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People, Process, Tech: Why Your Law Firm Marketing Data is "Dirty" · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello, everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, we're offering up some thoughts on the razor's edge that law firms walk when it comes to associates hiring and managing. In the interview, we've locked in the one and only Ron Latz of legal Fenix in the counter program. Ron rises like the Fenix and in his new forum is still roundly terrible at trivia about famous comebacks. Now, as high time, we discuss the walking contradictions populating your very own law firm. (00:44): Any law firm that employs associate attorneys is walking a very thin tightrope. Training associates effectively is obviously a good thing, but training them so well that you accelerate the pace of which they can launch their own law practices is not so good. Teaching associates to make it rain is great until they start to bring in a large enough book of business that they can take it with them someplace else or again, start their own business. Of course, that's the nature of the beast, and it's pretty much impossible to only allow someone to develop just so much and then artificially stop that development so that they will be just an associate forever. This is, of course, a concern of many business owners. If you're a plumber, you don't want your best people leaving to become competitors either. But in law firms, especially larger law firms, the concerns are heightened because the stakes are more advanced. (01:39): Plumbers do not need to wrestle with the same ethics code that lawyers do, for example, where client choice is really the only calculus of client maintenance when it comes right down to it. This is even more problematic for modern law firms as practice shakeups become more frequent and as each successive generation values more freedom and flexibility and employment than the last. And oh, that sort of thing is not a law firm specialty. Freedom and flexibility, that is. As difficult as it is to draw the line between helping an associate and aiding a potential competitor, it doesn't make good sense to just let attorneys sink or swim on their own because at that point, you're hamstringing your own ability to generate future revenue. Drawing an analogy from the sports world, the existence of free agency does not mean that teams withhold professional development services from or provide a qualitatively lesser version of professional development services to players because those players may at some point sign with another team. (02:41): In other words, if you're not willing to continually and consistently develop your people, just don't hire people. In particular, in striking the appropriate balance between personal self-promotion and corporate brand extension, it's important to give your associates opportunities to build their marketing through law, firms, sanctioned venues, rather than to wish to hold those opportunities and risk your associates finding their niches on their own. Via new marketing channels you may not even be aware of. So here's some thoughts on how you can develop a joint strategy without arresting development. There's maybe not always money in the banana stand. First, publication. Law firm associates should have ample chances to publish in firm organs. If there's a regular newsletter or client alert populated with content written by associates and reviewed by partners, if you get a YouTube channel or use Instagram reels, post their videos. Offer joint authorship/creation opportunities. (03:42): This helps associates to fine tune what they're writing and saying, and it also helps partners who may not have the time to write or record themselves, but who do have some time to review what others have done and can maybe even learn from them. If you're willing to let associates publish at their own sites or through other organizations, make sure to republish what they do in your own media and be grateful for the backlinks they're creating to your website, which should help you in terms of SEO and AEO. And don't think that associates need to publish exclusively on substantive law topics. Acquiring business means being likable. And so a lawyer that publishes content about what she loves, like not just about being a lawyer, but also being an enjoyer of goat yoga is still an asset, although I still haven't figured out. Go yoga. Second, partnerships. (04:30): Part one. It may be tempting for law firms that employ BizDev consultants to utilize them as a sole source of advice on networking for associates, but those resources should be yoked to real life experience that can be attained only through working with a partner who has already figured out how to drive business. Every new or young lawyer should be partnered with a senior lawyer as a marketing mentor as well, especially when it comes to networking. Allowing a new lawyer to see how a veteran lawyer works a room and engages with referral sources is a really important lesson and is often more advantageous in offering that new lawyer nothing more than the baptism by fire. There's a reason most parents offer swimming lessons rather than just throwing the kid into a pool and allowing that child to learn on their own or die, I suppose. Senior lawyers can help new lawyers develop their marketing jobs so that they can enter solo forays with a deeper level of confidence along with some reasonable expectations. (05:27): Plus, this ties someone at the firm into what the associate is doing, so you can keep tabs on the level of risk you're running in terms of a potential departure. Third, partnerships. Part two. But this isn't all about teaching new associates some things. It's also about learning some things from them. This is not the case with every law firm associate, but some of them are bound to be naturally adept at marketing, and all of them have opinions on how they want to receive information about business services. Plus, some of them will be aware of and can develop new marketing strategies that you may not uncover on your own or even see coming, or at least as quickly as they would. In a way, your younger associates represent a perfect focus group for you about how to model your marketing practices for a new generation. Suddenly this is a Pepsi commercial. (06:18): Maybe you should consider a Lemonade account, or maybe it's time to use AI to help you develop marketing content. Perhaps there are viable networking groups you're entirely unaware of. Not to mention current slang six, seven, anyone. If you don't know what that means, you maybe need to hire younger associates. Hosting marketing meetings of associates and then firm-wide marketing meetings where associates present is a good place to start. In terms of getting insight into their professional acumen and personal vision, you never know where the best ideas are going to come from, so it's important to empower your associates to contribute their best ideas toward the law firm's shared goals rather than eliminating meaningful engagement and forcing them to build a brand entirely separate from yours. Your job and focus should be to extract value from your employees while you have them. When or if they move on, that job just begins again. (07:15): And now, my job begins anew as we're back at it for another interview. In a moment, we'll return with Ron Latz of Legal Fenix, who's putting the lats into legal marketing. No, I don't believe that works. Okay, let's just move on. Interviews next. (07:36): Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I'm simply going to watch some YouTube videos on my phone until I can think of something more to say. Well, I guess I can learn about human evolution at a later time. The pre-Devonian period can wait. Let's interview our guest instead. Our guest today, Ron Latz, the founder of Legal Fenix. Ron, welcome to the show. I feel like I'm very late in getting you on here. This should have happened earlier. Ron Latz (08:06): It's quite all right. You're coming up on a year. It's a moment to celebrate how long Legal Late Night has been in existence, so I appreciate the invite nonetheless, and I'm sure we'll have a really good discussion today, Jared. Jared Correia (08:18): Really regretting that weekly episode schedule. I noticed on your LinkedIn, you were a hockey guy. I believe you played college hockey. Is that right? Ron Latz (08:29): I did. I played at Scranton my freshman year, and then I transferred over to Temple and played for Temple. Fun times, man. Now it's just beer league. Jared Correia (08:41): NHL a possibility? Ron Latz (08:43): No way. No way. I'm too small. I'm too small. Jared Correia (08:46): Okay. Ron Latz (08:47): During college, I couldn't gain weight. It was an issue for me, but I relied on my hands and my speed, and I would let the enforcers protect me. Jared Correia (09:00): What position did you play? Ron Latz (09:01): I was a center. I was a center. I was all over the zone, both sides. That's the real deal. Yeah, no, I loved it. Barely being six foot and 170 pounds soaking wet during college. I wasn't going to be the enforcer or the fourth line brewser. Yeah. Jared Correia (09:18): Not Ron Latz (09:19): Ideal Jared Correia (09:19): For enforcing. Ron Latz (09:20): I was much more of a playmaker, passing the puck, finding the right guys and using my speed to get out of trouble. Jared Correia (09:30): Let me ask you this. You're a marketing guy. How did you get into the marketing space in the first place? And why lawyers? Seems an odd choice. Ron Latz (09:46): Doesn't everybody go into it on purpose, Shared? Jared Correia (09:49): Oh yeah, absolutely. Ron Latz (09:50): Listen, I would say first and foremost, everybody's in sales and I've always been in sales my entire life. The marketing side of it probably originated very, very early in my career when I was either with some of my best buddies who were going door to door selling cut go and trying to market ourselves that way. Or throughout high school and to college, I was in a band and you've got to be really good at sales and marketing in order to get on shows, go on tour, sell merch, and sell tickets. So we were always positioning and selling- You had Jared Correia (10:22): A band that was like you were making money off of it? Ron Latz (10:26): No, we were not making money. But you Jared Correia (10:28): Were breaking even, it sounds like. Ron Latz (10:29): That's pretty good. Yeah. We were playing some decent tours and got on some legs and recorded a couple albums. And I had already left by the time they were signed to a smaller label, but it was definitely something that was more serious than your typical garage band. And we- What Jared Correia (10:46): Was the name of the band? Is it still around? Ron Latz (10:48): It is not. They broke up shortly after signing, actually, but we were called up in arms. A piano indie rock band turned full-blown metal. We got progressively heavier and heavier as we got older. Jared Correia (11:03): That is quite interesting. Ron Latz (11:05): It was a lot of fun, but it got to the point where I couldn't hold up my end of the bargain. I was missing studio sessions. I was missing recordings. I also was a terrible musician, but as far as these guys are super- What did Jared Correia (11:18): You play? Were you the triangle or- Ron Latz (11:20): No, I was. Yeah. I played synth. I played keyboard. Jared Correia (11:23): Oh, hell yeah. Ron Latz (11:24): When we were more of a piano indie rock band, it was a little bit different. And then it got a little more technical or synth when we got bigger and larger and more serious with shows and we recorded an EP and we did some cool stuff. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but we went on some tours out there. Jared Correia (11:45): I will be now. I'm going to listen to some of this shit once we're done. Ron Latz (11:48): There you go. Check it out. Check it out. It could have Jared Correia (11:50): Been a Devo. You're like the synth guy. That's amazing. Did you play the key tar? Ron Latz (11:56): I did not. The way that I even got into the band was they were my best friends. My best friend and best man at my wedding was a drummer. They lost a keyboard player. They had to play a show and they were like, "We'll teach you how to play all the parts." So I learned how to play all the parts. And then they're like, "Do you want to keep playing?" And I'm like, "Yeah, this is cool." So then that lasted another handful of years and then eventually I got exposed. I was terrible anyway. They already knew. Jared Correia (12:26): So this is kind of like a dude perfect situation where your boys from college and Ron Latz (12:30): You're like- It was. I still talk to almost every single one of those guys. Great friends. They grew up in my hometown. Again, I still stay in touch. I played hockey with another one. Another guy started his own HVAC business. Another guy started and owns his own, a really well-known sub shop in New Jersey. We all just kind of went on and did our own things. Jared Correia (12:53): Let's see if we can get some extra streams for up in arms. All right. Here Ron Latz (12:57): We go. Jared Correia (12:58): So we were talking about the marketing thing. So you kind of went to the school of hard knocks, it sounds like, for Ron Latz (13:02): Marketing. Yeah, I just marketed myself and other products. And then I got into Reuters when, this is 15 plus, 16 years ago, where you could spin up a website, throw up four or five blog posts a month, 15, 20 pages, a directory listing, and you would dominate. You'd be very well positioned in your market. So when I got into Reuters, I just, by default, entered into the legal sphere and I haven't left since. So I continue to work with lawyers. Jared Correia (13:36): So you were a marketing consultant independently, and then you went to work for a marketing company, and then you launched Legal Fenix. Did I have that all correct? Correct. So you were on your own, you went in- house, now you're on your own again. What was the decision point for you to be like, "I'm going to launch this legal Fenix thing and see where it Ron Latz (14:02): Goes." I was just really tired of the finger pointing, Jared. Agency blaming the firm, the firm blaming the agency, even if everyone's best interests were top of mind. It's a thing. Someone's always at fault for something where I truly believe that if we're all just in alignment, aiming towards the same goal, rowing in the same direction, the agency wants to do good for the firm so that the firm continues spending money with the agency. And the firm wants the agency to do well so they can increase their revenue and increase their case volume or hit their growth targets. So I'm just here essentially now. What I called it eight, nine years ago, I just called the consulting, now fractionals all the rage, right? But this is much more having a quarterback in the seat to navigate all the pieces of the marketing ecosystem. That's what we do. (14:55): At the end of the day, we ensure the left hand know what the right is doing, that the agency understands the firm's goals and objectives, and that the firm understands the scope of work and why and when the agency is doing it and how it helps their overall just marketing efforts. We kind of broker those conversations so that the lawyers can continue practicing law and the agencies can keep doing what they do best. And that could be a specific channel, whatever it might be, allowing them to do their great work. Jared Correia (15:26): So that makes sense. Got tired of cutting up the blame pie. So I think this fractional is all the rage, you're right. But I think as is typical of law firms, they've come to that a little bit late. So for those people who may not be aware of how that works, what is a fractional C-suite person, like a CMO in this case? Do they work with the law firm and the digital marketing agency? Do they sit between those two? Do they have other ... Are they doing other liaising as well? What does that look like? What should law firms expect if they want to work with somebody like you? Because I think this is still a relatively new thing in the Ron Latz (16:05): Industry. Yeah. (16:06): I think the price tag that comes along with a full-time CMO does give some firms a little bit of sticker shop given it would be one strategic resource that is helping you coordinate all these simultaneous and competing initiatives and campaigns. And what Fractional allows firms to tap into is essentially retaining an individual or a team like myself part of the time in order to help drive their marketing campaigns forward. And that could be from a very strategic level. It could be at the granular channel level. It could be from a technology and infrastructure perspective. Our firms come to us and have their hands in certain pieces of the pie, if you will, based off of their own internal resourcing, their marketing budget, and their goals and objectives. So there are some firms, Jared, that outsource the entire function to Legal Fenix. And we're a little bit ... I don't know about different, but there are models out there where you have a fractional as a single consultant and then a fractional- Yeah, Jared Correia (17:09): Give me your fish. Tell me why you're different. I'm interested to hear. Ron Latz (17:11): We're an outsource team. Every fractional comes with an account director who has shared resources that support their efforts behind them as far as account management, project management, and more like infrastructure management where that comes into play is you need a little bit more support if you have 14 different vendors, you've got multimillion dollar campaigns that are running, you need a lot more pieces in place in order to help keep the trains on the track, if you will. Whereas what I was doing nine, 10 years ago, and even up to the past two or three years is I also had offered individual consulting where that's just one-on-one. I'm trying to help those firms not get price gouge or the wolf pull over their eyes or just some of the downstream impacts they might be thinking about. But as far as the fractional is concerned, we offer more of an outsourced team model. (18:05): And again, depending upon how much of our time that they need, we will offer that to them. Jared Correia (18:12): I mean, it is a significantly different thing to me than just straight up consulting. I mean, I do consulting, but I'm not engaged at the level that you would be engaged in per se. Ron Latz (18:24): And neither am I on the consulting side. Jared Correia (18:27): Yeah. I think in terms of the ... If I'm a law firm and I'm thinking about this, it's the same play for any fractional service, which is I'll get close to or the same level of benefit I'd get from an employee of reduced cost. So the pitch makes sense to me. I think we can move on from the pitch at this point. I thought I did that pretty well. How was that for a sales pitch? How did I do- As somebody who- Ron Latz (18:54): That was great. Jared Correia (18:54): That was Ron Latz (18:55): Great. Jared Correia (18:55): Okay. Yeah, Ron Latz (18:56): For sure. The difference here though between us and others to pile onto that is we are, as far as the agency relationships, completely agnostic and we don't take any kickbacks or commissions. Oh, Jared Correia (19:07): Great. Okay. I'm glad you mentioned Ron Latz (19:09): That. That's a real Jared Correia (19:09): Thing. Ron Latz (19:10): It very much is. You'll see it on LinkedIn. It is very much a real thing where some fractionals are either referring business to agencies and they're not disclaiming that relationship that there is a fee that they get for referring the business, or there are some fractionals that we don't do SEO or paid ad management or build or design websites by design because I think that keeps us in better business alignment. Not hating on anyone that does, but teach their own. Jared Correia (19:36): No, I mean, I do the same thing. I will not take referral fees from other vendors because I think as soon as the cash starts to change hands, you can't be agnostic truly in that environment. All right. So I saw the other day, I don't know the specifics of it, so you can explain it to me, but Robert Williams, Ron Latz (19:57): Who Jared Correia (19:57): Was another ... Well, I met you guys at Mockingbird, Ron Latz (20:01): Calling it Jared Correia (20:02): Sounds company. I thought you were both really good, and now it sounds like you're working with Robert again in some capacity. Can you talk about that a little bit? Ron Latz (20:10): Yeah. So Rob parted ways with the agency probably a year after I did, and started Elevamp, which was a law firm HubSpot CRM consultancy. So he was out there very similar to UF shops out there that focus only on Lomatics or focus only on lead docket. Jared Correia (20:34): He's Ron Latz (20:34): Like Jared Correia (20:34): Customizing HubSpot for firms, basically. Ron Latz (20:38): From the ground up, complete either setup and configuration implementations or just rebuilds from someone that might not have configured it properly or didn't have the right tracking mechanisms in place, basically. Jared Correia (20:50): Which happens. Ron Latz (20:51): Which does happen on occasion. I'm sure you're aware, right? Everyone's trying to collect that source data, but when it doesn't map to the right fields and different tools, you can't really tell which channel performed the best. (21:03): So it was a great resource for us because anybody that was on HubSpot, I just said, "Hey, check out this guy, Rob." He does everything that you can imagine from a HubSpot perspective. And I did the same thing with Lee Docket and Filevine just because we wanted to stay in our marketing lane. And just over the course of the year, I would keep referring business to him and there were some cross referrals that was happening. And because of most of our clients either being on these tools that I've just divulged here, many of them are also on HubSpot. So we talked about just joining ... This makes sense at this point. Let's join forces. And that officially happened in Q1 where Rob came on board full-time. He's managing operations and technology for us and pretty much standing up our full-blown technical operations consulting services, which is focused specifically on HubSpot builds. Jared Correia (21:57): Congratulations. That's tremendous. Ron Latz (21:58): It's been great. It's been great. Fucking Jared Correia (22:00): Dream team over there. Now here's my real important question. Does Rob play the key tar? Ron Latz (22:06): No, Rob doesn't play the key tar. Rob- Jared Correia (22:08): I feel like a big hole in your business right now is you don't have anyone who's playing the key tar, but I digress. Well, Ron Latz (22:13): I mean, I could jump in there. I need to round out the rest of the pieces, Jared. Jared Correia (22:19): That's true. That's true. Ron Latz (22:20): I need a couple of them. I don't want to give away my instrument. Jared Correia (22:23): But seriously, congratulations. Where you Ron Latz (22:24): Play? Jared Correia (22:25): That's awesome. I don't play shit, man. I'm not Ron Latz (22:27): Musical at Jared Correia (22:27): All. It's embarrassing. I don't sing. I don't play music. I would love to. My dad was an excellent musician, but I don't play shit. It's one of the things I would love to learn to do, but it seems like really hard. I feel like if I tried to learn to play the guitar now, it would be like trying to learn to ski at 40 years old, but I could be wrong. I don't know. Ron Latz (22:50): But can you ice skate? Jared Correia (22:52): No. Ron Latz (22:53): Well, if you can ice skate- I'm bad Jared Correia (22:54): At many things. Ron Latz (22:56): Okay. Well, I would recommend- Jared Correia (22:59): Can't skate. I can't play instruments. This is terrible. Ron Latz (23:04): Start with the piano. Start with the piano. There's plenty of apps now that you can- What's the Jared Correia (23:08): Easiest instrument to learn? Is it a piano? Ron Latz (23:11): Well, I don't think any instrument's easy to learn. Okay. Again, the way that I learned, I played all, like I alluded to earlier, I just played all by ear. I can't read cheap music. Oh, Jared Correia (23:21): Interesting. Ron Latz (23:21): My little guy, my son, he's obsessed with piano and he's playing and I'm like, "Hey bud, you can teach me how to play the real way now, where to actually put my hands and my fingers." And it's great because he loves it and then he can kind of teach me and then I'll remember and can teach it back to him. So it's pretty cool. Jared Correia (23:39): You're a savant. Okay. Let's get back to the marketing stuff. So this is an interesting thing. So you talked about Rob building out HubSpot. You talked about you using Filevine's Lead Docket, which is their CRM. What are your thoughts on law firms using legal tech specific software? HubSpot is not built for lawyers. LeadDocket effectively is. Is there a real difference? What should people be looking at? Does it matter? Ron Latz (24:10): You probably heard me or Rob say this before, but my CRN really is the one that the firm uses because if it's not being adopted and we get no data out of it, then it's pretty much worthless anyway. Garbage in, garbage out. The reason why HubSpot is so attractive, and we're a HubSpot shop, but the reason why I think it's so attractive is given its borderline unlimited customization capabilities. Right. LeadDocket, very familiar with it. Lawmatics as well. I think that there are pieces within it that firms wish that they could change and customize, whether it's through workflows or naming certain objects or different fields or running specific types of reports where a tool that is as open as something like a HubSpot can offer you that level of customization, but with that customization will come a certain level of complexity. If you're able to just build out anything, that does become a challenge. (25:08): So that's why- Jared Correia (25:08): Well, this is the thing. I'm glad you brought that up because when I talk to a lot of lawyers, I'm like, look, you want customizable shit, but the problem is if you can customize anything, it is going to be massively overwhelming to you almost immediately. So you're agnostic as to which tool the firm uses so long as they use the tool. How do you bridge that gap? Let's say you get a law firm that is really excited about the customization capabilities of the software they're buying. Are you like, "Hey, here's some playbooks that you can access so you have some idea of what you're doing." Or are you more like, "Give us your shit. Tell us what you want to do and we'll construct it how you want it to be constructed." What's your method like that you can reveal to the public? Ron Latz (25:53): Yeah. The first, well, technology buys, I think most firms do it backwards and they look at the technology first, then they look at their processes and try to shove it down the people's throats. You really need to do it the opposite way and look at people, process, then technology. So if I understand, if they have an administrator or an operator or a COO in place, they are typically the ones that have all the SOPs on intake and what it looks like once a file is created or a matter is created because quite frankly, once we're into the matter management tool, we're much more hands off. It's pre-lead into lead and CRM where we're trying to show data and trying to see what channels are performing the best. But as far as the system identification, I give them the options. I tell them what I think is going to help with their needs and I tell them to talk to people. (26:49): I'll give them a demo. We run HubSpot. We have plenty of portals where we can show them what HubSpot looks like, or I'll connect them with individuals that are using LeadDocket or are using Lomatics. I want them to take a look at it and get just a baseline feeling and understanding of where things are going to be located. And then I also, through working with the firm, know what their level of technical prowess is. If these firms are having a little bit of trouble with basic- Jared Correia (27:18): You're being very charitable now. It's Ron Latz (27:20): Probably low. Basic systems, we're not going to go for the full-blown customizable solution because no one's going to know how to do anything. I do think a crawl, walk, run can be beneficial as long as we're not looking at completely rebuilding and migrating to another tool within an 18 to 24 month window, because that's painful. Jared Correia (27:40): I'm sure you get some firms who are probably the edge cases who are like, "I want you to do all these things." It sounds like in most cases they're like, "Please, God, help us. What do we Ron Latz (27:50): Do? " Yeah. The ones that want to do ... We do have a client that is more technically advanced, I would say, as much as us. They love it and they use it very well. Where there are others where it's like, you got to remind John and Bob and Mary, you need to use the tool. Every single intake, you have to use the tool. Even if it's an unqualified lead, you need this information in the system, you need it in there, period. There's some levels of criteria in which it wouldn't get in there.That's probably a debate for another time. But either way, yeah, we get an understanding as to how they're using their current technology. If they have a program sponsor internally that will drive adoption, if it's starting at the top, that's going to set us up for success down the road. So we look at those things and then based off of the volume, we make a recommendation and bring in the right people to do so. Jared Correia (28:45): I try to get law firms to design SOPs all the time. And I finally had somebody bite on it the other day. They sent me a hundred page workflow and I was like, "I'm sorry that happened to you or happy that it Ron Latz (28:58): Did." It's never been easier though. We could hop on a call, you throw Fathom or Otter or some note taker in there. You just dictate what happens and then you can tell the AI, "I want to look at this. Look at this from the perspective of a COO, build me out my intake operations. What's going to be my chase sequence?" That's where I think some firms can really leverage. Jared Correia (29:23): And it's funny because it was really effective. And I was like, "How'd you do this? " And he's like, "I built it in Claude cowork, basically." So here you go. There you Ron Latz (29:29): Go. There you go. Jared Correia (29:32): Let me ask you this. So how are law firms doing these days with capturing and leveraging marketing data? Is it getting better? Ron Latz (29:43): I think more firms are aware of it and they are starting to collect the data. It's a start. It's a start. I think the ones that are collecting it now are facing more of a hygiene issue. Jared Correia (29:55): Oh, interesting. Ron Latz (29:56): Yeah. As far as you collect a lot of information, hope Hopefully both qualitative and quantitative data, but it's marrying that data so that you can extract the insights to help you make a better marketing decision. And then it's just adoption. So maybe one intake specialist is completing every single field, another one always leaves out relevant information. So then your reporting on the backend is incomplete or at least you can't rely on it. So while I do think that it is at the forefront and more and more firms know, like 15 years ago when I was talking to firms about using a CRM, what do you mean? What is a CRM? And there's still some of those out there today, but it's less frequent. A lot less frequent. So that's a real challenge because again, we are being brought in to handle a lot of the marketing, but then a lot of our work does lean towards ensuring that this data is clean so we can make decision based upon it. (30:55): That's why you're collecting it to know when you push your chips into the middle, did that produce anything? And that's where you're really trying to connect the pieces together. So I'm glad that we've made that change. It's just on tuning it. Jared Correia (31:13): Again, don't give away the shop here necessarily, but if I'm a law firm, what are the important metrics I'm looking at from an intake perspective? And how many of those are available in the default version of a CRM and then how much do I have to do in terms of custom reporting? Ron Latz (31:30): I mean, on the intake side, each firm is going to have different criteria for what is defined as a qualified lead. So as long as you've got that within your base, so you can collect that information at a contact record level. If an opportunity or a case or a matter is open, you can push it into it and that information will flow. But as far as us, we're looking at some blended and then channel by channel metrics. From the blended perspective, we look at just total marketing performance, calls, chats, texts, and forms. And then what do we pay per lead, per intake or attorney qualified lead or wanted lead, and then acquisition costs. And then we can then see also in between each of those sales stages or intake stages, what the conversion rate is from an MQL to an IQL, from an IQL to a wanted, and then wanted to assign case. (32:28): Because I want to know- Jared Correia (32:29): Can you just identify those acronyms for people who may not be aware of what Ron Latz (32:32): Those are? Yeah. Marketing qualified lead and MQL is going to be your least qualified of all leads. It's everything that comes in. Some firms might jump right to an attorney qualified or a wanted lead depending upon their intake infrastructure, but an intake qualified lead means it's in your practice area, in your GO. It's someone that you would want to work with, but an attorney needs to give the final blessing on it, basically. Once you get to the AQL or a wanted or a qualified opportunity level, it means you want that case. You're sending the engagement letter and you want to be closing at minimum 80 plus percent of those opportunities into signed matters and cases. And then close one is now your client. And every firm that we work with has a little bit of a deviation as to their naming convention as to what they ... Some people call MQLs PNCs. (33:25): They're just or PCs. They're just potential clients. And then they've got their qualification criteria. What's cool about something like HubSpot, we can change the names of those fields if we want to within the object of the CRM so that it's matter, case, or file, whatever you call it, we'll update it for you. Jared Correia (33:42): One acronym to know, ABC, always be closing. All right, I have one more question for you. So in the world of metrics for law firms, how are people doing on the lead or case acquisition cost? Are people only tracking web-based stuff or are people trying to track like, "Okay, I've got referred leads. How much did it cost me to buy this person at Glass of Champagne at a networking Ron Latz (34:11): Event?" Oh, that's a whole nother conversation too about how you're calculating and what you include within that formula for acquisition costs.That's why I like to look at it not only at a channel by channel level, but also you're blended. Everything in one bucket. Yes, you've got your marketing expenses, you've got your branded traditional advertising, billboard radio, TV, bus wrap, along with all of your digital, your referrals, things that come in through the community. Basically, it's just total dollars spent over total cases acquired and now you've got your blended acquisition costs. I think you should always have an understanding of generally speaking, what does it cost us to acquire a case? As you move more into the digital channels, your paid search, so Google ads as well as local services ads, your SEO investment, which also includes local SEO. And then if you want to even look at streaming OTT, CTV because of the retargeting capabilities, basically it allows you to market back to individuals that have seen your ads for the audience there. (35:16): You can get costs and conversions because you could track that back to the campaign level for the most part. Your traditional brand awareness play, right? Sponsoring the Turkey Trot or the 5K or throwing up the billboards or doing your TV commercials, it's a lot harder to then say definitively, this is exactly what converted this client into a retained matter, which is why, again, kind of going full circle here, I think it's important to understand and collect both your qualitative and your quantitative data. You can't create demand for legal services. No one is walking out the door hoping that today is the day that they get into an accident, right? It doesn't happen, but you can create awareness. You can create awareness for your firm, and hopefully you are creating that awareness to a level in which when somebody has a need, they remember you. You are top of mind, know like and trust. (36:17): You're creating enough visibility within the market that people know who you are. Then you've got investments in marketing channels that capture that demand. Maybe it was your ad or your local listening or your SEO result, but now that you know both of those pieces of information, you could start making more educated decisions as to where to put your marketing dollars. And that's why we collect all of it so that we can make thoughtful and strategic guidance to our clients. Jared Correia (36:45): Yeoman's work today, Ron Latz (36:46): Sir. Jared Correia (36:47): Will you hang around for one more segment? Ron Latz (36:50): Yeah, for sure. Jared Correia (36:51): All right. We'll be right back with Ron Lass of Legal Fenix. Welcome back, everybody. That's right. We're at the counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where you can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Ron, welcome back. Ron Latz (37:15): Hey, I appreciate this. I'm more nervous for this part than I was even just jumping on a pod. This stuff with your trivia is not my lane, so I'm going to do the best that I can not to make a complete fool out of myself. Jared Correia (37:27): Well, you made the mistake of being like I'm bad at trivia. You should never tell me that. Ron Latz (37:30): Even though Jared Correia (37:31): I prepped it ahead of time. Ron Latz (37:32): Transparency fault, my friend. Jared Correia (37:34): It's like chum in the water for me. That's Ron Latz (37:37): It. Jared Correia (37:39): So based on legal Fenix, I have a new game I've created called Like The Fenix. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to read you a brief description of a famous comeback story. Your job is to identify the comebacker. It could be fictional characters. It could be real people. I'm going to start you off with an easy one. Ron Latz (38:02): Oh, I have to guess who it is, not just whether or not it's BS. I'm Jared Correia (38:06): Going to give you ... No, they're all real. I'm not making anything up. Okay. I'm going to give you a description. I'm going to give you three choices. You just need to pick the right one. Who knows? You might come out of the woodwork here and get them all right. We'll see. I started with what I think is good. I always tell this to people like, "I'm starting with an easy one." And then if that goes poorly, then it's all downhill from Ron Latz (38:26): Me. It's all right. I'm ready to go down your phones, man. Jared Correia (38:30): This South Paw fighter from Philadelphia plummeted to rock bottom after he humiliating knockout loss and sudden passing of his mentor. Stripped of his title and confidence, he traveled to a gritty California gym for a montage to train with his fiercest adversary before making his comeback. Do you know who this is or would you like? Ron Latz (38:55): I'm going to take a stab just because it's probably the only Philly boxer that I'm aware of. The watch would still be wrong. Is it Beehop? Is it Bernard Hopkins? Jared Correia (39:04): Oh boy. Okay. Let's just do the Q&A. Ron Latz (39:06): Oh, no. Jared Correia (39:08): Is it Apollo Creed, Rocky Balboa or Ivan Drago? Oh, this is Ron Latz (39:14): Great. Paul Queen Rocky Jared Correia (39:16): Balboa. Ivan Drago. Ron Latz (39:17): Oh, I thought it was a real boxer. Jared Correia (39:19): No. Oh, man. See, I'm just being Ron Latz (39:23): Sadistic at this point. No idea. This is bad, Jared. This is bad. Jared Correia (39:31): So there's the statue in Philadelphia of one Rocky Ron Latz (39:36): Balboa who this could Jared Correia (39:37): Be. Ron Latz (39:38): That was his comeback story. There you go. Jared Correia (39:42): You know what? I'm going to give you that one. I'm feeling generous today. We're one for one. No way. I'm giving it to you. I'm giving it to you. Maybe that's exactly Bernard Hopkins' story.That could be on me. Ron Latz (39:54): No idea. I have no idea. Although he just used to work at a coffee shop right down the road, so I would run into him. So I figured out how to throw him some love. Jared Correia (40:03): I'm going to tell you from now on whether it's a real person or a fictional character. Ron Latz (40:06): I appreciate it. Jared Correia (40:08): Number two, real person. Okay. A brilliant Princeton mathematician spent years wandering the halls of the university as a phantom. See, this is a New Jersey question. Silenced by paranoid schizophrenia that derailed a promising career in non-cooperative game theory. Something I'm not familiar with at all. After decades of struggle, he emerged from his mind's shadows to accept a Nobel Prize. Who was this mathematician, real person who had paranoid schizophrenia? Is it John Nash, Alan Turing, or John Van Newman? John Nash, Alan Turing, or John Van Newman? Ron Latz (40:46): What do Jared Correia (40:46): You think? Ron Latz (40:46): Well, I'm sure Turing will be a turning test question, but ... Jared Correia (40:49): It is John Nash. I have a recommendation for you. Ron Latz (40:56): All Jared Correia (40:57): Right. I have a great Russell Crow toofer for you in terms of movies. He played John Nash in a movie called The Beautiful Mind. And then he also played Jim Braddock in a movie called Cinderella Man, which is also about a comeback story about a boxer. So you see, I worked this stuff up. It's all thematic. Ron Latz (41:17): I Jared Correia (41:17): Like Ron Latz (41:17): It. I like Jared Correia (41:19): It. You do the Russell Crow double feature. You will not be sorry. Ron Latz (41:22): All Jared Correia (41:22): Right. We're one for two. Okay. Let me see if I can find ... Okay. I'm going to bounce around here a little bit because I'm trying to throw you a bone here. Ron Latz (41:32): No, don't. You shouldn't. Let me go down. I'm Jared Correia (41:34): Going to do it. I'm going to do it. No.This is a fictional character. Fictional character. After plunging into a dark abyss while battling an ancient demon of shadow and flame, this elderly guide was presumed dead by his companions, who may or may not be hobbits. He underwent a transformation returning in radiant white to lead the final stand against the evil doer. Is it ... You know what? From Lauder of the Rings. I'm just Ron Latz (42:07): Going to throw it out there. Oh my God, no. Jared Correia (42:10): Is it Ceremon, Gandolph or Dumbledore? And only two of those are from Lord of the Rings. Ron Latz (42:17): Gandolph. Jared Correia (42:19): Yeah. Yes. All right. We found an intersecting interest. Ron Latz (42:25): Let me tell you. Jared Correia (42:25): Are you a (42:26): Lord of the Rings guy? Ron Latz (42:27): Never seen a single movie. Jared Correia (42:29): Really? Really? Ron Latz (42:31): I know. And I don't normally admit this, but I will admit it for you because I said how transparent I was. Same thing with Star Wars. This is not the movie trivia. Just trivia in general like this shows. Wait. I should have known Rocky. You Jared Correia (42:44): Never seen Star Wars? Ron Latz (42:46): I haven't, no. Jared Correia (42:47): Any of the movies? Ron Latz (42:49): I have not. I know. I know. People tell me I should not admit that. Jared Correia (42:55): I think it's too late for that now. Ron Latz (42:57): It's all good. It's all good. I'll stand by it. I'll stand by it. But I should have known Rocky. Jared, I should have known Rocky. Jared Correia (43:05): I don't like Star Wars and I have only seen one of the movies. The Star Wars episode three where was young. Ron Latz (43:15): So much better. It really does. Jared Correia (43:18): I think the Space Offer stuff is kind of hokey and shitty. So I'm just going to throw it up. I'm going to land on that grenade for you. I'm that kind of guy. Ron Latz (43:25): Thank you. You're a good guy. Jared Correia (43:27): Okay. Let's do another one. From the category of Ron Latz (43:31): The automotive- I got to end on the high note, Jared. I can't go. I got Gandolf. What do you Jared Correia (43:35): Mean? Should we just stop? Do you want to ask me a trivia question? You got one? Ron Latz (43:44): No, I'm sure I could pull one up on chat if I wanted to real quick. Jared Correia (43:47): Well, here's the thing. Let's do this. Let's depart from our usual process. I got one more trivia question. I'm going to tee up for you. Ron Latz (43:56): And Jared Correia (43:56): Then while I'm asking it, why don't you give me a trivia question from ChatGPT or whatever. Make it as hard as you can. We're going to do this live. Be a real dick about it. Punish me. Okay. So from the automotive industry, and remember you have a one of three chance here, so you got some odds here. Fired from a top executive position at a major automotive giant following a personality clash with the owner. He took the helm of a failing rival. He secured a massive government loan and revolutionized the auto industry with the introduction of the minivan. This is basically the guy who created the minivan. Ron Latz (44:34): All right. Jared Correia (44:35): Is it Henry Ford II? Lee Iakoka or John DeLorian? Inventor of the minivan. Henry Ford II. Lee Iakoka or John DeLorian. Ron Latz (44:46): Icoka. Jared Correia (44:47): Correct. You ended on a high know. Three out of four. All right. You got one for me? Ron Latz (44:52): Let's do this. No, it was two. Is it two? It was two out of four, not three. You can't give me Rocky. Jared Correia (44:58): Two and a half out of four. Ron Latz (44:59): Let me ask you this. Philadelphia. Do you know what a Gordy Howe hat trick is? Jared Correia (45:07): Gordy Howe Hatrick. Hatrick in a single period? Ron Latz (45:13): No, that would be natural. Jared Correia (45:15): Okay. No, I don't know what a Gordy Howe Hattrick is. That was a total guess. Ron Latz (45:18): It's a goal? Jared Correia (45:19): What is it? Ron Latz (45:19): An assist and a fight in one game. Jared Correia (45:23): Oh, that's great. I love that. Okay. Ron Latz (45:24): Yeah. Jared Correia (45:26): Was that your trivia question? You got any more from me? Ron Latz (45:28): No, that was my trivia question. Jared Correia (45:30): Okay. Okay. Brought it back to hockey. Well, see, we came full circle for the Ron Latz (45:34): People. Perfect. Jared Correia (45:35): We learned some stuff. Ron Latz (45:37): Couldn't have teed it up better. Jared Correia (45:38): Ron, thanks for coming on. Ron Latz (45:39): Thanks, guys. Jared Correia (45:41): Thanks for our guest today. That's Ron Latz, the founder of Legal Fenix. Throwing more about Ron and Legal Fenix. Visit LegalFenix.com, but wait, it's Legal Fenix, F-E-N-I-X. F-E-N-I-X, LegalFenix.com now. Because I'll always be a '90s kid who nevertheless thinks ultimate Frisbee is stupid, that's right, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record, where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist, I wanted to do something special. So I created a really special playlist. That's right. It's songs with special in the title or prominently presented in the lyrics or bands with special in their name. And this very special episode playlist is brought to you by Stonewall Kitchen. Actually, that's incorrect. While Stonewall Kitchen does offer specialty jams and condiments, they did not sponsor us today, but hit me up and don't be shy about sending me that free swag. (46:50): Join us next time when I remove the scales from my eyes using Dawn dishwashing liquid. Hey, if it works for oily otters, it can work for me.