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Great Design Removes Barriers With Brad Scott · We Built This Brand

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Well, what's, what's interesting is, and, and this is the
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part about accessibility that how we approach it from Applied
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is it's, it's based on the principles of universal design.
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And basically the principle of universal design is just because we had
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people with vision impairment or with low vision in mind when we're
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designing it, doesn't mean that it helps people who don't have low vision.
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Welcome to We Built This Brand, where we pull back the
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curtain on the people, the ideas, and the sometimes
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challenging process of building something that matters.
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Today, I'm joined by Brad Scott, founder and principal at Applied
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Design, a New York-based creative agency whose work spans landmark
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institutions like Grand Central Terminal and the World Trade Center.
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Brad and his team also created Atkinson Hyperlegible, a
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typeface design for the Braille Institute that broke typographic
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convention to help people with low vision read more easily.
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It went on to win a Fast Company Innovation by Design
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award and land in the Smithsonian's permanent collection.
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In this conversation, we dig into how a branding project turned into one of
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the most widely adopted accessibility typefaces in the world, and what it looks
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like to build a firm that tackles everything from transit systems to typography.
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So without further ado, here's my conversation
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with Brad Scott at Applied Design.
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Brad, welcome to We Built This Brand.
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It's great to have you.
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Thanks, Chris, for having me.
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Absolutely.
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Happy to do it, and glad you could make the time.
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Today, we're here to talk to you, um, about your time
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with Applied Design and everything you're doing, um, with
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the Atkinson Hyperlegible and Hyperlegible Next fonts.
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Um, so I'm really excited to dive into that.
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But before we do, I'd love to start off with your backstory.
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How'd you get your start?
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How did I get my start?
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Well, interestingly, I have a degree in clothing, textiles, and interiors.
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Interesting.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I d- That's usually the response I get.
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People are kind of like, "How, how did you end up here?"
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The way that I actually ended up here was my degree being that
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it was in interior design, and my program that I was studying was
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more focused on space planning and programming, which at the time
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was, you know, basically how you move people through space, right?
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How do you use visual cuing?
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How do you use materials?
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How do you use room layout to basically help
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people, you know, move through an interior?
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And that was… You know, I graduated in 1996, and it was roughly when
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the web was starting to take off, and I basically took what I learned
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from interior design, from space planning and pr- programming, and started
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to apply that to CD-ROM and web development, and that's kinda how I
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crossed over into more communications, visual, and, uh, graphic design.
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Okay.
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So, so one kind of begot the other and then led you into this design space.
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So where did, where did you go from there?
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Like, what, um, what, I guess, sparked the journey
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to where, to where you got to apply design?
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Because you're… Designing a font is not the same
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as, you know, textiles or even moving through spaces.
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I mean, it still has a, a visual flow to it, but, um,
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I'm just really curious how, how did all that come about?
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I started my career in, in web development when it was first taking
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off, which really made me interested in usability and human factors.
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Human factors are a huge part of what I was studying anyway, because if you
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think about it from the context of, like, designing chairs and designing
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counters and those types of things, humans factors were really critical to that.
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But then as I got into user interface design, it was really
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interesting to start looking at how human factors played into
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people being able to, you know, navigate through information spaces.
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Um, and interestingly, it was kind of… It was very similar.
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People had the same problems, right?
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There were barriers to reaching their destination, and it
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became kind of a question of how do we help people along
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that path, and how do we help them along that journey?
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So I did that for a couple years, and then at a startup that was
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called Clear Inc., they no longer exist, but one of the coolest
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places I ever worked, and, um, I kind of laughingly said I wanted
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to take a corporate job, and I was hired at Landor Associates.
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And Landor is one of the foremost agencies in brand, in
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brand development, and that kind of shifted me a bit.
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So I got hired in as the digital… I was a design director for
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digital or interactive or whatever they wanted to call it at the time.
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Alternative media, I think even at one point is what they were calling it.
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And, um, that kind of put me on that trajectory of brand building, and I was
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very fortunate to get on some pretty high-profile projects kind of immediately
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in the late '90s, and that started kind of my interest in typography, graphic
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design, communications design, um, you know, kind of all the things that you
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think about when you think of traditional advertising comms and branding.
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So, so you, you did a startup and then you went on to Landor.
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Um, I can identify with that a little bit.
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I spent some time doing a startup that failed
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and had to go back into the real world.
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Um, I don't know if they failed though.
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I shouldn't say that.
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No, they were actually very successful, so yeah.
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Yeah, they, they took it to acquisition,
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so it actually merged with another agency.
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Excellent.
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But you learned from there.
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Yeah, yeah.
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My… The guy who ran it, his name's David Burke.
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He's, he's still a friend of mine, so I have to, I have
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to make sure I let everybody know it was successful.
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That's a great name.
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I know another g- uh, David Burke just from my personal life.
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So when you say David, I'm like, "That's not a common name, David Burke."
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But anyways, awesome.
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That's really cool.
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So then what motivated you to start Applied Design after
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having gone through the corporate world for a little while?
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Um, why'd you do it?
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Why'd you move on to your own thing?
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You know, ever since I was a little kid, I always kind of hustled.
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I, uh, I had a paper route.
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I would do, you know, ran like a lawn mowing business, things like that.
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So like, I think it was pretty inevitable that
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at some point I was gonna start a business.
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In fact, my college professor, it was really interesting,
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I was in the business school originally, and I was really
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struggling 'cause I was like, "I, I just, I just don't like this.
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I don't, I don't like kind of finance and corporate
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business," you know, those types of things.
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And I was talking to my advisor and she's like, "Well, w- w- what
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do you really wanna do?" I said, "Well, I like to build things and
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I like to design things." And she looked at me and she said, "You
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know, you don't have to have a business degree to run a business."
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And that was kind of like, that was the moment where I was like,
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"Uh, n- no kidding." It's like, you know, just to a certain… You
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know, being an entrepreneur is about being an entrepreneur and not
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necessarily understanding, you know, which months are five weeks
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and which ones carry over and, and, you know, accruing revenue.
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So it was, it was kind of like a big moment where I was like, okay, I
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can go down this path of doing what- I'm pretty good at and what I enjoy,
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and it's not gonna close the door on potentially owning my own business.
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So then it kind of became a question of, like,
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how do you get the experience to do it, right?
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And when I came out, like I said, I joined
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Clear Inc., then I was at, I was at WPP.
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You know, Landor was actually owned by Y&R and then WPP.
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So what was really fascinating about my journey
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kind of inside of Landor, I was there for 16 years.
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Like, I expected to only be there for a couple
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of years, but I kept kind of moving around.
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So I, I worked in three different offices, and I went from
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being a designer to a strategist to a general manager.
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So what was really interesting in that was,
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like, I kept learning the whole way, right?
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So, like, I was learning about design, and I was, like, filling
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in gaps that I had specific- in- interestingly typographical gaps.
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Like, my typography skills coming out of interior design were terrible.
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So now being at Landor, I became very kind of aware of typography.
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And then I was kind of starting to learn more about business strategy.
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And then because I became a general manager, I learned
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more about kind of the finance side of running an agency.
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And That all kind of culminated at the same time of when we were
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realizing really quickly that as much as I was enjoying Landor, I really
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wanted to be able to provide a slightly different service to the, the
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clients that I was working with, which like really kind of allowed us
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to get a little bit more into the weeds on their, on their projects
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and kind of being a little bit more like, like embedded with them.
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And, and that's something that kind of in a larger,
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larger agency structure is slightly challenging to do.
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Um, and so that was really the impetus for starting Applied was
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exactly that, was that we wanted to be able to bring really strong
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strategic services to a client, but we more importantly wanted to
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make sure that those strategies and the design and the like kind
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of ongoing evaluation of those programs, um, was, was being met.
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That, that we were doing that for the clients and that we were able to like
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start making adjustments as we s- saw things that needed to be adjusted
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and that we could start making modifications to strategies as we saw those.
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And like I said, it was just, um … It, it
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didn't really fit in with the larger model.
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And I think probably because you need kind of a smaller client for that.
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Like, like those types of clients tend to be more like
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challenging, challenger brand clients versus like the larger
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Procter & Gambles and Colgates of the world and those types of places.
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They definitely get to a place where … Yeah, like you, you found a niche.
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You found, you found something it sounds like that, um, was
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a need, and you moved into it, and I think that's always a
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really good, um, you know, opportunity for a new business.
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You find something someone else doesn't wanna do, and you
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go and be that resource that can do it for those people.
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That's 100% correct.
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I mean, what we were noticing was … So my business partner and I, uh,
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Craig Dobie, he was … So he and I were running the Verizon account.
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So we were the AOR for design for Verizon, so for
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Verizon Land and Verizon Wireless at the time.
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And we came off of that And we picked up a couple of, like, smaller clients.
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Uh, we picked up, like, World Trade Center, and we picked up a couple
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others, and what we were realizing was, was exactly that, was, like, the
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clients needed the strategy and the design, but more importantly, they
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needed kind of the advocate once it was into the marketplace, right?
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They really needed kind of the agency to almost become like their
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in-house marketing or design firm to be able to then con- continue to
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develop the, the, the branding and also develop it as the, as the market
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changed, you know, as kind of perceptions changed and things like that.
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So that was exactly why we even named the company Applied, right?
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It was about the application of the design work, not just the
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beginning and strategy phases of it, but the actual application of it.
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Yeah.
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Well, when you get into smaller companies, the,
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the marketing leadership starts to shrink, right?
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Like, my small business is at a point
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where I'm the chief marketing officer, too.
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So, you know, I'm, I'm sure you probably f- have felt that at some
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point along your journey as well, and, you know, it's a challenge to,
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to think about resourcing, you know, larger firms for quality work.
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Like, it can be hard, so, um, I think it's great that you moved into that space.
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So, so you were doing all that.
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So tell me how Atkinson Hyperlegible came about.
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What was the, what was the, um, the genesis of that?
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idea.
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It was an interesting project because Braille
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Institute came to us basically for a rebrand.
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Um, they were coming into their 100th anniversary, and they wanted to signal
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to the market that they were still there and that they were still relevant
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and that they were providing services that were a little bit different
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than what they started out with 100 years prior but were just as important.
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And, um, to understand this a little bit, you know, Braille literacy was
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their founding mission, and Braille was incredibly expensive to produce and
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was not available to people broadly who, who needed to learn to, A, read
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Braille, and secondly, have publications that were, like, available to them.
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So, you know, Braille's founding by Atkinson, who, who was
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the founder of, of Braille, was to both increase literacy
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and increase the availability of, you know, books basically.
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The first book they actually translated was the Bible, and it took up…
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Like, I'm sitting in a room right now that's probably 12 by 20, and
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it would fill this room, that one copy of the, of the Braille Bible.
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Yeah, it was pretty wild.
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And so through their 100 years, you know, they were advocates
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for people who n- who needed to learn how to read Braille.
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And then eventually they were successful, and they were able to lobby
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and to get things put into the educational system, and there were,
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you know, programs that, that helped people who needed to learn it.
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And what started to happen was they started to shift their mission,
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obviously still keeping to their core, but shifting to low vision.
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So what's happening with low vision right now is people
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are s- are, um, living longer, and that's awesome, but
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one of the issues is we start to lose our eyesight.
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Okay?
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So they were finding that there was an increased need for services
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for people who weren't necessarily totally blind but people who
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were rapidly losing their vision in, and in many different ways.
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You know, we're talking kind of beyond, like, just blurry vision.
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You know?
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It's … This was, like, macular degeneration and diabetic, diabetic retinopathy
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and, like, the, these very kind of serious things that can happen very rapidly.
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And a lot of the services that they provided to the people who
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were totally blind really helped the people with low vision.
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So the goal of the rebrand was to help kind of reestablish
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Braille as an advocate not only for Braille literacy
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and total blindness but for people with low vision.
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And that was the brief.
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They were like, "Okay, how do we do that?" And, you know,
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we went through the typical process, you know, like you do.
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It's like, okay, let's do our executive interviews and do
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our market analysis and, you know, you start looking for
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areas that they can play and all those types of things.
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And it became very obvious to the design team that Craig and
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Elliot specifically, that If we were gonna move forward with a
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new identity, we had to make sure that the font selection that we
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were choosing would be easily read by somebody with low vision.
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But it also had to be equally, like, aesthetically pleasing.
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And, and, and that's where there really wasn't anything
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on the market, or there wasn't anything that we could
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find at the time that kind of met both criteria, right?
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So we very naively, kind of very quickly kind of sketched out what
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Atkinson Hyperlegible would look like, pitched it to the Braille Institute.
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They immediately saw the value in it and completely understood it as
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not only something that was going to make the brand stand out, but also
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was a further touchpoint in their advocacy for people with low vision.
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Because they saw the opportunity to be able to develop this and
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then, you know, basically, um, license it under an open source
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license so that everybody could have access to this worldwide.
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That is such a cool project to be a part of.
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I mean, just from a personal perspective, like my grandmother has low vision.
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Um, she's in her 90s, so kind of comes with the territory,
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but some of it's macular deg- generation and stuff like that.
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Um, so the work that you all are doing, I mean, I'm sure has an impact
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on her on some level, and you know, I just think that's really cool.
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That's, that's a really neat thing to do.
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I've never designed a font before.
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Neither had we.
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That was a first time for us, too.
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So what was that process like, taking, um… Having to
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develop, you know, the alphabet, the, all, all that stuff?
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Like, I mean, you're working with the Braille Institute, so you probably
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had some experts on-hand to make sure y'all were doing it right.
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But what was that process like, like the actual design workflows of that?
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Like, you don't have to get into the nitty-gritty, but I'm just really curious.
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Well, it, it was interesting 'cause we were completely
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naive as to what it was gonna take to, um, get this thing
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completed to a point where it could be released, right?
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It's a lot easier to get it to the point where you could use
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it as a designer for like a dis- like more as a decorative
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font, where it doesn't really have to function as a real font.
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But to get it to be available to be able to be downloaded from
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Google Fonts, for example, it had to meet certain criteria.
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It had to certain, have a certain number of character
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counts and character pairs, and things like that.
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So that was like the real process, was, okay, how do, how do we
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actually get it to the point that it can be commercially released?
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Now, the actual design of it was interesting because it was
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really… You know, the thing about typography is it's a, th-
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there's a very rich and documented history around it, right?
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We, we, we know what makes things easier to read.
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We know- What makes things difficult to read?
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So the, the key behind Atkinson Hyperlegible
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is what's called letter differentiation.
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Okay?
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So if you think about it, you know, we've all done this.
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Uh, y- you, you're reading something and you're like, "Is that a one?
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Is that an I?
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Is that a lowercase… Is that an L?
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Is that a lowercase L?" So right there you have a numeral
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one, you have an I, and you have a lowercase L, and all three
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of those characters in some fonts almost look identical.
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They're almost u- unperceptively different, right?
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Which is, which is called harmony.
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And when you design something, a lot of times
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typographers wanna kind of create that harmony.
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It's what makes Helvetica so great, right?
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Is that it's a very kind of rationalized font.
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The thing that makes Helvetica challenging to somebody
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with low vision is that there isn't differentiation
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between certain characters that often get confused, right?
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So like I said, there's the one, the L, and the I.
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There's also an eight, the numeral eight, and B, right?
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So what we were looking to do was to, like, really break, like, like- Create
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differentiation between those, those letters so that when you scan the page,
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you could tell that's an I, that's a 1, that's a 0, that's an 8, that's a B.
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Okay?
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But we wanted to do it in a way that didn't
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look like a ransom note, 'cause you could.
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I mean, if, if… I, I think, like, what, what we learned that was really
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interesting was, y- you know, a lot of teachers, I don't, I don't know
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if you have children or not, but, like, they use, they use Comic Sans.
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And you're like…
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And I thought they used Comic Sans because it was kids, right?
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They actually use Comic Sans because Comic
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Sans has, has ver- has letter differentiation.
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So when kids are learning to read, it's actually easier for them to
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read a, a font like Comic Sans because there's, there, there's not a
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lot of harmony between the, the character sets, so they can literally
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spot those and say, "Oh, that's an 8 and that's an L and that's an I."
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But now put it to corporate wor- into, like, a corporate
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world, you can't use Comic Sans as somebody's corporate font.
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Like, it just isn't gonna have the tone that it wants, right?
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So, so that's what we were doing.
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So the process was, was to, like, take these kind of, these, these
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known components of typography that we know enhanced legibility,
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develop a character set that would be differentiated, but that also
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looked good together and looked cool, and it didn't have a ransom note.
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So that was, like, literally hand-drawing letters at that point.
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Like, okay, so what's the I gonna look like, right?
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It, it's right behind me, by the way.
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You can see the I, the I, the uppercase I, L, B, and 8.
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Those are, like, kind of the primaries.
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You know, what are the tails gonna look at, look like?
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What are the counters gonna look like?
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And, and, and that was a process of just making sure
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that we had something that looked interesting together,
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but definitely they were differentiated letter forms.
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That's really neat that you were doing it like that, because,
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I mean, I can't… Just in personal text use, like I can't
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tell you the number of times I've been like, "Is that a one?
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Is that an L?" Like, in some fonts you don't know, and, um, I can
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see how someone who has reading impairment, that becomes more and
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more of an issue. I mean, the thing I've heard from my grandmother
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as she's gotten older has been, "I can't read that anymore.
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I can't see that the way I used to." You know, and just finding ways to make
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things more legible for her has been something we've had to work hard at.
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B- buying her tablets so she can, you know,
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see the larger fonts and things like that.
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So that's- that's really neat, 'cause I mean, even- even as you move your
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head and I see the words behind you, I can see… I mean, that- that font
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to me, um, when w- when we're filming these things, yeah, for those, for
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those watching, but- but I can actually see the, um, the differentiation in
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that lowercase L, and I think that- that in and of itself is just awesome.
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I appreciate that a lot.
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So that- that- that little tail, um, is- is what differentiates it.
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And what's interesting is in Hyper- this- so this is
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Hyperlegible, this was the first version behind me.
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In Hyperlegible Next we actually extended, so it's called the- the cap height.
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So right now if you look at that, it's the L and the B are the same height.
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We extended now the L is actually taller than the B, which also, like,
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further, like, enhances the ability to differentiate that particular letter.
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So, you know, so the I, the capital I isn't the same height
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as the capital L. So this was kind of the cool part, right?
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So we- we- when we launched it All of a sudden we started getting all this,
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like, you know, the floodgates opened and, like, people who had been kind of
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working on different components of this, like, in legibility, they started
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reaching out to us and they're like, "Hey, did you know if you open up the
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counter of the E even more, it's gonna increase legibility by X amount?
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If you increase the cap height of certain letters, it helps to differentiate
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it because then it, like, helps the…" So, like, it was kind of amazing,
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like, like how much, like, once it was out there, people wanted to, like,
23:17
start giving us, you know, suggestions on how to even make it more legible.
23:23
So we, we, we did that for, we basically, you know, took
23:27
about two years worth of feedback, collated that, and
23:31
then used that to create, um, the next version of it.
23:35
Yeah.
23:35
And that became what is now Atkinson Hyperlegible Next.
23:39
Is that right?
23:40
That's correct, yes.
23:41
Yeah.
23:41
And that's the new font that if you're looking
23:44
for a font to use, you should probably check out.
23:47
Yeah.
23:47
It's also, the other thing with that one is it's a variable font,
23:51
and this gets back to the mission of Braille, was by making it
23:56
a variable font, and again, releasing it for, like, unrestricted
24:00
commercial use, which, which is a really big deal from, from the…
24:03
I m- I mean, it's huge.
24:05
Like, people don't quite understand how big of a deal that
24:07
is because, um, I mean, even people in the industry don't.
24:11
Because basically what Braille has said is, "You can use this font
24:15
for anything. So whether that's personal use or whether that's
24:18
making money, or whether it's for, you know, m- it's a logo type,
24:23
like, you can use this font and we're not gonna charge you for it."
24:26
Because typically with a commercial font, depending on the usage
24:30
of the font, there's a different cost that's involved with it.
24:33
Whereas Braille was like, "No, this is completely available
24:35
to you to use at your discretion. We just, we always
24:38
own it." You know, that was always their caveat with it.
24:40
But Back to the variable component, you know, they made
24:44
the decision to move far- forward with the development of
24:47
the variable font so that it could be embedded in the apps.
24:51
So just like you were talking about with your grandmother, you
24:54
know, we wanted to reduce the barrier to, like, Amazon using it in
24:58
the Kindle and, you know, American Airlines using it in their, in
25:02
their app for online because the variable font is what makes that
25:05
legibility and adoption, like, really, really much more easier.
25:10
Yeah.
25:10
I just… I, I love that 'cause I know, you know, being in podcasting,
25:14
like, the- this industry has a very interesting edge of, like, some of what
25:19
podcasting allows is for people who are visually impaired to listen to content.
25:24
Conversely, people who can't hear need transcripts.
25:28
So accessibility has been something I've been learning about over
25:31
the years, and I'm, I'm by no means perfect at it, but I definitely
25:35
think that, um, accessibility is something more people should be
25:38
thinking about, you know, as they create content and things like that.
25:42
And knowing… Like, I, I didn't realize that
25:44
Atkinson Hyperlegible existed on this scale.
25:48
I think I've run across it just in browsing the web and
25:50
stuff or, you know, picking fonts for a website or something.
25:53
But now that I know that it's, you know, a, a font that's
25:57
specifically for this, like, that, that helps me even think
26:00
through design flow and, you know, things like that for a site.
26:03
Do you have, you know, support on your
26:05
site for people that are visually impaired?
26:07
Is that important to you?
26:08
Well, then, then you should probably think about that
26:10
font for your website or, um, you know, for, for any use.
26:15
So I think that's, that's really neat.
26:17
And, um, you know, typically I ask, um, you know, more about
26:21
the business, like, what was that moment of validation for you?
26:24
But this is a big project, so I- I'm gonna ask it here,
26:26
like, and you may have already answered it a little bit.
26:29
But what was that moment of validation with this project that made you
26:32
go, "We're doing something real. We're doing something impactful. This
26:35
isn't just, you know, grasping at straws trying to make it right"?
26:39
Um, you know, not that you were grasping
26:41
at straws, but you, you know what I mean.
26:42
Like, there's always that moment of, like, is it gonna take off?
26:45
Are people gonna like it, or are we just, um… You
26:48
know, is this just an exercise in creating a font?
26:50
That's a great question.
26:51
And, and I don't have, like, a single answer to it
26:54
because I think it kind of went through phases, right?
26:57
When we first launched it, I think the thing that was most
27:01
validating and we were, we, we knew that we were onto something
27:05
was that we immediately received, like, positive feedback on it.
27:09
Like, like, and, and, and when I say, I mean, like, it w- it
27:12
was, it was amazing to get somebody writing to you to say,
27:17
"Hey, did you know if you open this up, this is gonna be…
27:20
If, if you do this one thing, it's even gonna make it better." So, you
27:24
know, g- receiving, like, like, people were taking the time to actually
27:27
reach out and want to contribute said to us, like, there's something here.
27:32
I think the other thing was, was, you know, just
27:35
getting, like, p- just people being excited to have it.
27:38
Like, we were, you know, the Braille Institute was
27:40
receiving emails, and we were receiving emails.
27:43
Kind of similar to your story, like, my, my grandmother has low vision.
27:46
This is what's going on.
27:47
I hacked k- the Kindle, literally.
27:49
I hacked the Kindle to put this on her Kindle, and she is reading better now.
27:55
She's enjoying reading again, right?
27:57
And, and it's, it's like that's kind of remarkable is when
28:00
you hear somebody say she's enjoying reading again Right?
28:04
That, that means that you're, you're, you, you've put … You,
28:07
you've made somebody's life just a little bit better, right?
28:10
Like, like, like, I love to read, I can't read, and now all of a
28:14
sudden I can again, without as, you know, without as much hindrance.
28:18
So we started to get that kind of stuff, right?
28:20
That was, that was pretty cool.
28:23
It kind of was a, I wouldn't call it a slow
28:25
burn, but it wasn't a real fast burn either.
28:28
So for the first year, it, it, it kind of kept gaining momentum, and
28:32
then all of a sudden it started getting picked up by corporate websites.
28:36
So all of a sudden it was like, it was in, um, Blue Origin, it was
28:41
like one of their options for… I mean, I guess if you want to go to
28:43
the moon, you could, you know, you could choose Atkinson Hyperlegible.
28:47
That was kind of cool.
28:48
But for me, the, the biggest one was it ended up in Canva.
28:52
Like it was one of the standard fonts that was inside of Canva.
28:56
And we were like, "Whoa, this is gonna, this is pretty cool now."
29:00
I, I mean, it's always cool, but you're kind of like, "Wow, Canva,
29:02
like Canva picked this up." And then Google Fonts picked it up,
29:06
and then that like kind of unlocked a lot of the distribution.
29:10
So that, so that was kind of like a year-ish in, and then
29:13
we started seeing academic institutions picking it up.
29:16
So we saw the UC pro- you know, the UC school starting to
29:20
do, and then we started seeing like government sites picking
29:23
it up as part of their initiatives for accessibility.
29:27
And then, you know, ultimately, like we started seeing like it's being
29:32
served, you know, 40 million times a week now off of, uh, Google Fonts.
29:38
And, you know, you start seeing that kind of stuff and you're like,
29:41
"Oh, that, that's, that's, that's pretty interesting. It's starting
29:44
to really gain momentum." So that was… You know, th- that's kind
29:47
of how we knew that like people were finding it and were using
29:51
it and were appreciating it, and it was kind of wild actually.
29:57
It's, it's like… But it didn't happen all at once.
30:00
It took, it took a little bit of time.
30:02
And then ultimately, I think as a designer, what was
30:06
phenomenal was when we got the call from the Smithsonian
30:10
to put it into the permanent collection of the Smithsonian.
30:13
And I was like, that was just kind of mind-blowing.
30:15
We thought it was… We didn't even think, we didn't think it was real.
30:18
It was funny, Elliot Scott, who was the creative director on the
30:20
project, he called, called me and he's like, "I just got this email.
30:25
It looks like it's from the Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian, but I'm not sure that
30:29
it's real." And, you know, of course we're like, "There's no way it's real."
30:32
And we, we looked into it, and sure enough it was.
30:34
And, and, and they, you know, they had reached out to let us know
30:38
that they were gonna be putting it for it to go into the permanent
30:41
collection at the Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian, and then ultimately.
30:45
So it's hard not to brag about it, but it's pretty cool.
30:48
It was, it was like for, for me as a designer, I was like,
30:50
wow, like this really caught the attention of like…
30:53
Enough that it's actually being archived in
30:56
perpetuity, which I thought was pretty cool.
30:58
Just to be able to say that something you've
31:00
contributed to gotten to the Smithsonian That's amazing.
31:04
I mean, that's really cool.
31:05
I didn't… I don't think I realized it had
31:07
been there yet, but that's, that's awesome.
31:09
So, so, so you got to the point where, where this is
31:11
now in the Smithsonian, and you've made an update.
31:14
Now you've got Hyperlegible Next.
31:16
So, um, what's the big, what's, what's the big improvement with Next?
31:21
Why is it the next version?
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32:06
Again, another really good question.
32:07
And I think the thing that's really important about the development
32:11
of Hyper Atkinson Legible is about making people's lives better.
32:15
Okay?
32:16
And the first version did it at kind of a very, like,
32:19
I would say, kind of basic typographic level, right?
32:23
You could get the thing to work.
32:26
You could use it in, in Word and things like that, or you could use it for
32:29
your print pieces, or teachers could use it in their classroom materials.
32:34
But there were some, just some inconsistencies in the original cut that kind
32:39
of made it a little bit difficult to implement it inside of apps, right?
32:43
So inside of, you know, handheld device applications and things like that.
32:47
And we knew that that was like, we had to engineer those out to
32:52
be able to get the adoption into, like, things like the Kindle and
32:55
things like the iPhone and Android phones and things like that.
32:58
So that was really the genesis for it, was to, like, kinda iron out the issues
33:03
that were preventing it from being kinda broadly adopted in the digital world.
33:07
So that's why we decided to move forward with a variable font.
33:11
The benefit of moving forward with a variable font is it also
33:14
very rapidly allows you to develop other weights of that font.
33:19
So when it was originally released, there was just basically two weights.
33:23
There was regular and bold and an italics version And
33:28
with, uh, Next it basically allows us to have multiple
33:32
weights that are available for the distribution.
33:34
So people could have a thinner one and even a thicker one,
33:37
but that were all being algorithmically adapted to the screen
33:42
so that they, so that the legibility remained the same.
33:46
Because what the… Doing a variable font allowed us to do was
33:50
like, like not… If it went super bold, like you know when you
33:54
just hit bold in Word, it just kinda makes everything bigger, right?
33:57
It just, it just kinda fills in, it fills in the counters, for example, right?
34:02
So with a variable font, what we were able to do is when you use the bolder
34:06
version, we were able to tell the, you know, the machine or the device, "Don't
34:12
fill this in." Like, 'cause that's one of the le- legibility components, right?
34:17
Like, that's what makes this particular character more legible.
34:21
So now as a variable font, we weren't leaving it up to the computer necessarily.
34:26
We were leaving it, you know, we were telling it, "Okay, this is how
34:29
you need to render this thing." So that's, that's very, that's a lot
34:31
of technical stuff, but the, the net effect of that is it just makes
34:36
it easier for app developers to use the font, make sure that it's
34:40
consistent, and ultimately get to the people that, you know, need it.
34:45
So, so that was it.
34:46
And then the other thing that we did was we also developed a monospaced version.
34:51
So monospaced is like, if you look at it, it looks like machine code kind of.
34:56
It's not, you know, it's like there's, there's spacing in between it.
35:00
Um, and the reason why that was important was that w- that
35:04
allowed people who code, right, so people who are writing code for
35:09
computers and stuff, to actually have a version that they could
35:13
use to continue to be able to do what they do f- as a vocation.
35:17
Plus it looked cool.
35:18
What was, what was interesting about the monospace font though,
35:22
was the very first application of it was actually, um, for
35:26
a cosmetics brand That is all about accessibility, and they
35:32
actually used it in their packaging to increase legibility.
35:35
Plus, and they thought it looked pretty cool.
35:38
So that's, that's how it ended up with that.
35:40
By, by the way, you mentioned Blue Origin earlier, and you're like, "I
35:42
don't know why you would want that," but, like, think about being in space.
35:45
Like, if the temperature changes and you have to put
35:48
a helmet on, all of a sudden your vision is impaired.
35:51
So maybe that's why it's there.
35:53
It's one of those, like, fallbacks they can use if
35:55
they start, you know, being in a low vision situation.
35:59
Well, what's, what's interesting is, and, and this is the part about
36:02
accessibility that, you know, we, how we approach it from Applied is
36:07
it's, it's, it's based on the principles of universal design, right?
36:12
And basically, the principle of universal design is just because we had
36:17
people with vision impairment or with low vision in mind when we're designing
36:20
it doesn't mean that it helps people who don't have low vision, right?
36:25
A- and this is where I think, you know, this is the shift
36:27
that, that I wanna see with accessibility, um, is that
36:32
people think of them as being bifurcated, and they're not.
36:35
It's like if you take an approach of universal design, which is,
36:39
like, that… Atkinson Hyperlegible is a high-legibility font.
36:44
So in instrumentation, it's gonna benefit people with 20/20
36:49
vision, it's gonna benefit people who have low vision, right?
36:52
Because that's what it's designed to do.
36:55
It's designed to, like, be able to be seen, be scanned, be read very quickly.
37:00
So think about it in car instrumentation,
37:03
obviously, you know, space instrumentation.
37:06
Think about it in way finding, things like that, where you're,
37:09
like, kind of quickly scanning and having to see something or you're
37:11
checking an indicator on your dashboard or whatever it happens to be.
37:15
The principle of universal design is this will help you.
37:19
It'll help you no matter where you are on that spectrum
37:21
of vision loss, either at zero or having had a lot of it.
37:26
And I think that that's kind of what makes Atkinson
37:28
Hyperlegible a little bit different, is that it, it proves
37:32
that it can serve an accessibility function without having to
37:38
necessarily compromise the, kind of the look, tone, feel of it.
37:44
And I mean, that's, that's what makes it so interesting and helps it,
37:47
I think, stand out, is just that, that, that intense legibility to it.
37:52
If that makes any sense.
37:53
Like, it really, um, you know, even as I'm, I'm looking, like I've got a, a
37:57
copy of the font open here to my right, and I can see that, you know, it just…
38:02
it looks easy to read.
38:03
Like, it just… Yeah, I think it's great.
38:06
Well, that, that's really neat on the hyper- hyperlegible next piece.
38:09
Tell me a little bit more about, um, Applied Design and
38:13
kind of where you all see, see things going for you.
38:17
I mean, how have things been since the Braille project and
38:20
kind of where, what do you envision as kind of your future now?
38:23
Are you gonna do more in the accessibility space, or is there a path there?
38:27
What are you, where are you all at with that?
38:29
I'm gonna answer that by, like, just saying, like, our client base, it,
38:33
it's, it is something that, that is very important to our client base.
38:37
So we do a lot of work within healthcare and healthcare providers.
38:41
We do a lot of work with transit authorities, so the MTA, the Port Authority.
38:45
And then we do a lot also with, um, retail real estate.
38:49
So those are like, you know, think of malls, things like that.
38:54
And then a lot of what we also do is we work with challenger
38:57
brands for our CPG clients, but all of our CPG clients tend
39:02
to have a really interesting accessibility component to it.
39:05
So I mean, I, I think the short answer is By virtue of the type of clients
39:12
that we have, this is an issue that it's, it's, it's not something they're
39:16
just exploring, it's something that's integral to their businesses.
39:20
So we, we have to kind of continue to understand how, you know,
39:24
things like Atkinson Hyperlegible Next help the people that
39:28
they're serving, but also like, to your point, how any content
39:32
that we're developing or any space that we're developing meets ADA
39:36
standards and generally is just kind of has humanity in it, right?
39:41
Like, that's where it goes back to this idea of universal design,
39:45
which is like, yeah, you can meet the ADA standards, but you can also
39:49
like say, "You know what? By doing this, we're also gonna just kind
39:53
of make things better for everybody." And we're just lucky because our
39:56
client base, those are things that are very important to them, right?
39:59
In healthcare, and like I said, we, we primarily work with
40:03
providers, so those are hospitals and those types of things.
40:06
They need to make sure that that patient can… That
40:12
they can eliminate all the distractions they can possibly
40:15
eliminate to get a better outcome for that patient, right?
40:17
You don't want them stressed out, and that could be from trying to
40:21
fill out a form to trying to navigate through the hallway, right?
40:25
Because what it comes down to is every little component contributes
40:29
to that person's successful outcome, whatever it happens to be.
40:34
And the same goes for, you know, the work
40:36
that we do with like Rand Central and that.
40:38
It's like, yeah, we have to aesthetically make sure that it's gonna work
40:42
the way it needs to work, but we also, when it comes down to it, we have
40:44
to like make sure that people can navigate through spaces and, and elu-
40:51
you know, eliminate anything that's gonna get in the way of doing that.
40:54
I, I think, I think it's wise to come at it from, um, a perspective of, hey,
40:59
we're baking this into what we do, um, so that it also helps everyone else, I
41:05
think, you know, um, versus, versus just thinking about what's the coolest way
41:09
we can do this and, you know, making it look as neat as possible, but without
41:14
having put that through the filter of how does this help everybody else?
41:19
They're not mutually exclusive, right?
41:21
I mean, I mean, they're not.
41:22
And I think, you know, that's our core mission is to like let people know that.
41:25
Like, like they can… It can be both.
41:28
And that's the job of a commercial designer, right?
41:30
Like, like that's our job.
41:32
Our job as commercial designers is to be able to meet the criteria
41:36
of what the client needs or what the audience that we're trying
41:39
to reach needs, or the people that we're trying to reach, right?
41:42
Like, like That's, that's what commercial design's all about.
41:47
Yeah.
41:47
That's, that's awesome.
41:48
So thinking towards the future, what's top of mind
41:51
for you in the industry right now as it evolves?
41:54
Besides just making sure what's being produced is the best possible
42:00
thing that can be produced for w- for, for what needs to happen, right?
42:03
So, like, besides just having, like, high standards in design
42:08
and high standards in people being able to use it, you know, the
42:11
obvious things like, like how do we integrate AI into our tool set?
42:18
Where does it fit in our business?
42:20
How do we use it?
42:21
You know, we're huge proponents of AI, we have been for a
42:24
long time, but we're big proponents of it as a tool, right?
42:27
Not as just a, a rip-o-matic kind of thing.
42:31
And making sure that our people are up to speed on how those things work.
42:37
Like, like, those are super critical to us right now.
42:39
And I would say the other thing that, that we're really keen on
42:44
is making sure that we retain a multi-generational workforce.
42:50
Um, because what we've noticed is you get a huge amount of knowledge
42:56
from every group of people who are available to work, right?
43:00
So, like, whether it be somebody straight out of college or somebody
43:03
who's potentially retired who's coming back into the workforce
43:07
because, you know, they're bored and can't believe they're retired.
43:10
So, like we w- you know, one of the, our big things right
43:13
now is, like, how do we not lose the knowledge that preceded
43:16
us, and how do we develop the talent that's just entering in?
43:20
And I think more than ever, it's critical because of AI, right?
43:25
Because AI has, in a lot of ways, eliminated
43:29
what a lot of the junior people would do.
43:32
What we need to do is make sure that they're still learning kind of the
43:35
core tenets of what needs to happen to be able to use these new tools.
43:40
And in my opinion, the only way to do that is to make sure that you
43:42
have people across varying, you know, experience levels and generations
43:48
to kind of help- define what's an entry-level job gonna look like.
43:53
So those are the types of things that, that we're thinking about.
43:57
An entry-level job with three years of
43:59
experience and, you know, a master's degree.
44:02
I'm just kidding.
44:02
But that's, that, that's what I, I remember go- coming out of college, that
44:05
was always the challenge that I had was, um, people would… You'd apply for
44:09
a job and they'd be like, "Must have at least this many years experience."
44:12
Like entry-level and learning, learning a trade, learning to get into
44:16
some of these industries, um, you know, sometimes that pathway doesn't
44:19
exist for a lot of people, or they don't know how to make that work.
44:22
Part of what I like about We Built This Brand and what we're doing
44:25
here is, um, you know, you shared even at the beginning, like you
44:28
started out in textiles and moved into what you're doing today.
44:33
And, you know, I think that, um, a lot of people need to
44:36
hear that, especially the younger generation and stuff.
44:39
And intergenerationally, I think that, um, that's, that's great as well.
44:43
I mean, um, I really like that approach because, you know, we're seeing in
44:48
the tech world right now, we have some clients that do podcasts in tech,
44:51
um, so we hear them talk about what's happening in the industry a lot.
44:55
And the one thing we hear is a lot of the middle management and the, um,
44:59
the middle, the middlemen, the people kind of that are, um, you know, just
45:03
becoming senior engineers and things like that are getting fired for AI.
45:07
And then what happens is you have outages like Amazon had, I think earlier
45:11
this year or late last year, and Amazon ended up having to ultimately admit,
45:15
"Yeah, we didn't have the experienced staff on hand to handle that issue.
45:19
We had a bunch of newbies that we hired cheap, and we had a bunch
45:22
of… And we have very few at the top or in the middle that could
45:24
have caught that." And I think that, um, it's important not to lose
45:28
sight of that inside of technology devol- evolving and all that, so.
45:31
I mean, a lot of what we do is it's like It's the experience and the
45:36
know-how of how, how you get these things to come to life, right?
45:39
It's like… A- and this is the applied side of it, right?
45:42
So this is my, obviously my stump, right?
45:45
But you can develop a corporate strate- a brand strategy, you can develop
45:50
a, you know, a visual identity and everything that goes along with it, but
45:54
you have to have knowledge of how to apply it, and you have to have, like…
45:58
It's, it's, it's like you, you know, there's things that, that people that
46:01
came ahead of me saw that, like, I don't wanna get blindsided by, right?
46:06
Because, like, like, it still exists.
46:08
Like, like, that experience is, like, so valuable, and I think, like,
46:12
what's happening is, is that, you know, we're, we're mistakingly… We…
46:16
Look, we're huge proponents of AI, so, like, I am… And, and
46:20
we use AI, and I have AI training for everybody, and we've spent
46:25
a lot of money on, you know, outside consultants to come in and
46:28
help our people, you know, develop agents and all that stuff.
46:32
But the reason why we do that is to get rid of the repetitive tasks, not to…
46:37
So that we can use the knowledge, right?
46:40
Like, like, what we're trying to do is we're trying to unlock
46:42
the experience that people have and trying to eliminate all of
46:46
the distractions that allows that person to use that specialized
46:50
knowledge that they have or that broad knowledge of brand
46:53
building to, to, to be able to, like, spend time on that, right?
46:57
That's the goal of it.
46:59
And then, so it's like we need to make sure that that
47:03
transfer's happening because if we don't, then we're
47:07
just kind of losing things that, that we know to be true.
47:11
And, and, and I think that that's a little bit shortsighted.
47:14
It's like these things have to exist together, right?
47:17
Like, it's no different than when Photoshop first
47:20
came on the scene in 1995 or whenever it was, right?
47:24
It's like, you know, it's, it's a new tool.
47:27
We've gotta figure out how to do it.
47:28
It's gonna rapidly help us to production But along the
47:34
way, there's gonna be schlock, and we know that, and we
47:37
have to figure out a way to engineer out the schlock.
47:40
That's a good way to put it.
47:41
I like it.
47:41
Well, that's, that's great, and I, I definitely think
47:43
that's, um, like I said, I think it's a good approach.
47:46
Tell me, um, as we wrap up, I always like to ask this question at
47:49
the end, um, which is, you know, what is the brand you most admire?
47:54
I mean, we're talking about the Braille Institute and some of that.
47:57
Um, but, like, is there a brand that in your personal life or, you
48:01
know, as you've looked over the years that you would say, "This is a
48:03
brand I really aspire to be like," or, um, a brand that I just admire?
48:08
I knew you were gonna ask that question.
48:09
It, it is, it is honestly kind of the hardest question to answer.
48:12
So, and the reason why is it's like, it's like in the context of what, right?
48:16
Like, so it's, it… And, and depending on the day and the time.
48:20
You know, have you ever heard the h- have you ever heard
48:22
the, the joke, it's like, "What's your favorite beer?"
48:25
The one in my hand, right?
48:26
The one in my hand.
48:27
Which one do I like?
48:28
The one in my hand.
48:30
So-
48:30
It's been my mantra for years, but anyways, continue
48:33
You know, I, I, I mean, I mean, I mean, that's, that's that question.
48:36
I, I think Look, I'll, I'll give, I'll give a shout-out to my clients.
48:41
Like, I love my clients' brands, and I love the
48:44
courage that they have in what they do, okay?
48:48
And, and I'm very proud to be a small part of what they do.
48:51
Because I think the brand is about, like,
48:53
the company and the overall mission, right?
48:55
It's, it's like one component of that is, is the branding.
48:58
I mean, when it comes down to it, you have to have an amazing,
49:01
sustainable business and company and group of people to make things
49:05
happen, and it just so happens I get to help articulate it, you know?
49:09
That, that's what the branding component does.
49:12
With that said, you know, I look at things that, like,
49:15
make me go, "Man, I w- I wish I was on that team," right?
49:18
And, you know, it's, it's like… And, and so when I start to
49:23
look at brands and I evaluate them, the ones that, like, stand
49:25
out to me are kind of like, they go across categories, right?
49:29
Like, I think this is gonna sound like a really silly one,
49:33
but I'm absolutely enamored with the ThinkPad brand, okay?
49:39
And I'll tell you why.
49:41
They've unapologetically been ThinkPad for th- 20 to 30 years, and
49:45
they're still as relevant today as the day they first launched, right?
49:50
And what really cracks me up is they still have the red nub on the keyboard.
49:56
The, the one thing that, like, everybody was like, "This is the dumbest
49:59
thing in the world," they still have it on there, and people still like it.
50:03
And I think it goes to their culture of kind of perseverance, right?
50:07
They spun out of IBM.
50:09
They lost IBM.
50:10
They became Lenovo.
50:11
But they somehow kinda didn't lose their course.
50:13
They may have steered a little bit off, but I, I really
50:16
find it, like, fascinating that they've been kind
50:18
of, been able to maintain kind of their core, right?
50:22
In a world that's, like, enamored with Apple, right?
50:25
It's like, it's kinda like the perfect antithesis of, of what Apple does.
50:30
So like, is it my favorite brand?
50:32
I don't know.
50:32
But I think it's pretty cool.
50:34
I think it's fun.
50:35
I, I, I, like, I look at it and I say, "They know who they are
50:38
and they got guts," which is pretty, pretty amazing, right?
50:42
So it's pretty wild.
50:44
But I'm also a big skier and, and, um, and I ski
50:49
on the East Coast, which is a gnarly place to ski
50:54
Bless you.
50:55
Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's fun, but it's rough.
50:58
At least you're in the Northeast.
51:00
You're not in the South like I am.
51:01
That's true.
51:01
That's true.
51:02
At least I'm … Yeah, I get to go into New England to go skiing.
51:05
But there's this, like, amazing brand called J Skis that
51:09
has just been blowing me away, and it's been blowing me away
51:13
because they just m- they just seem to be on top of everything.
51:16
Like, you just, you just look at what they're
51:18
doing from, like, an e-commerce perspective.
51:21
I mean, they're a direct-to-consumer brand.
51:23
You look at what they're doing from an e-commerce perspective.
51:25
You look at the way that they've defined their brand.
51:27
You look at the way that they're running their operations.
51:32
They're based in Vermont.
51:33
They're based in Burlington.
51:35
Like, you just … It's, it's like any corporate brand
51:39
should look at that and say, "Wow, that's, you know, that's
51:42
how you do it." Is it 100%, like, what I would want to be?
51:45
No.
51:45
But I'm just really kind of blown away by the fact
51:48
that they, that they're so dialed in and so small.
51:53
It's always great when you have a small brand like that that can provide that
51:56
boutique experience to the people that really love and admire what they do.
52:00
I do fly fishing, so very familiar with, like, the need to
52:04
support small businesses, local businesses, and then some of
52:07
the brands that surround that industry are very user-centric.
52:12
And I always love a good brand like that, so.
52:14
Well, it's funny, 'cause I was gonna mention The Drake.
52:16
So I don't know if you're familiar with The Drake or not, but-
52:19
No.
52:20
Tell me more
52:20
… so look it up.
52:21
It's, um, they're, it's a magazine.
52:23
It's a fly fishing magazine and kind of an outdoor adventure travel magazine.
52:29
It's pretty cool.
52:30
Drake Fly.
52:31
Okay.
52:32
Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely gonna check that out.
52:34
That's awesome.
52:35
So you do fly fishing too?
52:36
I dapple.
52:38
I would not call myself a fly fisherman.
52:40
My business partner is.
52:42
I am not.
52:43
I go out in the river and slip on rocks and Catch trees, so
52:49
Understand.
52:50
Better to catch them in the streams than skiing, though.
52:53
That's true.
52:53
That's true.
52:54
Although, that's what I love about J skis.
52:56
It's about skiing in the trees, right?
52:58
Like, it's, uh… Yeah, that- that's what we do.
53:01
We, we like to, we like to ski in the trees.
53:04
Well, very cool.
53:05
Well, Brad, thank you so much for coming on today.
53:07
Where can people find more about you?
53:10
Where can they find more about Apply Design, and even
53:13
the Atkinson Hyperlegible and Hyperlegible Next fonts?
53:17
Oh, absolutely.
53:18
So you can visit our website.
53:20
It's helloapply.com, so www.helloapply.com.
53:25
For Atkinson Hyperlegible, you can go to the Braille Institute
53:28
s- site, and there's a option to select free font, and
53:33
it will, and it will take you to be able to download it.
53:36
Or you can go to Google Fonts and download it from Google Fonts.
53:40
So the benefit of going to Google Fonts is that you can embed it in your
53:43
website and it'll be served, um, natively through the Google infrastructure.
53:49
Awesome.
53:49
Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
53:51
Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris.
53:52
This was great.
53:53
Absolutely.
53:54
I enjoyed it.
53:55
Yep.
53:55
I did too.
53:56
Thank you.
53:58
Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.
54:01
Don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe on your player of choice.
54:05
You can also keep up with the podcast on our website at webuiltthisbrand.com.
54:10
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54:14
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