Latest / Shouty Brain / #11: Vicky Huttler
Transcript
- Trevor Holland: Hello, my name is Trevor Holland. Welcome to Shouty Brain, the podcast from a late diagnosed Audi HD man on a voyage of discovery to find my people in a neurotypical world. Hope you're doing very well this week. I'm doing alright, still knackered, but what's new? this week I'm joined by a very special guest by the name of Vicky Hutler. Now Vicky is herself late diagnosed Audi HD, but crucially she is a yoga teacher, a personal trainer and a fitness coach. So we talk a lot about yoga, about how she discovered it and the power of it and what turned her on to then becoming a yoga teacher herself. Quite a transformative kind of experience for her when she discovered it. Really, really interesting chat. We also talk about her diagnosis journey as we do with everybody, as well as emotional regulation and turning up for yourself and consistency, that kind of stuff. Really, really interesting chat. a little bit of fuckery with the audio as is often the case. Vicki blames herself, but I I refuse to do so. it it it changed about halfway through the episode, basically Vicky's earbuds ran out of battery. So the first half of the episode sounds a certain way, then the second half sounds another certain way. I was trying to marry the marry the levels as much as possible so there's a less of a kind of obvious transition between the two. Boring technical shit, but You'll notice it changes a little bit halfway through. Please bear with us. You know, we're dealing with technology here, it's not always perfect, but I warned you about that from the outset. I would very much appreciate it. If you enjoy this podcast, as always, please like, subscribe, comment, otherwise, interact with me. You can find me on shoutybrain.com where you'll find links to all of the stuff. Best if you follow me on Instagram, which is where I'm most active, and always appreciate it if you subscribe to the YouTube channel. I would also appreciate it if we followed Vicky. Now, Vicky on on Instagram is Vicara Coach. Now she also has a website which is victoria janefitness.co.uk where you can find out a lot more about the services that she provides. So please do check her out. Stick around to the end for a goodbye. Other than that, please enjoy. Welcome Vicky to Shouty Brain. Hey, how you doing Vicky? Vicky Huttler: Hello, happy to be here. I'm good, how are you? I'm glad to be here. Trevor Holland: Thank you. Yeah, I'm pretty good. Thank you. Doing a recording in the afternoon for the first time in a while. So I'm not sure the last couple of episodes I've done, I've done in the evening and I've realized I shouldn't be recording after a day's work. I'm learning that lesson pretty quickly. So you're getting a fresher version of me than the last couple of guests have got. So quite privileged you got there. Vicky Huttler: Okay. Trevor Holland: But yeah, thanks for joining today. Really appreciate it. Vicky Huttler: pleasure. Trevor Holland: So, you know, we... We got into contact with each other on Instagram, as is the case with a lot of the people that I meet for the podcast. And I was really interested in what you're all about. So from what I've gathered, you were diagnosed with autism at the age of 50, and you are a yoga practitioner and coach, Vicky Huttler: Yeah, so I've been a personal trainer really for about 10 years. I have always done fitness, so my whole life pretty much. got into fitness and yoga back in, probably I got into yoga probably just before the year 2000, so just before I got pregnant with my first daughter. And it's just been very ongoing since then. Obviously there was big gaps between when I had the children. and so on, but yeah, it's been just a lifelong passion really and it's really helped me through some dark times. So I guess I got to a point where I just wanted to kind of share that with people, with as many people as I could, because I know the impact it can have, not just to feel better physically, but mentally as well. And yeah, it just gives me so much joy to share it basically. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah, so tell me what drew you to yoga in the first place and what about it was so transformative for you. Vicky Huttler: Well initially it was probably like a lot of people do, you wait for something to be wrong with you before you look for a yoga class that's going to fix you I guess. I know certainly some people that come to me, they'll come to me with say a back injury or perhaps they're having a hard time mentally or it's a rough patch in their life and it's almost like people have this perception that yoga can fix that and in lots of ways it can do but it's about absorbing it into your life. before you wait until that kind of moment, that kind of breaking point, but you wait and you kind of just embody it and you try and make it a routine and a habit and that's what I did. I forgot what the question was, that's a good start isn't it, what did you ask me? Trevor Holland: No, no, it's fine. There's going to be plenty of that. Don't worry. It's what drew you to it. But then also what about it you found was, you know, what about it kind of changed your life. Vicky Huttler: The very first class changed my life. I went to a... I think it's still there actually. It's called the Iyengar Yoga Institute of South East London or something like that. It's on New Cross Road in South East London. And back in those days you couldn't really get a class. You couldn't find classes online because there was no internet. So you had to ring up from adverts in the newspaper and this was like Lute's newspaper. I don't know if you're old enough to remember that. Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Vicky Huttler: So I found this class and I remember phoning the lady that ran the class and on the phone we had a conversation, like you just wouldn't dream of doing that nowadays. She said, yeah, come along. So I went along, did my first class and it just blew me away. Like it was just straight away I just fell in love with it. know, it it just felt deeply profound and I can't really explain it. It was, it just changed my life. The fact that all these people came together. moving my body in ways that just felt incredible and the fact that you're of surrendering yourself to the practice and the class while you're there and I've never really experienced anything like it. I think people are almost, not spoiled, but you see so much of it now online and there's so many classes and studios everywhere. I think when you have to find, when you have to search that hard to find something and it has that much impact on you, it's huge and it kind of stayed with me and Yeah, I carried on going there until we moved and then I started finding classes back down where we moved to. And it's just been with me ever since. I absolutely love it. And I love teaching, I love practicing. Yeah, I'm passionate about it. Definitely. Trevor Holland: No, that's good. I mean, basically, everyone's heard of yoga. But I do, I think that people's actual kind of understanding of what it is, is mixed. So imagine I'm an alien, and I've never heard of this thing called yoga before, how would you actually describe what it is and what it does? Vicky Huttler: Well, okay, I would probably describe it as a way of life. So it's a way of living your life. It's become this thing on, especially on social media, Instagram, so it's become this thing where it's all about how a pose looks, the outfit that you're wearing, the incredible space that you're taking your photographs and your videos in. It's none of that. It's about how you live your life and how you choose to. move through life and how you treat other people, how you treat the world around you, living with kindness, compassion, living with, yeah, just empathy and sensitivity to all living things. That's what I believe. And I think the poses and the actual physical part of yoga is only a one part of it. There's so many other aspects and it's all part of the practice. Meditation, breath work, you've got the... rules for how you live, how you treat others. Yeah, it's a lifestyle. But lifestyle kind of almost belittles it. It's not a religion, it's a philosophy, I guess. Trevor Holland: The movements, the poses, excuse my ignorance, but I'm genuinely really interested. What's the theory behind what's achieved from positioning your body in a certain way? What does that do for you? Vicky Huttler: So the way that the poses originated was they were a way for people to, we're talking thousands of years ago, back in India, and they were originally a way to help people sit. So originally it was about meditation and it was just about being able to sit and meditate for hours on end. And obviously people would get uncomfortable sitting in the same position. So the yoga postures were a way for them to move their body, to get strong, to get flexible. to be able to sit comfortably in their meditation practice. That's how it originated from what I understand. So nowadays it's become very different. So the poses are to help with flexibility, with day-to-day movement, which is all part of it. But yeah, it's to help you move better, to feel better. It can release emotions within you. So if you've been, let's say you've been through a difficult life. your body holds onto a lot of emotions, a lot of energy, the body can store it in the tissues and practicing yoga will help to release that and to... yeah, help you become free, to become more free, more enlightened and yeah, guess that's ultimate aim of yoga, is to become enlightened. Yeah. Trevor Holland: That's great. So when, what changed from going to these yoga classes yourself to then wanting to become a coach, trainer yourself in that area? What made that move for you? Vicky Huttler: think just because the impact it's had on me, I knew I had to share it. It's like when something has a really big impact on you, you want to help other people to get to that point as well. In a nutshell, that's why I wanted to do it because I knew how much it has helped me get through some really difficult times. Keeping that practice, returning to my mat, rolling out the mat, practicing the poses, practicing the meditation. Just sitting with myself doesn't matter if you're in a bad mood, a good mood, however you're feeling. If you just roll your mat out, spend 10 minutes just moving, stretching, feeling good, everything's a little bit better afterwards. Everything's a little bit more manageable, a little bit less overwhelming. And yeah, I just want to help people see that's how yoga can help them. Does that make sense? So that's Trevor Holland: It does. It does. Vicky Huttler: totally why I do what I do. And it works. I get feedback that... people also blow away with yoga and that makes it all worthwhile when somebody messages me after a class or after a day retreat or whatever it is we've been doing and says that was incredible like you really like what you said at that point really resonated or I love that pose it made me feel like this or whatever it is whatever the feedback is it's just fantastic what makes it really worthwhile and Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: yeah Yeah, for sure. Trevor Holland: Now, you alluded to some dark times that kind of led you down the path of the kind of healing that you seem to get from yoga. What was going on? Do you mind telling me anything about what was going on in your life at the time? What were some of these dark times? If you don't mind telling me. Vicky Huttler: think it's probably not a unique experience to me. think anyone that's spent their lives undiagnosed, undiagnosed autistic, will have been through the same experiences, which is questioning who you are, why you are the way you are, why you're messing things up, why depression, anxiety, not fitting in, always blaming yourself. And it gets heavy after a while, you know, it weighs on you and I think there's times in your life when you can be robust and you can be resilient and bounce back from it and there's times in your life where it wears you down and it breaks you down and I guess it's those times. And that's just what's going in inside, you know, when you've got other difficult times going on in your life as well, you know, maybe you lose loved ones or all kinds of different phases and experiences in your life. Yeah, it makes it doubly hard for sure. And yeah, I mean, I don't think my experience is any different to probably a lot of undiagnosed autistic people. You don't know why you are Trevor Holland: Mm. Vicky Huttler: the way you are. Why is life so bloody hard? You know? Yeah. I know you Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Vicky Huttler: relate to that. You know, I think most people do, that have been diagnosed late in life. Which is why it's so great when you do finally get your diagnosis, you're like, shit, that's what it was. You know? Trevor Holland: Yeah, and yeah, I mean, in your case, you had you had 50 years of life without really knowing why he felt the way he did for me. It was 42 years. I think about it a lot. And I feel really, I still feel really sad for the, the, the person that just went through life so confused all the time. Blame myself for everything. You know, think that was one of the prevailing feelings was, was just this kind of horrible dichotomy between this kind of arrogance that I had because I felt like I was, I have these kind of delusions of grandeur sometimes and I felt, know, I'm special, I'm the smartest person in the room. I felt that way, but then at the same time, things I was doing did not reflect that. And so I thought, well, how can I feel that I'm this, but I'm demonstrating things that seem to suggest I'm as thick as pig shit? Or at least have no capacity to make decisions or why can't I do the stuff that everyone around me seems to be doing. So I'm beating myself up all the time because I feel like I'm disappointing myself. The expectations I'm setting for myself. It's just the constant kind of constant thinking that gets so tiring, isn't it? Vicky Huttler: That's it, that's it, the constant brain noise. The shouty brain. But it is, it's continual. Trevor Holland: It's just. Vicky Huttler: You think everyone's brain is like that, but you don't even... The thing is, when I grew up, there was no awareness about even how your brain worked. It just wasn't a thing that was ever talked about or acknowledged or... So, yeah, you've got this noise in your brain all the time and this constant overthinking, but you just... except that's the way life is and you think everyone's doing the same thing but you're just really shit at life. And I genuinely used to think that, you know, I to see how people would be getting on really well with certain things and nothing was troubling them. Breathing through life, being successful and yeah, just win-win-win and you look at yourself and go, what the hell, why do I find everything so difficult? You know? Yeah, it's tiring. Trevor Holland: Yeah, everything's difficult and I talked about it with Sam Munster in last week's episode about just how tired you end up being all the time. And it's the frustration that the things that are going on with you are completely invisible to everybody else, And even to the people that know you well, they'll... you know, they might notice something's not quite there but you don't outwardly seem like there's anything going on, right? You're just... you might be seen as someone who has someone who's a bit emotional or quite sensitive or dramatic maybe in some situations, really... highly strong in terms of particular kind, very particular about the things that you like and don't like. But outwardly, you're going through life. and no one can tell because they can't see inside your head. And what's going on inside your head is just so noisy. It's just nonstop. It never stops. Never, never, never, not for a second. The questions on top of other questions. So you're questioning every decision you make. You're questioning the intention of every single person who interacts with you. Everything has questions about it. It's like... And that's why I often talk about being autistic is like being an alien trying to work out how to be a person because everything's like you're having to analyze everything to try and learn what it means, but you're questioning the minutest detail about every single thing around you all the time and trying to work out what it's all about. It is the most tiring thing ever. But again, it's invisible. It's the duck on the pond flapping away under the water, but on the surface, you're just a person being a person. It's very difficult to explain to people who don't get it, isn't it? Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: So on that subject then, what led to your particular situation to you seeking out and getting the autism diagnosis at 50, what led to that for you? Vicky Huttler: Well, mean, probably the final straw was probably hitting menopause. You know, I mean, there's only still only now just research coming out about the impact of hormones and changes of estrogen levels and that kind of thing and the impact it has on our brain, on our ability to be resilient. And I think this is not just autism, it's ADHD as well. But, know, I I've got to a point where I just... couldn't cope. I knew my brain wasn't functioning. And it wasn't just a case of, I'm depressed or I'm anxious. My brain was not functioning. And actually, I think one of the first symptoms I had of menopause and one of the first reasons I went to the doctor was because I thought I was getting early onset dementia. And it was really fricking terrifying. Like, I genuinely thought, shit, if this is what I'm going through now. what am I going to be like in 10 years time, know, 20 years time. Trevor Holland: do you mean in terms of like brain fog and forgetfulness or is them? Yeah. Vicky Huttler: Totally. Yeah, totally. Like I would park my car somewhere, go shopping, come back out of the shops. Literally no recollection of parking the car. And I think unless you've been through that brain blank, literally you have no recollection of parking, no recollection of what happened. I was thinking, well, I could be in a different country one day and I forget Trevor Holland: you Vicky Huttler: where I'm staying or what. I don't know, all these, again, it's that brain. You're just going through all these panics. kind of scenario, worst case scenario, what would happen if I was stuck somewhere or I don't know, it was just terrifying and I knew that my brain wasn't functioning properly, there was definitely more meltdowns, bigger meltdowns, really uncontrollable and embarrassing meltdowns and I knew it wasn't normal. So I started researching a little bit about what goes on and I think through my life there's definitely been, obviously I've never fitted in again like most people who are undiagnosed through most of their lives with autism. But I think definitely I'd question whether maybe I am autistic a handful of times throughout my life, but because it was never, it's only really what would you say the last five years that it's been a common thing that you hear about or I wouldn't say before that it was much, there was much information available as freely as there is now. So at these different Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: points throughout my life. I've questioned it because I've maybe heard something about it or whatever, but there hasn't really been that much information. So when I started questioning when menopause was happening and what was going on with my brain and my life, I started scratching the surface online and actually realised, okay, so this could be me. And then I start scratching the surface a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper and then this is like, holy shit. Okay, of course it was. It's autism. It's so freaking obvious. It just makes total Trevor Holland: Mm. Vicky Huttler: sense. I can still remember the day I went to see a friend and I said to her, I'm having a really shit time at the moment. I've been doing some research on autism and I really do think I might be autistic. Does that sound ridiculous? And she went, yeah, it makes sense. And I was like, that's it. I'm going to go and try and get my diagnosis because it just... Everything fitted everything fitted I researched it just made complete sense And it still does and I know every autistic person that's like diagnosed goes through that same process I think we're all very very similar and I say this a lot on my social media You know, we're all we spent a whole life thinking we're very very different. Actually our experience is often very very similar of Trevor Holland: Mm. Vicky Huttler: being undiagnosed and then getting that diagnosis and the process of it all in the Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: journey and Yeah, that whole process of re-examining your whole life and going through that whole... It's a process, it's a lot. And it takes time and I'm still doing it now and that's, four years ago. So yeah. Trevor Holland: So before we go into the nuts and bolts of the emotional journey, which obviously I want to talk about, what was the actual... Because people's actual experience of the diagnostic process can be quite different. So how did it play out for you? So you went to your GP originally and asked for a referral, is that how it went? Vicky Huttler: Yeah, I went to the GP, asked for referral and I think I was just very, very lucky because I was given a form there and then in the waiting room. She said, can you just fill this in? If you give it back to me today, I can get it off and we'll get the process rolling really quickly. And I can't remember what the form is called. It's a famous one. Trevor Holland: AQ10. Vicky Huttler: yeah, but there was more numbers. It might have been an AQ30 or something. Maybe it was 10. Trevor Holland: I don't know. I did. Vicky Huttler: I don't know, but there was definitely more than 10 questions on it. But yeah, that. So I filled it in in the waiting room, gave it back and then nine months later I was assessed. So I think I was very lucky compared to people nowadays or four years later, I think it's a much longer process. So yeah, so I think I just kind of scraped through. But I knew anyway, Trevor Holland: It really is. It can be, So what was the... Vicky Huttler: I knew I was, you know, there was literally no doubt in my mind. just, yeah, I just wanted to get the... I think I wanted to get the diagnosis because I knew I wanted to talk about it because once the pennies Trevor Holland: Right. Vicky Huttler: had dropped, once I realised, yeah, it was autism all along, again, it's like the yoga, I just had this need to really want to share it with people and help anyone else in the same position that I'd been through, the hell that I'd been through. And I thought it would help with the validation to help, would, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: I kind of needed that for myself, you know. So once I got the diagnosis, yeah, I was really happy to... to talk about it openly. Trevor Holland: What was the assessment like for you? What was your experience of it? Vicky Huttler: really difficult really difficult it Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: was online and I find that really difficult anyway the psychiatrist that assessed me was on this very weird background he had like a really weird green screen background and that was all I could fixate on was he looked like he was floating it was just so weird really serious one of the most serious moments of my life but all I could fixate on was visually how weird experience it was and I was just so distracted. But we got through it and it was very long and then we took a break and he called my mum halfway through the assessment, had a chat with her and obviously they want to know all about your childhood, how you grew up, what your habits were as a child, how you played, your friendship groups, all this kind of stuff, which I think is really important, it's very relevant. And then he came back to me to close the assessment. So I think all in all it was about two or three hours. So it was quite intensive. And then he told me there, then, yes, you have ASD, and I'd like to refer you for an ADHD assessment as well. So that's what he did. Trevor Holland: and had ADHD occurred to you before that conversation. Vicky Huttler: No, no it hasn't. But again, once he'd said that I was like, shit, yeah. Because most of them cross over, don't they? Most autism ADHD assessments will cross over. So it's quite rare I think that somebody's won or the other, from what I understand. Yeah. Trevor Holland: There is lot of a crossover, yeah, certainly. Did he say anything in particular to explain what it was that made him think that you would benefit from the ADHD assessment as well? Vicky Huttler: didn't really stay specifically from what I can remember. Trevor Holland: Okay. Vicky Huttler: I think probably the fact that I was fidgeting around, the fact that I think he probably could tell, I don't know. I don't know. To be honest, I was so pleased to get off the call because it had been so long and so like, I just wanted to get away. So I didn't kind of stop to ask any questions about that. I just went, yeah, that Trevor Holland: No, that's... Vicky Huttler: makes sense to me. So yeah. Trevor Holland: So what was that initial feeling then? you're told, yep, you've got ASD at the age of 50, you've had this your whole life and I'm telling you now at 50 that you've got it. What was the, that initial feeling? Do you remember? Vicky Huttler: It was just like, yeah, I fucking knew it. You know, like I didn't need it to know, I knew already. But yeah, I was just like, thank God for that. Thank God I know. And again, this relief, this sense of relief is quite common sensation, isn't it? People feel that sense of relief once they have their diagnosis, which has always really interested me because I think it's quite unusual, quite a... It's quite specific to autism and ADHD, would you say? Being relieved at a diagnosis? Trevor Holland: Yeah, you're right, actually. I've never really thought about it like that. But yeah, you're right. Vicky Huttler: Most diagnoses it's bad, they're telling you there's something wrong with you but it's really common. think most people that are late diagnosed with autism or ADHD it's like, thank God, it's only that. It's not that I'm a massive idiot and I've messed up my whole life. It wasn't just because I wasn't trying hard enough, it was because there's a reason for it. that is out of my control, you know, it's not something I can control. Yeah, I just felt massively relieved and then the processing really, really began once I had that diagnosis. It was just like, wow, okay, so now we start to revisit school years and university years and relationships and jobs and situations and this meltdown and that meltdown and again, it's that brain that just doesn't want to stop, you know, you're kind of... reprocessing, you're getting everything out of your brain, looking at it now with your new diagnosis and then putting it back in your brain in the right place with the right answers to it. Does that make sense? So Trevor Holland: Yeah. Yeah. Vicky Huttler: yeah, was a lot and I'm still processing it four years later. And I thought it was interesting actually, you had another guest on who was also late diagnosed, Lisa, and she was diagnosed what, a month before she came on and she's very open straight away talking about it, which I think is brilliant, but for me it took a little while before I was ready to kind of announce it to, I think I told a few close friends and family, but I really needed some time to get my head around it, to process it or what I'd been told and make sense of my life a little bit before I started, yeah, coming out about it. Everybody's different, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: aren't they? But yeah, I just kind of went into myself a little bit. Trevor Holland: That's exactly it. I'm always interested in hearing that from people about not only the process of getting diagnosed, but what the what subsequently the emotional journey was because I've said it on more than one occasion now, but mine was just very surprising. I was completely taken aback by how affected by I was because like you, I was absolutely certain and I had been for a number of years. In fact, that I was that I was autistic. I was frustrated that I wasn't making any progress in terms of getting a diagnosis, but I was like, clearly I am autistic. And I genuinely thought that the diagnosis would would be hand on the shoulder saying, yeah, you were right. And it's not your fault. And it was that. But it was more than that as well. So I thought I was just going to feel validated. I thought I was just going to feel like someone had heard me for the first time in my life. But what I wasn't anticipating was just this really odd introspective few weeks that followed it. So like you, I went through the scrapbook in my head and started putting cliff notes next to everything that had ever happened to me, which basically said, yeah, a fucking course. That's why you did that. But then came the sadness of poor little Trevor who didn't know what was going on. Poor little Trevor for hating himself for 42 years. It's very self-indulgent, but it's that sadness. It's also the sadness of what's my life going to mean going forward now? Because even though you know in your head what's going on and even though getting the diagnosis hasn't actually changed, changed your condition, you know, from one day to the next, you are the same person with the same condition, but now it's actually got, now it's got an official name, but the symptoms aren't different. But I felt so much more like I had a disability suddenly and I didn't know then what the rest of my life was going to look like because I just didn't know. It just really confused me in a way that I wasn't expecting and it took me a number of weeks of just processing and processing before I came to the conclusion that absolutely was a positive thing to happen. The diagnosis was And I had an opportunity then to make something positive from it, which is what I'm doing here, or trying to do here. But yeah, it was really, really intense. Because Vicky Huttler: Yeah, I Trevor Holland: we're introspective anyway, aren't we? We overthink, but then I was even overthinking by my standards. And sorry, what were you saying? Vicky Huttler: Yeah, no, I was just going to add to what you said about there is that relief, which is massive, but then there is also that, OK, I'm autistic. I'm always going to be this. I'm always going to be the way I am, which in a way is validating, but at the same time, it's exactly what you say. It's like you realise you're always going to be like this. You know, it's not like you're diagnosed and then you've got to get fixed. You're diagnosed. and then you've got to then live with the fact that you're always going to be autistic, you're always going to have the same struggles that you've had all your life. But now you know why. Do you know what I mean? And I think what's really helped me with the diagnosis is the way that I move in the world has changed a lot. So I know now, I don't try and force myself to do things that I know are going to be really, really difficult for me. without the outcome. finds it really hard to articulate. I think I've just learned to put boundaries in and not feel guilty about it and be much kinder to myself and be much more aware of self care and all this stuff, which again is what I teach clients and students. So yeah, think just being a bit more aware of self care because I know I'm always going to be autistic now. Yeah, it can be hard sometimes as well. As well as the relief, it's also the, I'm always going to be like this and probably get worse as I get older with age, you know. So yeah, like you say, you don't know how you're going to be in 10 years time or 20 years time. You know, what will our brains look like in 10 years time? Who knows? Trevor Holland: But what was really valuable, which has only been a handful of months since I was diagnosed, but in that short time, I'm learning to listen to the signals or even interpret the signals that I'm sending myself a lot more clearly than before. Listening to my own needs more and being far kinder to not Because there is no such thing with something like autism or ADHD. There is no such thing as, I believe, pushing, pushing through. And, you know, and overcoming that there is no overcoming it. There's no pushing through. It's, it's, it's some things you can control some things you can't. You can control to an extent how your what your attitude is towards things, but you can't control the actual things. there's no benefit in trying to trying to push yourself too much. Because the only result from that is going to be a fallout, whether that's a burnout situation or, you know, an episode of poor mental health that comes with doing that because you have a limited set of resources, a limited battery. You can pretty much within reason do most stuff but you've got to realize that there's a cost to it and you've got to realize that you've got to balance what is feasible for you and what isn't. What is actually good for you and what isn't. What is is it worth trying to do this thing? because you know what's going to happen afterwards. You know how bad you're going to feel for a week after this. So do you really want to do that? It's that kind of conversation, Vicky Huttler: safe. Trevor Holland: that kind of dialogue that I can have with myself now, where I can think about it before I enter into a situation. I can really think, I'm not doing that because I don't want to feel like shit for a fortnight. So no thanks. But that's quite liberating, because I don't have to make excuses for it either. don't have to answer to anybody in that. If I'm presented with a situation that I know is not in my best interests, I can say no. And I don't have to feel any kind of way about that. So that's really good. Vicky Huttler: Yes, it's nice. It's liberating. Yeah, having those boundaries for sure. And not Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: feeling guilty anymore. You know, not feeling guilty that you're not pushing yourself and pushing yourself that little bit more. Yeah, it's freeing. And I think it also frees you up to do stuff that is valuable to you and to others. You know, it's almost like saving your energy for the things that are really, really worth it. That you know you can do really, really well. You know, like you're doing Trevor Holland: Yes. Yes. Vicky Huttler: your podcast. It's really good. You want to focus on that bit. that is when all the other stuff comes in to sort of fuzzy it, you don't really do anything. You just do everything really badly and get stressed and yeah, it's really difficult. So think, yeah, you put that really well about picking and choosing. Trevor Holland: Thank you. And yeah, you're absolutely right. Because it's like you're entering into every situation and you want to balance the books. So you're looking at what you've got in terms of your inventory. My metaphor is all over the fucking shop. But you're looking at your inventory. You're looking at what you've got, what resources you have. And then you're looking at the tasks that are in front of you. and you're looking at what you need to do those. What can you afford to lose? What's the more important one? You say you're prioritizing like, like you say, I know that I'm going to run out of energy here. So if I funnel most of it into this thing, that's got more value to me and to other people, something that's actually worth doing, then you're going to want to do that. Because you know that if you try to do that, plus the other three things that aren't quite as important. None of them are going to be done very well. So yeah, it's a real resource management exercise, isn't it? All the time. Vicky Huttler: is yeah, 100%. Yeah, and think we're lucky that we found things that we love and enjoy doing that we can do and still be relevant and kind of valuable to other people. Do you know what I mean? As far as help and yeah, helping share what we know and what we've learned to other people. I think that's really valuable because there was definitely people that were around when I was learning about autism and... researching it and half of their names I won't remember but I'll always remember that there were people there that helped share their stories and it really helped to shape mine, you know, and if I can be part of that story for other people, brilliant job done, Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: you know, I think that's definitely worthwhile. So yeah. Trevor Holland: When you went through this phase of looking back on your life once you got your diagnosis, what are some of the things that in retrospect you realised were because you were autistic but at the time probably didn't? know, are there any kind of standout things that occur to you? Just the way that you lived your life when you were a kid maybe or when you were a teenager or beyond that even? Vicky Huttler: mean, all of it. You know, all of it makes sense now. know, everything from how I played as a kid to, yeah, the teenage years of, you know, partying and clubbing and all that stuff. The relationships that I've had, why I've struggled with jobs. I mean, I've had jobs where I've worked in open plan offices in London, like commuting into London full time. To work in an open plan office, office politics, like... heavy workloads, like, yeah, all of it. I would never dream of putting myself through that again now, now that I know what I know. And I look back at some of the things I've put myself through when I was trying to, yeah, make my way in the world. if I'd known, who knows would it have been different? I don't know, but it was a lot, you know, I feel, I think you've got to look back and have a bit of sympathy for yourself, haven't you? You know, and thank God. me, how the hell did I cope with what I put on myself because I didn't want to say no because I wanted to keep pushing myself, you know. But yeah, think you re-examine everything, relationships, friendships. Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: Yeah, work all of it. So again, it's a lot to process. It's a lot of running over things. You why didn't that job work out? Why didn't that friendship work out? What about that night out where that happened? And it's just so much. And it's exhausting. You know, it's a lot. And yeah, it's the brain. It's the brain overthinking it all again, isn't it? But it does get easier. I think, like I say, once you take these things out of your brain, examine them, put them back in. Everything starts to fit back a little bit neater and make Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: a bit more sense. Trevor Holland: And you've mentioned some of the reactions from people in your circle when you started telling them, were there any reactions that took you by surprise? Maybe they weren't quite as understanding as you would hope. Were there any kind of, was there any cynicism from anybody? Vicky Huttler: Face to face, no, because I was very selective about who I chose to share it with, because it was so, so important to me and so deeply profound. didn't want to risk causing, I don't know, I just wanted to experience it with people that I felt I trusted. So that's what I did. However, online, I don't know. I think some of my friends and family... that I'm not that close with possibly have got their own judgement but the people that have spoken to me face to face have all been so supportive and probably have some understanding, probably known me a long time and yeah so I've been lucky I think, I haven't really had any negative experiences as far as coming out, my parents are very very supportive my daughters who are grown up very very supportive, very understanding husband, understanding, very supportive, know, it's difficult having relationships, especially undiagnosed, you know, it's very difficult, you don't know why you're angry all the time or whatever. So it was just nice to have some answers and to have people around me that, yeah, understood and connected with it. again, I've said this before on a couple of posts on my social media, it's like when you... when you have the diagnosis yourself, you start to look at people around you that you perhaps are related to or people that you've hung out with. And sure enough, probably most of them are neurodivergent, know, parents, cousins, siblings, whatever, which is probably why they are so understanding, because they can see it in themselves, you know. It Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: kind of resonates with them. So no, no bad experiences. I was very lucky touch wood. I've got a good circle around me, I think. Trevor Holland: Another thing I'm always interested to learn from people is kind of shared experiences. So what's your relationship like with your emotions? Vicky Huttler: There is very little emotional regulation, shall we say. If I'm really happy, I'm really happy. If I'm really angry, I'm really angry. And it's getting worse as I'm getting older. And again, I think this is the menopause and the hormones dipping. yeah, emotions are on my sleeve. cry very easily. Yeah, very little regulation at all and I found it really hard to actually identify emotions which again is a trait I've learnt since. So I would find it really hard to say I feel this or I feel that. It would just be like an overwhelming sensation or feeling or emotion but I wouldn't really know what it was or why I was feeling that way. So yeah, I guess it's a little bit confusing still, but I'm working my way through it. Trevor Holland: Do you ever have meltdowns? Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: What do they look like for you? Vicky Huttler: Lots of swearing. Very ugly. I'm really embarrassed about my meltdowns. They're very private. Sometimes they're in the car when I'm driving. Not a full meltdown, but yeah, there's a lot of swearing and shouting. Yeah, I don't like it at all. I find it really, really embarrassing. And it's kind of like the dark side for me of the condition. And the build up to them as well, I think is just horrible. I hate the build up because you know it's coming. You can feel yourself getting hot and sweaty and more and more angry and it's hard. You kind of revert to being a child, but it is what it is. And again, I think as you get older, learn, once you diagnose, you learn what brings them on and what causes them, and you try and avoid them as much as possible. and you put things in your life that's going to help you avoid them or make them very minimal but you can't always, you you can't always you're going to get triggered sometimes and that's just life. So yeah, they're not fun. I don't enjoy them. I don't really enjoy talking about them very much. think especially when you're running a business where, you know, you're supposed to be kind of... taking care of people and you're the one that's in control and you know everything that's right for you but you still fall over at your meltdowns kind of thing, you you still get caught up in them. But it's part of it, isn't it? It's part of Trevor Holland: It is. Vicky Huttler: being autistic, it's part of the experience. Trevor Holland: It is. What I was going to ask you actually was around the other side of things. you are a yoga coach, but also a personal trainer in terms of fitness. Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: those two things combined or are they two separate entities? Vicky Huttler: Really they're two separate things, so personal training, I now, so I was working in a big gym. five years ago, 10 years ago. I now travel to my clients, so we work one-to-one, and we mostly work on strength training, so it'll be weights, lifting. Sometimes they'll incorporate a bit of yoga, so if they wanna do yoga at the end of the session, or bring a bit of yoga into the session, then we'll do that, but the teaching, the yoga teaching that I do is generally like group classes, so they're two kind of separate parts of what I do. and very different kind of approaches as well. Yeah. But lots of people Trevor Holland: Right. Vicky Huttler: like to do both, which is good because they complement each other really well, I think. Trevor Holland: And how long have you been running this business that you're doing now? Vicky Huttler: So nearly 10 years, Trevor Holland: Wow. Vicky Huttler: nearly 10 years. So it's a long time. I've learned a lot in that time. I think you definitely can get qualified in anything, can't you? But once you, you only really start learning once you're on the job and you start working with people and problems are thrown at you in different situations and you work out what works, what doesn't work. Yeah, all that stuff. It's just experience, isn't it? It's like on the job experience. And definitely I've learned so much just through being consistent. So I've worked consistently in my fitness and yoga for 10 years and I've learned a lot. lot of experience. I've worked with hundreds of clients through both yoga and personal training, all into the spectrum, all abilities, all different personality types and I've really enjoyed it but now I work almost exclusively with women over 40 and since I've been talking about my autism and ADHD online I seem to attract neurodivergent women which is Trevor Holland: Mm. Vicky Huttler: perfect for me you know it's it's just Yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. So that's I guess that's my kind of specialism. You kind of work towards what you enjoy doing, don't you? And yeah, I really, really enjoy. I love the women that I work with. They're brilliant, you know. So yeah, that's what I do. Trevor Holland: That's great. Where do people need to go if they want to find out more about your services? Vicky Huttler: So they can head to my website which is in need of a rename, victoriajanefitness.co.uk or they can find me on Instagram at vicaracoach. So there will be more stuff coming online which I'm really looking forward to soon. So they can bear with, if they can just bear with me, will, yeah, it's a work in progress at the moment. But yeah, definitely if they're interested they can go onto the social media or get in touch through the website. there's an inquiry form on the website as well so it's always nice to hear from people. Trevor Holland: Brilliant. Brilliant. So yes, you should all do that. Now, you're a South London lady, right? Vicky Huttler: Yeah, I did live there for a bit. I wouldn't say I'm a South London woman, Trevor Holland: What? Vicky Huttler: yeah, we lived like by the highway for a few years. Trevor Holland: Where did you grow up? I'm just trying to... Because your accent is very familiar to me from my neck Vicky Huttler: It's me. Trevor Holland: of the woods. So you weren't... You didn't grow up in the South London area, Vicky Huttler: No, I was born in sort South East London, like Crayford, Dartford way. And then we moved down to Kent. So I would say this is probably a Kent accent. Yeah. Lived in Kent Trevor Holland: Okay, I grew up in Croydon. Vicky Huttler: most of my life. Trevor Holland: Got it. I grew up in Croydon. I've got that. I know you mentioned South London earlier on, but I was like, there's something about the way you speak that is very familiar to me. But you live in Kent now, yeah? Vicky Huttler: Kent, yeah, yeah. So down Trevor Holland: okay, cool. Vicky Huttler: in Rochester. Trevor Holland: Excellent stuff. So you're saying a little bit before we started about the ADHD. as of this recording, you haven't currently been able to get assessed for it. But since it was brought up as a possibility in your autism assessment, have you been looking more into it to kind of realize even though you hadn't thought about it before then necessarily, then absolutely you got ADHD as well. what are there any kind of standout features of your life that make you kind of think that? Vicky Huttler: Yeah, mean just things like staying focused on something, staying focused on things that you're not interested in, fidgeting, clumsiness. dropping things, prone to injury, prone to overthinking. I think with women it's much more like internal, isn't it? So it's like your brain is just on the go all the time, constantly thinking you should be doing this, you should be doing that. Why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you doing that? I'll start this, but then I'll go and do two other things at the same time. know, it's... Again, it's just a constant way of existing. I think what I do with my work, I'm learning all the time, but I'm definitely learning to take better care of myself and avoid things that, again, trigger it, like with the autism. So I'm much more aware now of things like foods that will trigger it. situations that will trigger it. If I don't exercise every day, it's really bad. If I don't get out in fresh air every day, it's bad. So I think you do, I've definitely learned to take good care of myself from it and Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: it's definitely better. But it's still there. It's that Trevor Holland: Hmm. Vicky Huttler: thing, we're always going to have it, aren't we? We're always going to be prone to it. Well, we're always going to have it. We're not just prone to it, we have it. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: But we've just got to look after it and keep it in. check I think as much as possible. Trevor Holland: It's really tough to I mean, it's tough to explain any of it to people who haven't lived it. But ADHD is a particularly tricky one, I think, because when you tell people that clinically, you can't do stuff that you don't want to do, it's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Vicky Huttler: Yeah. So true. Trevor Holland: Just do the thing you don't want to do. Like, it's not a case of mind over matter. It isn't. If something doesn't engage with me in any way, doesn't stimulate me in any way, it's not that it becomes hard to do it. It's impossible to do it. It Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: just doesn't work. It doesn't work. that is you trying to tell people that you're clinically lazy. And that's not what it is. But I completely understand why people think that when they hear it, because you're trying to tell people that you're that you're not lazy, but you look like you are everything, all the evidence suggests that you are, but you're not. And that was a really important thing for me because I was spent like many people my whole life being told I was lazy. Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: But you're so bright, Trevor. If you applied yourself. So yeah, I can't. I don't know why, but I can't. Yeah. Vicky Huttler: because you're not interested in it. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: But if you applied yourself, you could do all sorts of, yeah, if I could, I would, but I can't. But it was always Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: capable what doesn't try. That was my whole life. And so I believed it. I Vicky Huttler: Yeah, story of my life at school. Trevor Holland: believed it myself eventually. I started to believe it myself. I am lazy, aren't I? And I'm like, what a loser. I'm a waster. Because I'm, yeah. Vicky Huttler: And this is where it starts, isn't it? The whole beating yourself up thing and then punishing yourself for not trying hard enough and all that stuff. Yeah, it's not good. Trevor Holland: But then conversely, when it comes to not trying hard enough, when you find something that you do like, however fleeting that might be, you will try very hard. But the second that thing stops being interesting and exciting, it's amazing how quickly you can drop it like a sack of shit, right? Vicky Huttler: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Like just drop it like it never existed. Drop it like you never cared about it. Vicky Huttler: Which goes back to what I was saying earlier about when you're on a role where you are in that flow of you're loving what you're doing and you're all in and it's all making sense and it's all coming together. I just love that but I know it's not gonna last. It's Trevor Holland: Mm. Vicky Huttler: so hard because you know it's gonna come to an end but you're getting so much done, you're so productive. It's just the best feeling because you're buzzing from what you're doing and you're getting so much done. But sure enough, that focus comes to an end, that hyper... and then you crash and I know that crash has come in and then it's just like a deep dive for a few days recovering and thinking that was all shy anyway what was I even thinking and then slowly you climb back out of it you know and then you're back to that kind of like square one again but I definitely am a big believer in when you're when you're in that mood you're in that moment just just milk it for all it's worth because you're probably gonna have a week or two where you feel shit and you won't be productive at all So when you're on that train track and you're like aiming for the stars, just go for it. You know, make the most of it. That's my philosophy now. I try and be healthy with it, but you know, I think, yeah. Trevor Holland: it's a good one and it's yeah I still manage even after all these years you know I've been diagnosed nearly 15 years ago I'm still able to fool myself somehow so my whatever my latest kind of hyper fixation might be if I if I wake up one day and decide I'm gonna start doing this thing and I'll spend untold amounts of money getting all the stuff I need to do that thing and I'll do all the research that I'll watch all the videos and I'll read all the stuff and I'll learn all the intricacies of how to do this thing in my head I'm thinking no no no this isn't another one of those This isn't gonna this isn't this isn't me being ADHD. This isn't me getting super involved in something that I'm going to drop suddenly. No, no, no, this is different. This is the one. This is the one I'm going to do forever. No, no, I know it feels like it. I know it seems like it. No, no, this is the one, Trev. Don't worry about it. This is your life now. You're going to do this forever. But then every fucking time without fail at the drop of a hat, I'm like, yeah, yeah, whatever. Vicky Huttler: bored with that now. Yeah. Trevor Holland: It still happens man, but I enjoy Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it. I enjoy the ride while it's happening. Vicky Huttler: You learn a lot, don't you? I think you always come away with something. Trevor Holland: What you end up being is kind of good at a lot of different things because you learn how to do a lot of different things to a certain level before you get bored of it and stop doing it. But you're very much a jack of all trades and master of none. Or for me anyway, because I got to a certain point with untold numbers of different things. So I could try my hand at a lot of different stuff and do reasonably good job of it. But I'm not super duper good really at much. I'm just kind of good at everything. Vicky Huttler: Yeah, but that's enough to get by, isn't it? Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: You're accumulating all that knowledge along the way and having all those experiences, I think it's really valuable for sure. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Where the limited battery and limited focus really causes a problem for the likes of me is, I've said this to a number of my guests, but the prevailing sense that I'm getting, plus what I've read as well, is that the vast majority of autistic people who are fortunate enough to make a living are doing it via being self-employed, the vast majority. because traditional Vicky Huttler: Yeah, I 100 % agree with that, yeah. Trevor Holland: employment is not compatible in many, many cases with the kind of traits of autism. And that's very much true of me. I am traditionally employed and I'm trying to kind of make moves to somewhere down the line in the not too distant future to be able to make my living working for myself. that that becomes a daily frustration for me because I'm constantly frustrated at the progress or lack thereof because I'm not patient Vicky Huttler: Yeah, totally. Trevor Holland: enough because I've got ADHD I'm impatient but because I'm autistic I've got a very limited battery so I'm constantly like I want to keep pushing to get where I need to be but I feel like I'm going at a snail's pace and it's it just pisses me off constantly and Vicky Huttler: yet. Trevor Holland: I'm still struggling to kind of be kind enough to myself to be like just do what you can do Vicky Huttler: Yeah, and be consistent, know, just being consistent. think that out of all the things I've learned in life, think just consistency wins the race, you know, I think. whether it's keeping your podcast going, whether it's doing a regular class every on the same day, which is what I've done. I've done the same class on the same day for, I don't know, five years, you know, since I've been teaching yoga. And I think just that having that consistency, they're always fully booked, you know, they're always full because everyone now knows, Vicky does a class on a Thursday morning at 10 o'clock, you know, and it's just become a... I don't know, it's just taught me that, yeah, just stick with it, Vicky, you'll be alright, just stick with it. Instead of being this erratic kind of, I'll try that, but I better try that, and what I do an evening class, what if I do this? If I'm just consistent, it just helps, I don't know, it gives me some sort of grounding and some kind of rooting. Yeah, that's really helped. Trevor Holland: It's that kind of dedication that makes you feel really proud of yourself, whatever sort of small or large victory it is. It's that consistency that makes you feel like even if the thing you're doing isn't ostensibly progressing you towards a goal, the fact that you're turning up and doing it every single time is in itself for people like us a victory because we're, guess what? I fucking did it again, I'm still doing it and you Vicky Huttler: Yeah. Trevor Holland: really feel like you're overcoming something don't you? Vicky Huttler: Yeah, 100 % definitely. Yeah, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Vicky Huttler: and that's rewarding, know, and that's worth giving yourself a pat on the back for, you know, you're showing up for yourself, showing up for other people. Good on us, you know. It's worth celebrating, isn't it? Trevor Holland: And again, that's something else that someone who is unsympathetic towards neurodiversity would be like, I'll give you a pat on the back if I can turn it up for work every day like everyone else does. It's that thing, isn't it? It's like, well, but it is for us. It's a big deal. Vicky Huttler: massive for sure yeah Trevor Holland: Lovely, right. I'm gonna wrap it up there, Vicky, but I'd just like to thank you very much for joining me today, taking time out of your day. Do check out Vicky. You're Vicky Huttler: Thank you for having me. Trevor Holland: welcome, absolute pleasure. Check out Vicky online. I'll post the links in the job description. Jesus, the show notes and in the description on YouTube and so on. But yeah, Vicky, thank you very much. Take care and we'll keep in touch. I'll speak to you again soon, okay? Vicky Huttler: Thank you so much. Trevor Holland: Thank you once again, Vicky, for joining us. Hope you enjoyed that everybody. As I said at the beginning, please do like, subscribe and comment. I'd love to hear your feedback and please do get in contact with me with anything that you'd like me to raise in future episodes, as well as any ideas for guests that you might have. Much appreciated. Now, if you've been following me on Instagram, you might have noticed a story that I put up the other day where I was asking a question about sleep. I'm knackered as I bang on about almost constantly because... It is basically the way I'm constantly feeling at the moment. I was only diagnosed about three months ago. So this is all a little bit new to me. But I'm starting to see a correlation between autism and sleep issues. I was quite curious to find out what people think about that. I asked a question on my story the other day and had some interesting replies. But come come to me and tell me this. What's your sleep situation like? I'm particularly interested to hear from people who have ADHD and autism, but I'll take I'll take I'll take input from anybody really. What's your sleep pattern like? Do you have trouble getting to sleep? Do you have trouble staying asleep? And we know that how tiring the world is for people like us. And how much worse is that when you're also slightly sleep deprived? I'm really struggling with brain fog at the moment. I've just been so tired. My biggest problem isn't getting to sleep, it's staying asleep, right? So by the time I finish my dinner, Sarah and I are sitting on the sofa in the evening watching TV, most likely drag race, obviously. I most weeks will miss the lip sync because I fall asleep, go to bed, pass out, not staring at my screen all night, not having caffeine, not doing any of that shit. Fall asleep, no problem. But then pretty much three hours later, I will wake up and I'll stay awake. Some mornings I'll get up at one, two, three o'clock in the morning. and it just drains the shit out of me. So I'm knackered before I even started work in the morning. So I'd like to know what you guys do. What struggles do you have with sleep and what do you do about it? I'm looking for some free medical advice here guys. But yeah, please do get in touch with me. I'd love to hear from you. I'll be back next week with another special guest. But in the meantime, I hope you enjoyed listening to Vicky. Please follow her. Enjoy your week. Have fun. Be safe. Be kind to each other. Be kind to yourselves and sorry that you've got a shouty brain. It is what it is, right? Take care.