie Smith: Which is basically all I tell people now is like, I'm just gonna teach you a different way and just tell me if it feels better. Like that's all it that's all that's all the narrative Kaushal Sumedh: Also I also think it's Jamie Smith: needs to be. Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, I also think it's like hugely driven by the whole hook culture of Instagram. Like you know, you Jamie Smith: A hundred percent. Tapas: Hm. jay: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, you can say, the secret to your this thing is like this, and then people will pay attention because they're like you've hooked them onto the thing, right? So th yeah, you so you sold them. Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: Yeah, you sold You sold the cure. Kaushal Sumedh: You've got them hook, line, and syncer because you've just thrown a hook there and they're like, yeah, this this is the one thing that's been missing. 'Cause if you see a lot, like especially nowadays, like I keep sending this to Jay every single time. Cause a lot of the science-based jay: my god, I know. Kaushal Sumedh: lifting hypertrophy community is just common sense. A lot of it is just common sense. Like i i they just keep going back in circles, like they're like eccentrics don't matter. And then one of the figureheads will like, yeah, eccentrics don't matter. But then if you pause your reps a little bit, you'd get more control and that means more this thing and that means more localized tissue being used. You know, you're controlling where that stimulus is being provided on the muscle. So it's so like for example, if you're doing hack squats, right? Instead of just going down and coming up and bouncing out of the bottom, if you're just controlling yourself into the bottom, you'll just get a little bit more quad stimulus. That has been there around for like decades. It's not Jamie Smith: Then Kaushal Sumedh: new. This isn't new. But then you see it's like the whole thing just keeps going around this circle. Cause like every once few years you see, like kids will be like, my my favorite influencer told me like this is bullshit. And then the same guy a couple of months later will post, like, the opposite also matters, right? Because nothing in I in like Like an individual doesn't matter. Like it's not just one single point. Everything matters to some degree. When people say like eccentrics don't matter, they're not talking about like eccentrics don't matter at all. From a hypertrophy point of view, maybe, sure. Like you're looking for mechanical tension, but then rep control, standardization of rep, these things matter, right? So you don't you don't you don't just want to keep bouncing out of the bottom. So so th Jamie Smith: percent. Kaushal Sumedh: like the other day I was seeing this reel, and the guy was just like, Well, you don't want like this doesn't matter, but then the control really matters and then everybody in the comment section was like, my god, that's so brilliant and I was like, What the fuck are you guys talking about? This thing's been there for like thirty years. Jamie Smith: Well, I I I'd I'd take jay: It's just Jamie Smith: it a step further and and I'd say that that none of our ideas have actually evolved. I Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. jay: Yeah, yep. Kaushal Sumedh: I I was gonna say the same thing, that the fitness just just keeps going like in circles. Like you just have Tapas: They keep going in circles, right? Yeah. jay: Circles. Jamie Smith: Yeah, like Kaushal Sumedh: like the Jamie Smith: there's there's little layers of depth of understanding, but I Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: I I actually don't even think we have any more like big jumps to make. Like I th I think it's Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, e even if we talk about something as simple as bracing, right? The idea behind bracing was always to get torso rigidity and stability, right? Like in the squat, for example. But like we've like as you said, we've made like small adjustments and understandings in things a little on a little deeper level. And then we brought the whole like ribcage pelvis a little bit more stack positioning, right? Earlier it just used to be expand everything. Right? Jamie Smith: But I think that's it. I think that's from equipped powerlifting. I think a lot of the the Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah yeah yeah. jay: Yeah. Jamie Smith: yeah, I I think a lot of the a lot of the new ideas in powerlifting world are actually just the development of raw lifting. Yeah, you Kaushal Sumedh: Rop out here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: get people out of the suit and it's actually a new task that needs a slightly different strategy. And it looks like a new strategy, but it's really not. It's just we don't have this stupid suit that we're constantly trying to fight anymore. yeah, so it's it Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean the same thing with bench like people keep talking about like yeah, they Jamie Smith: Yeah. The ribs down Yeah. jay: Yeah. Tucking your elbows. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: keep talking about tucking the elbows like squeeze the lats, but then what you're looking for Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: is just scapular depression, right? So you you're you're like scapular depression, humor hu humeral internal rotation. So that that's what you're looking for. But then like the the whole idea is that you want to feel you want it to feel tight against the the suit earlier. And now because you just don't have the suit, you just kinda cue similar similar concepts in a little different way. Tapas: Is this repackaged? Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. I mean it's not just like it's it's a little better than what we used to have. But it it doesn't like yeah, it doesn't necessarily change the whole thing. Yeah, Jamie Smith: Not a hundred percent. Yeah, no. It's definitely more rounded, yeah. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: it doesn't change the whole thing. The baseline of the whole thing is similar. Like the idea behind it is still similar. But then like the way we implement it has you know, it's gotten better. Jamie Smith: Yeah. A hundred percent. jay: And and I I just I I just wanna kinda like throw something up here in terms of the BPS model and pain in terms of how I I love Jamie your take on this. Like we talk about narratives in the fitness space. Like narratives are easy to sell, but they're also e very difficult to shake off once you have Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: like a belief in one of them. when I look at like pain, for example, right? We talk about the whole BPS model of pain, like biopsychosocial model of pain. The one thing I want to ask Jamie, have you ever come across because I have had coaches kind of share this same view that some humans, like when you kind of meet them, they tie their identity towards pain. Right? Like that it's it's their whole Jamie Smith: Yeah, hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: like persona is pain, right? And I've kind of of when I deal with in-person clients, I kind of kind of notice the fact that some of them they're even if they get better, right, there is an inherent narrative in them that my identity is attached to pain. Like I had a guy with a wings capula kind of thing. Like Jamie Yokos, the ribcage shifting it back, getting a little bit of reach, the whole nine yards. He was fine in three weeks time. Like about three weeks time things were starting to look really good. But even to this day, the narrative he has about himself is the pain attached to that. And when I ask him, are you still in pain? Because he's pressing, he's overhead pressing, benching the whole nine yards. Like, how have you seen that, have you experienced that? And if you do, if you've dealt with a client with that kind of a narrative, Tapas: Yeah. jay: have you ever kind of tried to actively get them out of it? Jamie Smith: Yeah, a hundred percent. so I have a I have another framework, fellas. it's on another continuum. It's it's just two opposite ends of the spectrum. and this fits within narrative discussion, but ultimately what we're do what we're discussing here is the when at what at what points in time does becoming a movement precisionist make sense. So when I say prof precisionist You focus in on biomechanics, you focus in, and it becomes kind of like the key thing that you're looking to develop and understand, versus a a movement optimist. So are we trying to become a precisionist? It's the only thing I'm focusing on. I'm zooming in. I view it as a zoom in strategy. It's zoom in, it's highlight, focus, bring attention to, potentially narratize. You might have to narrowtize it, versus zooming out, which is general. Just good training and all of those sort of things. So, an example of when to zoom in, high levels of performance. You do need to develop technique. Like you have to, you have to go down that route. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: You can't just self-or most people can't just self-organize themselves into the most efficient pattern. They need some constraints, they need some strategies, they need some input change so that they can get a more efficient, you need to coach them to better positions. When is a good time to be a movement optimist, i.e., zoom out. Technique doesn't really matter. What really matters is load progression, just feeling good, feeling confident, consistency, and all of that. A narrative-filled individual, regardless of how they got the narratives, whether they're in pain, whether they've just consumed way too much social media content and they've fucking think, I got a bunion here, I got this going here, did-da-da-and-they to you and they literally just like, and you're like, fuck, what's going on? Or you ask Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: them a question like. Perfect back to the start. Client-led exploration for squatting. You say, what what are the what do you think about before you get under the bar? And it's like a three-minute ordeal. They're like, well, I've got to do this, I've got to do this. Like ultimately that all that technical jargon is just a narrative that they've got, that it has to be precise. It has to be anybody with a narrative-filled internal dialogue needs to be zoomed out. You can't be the next person to give them a new narrative to attach to. So even like the wing scapula, like I would have the Done exactly the same thing. But from the onset, it's kind of just again, like my favorite line is I'm just going to teach you different ways to load. Let me know if it feels better. I wouldn't even be talking about his wing scapula. I wouldn't even be checking in with it. As long as jay: Yep. Yep. Jamie Smith: he doesn't, as long as he doesn't say it's painful to me, that's fine. Like I wouldn't be focusing on it. I would I'll just be like, hey man, this is a good reach. It's great for your dealt development. It's great for fucking blah, blah, blah. Like just give him a whole bunch of just general so that Kaushal Sumedh: Hm, mm, mm. Jamie Smith: you don't keep bringing awareness to it. Cause a classic one, and and this happens a lot with younger coaches and I'm definitely hand up accountability. I used to be one of these people. Let's just say somebody hurts their back. You're doing deadlifts with them, they hurt their back. And it's like fuck. And you leave the session, you're like, man, I fucking that was fucked. Like I should have stopped them. You knew that you didn't you, you as the coach weren't confident that were they should have had that last rep. They went for it. They hurt themselves. You check in with them the next day. How's your back? it's a bit sensitive. They skip a session. For like a month, every time you see him, how's the back? You do a set of squats. How's your back? How's your back? How's your back? How's your back? You do a is your back painful? You check in with them and and you just like all of a sudden you're just like a fucking dog at their back and you're asking them all the time. You just bring in more awareness to it. Like you kind of create the problem yourself. again, client led. Maybe obviously check in with people and all of that sort of stuff. But at some point you've got to kind of like move back and be like, they're gonna tell me if something's not right anymore. And like, yeah. So I don't know, that's that's kinda how I think it. Do I need a pr be a precisionist here or do I need to be more of an optimist? Kaushal Sumedh: Mm mm. Jamie Smith: Yeah. jay: And and I and I I I did want to kind of mention this because the the whole thing about narratives during your mentorship, right? Sometimes the narrative sometimes gets established that a person has a problem. When in reality it's just they don't know how to kind of use a different movement option. Like for example, Tupper Scousel, we've all seen guys when you ask them to reach for a barbell, right? They do not you they they kind of have like this proximal thing of where they'll just flex into the bar, like we're on a deadlift, they'll just kind of curve there. They just don't know how to like reach. They just don't know how to get the scabs to come around the ribcage. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: Right. and it's most of the time, I think all of us have seen this, like it it's most of the time it isn't like this unsolvable problem. It's just they don't know how to. All right. So like Jamie, like when when when someone does come and say, like, like as a young coach, if someone's listening to this, like the whole thing about movement creating a narrative of pain versus like creating better movement options, how important is it to kind of distinguish between that? Jamie Smith: I think I I I think most w pain or no pain, I think giving people more opportunities or more more variance in their ability to tolerate loads, I think is is like the the truth of good load management. So that they don't use the same strategy all the time. and in in sec in secondary to that, they're not using the same movement patterns all the time. So, like you teach them different ways to load their hips. Like it it's not it can't just all be sagittal plane, bilateral. Like maybe you need some single leg stuff, maybe you need some frontal plane bias stuff, some rotation bias stuff. Like you just more variance in their ability to tolerate loan is is generally going to just help most people just feel better in general. It's not going to be the be all and end all for pain, but teaching people new ways to load is definitely a strategy to modify pain, to change perception, build confidence. Let's just say somebody has a a traditional painful arc of their shoulder, like 90 degrees. Narrative, it's impinged. That's that's just so far off the truth. It's not funny, but like giving them an ability to maybe raise their arms in front of them so that it doesn't piss them off. And all of a sudden they can it can dismantle this narrative of I can't get my arms overhead. Now it's well, I can get my arms overhead, but this one here is still a little bit painful. But I have other options. I have other strategies that are available to me and you can start to break down some of those walls around like, I'll never get my arms up overhead anymore. How am I gonna dry my hair, put my seatbelt on or any of that sort of stuff? It's like I'm gonna teach you some new ways, let that one calm down a little bit, and then over time we'll reintroduce some of that, we'll load it and we'll progress it at a rate that you're tolerable and and your confidence will kind of guide us and over time we'll we'll we'll build capacity back up. But like I think if you could if I could For young coaches to like sum it up, teaching people different ways to load is really good. And the narrative doesn't need to be any further than that. You don't need to say, I'm teaching you a new way to load because this has never been loaded. No, I'm just gonna teach you a new way to load. I'm not gonna teach you a new way to load because X is weak. No, I'm just gonna teach you a new way to load. That's all it needs to be. That's enough that it that's as deep as it needs to be. Like you don't have to then add the second narrative that becomes the no SIBO. So I'm just going to teach you things. jay: Yeah. Jamie Smith: Tell me how they feel. Do they feel better, same or worse? let's do more of the things that feel better. Awesome. Welcome to technique development, welcome to skill development, welcome to progressive loading, welcome to strength training. Like we just do more of the things that feel better over time and you start enjoying it, you start seeing progress. Like teaching people different ways to load, I think is is what I would say to clients or young coaches. No. jay: I didn't Yeah, I I I do I do want to kinda ask something here again, is that we've we've kind of recently seen in powerlifting, especially like how people look at accessories. One camp is just looking at from pure optimizing for hypertrophy. Like the goal is you need maximum stability, you need maximum this and nothing else. Jamie, when I did your mentorship, the whole thing about like feed up pressing and just hook line pressing, like like the whole thing about learning to reach, because I have found this cultural probably ten years of experience in the Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: field, most guys can't even reach. Right, like if you if you ask like a power lifter because they're so used to it, like I kind of use a lens of said principle, right? Specific adaptation of imposed demands. Like of all you do is SPD, your system will kind of almost like find preference in terms of that, and then you just consistently use that movement strategy. So when you kind of like Jamie, how important is it to keep an athlete healthy? If I correct me if I'm wrong, you worked with guys like Will Cozier at a point in time, and and you those are guys that handle a ton of weight, right? And and my my my question. For you is that when you kind of have people like this, how important is it to have an understanding of axe like just human anatomy, like the axial skeleton andpendicular skeletal interaction in terms of applying for accessory programming to keep the athlete healthy? Jamie Smith: I th I I think it's very helpful, but for somebody like Will, like Will is absolutely the most elite person I ever coached. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: but Again, like one of the outcomes of powerlifting is that stiffness thing. It is actually a positive thing for the performance end of the spectrum of powerlifting. Like you don't want huge amounts of degrees of freedom because it's more range that you need to control. It's more variance that potentially could come into the technique when when when things get to those high, high levels. So In terms of keeping people healthy, again, I think it is important to teach people different ways to load. And if there is a glaring weakness of awareness of position, aware not weakness of a muscle or strategy, but in in terms of like a weakness of there they they don't know how to do something. They don't know how to load something in one particular way. They a classic one for me is they don't know how to lateralize their mass. They can't get on one leg. They can't actually turn onto the foot. without this huge shift going on, without this huge orientational strategies going on. Like if the if there is like glaring based things, I think there is value in doing that. But I don't think you can take it to the point where you can just make elite people feel great all the time. Like it just doesn't. At the at that top Kaushal Sumedh: Hmm. Yeah. Jamie Smith: end of performance, like it's just it's just unfortunate. But the the byproduct of elite powerlifting is just they all feel shit in some way, in some point. Like it's you you can't get away from it. Kaushal Sumedh: Y 'cause 'cause like w Jamie Smith: It's just a it's the it's the by product of good training. Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, when you when you are moving load consistently at a higher level, like high amounts of load e even your D loads are basically like quite high at that point, Tapas: Hm. Kaushal Sumedh: right? When you're so strong and you're you're s you're you're at such a An elite level of powerlifting that fatigue is just a byproduct of your training. There's nothing else you can do. You you do try to manage it. Like that's the whole point of good programming and good, you know, strategies of like how to continue, how to not redline into injury and stuff like that. But then because load management is a big part of that. And you're, you know, as much as you want to recover from it, like you you get your sleep, you eat your food, everything is fine. You're still gonna have some kind of like pains and niggers from time to time. Cause sometimes I have these questions from people where they're like, Yeah, I don't feel too great, but but peaking, what are you expecting, right? Yeah, Jamie Smith: Yeah, what what are you gonna do? Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, what are you gonna do? That's that's just how it is. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of like accessories and like off seasons, I absolutely try to pull some of the specificity of position out and and give more variance in loading and give more access to reaching and single leg training and just generally things that will make people feel more human again. but I mean at at some point a lot of powerlifting training, volume intensities just push in the same direction and things yeah. Not to say that you can't have peaks that are feel great and and all of that, but at some Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: point, like you can't it can't be the primary goal to feel good when you're chasing that level of jay: Feel good, yeah. Tapas: Hm, yeah. Jamie Smith: performance. Like it there's times in the year where that should be the primary goal, but it it can't be like the the main thing that we're chasing. Yeah. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: I think like Jamie Smith: Well jay: Kyle had like sorry, sorry, Jim, go ahead. Jamie Smith: I was just gonna say, I do think though, especially with the reach, I do think just having some reach somewhere year-round is helpful. Just just get the scap up and around. Just something. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yep. jay: Yeah. Yep. Jamie Smith: Even if it's just two sets. A pec deck, one of my favorites, the feed up pec deck, just a really reachy pec deck, and just like don't don't drop the sternum, but just Don't force the sternum up on your pec deck. Just do the pec deck with a bit more of a shift. Like something like that. Just something in there. j just to just to let the scaps do the opposite thing that they're always fucking doing. I think is good. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: Yeah. jay: Okay. Because I remember like Kyle Gauss from Compound Performance had like in one of his videos, he was saying that at some point or the other performance and almost general health will start to deviate. Like athletes performing at the highest level consistently are pushing loads and stresses that are just not enjoyable. Like you see someone in the NBA like going through a whole season, you see a boxer or a fighter coming into a fight, like in a into a main event. Folks will have those kind of situations, right? That's where like effective level programming becomes all the more important. You can be beat up for various different reasons. Like a lot of times I've seen guys have all these tender-related issues, and that I, in my opinion, is just a lot of times because of like poor load management. Like I've seen that when people don't need that much, right? I I've kind of seen some folks where it's it's almost when they kind of get a little bit more structured programming, things become a lot better for them. And that's where I kind of want to ask you the thing about when you look at load imposition on an individual, right? We we can think about like external and internal loads as options that we have as to. tools that we have, right? So I I remember when the mentorship you talk Frank on Pelazari's whole model, right? if you if you could explain to the audience like what is external load, why what is internal load, and why Tapas: Hm. jay: does this interaction point matter all the more for us? Jamie Smith: Yeah. so I learnt this from the paper defining load, fifteen years on. I think it is. It's like a three it's like three pages. It's a very easy read. It's half half the pages are a fucking diagram. It's it's basically a picture book. And you can you can just follow the flow chart and it makes a lot of sense. But for the most part, external load is is typically defined as external to the human. It's objective things that you track within your training. so volume is part of external load, intensity is part of external load, r range of motion would be external load. the quality of movement is external load. So like the the distribution of that those forces through the system would be an external load. Just in in the endurance world, HRV is an external like a that's a a monitor of external load. Or it's a it's objective, it's an internal load metric, but it's an it's an objective external thing that you're looking at. So external load is anything outside that is a variable within training. internal load is the the response to the external load. So it's the internal processes that are that are happening as a response to the external load. And the internal load is shaped and influenced by many factors. The classic one is genetics. Your genetics shape your ability to adapt and and manage your external loads, your training history, your nutrition, your sleep, your diet. psychological factors, psychological stress, like all of that sort of stuff shapes the internal load. And then if you were to think about it in like a process, external load comes into the body. Your internal structures, your internal support systems manage that load. And they what ultimately it turns into is there is a psychophysiological response. So it's partly psychological and it's partly physiological. And then this is where placebo and nocebo lives. So the same load applied to two different people will be perceived and received differently because the psychophysiological Tapas: Differently. Jamie Smith: response is different. And then the most important thing with the whole model is that the adaptation is not directly influenced by the external load because it has to filter through the psychophysiological response. So the psychophysiological response is the stimulus. And then an example of that is you can tell someone they're on steroids, they're not training, and they get more jacked. So there's Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: no actual external load, but there's an internal thought, there's a psychological response that starts to trigger, and there there's other things going on, absolutely, but starts to trigger some processes that all of a sudden people get more jacked or or any of and there's endless studies to show the effect of placebo and nocebo performance and all of Tapas: Plus you yeah. Jamie Smith: that sort of stuff. But the most important thing with the with the understanding is that the external load is not the trigger. The trigger is the response Kaushal Sumedh: Mm, yeah. Jamie Smith: to the external load and it's also psychological. So part of this is you could give the same program repeatedly, and if the person believes that it's going to continue to work, it probably will just continue to work. Granted, at some point, if they lose confidence, if they lose belief, if they start doubting it. Even though it was a fantastic program that worked for so long, you might need to go and change the external load to get the buy-in back in, to build the the psychological Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: response and to go through that process again. So external load is the variables within training program. Typically, internal load is kind of this soup of response and it's influenced by a number of things. and that internal load starts to present with a psychophysiological response that that triggers the adaptations long term or even short term, actually. But yeah. Tapas: This is kind of why buy in is fundamentally important as well. Jamie Smith: Yeah, absolutely. Kaushal Sumedh: That that's all that's what I was talking about before, right? When I was talking about the foam roller thing that I said, like placebo matters quite a bit for people. Because if they genuinely believe that something really helps them, then you know, just go ahead, just keep doing it. It's okay. As like like even if I might not believe in it, I'll just be like, Yeah, go ahead, just do it. 'Cause I have questions sometimes where I'll where they'll be like, I'll be doing foam rolling, but then some people say it doesn't work. I feel like it's great and I'll be like, just go with it. It's okay. Just Jamie Smith: A hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: an extra five minutes of your day, that's okay, no problem. Makes you feel great, just do it. Jamie Smith: This is how I think about narratives. so at the on the on the x axis down here, we have evidence or logic to support the idea. So it just makes sense. It actually makes sense, or there's some evidence for it within true evidence. Not not your anecdotal evidence. anecdotal evidence can still impact it, but there's actual Kaushal Sumedh: Can't see it. Jamie Smith: hard evidence to support it. And then over here we have helpful and harmful. So top right quadrant of narratives, they're productive. We focus on them and develop them. They've got a lot of evidence to support it and they're very helpful. Classic one here is load management. That is ultimately Kaushal Sumedh: Yes. Jamie Smith: still a narrative, but it it is so helpful to get people to understand load, internal, external load, psychological impacts, the program, your effort. your consistency with training, like it's a very productive narrative. It's one that we should probably should build towards. I would put foam rolling over here. It's a Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: it's a meh narrative. It's Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: not harmful. It Kaushal Sumedh: Yes. Jamie Smith: might have no C big beliefs around it, but the actual act itself is not harmful. Like it's just a bit of foam roll work, but there's just no evidence to it. So I would try to re-educate it over time, but Kaushal Sumedh: Yes. Jamie Smith: but it's not something I'm trying to attack straight away. Like One that I'm at attacking straight away, no evidence, and very destructive would be something as simple as like spinal flexion's bad. Well, hang on. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: Like all of a sudden that's gonna impact so many areas of your life. It is actually destructive. You think your back is fragile, Tapas: Yeah. Jamie Smith: like all like that's something from the start I'm gonna start to try to challenge and and all of that sort of stuff. Kaushal Sumedh: Mm, mm. Jamie Smith: so depending on the narrative, depending on what it is, it kind of falls somewhere here and everyone's is gonna be slightly different. Like foam rolling to me would be like fucking here somewhere. Yeah. Like it's meh. Like I'm you you like it? Awesome. Go for it. I'm not even gonna try yeah, like it's yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm not gonna bother with that too much. I'm like, Yeah, you like it, go ahead. An extra five minutes Tapas: Why not? Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: and you f feel like you feel a lot better, then just do it. It's okay. Yeah. jay: Yeah. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. jay: Yeah, a and the whole spinal flexion thing 'cause I I remember there was a time where the McGill tree was the solution to all of life's problems, right? Like you Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. Tapas: Mm-hmm. jay: would have a headache and some dude would just be like, Yeah, just McGill tree it out and you'd be like I think Kaushell, do you remember the first Tapas: Mm-hmm. Jamie Smith: Yeah. jay: conversation you and I had, you're going through some back stuff and I was like, Hey dude, had you tried the McGill tree? And like back Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Tapas: Huh? jay: the Thank God he was allowed for light back then. He like, No, I don't think that's the thing that's gonna work. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, I was just like, nah that's not really the thing. I I get that most people think like that, but jay: There yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: you know, the more you understand this, the more you'll understand like Yeah, just let's not talk about the McGill big three. Tapas: Ha ha. jay: No, because because out outside of powerlifting, I just kinda wanna tell people this thing is that you cannot have that spinal flow because a lot of physios here still will advocate for that thing. Right? They they d they will just kind of advocate Jamie Smith: That's everywhere. jay: that that is a bad choice. Yeah. So the the weirdest thing is I always ask these people, have you ever played a sport? Like have you ever just I don't know played football? Have you played cricket? Have you bought baseball? Have you done anything outside? And you think your spine is always in one position. And for some reason there is this cognitive like inability to kind of align the two, right? That the humans are actually supposed to be doing this thing. Because when I kind of went through the mentorship and you kinda talked about the axial skeleton, how it actually works, the shapes of the axial skeleton basically. Like you kind of went through the C-shaped curve of the like animals that walk on all fours and then when you kind of stand up on two legs, the whole thing there. Man, like anatomy like that is never taught and it clearly creates like a fundamental like lack of communication between like an individual going through a situation and the person treating them. Kaushal Sumedh: Mm. Jamie Smith: Yeah. I I I think a lot of people's fears and it it it just it it is just re education. And that's ultimately why like Tapas: Hm. Jamie Smith: evidence based rehabilitation, like the the base layer of supportive evidence is actually education. Like like it almost not that it doesn't matter what you're doing, but if if education and and and learning is not part of it and self efficacy development and confidence development is not part of it, like long term pro like long term outcomes are just s like consistently poorer. Like if you just add in some education, it it's not that it doesn't matter what you're doing, but it it just makes the whole process so much better. And having a little bit of understanding from a coaching perspective of some of the, some of the very outdated narratives, flexion is bad, shoulder impingement, like they're probably the two that are jumping out. Knees going forward in a squat, that that still is around. jay: Well yeah. Jamie Smith: Like people are scared Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: to let their knees go forward. Like Anterior pelvic tilt would be another classic one. Flat feet would be another, yeah, like flat feet jay: my god, yes. Yes. Jamie Smith: would be another classic one. Like these, these like just dogmatic structural narratives that that hold ultimately hold people back. But like if if as a coach, if you can understand, all right, that's what that is, it's actually just a narrative. It's just a a group of people that some in some decade, 50 years ago, tried to describe what was going on and they just spoke about the structural stuff and it just kind of developed and grew into industries and all of this sort of stuff. Like it was just their best guess at the time. Those people, if you gave them all the evidence now, that there's every chance that they would have just turned around and be like, I was so fucking wrong back then. And some people have done that. But if you could just view it, it it's just a guess of what's going on. it's an outdated guess and have a better a a better development for yourself and understanding and education for yourself. You can help clients just break through those things so so easily. And and quite often it's it's not that difficult to get people to see, jay: Yep, yep. Jamie Smith: actually, yeah, I it's fine to bend my knees forward or it's fine to have an anterior tilt when I'm training lengthened hamstrings and when I'm trying to brace for my squatting, I probably don't want too much of it. Like Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: it's it's just a position. It's not a bad position. It's just a position. Kaushal Sumedh: I and it's such such a simple thing to actually like just change. Like if you're actually going too much into APD, just a couple of cues and a couple of sensory drills as you said. It just fixes 'cause 'cause I've seen guys who literally said like, Yeah, you can't fix APD, you need a surgery for that. And I was What the hell are you talking about? Like like actual coaches. And I was like, That's not true. It it's very simple to just fix that. I I and it I I don't want to Jamie Smith: Just tuck it. jay: No, okay. Kaushal Sumedh: say I don't even want to use the word fix, like you can just shift away from that a little bit where required. 'Cause it's not something Jamie Smith: Yeah, yeah. I like that. Kaushal Sumedh: to fix. It's not it's not like a It's not a disease or like, you know, something Tapas: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: that that needs fixing. It's just a position that is useful in certain places, in certain movements, and then it's not in other places. You don't want it in other places. That's it. So like when you when when we talk about APT like that, because here like when people talk about APT, they're like, you need a surgery now. Just j what for what? For a little bit of tilt? That Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: that's yeah. So you you see that the narrative is very Tapas: That's really yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: different. Jamie Smith: Yeah. That's that's that's a Kaushal Sumedh: That that's why you're so apprehensive of sending anybody to physios when they have rehab, which is why I think like the I told Jay like we need to learn rehab to at least at least to some degree. Like we're not DPTs per se, but like to some degree we need to learn rehab so that we can help our clients and understand movements better. Like even though eventually like like see, because for me, it was like I just want to be a powerlifting coach, right? Like all I care is about powerlifting programming, SBD and stuff like this. But as I spent more and more time over the years. What I realize is like you have to get good at everything. You have to be good at yeah, because yeah, you need Jamie Smith: Hundred percent. You yeah. A hundred percent. Kaushal Sumedh: to understand biomechanics, you need to understand like movement, you need to understand like how how these things apply to this, and then movement variability, and then where you might encounter like different different problems as bottlenecks, like what is it hypertrophy? Is it like this particular movement or technique or anything of that sort? You need to be good at everything so that you can actually do right by the client that comes to you, by the athlete that comes to you. Because you don't have the option of referring people out here. Cause Tapas: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: you yeah, you don't have that option at all. Like, Jamie Smith: That's unfortunate. Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, you don't have that option of just saying, like, well, I don't know, maybe you should just go to physio. Cause I see that in like I would say that India tries to follow suit of the US usually, because we try to follow what the US does. And in the US, you see a lot more coaches who are powerlifting centric refer their clients out to physios who have a good understanding of powerlifting. Right. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: You see that they work in collaboration. But then in India, we we do not have that option at all. Cause every single time you have an opportun like any kind of issue like that, you send a lifter to a physio, and the first line of thing is like, yeah, you need to stop lifting at all. Yeah. Yeah, straight off Jamie Smith: You get the narrative. You get a narrative straight off the bat. jay: Yeah. Tapas: But better st. Kaushal Sumedh: the bat, it's like, yeah, you're no no more lifting for you. Well, you have like your your disc popped out, no more lifting for you. So you you Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: kinda have to learn stuff yourself and kind of apply that yourself so that you can help fix things for the lifter. Jamie Smith: I think I think I think learning rehab, and again, like you don't it's not that we're diagnosing or anything, but just learning how to manage and monitor symptoms, how to Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Smith: like the it it it's a it it's so valuable. Every single client you ever coach Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. It it is it is. Jamie Smith: is gonna have something that needs to be managed at some point. Like it just yeah. jay: No, because I I kinda come back to you all like original mentorship, right? The thing is is how do you kind of shift around the skeleton? Like I had a guy for example who couldn't bench comm style for a while. Right? He just couldn't get into that position without some pinching sensation in the back. That's been there for a while, but he joined and he said, Can we fix this? Honestly, all we did was like one, the way I communicated to him because I would say this like Kaushal, you've had y like a decades worth of experience, Jamie, you've had like years and years and years worth of experience. How you talk to an athlete? Like having their back when they're down is extremely important, I feel like just kind of talk Talking to them and saying this is something we can get through, all right? You kind of want to understand this aspect, and then something as fun, simple as like feed up benchy. This guy had a very aggressive arch. Even when he would do pec text, he would have his like sternum popped out to his nose, right? So the entire thing was like, Can I get this guy to shift back? And just doing that was like an easy way to get him to break like a long-time standing PR. But the reality is like when I when he he mentioned that when he'd gone to like a physio, the very first thing the physio said, Yeah, you just have rotated. Off issues, right? And I'm like, dog, you are Kaushal Sumedh: Mm, mm, mm. jay: benching like 130 kilos, and you are overhead pressing like a ton of weight while you weigh so little. I do not think that that is the big spiel for us here, right? And I think this is where, like, again, fundamental models, fundamentally understanding the base principles becomes all the more important, and like this is where that anatomy, like you said, like it's talking backwards, like the muscle first, and then you kind of come into the skeleton as an option, right? I think that is where, like, just changing skeletal frame. frameworks becomes all the more important. Just getting people moving better. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah, well the muscles respond to the bones, so jay: Yeah. No. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, the the better you move Yeah. Jamie Smith: Bones are the input. jay: Exactly. Jamie's thing about educating people and breaking the nocebos was one of I think we spent an entire hour and a half during the mentorship on that, on one of the QA calls. And Jamie Smith: Yeah. jay: I was just telling people, I just tell people like just sit straight. Just don't move. Just sit straight. Now move your chest forward. Right. I tell them to move your chest forward. And they do that. And I'm like, are all the muscles in your back contracted? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, I never asked you to do that, right? But you kind of moved your skeleton around and you kind of get these outcomes to kind of happen. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: Right. And then all of a sudden it's almost like a light bulb kind of clicking in their head. And once Jamie Smith: Yeah, hundred percent. jay: you yeah. And and and and I was just telling some folks is like the concept of if you can touch upon this, like the concept of relative motion and orientation, w I think this is something if a coach can understand this, that would really help them out as well in my opinion. Jamie Smith: Yeah. So it's principle number five. so central nervous system is reactive. So muscle tension is a reactive output. So if you want to change tension, we have to change the inputs. Center of mass based support, mass moves, skeleton moves, tension response to all that. three, internal pressure management, four forces proximal, distal, distal, and proximal. Number five is motion, will then be expressed in two primary ways. So it's relative motion. So it it can get very confusing, but I think the easiest way to think about it is just thinking, is the actual joint that I want the motion to be c moving and loading, is that where the motion's coming from? Or is that joint being moved from something else? So an example of this would be the knees coming towards midline in the squat. so is it actually the knee twisting? And and dumping to midline, or is it the foot flattening and the whole leg moving towards midline? that's probably like the easiest example of is it relative motion? So is the motion actually coming from the knee, or is it coming from some other change in the system? Is it the system reorienting itself to achieve Kaushal Sumedh: Hm. Jamie Smith: the task? and then going back to the very first principle, which is that the the the the the nervous system is reactive. The task is what it's reacting to. So if you just tell people, I want you to squat, doesn't matter how many cues and shit you give them, their nervous system is just trying to go down and then come straight back up. Like that's ultimately all it's trying to do. So it can achieve going down and coming straight back up in a million different ways. It could, it could spread the floor, it could b bow the knees out, it could dump the knees in, it could round the back, it could extend the back, it could shift forward, it could shift back. Like there's a million ways. It could shift to one side. There's a million ways for it to actually reorganize and achieve the task. But it's ultimately just responding to the task. and orientational strategies are one way that it could respond. It's not bad orientational strategies. They're not bad, but they're just they're just one way that it might start to present. the value in relative motion is that when we get the relative change at the bones, we share or we shift the length of the tissues. And when you add load to the length shift, that is what actually creates the the the loading of tissues, the lengthening of tissues, the str the stressing and and the adaptations from it. whereas orientational shifts, they can kind of bypass joints, and that's when you end up. no longer training the hip extensors, you're training back extensors or some other area of the body, even though you're trying to get glutes. The motion's coming from somewhere else. It's not actually coming where you want it. So people demonize orientational stuff and try to always coach in the direction of relative. But for the most part, they're just two different strategies. That's all it is. And like you might not like it. That's great. If you don't like what it looks like, just teach them a new way. Because loading is a skill. Movement is a skill. Like you just teach them a different way. more often than not. But yeah, that was a bit of a rant. jay: No, but but but understanding that fundamental principle is very helpful when you look at things like a bot width. When you look at a butt wink, what Tapas: Mm. jay: is the entire system doing, right? It is just the pelvis starts to dump because it's kind of taken one movement strategy. It is, can we just coach out of that thing? And and like Haushul says, or like Tapas' experience recently, like we were talking about guys saying, it's like pelvic this is happening, so we have to entirely deload the squat and build up your like glute muscles or something. And you're just sitting there going, like, we why? Right? It Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: is essentially you can just effectively coach them away from these kind of situations. And Jamie, I think I remember. Remember you mentioning in the mentorship, like at high level performance, it is like the entire system will start to orient. You give an example of like a guy pressing overhead, for example, and you kind of show the picture of him just throwing it back, right? And then just like heaving the weight. So just so that when people hear this, there is at the highest level, like in within the gym, you want to train relative motion in your accessories, you want to load tissue, you want to distribute the load accordingly. But when it comes to high-level performance and just like a do-or-die situation, the system will just Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean like yeah. Dial that technique in Jamie Smith: It would just achieve the task. It w it it it its goal is to achieve the task. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: as second nature work so that when you're actually facing that do or die kind of situation, you don't have to think. Because you can't sit there and think about s like Maybe one RM or even Supermax loads, like you know, you've you you must have seen many situations where lifters peak really well and they're actually ready for something more than what they've done previously, right? Like this is the first time they're ever doing it and it's on platform. You don't have the luxury to just sit there and think, okay, my coach told me big toe pressure in and yeah, you can't do that on maximum loads, right? You you just can't do that. So that's the reason why keep saying like every single thing, like you need to treat your training session. If you want to be elite powerlifter, like really good. Then the like every single session, you just want to go on with the idea that this is practice, and you want to make sure that you're doing the best at practice. So that when you're on comp, i like in the competition on midday, you don't have to think too much. Or even when you're pushing high RPE workload, you don't have to think too much. Like it has to become second nature for you to just c get under the bar, walk out, and just sit and come back up. You know, within like good technique, whatever that means to you as a as an individual individual lifter. Jamie Smith: Yeah. I I agree one hundred percent. Absolutely. Yeah. jay: No, because right now in the off season I I I did wanna because it is catching a little bit of attention on on the online space, Jamie. You covered it on the mentorship, like when people shift away from a squat, right? Like when they kinda sit down into a squat and they sh kind of shift away into one leg and situations like that. how do you usually approach those kind of situations of people? Like when when someone you see that they have that lateral shift happening. Because like movement strategies are talked about. Sorry. Jamie Smith: Yeah, I Yeah, I I I I think technique breakdown, whatever it is. Like I think the first thing that you kind of need to identify is at what threshold is the technique breaking down. So like if it's if it's sub max and it's it's just it's always evident, it's always there. It it it it's kind of there from like your first couple of warm up sets all the way through, it's always evident. I'm probably thinking more along the lines of something that is potentially like a mobility based thing, like it presents all the time. like a breakdown that only presents at at at like eighty, ninety percent, maybe high RPEs, high fatigue based things. Potentially it's just a capacity of skill expression that needs to be expo e challenged and exposed. if it if it I I think some people like they see a movement breakdown at their max lift and that I think it kind of a red herring. It's just like that's just the max. Something was going to sort of break down. Like it, jay: See ya. Jamie Smith: if your knees Tapas: Yeah. Jamie Smith: come in at at at your one RM, but you've never seen it before, it's like, no, you don't have a problem there. It's just you were at your fucking max for your technique and you and you so it kind of depends on where the thresholds are. but my fix to all technique breakdowns, if I if I believe that it is something to be developed is I treat everything like a skill first. Everything is a skill before it is another problem. Like it's just the the base thing. There's no narrative there. It's just like, let's see if we can change the way you feel this expression and and and develop it. So, like a like a lateral shift. Let's say I'm I'm starting to problem solve that. Well, the first thing I'm trying to do is can I actually load the other leg? The leg that I'm offloading, can I actually load it well? so go and try some single leg stuff. Can I orient and turn into that position and actually load the medial foot and push down into the ground and hold my shape and And all of that. Can I develop the skill of using that leg more? and then see if that builds into the squat. Maybe it's a cue like spread the floor. Shit narrative for spread the floor is you weak loot, Kaushal Sumedh: Mm. Jamie Smith: one weak loot. Good narrative to spread the floor is I'm just giving you a better strategy to load both feet. That's all it is. I'm just I'm just keeping Tapas: Comes back to our yeah. Jamie Smith: I'm just keeping you balanced. So like you don't move to the left. You have to push on to the le onto the right leg. So like just simple things to for people to build awareness. Build some sensory a awareness, that input, change those inputs that they can build the understanding, they can actually feel the good rep versus the bad rep, challenge that expression and develop it. I I treat almost everything like a skill before it's any other problem. and I would recommend people do that. just treat it all like a skill. jay: Yeah. 'Ca 'cause usually the narrative that kinda comes attached to this is that there is a lack of stability. Like it's it's i Tapas: Hm. jay: like this is where I come back to like one of the things that you mentioned in the initial narratives you want to dispel when I was like doing the mentorship was that like the whole thing of stability being a trainable quality. Right? like have you kinda changed your mind in terms of that? Like how do you like you know exact thank god, right? So like well i because tha that that's a that's a thing here still, right? 'Cause you have stability based training and that's sold as a Big spiel like 'cause Jinn 'cause I Kaushal Sumedh: yeah, it's huge, dude. People make tons of money from that. It's crazy to Tapas: Stability. Kaushal Sumedh: me. jay: It i it is easier to become a billionaire off of stability training than it is to sell cope to. Like I swear to God, 'cause it i i i i Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. Like like you you Tapas: Ha ha ha. Kaushal Sumedh: start selling these programs of people squatting on bosle balls and doing like animal flow stuff, you will make tons of money. It's crazy. People are willing to pay like w I don't know how much do you what what do you convert that into Australian dollars? How how do you tell that to him? how how much money is that? Like per seminar, one lakh jay: Yeah. I think as Kaushal Sumedh: or some 70,000, one lakh, what is that like in AUD? jay: It's about about like around a thousand dollars, thousand two hundred dollars. Yeah. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: Thousand, yeah, thousand Australian. Yeah, like a like a couple of hours, thousand dollars Jamie Smith: really? Kaushal Sumedh: per person and you have like multiple people joining in, that's a good paycheck right there. And if Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: you convert that into Indian, this thing, right? That's a that that's Tapas: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: very good living. jay: 'Cause like the thing about like stability, Tapas: Yeah. jay: stability is a thing, right, Jamie? Like w w because I I I would love your take on this, like to kind of tell people what is stability essentially, why should or should it not be viewed as a trainable quality? Jamie Smith: Well, that's my my first issue with it is no one can actually define it. That that would be my that would be my first problem. Not not the true definition of stability, which is balance. Like a a system is destabilized and Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Jamie Smith: is perturbed and and regains its balance point. That's that's the actual definition of stability. But what everyone and and and the the difference in now industry is that they try to localize it to a joint. So they try to localize jay: Yeah. Jamie Smith: this destabilization at a joint. but if you ask 10 trainers to define stability, let's just say hip stability, there'd be 10 different answers. Like that's the first problem. It's not definable. The second problem is it's not objectively progressible. So jay: Yeah. Jamie Smith: one person's stability, good stability, is not the same as another person's good stability. So there's no objectivity to the to the process of it. compare that to strength output, it is purely objective. Compare that to hypertrophy, it is purely objective. To compare that to movement efficiency, it is it is objective. endurance is objective, range of motion is objective. Like all the actual trainable outcomes are objective. Stability is not objective, it is laid in subjectivity. which is fine. Like there can be subjective outcomes for training, but in the true sense of what our job is boiled down, it's the objective trainable outcome. Stability doesn't fall under that. But then the third part to it is What everyone thinks is training stability is actually just training motor control. So motor control is coordinated it's it's a system with a central nerve, it's an organism with a CNS coordinating movement. That's that's ultimately what motor control is. That is what everyone thinks stability is. Is is that you you in some way change how the nervous system coordinates this skill and builds this skill. It's skill development, it's just motor control development. And motor control has been studied at the wazoo. Like just either call it what it is, which is just skill, or yeah, that's why I don't so that's like the the theoretical side of why I just I I think it's bogus. But this the second part to that is at a localized joint. So let's just say the hip. When when we're dropping down into the squat, let's just keep it sagittal plane, the quads are controlling the eccentric. And the glute max is controlling the eccentric. As you push into the ground, the quad produces the concentric and the glute can pr produces the concentric. So at both joints, all of the activity is happening on one side of the joint. It's all happening. It's it's lowered by one muscle and it's producing force with the same muscle to come back out of position. So anything that layers opposing antagonistic force against that. you make the skill, you make the expression less efficient because you're making the main thing work harder to create the motion. So you nobody thinks hamstrings in the squat because you you just don't bring it in at the knee level. But no one would ever discuss quad versus hamstring for knee for s for squat performance. But you go to the hip and then everyone's like it's hip flexor. Your hip flexor's not doing it's like the hip flexors aren't doing shit all here. jay: Shit, yeah. Jamie Smith: It's all happening on the backside, it's all happening at the adductors, it's all happening in that area. That quadrant is controlling down, holding position, pushing back up. Anything that gets laid against that actually creates more effort out of those muscles. So, like it it it just the logic even breaks down when you actually get into it. There is a small which is antagonistic coactivation. which is like a small fluttering of tension on antagonistic muscles. the rotator cuff is a classic one for this, where where people think that the rotator cuff as a reactive tension strategy, it definitely is. but antagonistic coactivation is actually trained out of the system when you become more efficient as well. So, jay: Yep, yep. Jamie Smith: so as you become more efficient and and stronger and more forceful in your positions, part of that outcome is actually antagonistic muscles decreasing. their strength and their tension input into system into the system. So it breaks down again. Like it just when you actually get into it, it just breaks down in so many situations. It's like it it just doesn't need to be it's it's it's ultimately nothing. In in in in the training outcomes of what our jobs are, it's nothing. It's a narrative that's so misunderstood. jay: I would say like like you mentioned, like you wanna have objective landmarks. You wanna have key performance indicators that you can actually base your training off of. And you said the def definition is extremely subjective. So how can you pin performance to something that is always changing in terms of a goalpost, right? It just becomes but that then again that that is where like the whole thing about We again come back to people who are physios in the space. Like you you for example, the shoulders. You talk about deep shoulder stabilizer muscles in like the mentorship when I was there. And we talked about how do you isolate them? Like someone asked you a question and you're like, How do you isolate them? Like, how do you how do you do any of these things? Right? You just do good training. You take them through the movement patterns they require and you establish good movement patterns. And I I I think what Jamie's just done a brilliant job of here is telling us is that it's all a skill at the end of the day, right? The system is learning to like learn a skill. Does it when it's in an easy environment, and then you kind of slowly want to scale in terms of that stuff. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: And I and that is why I am like I I'm always grateful for the mentorship that I did with you simply because a lot of the times, like it's been a year and a half now. A lot of the times, even when I kind of sit across new like content that I consume, it always goes back to the fundamental like thought processes you taught me about, right? I I that that is something I'm always grateful for. And I always tell people, like, JV's mentorships are still ongoing, like I think the seventh. Cohort just got picked up if I'm not mistaken. Jamie Smith: Starts on Monday. jay: Money. perfect. Right. Because like I was telling people, it is something that I think people should really invest into. Because if you assume program like programming an athlete or a client is just numbers on a spreadsheet, right? There are layers of these things that you really need to understand. That that that that slide Jamie was like n nice enough to kind of share in terms of his training model. It may look complex, but if you invest your time and effort into Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Yeah. jay: like mentorships like Jamie's, like because we want to bring folks on that can demystify the stuff. I I truly believe it is a worthwhile investment for every single individual listening to this podcast. I think whenever Jamie's next 'cause I think Jamie can can can you just also like we don't want to take too much of your time, but could you also just tell people like what are the levels of services that you offer? 'Cause I think that one on one mentorship sh short courses. Jamie Smith: Yeah, yeah. So I I got rid of the short courses. I'm gonna bring one back though. I am gonna bring one back. So I'm gonna bring a a a a more entry level price point for sure. but the main flagship one is my movement mentorship, which is the one Jay's talking about. It's it's it's it's the one that's been ongoing. I I refine it, I I try to improve it. Especially this year I've I've I've upgraded it a significant amount 'cause it's now my full time job. But That's the main one, which is a 10 week online mentorship. But secondary to that, I have a group-based mentorship that's a it's it's significantly cheaper. It's just kind of ongoing. I have closed that publicly though to focus on the movement mentorship. And then the other part to that is one-on-one mentoring. but what I would say to most people, if you if you'd like my ideas and and you enjoy even just like my short form content or some of my longer form content, whether it's out like the older stuff from the Strength Culture page or my newer stuff on the training model YouTube channel. Like if you just enjoy my ideas, I can't the best place to start is the movement mentorship. Just do go through the journey, go through the full thing, learn it piece by piece, come out the other end, and then however deep you want to go after that, we can go. Like we can go wherever you want to take it. But ultimately like if if if if these ideas are thought provoking. It's like actually I've never thought about it like that. Or that actually makes a lot of sense. Or that's actually a challenging thing to to kind of grasp. Like I can kind of see some of the truth there. But if if it brings up any of that, just jump in the mentorship. Like it it's it's the best place to start. And you get the biggest, broadest view of the whole thing. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: Because I I do just want to mention to people like cultural couplers, we've all seen guys that come to us and they just don't know how to move, right? They just don't and and I a lot of the times these guys have worked with other coaches that just don't know how to kind of communicate effectively. And that is where like I think Jamie's mentorship can kind of like bridge the gap very effectively in my opinion. It is something that teaches you how to think and how to tackle problems, right? guys, is there any further questions on your end that you want to kind of shoot Jamie's way? Kaushal Sumedh: I think it's pretty c like pretty clear everything that it it makes Tapas: We've covered every yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: a lot of sense. Th reason why I kept saying like we should probably take a look at the diagram is because like 'Cause Jay and I have like dabbled into this from different places. Like I I had I I had done this all I had done all of this from like the Comport Performance Mentorship back when it was when it was available. I don't think it's available anymore. But and Jay's got it from you and f a couple of other places. So that's the reason why I was just like, if you have the diagram a bit, then people can kind of Jamie Smith: Visual help. Kaushal Sumedh: just yeah, visualize a little better. Because like when when we just bounce ideas off and we're talking about stuff like we can get it. You know, pretty easily. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: But then like as you said, like the more you understand, the more all of this will make sense to you. Cause when you ta take a look at everything from a like a broader view, you're just like, What the hell is going on? I don't understand any of it. But but once you start understanding the principles and like why you're saying what you're saying, they they just kind of figure it out. And as you said, like the mentorship's probably the best place to start. Cause you'll have like a very good like module of explaining things. jay: Yeah, it is the best. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, explaining things as well. And as people start understanding like you know, s individual concepts, then they can understand the broader view of the whole system much better. Because that's how any mentorship really like plays out. Like they tell you the the individual stuff that you can understand and then you start like connecting the dots from one one to the other. And then eventually you get like a very good understanding, like an eagle eye view of the whole system. And you're like, all of this makes sense now. Whereas before Tapas: Hm. Kaushal Sumedh: it didn't make sense, right? So good mentorships are something, and this is something that I told Jay, like good mentorships don't give you an answer. They teach you how to think. jay: Yeah, they don't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: That that that's that's yeah, and that's that's Jamie Smith: Yeah, that's my goal. Kaushal Sumedh: like you I think that's like for anybody who's watching this, that's like the biggest thing that I wanna tell you guys that none of these guys are gonna give you an answer. They're gonna make you think harder. So you need to understand like it's gonna make you a much better coach through that way. It's not like like they'll give you the answer. It's not like they'll give they won't tell you anything. that's not what I'm trying to say. But like the thing is like they they're gonna give you a framework of trying to think for yourself so that you jay: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: can start figuring out problems in the future. It's not yeah. Jamie Smith: It's it's it's teach teach a man to fish metaphor. If I just give if yeah if I just give you a bunch Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like teach a man to fish and then for the rest of your life you'll know how to fish. But if you Tapas: Yeah. jay: Exactly. Yeah. Jamie Smith: of fish, you're fucked in six months. But if let me teach you how Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like that. jay: Yeah, not good. Jamie Smith: to put the rod in the water properly and do the right things and yeah, you'll be fine. Okay. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: Yeah. I wish I'd have done his mentorship just a couple months prior to that, because I spent a bit of money going down a few rabbit holes and then yeah and I yeah Jamie Smith: I remember that actually. I remember you saying those are jay: and I was just sitting there going like Jesus Christ I could have bought a house or something. Right. No, but but Jamie Jamie Smith: Mm-hmm. I'm glad you're still I'm I'm I'm glad it's Tapas: Yeah. Jamie Smith: still the one of the main things you're thinking through. That's good. jay: It i i you know, it is the foundation. I I tell people like no questions asked about that. If if I were to say like where should people start? I had a background in commercial law, I was a commercial lawyer, I did not have a framework. Jamie's mentorship, I reached out of him, the man said this is something that you can anyone can kinda you had a short course at the time, you were like, If you want, kinda give that a look. Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Smith: Yeah, I I yeah, you came through that. Yeah, that's gone. That's gone. jay: But but but I will still say, like the main movement mentorship is if anyone here is listening that is considering upskilling themselves, there is no better place to start off than Jamie's movement mentorship. It will give you a framework to tackle just about anything under the sun. Jamie Smith: Thank you. I appreciate it. jay: Guys, if there's nothing furthermore, I wanna say, Jamie, thank you so much for your time, your efforts, man. It means a lot to us. Where can people kinda reach out to you? Where can kind of people like find you? Is there any place you would want them to kind of reach out? Jamie Smith: Just Instagram. Go to Instagram. Tapas: Yeah. Jamie Smith: j dotsmith.culture. That's the central hub. Yeah. jay: Guys, Kaushal Sumedh: And yeah. Well, I just I just want jay: what Kaushal Sumedh: to thank you as well, you know, for joining us and like giving us the opportunity to sit and talk to you for like what two hours now and pick your brains a little bit, get an Tapas: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Jamie Smith: Yeah. jay: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: idea of how you think. this this is this Jamie Smith: I appreciate it. Kaushal Sumedh: is something that that's really gonna change the way that people start thinking here, 'cause that's that's the objective, jay: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: right? To get the best as just that to get the best that we know and we think are the best around the world and you know, get all of them together one one. Get get how they look at things, how they think of things. Because there'll be similarities. Like I said, like everybody has access to the same kind of scientific data. Right? Like on a research paper level, we're all reading the same stuff. We're all reading similar stuff at least. And we all have like a similar understanding and idea of things. But then the way you perceive information and the way you apply it can change a little bit. So like the way you approach a particular problem can be a little different from someone else who's also seen success in the fitness industry. will will approach, right? So that that's kind of what we want to get different perspectives from some of the best of the world and see how they think so that we can start making people think differently here. jay: my apologize. I want to say something. This if if you take this mentorship, it'll help Kaushul out a lot 'cause every time he posts out a QA, there'll be ten different guys asking us, Can you explain Tapas: Yeah. jay: why this hurts or why that hurts? And a always Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. jay: his response is, Well, it depends, right? You kinda have to give me a bit more information. Kaushal Sumedh: Yeah. Like I have no idea. I need to see. I need to see what's happening. Jamie Smith: Yeah. Kaushal Sumedh: I need to see a little bit more context. I need to understand. And they'll be like, Yeah, this guy just wants me to join his coaching. Like, I mean, if if you want to share, go ahead. Tapas: Mm-hmm. Kaushal Sumedh: I I mean I don't I don't even take clients anymore. I'm booked out. I don't take lifters anymore. But like w when like people think that, you know, when I say that, yeah, it depends, they're like, this guy's trying sell me something. It actually depends. Like if you want to go get needle like if you if you want to get your ass needled for the next six months, like be my guest. 'Cause that's that's like the most like the easiest thing is like the needling therapy. I don't know if you're if that's a thing in the in Australia. Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's massive. It's massive. Kaushal Sumedh: That's like huge here. Like anything happens, you just needle that shit. Yeah. Jamie Smith: Needle the fuck out of it, yeah. A couple of needles, you'll be all right. No, I I appreciate having me on, fellas. jay: Yeah guys, Jamie Smith: And I I actually I like the deeper talk, so thank you. It's very rare that people actually let me rant, so I appreciate it. jay: Thank you, thank you, Jimmy. Thank you guys. Peace guys. Kaushal Sumedh: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Jamie, for joining us. Tapas: Alright, so yeah. Jamie Smith: Thank you. Tapas: We will see you in the next one. I hope I really hope you found value in this one. No jay: yeah. by by the way, cow i if you made it this i if you made it this far, DM Tapas for his credit card details. Like whoever makes it to the end of the podcast always gets access to his credit card Tapas: No, don't don't DM me, bro. jay: details. Kaushal Sumedh: People keep asking for his sec for his what what, the Tapas: Okay, yeah, Jay Kaushal Sumedh: credit card details and social Tapas: this is like a Kaushal Sumedh: security number? Tapas: it's like a very constant thing now. He's been saying jay: Yeah. Tapas: this for the past seven episodes. Anyways, so yeah, thank you for watching. You know, I w hope we hope that you found value in this one, which I'm hundred percent sure you did if you watched this far. But yeah, anyways. we'll see you in the next one. And yeah, peace. Bye bye. jay: Please guys see it. Bye bye. Jamie Smith: Thank you.