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Understanding Your True Identity with Dr Jeremy Thompson · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:09
Speaker 1: Doctor Jeremy Thompson. Welcome to the podcast.
0:12
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Paul, thanks for having me on
0:14
Speaker 2: the show. And hope I can give somebody to offer
0:18
Speaker 2: you and anyone who's listening.
0:21
Speaker 3: Man, I think you will because you've been in you're
0:24
Speaker 3: a doctor, you've been in sort of family medicine practicing
0:27
Speaker 3: out there in the community for probably more decades than
0:31
Speaker 3: you'd cur to remember. But you also have a keen
0:34
Speaker 3: interest in the whole psychology space. Obviously you'd have seen
0:38
Speaker 3: a lot of that in your time, and you're past
0:41
Speaker 3: president of the Australians Society for Psychological Medicine. So just
0:46
Speaker 3: I can I ask you first and first and foremost,
0:49
Speaker 3: so what when you did your training right and then
0:52
Speaker 3: you landed in did you start off as you go
0:56
Speaker 3: through all your training right, and then you end up
0:58
Speaker 3: in family medicine, maybe as a GP or whatever you
1:01
Speaker 3: were doing. What did you find that you weren't prepared
1:05
Speaker 3: for from your training when you got into the real world.
1:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're a medical student and then normally after
1:12
Speaker 2: that you're working hospitals, you know, for a few years,
1:16
Speaker 2: and then you might either specialize or go into family
1:19
Speaker 2: medical practice and become a general practitioner. So I've always
1:23
Speaker 2: been a bit of an all rounder with everything, so
1:25
Speaker 2: I ended up in general practice. When you work in
1:29
Speaker 2: those hospitals, it was pretty helter skelter a lot of
1:31
Speaker 2: the time, as you can imagine. But once you're in
1:34
Speaker 2: the general practice and you've got these one on one
1:36
Speaker 2: consultations with people, and you've got full confidentiality, So people
1:41
Speaker 2: come in and they unload on you, and they open
1:44
Speaker 2: their hearts to you. They tell you stories I've often
1:46
Speaker 2: never told anyone else, and so you really get to
1:50
Speaker 2: see another side of people. And you're in a community too,
1:53
Speaker 2: so you're kind of seeing all the different kinds of
1:56
Speaker 2: people that live in that community. You know, there's a
1:59
Speaker 2: few rich and fam some down and out. You've got
2:02
Speaker 2: mothers and little brand new babies coming in. You've got
2:05
Speaker 2: old people at the end of their lives. So you've
2:08
Speaker 2: got this broad spectrum of people. And yeah, it did
2:12
Speaker 2: sort of strike me right from the word go. You know,
2:14
Speaker 2: just how much sort of stress and anxiety such that
2:18
Speaker 2: it was. People would come in and it's like a
2:20
Speaker 2: big smoke screen of all these things that are troubling
2:24
Speaker 2: them and bothering them. And there's some symptoms in there,
2:28
Speaker 2: maybe a chest pain or a tummy discomfort or something
2:31
Speaker 2: in there. And so you're trying to sift through this
2:34
Speaker 2: cloud of stress and anxiety to work out exactly what
2:39
Speaker 2: is the real problem there, which may be a fair
2:43
Speaker 2: income medical problem, like perhaps they've got cancer, or maybe
2:47
Speaker 2: it is just a lot of anxiety and stress because
2:49
Speaker 2: of the stresses they're going through at work or at home.
2:53
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think most family doctors lease in Australia
2:57
Speaker 2: that it doesn't take long before you realize need to
3:00
Speaker 2: understand the whole bigger picture of human beings and their
3:04
Speaker 2: frailties and the things that they're struggling with. And so yeah,
3:09
Speaker 2: I did become interested in all this mental health kind
3:11
Speaker 2: of stuff and involved in sort of training other GPS
3:15
Speaker 2: in that area. And that's where that College and Psychological
3:18
Speaker 2: Medicine was. That's a group for GPS with an interest
3:21
Speaker 2: in that kind of thing. So yeah, there's plenty of
3:23
Speaker 2: people like me who are out there trying to help
3:26
Speaker 2: people in that field.
3:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, for many many years, the dominanty
3:32
Speaker 3: if we focus on depression, the dominant thinking for many
3:36
Speaker 3: many years was that it's driven by law, serotonin and
3:40
Speaker 3: that has been quite roindly debunked.
3:43
Speaker 1: I think in the last few years.
3:47
Speaker 3: There was a pepper by Joanna Montcrief and colleagues that
3:50
Speaker 3: basically just blew a bomb underneath the serotonin hypothesis, and
3:55
Speaker 3: their theory is that it is chronic stress that is
3:59
Speaker 3: the me in.
4:00
Speaker 1: Your contributor to depression. What's your view on that something
4:05
Speaker 1: the call fice.
4:06
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I think ultimately we've we've come
4:09
Speaker 2: through a long line of sort of evolution, and you
4:13
Speaker 2: and I and all of us who are alive on
4:15
Speaker 2: the planet, we're kind of were the survivors. We're the
4:18
Speaker 2: best of the best, and I kind of believe that
4:22
Speaker 2: everyone's got within them the enough sort of strength and
4:25
Speaker 2: talents to survive in the world. So normally we should
4:29
Speaker 2: be able to survive and thrive. And if you're not,
4:31
Speaker 2: and you're feeling down and depressed, well there's probably just
4:34
Speaker 2: something wrong with the way you're sort of looking at
4:37
Speaker 2: your life or managing it. And most of the time, yeah,
4:42
Speaker 2: there's probably isn't some kind of organic biochemical thing that's
4:46
Speaker 2: causing you to be depressed. At some other bigger factors,
4:50
Speaker 2: perhaps the sort of stuff that you've been trying to
4:52
Speaker 2: help people with Having said that, there are occasions where
4:57
Speaker 2: you do you get people where actually they've been cruised
5:00
Speaker 2: along quite well in life, and for some reason they
5:02
Speaker 2: do seem to get a biochemical depression, and some of
5:05
Speaker 2: these antidepressants believe it. I'm not do work with some people,
5:09
Speaker 2: but you know, my perspective would be for every one
5:13
Speaker 2: of those, there's probably a hundred where really it's just
5:17
Speaker 2: the stress of life and the way they've kind of
5:19
Speaker 2: got themselves into this very hard way of living. That's
5:24
Speaker 2: the problem. I have this idea that I have right
5:30
Speaker 2: for me identities is really important, and that some people
5:34
Speaker 2: actually have never really come up with a good clear
5:37
Speaker 2: sense of who they are as a person. I have
5:40
Speaker 2: what I call the mixed bag concept. So they do
5:44
Speaker 2: recognize that they've got good points and some strengths and
5:48
Speaker 2: talents in there, but they've also got a whole lot
5:51
Speaker 2: of negative thoughts and ideas, Oh I'm not good enough,
5:54
Speaker 2: I'm worthy, you know, I'm the bad one, I'm the
5:58
Speaker 2: dumb one. And so these negative sort of forces are
6:02
Speaker 2: mixed up with their positive traits, and so with a
6:06
Speaker 2: mixed up sense of self, it's actually really hard to
6:09
Speaker 2: get a grip on your life and find the right direction.
6:12
Speaker 2: And you spend a lot of time doing things you
6:14
Speaker 2: feel you should do or you ought to do to
6:16
Speaker 2: keep everyone happy, but it's kind of not quite right
6:19
Speaker 2: for you inside. And so for me, a lot of
6:24
Speaker 2: feeling down and depressed and struggling in life comes from
6:28
Speaker 2: this mixed up sense of self. And I think it's
6:31
Speaker 2: really important for people not to clear up that kind
6:35
Speaker 2: of mess, if you know what I mean, and have
6:38
Speaker 2: a clearer, positive sense of self where your natural talents
6:43
Speaker 2: and abilities that I think everyone is born with and
6:46
Speaker 2: we're born with different talents and natural inclinations, but kind
6:50
Speaker 2: of get to know that true side of yourself and
6:54
Speaker 2: separate out all these negative forces which actually you weren't
6:57
Speaker 2: born with, but you've acquired them in your life.
7:00
Speaker 3: I was a boat to ask, sorry to cut in there,
7:04
Speaker 3: and no, you phinish, actually, and then I'll ask my question.
7:07
Speaker 2: No, I was just saying that. And I used to
7:11
Speaker 2: work in a children's hospital at one stage, and when
7:14
Speaker 2: I first went into family medical practice, I had a
7:16
Speaker 2: lot of babies and kids and their mums bringing them
7:20
Speaker 2: in because you know, I've always loved children, but I
7:22
Speaker 2: think and I think you've got kids yourself, haven't you. You know,
7:26
Speaker 2: when they're born into the world, it blows my mind
7:29
Speaker 2: how pure and how beautiful they are. And little babies
7:34
Speaker 2: will cry or be miserable if they're in pain, or
7:37
Speaker 2: they're tired or hungry, there's something wrong. But if there's
7:41
Speaker 2: nothing wrong, and they're actually remarkably happy and you know,
7:45
Speaker 2: and have a great sort of natural creativity and guts,
7:50
Speaker 2: you know, and they'll take on a big adult as
7:53
Speaker 2: I try and forge their way and do their thing.
7:57
Speaker 2: So I think these positive talents and things we've actually
8:02
Speaker 2: got within ourselves when we're born, and your hope as
8:05
Speaker 2: you go through life that you'll discover more and more
8:07
Speaker 2: of these different talents and positive inclinations that you've got,
8:12
Speaker 2: because that's really what I think the center of your
8:15
Speaker 2: personality should be based on. That's the real new Unfortunately,
8:21
Speaker 2: as a kid goes through life, you can't just do
8:24
Speaker 2: whatever you want. You do have to fit in with
8:26
Speaker 2: the family rules or the rules at school, and you
8:28
Speaker 2: can't always do your thing, and so then there's a
8:32
Speaker 2: struggle and you need to work your way through that
8:35
Speaker 2: fairly smoothly. Unfortunately, a lot of people get the wrong
8:40
Speaker 2: idea they think, oh, I'm the bad kid, or no
8:42
Speaker 2: one likes me, or particularly if you're a bit so,
8:46
Speaker 2: a bit adhd, which I kind of had as a kid,
8:49
Speaker 2: and you know, or there's something about you. Maybe you're
8:54
Speaker 2: a very strong minded individual, so you kind of get
8:57
Speaker 2: into trouble and you're the naughty one. You're the bad one.
9:00
Speaker 2: That is me. Yeah, But my point is is that
9:04
Speaker 2: sometimes when you're growing up, those bad feelings that I'm
9:08
Speaker 2: the bad guy that can get caught up in your
9:11
Speaker 2: sense of self. And I think as you get older
9:15
Speaker 2: you kind of learn hang on, that's not really me. Yes,
9:17
Speaker 2: I'm a strong, positive person that likes to speak their mind.
9:21
Speaker 2: But but I'm a good person. I mean well, and
9:24
Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt people. I want to do
9:25
Speaker 2: the right thing. So separating out any negative sort of
9:29
Speaker 2: forces or unhelpful beliefs that you've acquired is a critical thing.
9:34
Speaker 2: So by the time a kid leaves school, they need
9:37
Speaker 2: to have a good sense of who that real inner,
9:40
Speaker 2: positive person is and any negative stuff you want that
9:44
Speaker 2: separated out to the side. And that's what I call
9:47
Speaker 2: a positive centered approach to life.
9:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in violent.
9:52
Speaker 1: Agreement over this.
9:53
Speaker 3: My question was and on this topic because I think
9:58
Speaker 3: identity is huge, hugely important, and I think so many
10:01
Speaker 3: people will resonate with that idea of a mixed bag, right,
10:05
Speaker 3: especially people who've had adverse childhood experiences, right, who've been
10:10
Speaker 3: brought up in some sort of stressful environment, whether it
10:14
Speaker 3: was being bullied when they were a kid, whether it
10:16
Speaker 3: was parents telling them that they're not good enough, or
10:20
Speaker 3: just this disapproval that constant disapproval from can be just
10:24
Speaker 3: one parent and it has that I'm not good enough
10:27
Speaker 3: that then it's fifty years old, they still have that in.
10:30
Speaker 1: The back of their head.
10:32
Speaker 3: So how much of a role because you know, we
10:35
Speaker 3: talked about you talked about these babies born and they
10:38
Speaker 3: have all this positivity. And look, if you look at
10:40
Speaker 3: it from a neuroscience perspective, you know, born with all
10:44
Speaker 3: of this potential, all these neurons in the brain goes
10:46
Speaker 3: through synaptic pruning as you grow up and it's basically
10:51
Speaker 3: getting cultivated like a Bonzeie tree from the environment.
10:55
Speaker 1: So how much does that play.
10:58
Speaker 3: A role, like Europe bringing the amount of stress that
11:02
Speaker 3: you had in your upbringing.
11:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it brings a hell of a lot, as
11:07
Speaker 2: you know, and probably the heavier the trauma and the
11:12
Speaker 2: younger the age that it gets inflicted upon you, the
11:15
Speaker 2: more damages causes, and the harder it is to change
11:19
Speaker 2: and get rid of. And there's a massive reality about
11:22
Speaker 2: that nonetheless, though, And I mean I've had lots of
11:26
Speaker 2: patients who've gone through terrible traumas and yet you kind
11:30
Speaker 2: of wouldn't know it because they've kind of somehow or other,
11:33
Speaker 2: they've managed to put that to the side. Yes, and
11:36
Speaker 2: they've developed a good sense of self belief, and it's
11:40
Speaker 2: with that force that they move forward in their life
11:43
Speaker 2: and they leave the rest behind. I have these sort
11:46
Speaker 2: of models that I use. I don't know I can
11:49
Speaker 2: say that diagram, but just if you can see this
11:54
Speaker 2: little one here, so as I say, people as a
11:58
Speaker 2: little baby, they don't know what they're going to be
12:00
Speaker 2: good at or talented as they go through life, but
12:02
Speaker 2: it's in there somewhere, these these positives, love hearts and
12:06
Speaker 2: happy faces if you like. And then due to these
12:10
Speaker 2: traumas and all the things that happened that unfortunately you are.
12:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for the lesteners you can't see this's he's
12:21
Speaker 3: enjoy Yeah, he's not drawing negatives in that little.
12:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I've got a circle representing your mind, and
12:27
Speaker 2: it's full of natural positives and plusses and happy faces
12:31
Speaker 2: and things. But unfortunately, because you acquire these these feelings
12:35
Speaker 2: are not being good enough or unworthy or whatever, that
12:39
Speaker 2: that these negative forces and middle dialogues get your head.
12:42
Speaker 2: So the picture of God is this this mixed back.
12:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of like that.
12:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. And often if I get a confused person who's
12:51
Speaker 2: really stressed, and so I'll tell me about yourself, and
12:54
Speaker 2: you know, they'll say, well, look, I mean, well, I
12:56
Speaker 2: try to do the right thing, and I'm quite good
12:59
Speaker 2: at this, and I love my family, but I'm also
13:03
Speaker 2: very depressive and I get anxiety and I really feel
13:06
Speaker 2: like I'm a loser. So they have this mixed way
13:09
Speaker 2: of thinking about themselves, which makes life very difficult. And
13:13
Speaker 2: you know, people talk about resilience, and actually it's hard
13:16
Speaker 2: to be strong and resilient when you feel in your
13:19
Speaker 2: identity that you're actually full of negatives and weaknesses and deficits.
13:25
Speaker 2: And if someone points one out, and they point out
13:29
Speaker 2: one of these and eggers in you, it feels like
13:31
Speaker 2: they're sticking a knife in your chest. If you know
13:33
Speaker 2: what I mean, and if you ever do something wrong
13:36
Speaker 2: or make a mistake, these negatives thing to grow. And
13:41
Speaker 2: also people start to label you for them, and they go, gee,
13:45
Speaker 2: you're a you're a you know, you're a complete learnatic,
13:47
Speaker 2: You're a loser, you're a rat bag. They call you
13:50
Speaker 2: all sorts of names. And also some of these things
13:54
Speaker 2: form what you can what doctors describe as medical illness,
14:00
Speaker 2: and so they will label you as well, you know, yeah,
14:03
Speaker 2: you've got bipolar dis sort of, you'r a borderline personality,
14:07
Speaker 2: all these sort of terms. I've got my dog outside
14:12
Speaker 2: trying to get anything. And so this mixed up way
14:16
Speaker 2: of seeing yourself is no good and it causes trouble
14:20
Speaker 2: in relationships too, because also when if you think of
14:23
Speaker 2: other people in this same.
14:26
Speaker 3: Jeremy, could you just shift your camera slightly too soon
14:30
Speaker 3: as I can see, Yeah, keep going a little bit.
14:31
Speaker 1: Yeah cool, all right, excellent, you got it there.
14:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not drawing this very well. But a
14:39
Speaker 2: lot of people who have a kind of mixed up,
14:41
Speaker 2: confused sense of themselves, they tend to see other people
14:44
Speaker 2: in the same way, and they'll quickly they find it
14:48
Speaker 2: hard to have relationships.
14:49
Speaker 3: Is that because they're brilliant because they're a MiG dealer's
14:53
Speaker 3: hyper vigilant around that, so they're they're kind of scanning
14:57
Speaker 3: the environment for that. The reticular activating system is nigh
15:00
Speaker 3: locking in on that stuff.
15:02
Speaker 2: Look, I think there's a lot of that that's going on.
15:06
Speaker 2: But basically they have a confused way of thinking about
15:09
Speaker 2: themselves and other people, and they'll quickly judge people as
15:13
Speaker 2: being a bad person or I don't like them, you know,
15:16
Speaker 2: I hate that person. I don't want to have anything
15:19
Speaker 2: to do with them, because it's hard to deal with
15:21
Speaker 2: people if you both have this mixed up sense, and
15:24
Speaker 2: it creates that sort of stress in your brain and
15:26
Speaker 2: your immgula.
15:28
Speaker 1: A better way of seeing yourself is.
15:31
Speaker 2: To separate, as I say, these negative forces should not
15:36
Speaker 2: really be inside your sense of self. They should be
15:39
Speaker 2: separated out to the side. So it's better. And those
15:46
Speaker 2: people who can actually see this model where I've got
15:49
Speaker 2: a drawn where the center of yourself is full of
15:51
Speaker 2: these positives and the negatives, it's more that they're out
15:57
Speaker 2: to the side, and this is a better way to
15:58
Speaker 2: think of yourself to think of other people.
16:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like for those you can't see Jeremy just
16:04
Speaker 1: describe it.
16:05
Speaker 3: You kind of like a Van diagram where there's all
16:08
Speaker 3: your positives and one sat and the negatives on the
16:10
Speaker 3: other side, which is so you're compitmentalizing the negative stuff. Yes,
16:18
Speaker 3: trying to separate that out from your strengths is kind
16:20
Speaker 3: of what you're saying here.
16:21
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, and I think we all try and
16:23
Speaker 2: do that in our lives. And look, I'm one of
16:27
Speaker 2: those guys that if I was playing football or something,
16:29
Speaker 2: I loved it if the coach had a whiteboard, and
16:31
Speaker 2: it's kind of explaining what we're trying to do. Doesn't
16:34
Speaker 2: mean it always works out, but unless you have a
16:36
Speaker 2: plan and you can see what you're trying to do. So,
16:39
Speaker 2: for example, in this thing, when it comes down to relationships,
16:43
Speaker 2: you can see it's kind of easier to kind of
16:45
Speaker 2: connect your positives like that between yourself and another person.
16:51
Speaker 2: And if if you feel a negative force and then
16:55
Speaker 2: coming out, you need to be very careful that you
16:57
Speaker 2: don't lean over and start react negatively back yourself. But
17:03
Speaker 2: you have a sense that even though this person is
17:05
Speaker 2: doing something that you don't like, that you know that
17:09
Speaker 2: there's a good side to them and you've got to
17:11
Speaker 2: connect with their good side and form more positive relationships
17:16
Speaker 2: like that. So and in fact, you know, there are
17:19
Speaker 2: some people in life that can seem to get on
17:22
Speaker 2: with anybody, even really difficult people. And so I've often wondered, well,
17:26
Speaker 2: how do they actually do that? And this is kind
17:29
Speaker 2: of what they do. They stay their true positive self.
17:31
Speaker 2: They don't allow themselves to sort of lapse over and
17:35
Speaker 2: react angrily or negatively or unhelpfully. But they try and say, hey,
17:41
Speaker 2: I can see there's something here upsetting you. Tell me,
17:44
Speaker 2: tell me what's behind it, and I'll see if I
17:46
Speaker 2: can help you. So this way, what I call positive
17:52
Speaker 2: centered sort of psychology, is a way of separating out
17:57
Speaker 2: not only in how you think about yourself well so
18:00
Speaker 2: that you can feel more connected with the true inequalities
18:04
Speaker 2: of your personality, but you can also have a way
18:09
Speaker 2: of seeing it with other people, even people when they
18:12
Speaker 2: rub you up the wrong way, that it gives you
18:14
Speaker 2: a means to sort of connect more positively.
18:18
Speaker 3: And before we dive into that a little bit deeper,
18:21
Speaker 3: because I do want to in particularly around identity as
18:26
Speaker 3: somebody who's worked in family medicine and has been the
18:30
Speaker 3: president of Austrian Society for Psychological meds and lots of
18:33
Speaker 3: doctors in there. Do you think it's an issue? So
18:36
Speaker 3: I interviewed Professor John Reid, who's a psychology researcher and
18:41
Speaker 3: in his research, which was I think mostly in UK
18:44
Speaker 3: and New Zealand, they find that only twenty five percent
18:48
Speaker 3: of mental health professionals ever ask somebody if they've had
18:52
Speaker 3: adverse childhood experiences?
18:56
Speaker 1: Are you surprised by that? And do you think that's
18:58
Speaker 1: an issue?
18:59
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, well yeah, I'd be surprised. I mean, do
19:03
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's just part of this crazy modern
19:06
Speaker 2: world that we're in where it's just everything is quick.
19:08
Speaker 2: It's got to be.
19:10
Speaker 1: That was going to be my next question.
19:11
Speaker 3: And is it a problem that GP's appointments are dying
19:15
Speaker 3: so short?
19:16
Speaker 1: Nigh?
19:17
Speaker 3: Because you talked about you know, your first day, you
19:20
Speaker 3: learn about their issues and I think that's what the
19:22
Speaker 3: doctor used to do with longer appointments that really understand them.
19:25
Speaker 3: They'd have the family, the family dynamics and know it's
19:28
Speaker 3: like bang, bang bang, you go to your fifteen minute
19:30
Speaker 3: appointment or whatever it is.
19:32
Speaker 2: Well, one people do like coming to see me, but
19:35
Speaker 2: one thing they complain about is they often have to wait.
19:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you're actually, you know, trying to understand them.
19:43
Speaker 2: But you know one thing that I think, I think
19:46
Speaker 2: anyone say if you're going for counseling people to too quickly,
19:51
Speaker 2: in my opinion, you get stuck in the problem there
19:53
Speaker 2: is and without actually getting to know the person themselves.
19:57
Speaker 2: And the only way to get to know the person
19:59
Speaker 2: is you've got to here's something about their background. You know,
20:02
Speaker 2: where have you come from, What what was it like
20:06
Speaker 2: in your child and what did you learn about yourself
20:08
Speaker 2: when you were growing up.
20:10
Speaker 1: It's so obvious, isn't that.
20:12
Speaker 3: I was stunned when he told me only twenty five
20:14
Speaker 3: percent of mental health professionals ever ask about family history,
20:18
Speaker 3: because I mean, I mean we because we're talking about
20:20
Speaker 3: identity here.
20:21
Speaker 4: Right, and all those all those thoughts, all of those
20:26
Speaker 4: automatic negative thoughts should have would have could have you know,
20:29
Speaker 4: the issues, the negative I'm not good enough, the stuff
20:33
Speaker 4: that maybe.
20:36
Speaker 1: You know that there's I think.
20:38
Speaker 3: What we need to realize is that if you had
20:41
Speaker 3: those added first childhood experiences, there's a part of you
20:44
Speaker 3: that that kind of dealt with it in a certain
20:47
Speaker 3: way that may have been helpful then when you were
20:51
Speaker 3: a kid, but it's now no longer serving you, and
20:54
Speaker 3: there's still the same thoughts and blockages that can come up.
20:57
Speaker 2: Right, Well, that's right, and it's it's I think you
21:00
Speaker 2: need to look at these past experiences. They might have
21:03
Speaker 2: seemed like very bad past experiences, and you might be
21:07
Speaker 2: left with some bad memories and some bad thoughts, but
21:10
Speaker 2: you want to have an accurate balance of it that
21:13
Speaker 2: somehow or other you didn't manage to survive that. See that, Yeah,
21:18
Speaker 2: what was the part of you that got through that? Okay,
21:22
Speaker 2: that's worth latching onto because that's part of your truth.
21:25
Speaker 2: So if you've acquired some negative idea, oh that means
21:30
Speaker 2: I'm not good enough, well you can challenge and say, oh,
21:33
Speaker 2: how that just doesn't really stack up. But those sort
21:36
Speaker 2: of things do need challenging and putting in their place.
21:39
Speaker 2: So I do like to hear about people's childs where
21:44
Speaker 2: they've come from it. You'd be blown away. How many
21:47
Speaker 2: people will say, oh, my father was just the worst
21:50
Speaker 2: person ever. He never did anything for us. And I'll say, oh, really,
21:54
Speaker 2: are you sure there wasn't any time or he might
21:57
Speaker 2: have might have been quite nice, And people generally will go, yeah,
22:01
Speaker 2: he did actually sometimes sit down and read us a story,
22:04
Speaker 2: or well, actually he did take his camping a couple
22:07
Speaker 2: of times and we had a nice time. So I'm
22:09
Speaker 2: not trying to refute their story. Maybe the father was
22:14
Speaker 2: a bad, bad man in many respects, but you just
22:17
Speaker 2: want to get the balance out of it. And even
22:19
Speaker 2: if someone feels badly about their parents, I'll always say,
22:24
Speaker 2: and what you reckon your dad's childhood was like when
22:27
Speaker 2: he was growing up? And invariably oh yeah, well he
22:31
Speaker 2: had a really hard time. His father was, you know,
22:34
Speaker 2: came back from.
22:35
Speaker 1: The war and probably a PTSD. Right, And that really
22:41
Speaker 1: just on that.
22:41
Speaker 3: There's a brilliant little tune from Japanese psychology my most
22:45
Speaker 3: of practitioner. It's called a Nakan reflection, right, and you
22:49
Speaker 3: can do this on a daily basis, So you can
22:50
Speaker 3: take someone like say you had a troubled relationship with
22:53
Speaker 3: one of your parents, and you can do this in
22:56
Speaker 3: five year blocks. So there's three questions with Nakan, what
23:00
Speaker 3: did I give? What did I receive? And what troubles
23:04
Speaker 3: and difficulties did I cause? Right, Because what this does
23:09
Speaker 3: is it broadens the lens. So to your point, what
23:13
Speaker 3: did I receive? Well, then you're not focusing on their
23:16
Speaker 3: bad points? What did they actually do for me? Well,
23:19
Speaker 3: you know, they give birth to you if I say
23:21
Speaker 3: it was your mom or or you know, they close you,
23:24
Speaker 3: they fed you, you know, they give you some love
23:26
Speaker 3: at some stage, they give you a home over, you
23:28
Speaker 3: know all of these things.
23:30
Speaker 1: What what did I give? Is?
23:32
Speaker 3: You know what what what positives did I contribute to?
23:36
Speaker 3: And then what troubles and difficulties did I cause right
23:39
Speaker 3: in this relationship? And then people often reflect Actually in
23:42
Speaker 3: my teenage years, I was a little shit right, and
23:45
Speaker 3: yes there was a lot of bad stuff before that,
23:48
Speaker 3: but I actually contributed something here as well. And what
23:52
Speaker 3: I think this does is it broadens the lens, particularly
23:56
Speaker 3: if people are stuck in victim. Who I'm not criticizing
24:01
Speaker 3: people who are stuck in victim, but Jesus a sticky
24:04
Speaker 3: place in there, right, And I think it's helpful just
24:08
Speaker 3: to kind of broaden the lands and go, well, actually
24:10
Speaker 3: they did do some good and I maybe did some
24:13
Speaker 3: bad stuff, and but let's I move forward, and you know,
24:18
Speaker 3: how can I use this going forward?
24:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And even those questions you know, what
24:24
Speaker 2: did I give? What did I receive? To say that
24:28
Speaker 2: I you need a sense of way, who is that
24:31
Speaker 2: when you say what did I give? What do you?
24:34
Speaker 2: What do you actually mean? Because you know, you were
24:36
Speaker 2: this complex person growing up with various aspects to your personality,
24:42
Speaker 2: a lot of different parts in there, you know, So
24:49
Speaker 2: even those questions, it's like, you know, someone says, what
24:52
Speaker 2: do you want to do in your life? Or what
24:53
Speaker 2: do you what do you want to do next year
24:55
Speaker 2: or something like that. To answer that question, well, I
24:58
Speaker 2: want to do this, you really need to to have
25:00
Speaker 2: a good sense of that eye. So it actually takes
25:03
Speaker 2: a bit of time to work those things out, and
25:06
Speaker 2: those sort of questions that you were saying help you
25:09
Speaker 2: to look at yourself. We examine most of the time.
25:12
Speaker 2: It's not that you were a little shit as a teenager. Okay,
25:16
Speaker 2: there was a shitty part of me. What was it
25:21
Speaker 2: worried about? It didn't like the way I was being
25:23
Speaker 2: pushed around or told what to do or whatever. And
25:27
Speaker 2: there was some other parts of me that actually wanted
25:29
Speaker 2: to study and work hard, but that rebellious part of
25:33
Speaker 2: me was still trying to sort things out, and that
25:36
Speaker 2: was probably related to family dynamics or you know. It
25:39
Speaker 2: takes a while to understand it. And as you know,
25:42
Speaker 2: as you get older yourself, you do start to put
25:45
Speaker 2: the bits of the jigsaw puzzle back in a better place.
25:50
Speaker 2: And so this is a thing that I think is
25:52
Speaker 2: really important, the way you think about yourself, and as
25:56
Speaker 2: you get older, when you think of your own parents,
25:58
Speaker 2: you know, sure there were aspects of them that you
26:00
Speaker 2: didn't like and maybe still don't like, but there are
26:03
Speaker 2: good aspects too. And the way forward with all of
26:06
Speaker 2: us is we've got to try and be our best
26:09
Speaker 2: person ourselves, which I think you don't try and be
26:13
Speaker 2: someone who you're not. You just got to work out
26:15
Speaker 2: how and who's the real me? Who am I born
26:17
Speaker 2: to be? What in my genetics and things? Imagine I
26:21
Speaker 2: had not none of these bad things happened in my life,
26:24
Speaker 2: what would what would I probably be doing? And you know,
26:28
Speaker 2: flourishing and moving forward positively without these negatives getting a
26:33
Speaker 2: whold of you and dragging you back, and and thinking
26:36
Speaker 2: of your parents in the same way that they've all
26:38
Speaker 2: got a they've all got a good heart and soul
26:40
Speaker 2: to them, but they weren't perfect. None of us are perfect.
26:44
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think the whole thing Gandhi's idea of
26:48
Speaker 3: don't judge somebody until you've walked a mail in their
26:51
Speaker 3: shoes is really really important. Like rather than look at
26:54
Speaker 3: someone and go what a deckhead they are, it's like
26:57
Speaker 3: being curious, like what was their upbringing?
26:59
Speaker 1: Like why do they why do they behaved like that?
27:01
Speaker 3: Because you know, we're all just humans struggling in this
27:04
Speaker 3: world where you know, everything around the universe is just
27:08
Speaker 3: coming into our heads and we personalize everything. But the
27:14
Speaker 3: identity thing I want I want to then talk about
27:18
Speaker 3: talk about identity and and broaden the lens a little
27:22
Speaker 3: bit too, not just like what's what's my identity, but
27:28
Speaker 3: what sort of values and virtues do I want to have?
27:31
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm hearing in your talking lots of CBT undertones,
27:35
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of stoic philosophy in that. I
27:37
Speaker 3: mean Marcus Aurelius used to get up in the morning
27:40
Speaker 3: and actually say, you know, what values and virtues do
27:44
Speaker 3: I want to express today? You know, who do I
27:47
Speaker 3: want to be today? And then at the end of
27:49
Speaker 3: the day he would journal and say, here's what I
27:52
Speaker 3: said I wanted to do.
27:53
Speaker 1: What went well, what didn't right?
27:56
Speaker 3: So, So how do people build a say, say they
28:00
Speaker 3: do have a sense of a mixed bag identity other
28:04
Speaker 3: than compartmentalizing, how do they really focus on strengths?
28:10
Speaker 1: Do you bring values virtues into that process?
28:14
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. I mean I tend to think
28:17
Speaker 2: and not not in terms of what values do I
28:20
Speaker 2: want to bring forth today or something? But I just
28:22
Speaker 2: kind of think, what does the real me want to
28:24
Speaker 2: do today? You know a lot of the negatives and
28:28
Speaker 2: things are ideas of what you feel you should do
28:30
Speaker 2: or you ought to do. Well, if I ever hear
28:33
Speaker 2: my mind say you'd better do this. You know, you
28:37
Speaker 2: should go and visit your mum today or something. I
28:40
Speaker 2: stop and they hang on, It's not that I should
28:43
Speaker 2: visit my mum. Do I want to? Or do I
28:45
Speaker 2: not want it? You know, part of me does want to,
28:48
Speaker 2: but but other parts want to do other things. Well,
28:50
Speaker 2: what is the greater part of me? You know, what
28:52
Speaker 2: does the real me overall want to do? And so
28:56
Speaker 2: it's I think it's much more important to say what
28:59
Speaker 2: do I want to do? What do I plan to do?
29:02
Speaker 2: Or I aim to do rather than I ought to
29:04
Speaker 2: do or I should do so, And all of that
29:07
Speaker 2: comes from having a clear sense of yourself. A lot
29:11
Speaker 2: of these negatives are actually ideas that have been brainwashed
29:16
Speaker 2: into your head as you've grown up, telling you that
29:18
Speaker 2: you should behave in a particular way, or do this
29:21
Speaker 2: or do that. Well, it's more of a question. Okay,
29:24
Speaker 2: I'm a big boy, now, I'm a big girl. Now,
29:27
Speaker 2: you know, what do I want to do in this
29:30
Speaker 2: world that I'm in? And yes, I do want to
29:32
Speaker 2: fit in it with everybody, But I also have these
29:35
Speaker 2: desires and needs that I want to fulfill.
29:39
Speaker 1: So is there is there a risk there that you know?
29:42
Speaker 3: Richard Tolkins talks about the selfish gene and how we
29:46
Speaker 3: are driven to be self focused and self oriented, and
29:51
Speaker 3: is there a risk if people are going, well, what
29:54
Speaker 3: I want to do? Well, you know, I don't want
29:57
Speaker 3: to do that for this person. I don't want to
29:59
Speaker 3: go and visit myl mom because I want to I
30:01
Speaker 3: want to scroll on social media. Right, So we're so
30:05
Speaker 3: how do we disentangle that?
30:07
Speaker 2: Then? No, No, humans are not a selfish animal. Yes,
30:11
Speaker 2: there are things we want to do for our own
30:14
Speaker 2: personal needs, but we also like to help people. We've
30:18
Speaker 2: been doing it for millions of years and that's one
30:21
Speaker 2: of the main reasons why we're a successful animal on
30:23
Speaker 2: the planet. We're a communal species. If someone's hurt or injured,
30:28
Speaker 2: we want to help them. You know, we're not the
30:30
Speaker 2: only animal that's kind of like that. But you know,
30:34
Speaker 2: so often what you want to do is to do
30:36
Speaker 2: nice things that help other people. I mean most of
30:39
Speaker 2: what you do is like that. You know. I want
30:42
Speaker 2: to spend time with my kids and my grain because
30:44
Speaker 2: I want to help them. Okay, yeah, I could go
30:48
Speaker 2: fishing or play golf for you know, go surfing, and
30:52
Speaker 2: I will do those things because I want to do them.
30:55
Speaker 2: But I also want to do these nice, caring things
30:58
Speaker 2: that help other people. I love going to work. I
31:01
Speaker 2: love helping people at work. I bet you love helping people,
31:05
Speaker 2: you know, And if you can do with what you're doing,
31:07
Speaker 2: you get to help a lot of people. You know.
31:10
Speaker 2: That's something that makes you feel good. You could turn
31:13
Speaker 2: that around and say, oh, you're just being selfish. You're
31:15
Speaker 2: helping those people because it makes you feel good. Well
31:18
Speaker 2: it does, but you know, do you know what I mean?
31:22
Speaker 1: So that's utilitarian selfishness.
31:25
Speaker 2: So I'm just trying to explain that to do the
31:28
Speaker 2: things that you want to do is not being selfish
31:32
Speaker 2: all the time. I mean, some people probably are that
31:35
Speaker 2: there is self centered they don't care about others and
31:37
Speaker 2: maybe they are being too selfish. And you could probably
31:40
Speaker 2: point that out that that's how you see it in
31:42
Speaker 2: them and hear how they describe it. Maybe they're just
31:46
Speaker 2: people when they're trying to survive and they're really struggling,
31:49
Speaker 2: they naturally find it hard to help other people.
31:53
Speaker 3: And sometimes and the other class are narcissists, right, they'll help,
31:56
Speaker 3: they'll help other people if they think it's going to
31:59
Speaker 3: help them get up the ladder.
32:00
Speaker 2: But Paul, that's one of those labels. And this is
32:05
Speaker 2: the thing with identity that that really bugs me that
32:08
Speaker 2: people and it's a great saeople you're a narcissist.
32:13
Speaker 3: It's a great segue to talk about a dentify kiss
32:17
Speaker 3: because I know you like to talk about this.
32:19
Speaker 2: So what does.
32:22
Speaker 3: When does explanation become identification?
32:26
Speaker 2: Right?
32:26
Speaker 1: And what are they what are the issues with those labels?
32:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Look, I think everyone should feel good
32:35
Speaker 2: about who they are as a person right now. You
32:39
Speaker 2: might have some narcissistic tendencies, yes, but you're a good
32:42
Speaker 2: person with some narcissistic tendencies. I don't think it's right
32:46
Speaker 2: to label the whole person. This is what people do,
32:49
Speaker 2: they'll see one or two little negative features and they'll
32:52
Speaker 2: judge the whole person on that. People are so complex,
32:56
Speaker 2: you know. A mother asked me what's the most important
33:00
Speaker 2: for kids when they grow up, and I said, well,
33:04
Speaker 2: I think the most important thing is that they've got
33:06
Speaker 2: a good sense of self, that they understand who they are.
33:10
Speaker 2: And not only do they understand who they are, but
33:12
Speaker 2: they feel good about themselves. If they have that, they'll
33:15
Speaker 2: have enough self belief to manage all that life throws
33:19
Speaker 2: at them and they'll be able to work out the
33:21
Speaker 2: rest of themselves. I said to her, what do you
33:24
Speaker 2: think it is and she said, well, I think they
33:26
Speaker 2: need to feel loved, which I thought and I said, wow,
33:32
Speaker 2: that's interesting, and I said, you know what, what you're
33:35
Speaker 2: saying is kind of similar to what I'm saying, but
33:37
Speaker 2: just from that different angle, that sort of motherly loving
33:42
Speaker 2: sort of angle. But it still comes down to, you know,
33:45
Speaker 2: when you feel loved, you feel good about who you
33:48
Speaker 2: are inside, and it definitely helps when people love you.
33:51
Speaker 2: But the important thing is then you can be your
33:54
Speaker 2: true self and the negative aspects you can see them
33:59
Speaker 2: out to the side. Getting back to your question, I
34:05
Speaker 2: think these days and people look stuff up online very
34:08
Speaker 2: quickly see a few characteristics that they feel they have
34:12
Speaker 2: in their personality, and they quickly come up with some
34:15
Speaker 2: kind of thesis and diagnosis, and they kind of label
34:19
Speaker 2: themselves based on that, Oh, I'm a bipolar, I'm a
34:22
Speaker 2: narcissist or whatever. Well, actually, not many people say I'm
34:26
Speaker 2: a narcisst that's the exception. Yeah, But you know, in
34:34
Speaker 2: my mind, people have a good core with a hell
34:38
Speaker 2: of a lot of talents and abilities, and that's the
34:41
Speaker 2: center of themselves. But we're not perfect, and we certainly
34:44
Speaker 2: can work on the imperfections that we've acquired and we're
34:48
Speaker 2: carrying on and we do want to get them smaller.
34:52
Speaker 2: But my approach generally is, rather than focusing on these
34:55
Speaker 2: needatives and problems, focus on your true self more. And
35:00
Speaker 2: I imagine these problems weren't there, what would you be doing
35:03
Speaker 2: in your life anyway? Well, why don't just get on
35:06
Speaker 2: with that now and just do it? I've seen it.
35:10
Speaker 2: So if you're coaching football teams and things like that,
35:12
Speaker 2: you can everyone's dropping the ball or whatever. You can
35:15
Speaker 2: focus on why you're dropping the ball. But if you
35:19
Speaker 2: focus on the hey, let's pass it. Better and focus
35:22
Speaker 2: on the positive aspects of it. People feel better and
35:26
Speaker 2: they go better and the team goes better. So in
35:31
Speaker 2: the medical sense of it, I just think there's a
35:33
Speaker 2: bit too much focus on the diagnoses, which become labels,
35:37
Speaker 2: and people get caught up in the identities of them
35:40
Speaker 2: and then they're really on an unhelpful track. It's not
35:44
Speaker 2: it doesn't work.
35:45
Speaker 3: I think that's the real ugly side of psychology and psychiatry.
35:51
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we both know, both of us
35:54
Speaker 3: know you probably better than me, that psychiatry has seved
35:58
Speaker 3: people's lives, right, that medications have see of people's lives.
36:01
Speaker 3: That for some people, you know, having a libel gives
36:05
Speaker 3: them an understanding of stuff, But it can also I
36:09
Speaker 3: think it can be very very damaging because people kind
36:13
Speaker 3: of just give up and they go you know, I
36:17
Speaker 3: have anxiety. I've heard people talk about my depression and
36:20
Speaker 3: my anxiety, and in my head, I'm fucking screaming.
36:25
Speaker 1: Don't don't call it that.
36:27
Speaker 3: I sometimes struggle with anxiety, right, Sometimes you know, I
36:33
Speaker 3: feel depressed. That's very different than I am depressed or
36:36
Speaker 3: I'm anxious or in my expression, my anxiety.
36:40
Speaker 1: Right, And how do people are they are unwined.
36:45
Speaker 3: Sorry, and just to finish this, I think it's got
36:47
Speaker 3: a lot worse with the loosening with every issue of
36:52
Speaker 3: the DSM where there's more and more diagnosed. There's a
36:56
Speaker 3: freaking diagnosis for everything. And you know that what's his name, professor,
37:02
Speaker 3: His name will come to me in a minute. He's
37:05
Speaker 3: a co author of the Maudsley de prescribing Guidelines, and
37:08
Speaker 3: he's been on my podcast.
37:09
Speaker 1: He said that with the leadst issue of the DSM.
37:12
Speaker 3: Right, and this guy's a psychiatrist, he said, eighty five
37:15
Speaker 3: percent of people meet the criteria for a mental health disorder. Yeah, well,
37:20
Speaker 3: they go, we're all crazy for me, this is psychiatry
37:26
Speaker 3: minting patients.
37:28
Speaker 2: Well, look, you know the thing is I kind of
37:30
Speaker 2: thank human beings for some reason. We kind of do
37:33
Speaker 2: like to label things. We've labeled all the living creatures
37:36
Speaker 2: on the planet with mammals and arthropods and et cetera,
37:40
Speaker 2: et cetera, And in medicine and modern medicine, it's worked
37:44
Speaker 2: pretty well when it comes to physical things like labeling
37:47
Speaker 2: the different heart conditions, the different cancers, the different all
37:51
Speaker 2: these things. And they've got different treatments that work in
37:54
Speaker 2: different situations.
37:55
Speaker 3: And importantly they all have a clear biological signature on
37:59
Speaker 3: the health issues.
38:01
Speaker 2: Yes, you can diagnose them much more concisely with some
38:04
Speaker 2: X rays and blood tests and things that go together.
38:07
Speaker 2: So the medical profession has tried to apply that same
38:11
Speaker 2: model for mental health stuff, and for a couple of
38:14
Speaker 2: things it works, Okay, maybe schizophrenia, maybe a major depression,
38:19
Speaker 2: maybe bipolaris major bipolartis or the type one. But then
38:24
Speaker 2: there's a whole lot of wishy washy stuff. And that's
38:28
Speaker 2: where all these thousands of diagnoses and labels are for
38:31
Speaker 2: the wishy washing stuff. And people are having these wishy
38:35
Speaker 2: washy problems because they're kind of mixed up about who
38:40
Speaker 2: they are and the way they're managing their life is
38:43
Speaker 2: not in a way that suits their true self. So,
38:46
Speaker 2: for me, the cornerstone, most important, fundamental thing that people
38:51
Speaker 2: have got to get right is this sense of who's
38:54
Speaker 2: the real me? What are I natural in a talents
38:58
Speaker 2: and natural inclination, and what do I like versus what
39:03
Speaker 2: I don't like. There's no point spending your life doing
39:07
Speaker 2: things that just don't come easy to you know, You've
39:10
Speaker 2: got to find and the world's a big place there's
39:12
Speaker 2: lots of things going on, there's lots of different ways
39:15
Speaker 2: you can survive and make money, and individuals, young people
39:19
Speaker 2: growing through need to work themselves out first and then
39:23
Speaker 2: apply that to what's happening in the world. There's a
39:26
Speaker 2: job for them somewhere. There's people out there that'll get
39:29
Speaker 2: on with somewhere that getting that sense of identity right
39:34
Speaker 2: is a starting point for everything.
39:36
Speaker 3: The way, I think it's hugely, hugely important to understand,
39:41
Speaker 3: as you said, your identity. I have a slight different
39:44
Speaker 3: tike on yours, but it's like very nuanced. You talk
39:48
Speaker 3: about true self, and we like to talk about your
39:50
Speaker 3: best self. So what is my best self do? And
39:54
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff. It's kind of, you know, similar
39:57
Speaker 3: to yours.
39:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're putting pressure on people, you know, you
40:00
Speaker 2: got to Why do you always have to be the best?
40:02
Speaker 2: You know, it's like kids these days. Like in my day,
40:06
Speaker 2: you know, I played rugby. We would have one training
40:09
Speaker 2: session a week. We played the game, wasn't that big deal.
40:12
Speaker 2: We did art, we did music, but you didn't have
40:14
Speaker 2: to be the best at it.
40:16
Speaker 3: I find love this, no, no, no, but but but
40:18
Speaker 3: this is this is this is the news is about
40:20
Speaker 3: being the best that you can be. So going on
40:23
Speaker 3: to that rugby pitch, like what what what is Jeremy
40:26
Speaker 3: really good at on the rugby pitch? You know, as
40:29
Speaker 3: you're going on thinking about your strengths rather than thinking
40:32
Speaker 3: about your negative Maybe.
40:33
Speaker 2: I needed maybe I needed you as my coach back then.
40:37
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, any sports I call it.
40:40
Speaker 3: You show me a world class athlete, I'll show you
40:42
Speaker 3: someone who who does a lot of visualization about the
40:45
Speaker 3: best self about their talents.
40:47
Speaker 1: I think we're very similar. We're just using very slight
40:49
Speaker 1: different terms.
40:50
Speaker 2: I agree with you, But you know, I mean as
40:52
Speaker 2: I say, like I'm a family doctor. See, there's lots
40:55
Speaker 2: of different people. There's a lot of people who don't
40:57
Speaker 2: really care about being their best self actually, and there's
41:00
Speaker 2: probably nothing wrong with that. You know, you don't all
41:03
Speaker 2: have to be the best. What I think is important
41:06
Speaker 2: is to be doing things because you enjoy them. When
41:10
Speaker 2: you're doing it, you feel a positive inner energy. Suctually
41:13
Speaker 2: you want to do that. You don't care if you're
41:15
Speaker 2: the best at it or the worst at it. You
41:17
Speaker 2: like doing it. You're going to do it anyway, do
41:19
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And so for me, I
41:22
Speaker 2: think in your day to day life, just having an
41:24
Speaker 2: awareness of how you're feeling. Sometimes you're doing something and
41:28
Speaker 2: you think, oh, this is not right for me. You know,
41:31
Speaker 2: I don't like this. You know someone else is loving it,
41:35
Speaker 2: you know, but that's not your thing. Or you might
41:38
Speaker 2: hear people talking about what they're doing, and one person
41:42
Speaker 2: what they're saying, you think, wow, that's incredible. You can
41:45
Speaker 2: feel an excitement in your chest and you think that's
41:48
Speaker 2: something I must do. I like to do that, you know.
41:53
Speaker 2: So just having an awareness of the things that you're
41:56
Speaker 2: not trying to find happiness or trying to be good
41:59
Speaker 2: at anything, but noticing your own natural energies, and every
42:03
Speaker 2: time you get a surge of positive and er entergy,
42:07
Speaker 2: you're onto something. This is something that's right for me.
42:09
Speaker 2: I wonder what it is, you know exactly?
42:12
Speaker 3: So to answer me this then, so I'm going to
42:15
Speaker 3: play a little bit of Devil's Advocate.
42:17
Speaker 1: Right. So, someone has been told that they need.
42:21
Speaker 3: To exercise more work because they have diabetes or whatever.
42:26
Speaker 3: It's just just just to pick up for an example,
42:30
Speaker 3: and they're listening to this podcast and they're going, well,
42:32
Speaker 3: Jeremy saying that if I don't like it, if I
42:35
Speaker 3: don't truly like it, my true self doesn't like exercise,
42:38
Speaker 3: I shouldn't do it.
42:40
Speaker 2: Okay. I go through this a lot with people. You've
42:44
Speaker 2: got someone, they're overweight, they've got diabetes, they're smoking, drinking
42:49
Speaker 2: too much, and you say, hey, do you understand this,
42:52
Speaker 2: Like if you keep doing this, you're going to die
42:54
Speaker 2: or you go blind or something terrible is going to happen?
42:57
Speaker 2: Like does that not bother you? And they go, yeah,
43:00
Speaker 2: but I've just never I'm out. You know, I'll try.
43:04
Speaker 1: You know, I don't like it, So they're going to
43:07
Speaker 1: I don't like exercise, they don't like me. I like smoking.
43:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know, so I will ask them, Okay,
43:14
Speaker 2: is there a part of you that actually does is
43:17
Speaker 2: not happy with this and does want to change? And
43:20
Speaker 2: people say, yeah, there is. There's a part of me
43:23
Speaker 2: that knows that I should change these habits. But there's another,
43:27
Speaker 2: a stubborn part of me that doesn't like being told
43:29
Speaker 2: what to do. And that's and so when you get
43:33
Speaker 2: into it, why why do some people where it's obvious
43:37
Speaker 2: that they should change their ways and do something different,
43:40
Speaker 2: why don't they do that? And the reason is there
43:43
Speaker 2: some parts in their mind that I just don't want
43:47
Speaker 2: to do it for some reason, and it's it's interesting
43:49
Speaker 2: to try and get to understand those parts of your mind. Now,
43:54
Speaker 2: what I often find with people a lot of the
43:56
Speaker 2: parts that are stopping them from taking the constructive road forward,
44:01
Speaker 2: negative little thinking patterns they've acquired in their head. So
44:05
Speaker 2: if I can dive back into their background as to
44:07
Speaker 2: where did that come from, and then with a greater
44:12
Speaker 2: understanding and say, okay, so that came from this negativity,
44:15
Speaker 2: perhaps from your mum or your dad or something. But
44:19
Speaker 2: that's getting in the way. But what does your true
44:22
Speaker 2: self want to do? If you didn't have any of that,
44:24
Speaker 2: what would you be doing there? And so this is
44:27
Speaker 2: a way of helping people because when you make your
44:30
Speaker 2: decision what do I want to do? Do I want
44:33
Speaker 2: to exercise and get healthy or do I want to
44:35
Speaker 2: stay unhealthy and die early. To come up with the
44:40
Speaker 2: right approach there, you need those positive parts of your
44:43
Speaker 2: mind to be in control, like they're driving your car.
44:47
Speaker 2: But often what happens with people is there's dysfunctional negative
44:50
Speaker 2: forces that they've allowed to take control, and you're letting
44:55
Speaker 2: them drive your car off a cliff sort of thing. Well,
44:59
Speaker 2: this will takes sort of understanding and and understanding things
45:03
Speaker 2: in dick. So I don't usually go around and try
45:05
Speaker 2: and tell people what to do, but I try and
45:08
Speaker 2: get them to understand these forces that they've got within
45:11
Speaker 2: them and try and separate times then they can really
45:16
Speaker 2: take control.
45:17
Speaker 3: Yeah makes sense, Yeah, no, absolutely, you know it's it's
45:20
Speaker 3: it's kind of motivational interviewing and you know, behavioral science
45:24
Speaker 3: and autonomy and.
45:25
Speaker 1: All of that kind of stuff, which is hugely important.
45:28
Speaker 3: Now, you you will have seen, like so many people
45:31
Speaker 3: across the years as a family medicine doctor and GP
45:35
Speaker 3: you'll have seen you'll have people who are in almost
45:39
Speaker 3: every week with an issue, and you know, probably lately
45:43
Speaker 3: you'll have seen people who come with a pre prepared
45:45
Speaker 3: diagnosis and just want you to write a script. And
45:47
Speaker 3: then you'll also been people in your your thing where
45:50
Speaker 3: you might see some of the family and others of
45:52
Speaker 3: them you've never seen them before, or you see them
45:55
Speaker 3: once every ten years.
45:56
Speaker 2: That's right.
45:57
Speaker 1: So what have you formed of view on what sapar?
46:02
Speaker 3: It's like the people who are constantly coming to the doctors,
46:06
Speaker 3: to the people who are hardly ever there are although
46:09
Speaker 3: the let's take the people with the head buried in
46:11
Speaker 3: the suns, right.
46:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and look, I think there are people that
46:16
Speaker 2: have got this good, positive standard approach to life that
46:20
Speaker 2: they are actually in touch with themselves. They know they're
46:23
Speaker 2: they're true in a self, and they know what they
46:25
Speaker 2: want to do with life. If a problem comes along,
46:28
Speaker 2: they might come to me for some advice to fix it.
46:30
Speaker 2: But once that is that is fixed, they're out there
46:34
Speaker 2: in the world again, and they don't really need me
46:36
Speaker 2: very much. Yeah. Those people who've got this mixed up
46:39
Speaker 2: sense of self there, they don't have that sense of eye.
46:43
Speaker 2: You know, what do I want to do? That's half
46:45
Speaker 2: the reason they come in to see me. So what
46:48
Speaker 2: should I do? Jeremy tell me what I should do
46:51
Speaker 2: with it? You know. The other people they can work
46:55
Speaker 2: out for themselves what they want to do, you know.
47:00
Speaker 2: But so yeah, it's this mixed bag, mixed way of
47:03
Speaker 2: thinking about yourself that I think is the main reason
47:06
Speaker 2: why some people so much more stress and more problems
47:11
Speaker 2: and people they get a lot more anxiety, and anxiety
47:13
Speaker 2: generates bodily symptoms. They're coming in with all irritable bow,
47:18
Speaker 2: tummy troubles, headaches, you know, palpitations, all the stressful things,
47:24
Speaker 2: which half the time they end up going And you know,
47:27
Speaker 2: they've all seen cardiol it as, gastros specialists, all the
47:30
Speaker 2: different medical specialists who don't really find terribly much wrong
47:33
Speaker 2: with them, but nonetheless they keep having a lot of symptoms.
47:37
Speaker 2: So yeah, So this is the thing, and the reason
47:41
Speaker 2: why I wrote this book Understand your True Identity is
47:44
Speaker 2: because in all the different places I've worked, I've worked
47:48
Speaker 2: in cities and country towns, and I think people are
47:50
Speaker 2: kind of the same probably all over the world that
47:54
Speaker 2: you know, the humans, they're humans. A lot of them
47:58
Speaker 2: have kind of got life worked out and they they're
48:00
Speaker 2: in touch with themselves and they're living their life in
48:03
Speaker 2: a way that works quite wealth. And there's other people
48:06
Speaker 2: that haven't quite got this figured out. They've got caughter.
48:09
Speaker 2: A lot of them have had more trauma and bad
48:11
Speaker 2: things happen in their upbringings and that's created the problem.
48:16
Speaker 2: But out of all those ones who've had that trauma,
48:19
Speaker 2: some of them have managed to put the pieces in
48:21
Speaker 2: the right place and get on with their lives constructively.
48:24
Speaker 3: So and you think a lot of that's doing because
48:27
Speaker 3: they've got clear on their identity and their truth self.
48:30
Speaker 2: So I mean, I'm just as a family doctor. I've
48:34
Speaker 2: always just been mainly interested in people. You know, some
48:37
Speaker 2: doctors they just love kidneys, kidney disease or hearts. I'm
48:42
Speaker 2: interested in all those things. But more than that, I'm
48:45
Speaker 2: just interested in people to be like you, Like, what
48:48
Speaker 2: makes you tick? Why do you do what you do?
48:50
Speaker 2: They're the sort of questions that I love talking to
48:54
Speaker 2: my patients about. And I find it just fascinating that
48:56
Speaker 2: just all the different ways that people think and the
48:58
Speaker 2: way different ways people live their lives, and some people
49:02
Speaker 2: are more productive and happier than other people. And so
49:07
Speaker 2: I guess the learnings that I've come and how that
49:10
Speaker 2: translates to how you deal with people, how you manage
49:14
Speaker 2: conflicts and your communication, and also how it can flow
49:20
Speaker 2: onto a better feeling in your family or in your
49:23
Speaker 2: teams or your organizations by having this sort of positive
49:27
Speaker 2: soundard approach where you keep all the negatives out to
49:29
Speaker 2: the site. So, for example, you know, some places of
49:33
Speaker 2: work can be a really bitchy, horrible place to work,
49:36
Speaker 2: and no one's happy. Everyone's getting caught up in negativity
49:41
Speaker 2: and as horrible you know, and yet you can perhaps
49:46
Speaker 2: there's a change in leadership or management, and suddenly you
49:50
Speaker 2: have a different way of approaching it. With people. You're
49:53
Speaker 2: finding the individual talents and each worker in that company.
49:57
Speaker 2: You're connecting the positives together. Problems you're keeping them separate.
50:01
Speaker 2: You still deal with them, but your sense of the
50:05
Speaker 2: identity of all the people that work in that organization
50:08
Speaker 2: you bring out their best. Or it could be a
50:10
Speaker 2: football team, the same thing when a good coach takes over,
50:14
Speaker 2: brings out the best and gets everyone working constructively together.
50:18
Speaker 2: So essentially, that's that's what I'm talking about with this.
50:22
Speaker 2: This is what I call positive centered models. Let's not
50:27
Speaker 2: just say, oh, let's all be happy, let's all be positive.
50:31
Speaker 2: It's yeah, there's negatives and there's bad stuff happening in
50:35
Speaker 2: the world and in our homes and all over the place.
50:38
Speaker 2: But let's just keep the perspective right, because that's how
50:41
Speaker 2: we can deal with it better.
50:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so, Doctor Jeremy Thompson, thank you very much
50:47
Speaker 3: for your insights on this. I love the idea of
50:51
Speaker 3: really getting clear on your identity and I'm trying to
50:56
Speaker 3: understand your behaviors. And you know that that question you said,
50:59
Speaker 3: way that they do that, I think asking why do
51:02
Speaker 3: I do that as well. It is pretty bloody important, right,
51:05
Speaker 3: So where can people go? So the book is Understand
51:08
Speaker 3: Your True Identity by doctor Jeremy Thompson.
51:11
Speaker 1: Where do we send people?
51:13
Speaker 3: I know probably all good bookstores for that, But do
51:15
Speaker 3: you have a website that we can send people to
51:17
Speaker 3: as well if they want to find out?
51:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an understand your True Identity dot com website
51:23
Speaker 2: and there's doctor Jeremy Thompson dot com as well. Yeah,
51:27
Speaker 2: the book's out in paperback over in the States at
51:30
Speaker 2: the moment. I don't think it's out here in Australia
51:34
Speaker 2: just yet, but I presume.
51:36
Speaker 1: I presume you can do pre orders.
51:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can do pre orders and stuff.
51:39
Speaker 3: And as I have just recently learned publishing my second book,
51:44
Speaker 3: pre orders are actually really good for the author because
51:48
Speaker 3: it starts to then generate a bit of interest from
51:51
Speaker 3: all the distributors. So if you're even thinking about it, guys,
51:54
Speaker 3: get on and pre order his book and then you'll
51:57
Speaker 3: get it as soon.
51:57
Speaker 1: As it arrives in the stores. In industry, if you're
52:00
Speaker 1: in the state, it's just crack on a bait.
52:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I think there's something in it for everyone.
52:05
Speaker 2: I mean I've seen a lot of people in a
52:08
Speaker 2: lot of different situations, you know, growing through various situations
52:12
Speaker 2: in their lives, and I've just put all what I
52:15
Speaker 2: see as a useful learnings into a perspective. And it
52:19
Speaker 2: does include some cognitive behavioral therapy and some of these
52:22
Speaker 2: other techniques that other people are using, and how it
52:26
Speaker 2: all fits together. And I think that there's there's stuff
52:29
Speaker 2: there that pretty much everyone will find helpful for, you know,
52:33
Speaker 2: as a roadmap for how to live your life more happily.
52:37
Speaker 1: Awesome good stuff.
52:38
Speaker 2: Thanks Paul, Thanks having me on.
52:41
Speaker 1: Actually