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The Elastic Band That Became a Global Brand · eCommerce Podcast

0:01
Well, hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast. My name is Matt Edmundson. It
0:05
is great to be with you on this beautiful sunny day, all the way from Liverpool,
0:10
England. I am really looking forward to today's show. It's taken us a little
0:14
while to get this one in the diary, but we got there in the end. And so make
0:19
sure you are in a place where you can take notes. Of course, if you're driving
0:23
or out walking the dog, You can get the notes from the description, just scroll
0:27
down, it will give you a link to the website. There'll be very detailed notes on
0:32
the website. You can go find all of that at ecommercepodcast.net. Now, if you're
0:36
a new listener, very warm welcome to you. It's great to have you join us. And if
0:41
you're a faithful regular, welcome back, you legend you are. Yes, you are. It's
0:45
great to have you as part of the journey. Thanks for the comments. Thanks for
0:49
getting in touch. Course, if you ever want to reach out to me, just go find me
0:54
on LinkedIn, Matt Edmundson, or you can find me on Instagram, Matt Edmundson.
0:58
Either one works. I will see you on there. But that's enough spiel from me.
1:03
Emma, welcome to the show. How are we doing today?
1:07
Yeah, I'm great. Thank you. Finally, we finally get this recording date
1:12
together. So, yes, schedules have been busy.
1:18
Yes, it's been one of those where persistence has definitely paid off. And so
1:22
thank you for joining us. Whereabouts are you?
1:27
I'm in Bournemouth. So, uh, I just kind of thought when you said live from
1:29
Liverpool, I thought, well, I am actually at the opposite end of the country to
1:32
you.
1:34
It's live from Liverpool and a Bournemouth studio. Yeah, for those of you
1:38
outside of England, Bournemouth is literally right on the south coast, um, and
1:42
Liverpool's there kind of, I suppose, two-thirds of the way up the country. Um,
1:46
so, uh, depending on whereabouts you are in the world, that's either a really
1:49
long distance from each other or it's really tiny.
1:53
Yeah, for us Brits, it feels like it's a really long way away.
1:56
Yeah, like, like separate country and everything, isn't it really? Uh, but
1:59
welcome to the show, man. Tell us a little bit about your company, what you do
2:02
as an ecommerce founder yourself.
2:06
Yeah, so my company is called Laceeze. Um, it's quite a niche product, um,
2:11
something that was designed— I have spent, uh, sort of most of the last 10 to 5
2:16
years on the sidelines of a football pitch. Um, and in true kind of footy mum
2:21
style, I am there in the, the wind and the rain and the mud and everything else
2:27
that England brings to us. And it was during a training session when my youngest
2:32
was playing and somebody came and they put an elastic band around their kids'
2:37
football boots. And somebody said to the guy, what are you doing that for? He's
2:42
like, stops laces from coming undone. So lo and behold, we all watched that boy,
2:48
not our own kids, for that whole training session. And his shoelaces didn't come
2:53
undone, whereas ours probably 3, 4, 5 times, regardless of who was tying the
2:58
laces, regardless of whether they had a double knot, they came undone. And
3:04
literally it was just like one of those moments like, hmm, that works. Now I
3:09
wonder if we can get a product that kids will want to wear, parents will want to
3:14
buy. And lo and behold, that's where Laceeze came from., and we launched that in
3:19
2017, and we're still going strong today.
3:25
This is amazing. I'm really curious, Emma, if I can ask, why would you stand on
3:30
the sidelines of your kids' football and think, I wonder if there's a product
3:34
there? Are you kind of entrepreneurial background? Was it what Michael Gerber
3:39
calls an entrepreneurial seizure? What was going on in that moment?
3:44
Yeah. Do you know what? I do have like this, little black book of like crazy
3:48
ideas. So not like I wouldn't say I'm like an inventor and I'd like, I would
3:53
never use that. I wouldn't sort of coin myself with that. Save that for Mr.
3:58
Dyson. But I, yeah, I do kind of like sit there and think, I wonder if that's a,
4:03
you know, that could be a thing or that could be a thing. But so prior to
4:07
launching Laceeze, I have had some other businesses. So I ran a contract cleaning
4:12
company. Prior to that, my first career was I was— I trained as a vet nurse, so
4:17
entrepreneurial. Um, probably the spark of entrepreneurialism came when I
4:22
absolutely loved that job. I love being around animals, but I did not love
4:26
earning £80 a week and like working every hour that, that was given. So
4:31
something in me, I was like, I just can't do this. I need, I need to kind of be
4:36
doing something for myself. So my first business I set up was a contract
4:41
cleaning company. Um, knew absolutely nothing, to be honest, about running a
4:45
business. I knew how to look after animals, um, but I didn't know how to clean.
4:50
And set up this company, didn't know how to do invoicing, but built quite a big
4:55
business. So my husband was involved in property, and at the time in Dorset
5:00
where I'm based, there was like this huge property boom. So I just started kind
5:05
of reaching out to every builder, and we started doing all the builders' cleans.
5:09
Then we picked up some local authority contracts. Then before I knew it, I had
5:14
60 members of staff, and that was quite a— yeah, it became quite a big thing.
5:19
So, um, kind of just learned, you know, how to run businesses just from giving
5:24
it a go, really. Um, I'm not your textbook kind of, uh, business builder. I've
5:28
never written a business plan in my life.
5:33
So, well, I love that. Me either.
5:36
Emma, to be fair.
5:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never. I remember, I remember one lady, uh, I don't know if
5:41
you have this when you run a business, a lot of people who want to start a
5:45
business come talk to you and they, they want that, your advice. And I remember
5:49
a few years ago, one lady came, she said, can I come talk to you? I want to
5:53
start this business, but I'm a bit confused about a few things. I'm like, sure,
5:57
come on to the office. And she came to the office and we had this, at the time
6:01
we had this boardroom table, and Um, she came and I sat down at the table and
6:04
I'm like, right, how are we getting on? What's going on? And she goes, well,
6:08
just a second, let me show you something. And she pulls out of a bag a stack of
6:12
papers and she lays them out on the boardroom table in different piles. And I'm,
6:16
I'm not joking, the, the whole board table was covered with stacks of papers.
6:20
And I'm like, what is all this? And she's going, well, from my research, these
6:24
are all the bits of paper that I have to fill out, right? All the different
6:27
things I've got to do to get my business started. One of them was a business
6:31
plan, one of them— I mean, and all of these different things going on. And I
6:35
said, do you mind if I help you? She said, no, what are you going to do? I'm
6:39
going to make your job really easy. And I went and got the trash can and I
6:43
scooped all the bits of paper into the trash can. I said, right, now we can
6:47
start to talk. Because I think there's so much stuff you can get bogged down
6:51
with. Right, with business plans and those ideas. Just start with standing on
6:54
the sidelines of a football pitch and just have a crazy idea and see where it
6:58
goes.
7:03
Yeah, and it, and it really was. I mean, I think, I suppose the things were,
7:07
well, can we, can we get something made and how, you know, where do we go? But I
7:11
think when you have a question, it's very easy to get an answer nowadays. Like,
7:16
if you've got a network, you can reach out to people and get an answer. So like
7:20
Shopify, okay, so 'Can we make a product?' 'Okay, probably needs— what material
7:25
does it need to be?' Find a manufacturer. Started speaking, like, just exactly
7:29
what you've said. Started having conversations. 'Okay, what sort of price point
7:33
is it going to be?' 'So, are parents going to buy it?' Started talking to
7:38
parents on the sidelines every time the game stopped because a kid's shoelaces
7:42
come undone and the ref or the parent or the coach would reattach them. We're
7:47
like, would you buy something that would stop this from happening? Yeah. Okay,
7:51
brilliant. Okay, market research, tick, done. That's, that's that job done. Will
7:55
the kids wear it? Started, you know, my boys were young. Would you wear this?
8:00
Yes, Mum, we would wear it. Next kid, would you? If we could find you a product
8:04
that stops this? Yeah. Okay, brilliant. So there's the market research element
8:09
of it done. And it was quite honestly, it was very much like that. And then the
8:13
rest just kind of comes naturally, you know, sort of snowballs. Yeah, done for a
8:17
bit of fun, really.
8:22
Yeah, yeah.
8:23
It was never, it was never done like, oh, we're going to create this product and
8:28
it's, you know, gonna go global and it's gonna change lives. It was literally,
8:33
there's a problem, here's a solution, and let's, let's just take that to market.
8:38
It's brilliant, isn't it? And that's how the best products are made. You just
8:41
go, well, here's a problem, how do I figure out a solution? Um, uh, question,
8:44
just so I can, uh, square the circle. Uh, the, the contract cleaning company, is
8:47
that still going?
8:51
No, no. Um, so when my— so my boys are 18 and 20 now, but when they came along,
8:56
um, newborn babies and 60 team members, quite a lot of problems on your plate on
9:01
a Monday morning. And I've— it's really funny because people sort of say what
9:07
went wrong. You know, when people go, if, if you love what you do, it doesn't
9:12
feel like work.
9:18
It's, it's just that cliché.
9:20
But I absolutely dreaded a Monday morning, and I realized that although the
9:25
contract cleaning company was successful, it just didn't light me up. And it's
9:29
really funny because I— it's on reflection that I know that now. It's, it's on
9:34
reflection when I absolutely love the business that I've got now that actually I
9:38
didn't really love that so much. So local authority contract, we lost that at
9:43
the end of a tender process. So that was a really kind of big lucrative
9:47
contract. So that kind of started me thinking, we haven't got that one anymore,
9:52
do I really want all the others? So some of my team members actually took on
9:56
some of the contracts themselves and became their own, had their own independent
10:01
businesses, sort of one and two man bands, which was really great. And then the
10:05
rest of it just just, uh, yeah, we sold those contracts and the rest kind of
10:10
ended.
10:15
So then Laceeze comes along. Yeah, right. And, um, it's obviously been going
10:19
around a while, um, if your kids started young and they're now in their 18s and
10:23
20s.
10:26
Yeah.
10:28
So just— we'll get into the journey, but we've got the start point. Where are
10:31
things at the moment for you in terms of the business?
10:35
We are Um, so in terms of business, I originally— the business was a little bit
10:41
of a sideline hobby business. Um, like I said, nobody really expected it to kind
10:47
of blow up. And I had a co-founder who exited in '22, November 2022, is when he
10:53
left. And it was at that point I kind of thought, well, shall I see where I can
10:59
take this? Like, yeah, it's either, you know, I'm on my own. Let's, let's just
11:05
see if I actually kind of put that full-time effort into it and treat it like a
11:10
proper business. So we then— well, we— me really started sort of pushing a lot
11:16
harder, new product lines, moving into the USA as well. So yeah, that's where
11:22
I'm at the moment, trying to crack that USA nut, which has been harder than I
11:28
would have anticipated.
11:35
Yes, and probably made harder with the tariffs, I would have thought.
11:38
Yeah, there's a, you know, a kind of, uh, landscape that moves on a daily basis.
11:44
But, um, really, really fortunate just to be in some sort of quite good networks
11:49
where we all kind of feel that pain together and solutions and problem solving.
11:54
But, but yeah, you, you have— you do have to sort of ask yourself, is it worth
12:00
it? Like, yeah, but there is like an amazing market there.
12:06
And, and a growing market too. Football is becoming a big thing, or soccer to
12:08
our American—
12:10
yeah, yeah. But also, um, like parent attitude, like what parents will spend on
12:15
their kids' sport in the US is quite mind-blowing. Like, yes. So my boys, when
12:19
they were like school holidays, they'd go and do like a, like a football camp,
12:24
probably 3 out of 5 days of a, you know, of a week. Holiday. And I don't know, I
12:28
think it costs like £20 a day or something. They'll spend $200 a day on their
12:33
kids' sport. Like, they think nothing of it, you know, just touring them around
12:37
the States. And they want the best for their kids in their sport. So to kind of
12:42
say to them, well, here's a sports accessory that makes your kid's life a lot
12:46
easier, they love it.
12:51
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So how long have you been trying to crack the
12:54
American nut?
12:59
Probably for about, like, if I was really pushing hard at it, for the last 12
13:05
months. Prior to that, we have had like Amazon.com listings, so we've had the
13:10
product in the States. But Amazon is a big part of our business. In the UK and
13:16
we sell on Amazon in the US, but our product sells from people knowing what it
13:22
is.
13:28
Yeah, it's a brand recognition thing.
13:30
And we— and, and I think that's— I was like, why chuck the PPC at the, the
13:35
Amazon listings? Like, why is it not growing? Why is it not growing? And it's
13:40
because we need the brand recognition. So that kind of, you know, campaign of
13:45
doing that has probably been for the last 12 months, and I've kind of— I've had
13:49
to sort of sit back and reflect, like, how do we do this in the UK? How do we
13:54
get parents and kids to know about us? Yeah. Um, and let's try and replicate
13:59
that if possible in the States.
14:04
How are you— I'm intrigued then, Emma, if I can ask, how, how are you doing
14:09
that? Because obviously, um, if you, if you sell a vacuum cleaner then people
14:14
know they need a vacuum cleaner, right? I'm kind of figuring that the mom at the
14:19
sideline can see the kids tying the shoelaces but kind of doesn't think twice
14:24
about, oh, you've just got to tie your shoelaces. It's not like it's an instant,
14:29
oh, I need laces. Do you see what I mean? It's like, how are you building that
14:34
solution awareness, as we'd like to call it?
14:39
And you've, you have sort of hit the nail on the head because we've got a
14:44
solution to a problem, but parents don't go looking for the solution. They don't
14:50
see, oh, we've tied his shoelaces 5 times this match, oh, there must be
14:55
something there. That's what we've built in the UK over the last 7, 8 years.
15:00
Yeah. But when we launched in the UK, like, we had zero marketing budget. It was
15:05
kind of like a couple of mums on the sidelines talking to people putting the
15:11
posts on social media. And then the— we started using, um, ambassadors. So we're
15:16
like, do you want a pair of bands? To somebody that's— yeah, you know, a parent
15:21
that might be, um, documenting their kids' football journey. And it was
15:27
relatively inexpensive to do that. You know, our product— our product now is
15:32
£9.99. I think when we launched it was £6. So we're able to just gift a pair and
15:37
in return we were getting them popping it on their socials and tagging us. Some
15:42
would tag us once, but some would tag us for, you know, months and months with
15:48
that one pair of bands. So the ambassador program that's evolved, that's still
15:53
very much part of our business in the UK. We run it on a really nice kind of
15:58
platform now, and every month there's new ambassador challenges and the ones
16:04
that work really hard with that, they earn points and they get more product. So
16:09
we've just decided that the way forward in the States is to replicate that
16:14
program. So it's a very manual task what we're doing at the moment, but we are
16:19
literally outreaching. I've got a VA that spends every day going, going in,
16:25
looking at our followers, the American ones. Who are they following? Oh, there's
16:30
another child-parent-run account. Let's reach out to them. Do they want to try
16:35
the product? And from that, we're just growing our ambassador program.
16:41
It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I, again, you're dealing with kids,
16:44
aren't you? So it's in my head, ambassador program, you're kind of like, okay,
16:48
well, I'm just gonna go find 100 people on Instagram and I'll go market to them,
16:51
um, to join the program. But of course, these are kids, so then there's all
16:55
kinds of issues associated with that, right? Because your ambassadors are
16:58
teenagers, I'm assuming, who are playing football on a Sunday.
17:02
Yeah, it's younger children. However, There's— and I think very much in the USA,
17:07
there's a massive trend for parents to have a, um, like a soccer Instagram
17:12
account. Parents in the States are thinking about the next step for their
17:17
children, and the next step for their children is usually going to uni and
17:22
getting a soccer scholarship. So there's nothing to document their kids' journey
17:27
from, right? 7 years of age.
17:33
Um, such is the world in which we live now.
17:36
Yeah, but the issue that we do have is that it's, it's kids and it's kids'
17:40
accounts. And in the UK, we're like talking about potential social media bans.
17:45
So we have to make sure as a brand that we're really, really responsible and
17:50
we're not exploiting children in any way, and that the accounts that we are
17:55
sending bans to are the parent accounts or they're ones that are literally
18:00
flagged parent-run account. It's just, it's sharing the journey of their child.
18:05
So yeah, we, we have to be super, super careful.
18:10
It's getting— yeah, no doubt.
18:13
So the— so with this week, we had a, a TikTok post and there was a violation on
18:18
that, and it literally was our product being worn on a pitch, and TikTok said
18:23
you're exploiting, um, children and I don't know if anybody that's listening has
18:27
had any experience of TikTok violations, but you can appeal that, and within
18:32
about 15 seconds of submitting an appeal, it's appeal rejected. So, um, it's
18:37
just bots that are, uh, yeah, reading that. So yeah, it's, it's one of the
18:41
challenges, but I, I feel like from a brand's perspective, you know, I'm a
18:46
parent, we're, you know, the ethos is the community that we've got behind the
18:51
brand, so we just had to careful.
18:55
Yeah, that's fair, it's fair. I mean, we've all got boundaries which we have to
18:59
play in, right? And it's just learning to, to play in those well. So you've got
19:02
your ambassador program. What else? I mean, you've mentioned this idea of
19:05
community a couple of times. Are you quite active in trying to build a
19:08
community, and how are you doing that?
19:11
Yeah, I think so. The grassroots community is sort of first and foremost. That,
19:17
that's— we built the product, we were sideline parents at the grassroots level,
19:22
you know, and we've always supported that. That's kind of like really like at
19:27
the heart of what we do. Every pair of Laceeze bands that get sold in the UK via
19:33
our website, we donate back to grassroots causes. So at the moment, all these
19:38
clubs and teams, they're fundraising for next season. They need equipment, they
19:44
need kits. We're donating to them, whether that's like raffle prizes or
19:49
sometimes there's GoFundMes that they need because something thinks horrendous
19:54
has happened. They've had a pitch vandalized or something. So that part of the
20:00
brand is super important for me. Like, even my boys are all grown up now, but
20:05
some of our fondest memories are kind of with the teams that we met along the
20:11
way in the journey and the parents and what sport did for them, team sport. You
20:16
know, as they've grown into young adults has been phenomenal. So the Grassroots
20:21
will always, always be like this big family, um, and that's what we always want
20:27
to— like, we want that to come through in what we tell people in The Voice. So
20:32
community, family, it's just one— it's one big piece of Laceeze really. And
20:38
obviously as the, as the brand grows, the, the more we can do to help. So, um,
20:43
it's It's really important. Like, grassroots is so underfunded, and, um, you
20:48
know, it— you sort of got this massive sort of pyramid, the hierarchy, the
20:54
Premier League at the top, and as it filters down, there's so little that goes
20:59
to— yeah, and, and grassroots is the heart, you know. Your professional teams
21:04
and the academies, it's such a tiny, tiny percentage. Yeah, you know, there's
21:10
millions of kids out there kicking a ball on a Saturday and Sunday.
21:15
Yeah, and it's great to see, actually. I, I, I do. It's, um, it's curious, isn't
21:20
it? I, I— how do you find then this idea of building community? I mean, how do
21:25
you— are you active on social media? Are you kind of in, uh, email a lot? How
21:30
are you staying connected with people, I guess, is a question.
21:35
Yeah, I mean, as active as I can be on social media, probably in the last 2 or 3
21:40
years. When I launched Laceeze, this whole founder-led, you know, founder-led
21:44
business wasn't really a thing. And then it's become really trendy, hasn't it?
21:49
Like, yeah, founder needs to be there. But I have put myself forward, but now a
21:53
lot more. I'm like, I thought I was like cringed. I wouldn't have even wanted to
21:58
pick up my phone and like, I don't care now. It's like, if I, if I do it, it
22:02
doesn't matter if I'm in my dog walking clothes or if I've got myself, you know,
22:07
semi-presentable. But I do like to share that, kind of let people know it's me
22:12
and I'm a mom. And even though the boys are a bit older, you know, people need
22:16
to know that there's a kind of a face behind— it's not just this brand, we're
22:21
not just another fancy sports— sportswear brand. There's, there's a story behind
22:25
everything that we do. Like, every product that we've brought out since Laceeze,
22:30
it's there's a reason behind it. And you could put that on the packaging, but
22:34
nobody's going to read that. So you have to put yourself out there to tell that
22:39
story. Yeah. And we're in the emails, you know, every Sunday there's a little,
22:44
like, a little grassroots roundup email that goes out. There's a hero in there,
22:48
and that's somebody that has, you know, lit us up, that we've seen on our
22:53
socials, whether it's they, you know, they've won a trophy, or they've, you
22:57
know, they've had their little brother on the sidelines and they've let him have
23:02
a kick around. There's always something like— it's one of these lovely
23:06
heartwarming grassroots stories, and we get them weekly, and then we share those
23:11
out.
23:16
Yeah. So are you yourself on Instagram every day posting stuff, or are you once,
23:19
twice a week? What's your kind of—
23:22
yeah, personally on Instagram, no, a couple of times a week really.
23:26
Um, and what kind of things have you found work well for you? Because I'm
23:30
thinking, you know, people running their own ecommerce businesses are in the
23:34
same similar boat listening to this, and I'm, I'm kind of curious what you've
23:38
discovered as doing the founder-led brand on Instagram that, that kind of works.
23:42
Just like, tell the truth, okay? And I think also we all love to share the wins,
23:47
and if you've got an award and you're at those sort of like fancy events, that's
23:52
great because at that point you look great. But actually when people are in the—
23:57
to see you in the thick of it. And let's be honest, not every day things do not
24:01
go as well as they should do. Share that because people can connect that, like,
24:06
oh, okay, you are having— you know, I'm not a person that will sit there and do
24:11
like the, the bawling my eyes out and go on to camera. And I know some people do
24:16
it, and like, that's for them, and that's absolutely fine. I won't do that, but
24:21
I will be really honest as well. It's like We've had a really great month,
24:25
brilliant, let's, let's share that. But also if we've had something that's gone
24:30
a bit tits up or a container's like stuck somewhere or a ship's been delayed,
24:35
I'll share that as well because that's truly the reality of building a brand.
24:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting one because I mean, this month, um, we've
24:44
had one of our— on one of our sites, we've had one of our best months ever,
24:48
right? And It started, I mean, there's a number of reasons why sales are going
24:53
up quite dramatically and I, I won't bore you with all of them, but one of them
24:57
which intrigues me is the message we sent out to customers saying, by the way,
25:01
the favorite product which we have, there's been some stock issues and here's
25:05
what's happened and here's why there's a bit of an issue. And so we know you
25:09
order 6, but we're only going to send you 1 and we'll send you the other 5 when
25:13
the stock comes back in. Right? And it'll be at our expense. We'll pay the extra
25:17
shipping. And so in that way, everyone's gonna get, you know, at least a month's
25:22
supply of this product. And we anticipate this is gonna be sorted out in a
25:26
couple of months. So it should all be a couple of weeks. So it should all be
25:30
fine. And we were just really honest about that. And we were just telling the
25:34
community. Sales of that product just went mental. And you're just like, I'm
25:38
like, what is going on? It's just really interesting, isn't it? How people
25:42
respond to the honesty and people like this. And the customer service have gone,
25:47
people have been lovely. They've been absolutely lovely, really supportive of
25:51
what's going on because we just, we have the community, we have that open
25:55
conversation and the honest conversation and we tell it in a good way,
25:59
obviously. But the, yeah, I just thought it was intriguing that we've sold more
26:03
of that product now than we ever have.
26:07
Yeah, that's quite curious. That kind of says something about human nature to a
26:13
certain extent. But I do think like having conversation with your customer is
26:18
beyond important. And when things are going wrong, it's even more important,
26:23
like tenfold. Also, um, you know, just people being able to know when
26:29
something's gonna come. As soon as somebody hasn't got something, it just— I
26:34
don't know, it just creates all these emotions. And I think as brands, we're
26:39
constantly opposing Amazon Prime, like people have become very, very impatient.
26:44
They can order something whilst they're watching, eating their dinner or
26:50
watching the television and it's ordered. And if it's done on Amazon, it's
26:55
probably going to be on their doorstep the next day. And, you know, as brands,
27:00
when we're kind of doing that DTC element, we can't quite get to prime levels,
27:06
you know, we dispatch 6 days a week. But I think it's when it goes wrong or
27:11
something's late, I, I feel like if you can respond very, very quickly, appease
27:16
that person, it's when they're having to send an email or make a phone call and
27:22
then they don't get a response very quickly and have to go again. That is where
27:27
the, the problems start arising.
27:32
I agree. I think actually I don't mind when things start going wrong because I
27:37
think you can win that person for life depending on how well you treat them when
27:41
it's going wrong, right? And I think some of our most loyal customers have had
27:45
issues with us at some point. Yeah. It's just how we've responded to them in
27:49
that moment.
27:54
Yeah. So for me, I ordered something last week. I'm not gonna name the brand.
27:59
They're doing very well, but it's a cleaning product and it was arriving with
28:05
Evri, so we don't need to say too much more.
28:10
Yeah, everything that can go wrong.
28:14
Yeah, yeah, it came late, but I'd actually run out of this product. I really did
28:19
kind of want it, and it was supposed to come, then it was delayed, and then I
28:23
sat there and it's like, your parcel has arrived. I was like, No, uh, no, it
28:27
hasn't. And we've got cameras, and I looked in all the kind of potential hiding
28:31
places. There was no sign. And then the photograph that was on the tracking site
28:35
was just like, like a, just a blank thing, like colored, like taking a picture
28:39
of a box or something. Yeah. And I contacted the brand, and they were like, oh,
28:44
really? Sorry, you need to contact the courier. And I was like, well, that's—
28:48
yeah, that should be your responsibility.
28:52
Yeah.
28:53
So then the courier came, said, actually, yeah, we're aware it hasn't arrived.
28:57
The GPS shows that the driver was somewhere else. So they came back, they were
29:02
quite quite honest with me. And then the brand asked me to fill out— fill out a
29:07
form. That's why I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no! But actually when these things
29:11
happen I'm like okay this is everything I am not going to do. Yeah. This brand
29:16
has blown up a lot in the last few years and I just feel like they probably need
29:21
to kind of look at some of their comms and take it back to what it was a couple
29:26
of years before, because I think we can all be at risk if we're growing and
29:30
growing and growing. But ultimately, you just, you have to remember what you,
29:35
what you gave when you started out. And, you know, when you start out, every
29:40
customer's like, wow, thank you so much for buying my product, thank you for
29:44
putting that on your feet, or, you know, wearing my jumper or whatever it is.
29:49
Just try and remember that feeling. Like that, that feeling of like how much you
29:54
appreciated that that person spent their money to buy your product and don't
29:59
ever, ever let that go. And for us, that community piece is all about that. So
30:03
sometimes I'll go and like watch them kind of pack orders and I'll do a few
30:08
myself because I remember that feeling of like packing my first order and just
30:13
kind of having all that gratitude in with that as you put that, that package
30:17
into, you know, the mail sack, just that level of thanks and gratitude that
30:22
somebody has, you know, seen your product, something that lived in my mind once,
30:27
it's now a physical thing and now somebody wants to buy it.
30:32
Like, that's cool. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. I bought some shoes from, I
30:36
don't mind naming the brands actually, Vivobarefoot, because it's a true story
30:40
and I'm a big fan of Vivobarefoot. I really like their shoes, but they're not
30:44
cheap. And I ordered 4 pairs of shoes from them recently, only 3 turned up. And
30:48
so I emailed them going, where's the 4th one? I've emailed them twice and
30:52
there's been no response. Now this is really unusual from a company that has
30:56
exceptional— I think they have exceptional customer service, Vivo. And, um, I
31:00
think therefore something has happened because I've had really good customer
31:05
service with them in the past. For them to not even respond to any of my emails
31:09
is quite, is quite unusual. Um, But you're starting now to get that distaste in
31:13
your mouth, aren't you? You're kind of going, this is— I'm starting to get a
31:17
little bit annoyed now.
31:21
Yeah, by the second email, that definitely starts to—
31:25
yeah. Yeah. And it's a bit odd. And so now I've got to go to the next level. And
31:29
you just kind of think, I'm a brand advocate on every level. I'm what you would
31:33
call a brand advocate for those shoes. But I think it's easy to take that for
31:37
granted when you're the brand. And going out of your way to solve problems for
31:41
customers, I think, is one of the secret marketing tools that no one really
31:46
talks about. It's like, how do you do better marketing? Go and find everyone
31:50
that's got a problem with you right now and solve it in an exceptional way. And
31:54
you'll be amazed what that will do to your business in the next 6 to 12 months,
31:58
right?
32:03
Yeah. Yeah. I had one. We had a complaint that somebody had written a comment on
32:08
Facebook and they were upset by something, and I thought, how did— how— well,
32:13
for one, how have we missed that comment? Because we're normally pretty hot on
32:18
tracking everything. But I just said to them, can you send me a DM? So I got
32:23
them into the DMs, and I was like, so sorry that— that for one, we've— we've
32:28
seen this— this comment. Two, we haven't seen any communication from you on any
32:33
other platform. And they hadn't. They— they literally had not reached out to us.
32:38
Our ad had popped up and they decided that was the moment to write. Yeah, yeah.
32:43
I would like to solve this for you. I would like to rectify the way you feel
32:48
about us. So sent them some product, and 2 weeks later they said, how can we
32:53
review you as a brand? Like, where can we send it? Where's the best place to put
32:58
a review? That person was blown away that we actually— yeah, I'm to do it. So
33:03
yeah, I think actually happy customers are what we want, but take the kind of
33:08
more negative, unhappy ones and see what you can do to resolve that. Because
33:13
let's be honest, they're the ones that shout the loudest.
33:19
They are. And actually, they're the ones that are telling you what the problem
33:22
is. Yeah. So, and you can— the ones that are silent, they're, they're really
33:25
hard to crack because you don't know what the problem is, right? It's the ones
33:28
where they're going, oh, this was rubbish. And you go, right, well, at least I
33:31
know now. Can I do something about that? Yes or no?
33:34
Yeah.
33:34
This is not a blame game. This is not me going, well, you didn't really say
33:39
that, did you? This is me going, right, at least I know now. What can I do to
33:43
resolve this here? Do you do this thing, Emma, where I'm a bugger for it?
33:47
Whenever I order something off the web now, I like to shop on other people's
33:51
websites, not just Amazon. I like to go and look at other people's websites
33:56
where I'm buying that sort of product. I will screen record me using that
34:00
website and all that. I like that bit. That bit's not great. Do you know what I
34:04
mean? There's something about this website that's working well. Something, what
34:08
can I name? And is there something I could learn? And then I see the emails and
34:12
I analyze the emails and I get the parcel. And before I get the parcel, I take a
34:17
photo of the box. What was the box like? Which courier did they use? Do you know
34:21
what I mean? And I do this with all my competitors all the time. And I open the
34:25
box. What's the inside of the box? How do I feel right now? And I'm doing this
34:29
constant checklist. Of my emotional and mental process whenever I buy something
34:34
online because I'm like, this is what my customers are doing and this is— I
34:38
mean, I've got to shop, so I guess it's free market research for me, right?
34:42
Yeah. Okay. I don't do the screen recording bit, but I have got a folder in my
34:47
emails where I put— so when I get email marketing from other companies, I'm
34:52
like, inspirational emails. So I do, I actually do. Love. There's some like
34:57
Harry's Razors are—
35:02
they do really well.
35:04
Epic. Yeah. And I do think like, this is not plagiarism. This is that email was
35:08
cool. Like, come on, guys, we get thousands of emails. So if there is one that
35:12
like you, that really piques your attention, there's definitely something in
35:17
that. And that's what I do. I look at that. Why did that not go straight to the
35:21
delete box? Why did I take the time to read that? What is it? So I really
35:26
analyze things like that. Yeah. The service from kind of the start to finish on
35:30
the website, I am quite keen on. And there are times I find myself like, oh,
35:35
should I let them know? Like, should I? And if it's quite a small brand, like
35:39
sometimes I've had like gone to like error pages on websites. I'm like, I just
35:43
think you should know this link isn't working. This has got an error page. And
35:48
I'm like, I just want you to know this and you might think this is really weird,
35:52
but I'm just telling you it because I've got a brand myself. So I would like to
35:57
know if there was a broken link on my website. So they probably think I'm
36:01
completely flipping bonkers. But yeah, it's fine. And then again, yeah, like
36:06
shipping, I think, yeah, all of those elements, that whole journey is like, it's
36:10
super important. Yeah. If things are great then, and I will try, I think, yeah,
36:15
I should put that into what I'm doing. And if they're really bad, I make sure
36:19
that that doesn't go into what I'm doing. But that we're aware of it. So yeah,
36:23
without the screen record bit.
36:28
No, that's fair play. I just find listening to you talk, I think they're great
36:33
learning opportunities, aren't they, for us as ecommerce founders? Let me ask
36:38
you, Emma, if I can. You've run this business for a while. It's doing well.
36:43
You're selling globally, trying to crack America. I love the, I love the story.
36:48
You know, my kids tying shoelaces, simple, elegant. Beautiful in many ways.
36:53
What's one thing, looking back on the story, where you kind of go, I wish I knew
36:58
this sooner? Like, this would have really helped me if someone had got alongside
37:03
me as an ecommerce owner and told me this. It would have— it would have saved
37:08
however much time, pain, anguish, agony.
37:13
Oh God, there's just so many things that come up. Like, every year there's
37:18
always something different, isn't there? Like, this year it's been tariffs and,
37:23
you know, just you think you've kind of got everything sussed and then it
37:27
changes. I suppose if I go like way back to the start. So we found a
37:32
manufacturer, started producing the product, and then we got to our first
37:37
Christmas and we realised we started to have some problems with the bands and
37:42
they were snapping. And it was whether they were being cut. And in the end, we
37:47
pulled— we literally pulled everything because the biggest risk for us was to
37:52
have product out there that kids were getting in stocking fillers at Christmas,
37:57
and then by the first week of January, they were snapping. Because your
38:01
reputation at that stage, if everybody goes, oh, they're terrible quality and
38:06
they snap really quickly, um, so I think that was a bit of a drama actually. And
38:11
then we went with a new manufacturer and we've had to learn a lot more about the
38:16
sort of the, the manufacturing process. And, you know, you think, oh, it's just
38:21
a rubber band. It's not. There's a lot more to it. You know, I'm actually— we're
38:26
creating a bit of a sort of behind-the-scenes video at the moment of how they're
38:31
made so that people can understand, like, it's not just a rubber band. Um, so
38:35
for us really, it's probably to have had that understanding earlier on would
38:40
have solved quite a lot of stressful nights during that period. But I also feel
38:45
like the fact that we, we took the decision to pull that product at Christmas is
38:50
when we were, you know, making the most sort of money. It was a— it's a great
38:55
stocking filler, um, to go, actually, no, it's not for sale, we're not selling
39:00
it, was probably the right thing to do, or as painful as it was at the time. Um,
39:05
because it probably saved our reputation. Yeah, the next year.
39:09
Yeah, it's a brave move. Yeah, I think pulling the products, isn't it?
39:15
Yeah, brave, sensible. Everything in your guts telling you to not do that
39:20
though. It's like, well, you know, let's just sell it, and if, you know, 10%
39:25
have issues, we could replace them for the customer. But I think we've already
39:30
just sort of said, what about the ones that don't tell you it's broken? Yeah,
39:35
that's a pile of rubbish, that product, you know. And but then go and tell
39:40
somebody else that. You just can't afford to have that happen, really.
39:44
No, no, it's an interesting— in— I mean, yeah, brave, and I think it's always
39:48
the right thing to do in many ways. Um, you, you know, it's interesting though
39:52
that that's where you've gone in terms of the manufacturing side of things. How
39:55
do you— I mean, you've learned a lot over the years. Are you Are you with the
39:59
same manufacturer now?
40:04
So after that incident, we went with another manufacturer, and I have been with
40:08
them since, and they, they have just— they're brilliant.
40:12
How important is that relationship?
40:14
Oh, probably the most important relationship that we've had and that we've got
40:19
to date. You know, without them, we don't have the product. Now, we could get it
40:24
made elsewhere, and I have done exercises over the years of just kind of putting
40:28
it out to other manufacturers, just to, one, to check if the process is still as
40:33
it is, and two, you know, we're getting the best prices. But we are. And yeah,
40:38
they're just— they're— the thing with them is that they have a factory in the UK
40:42
and they have a factory in China. Our products are made in China, but the, the
40:47
people that we're having a relationship with are in the UK continuously going
40:52
over to the factory. So I just feel like we've got that kind of, um, pick up the
40:56
telephone, just have a chat, they're on our time zone, you know, everything
41:01
else. So yeah, that, that if you were to kind of like rank all of the
41:06
relationships that we've got within the business, that, that's probably right up
41:10
there.
41:15
That's one of the most important ones. Yeah. Um, let me, uh, just a few rapid
41:18
questions if I can. What platform do you use? Shopify. Do you, a fan? I mean,
41:22
you're still on it, I assume so.
41:26
Sorry?
41:27
Are you a fan of Shopify?
41:28
Yes, I am. Yeah. It went down yesterday.
41:31
Did you know that? It did.
41:32
Yeah, I did.
41:33
Yeah. We, uh, yeah, yeah, no, it's normally pretty good. We have something
41:37
called the eCommerce Cohort. So it's just like this monthly group of ecommerce
41:40
founders. We all get together, shoot the breeze about ecom, and they're from all
41:44
over the world and it's great. Uh, And the WhatsApp group was going nuts
41:48
yesterday and just like, it's down, it's down, it's down, mine's down too.
41:52
Where's your— and trying to figure out what was going on.
41:55
Yeah, no, I was in a kind of probably similar WhatsApp group. And when somebody
41:58
put Gymshark down, I was like, oh God, this is a big problem.
42:02
Yeah, yeah. Just go check the big boy. Yeah, they're all down.
42:05
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
42:07
Yeah, yeah. No, that's fair play. What do you use for your email marketing?
42:12
Klaviyo.
42:13
A fan?
42:16
Um, ish. Yeah. I mean, can you be a great fan of, you know, email? They always
42:21
seem to be more expensive than, than everybody else. And I've looked at some of
42:25
the other sort of competitor ones, and I was in a dinner with Mailchimp, and I
42:29
was like, tell me this— to the guys from Mailchimp, I was like, tell me the reason
42:33
why I should move from Klaviyo to Mailchimp. Like, give, give me like 'Come on,
42:38
let's go for it.' They couldn't tell me.
42:43
Oh dear. That's not a good sign, is it? Yeah, that's not a good sign. But
42:47
fascinating that they couldn't do that. What's a piece of tech that you're
42:52
really enjoying at the moment?
42:57
Oh, this is what everyone's going to say, but it's kind of trying to streamline
43:02
processes with my Claude Cowork friend. That's kind of what everybody is saying.
43:07
And I sort of thought when the whole like AI blew up, I was like, do I need to
43:12
like, do I need to be looking at this? And then there was just so much noise.
43:17
It's like, yeah, probably should actually pay attention to this. So, you know,
43:22
ChatGPT just sort of kind of sat there and helped with a lot. And then I was at
43:27
an event and somebody said, oh, well, I'm using Claude for this and Claude for
43:32
that. And I was like, okay. Need to kind of start introducing Claude into my
43:37
life as well. But I now, I worry that I've been just kind of that sort of not an
43:42
early adopter, shall we put it that way? And just so now it's kind of like,
43:47
actually, how can I do this and actually really use it to help improve what
43:52
we're doing within the business rather than just, you know, write me an email,
43:57
that type of, uh, yeah, rather than fiddle.
44:02
How can it be? Yeah, yeah, important to us as a business. It's really— I, yeah,
44:07
I mean, we're, we're big fans of Claude Code. We have a quite a complex Claude
44:12
system in our office now that's wired, um, so everybody pulls the documents from
44:16
the same repo. Um, so all our brand voice, for example, is all in the same
44:21
filing system that everyone connects to. And whenever someone makes changes to
44:26
it, it's on everyone's machine. And so you can go, oh, Laura made these changes.
44:30
What did she do? And so you can understand what's going on. And it means
44:35
handovers are really clean and slick. So my Claude talks to Jen's Claude and it
44:40
just— it's bonkers. But you're right. I think you go from a place of fiddling to
44:44
going, actually, what can it do really?
44:50
Yeah.
44:51
How can this really help me with the business? What's the dream? Where are we
44:55
going in the next few years, Emma? What's the plan?
45:00
What is the dream? So, continue cracking the US. I've got sort of brand
45:04
collaboration, which I can't give the name, but there is a very big brand that's
45:09
collaborating with us, and I just can't wait for that. Actually, it's taking
45:14
forever for it to come to fruition, but when it does, and we're getting close,
45:18
I'm really excited. One, because it's a collaboration where if you talk about
45:23
sort of like collabs, like who do you want to collab with? And, you know, sports
45:28
brand, you go, what do you want to do with Nike or Adidas? This is like, this
45:32
is, it's not a sports brand. It's, it's a brand that shares the same brand
45:37
values as us. Right.
45:42
And that's a better choice. Yeah.
45:43
And it's, it's so, it's really interesting how it's come about. Um, where we go
45:48
with it is really, really exciting. So That's, that's going to be great. And
45:52
then, yeah, who knows? Just keep, keep building it, building it. I love it. I
45:57
love what I do. It kind of lights me up. The boys aren't on the sidelines so
46:02
much anymore. Still, I don't know. I think because I've got such wonderful warm
46:06
memories of that, every time I see a post and something's exciting or somebody's
46:11
done something lovely and they're sharing that with us, I just get that lovely
46:15
warm fuzzy feeling. So yeah, whilst I've got that, that feeling, we keep going.
46:20
That's brilliant, that's brilliant. Well, we've got the warm fuzzy feeling, we
46:24
keep going. Uh, it's such beautiful business advice right there. Uh, Emma,
46:27
listen, we've got to that stage of the show where I'm going to ask you for a
46:31
question for me. This is where I get a question from you, uh, and I will go away
46:35
and answer it on social media. So Emma, what's your question for me?
46:39
Okay, so I was thinking about this. So I haven't got the warm fuzzy feeling
46:42
anymore and I'm handing my brand to you What is the first thing you would do
46:45
with it, Matt?
46:48
Okay, this is such a good question. If you want to know how I'm going to answer
46:52
that question, uh, what would I do to Emma's business, uh, then come follow me
46:56
on social media. I will gladly tell you, uh, what I would do. Emma, listen, I
46:59
genuinely have loved this conversation. How do people find you? How do they
47:03
connect with you? How do they find out more about Laceeze? Where do we go? What do
47:07
we do? And all of that good stuff.
47:11
Okey-dokey. So if you want to find me personally, I'm really active on LinkedIn.
47:15
So it's Emma Burke on LinkedIn. And if you want to find about the product, the
47:19
brand, it's Laceeze, um, and we're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok now as well. So
47:24
you can find us there.
47:29
Fantastic. We will of course link to Emma's LinkedIn and to the Laceeze website and
47:32
all of that good stuff in the show notes. So just scroll down on your podcast
47:36
app, look in the YouTube description, uh, if you're watching this on YouTube,
47:40
and they should be there. Of course, you'll also find them on the website
47:43
ecommercepodcast.net. Just go find this episode, click the links to your heart's
47:47
content. But Emma, thank you so much for being on the show. Genuinely love the
47:51
conversation.
47:54
Brilliant. No, thank you very much. It's been great.
47:56
It's been really good hearing what you guys are up to. And I see nothing but
47:59
good things in your future, subject to US tariffs, of course, with the US
48:02
market.
48:05
Things tend to test us.
48:08
Yeah, yeah, they really do. But no, it's been great. Thank you so much. Loved
48:11
it.
48:13
Super, thank you.
48:15
No, no, it's been great, isn't it? There you go, another episode. Thank you so
48:19
much for joining us on the eCommerce Podcast this week. It's been great. Make
48:23
sure you like and subscribe and all of that good stuff. If you'd like to know
48:27
more about eCommerce Podcast, like I said, just go to ecommercepodcast.net, all
48:32
one word. And you can also find information there about the cohort group I
48:36
mentioned. If you'd like to come and join the cohort groups, you're more than
48:40
welcome. They're totally free. Come and hang out with other e-commercers. It'll
48:45
be great to see you in there. And of course, if you want to deep dive into our
48:49
AI solutions, that's also on the eCommerce Podcast website as well. All of that
48:53
said, let me stop the conversation. It's been great. It's been a great week.
48:58
I'll see you next time. Uh, my thanks again to Emma, but that's it from me.
49:02
That's it from Liverpool and from Bournemouth. Thank you so much for joining us.
49:06
Have a great week. Bye for now.