Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / The Art of Mindful Engagement: Using EAR Statements Judiciously
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:23): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we're going to talk about ear statements, statements that show empathy, attention and respect. Are they for everyone? Are they for all high conflict people or just some? And if so, which ones do they work well with? But first, a couple of notes. Send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Speaker 1 (01:10): Alright, bill, let's get started. So I was given a training a few weeks ago and was talking about the five high conflict personality types. And I had already mentioned a little bit about ear and hadn't given a lot of training yet about what ear statements are used for, but I'd been using them as part of the training in a story along the way to kind of give the audience a real life look at when to use an ear statement and what high conflict looks like. So they kind of had a little bit of a nod about what it was I was aiming at, but they hadn't been trained. However, one of the participants raised his hand and said, look, we deal with, and this was a court setting, and he said, we deal with everything from criminal matters to family matters to civil matters. And it doesn't seem to matter where we are. We get some high conflict cases. I can't imagine that your statements are going to work well with everyone. And I kind of knew what he was getting at. I think maybe the antisocial and narcissistic personality types perhaps why would I give them an ear statement? So I thought it might be if he was interested in it, I suspect our listeners might be as well. So what say you, bill? Speaker 2 (02:27): Well, first of all, let me say a little more about your statements. So empathy, attention, and respect. So it's really coming up with a short statement that shows one or two or all three of those that when people are upset, they need a sense of connection from the people around them or a particular person such as you. And so for example, an air statement could be, I can see how frustrating this is. I hear your disappointment about how this is going. I can see that this is really important in your life. So saying those kinds of things helps people feel seen, feel, heard, feel connected with. Now it doesn't mean you know what they're feeling. That's why I say I can understand or I can see or I can hear. And if you say, I can hear your disappointment, they say, I'm not disappointed. And say, oh, okay. Speaker 2 (03:30): But most of the time people like hearing that you can see them because it looks like you're equals and it looks like you're not looking down on them. Like sympathy. Empathy is connecting as equals. Thinking of a phrase that fits the situation, that starts with I can understand, I can see, I can hear is often really helpful. And just that one statement, just a sentence may help calm somebody down. I can see how important this decision is to you today. And in court cases where we are and talk to court professionals a lot, that's important because people are in court feeling very vulnerable. They're going to win or they're going to lose on an issue. And we teach judges, just give 'em an your statement. It's like 30 seconds doesn't take much time at all, but lets them know that you can see that this isn't the easiest thing for them. Now a attention is saying, I'll pay attention, tell me more. I want to understand. And that also helps people feel seen and heard. Speaker 3 (04:44): I've got all day, Speaker 2 (04:48): Maybe not. Yeah, well, the thing is it doesn't take all day if you're fully attentive. And that's the thing they talk about full attention. If you give somebody your full attention, it's a lot faster really to get things out and to say what they need to say. Now the third part, respect. So a statement that shows respect. I respect the kind of work you do. I respect your commitment to solving this problem. I respect your time, I respect your relationship with our daughter, with our son. People really in the world today feel a shortage of respect and they really like to hear respect. So those are of the three kind of ingredients that really help you connect and help people calm down and feel like we're human beings that care about each other. Now, it doesn't mean that you're going to fix all their problems. Speaker 2 (05:47): It doesn't mean you necessarily even believe what they've said. They may have said something happened yesterday that sounds real strange, but you want to help them. With that said, you can use that with high conflict people. We developed it for high conflict people because very on edge a lot of the time and angry and blaming. And if they're blaming, you can give them in your statement say, wow, I can see how frustrated you are. Tell me more. I really want to understand. And boom, they're calmed down and they're talking. Now more much of the time, I say your statements work about 90% of the time at calming people. Now also, if somebody's sad, somebody's in tears, you can say this to them. And you don't have to figure out if somebody have a pattern of high conflict behavior, which includes blaming others, all or nothing thinking unmanaged emotions, extreme behaviors. Speaker 2 (06:45): That's what we think of as a pattern of high conflict behavior that we talk about high conflict personalities. But anybody that's upset, you can give an ear statement to, you can do this at home, you can do this with your kids. So the idea is it's connecting and it's calming. Now we get to the big question is does it work with everybody? I would say of the five high conflict personality types that we talk about, we're not diagnosing people, we're just giving you background general knowledge. So let's take for example, narcissistic personalities. People who are self-centered try to see themselves as superior to other people feel entitled. All of that, or they get into more conflicts because of that. And yet if the people around them can calm them, then you can decrease the tension. Now what's interesting is people with narcissistic personality traits really like respect. Speaker 2 (07:52): So if you're thinking, I want to give a statement, I don't know, empathy, attention or respect, if you can try to think of something that shows respect, I respect your good record keeper. You brought in some useful information or I respect your time. I had a client who was difficult, ex-husband who may have had antisocial traits. And I said, because antisocial is also respect. They do a lot of bad stuff to get respect, but not all of them, some of them really want respect. And so I said, sprinkle your conversation with the word respect. I respect your relationship with our daughter. I respect your time. I respect your commitment to solving this problem, things like that. And she said this really calmed him down. He was like, oh, good, I appreciate that you respect. I didn't know if you did. And so antisocial and narcissistic personalities really like respect. Speaker 2 (08:57): Now, borderline and histrionic personalities, which are more emotional, are more trying to connect and be cared about, really empathy and feeling that you say a statement, empathy, I can see how upsetting this is to you. I can see how hard this is, how sad this is. All of those things. You're not trying to open up emotions, you're identifying emotions. So I can see this and my experiences, most people with those personality traits really appreciate that and they've got my full attention. And so I'm really tuned in and they immediately calm down and I can do this on the phone, do this on zoom, do this in person. Now the thing to watch out for, which maybe they're looking for is can we do too much of this with the wrong people? And I would say if you give too much empathy, just lots and lots of empathy with someone with narcissistic personality traits or antisocial personality traits, they're going to start manipulating you. Speaker 2 (10:10): So the antisocial is going well, if you really cared about me, you would sign this form for me that says, I get to do all these things that I really shouldn't do. I worked in a substance abuse treatment in a psychiatric hospital, and we get some antisocial addicts and they're highly manipulative and you give them a lot of empathy and they're going to take advantage of you. So better to respect and then move on to let's look at what we can do now, same with narcissists empathy. They're going to start to manipulate that. This isn't to say that borderline and hy history don't like respect, but they're really looking for is empathy Speaker 1 (10:52): And maybe attention acknowledgement. Speaker 2 (10:56): And all of them want attention, and you can give them some attention. You give 'em full attention for five minutes, that may save you an hour of them trying to get your attention. Speaker 1 (11:07): So an acknowledgement, I hear this often from some that I just need to be acknowledged. He didn't acknowledge me. And so if you acknowledge there's a form of attention, right? Speaker 2 (11:20): Yes, yes. Well, I think acknowledgement is paying attention and letting them know I see you and I see what you've done, and I'm acknowledging that. And you're important to me. Speaker 1 (11:31): No one caress about me. Speaker 2 (11:32): Well, there's a lot of people I think that care about you, and I think I can really help you and I want you to succeed. So I'm here to help and help you look for who does care about you. And I professionally care about you. I'm not supposed to be a friend. That's the professional ethics. But within the context of my profession, they do care about you and want you to succeed. Speaker 1 (11:59): And there you have it, podcast listeners, there's Bill, Eddie ear statements on the fly. If he had a microphone, he could do a mic drop. I, and that's how easy it is. But you have to genuinely care and you have to be authentic and just realize that you have to come into this work with compassion. And true compassion means you can use an ear statement even when someone is unlikeable or someone is escalating a lot and saying maybe dropping some F bombs and saying things that aren't very, very nice. Speaker 2 (12:32): And I think it really helps me, and I really agree and want to reinforce that you need to be sincere is I think of high conflict people, people with personality disorders that mostly develops as a result of genetic tendencies, early childhood experiences and the culture they grow up in. None of which do they have control over. So here they are, they're 20 or 30 or 40, and they have abrasive personalities and it's not really their fault. And this is a way to calm them and help them succeed. So I think it's a great way to be compassionate and to pay attention to that. These aren't people that we should dislike. These are people that we should help. Speaker 1 (13:21): And I've been saying this at the start of all my trainings lately, over the years I've been doing it more and more just to help people understand that this isn't someone who ordered this on Amazon. They didn't ask to have an operating system that's sort of programmed this way. And so we have to be informed of how to best help them so they can get through our processes, they can get through our systems. They can even learn to help themselves somewhat. Okay, so now let's think about, I want to ask about the paranoid personality, and then I want to ask about combining ear statements and setting limits. So the paranoid personality, fears, and I mean we're not diagnosing of course and things, but there's a fear of being betrayed. And so what are good ear statements for someone who's sort of just suspicious about most everything? Speaker 2 (14:16): Kind of a combination of all three is I can understand that you don't trust the system and you're worried about working with me that I'm your lawyer or I'm your mediator. And I can understand that you have concerns about that and I respect that. And I respect your boundaries. I'm not going to ask you to open up a lot about things that's not necessary, and I do want to help you. And now here, as with all of the personalities, you give your ear statement and then move into problem solving is say, and I do want to help you and I do respect you and your efforts, and we have some policies we have to follow. So let's look at what your choices are now. So when you've given your statement, you don't have to just, that's the end of the conversation is you can look at, let's look at how I can help you. Now, here's the next step. And so I believe your statement, and then let's look at your options, look at your choices, and that way you're not lingering and the door is open to go back into emotions that you've given your statement. Hopefully there's a little feeling of connection and now you're looking at what you can do. Speaker 1 (15:37): I think that's the part that people kind of forget sometimes is it isn't just your statement alone. Sometimes it is sometimes you can just use one and someone's deescalated, and now things are fine, but you want to be, in most circumstances, pointing to the next step, pointing to the future something, getting them focusing on their options and making choices. Like you said, bill, we also talk about setting limits, which is equal to connecting. It's as important as connecting and all of the skills we use in deescalating individuals and helping manage those who have a hard time stopping themselves. And so I guess the question is, do you just outright set a limit or do you use a little ear plus setting a limit? Speaker 2 (16:26): I think setting limits with ear statements is really the way of the future. No matter who it is, you don't have to figure out who it is. You have to set limits. It has some empathy for the person. I know this may not be what you were looking for. I know this may be hard, and here's the limit. So I'll give you an example. As a lawyer, I was representing a woman who was a victim survivor of domestic violence, and I had to negotiate with her soon to be ex-husband was very disrespectful. And so he'd call up and I have to talk to him. He didn't have a lawyer, and we'd have to work things out for their divorce. And he'd say, you tell that blankety blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, that she's doing everything wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, hang on, hang on. Speaker 2 (17:21): You can't talk about my client that way. If you talk that way, I'm going to have to hang up. And I understand this is hard, but it's very important that you talk civilly in this process. And so please don't use those words. And he said, well, I'll use any words I want. And he starts using them again. And I say, okay, looks like you've made a decision. I have to hang up, so I'm hanging up. You call me back when you're ready to talk civilly. So I feel like in doing that, I wasn't against him. I was stopping the conversation, but I had some empathy for him. This is hard and it's hard to shift gears that quickly. Anyway, he calls up the next day and starts that way. And I say, remember, I'm going to hang up. It's up to you. If you talk that way, I'm going to have to hang up. Speaker 2 (18:13): So really try to hang in there and just talk civilly. And he's like, oh, okay. Yes, yes. Don't hang up. I'm going to try to talk civilly. So by connecting with a person you're setting limits on, I think it adds to the respect in the universe. And it's not easy. I think of times when I was just so focused on setting the limit. I forgot about empathy, attention, and respect. But if you can combine those people often really grow from the experience and think about children that children, they're angry, they're upset, it's bedtime, and it's like, yeah, I know it's hard. I know you want to stay up and it's time to get in bed. Speaker 1 (19:01): No choices. Speaker 2 (19:03): Yeah, sometimes there's no choices. Speaker 1 (19:06): Yeah, interesting. Yeah. My three-year-old and one-year-old grandsons were here a couple of weeks ago, and I just spent much, much, it just gave me ample opportunity to practice explaining choices, giving them choices, and it worked. It makes people think even little ones, no, maybe not the one-year-old, but the three-year-old for sure. Instead of fit throwing, it was, let me think about that. Okay, I don't want to get in trouble. So it's a good thinking tool. Now we've been kind of talking in the capacity of a helping professional in the workplace, so to speak. Now, what if you are in just a neighbor relationship or a family relationship, a friendship or just some brief interchange? And I'll give you an example. Last week I got into an Uber. Immediately the driver let me know. He spoke seven languages. He was a very, very important person and basically wanted me to respect that right away. And so I engaged in a little bit of conversation, and this went on for, it only took about two minutes before I was thoroughly confused. He claimed to be an expert on world cultures. And here we are in this Israeli-Palestinian war, and that's what he was bringing up. And I'm a lone woman in his vehicle. And he became more aggressive and more aggressive over the 20 minute ride. Speaker 2 (20:38): And Speaker 1 (20:38): Yeah, it was starting to get frightening. He was really trying to twist me in knots, like pin me to the wall and agree with his point of view in a very, very emboldened way. So at the beginning, I wasn't necessarily using ear statements, but at the beginning I was trying to just have a conversation because I thought that's all it would be. And as the aggression grew, I used a little bit of ear, but I quickly switched to just setting a limit. And my limit was, I'm not talking to you anymore. I didn't say that, but I just stopped talking Speaker 1 (21:12): Because actually, I'm not a scaredy cat. But I also realized we're living in some challenging times and I needed to set a limit with this person and not let him engage with me. I did actually report him to Uber. They took it seriously. I got the fair refunded. But the point being, I mean, I didn't ask for the fair. That was just an extra, but I wanted there to be limit setting by the employer as well. They need to know. So if you're in that situation where it's just, I mean, I was just taking a ride, right? Getting to my next place and experiencing what was somewhat bullying, I would Speaker 2 (21:56): The tone Sounds like Speaker 1 (21:57): The tone, the tone, the tone, yeah. Just setting. What do you think of that whole interchange? I mean, I didn't, using ear wasn't necessarily a good idea in that it's just set a limit. Speaker 2 (22:12): We don't have to be perfect, Speaker 1 (22:15): Right? Speaker 2 (22:15): But I also think that we do need to protect ourselves, and especially from aggressive behavior, and we have to realize is we can't control other people's behavior, but we can control ours. And so if you decide you're not going to continue the phone call or you're not going to continue the Uber conversation, you're allowed to do that, that people do what you need to protect yourself. Maybe there sometimes is a space for an air statement and sometimes maybe not today. People need to feel allowed or permission to end conversations, especially when they're going badly. One of the things I like to say and think about is that we're all muddling through, and as long as we're stumbling forward, I think that the world will be a better place, but it's not going to be because everybody became perfect. Speaker 1 (23:17): It's true. But I think we do have to get better at setting limits, like you said, with ear. It's a service, I guess, to the world. And as things heat up in conversations, and they are right now, we have to learn to do that and maybe keep our opinions to ourselves. Maybe just don't engage with people in those conversations who have a very extreme or strong opinion and want you to turn to their way. Speaker 2 (23:47): Yeah, I think over and over again that people have the right to disengage. And if you're dealing with high conflict, aggressive people, often the best thing is to disengage because if you yell at them to make them behave and the way you want, that's going to escalate them. They're always on the edge of aggressive behavior in many cases. So just know that you can do what it takes to be safe. And that's another thing is let's say you're in a domestic violence situation. Don't try to calm the other person. Try to get out of the situation. People say, well, what can I say to calm down my abusive partner? And it may be just get yourself to a safe situation and then figure out what to do. So it's not a panacea for everything, but 90% of the time you can calm people with your statement and set limits and give them choices. So it's all possible, but it's not perfect. Speaker 1 (24:58): Yep. Excellent. Bill. And I really loved the right to disengage. Speaker 2 (25:03): Yeah, Speaker 1 (25:04): Maybe we'll change the name of this podcast episode to the Right to Disengage. Maybe not, but I like it. Thanks everyone for listening. I hope this has been helpful to you. Next week we're going to talk about grieving the loss of a high conflict loved one or someone important in your life. Send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Tell all your friends about us, and we'd be very grateful if you'd leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing and be kind to yourself until we all find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.