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Transcript

Digital Dawn - Curation Fact or Fiction · IAB Europe podcasts

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Ivy's podcast DigitalTork, the podcast that brings insights and learnings from the digital advertising and marketing industry to light, but new ideas of the system and help our industry survive.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: In each episode, we invite a different guest from across the industry to share their inspiring insights and explore innovative ideas.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: From DENI and AI to related technical advances across a variety of channels, we cover it all with talk leaders from across Europe.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're tuning in for a deep dive into emerging trends or to hear first hand experiences from the people shaping our industry, you're in the right place.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both for joining us today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having us.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So just to get started, what has been your peak of the week?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: So a highlight either personally or professionally.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Julie, we can uh start with you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was thinking about that because it's only Tuesday today.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um so my week hasn't been that long yet, but um it feels like this year has been really long and really, really busy, and I've done a lot of travel.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I would say my peak was uh my kids going back to school after three weeks off um yesterday, which um allowed me to have a quiet working from home day.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I took my dog for a long walk to just reflect a little bit on all the things going on um work-wise personally, and so uh a bit of quiet, a bit of reflection, and uh you know, getting ready for this uh very busy week starting with this podcast.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, nothing better than getting to focus again.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: And Nick.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, peak of the week, weirdly for me, is the fact that I'm probably gonna get to work from home for most of this week, if I'm honest.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've been on the road for the last three weeks now, in different places, doing different offsites with lots of different markets.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm quite a simple person at heart.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just like the peak for me with this week is just the fact that I can have some peace and tranquility to actually get some stuff done versus running around.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds quite sad, but I'm quite happy about it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I think it's actually more than more than valid, and I can relate wholeheartedly.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so before we dive into the main topic for today's podcast, I'd like to know a bit more about your roles.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how did you get to where you are now and what are the key lessons you've learned uh along the way?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Julie, do you want to go first?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, wow, key lessons.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so my role, um, I am head of ME at Magnite, so I look after our commercial uh teams across Europe.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: We have um six offices across uh the European continent and then uh you know various people in different places.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: So um the interesting thing about my role is sort of you know the complexity of each market.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Each market is very different.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think um, you know, I was last week one of the offsides that Nick mentioned was actually I was there as well.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and we had sort of the dense of European teams and the magnet European teams together, and it's just really interesting to see the the things that are the same and the things that are different.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: So uh different market maturities, product adoption, things like that.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh how did I get here is uh I am uh you know working in adtec now for 20 years.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm Dutch, but I moved to London to study and then sort of got stuck here, I would say, in a good way.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and have always worked sort of in European-wide roles.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like I've kind of grown up a little bit together with the digital industry as well.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: So when I started, it was really basic web display.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was selling some contextual ad units that seemed very novel and cool at the time.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, the year of mobile, and then now CTV, and then I think you know, agentic and AI is kind of what's coming next.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like every step has been uh very interesting, challenging, always changing.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess maybe lessons I've learned is always keep an open mind, um, try to see what's next so you can kind of stay ahead of the game a little bit and uh listen, uh, so you can sort of feel and hear what's going on.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, be ready for things to change quickly, and change is good.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: So accept it and and go with it.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of my what I've learned in my career, at least, is uh, you know, change is always around the corner, but it's a good thing.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Don't resist it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Nick.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I started off the world as a as a journalist actually.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: When I was at university, I did a journalism course.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I worked as a sports journalist for about three, almost four years.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I always thought that's what I was destined to do.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of thought that that was that was it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've hit my goal.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love sport, get to report and talk about it.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I quickly fell out of it, fell out of love with it, probably just because I was a bit young and a bit stupid, if I'm honest.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had a good friend working at PhD at the time who told me about their grad scheme.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I jumped in on it.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh having been still quite young, it was just madness that you were sort of getting paid to do that role.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: It just felt like it was just like university, but professionalized at that point.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was there.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I then uh I moved to Visium.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing a lot of um planning strategy work for Coca-Cola and cores.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Then I decided to upstick, so I left the UK when I was 26.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I moved to Australia.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I worked for um a telecoms company called Telstra out there doing commercial development.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thought I'd only stay for like one or two years, like you know, enjoy the high life, the bubble of Sydney, or the or the beach life.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: That sort of turned into five years before I knew it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I uh I got back into the UK and I actually joined Dentsey back in 2015 now.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh originally in the out-of-home organization called Postscope.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Worked there for about four years before I transgressed into Amplify, which is the curb commercial arm of um of Dent C.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So a bit like Julie in a way, like I'm sort of I've become quite understandable about change.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of my roles have always been product focused or innovation focused.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And my only lessons that I would, you know, if anyone wanted to listen to them, would be that innovation is hard.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like innovation is a really sexy topic to talk about, and I think a lot of people lust for innovation for the sake of innovation.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, driving innovation is is hard, it's hard work, especially in corporate organizations where you have to um sort of migrate across multiple different departments who all have a different point of view, KPI, acceptance, tolerance.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So moving things forward is actually is a is a challenge.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think um like one of my probably my successes if I look back on is almost acting a bit like a chameleon and sort of changing your colours depending on who you're talking to, you know, to kind of move things forward, understand people's point of view, and use that as a way of thinking about how do you move something forward.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So like all of us, learning as we go, Demetrius.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Great advice, and uh a common theme in both uh what you and Julie said is uh keeping up with change, keeping up with innovation.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, our topic today uh is uh quite relevant to that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna be talking about uh curation, which um uh apart from uh AI and a couple of other topics is one of the hot topics of the ecosystem.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's uh fair to say at the moment.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, a question on everyone's mind really when you talk about curation.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: What is curation?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: How can we define curation?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Julie, do you want to have uh a go at that first?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sure.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think Nick will be more eloquent, especially with his uh background as a journalist, which I didn't know, which is really cool actually.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, I think curation is you know the latest buzzword.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's open to interpretation as well.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um but how I look at a curation is really almost the sort of best of both worlds of the open market, um, sort of programmatic way of buying, and then PMPs, which is sort of a one-to-one buy or uh, you know, direct I.O.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: buy, um, where essentially, you know, the buyer has the opportunity to curate um inventory that they're interested in, interested in, um, but the curation itself is done on the supply side.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: So really the publishers and the insights and the sort of signals coming directly from the supply.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it has a sort of better, closer to the supply um uh data, and uh therefore, you know, the you can kind of pre-select the best environment or the most relevant audience before the bid is even made.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in Magnite, we also have this tool sitting, you know, where you sort of do the discovery, then the curation, but you can also activate.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, in essence, you can do the whole sort of chain of steps uh in one go.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, you mentioned AI, and if we're working, you know, AI workflows in there as well to simplify it even more, to make it more efficient.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, essentially digit decision making that's closer to the source, um, less intermediaries, you know, great transparency, great way to sort of do this SPO supply path optimization.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's another sort of buzzword that's been going on for many years, um, and giving the best access to that supply from a buyer perspective.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's how I kind of look at it on a high level.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And Nick, what would you add to that?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what kind of uh decisioning uh are we talking about?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to know what to meet, I'll just go back a step, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because you asked me this when we when we first spoke, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Which is kind of let's let's try and picturize what curation is.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I was sort of thinking about this, and analogies are really good, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes uh to do it.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I was kind of thinking about this and and thinking, uh like Demetrius, have you ever been to a Pickamix store?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right, so like curation is really like thinking about Pickamix to a certain extent, right?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which is when you think of all the abundance that you want to go when you get to that pickup store we were for the the movie theater show or wherever it is you're gonna don't go and do.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Curation really is effectively like picking and choosing what it is that you want, right?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you don't want all the source, or you want all the cola bottles, or you want wherever it is that's your fix, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you can choose how much and what you want of it to get the best desire for what you want, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously at least analogy works, which is like with brands, thinking about you know, if we're thinking and getting on to obviously CTV and stuff like that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh curation is just the art of being able to choose and select what you think you need to deliver what your brand is requiring in that place, right?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that you can kind of break it down is if I'm in the world of you know P and P, well that's me just choosing at wholesale one piece of Pic Mix, and I can I can get that in a different flavor or variant if I want, but it's only one.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas curation really is about the art of having a broad selection that you're after and picking and choosing the right things so you get what you need.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Does that analogy make any sense?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: That does make some sense.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I wanted to like maybe narrow down a couple of things specifically on the difference between you know traditional PMPs and curated marketplaces.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: What exactly um is the difference and what exactly should buyers care about um when it comes to that uh difference?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: So uh are PMVs just like a broader uh kind of uh curation based on inventory source, and then a curated marketplace uh operates a bit differently.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Could you flesh that out a little bit?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, let's be really clear, right?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So PMPs, by the very nature, they're private.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they are PMP is you know a typically a one-to-one publisher deal, which is designed to secure premium inventory.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's historical focus on what might be.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's perhaps not as quality driven sometimes rather than other pure optimizations.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that could be a really good example to bring in life with that's just one broadcaster, right?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or one major streaming partner.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a private deal between the client or the brand that we are working with, and that said partner in that situation.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Versus a curated marketplace is they would be, you know, data enriched with first or third party data.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: They'll have multiple publisher inventory packages.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they could incorporate multiple different data inputs, they will have some direct supply paths onto it, they'll use SSP signals, they'll use real-term optimization.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, the big differences are is I'm either gonna do it in a closed environment, think of that as P and P for what you will, or think about a curated marketplace, which is I'm gonna have far more uh understanding of what I'm gonna do.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there would there are some drawbacks potentially that could come to that as well.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so if we were to summarize that, it would basically be defined on the base of whether it's sort of closed or an open environment, um, and then um some value added coming from what you layer on top of uh just the the basic inventory, like uh rich data, uh etc.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh does that sound good as a basic definition for curation?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's that's that's how it can work.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's always different, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Depending on what it is the brand's trying to achieve.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Julie, you mentioned uh fewer intermediaries.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: How exactly do curated marketplaces simplify the supply chain?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And what does that mean?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think maybe simplify, well, maybe it is the right word, but it's definitely I guess efficient, more efficient.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: So simpler in the sense of uh less uh players in the supply chain, uh less also touch points for whoever is doing the buying.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you know, like I said, it's you know a way to sort of optimize um that supply path.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it can collapse all these different paths into like one route.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think one of the real benefits or um the way to simplify it is also it sort of cuts out a lot of waste.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we saw, you know, in the past a lot of fraud and things like that.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, this is makes you much clearer on what you're buying.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: So transparency is super key as well.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then like Nick said, you know, you can add data, so you can kind of um create your own, you know, environment depending on what you want, what are the outcomes that you're looking for?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: So you can add, you know, first party data, third-party data, things like that, uh, which may give it that extra sort of special sauce and creates that, yeah, your own sort of unique, I guess, way or or or marketplace versus maybe the open market, which is you know sort of accessible for everyone and you'll have much less signals, much less data to buy on.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I don't know if that answers the question.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: So if we think about you know constructing a supply chain kind of like a puzzle, um, this is about making sure there are no redundant puzzle pieces, which is what the claim of efficiency is based on.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then also providing, you know, uh something extensible where people can come in and plug um their own uh data, for example, uh and uh provide that framework uh as a service, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of the idea.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think what we haven't really mentioned yet is scale, which is super important because like Nick said, you know, a PMP is you know traditionally like a one-to-one.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um if you start applying tons of different data uh signals or you're looking for a specific outcome on in a one-to-one, it's much harder unless it's like a very, very big publisher, for example.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you have that scale of you know, it's multi-publisher, um, but you cut out all the waste and sort of fraud or whatever it is that you don't want to buy, you know very sp very well what you're going after, but it's in that sort of safe, close environment, if that makes sense.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's managed where you want it to be managed, extensible when you want it to be extensible, and also scalable.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it offers that flexibility, uh, which sounds like a like a decent deal uh for a buyer.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh going back to Nick, what do what would you say your goal is with curation?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: And do you have any evidence that you're achieving it?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, look, I mean, our goal is really clear, which which is in a world of immense complication, uh, our goal is to simplify supply chains.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um we want to move the decision in closer to the impression.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we want to reduce the the number of intermediaries, we want to reduce the fees, we want to reduce wastage.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we want to sort of shift from just pure optimization to be able to really move it towards buying towards outcome execution.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So really really nailing in or zeroing in on what is the the the the client's KPI that they're trying to deliver and ensure every single time they come back to us, we are focusing back in on that to ensure that's the metric that gets shifts so they get the right return on investment, or they get the right return on ad spends.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are, you know, we're actively in a world where we're trying to shift away from open exchange deals and into curated andor private marketplaces as well.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um the way that you know, the way that we're sort of thinking about that at the moment is about using what we would consider as best in class relationships with SSPs, um, but then also a lot of using a lot more of the AI bidding platforms as well, because that's allowing us to get the intelligence that we require to really deliver on business goals that we want.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's some different techniques that we can think about doing that as well.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're um we're a lot further down the road in using publisher side signals as well, and for understanding a lot more about what's happening in the SSP, a lot more than we've ever thought about and considered.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I mean our goals are are quite clear, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a client, you want the best value return of what you've got.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're in a world now where marketplaces are more mature, we understand a lot more, and it's less of a buzzword and more of a sort of operating standard.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And within that, there are still some little demons, um, and we're just trying to ex-field all of them as much as possible.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned some goals and some trends and some problems in the uh digital advertising markets today.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Could you expand that just a bit more?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you think curation is relevant and how does that tie into what's going on in the ecosystem?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it relevant?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, look, I think you've got a classically, you've got to look back, right, Demetrius, which is, you know, the world that was 20 years ago, if we were to think about let's let's just let's just talk about broadcast or A V, audio visual, right?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: To be really clear.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be quite an easy world, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it what it probably didn't feel like that 20 years ago.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly when I started, it was really confusing, I thought.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you used to have, you know, depending on what geography you're in, a staple of uh four or five major broadcast houses, maybe a um uh either a Sky or a setup box kind of uh OTT kind of publisher that you're dealing with.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And now you you roll forward, and the sheer abundance of options and content is just like unfathomable.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, someone would could draw a great sick map and uh it would look hideous in what it is.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the problems, Demetrius, are about ensuring that we're actually dealing the right value because you know we see hundreds, if not thousands, of different publishers popping up every single time into our inbox, telling us that they're the best platform, we've got the best content with the best attention metrics and the best sell-side information as well.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And our job is to mitigate, understand, do all the diligence on those aspects quite quickly in order to get to something that just works to drive a client's business forward.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So there is just a lot more complication in the game now.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like how do I blend my broadcast spend with my CTV spend and ensure that I'm still covering off YouTube and social video into all of the mix as well.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And do I need any OLV that boosts some reach as well?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so much to think about and consider.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why curation's really important and perhaps curation hasn't maybe had the best reputation because some people feel like they're not getting the value out of it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I would question which is curation is actually delivering all the value in being able to take a really complex opportunity and simplify it in a way which delivers a result for a client.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not in terms just in terms of immediate investment, but in terms of business return as well.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I would argue that without curation, us being able to understand and interpret the different data signals which are related to a brand or a category, the way that we would do planning right now would be an absolutely anarchic state because there's just so much volatility and deception as well sometimes in the edge stream.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: That we absolutely need that to deliver better quality.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, digital advertising is a complicated optimization problem, right, for all the reasons you mentioned.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess what it sounds like you're trying to do is just reduce the dimensions of that a little bit for a client.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And there are always going to be questions about how that is done, and um that might link to some of the uh concerns you you mentioned uh as well.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe looking at some of the opportunities that the ecosystem has access to as a result of curation, Julie, what would you say the greatest ones are for an agency, a publisher, and um you know, an a tech partner?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: So how could they collaborate to build a stronger uh marketplace strategy?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think the key to the success of all the all of this is that, you know, uh, like Nick was saying, this can definitely help buyers or you know, brands, um, but it should also benefit the publisher for them to be you know willingly participate in these types of marketplaces and things like that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um complexity is I think the number one uh issue, like Nick was saying, you know, years back, especially on the CTV side, you have maybe like three broadcasters, and that was pretty much it.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh now you have an endless stream of content, different providers, everyone has a different setup, everything is just very complex.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think as an ad tech partner, obviously, you know, we are sitting very closely to the supply.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: So our uh our our goal here is to make it easier and to make it uh possible to create less complexity.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, from an agency point of view, Nick has kind of already discussed all the benefits, um, but I think from a publisher point of view as well, you know, it gives them the opportunity to show the value of their content, um, to, you know, show the data or make data available.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: So things like ACR data, you know, very important.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then that will give them access to maybe unique demand that they didn't have um before.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so that will drive incremental revenue, obviously.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's a role for each of us to play as long as we kind of work together and everyone benefits from it and make it better.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we're going kind of, you know, from back in the day, like I said, when I started, it was a sort of a one-to-one.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: You would call the publisher and say, okay, I want to, you know, buy this inventory and you, you know, it's an IO type of thing.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Then it went sort of completely the other way to like programmatic.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: You can buy anything at, you know, at the click of a button.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but what am I actually buying?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: And is this actually what I think I'm buying?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: And now we're kind of going back to almost like a hybrid of it.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and because of the technology that has evolved and innovation, like we said, innovation is really hard, but you know, coming um AI coming into it, you know, I think there's fantastic opportunities with real-time optimizations done by AI agents and things like that.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's really super interesting.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, generally speaking, I think there's uh still quite there's definitely maturity compared to maybe two years ago, but there's still quite a bit to do, and especially when it comes to things like applying data um and and doing that in a privacy compliant way as well, depending on where you are in Europe and things like that.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Really interesting what you mentioned about the um mode of buying and selling digital media changing and these uh swings.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, do you think that perhaps curation will offer a way of buying and selling media uh that is a bit more stable and we don't have another swing in the near future?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you do you think that you know agentic advertising might just completely redefine everything?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see kind of the next uh uh the next evolution of things?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's a very good question.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think Agentic will, at this point, from what I've seen, it is more about making workflows more efficient and uh potentially more accurate.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, there's less room for human error.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: On the flip side, though, there's room for AI error.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you still also need a human.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think it's really, really hard to predict like where it's going because it's moving really, really quickly.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like there's probably things that we can't even envision at the moment that will be, you know, sort of table stakes, maybe in five years.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um so but yeah, I it's to be seen.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know there's a lot of consolidation happening as well.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: So yes, we saw this sort of mushrooming of, you know, content providers and fast channels and you know, new streamers and things like that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think there will be consolidation.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: There's only so much content we can watch, but then there might be a whole new type of content that we don't even know yet, like a Sora or something that will explode.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: I I think it's really interesting time, but it's hard to predict at this point.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's fair.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry, go ahead, Nick.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, Demetrian, I was just gonna sort of set one of your points there, which is about sort of like stability, let's say, and I seem like it's just worth putting into context, right?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is I think we sort of see on average about sort of 66% there thereabouts, sort of, you know, between that and 70% of all open exchange is flowing through a Q mark curated marketplace deal globally right now.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's you know, that's about$150 billion there or thereabouts.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's not like we're sort of saying in any shape or form that there's um you know creation's still got a few uh a bit to go.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely fundamental to all of the major advertisers on the planet right now are predominantly buying through some type of curated marketplace as well.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think actually it's building on that success and probably enriching it and weeding out, I would say, some of the uh either poor performing or where we see some miscellaneous type content in particular, where I think brand safety plays a really important role in ensuring that people are actually getting what they said they were getting for.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like we're seeing mass stability, and I think we're building on that year and year as we go.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you drop in the point around agentic, which like you know, we're only a couple of months out from CAN, so the buzzwords are fully in full flow, right?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And agentic is absolutely one of them.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think agentic will just make it even more efficient, more than anything.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um we will be able to do a lot of setup and take out more of the complexity on how we have to manage it so we can ensure that we're optimizing faster as workflow management.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think like your point of you know, is curation uh got more together.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's it's really real, it's really present.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big thing and it's working really well.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, I guess both curation and agentic, one thing they have in common, it's about making advertising uh easier and uh more more efficient.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean going back to Julie's point, I think I would agree that right now uh agentic use cases are mostly centered around providing another layer over an existing stack rather than redefining redefining the stack.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm sure this is you know subject to change potentially.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not really disruption if you can see it coming all the way.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I'd be interested to to see how curation evolves as well if uhgentick does become more disruptive.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess the the main answer to the question is that you you you see curation as something that's here, here to stay, and more of a uh of a stable uh state.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh is that right, Nick?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important and it's working.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So sticking with this uh theme of uh making some uh predictions in the next three years, um, when we talk about uh Magnite Densu and uh marketplace strategy, what does success look like?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: What is the condition for success uh in your in your view?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Julie, we can we can start with you again.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think this is probably more uh a question for Nick, to be honest, but I mean for for for Magnite for sure, um, I think uh we're as Nick said, it's absolutely there, curation is there, we're doing it, um, but I definitely think there's uh room to grow.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I'm you know, like I said, I work across all of Europe and not every market is at the same level.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: Some markets are slightly more um traditional, have different ways of working.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's definitely room there to grow.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I would love to do that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously with DEN2, we have a fantastic relationship across the whole of Europe.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we'd like to uh improve that uh and and grow grow that.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then I think again, not just early, sorry, sorry to come back to agentic, but um, you know, we've just launched our uh buyer agent, we have a seller agent, and it's looking extremely interesting.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, you know, some of it is workflows, but things like, you know, a lot of things that are quite manual at the moment, like reading a brief and ingesting the information and what are you doing with that, and how do you build then a plan and how do you then execute it?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: All these things I think are going to be somehow automated or agendaified, if that's a word.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that's super interesting.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we hope to do a lot of uh that with Tensu uh within the marketplaces that we have and um improve the you know efficiency, make it even better and create even better outcomes with hopefully less waste, less maybe uh errors and things like that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and yeah, hopefully we can work on that for the next three years.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I hope Nick agrees.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nick, do you agree?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Domitha, I want to break your question down just uh uh into a few different parts, that's it, right?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Which would be let's talk about like success metrics, which are just ongoing, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're just they're they're they're just compliant things that we must adhere to.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, number one for that really clearly is to ensure that clients continue to get what they need to deliver a business result, like without us delivering that, the whole layer of curation is just worthless, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: That is the number one fundamental thing that we have to do.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: The second on that is then continuing to use the the spend that goes through it to support really good quality publishing in particular.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like publishing environments have taken a pounding in the last decade with the this huge onslaught of content.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh that we have a role in making a better digital society to ensure that we are supporting the right publishers that are doing brand safe content and are adhering to the all the correct policies that we that you as the IAB have set out.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think in that if we continue to do that, we continue to create good quality environments, not just for our clients who are invest and effectively help fund all of this world that that we know and we love, but for us as consumers, right, and all of that.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So they're the the two elements which is just unquestionable.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot can we cannot continue unless we get we get those right.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're thinking about from a marketplace solution or curation solution and and what we're sort of looking at and how we think it evolved, I think we're on the the cusp of a really new exciting kind of uh technical blueprint in the world of programmatic.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um programmatic has been using in effect the same mapping or construct from a compute powering for the last 10 maybe 15 years of that.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the um the world of uh energentic real-time workflow or ARTF as it's been sort of uh acronymed as we're at a completely different understanding of what compute power is gonna be.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And to make that really simple, because there's terminology being thrown around everywhere here, like the onset of sales-side decisioning, I think, is gonna have a significant impact in changing on how we think about curated marketplaces.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: The the construct of curated marketplaces will be exactly the same, right?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly as what all we've just discovered.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: The speed of how we can get to that decisioning factor and the amount of data that we can understand will completely change the way we think about the DSP-SSP relationships in particular.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I would say, you know, if we're looking at ways to make curation even better, there's probably a lot of discussion to be had about what you mentioned around publisher revenues and how brand safety policies affect them.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: And what are these brand safety policies and how does the tooling implement the brand safety policy as well?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, perhaps we can uh have you back, Nick, at some point in the future, maybe after cell side decisioning has uh incubated a bit more, and we can explore uh the future uh for curated marketplaces uh even more.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Happily.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I'm sure we could um I you know it's a real passion that we've got.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it could border on the fact that I'm gonna bore people to it, but hopefully not.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's um it's a massive topic.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, again, I think post-can, you're gonna hear a lot of news about this.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really heating up, and I think there's a lot of pressure on the the major big tech platforms to sort of get this strategy correct.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, looking forward to see how it evolves.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's finish with uh quick fire round.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we're gonna start with Julie first and then come back to you, Nick.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Julie, coffee meeting or conference networking?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh coffee meeting.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: And the country escape or city break.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um country.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Nick, coffee meeting or conference networking?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Coffee meeting every time.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: And uh on the subject of influence podcast book or person you follow?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I follow uh quite a bit of Adam Heimlich, the the CEO and founder of Chalice.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um prints because of the sales side decisioning stuff at the moment.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think his podcast, which is on um YouTube, I tech ad talk, I think it's quite interesting.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: When you want to chill out, like I do.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh country escape or city break.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go City Break.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you both uh for sharing uh your insights on curation.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: I really enjoyed the discussion and I'm hoping it's gonna be quite useful to our audience as well.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having us.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers to Metrius.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for tuning in.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back with a new episode very soon.
• 40:58
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• 41:03
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• 41:13
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