Latest / Becoming Anchored / Becoming Anchored S4E2: Navigating Mental Compulsions with Jenna Overbaugh

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Becoming Anchored S4E2: Navigating Mental Compulsions with Jenna Overbaugh · Becoming Anchored

0:01
Lauren: Hey guys, welcome back to the coming anchored podcast.
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We're really excited that you're here with us today.
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Before we jump into our content, a couple of things.
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So I'm Lauren Jackson, one of the hosts here, and this is Laura Dineen,
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one of our other wonderful hosts.
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We have a really special and exciting guest today.
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So we'll introduce her in just a minute.
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Just a quick disclaimer.
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So this podcast is for informational purposes only.
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So it's not meant to be your therapy.
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If you find that as you're listening to our content today that you might
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benefit from therapy, reach out to someone local who's licensed.
0:33
If you're local to us, please feel free to reach out to us here at Anchored.
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We're located in Brentwood, Tennessee.
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We work with all kinds of populations.
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We, primarily treat eating disorders at an outpatient level.
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We see grief, anxiety, trauma all through the lifespan.
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We love what we do.
0:49
We've really enjoyed doing this podcast and connecting with,
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with you guys in a different way.
0:54
So welcome.
0:56
Laura: Thanks Lauren.
0:56
Yeah.
0:57
If you're new to the becoming anchored podcasts, we really are about
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two different things on the show.
1:01
First and foremost, Lauren and I talk a lot about our real life experiences.
1:05
So we go through pain and suffering.
1:07
We also go through share joy and we are here to share about those on the show.
1:11
And then we also have the amazing gift of sitting with clients.
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We absolutely love, love, love what we do on a daily basis.
1:17
So we get to share some of our nuggets of wisdom, hopefully with, you know, You all
1:37
and yeah, without further ado, I would love to introduce
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you all to Jenna Overbaugh.
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She is an anxiety and OCD expert.
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I have followed her content for a while and randomly like cold called in air
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quotation, like cold emailed her last or maybe a couple of weeks ago and was like,
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Hey Jenna, do you want to be on the show?
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And she readily agreed.
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So thank you so much for your time today.
1:57
Jenna: Yeah, I'm super excited.
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I love everything that you guys do and super excited to
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be part of the chat today.
2:04
Laura: Yeah.
2:04
So we were talking before we started recording today.
2:07
I know that Jenna could share about many different things and many
2:10
different topics, but we really wanted to talk more about the concepts of
2:15
mental review and mental rehearsing.
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So when I've introduced those concepts to clients, they maybe
2:21
have never heard of it before.
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And they also are like, just really eager to learn specific strategies
2:28
for really resisting those urges to mentally review or mentally rehearse.
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And so Jenna, I would love to hear from you.
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What does that look like in clients or in individuals as a whole?
2:40
Jenna: So I think this is not just an OCD or anxiety specific construct, right?
2:45
I think as humans in general, we all do this from time to time.
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We all tend to, you know, Get lost in our heads you know,
2:53
re replay old conversations.
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If we feel like we might've offended somebody or acted awkward or said
2:58
something silly on, and, or we tend to prepare overly in a way that's
3:03
not necessarily proportionate to the outcome of that conversation, you
3:06
know, things like interviews, right?
3:08
We're trying to kind of prepare for those things.
3:10
If you're going on a first date, you're trying to prepare for those things.
3:13
Your wedding vows, right?
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Like these are all things that.
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When it's done in a way that's functional and proportionate to the
3:20
outcome of that event, it works fine.
3:23
So these behaviors in and of themselves are not necessarily the problem, and
3:26
they're not necessarily just an OCD thing.
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It's a human trait.
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It's a human quality and behavior that we all do.
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But obviously when it comes to obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety, it feels
3:37
like we're no longer in control of that.
3:39
We're no longer doing it because we want to or because we feel
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like it's beneficial for us.
3:44
We're doing it because we feel like we have to.
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And if we don't something bad is going to happen and it just happens way too
3:49
frequently and it's out of our, it feels like it's out of our control.
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And it can feel so tricky because these are obviously non
3:55
observable behaviors, right?
3:56
So this is not like hand washing or checking or asking for reassurance And so
4:01
we feel Like oh my gosh, I do this thing.
4:04
I've always done this thing I've done this thing since I was a kid and then
4:07
as soon as you have a label to it Maybe you see the label on the internet or on
4:10
tiktok or a therapist says it to you You have this label of like mental rehearsing
4:15
or mental review and it's like, Oh my gosh, everything clicks into place.
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And that's like such a validating experience to somebody to have
4:22
this really strange experience where you feel like it's just you.
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And then suddenly you have this term for it.
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There's just something very comforting and validating about that.
4:29
So yes, it could be called mentally reviewing, meaning like kind of
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going old, going past overpassing.
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thinking about past situations, conversations, how things happened.
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Basically just trying to reiterate or review or relive something
4:45
that happened in the past.
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It could be a conversation.
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It could be a driving route.
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It could be really anything just limited only by your imagination.
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But you're going backwards into the past kind of trying to reconstruct
4:55
something or some things that have happened or that didn't happen.
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And then the same thing could happen just in the future, right?
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It's kind of this.
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dysfunctional no longer helpful, almost preparation, but turned haywire.
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Sometimes it can be more of like a, almost like a daydreaming or
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like a fantasy type of thing.
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But in either case, right?
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Like it's avoidance of the here and now.
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It's avoidance of maybe potentially uncertainty.
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Avoidance of letting go in some situations, avoidance
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of some type of discomfort.
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And those are just our ways of trying to cope with those things in the
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moment, trying to go back into the past, trying to go back and, you know,
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trying to go forward into the future.
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And so it can look a lot of different ways to a lot of different people, but.
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It's a really big struggle and people struggle with it so much
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because it's unobservable because it feels like it's happening.
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So automatically and there's a lot of different kind of sequences
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like awareness, attention, engagement that we can break down.
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Essentially, it feels like it's really out of someone's control and it might be
5:55
to some degree initially, but they can definitely practice They can definitely
5:59
become more disciplined in catching it and redirecting it but unless you get into
6:03
the nitty gritty of those skills, it feels like your brain is just Taking control
6:08
and like you are a prisoner to your own brain, which is obviously a really
6:13
Laura: yeah, absolutely.
6:14
So you highlighted this a little bit, but if we really start with the why
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around like why people do this, right?
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So I think this like self compa it invites in like a shared humanity, a self
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compassion lens of like, Hey, you're not the only one that He either has done this
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historically or is doing this right now.
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I think there is so much like validation, like you're talking about in that.
6:40
So you mentioned a couple of different things just to recap, right?
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So it's avoidance.
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You said of the present moment, it's a way to cope maybe with some type of perceived
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threat or some type of uncertainty.
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What are other reasons that people like do these two behaviors?
6:56
Yeah.
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Jenna: compulsions in general, which mentally reviewing and mentally preparing
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are two examples, but rumination really is just any mentally engaging with a thought
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that can mean a lot of different things.
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It can be even simply just paying attention to a thought for someone.
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Just simply paying attention to a thought can in and of itself be compulsive and
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perpetuate the anxiety cycle so under the umbrella of rumination, I think of it
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as just like any mental engagement with a thought like holding it around and so
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I think when it comes to understanding why we do these compulsions in the
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first place because there's always a function There's always a reason why
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we're doing them and I think first to backtrack you have to understand because
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so many people out there are probably listening and they're like You You
7:41
know, but this isn't within my control.
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Like these things are just happening to me.
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I think the very foundation first that people need to understand is that there's
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a difference between a thought and there's a difference between thinking, right?
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So there's a thought and then there's thinking and a thought is something that
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just happens to you It's like if I ask you what your favorite ice cream is You might
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just have like a vision that comes to mind or a certain flavor that comes to mind.
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Mine just pops into my mind.
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It's cookie dough.
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It's chocolate chip cookie dough.
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I didn't like have to dig for that information.
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I didn't have to like really consider it too much or dig into
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the mental files in my brain.
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It just came to me, right?
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As opposed to thinking is where we almost kind of like latch onto this thought and
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we put it under this microscope for one reason or another and we analyze it from
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different scenarios and we're looking at it from all these different viewpoints
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and vantage points for some reason and there's a lot of reasons why So when I
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think of mental compulsions, I think of us like holding on to something or holding
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on to something for some reason, Dr.
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Mako Greenberg who is an expert when it comes to mental compulsions.
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I love his stuff.
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He referenced it as being like holding onto a basketball.
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Like, when you are doing any of these behaviors, when you are
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doing a mental compulsion, when you are mentally reviewing, when
8:56
you are mentally preparing, you are holding on to something.
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Whether that is the need for control, the avoidance of uncomfortable
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emotions, the, the allure and the pursuit of certainty, the allure
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and the pursuit of closure, right?
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There's something that you're holding on to.
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And in order to, you know, let go of that, you're going to have to stop.
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You're going to have to let go of whatever it is that you're holding
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on to, whether that is difficulty handling acceptance, right?
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The refusal of acceptance or, you know, I don't want to experience
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this uncomfortable emotion.
9:28
I don't want to feel sadness.
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I don't want to feel ashamed.
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I don't want to feel uncomfortable, whatever it is.
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So I think the reasons why and the justifications for why we continue doing
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these compulsions can range from anything.
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Like I just feel like I need to know if I continue to go back into
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my memory and try to piece together the puzzle, then I'll figure it out.
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I think a lot of times people especially with this like mental planning or this
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mental rehearsing type of behavior for the future They think that it's beneficial
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for them Like if they don't rehearse it then they're gonna mess up or if they
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don't rehearse it something bad will happen They think it keeps them safe.
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Somehow.
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They think it key it protects them somehow And maybe potentially in small doses in
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the beginning it did, but it has clearly become so much of an opposite issue.
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Like it has become so clearly not helpful and in some ways can be even detrimental.
10:18
Right.
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Like overly preparing for a date.
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You, you know, you prepare so much for the date and you're so anxious about the
10:24
date that suddenly you go on the first date and you're not yourself at all.
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And they're not so.
10:28
seeing the best, most authentic version of you.
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And you're just like recreating all of these kind of inauthentic
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statements and questions that you've rehearsed or not you.
10:36
Right.
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So it can really easily backfire, but to really simply answer your question,
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I think justifications that are really common for people are like, it keeps
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me safe, it helps me problem solve.
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It prevents bad things from happening.
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I won't be comfortable unless I figure this out.
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I can't move on with my day unless I figure it out Like I need to go back into
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my mind and just I need I just need to know that I didn't offend that person I
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need to go back and remember what it was that I said to that person so that I can
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move on with my day I can't move on with my day unless I know And that's all of
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the things that we're trying to pursue as we're engaging in these behaviors.
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Lauren: You mentioned Dr.
11:15
Greenberg, and he talks a lot about core fear.
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And so I'm wondering too, if that, if that is, you know, a big reason why
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we can find ourselves doing, doing these compulsions and engaging in
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these future or historical ways of thinking is to protect us from maybe
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what, whatever that core fear is that
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don't want to come true, right?
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We don't want it to happen.
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Jenna: right.
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I, if anyone's familiar with my work, I am not a big fan of the subtypes at all.
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We kind of talked about that a little bit before.
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But I, I, I mean, as much as I love it because it brings people
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into the community, right?
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Back to what I was saying, as far as, you know, the validation and
11:52
they really connect with this concept or connect with this term, like
11:55
religious OCD or just write OCD, right?
11:58
They kind of see that online or on the internet and they're
12:01
like, Oh my gosh, that's me.
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I never knew that OCD could be that way.
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So I love, I love the subtypes for that reason.
12:07
But beyond that, I really wish it would be more directed towards the
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core fear as far as our approach to treatment and our approach to recovery.
12:14
Because I visualize recovery as and and like treatment in general and our
12:19
practices in recovery It's kind of like an onion And on the outside, we have this
12:24
like very superficial subtype, right?
12:26
Very superficially, it could be contamination OCD, but that's
12:30
not actually what it is that we're trying to treat, right?
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I think people think that like, they think that they're, they think that
12:37
their house is dirty and that's the problem, or they think that germs
12:40
are bad and that's the problem.
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And if they could just fix their relationship with germs, then they'd
12:44
be okay, or the germs could just go away, then it would be fine.
12:47
But as we continue to like pull the layers off of that onion,
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we get a little bit deeper.
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And we realized like, Hey, it's not actually just about contamination.
12:55
It's actually about responsibility because you're so, you're not just
12:59
afraid of being irresponsible with germs.
13:02
You're also fearful of being irresponsible when it comes to driving.
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You're fearful of being irresponsible at your job.
13:09
Right.
13:10
And then suddenly we start to attack fear of responsibility or
13:13
fear of irresponsibility, right?
13:15
And like the consequences of that, and you can get deeper and deeper, like
13:18
what's so bad about being irresponsible?
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What means I'm a bad person?
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Or it means that I would be isolated from society because I'd be alone forever.
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And then you could ask more and more questions, go deeper and deeper and
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peel off those layers of the onion.
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Like, well, what's so bad about that?
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And what's so bad about being isolated from your family?
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You could get deeper and deeper.
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I think we all have core fears and I would take it even a step further to
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say that we all have the universal core fear of I'm afraid I can't handle that
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Laura: Mm
13:47
Jenna: like regardless of what avenue you're coming to I think of it all
13:50
like branches of a tree like at the very very tips of the tree the
13:54
leaves are like the subtypes you get a little bit deeper into the branch
13:58
of the tree And it's the core fears.
14:00
I think that the root of pretty much all of it is this
14:03
fear that we can't handle it.
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And I try to incorporate that into my approach to treatment too.
14:08
Like that's what it is that I want my clients and my students to target is
14:12
the fear that they can't handle it.
14:14
Cause I think if we can target that fear, like everything else gets better.
14:18
Right.
14:19
So.
14:20
I think the core fears are great.
14:21
I think we all have several of them, but if we were to truly get
14:24
down even further and deeper and dig even deeper into that onion, it
14:28
would probably all come back down to this fear that I can't handle that.
14:32
Laura: hmm.
14:33
Lauren: Yeah.
14:33
That's really interesting, because I know that, I mean, I've heard
14:36
from Several of my clients.
14:37
And when I even think about just myself, I hear, you know, some common
14:42
core fears being, I'm, I'm afraid of, you know, being alone for forever.
14:46
I'm afraid of not being good enough or, and, and it sounds like in your work,
14:53
what, what even feels deeper than that, like you said, kind of universally is
14:56
like, and if those things come true, if I am alone, then I can't handle that.
15:02
Is what is what.
15:04
Yeah.
15:04
Yeah.
15:04
That's really interesting.
15:05
And I, I can imagine even just as our listeners are listening that
15:09
probably there's a lot of head nods,
15:12
Jenna: Yeah.
15:13
Well, and think about like, to me, recovery is all about self efficacy.
15:17
So self efficacy, I know you guys might know what it is, but to the
15:20
listeners, it's just your belief in your ability to do difficult or new things.
15:24
And you are obviously like born with some tendency toward on a spectrum of self
15:30
efficacy, like very low self efficacy, meaning I don't believe in my ability
15:34
to get through hard things whatsoever.
15:35
Like I can't do that new challenging thing at all.
15:39
And versus the opposite end, which is like, yeah, bring it.
15:41
Like I'll get through it.
15:42
It's fine.
15:43
You're born to kind of some propensity to be somewhere on that
15:47
spectrum, but obviously environment plays such a big role too.
15:50
I think, I think OCD treatment, especially is all about getting
15:53
people to have as strong and resilient of a self efficacy as possible.
15:58
Think about it.
15:58
Like if they can really build that self efficacy, it doesn't matter If in a
16:02
month from then or two years from now, a stressful life situation happens,
16:06
maybe they have a separation or a job loss or a pandemic happens or OCD just
16:11
does its whack a mole stuff, right?
16:13
And then a trigger comes up.
16:14
It's not going to matter because if they have the core skills of being
16:17
able to rely on themselves and be resilient and rely on that self
16:21
efficacy that no matter what happens, I'm going to find a way through it.
16:25
I'm going to figure it out.
16:26
Then it, then everything else doesn't seem so awful.
16:30
Lauren: Hmm.
16:31
Laura: Yeah.
16:32
Gosh, I love this.
16:33
And I Yeah, I was actually just talking to my husband about this a few months
16:38
ago because this is actually in full transparency been part of my story
16:42
in terms of my quickness to forget.
16:46
the difficult things that I've been through.
16:48
And I think we see this quite often in our clients and my even acknowledgement
16:52
of my own resiliency throughout my story.
16:56
And so I think as humans, this is also part of the human
17:00
condition at times, right?
17:01
Is when we are going through pain or suffering, we maybe are more quick
17:05
to forget all of the hard things that we've already overcome or art, all
17:09
of the obstacles that we've already been through along with the belief
17:12
of like, okay, I got this and I can.
17:15
I can do this hard thing that's in front of me.
17:18
And I think a lot of our clients struggle with that too.
17:21
So starting to point that out in our clients, starting, I think just
17:24
reminding ourselves lovingly, like all of the things that we've been through
17:27
that have been hard, all of the times when maybe we've been afraid and have
17:32
moved through that helpfully, I think can be helpful reminders as well.
17:36
Jenna: For sure.
17:37
Like, like absolutely reminding them that yes, everything up until this point, like
17:41
you were here, you were listening to this.
17:43
Like you have gotten through everything that you have ever thought
17:46
that you would never get through.
17:47
Like you're here, you're breathing, you're listening to this.
17:50
You're here.
17:51
You've done it.
17:51
It might not have been pretty.
17:52
It might not have been comfortable.
17:54
It might've really, really sucked, but you're here.
17:56
Like you are alive.
17:57
And one thing.
17:59
That really was kind of like a light bulb moment for me when I was really
18:03
struggling with postpartum OCD.
18:05
Now, probably six, five and a half years ago, my son's seven.
18:07
Now I was always, I, I had this huge fear as many parents do
18:12
that he would die before me.
18:14
He's my only one, not that that makes a difference, but he was my only child.
18:19
And I just was obviously so in love with him.
18:21
Like, I love him so much.
18:22
And I just, I was like, Oh my gosh, like what if he dies before me?
18:25
Like
18:25
if we're shooting more accident, he gets sick.
18:28
Like there's so many things that can obviously happen.
18:31
And I would spend a relentless amount of time and effort, like researching.
18:35
And I, in our OCD delusion, sometimes like we think that we
18:39
can actually figure this stuff out.
18:40
Like if we actually Google it enough or think about it enough, like we
18:44
can figure out the un figureoutable.
18:46
And obviously there's nothing that I could ever figure out to like calculate,
18:50
like how my son would die and to make sure he wouldn't die before me.
18:53
But I don't know in the depths of my like Craze, I thought that yeah, I just
18:57
need to look it up a little bit more and then i'll figure it out and my core
19:00
fear with that as I teach my clients so much is like that Oh my gosh, if he
19:04
dies, I wouldn't be able to handle that Like I wouldn't be able to tolerate that
19:07
if he dies before me I wouldn't be able to handle that and like I would just be
19:12
in this like endless state of mourning and I Had visions of myself like just
19:17
sobbing uncontrollably unable to breathe like just hating my life forever You And
19:22
I just wouldn't be able to tolerate it.
19:24
Like I would end up hurting myself or like ending my own life because I was
19:28
just that sad and it dawned on me like God forbid that ever happened Like I ever
19:33
got the phone call that something happened or I ever saw it like My life would
19:38
go on like i'm not saying that I would like it I'm, not saying that it would be
19:42
wouldn't that it would be pleasant I'm, not saying that I would ever be able to
19:45
like fill that hole in my heart But I would I would have no choice but to hang
19:49
up the phone Like I would have no choice but to continue to take a couple breaths.
19:54
Like, I would have no choice to, at some point, go to the bathroom.
19:58
Like,
20:00
it's not like I would do it with a smile on my face, right?
20:02
But like, life does go on after a tragedy.
20:06
Like, life does.
20:08
It has to, right?
20:09
Like it has to.
20:11
And yeah, just this like realization that like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, God
20:15
forbid I ever do get that phone call.
20:17
I am going to have to put the phone down.
20:18
Like, it's not like my life is just going to be over and I'm like, my soul is
20:22
going to get sucked into this black hole and like, I'm going to be eviscerated.
20:26
Right?
20:26
Like I'm going to have to put the phone down.
20:29
I'm going to have to like, turn around and like, take a step forward.
20:32
Right?
20:33
Like we are, that is life.
20:35
And so.
20:36
You know, bad things happen, awful tragic things happen, and you've
20:40
gotten through everything and you will get through everything.
20:42
You will.
20:42
It's, it's not, it's, it's making amends with the fact that
20:45
it's not going to be pretty.
20:46
It's not going to be like this unicorn life that you probably all want.
20:50
But there's beauty in that too.
20:52
There's beauty along with the tragedy.
20:54
Laura: Yeah.
20:55
Yeah.
20:56
Well, and I think to the piece here, that's really important to highlight for
20:59
our listeners is had you kept Googling all the different scenarios or, you know,
21:05
thinking about all the possibilities of what could happen with your son
21:09
that robs you of like the present day experiences that you could have been
21:15
spending your time doing with them.
21:17
Right.
21:17
And so I think that's like where we want to look at the consequences of.
21:22
you know, circling back to what we started with right of the mental compulsions.
21:25
So we're talking more about the mental piece, right?
21:27
But of doing whatever we're doing that gets in the way
21:30
of us, like living our life.
21:32
And I think that can be a really hard but fruitful conversation for a lot
21:37
of our clients of like, just that recognition of like, Hey, what I'm
21:40
doing is not working for me anymore.
21:43
Jenna: I think a lot of people say that they're there, but they're not there.
21:46
Like, I think a lot of people, especially when it comes to
21:49
more mental compulsions, right?
21:50
Like it's maybe not as overtly consequential as hand washing because,
21:55
you know, hand washing obviously takes a lot of time and you know,
21:59
maybe like your hands get raw.
22:01
It's not as physical, obviously as maybe going and checking something.
22:05
It's not maybe as expensive as some other rituals might be like going
22:09
to the doctor numerous times, but.
22:11
There's a cost to everything, like, I always tell my students, I always
22:14
tell my clients, there's no such thing as free lunches when it comes to OCD.
22:18
Like, you don't get to just do a compulsion, including the
22:20
mental ones, without a cost.
22:22
Like, at the very least, the cost of you doing a compulsion, including going
22:26
back into your memory to try to figure this thing out, and including, like,
22:29
effortfully constructing all these fake imagined scenarios to try to protect
22:34
yourself, like, Those come with costs, and at the very least, the cost is that
22:40
you've just made it stronger and made it harder for you to resist it for next time.
22:43
Like, that is the minimum cost.
22:45
The maximum cost could be, like me, I was so stuck in my head for the
22:49
first two years of my son's life.
22:50
I look at pictures now, and I can't remember, like, a single thing.
22:53
I can't remember a single thing.
22:55
I see us, I will see us, like, where he's blowing out his candles on his birthday
23:00
and instead of, like, Being full of love.
23:02
I'm like, this is his last birthday.
23:04
Like this is going to be the, I know that this is the last
23:06
Christmas that we're going to have because for sure he's going to die.
23:09
And like, I, I like got into that, right?
23:11
Like I, I didn't just allow that thought to come and go and say, Oh yeah, I
23:14
see that thought back to Christmas.
23:17
It's like, Oh my gosh, like what if this is his last Christmas?
23:19
Like, Oh my gosh, like I have to make it the best Christmas possible.
23:22
I have to remember everything.
23:23
I have to take all the pictures because he's for sure going to die.
23:26
This is for sure his last Christmas.
23:27
Like so yeah, there's always a.
23:30
And it's really easy to just say like, Oh yeah, like it's going to help me.
23:33
Like, I feel like I need to figure this out.
23:34
I can't move on until I figure it out because it doesn't feel like
23:37
there's a cost associated with it.
23:38
There's no such thing as free lunch.
23:40
There's always a cost and the cost accrues, right?
23:42
Like the cost accrues essentially like you start missing like little
23:46
fleeting moments with your family.
23:48
Eventually two years is going to go by and you're like not going
23:51
to have any recollection of it.
23:52
And it's going to feel really, really hard to get out of that.
23:55
Lauren: Yeah.
23:56
Well, I think that's like you guys were saying, why that psychoeducation, I
23:59
guess with the clients is so important around, Hey, the, every time you do
24:03
this behavior, this compulsion there, you're re it's reinforcing that the need
24:08
for it, you are telling your, you're telling yourself, you're telling your
24:12
brain that you need it's the only thing that's going to help you feel okay.
24:16
And so that I love that self efficacy piece of like, of, of strengthening
24:20
that and, and almost reminding, reminding ourselves that we can do, you.
24:25
hard things.
24:26
So yeah, that like reinforcement piece just feels important to, to
24:29
help the clients understand like how that kind of cycle works.
24:36
Laura: Yeah.
24:36
Yeah.
24:37
Yeah.
24:37
And we've mentioned a couple different like strategies, obviously the psycho
24:41
education, the insight and awareness around what we're actually afraid
24:44
of, and even that like universal fear that we've talked about you know,
24:49
Jenna, what else do you recommend to clients and our listeners as far as
24:53
like practical takeaways for today's episodes of how they can really start?
24:57
Like, you know, my hope, even after listening to this episode would be that
25:00
they can start practicing some of the things that we're talking about today.
25:05
Jenna: So many come to mind, but the, I mean, the very salient one
25:08
in my mind is always, I feel very strongly that even if your obsessions
25:16
come in the form of an image, right?
25:18
A lot of times OCD comes in the form of a thought like, what if I do that?
25:21
Or, Oh my gosh, what if I get sick?
25:23
My husband has the stomach flu right now and I, not that anyone enjoys being
25:27
sick, but I particularly am fearful of being sick and My first thought was
25:31
like, oh my gosh, what if I get it?
25:32
What if I get it?
25:33
Even if you Don't have these like very obvious.
25:36
What if thoughts or these?
25:37
What if questions come up even if they come in the form of an urge or
25:41
a feeling or an impulse or an image?
25:44
Chances are there's a question embedded in there somewhere so even if you are
25:49
driving over the bridge and you have this image of you just like swerving
25:52
the car or this like Impulse this like unwanted ego dystonic impulse or urge
25:56
to kind of like swerve off the bridge You There's still a question there.
25:59
It's why did I have that thought?
26:01
And would I ever do something like that?
26:03
Or what if I did something like that?
26:04
Right.
26:05
It could be all of those.
26:05
It could be one of those.
26:07
Let's take another example.
26:09
Because of people are always like, Oh, well, what about like groinal
26:12
responses when it comes to pedophilic OCD or sexual orientation OCD?
26:15
I don't have what if thoughts, I don't have questions.
26:18
I just get this groinal response.
26:20
Well, you get the groinal response, which is a natural body experience,
26:24
but then you start to have an intrusive question about that.
26:27
You start to wonder like, what does that mean about me?
26:29
Why did I experience that?
26:31
Did I enjoy that?
26:32
So there's always questions.
26:35
Your job.
26:36
In recovery, if you want your life back, and if you want to start to take control
26:40
again, is to not answer those questions.
26:44
I think recovery boils and having a happy life, honestly, like it boils
26:48
down to not answering those questions.
26:51
Laura: Yeah.
26:51
Yeah.
26:53
Jenna: that come up after that.
26:53
Well, how do I know what's an OCD question versus what's a real question?
26:56
Don't answer that question either.
26:59
Is that OCD or is it not?
27:00
I'm not answering that question either.
27:01
Like the amount of times that I like remind myself every day or
27:07
say to myself in some form or fashion, I'm not answering that.
27:10
Like it's multiple, right?
27:12
It's even on a good day, it's probably 10 to 15 times.
27:16
Right?
27:16
I'm not, I'm not answering that.
27:18
That's not my problem.
27:19
I'm not answering that.
27:20
I'm not answering that.
27:20
I'm not answering that.
27:21
So my best advice would be to really like listen for the question, like
27:27
keep your ears open for the question that OCD or anxiety is asking of you.
27:32
And it is your job to not answer those questions because
27:34
that's where the compulsion is.
27:37
That's where the mental ritual is.
27:39
That's where the mental review comes in.
27:40
That's where the mental rehearsing comes in.
27:42
You know, Oh my gosh, first date.
27:44
What if I say something stupid?
27:45
What if they don't like me?
27:46
That's the question.
27:47
Your job is to not answer that question.
27:49
Oh my gosh.
27:50
Did I, did I hit someone with my car?
27:52
That's the question.
27:53
Your job is to not answer that question.
27:56
And And by like going back into the past, like we've been talking about
28:00
by going into the future, like we've been talking about, that's your effort.
28:03
That's your analytical effort.
28:05
And it takes effort.
28:07
It's that's your analytical effort to answer those questions.
28:10
Your only job is to not answer the question.
28:13
Laura: Yeah.
28:14
And that would be, you know, like we're, you know, talking about therapeutically
28:18
that exposure work of like, I'm going to resist the urge to problem
28:21
solve or to not answer the question.
28:23
And what I tell my clients is like, yeah, if we're on the side of the
28:25
road and you know, we need to call AAA because we have a flat tire, that's
28:29
really different than the problem solving that you're talking about that
28:33
is unhelpful to us in our recovery.
28:36
Yeah.
28:37
Jenna: solving is different from what it is that we're talking about here, right?
28:40
Problem solving involves action.
28:42
Problem solving involves solutions.
28:45
Problem solving involves trial and error, right?
28:48
Like.
28:49
Problem solving is not stagnant.
28:51
Problem solving involves maybe a little bit of thinking as far as
28:55
like, okay, what are my options?
28:57
You know, plan a plan B kind of all those things.
29:00
And then evaluating those things and then taking action, right?
29:05
Mental compulsions and rumination, it's just a revolving door of thought.
29:08
Like, you're not solving anything by thinking about it.
29:11
In fact, I would argue that it's avoidance of problem solving.
29:13
It's, it's thinking.
29:15
I believe there's even research to show that like, ruminating and
29:18
thinking about the problem It activates certain elements in certain parts of
29:22
your brain that make you think that you're solving the problem, but you're
29:25
not actually solving the problem.
29:27
So it like kind of satisfies.
29:28
It's like a nice little appetizer.
29:29
Like it makes you think that you're solving the problem, but it's not.
29:33
It's like Splenda, right?
29:34
Like it, it, your body thinks that it's sugar, but it's not right.
29:39
Like it's not.
29:40
So you actually have to solve the problem.
29:42
You actually have to take action.
29:44
Laura: Yeah.
29:45
Yeah.
29:46
That's great feedback.
29:47
So really just challenging our listeners to not answer the,
29:50
to listen for the question.
29:51
That was the first piece of feedback you gave and then to, to not answer it.
29:54
Yeah.
29:55
I love
29:55
Jenna: Anticipate it feeling uncomfortable.
29:57
Like I always try to put myself in the position of people who are listening and
30:00
they're like, Oh my gosh, but I can't like, that would be so uncomfortable.
30:02
Yeah.
30:03
Like that's the point.
30:04
You're going to have a secondary wave of questions.
30:08
Like, well, what if something happens if you don't answer this question?
30:11
Like, well, what if that's an actual legitimate thought and it's not upset?
30:13
Like.
30:14
You have to be relentless be relentless in not answering these questions for a
30:19
day Like literally just go go wild like just go wild for a day and just like see
30:26
what happens I guarantee I could guarantee You'll wake up and be like, oh my gosh,
30:31
I can't believe that i'm still here.
30:32
Like i'm still alive and nothing bad happened It's crazy
30:36
Lauren: Mm hmm.
30:37
It's
30:38
Laura: Yeah.
30:39
I love it.
30:39
It's like, yeah, it's going to be uncomfortable.
30:41
It's going to be hard.
30:42
We're not here to say that those things aren't true.
30:44
Right.
30:45
It's going to be uncomfortable.
30:46
And I think this is also tapping into that concept of willingness, right?
30:49
Like, what are we willing to do
30:51
to get
30:52
Jenna: one way or the other like And being uncomfortable when you resist
30:58
doing something that you've typically done, that's not an OCD centric concept.
31:03
Like I always share this little backstory.
31:06
Like I used to be a pack a day smoker, like 15 years ago, I used
31:09
to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day.
31:11
I used to be a naughty, naughty girl.
31:13
And all of a sudden I got sick one day.
31:15
I decided that I might as well just stop.
31:17
Like I'm never going to go another day without smoking again.
31:20
So I might as well just quit.
31:21
That was all, that was also very hard, right?
31:24
Like I had cravings.
31:26
I w I had to be in places that I normally would smoke like my
31:30
car and with other friends, like at parties, like out and about.
31:35
Right.
31:35
And like, I had those urges.
31:36
It wasn't like, I just decided to stop smoking and like, Oh yeah, I
31:40
never experienced a craving again.
31:41
Like we sometimes get so into the OCD recovery and it be, as soon as it becomes
31:46
uncomfortable, we're like, Oh, that's a red, that's a red flag, uncomfortable.
31:50
That means I'm doing something wrong.
31:51
That means this is an OCD.
31:52
And it's like, what other habit change do any of you do?
31:56
That's not a little bit uncomfortable at first.
31:58
Lauren: hmm.
31:59
Laura: Absolutely.
32:00
Jenna: Like, like any beha any behavior change, any habit change that you enact,
32:06
you're gonna lose your patience for it.
32:08
You're gonna wonder if it's worth it.
32:10
You're gonna question it.
32:11
It's not gonna feel enjoyable at first.
32:13
Like I, that's one thing that is like equally frustrating for me and, but, but
32:18
also like evokes a lot of passion for me.
32:19
It's like, this is behavior change.
32:22
Like this is, this is habit change.
32:25
And we get so frustrated when it doesn't work immediately, but like no
32:29
behavior change ever happens that way.
32:31
You have to do the hard work.
32:33
You have to get in those repetitions.
32:35
You have to keep showing up and follow the plan, not follow your emotions.
32:39
That's another probably really practical strategy that I would
32:41
recommend is like follow the plan.
32:43
Don't follow your emotions.
32:44
Don't follow your feelings, follow the plan.
32:46
And eventually everything else will catch up.
32:49
Laura: Yeah.
32:50
Yeah.
32:51
So I feel like you've already assigned the homework, right?
32:54
Listen for the question.
32:55
Don't answer the question.
32:57
Follow the plan, the recovery plan.
32:59
Yeah.
32:59
Gosh.
33:00
Thank you so much for your time today in this conversation, Jenna.
33:03
It's just been lovely to chat with you and get to know you a
33:05
little bit more on today's show.
33:07
Jenna: you.
33:09
Laura: Yeah.
33:10
So, okay.
33:10
You've kind of already answered the homework question, right?
33:14
So if you would like to leave Our listeners with more homework or an
33:19
affirmation, feel free to do that.
33:21
Jenna: A really simple affirmation for me is, and it's just so
33:25
simple, is I can breathe here.
33:29
And that just really reminds me that, like, it's gonna be
33:32
hard one way or the other.
33:33
Like, to go and do those compulsions would feel easy at first, and it might make me
33:38
temporarily feel better, but the long term consequences of that, and feeling like my
33:42
life is getting smaller and smaller, Like I can't breathe in that, in that life.
33:47
Like I, there's no way for me to live.
33:49
Like I, I lose, I lose my identity.
33:52
I lose valuable, valuable parts of myself.
33:54
And I feel like I can't breathe when I'm doing compulsions.
33:57
Right.
33:58
And so in the times where it feels hard to not give into compulsions, I at least
34:03
remind myself, like I can breathe here.
34:05
It's, it might be hard, but I can at least breathe here.
34:09
And so that is something that really pulls me through on the tough days.
34:12
Like it's hard, but it's also going to be hard the other way.
34:16
And I can at least breathe here.
34:18
Like that really pulls me through.
34:21
Laura: Yeah.
34:22
I love that so much.
34:24
Well, how can our listeners find you and anything that you want to tell
34:27
us more about or any offerings you
34:28
Jenna: Yeah, so I mo mostly am on Instagram at Jenna dot Augh, and then
34:33
my website is jenna augh lpc.com.
34:36
I have a podcast.
34:37
It's called All the Hard Things.
34:38
I have some merch.
34:39
Speaking of affirmations, I just came out recently with like, I had
34:42
a cool little affirmation deck.
34:43
I'll show you guys here.
34:45
Lauren: Oh, cool.
34:46
Jenna: Yeah, like these awesome little cards.
34:48
There's 35 of them with all like custom little illustrations to go along with it.
34:52
This one says being uncomfortable in the short term is worth having freedom
34:56
in the long run, which is like very similar to what we just kind of talked
34:58
about comes with a nice little stand.
35:00
So I have it like right by my desk.
35:02
They can fit in your pocket for if you like the affirmations and those
35:05
nice little quick grounding reminders.
35:07
That's all good.
35:08
But.
35:09
Lots of resources, free videos, PDFs on my website, lots of good stuff for you guys.
35:13
And I'll make sure that I get you some links too, if that's helpful.
35:16
Lauren: Cool.
35:18
Laura: That sounds amazing.
35:19
Well, thank you again, Jenna.
35:20
And thank you all for listening to the becoming anchored podcast.
35:23
We'll see you next time.
35:24
Jenna: Thank you.
35:26
Laura: Bye.