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Why Cookie-Cutter Workflows Fail Law Firms & AI Marketing Strategies with Russell Matson · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got to show the promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, I'm talking about why bespoke workflows are really the only workflows that work for law firms. In the interview, we've got Russell Matson, a criminal defense marketing and local SEO consultant. In the counter program, it's the Norm McDonald hour. Now let's talk about what's really stopping you from launching effective workflows in your law firm. In the 1956 epic film, The 10 Commandments, which I watched every Easter, the Egyptian Pharaoh, Rameses II, is played by Yul Brenner as a go-to line. "So let it be written. So let it be done," he says. As Pharaoh, whatever he says is law. In your law firm, this needs to be how you approach your workflows. (01:09): You build them, they are applied and you brook no opposition. Now you don't have to go so far as to ask your employees to make bricks without straw. However, where Rameses had scribes under his purview to draft his words into existence, you have an array of AI tools, plus bonus. You don't have to deal with any plagues either. But the real challenge for Rameses was building laws out of whole cloth, relying solely on his experience and expertise. As the managing partner of a law firm, you have the same problem, though you were equally equipped to deal with it. Most lawyers understand that as their firms grow, workflows or standard operating procedures, SOPs become essential to growth because they're the only viable method to delegate effectively to attorneys and staff. But even in a solo environment, workflows can help with consistency. You can work faster yourself if you understand the full breadth of what you need to do. (02:10): And how it also provides a better experience for your clients who are each treated the same. But if you're not thoughtful about how you build your SOPs, they just won't work for you. Now here's the rub. Attorneys are busy. They want to focus only on revenue producing work. They don't view workflow generation and maintenance as revenue producing work. Thus, they don't take time to build them. Consequently, they never get done. Only that's all wrong. Workflows do save time, which increases work capacity. That makes you more money regardless of whether you bill by the hour or by the project. This is, friends, a service industry. So it does make sense to put work into your workflows. That means not taking shortcuts. And that means not trying to overlay rope processes onto your existing law firm because your law firm is different than every other law firm, even if you have a practice niche. (03:06): Every estate planning law firm is not created equal. And that's true even if you have acquired a deep niche like special needs trusts. So it is that once you overcome the first objection, workflows are actually necessary. You must advance past the next obstacle, the shortcut of simply adopting cookie cutter processes that you find in books, online or via generic AI drafting without applying enough specificity. This is the thing that stops law firms from generating effective workflows. And this is where you need to find your inner ramsies. You must generate the bespoke laws for your own kingdom. While it is okay to have a starting point, you can't skip the process of being thoughtful about every stop on the workflow build. That counts for your intake process. How do your clients find you? What sort of follow-up tolerance do they have and via what media? That's probably most essential for your substantive workflows, however, which will decidedly be your most robust. (04:06): Here though, you've got the innate knowledge of how the different types of cases are handled in your firm. You intimately understand the specific tickler system that will generate the best work product from your team. You know when and how to follow up with your clients to get what you need from them. Ultimately, nobody knows that better than you. And as the owner of the law firm, you have to be the one who drafts or reviews and finalizes any process that runs through your business, the same as you would need to approve any substantive workflow that's delivered to clients or the court. Now, the last step is that you need to be able to access the progress for workflows for each client and lead in your law firm. That means you have to convert your finalized processes into the appropriate software tools. Always draft first because implementing inside of your tech is much harder to revise than a document would be. (05:01): Once you pick the right tools for the right workflows, CRM for intake, LPM or project management software for client management, accounting for finances, et cetera, automate everything you can and leave manual tracks for the rest. Reporting tools and dashboards and your softwares will allow you to quickly access whether the firm is operating at peak efficiency or where you need to pull some strings. Put the work in, reap the rewards. To quote the Eagles, you can go the distance. We'll find out in the long run. Ramseys II would love that shit. (05:38): I honestly don't know how to segue from here. I'm not seeing a through line from the late Pharaoh Ramseys to the late Glen Fry, but I can promise you this, my conversation with Russell Matson is coming up next and it's going to get even weirder. Hide your sacred cats from Neck Bet. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I'm silently going to think about how I would design the perfect charcuterie board. Ah, fuck it. Not sure that's my calling. Let's just introduce our guest instead before I start slicing the finest meats and cheeses. Our guest today is Russell Matson, who's a marketing consultant for criminal defense law firms. Russell, welcome to the show. How are you? Russell Matson (06:29): Thank you, Jared. Jared Correia (06:31): I don't think we've talked in a number of years. Is that correct? I think Russell Matson (06:34): It was before the pandemic at Jared Correia (06:36): Suffolk Russell Matson (06:36): Law School. So yes, that would be a number of years. I Jared Correia (06:40): Agree. Was it an event or what was going Russell Matson (06:43): On? It was like a festivist thing Jared Correia (06:45): Where Russell Matson (06:45): There were four of us. Yes. Jared Correia (06:48): Yes. We did a Festivus podcast, I think. That was glorious. Russell Matson (06:51): Yes. Yes. It was a fun event and it involved complaining and it being recorded and amplified. So really right Jared Correia (07:00): Up my alley. Is there anything better than that? No. Really? Unfortunately, it's not festival season right now. So I have to tell you, when I was a kid, my across the street neighbor was named Russell. Can I tell you a little about Russell? He was a real douchebag. Russell Matson (07:14): I'm all ears. Jared Correia (07:16): Whispy Mustache. Whispy Mustache, Kentucky Waterfall, Mesh baseball caps, just a real piece of shit. He had a black 1980 Pontiac Firebird. Remember those? That's real with the bird on the hood. He's always tinkering with the car. Wait, Russell Matson (07:33): Flames on the Hood? Oh, those were the guys in high school that used to beat me up. Sure. Jared Correia (07:40): He was such a dick. My dad fucking hated this guy. His nickname for him was Russell the Love Muscle, which is like an elite parent nickname if you play it the right way. Russell Matson (07:49): I was called that as well, not in a complimentary fashion. Jared Correia (07:56): No, I don't think this is complimentary either, but play it correctly. It might be complimentary. Russell Matson (08:02): Depends. There was that when I was younger. There was the sense that if you wanted to portray Russell Love Muscle, if it worked one out of a hundred times, it was an effective strategy. But it really depended on your goals. Jared Correia (08:18): We're off to roaring start, I have to say. So those are the only two Russells I know, him and you. And I don't know what happened to that Russell. Russell Matson (08:26): Yeah. When I was growing up there was a. Well, Russell Crow was when I was older, but when I was growing up, it was Bill Russell. People - Jared Correia (08:34): Well, so I'm going for first names. Bill Russell, I have a better association with. Russell Crowe, I don't know, unfortunately. I'll work on that. Yeah. So we haven't talked in a while, but prior to podcasting for Festivus, I remember talking with you a little bit about your business. Yo had a whole bunch of stuff going on. You had a law firm, you're doing marketing consultant. You've always been really busy. And if I remember correctly, maybe you had a company that you sold at some point. I could be wrong on any of this. But let's start at the beginning. What are you doing right now at this moment? Russell Matson (09:08): So right now at this moment, I'm on a podcast with Jared on a legal Jared Correia (09:14): Late - Aside from that. Russell Matson (09:16): Yeah. Well, I'm very grounded. Yeah. So my Jared Correia (09:19): Focus - Look at Russell Matson (09:19): You. My focus - Jared Correia (09:21): Living in the moment. Russell Matson (09:22): Yes. Yes. Yeah. My focus is criminal defense marketing specifically in New England because I just like driving around New England. And at one point I Jared Correia (09:33): Had - Russell Matson (09:33): Really? Yes. Yeah. It's just my idea of fun. (09:37): And I've been to every district court in Massachusetts when I was practicing. And I had professional relationships with some other criminal defense attorneys across New England. And I have a daughter and a brother that I like to drive around New England. So I have been messing around a lot with AI and I understand the New England criminal defense market. So it's just kind of a. Could I do consulting work for criminal defense attorneys in places I haven't physically been to? Yes. But I wouldn't have quite the same competitive advantage if I haven't walked into the courtroom and drank coffee there. Jared Correia (10:13): What an interesting niche. It's an even deeper niche than I thought because you're just doing New England. Yes. Russell Matson (10:20): Although my next ebook, and I'm going to say this, I'm not making this up because many things made me both think I say sound utterly absurd. It's an ebook. It's about comparing the criminal defense markets of Maine, Maryland, and Michigan aimed at criminal defense attorneys who like exotic meat and coffee. Jared Correia (10:41): Okay. So let's rewind for a second. Russell Matson (10:44): Yeah. Jared Correia (10:45): You like driving around New England. Me too. There's a lot of cool places to go in New England, especially in the summer. Are there any underutilized areas of New England that you think people should discover if they're not aware of them right now? Russell Matson (11:00): I mean, I love Western Mass and I love the Yankee Candle Factory. So that's good for kids. There's a place in Arnold, Mass called Arnold's Meats. We can get frog legs, you can get all sorts of exotic meats. Jared Correia (11:16): Really? Russell Matson (11:17): Yes. And because my daughter is 10, I've taken her to many sciencey center museums. So we've been to the Sea Science Center a lot in Manchester. We were recently at a dinosaur theme park, not too far from London, Connecticut. I mean, it just depends on your thing. But because I can't prove this, but I suspect I've been to more district courts than any other criminal defense attorney in the state because I've been to all of them and then I've been to a bunch that don't exist anymore. Jared Correia (11:50): I don't know that you could go to more. Russell Matson (11:52): Yes. Jared Correia (11:53): You bet all of them, literally. Yes. Russell Matson (11:55): Yes. And it's kind of like, I think it might be Barry Bonds that hit homers and more ballparks. If you've hit a homer in a ballpark and then they don't play there anymore, yes. Jared Correia (12:04): Right. Still counts. Yes. That's fascinating. So what a great time to be traveling with your daughter at 10 years old.That's right before they start to hate you. A great road trip. Yeah. My daughter's 11. She's a great road trip partner. Will still talk to me. So let's talk about the exotic meats and cheeses. What's that all about? Russell Matson (12:25): Well, so I didn't realize this podcast was mostly going to be with my daughter, but at first people have called Jared Correia (12:33): Me - It is now. Russell Matson (12:34): Yeah. People called me a picky eater when I was growing up, which felt insulting, but also was completely and utterly fair and accurate. And my daughter, at first, she would only want me to take her to McDonald's and nothing. Jared Correia (12:48): Chicken nuggets. Russell Matson (12:50): Exactly. And then when I would take her to Wendy's, oh my God, the meltdown, she would have never taken to Wendy's. It's Jared Correia (12:56): Not the right kind of nugget. Russell Matson (12:58): Yeah. So I would try to slowly expand it, but then I realized the thing was due was to go so far out her comfort zone. So in Newport is a place that has exotic jerkies. Jared Correia (13:13): Oh yes. I've driven by there many times. Russell Matson (13:16): Yes. Yeah. I want to say it's on Thorne Street right by the. It's right where all the action is downtown. Jared Correia (13:24): Yes. Yes. Russell Matson (13:26): And so once you're like, "Hey, do you want Wildebeest or Alligator today?" Then suddenly fast food in a box from a different place really doesn't seem that exotic. Jared Correia (13:39): Right. If you're eat Wildebeest. Oh, that's interesting. Kudos to you for getting her to try that. All right. So you also mentioned this new book you've got. What's the name of the book? Russell Matson (13:51): Criminal. That's an excellent question. You would think I would have the precise answer. Yes. Jared Correia (13:57): The book is called Moby Dick. No, go on. Russell Matson (14:00): Yes. Herban Melville and I wrote Moby Dick in I want to say 183 Jared Correia (14:06): Together. Russell Matson (14:07): This is the sequel. It's Criminal Defense Marketing Using AI. Jared Correia (14:12): Okay. You were talking about multiple different states that you were comparing. It seemed like an odd cluster of states. Why did you. Yeah. Russell Matson (14:22): So at first I was going to write a book about Massachusetts and basically it's just Matson Marketing. So I was like, you know what? I'd learn a lot more if I use three states that also begin with M, and I work in exotic meats. Wow. Plus, until you do the research, I'm not saying. I don't spend a lot of time saying nice things about Ted Nugent, right? I can make a record saying that. But once you start to do the research, you realize you can't - You're not alone. You can't talk about meats in Michigan without talking about the fact that Ted Nugent uses a bow. And if you're into punk rock in Michigan, you also have to talk about the band, The Meat Man. So there's all these connections once you tie them together. Jared Correia (15:09): Yeah. Ted Nugent, quite a dick in real life. Russell Matson (15:12): Yes. That all accounts. Jared Correia (15:16): You've got a lot of alliteration working here. So what is the thesis of the book? Are we talking how to market in the modern world? How to use AI for these firms? Combo platter of both? If I was an attorney who wanted to buy a book like that, what would I be learning? Russell Matson (15:32): So I guess this is what it boils down to. Google matters and it's going to matter for a long time, but ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini, et cetera, et cetera, matter more. So do you want to be the person that these LLMs recommend or would you rather it be a competitor? That's up to you. Jared Correia (15:56): Yeah. And when you say Google, I feel like that's a little bit of a loaded question nowadays because I think a lot of people are doing things like using the Google AI overview and not even necessarily realizing it's a different thing from traditional search. Russell Matson (16:11): Yes. Yes. There's that and then there's Gemini. And it's not that it's. Okay, I'm going to go on a diatribe or a diversion. Go ahead. At one point, in the late '90s and early 2000s, it was like the phone book was a thing. And the difference between the phone book and the web was just almost a complete disconnect. I mean, AI is huge and influential, but they're often drawing from the same source material as search engines. So it's not nearly as dramatic. Jared Correia (16:47): True. Yeah. Russell Matson (16:50): And for example, I doubt you have spent a lot of time worrying about how you are going to show up in the LLMs. Jared Correia (16:58): Next to none. Russell Matson (17:00): Yes. But having said that, if you had, you're the guy who's hosted several podcasts and you're a lecturer at a law school, so you have a bunch of obvious credentials. Yeah, Jared Correia (17:14): That's why I'm not worried about it. Russell Matson (17:15): Right. But if you're someone like, I've spent a lot of money websites and it says, I'm an aggressive attorney. We fight for our clients. If you just have a bunch of generic stuff that doesn't stand out, we do good work, et cetera, et cetera, you have a much higher risk of falling through the cracks. Jared Correia (17:36): And especially if you've relied on traditional SEO to get most of your work over the last 10 years. Russell Matson (17:44): Yes. And it might work, you're like, okay, we have. If you have some sort of word sign like we spend money and then we send it to these landing pages and we get clients from that, that may. And you're like, "Here's my prototypical worst firm because why would I be positive? We don't want that." It seems like the prototypical worst firm is like, "We have a bunch of partners that sit around once or twice a month. We never change. We have lots of overhead. We're signed into all of these long-term things." Jared Correia (18:16): Got to have lots of overhead. Russell Matson (18:18): Yes. Yes. So I think in the world of AI, it's good to have a niche. It's good to be flexible. And it's good to be able to have a story that people can recommend. And it's also good to be like, if you have a referral network and you're sort of hooked into a lot of stuff and you don't get a lot of business from the web, that might work too. Jared Correia (18:47): Right. Yeah, yeah. True. I've seen referral networking coming back a little bit for people, which I think is a good thing ultimately. So I think that's how everybody starts marketing, honestly. When you start a business, you don't have the money to go and buy a digital marketing campaign. I think that all makes sense. What are you seeing or what are you recommending that criminal defense attorneys do? Let's start there. So one thing you mentioned was having a story. How do you have a story? Niching down. How do you niche down effectively? Is there such a thing as too deep a niche? What are your thoughts there? Russell Matson (19:25): Okay. So criminal defense compared to other areas of law has its own distinct quirks. So depending on where you are, 85, 90, sometimes 95% of criminal cases are appointed, which is Jared Correia (19:45): Not true. Oh, right. That's a good point. Russell Matson (19:46): Yes. Jared Correia (19:49): And it's not just in Massachusetts. A lot of states are like that. Russell Matson (19:53): Right. I mean, like I said, depending on the state, it's going to be a different percentage. But for sure that is the case. So lots of people, certainly there's some firms that do all criminal, but it's not unusual. There's many attorneys that they do a mix of court appointed and private cases. Jared Correia (20:15): Right. Which you're not seeing with a personal injury law firm or some other type of practice. Russell Matson (20:19): Right. Yes. So that has its own quirks. It's probably affected by AI less than a lot of other areas. Because the other thing is, and I'm confidently speaking about other areas of law since I know nothing about them. They're all just one broad category. Do Jared Correia (20:36): It. Russell Matson (20:37): So the thing about criminal cases is roughly 90% of the time in New England, depending on the state, it's in person. So you're limited by. So I used to have a bunch of lawyers working for me and I used to really break down what I was doing. And (20:57): Of course you'd be like, of course I'm the greatest lawyer in the world. What am I better at than them? Am I better at driving to and from court than my associates? No, no, I'm not. Am I better at sitting there? I guess I could be, but the marginal difference would've been minor. Was I better at sitting there in court waiting to be called than them? I was not. So criminal law has lots of things where it's basically you usually have to be there in person, can go to one, maybe two courts a day, maybe three if you really. So it has these sort of restrictions and it matters how people find you. You can use AI to have people find you. And there is some prep work in criminal law, but less so than. I don't know anything about PI, but I'm guessing you're getting lots of documents and you're pressing it, you're crunching it, and you're contacting people. Jared Correia (21:55): Yeah. Mostly less leg work, I think. Especially if you're a firm that wants to get settlements rather than go to trial. Russell Matson (22:03): Yes. But even that is. And here I am talking about an area of law. I don't even know I am explaining this. I constantly talk about things I don't know about. So my limited understanding is a lot of it. If you're someone - Jared Correia (22:16): It's the American way. Russell Matson (22:17): Exactly. Ready, fire, aim. So if you're a firm that gets a reputation of just getting settlements, the insurance companies will track that and then soon your settlements may not be as good. So there's all sorts of things in other areas of law that you can break down and analyze. But like I said, in criminal law. And the other thing that's more true in criminal law than other areas is clients, it's not always true, but often clients want that individual person. Jared Correia (22:48): Sure. Yeah. There are probably percentage-wise a lot more solo criminal defense lawyers than in other practice areas, I would guess. Russell Matson (22:57): Yes. Yes. I think that is absolutely true. Whether it's the personality of criminal defense. Yeah. The largest criminal defense firm in the country that I know of that only does criminal is 14 lawyers. And it just is. Yeah. So it also pays less than other areas of law. So I've been going on this diatribe and lecture and I've lost the thread of the original question. Jared Correia (23:24): Stories and niche. Yes. How do you decide that as a criminal defense attorney? Russell Matson (23:29): So in general, I think it is better in this age to go hyper-specific, ludicrously specific, and then expand Jared Correia (23:39): On. Russell Matson (23:39): Really? That is my personal. Because at least you can get some sort of leverage or traction in the engines. And if you're the guy that does the thing that people know about, then people can maybe. Oh, okay. If you do that thing, then there's other stuff that's sort of related. And the stories are individual. I have a law school classmate who reached out to me. He was a public defender for a long time. I supervised a bunch of lawyers. I believe him to be very good. Having said that, because he was a public defender for so long, he had no Google reviews. Jared Correia (24:17): Yeah. Russell Matson (24:18): And he was not doing things with an eye to, oh yes, I should be doing this podcast or I should be doing the CLE and recording it. So within the last week also, I've had lunch with two members of MacDill. And by that I mean the Massachusetts Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Which Jared Correia (24:42): Most states have a version of that. Yeah. Russell Matson (24:44): Yes. So if you are like, "Oh, I am involved in the Local Bar Association," that is a story and a credential that may or may not mean something, but sounds like it means something and can't be faked. If you're a member of MacDill, then that is a Jared Correia (24:57): Thing. Yeah. And not everybody does those things, especially now. Russell Matson (25:03): Right. So I don't know what someone's individual thing is, but most people have something that you can sort of highlight. Or if not, then you can probably heavy punch us and be like, "Wait a minute, what are some easy things I could do that can make me stand out?" Jared Correia (25:25): Right. Have you seen really crazy hyper niches for criminal defense work? People think of DUI off the top of their head, but I don't know. Is there a defense lawyer who only represents people who have done machete attacks or whatever? Some crazy Russell Matson (25:42): Shit like that. Well, see, what I used to try to do was get high profile cases and then just have them blow up. I had one case where I had a client charged with impersonating a police officer. He had a sports car. I don't know if you know anything about the Decepticons. Jared Correia (26:03): Do I know anything about the - You're in the right place, my friend. Russell Matson (26:07): Yeah. I guess the Decepticon is a transformer that's like a bad cop or something. Jared Correia (26:13): The Decepticons are the evil bots in the transfer. The auto bots are the good bots. Don't get me started. Just keep going. Russell Matson (26:21): All right. But I guess the point is if there really aren't that many different crimes that have. There's clerk magistrate hearings, which is kind of its own thing. But yeah, there's domestic violence, there's sex offenses, there's DUIs, there's driving offenses. If Jared Correia (26:40): You could break it down by offense type potentially and start with one. Russell Matson (26:45): Yeah. So one thing I used to do was because I used to rank for. It was either four or five years in a row in Google, I would rank number one for Massachusetts lawyer, which is completely ludicrous that I would be number one in Mass Lawyers Weekly Jared Correia (27:00): Would Russell Matson (27:00): Be number Jared Correia (27:01): Five. Generic Massachusetts lawyers, not even like Massachusetts criminal defense lawyers? Wow. Russell Matson (27:05): Massachusetts lawyers Jared Correia (27:06): Because - You did the thing. You got to number one on Google. Congratulations. Russell Matson (27:10): Yes, I did lots of things. I ranked well for two. I mean, I ranked well for a lot of stuff, but two specific niches I found. Leaving the scene of the accident was helpful because those were basically. Once you got them down, they were very simple. You'd say, "Oh, my client is very sorry." They paid the person and mostly the case would go away. And the other oddball niche I would get was old warrants because I would rank for that. Yeah. And it was this sort of thing where it was funny because you sort of knew exactly how it played. You'd get a call from someone. They're like, "I'm in Arkansas and in 1990 something I had a shoplifting case, whatever. I left town, took off for 20 years, whatever. (27:58): So I tried to renew my license today." Well, guess what? And then there'd be this whole thing where they're like, "Why?" Sorry I called you about that. And I'm like, "It's a bureaucracy. I can't tell you." But basically the vast majority of the time. So it could go two ways. Most of the time, old case, no one cares. Occasionally you get a judge or a prosecutor that's like, "This ridiculous case that no one cares about anymore. They're a scoff law. We need to punish them." So back to your original question, I feel like if you get traction in the engines for some sort of niche, then that is much easier than just. You can only work with what you have. There's two things you see a lot. I'm not saying they're bad, but I used to be a prosecutor. You should hire me because I know the system. (28:53): It's a story. There's lots of other people in the story, but at least it's a story. And then the flip side is like, I've been a defense attorney all my life. You don't want someone that used to be a trader. But like I said, chances are people have something. And if they don't, they can figure out a way to work towards something to sell. Jared Correia (29:14): So let's put a different spin on this. If you were starting a criminal defense firm from scratch right now, clearly you want to develop your story. You want to think about what your niche is and then potentially mushroom from there and add additional niches. What else would you do? Would you focus on Google reviews? Would you put a lot of money into a website? You got carte blanche, you're just starting a criminal defense firm for the first time in 2026. Russell Matson (29:42): Okay. So the short answer is we have five or six different LLs. We don't know the rules, but the real answer is Google reviews, chances are Google reviews will be very good for a long period of time. And they're kind of hard to fake. And there's something that anyone can start with Google reviews. I Right. And here's the thing, you can have a message and get some clients and amplify it, but if the message is this person sucks, maybe not going to work out so well for you. So you could get on the court appointed list, have some court appointed clients be super happy with you and those that you know are super happy with you at the end you can be like, by the way, here's a link to my thing. Can you please review me? That's probably a way that anyone could start. (30:29): And anyone can join the local Bar Association and/or be active in the Bar Advocates program and put on a CLE. One thing I found - Jared Correia (30:42): Yeah, they're dying for people to put on presentations. Russell Matson (30:45): Yes. Just Jared Correia (30:45): Put yourself out there. Russell Matson (30:46): Yes. And I used to do improv. I was in a bump in. I would do all these things. And after a while you realize it helps to get to a point where you think it's funny when you bomb and you don't care about what happens in the room. Maybe I wouldn't recommend that as your first strategy. And you can build credentials where it doesn't matter if you presented to a room full of three people that were indifferent that were on the phones. You can correctly put in your website that I did the thing and here's the thing and here's the transcript. And what I find is very often I would just be able to reuse things. One thing I used to do all the time was I would go to the scene of the crime with that client. They never bring a camcorder. And then, and this was like in 2005, no one did that. (31:37): So you have this recording. Jared Correia (31:39): No one's whipping out a camcorder right now. We all got phones. Russell Matson (31:43): Yes. Yes. But just you record what you do and then you use it to prep the case and you take pieces of that. And that can also be web content. So just - Jared Correia (31:59): True. Russell Matson (32:00): So just virtually anything you do, it can be part of your SOP, can be recorded and broken down. And before you came on the scene and your extremely talented, brilliant engineer popped up, like I was - Evan. Yes. Evan saw me ranting about something. I'm in front of my computer. I had my foot pedal on. So it's all the time. It's just my reflex. I hit my foot pedal. I'm recording a lot of blobbity blah. Jared Correia (32:34): And Russell Matson (32:35): Then my claude or codex or whatever I'm talking into will take my nonsense and attribute some sort of meaning to it. And then it will be useful. So on your phone - Jared Correia (32:47): Thank God Russell Matson (32:47): For AI. Yes, thank God for AI. You just Jared Correia (32:50): Bullshitting the AI and something else comes out on the other side. Russell Matson (32:54): There's actually a lot to be said for that. And I make a lot of AI songs for my daughter and it's just a matter of finding a hook and finding a couple. Oh Jared Correia (33:05): My God. Yes. Yeah. I'm sure you're familiar with Dare I Ruined It, which is the greatest AI song smithing I've seen. Have you seen that? Russell Matson (33:17): I Jared Correia (33:17): Get checked out. You Russell Matson (33:18): Once again thought more highly of me than. Jared Correia (33:22): For you and everyone else, go to the YouTube channel, Dare I Ruined It. It's just like song mashups using AI. So it's like 50 Cent doing a Conway Twitty song, stuff like that. Nice. Great, great stuff. Okay. I got two more things I wanted to ask you about. We talked a little bit about marketing for criminal defense attorneys. So if you were launching a practice again, how would you be using AI? Would you dive head first? Would you use it for everything? Would you even get traditional software? Would you just use anthropic tools? What would you do? Russell Matson (33:59): Yes, yes, no, and yes. Jared Correia (34:02): Okay. I can't even keep track of the four questions I asked, but anyway, Russell Matson (34:06): Go on. It's Jared Correia (34:07): Bound. Russell Matson (34:10): So here's what I do. And I am of course insane. So you don't want to copy every step. That's Jared Correia (34:15): Why you're Russell Matson (34:15): Here. Yes. I think of Claude as sort of being the top of my stack. So I have Claude for about 20 bucks a month. I use mostly Sonnet. I use some Fabill. And I think Jared Correia (34:33): About - You're talking about basically the different models you can run in the system. Russell Matson (34:38): Yes. And I use ChatGPT/Codex, again, 20 bucks a month. My foot pedals cost like 16 bucks each. So I can just press the button and rant and say all sorts of stuff. And I have my agents researching all sorts of things. And I also, Grok is like 10 bucks a month. So I personally would be reluctant to. At first, I would spend as little money as I would just try to use AI. Now you probably want some sort of CRM for sure. And it would be pretty hard to say, "I started a firm, I used Clio and it ruined my life and it was the worst decision of my life." That's probably not a story you hear very often. Jared Correia (35:31): Wait, are you being serious right now? Russell Matson (35:32): Is Jared Correia (35:33): That Russell Matson (35:33): True? It works. It can't be that big of a mistake to use Clio. So there are some basic thing - Jared Correia (35:39): There goes the Clio sponsorship. Go on. Russell Matson (35:42): No, no, no. I'm saying you can probably want a case management system that has some sort of CRM and that probably worked. But in general, for me, I would rather have the AI and just track and hold everything as cheaply as possible. But many human beings operate very differently and I'm probably just fine with, okay, I'll just have one of these and not go too deep. Jared Correia (36:13): I kind of feel the same way. If I was starting to practice tomorrow, I would go all in on AI tools. I didn't even know that I'd have a ton of legal tech software that I'm using as we destroy the whole premise of this entire podcast. Anyway, last thing I wanted to ask you is you were a lawyer and almost every lawyer I talk to is like, or are a lawyer. Every lawyer I talk to is like, "I don't like really being a lawyer. I want to do some other shit. I want to write books. I want to go teach. I want to start a marketing company." But most of them never do that. You did all that shit. How has it been? Russell Matson (36:57): I'm very glad at the way every single event played itself out. Because what's interesting is, and also even sort of early on, I realized I didn't necessarily want to be more famous or prominent as a criminal lawyer because I was like, "Oh, so then the more famous, the busier I get, the more weekend phone calls I have, how do I get off this treadmill?" (37:20): And having a business, Get Lawyer Leads, where we did websites for criminal defense attorneys across the country. And I was like, "Oh, so I can work my ass off for a while and then all these checks just show up and I don't do anything. Cool. That sounds better." So I was always sort of doing that. And the other thing was in growing my businesses and practice, we would go to conventions in Las Vegas all the time. So there'd be a marketing convention or a drunk driving convention or something in there. And in Vegas, and I did this with my brother, we would play poker. And I want to say in like 25 trips to Vegas, I won money playing poker every single time. So it was like this weird loop of, oh. So I could make money from the law practice. I could make money for the marketing business. (38:06): I could make money playing poker. After a while, I was like, there's other lives out there. And then you have a business, you're like, okay, I'm going to buy an office condo. So I'm not just paying rent. I'm putting equity into this thing. And after a while, you're like, "Oh, I'm not a criminal defense lawyer. I'm an entrepreneur." (38:30): So that was helpful. And I did some teaching. Yeah. And the other thing was, as I started to think about getting out of it, it was a process. Part of it was the percentage of happy criminal defense attorneys north of 50 that wanted to continue doing it, very, very low. Jared Correia (38:54): Pretty much zero. Russell Matson (38:58): When I was in the process of getting out, I would tell people about it. I cannot tell you how many of them were like, Jared Correia (39:03): "I Russell Matson (39:04): Am so envious of you." And it just seemed to me - I'm sure you Jared Correia (39:08): Get that a lot. Russell Matson (39:09): Yes. Yes. And even after a while, I was like, "Oh yeah, it's more fun." After a while, I was like, "Yeah, I look forward to the days that I'm not in court." I was like, "So I'm sitting here drinking coffee, looking at some numbers. Would I rather be doing this or taking a $10,000 fee, being in front of a jury and getting the paper?" I'd be like, "No, I'm good." Jared Correia (39:43): I mean, you made the lifestyle choice, which is cool. And now you're traveling around New England eating elk and shit with your daughter. So Russell Matson (39:49): Pretty good. Yeah. And I really do. Not Efrain can be or is in the position as me, but I also am just absurdly frugal. So I just am like, you know Jared Correia (40:04): What? Clearly. Yeah. All the stuff you've done. Super interesting. Thanks for going through all that. I appreciate it. Exploring your many lives with us. Can we take a break and will you come back for a final segment? Russell Matson (40:19): We can absolutely take a break. And right now I'm claiming that I'll be back for the final segment. Jared Correia (40:24): Okay, great. Welcome back everybody. It's The Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater death with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Russell, for those on video, they can see. For the audio audience, I will describe that you're currently wearing a helmet. What's happening? Russell Matson (40:57): Well, Jared, during the first part of the presentation, Jared appeared pleasant, but in fact, he was deeply confrontational and traumatized me. So I felt the need to wear some protection. Jared Correia (41:15): I am an asshole. It's true. Russell Matson (41:18): This is my truth and I will not have knocked. Jared Correia (41:21): Now, you also have some balls to juggle. Russell Matson (41:26): Yeah. Jared Correia (41:27): Would you like to juggle now just to drill the world or should we hold off on that? Russell Matson (41:33): Listen, it's your show. If the Jared Correia (41:35): Format Russell Matson (41:36): Is juggled at the beginning, then that's fine. Jared Correia (41:39): The format is like. Russell Matson (41:40): Yeah. Of all the guests you have that juggle, right? It's also an issue with - Jared Correia (41:45): Oh, look at that. One-handed. Amazing. Russell Matson (41:47): Yeah. Well, it's a different. And the thing is, you probably want a lecture on juggling. Jared Correia (41:59): No. We'll get into the actual segment, which I have planned out. But I want to learn more about. I'm impressed. I can't juggle. I thought that was pretty good. You want to do a little juggling segment and then we'll get into it? Russell Matson (42:14): Well, it's just something that I. See, what I learned was I joined the UMass Juggling Club. I was in it for like six weeks when I was not. So I love Jared Correia (42:25): The Russell Matson (42:25): Future. Jared Correia (42:26): There's a University of Massachusetts Juggling Club. Is this correct? Russell Matson (42:28): There was. There was one in 1988. I can't swear that there's one now, right? Jared Correia (42:35): The 80s. What a time. Russell Matson (42:37): Yeah. And it was useful when I was in a punk band. We couldn't. So here's the way that worked. First, I formed a band, right? Jared Correia (42:49): Yeah. Russell Matson (42:49): And then I bought a guitar because I had never played guitar before. And then eight months later, Jared Correia (42:56): We got - Had you played any other instruments? Russell Matson (42:58): No, no. None of that. Jared Correia (43:00): Fucking start a band. Why not? Russell Matson (43:02): Yeah. For our first show, we had a documentary of our band starting with that first show. So we would do things in the wrong order. And if you can't play. And this has happened a lot in my life. Jared Correia (43:21): It was a punk band. You just scream into the microphone. Is that the deal? Russell Matson (43:24): It was a punk band. We had songs that got played in the radio. I mean, we could play to some extent, but what I realized was if you can juggle and eat fire while playing. I'm not - It's good life advice. Best juggling club. Let me tell you, I wasn't good at it. I was in the bottom 10% of ability of those people. Jared Correia (43:48): I don't know. You look pretty good to me. I can't juggle even once. Russell Matson (43:52): But that's the thing is if you surround yourself with really smart, successful people Jared Correia (44:00): In Russell Matson (44:01): Lots of different areas, Jared Correia (44:02): And Russell Matson (44:03): You take those tricks in a different environment, people think you're a genius. Whereas anyone in the UMass juggling club would be like, "Oh, he's not doing anything." But no one thinks you're going to juggle and eat fire at a punk show. Jared Correia (44:17): Right. What was the name of your band? Russell Matson (44:20): The band was called High Step and Seafood. Jared Correia (44:23): High Step and what? Russell Matson (44:24): High Step and Seafood. One of the things we would do was we would Jared Correia (44:31): Prepare. Russell Matson (44:34): I'd never seen another band bring in a toaster oven and make fish sticks and hand them out. So I was like, "Since our name is High Stepping Seafood." Jared Correia (44:41): That sounds amazing. Russell Matson (44:43): Yeah. I Jared Correia (44:43): Would love a fish stick right now. Damn. Russell Matson (44:46): And the thing is, for our mailing list at the time, first of all, we had a computer, which in '90s was a thing. And we had a database program, which was shocking. Jared Correia (44:58): Yeah, for Russell Matson (44:58): Sure. And we would mail out flyers. One time we mailed out scratch tickets to everyone and people were like. For a buck, we had an experience. And one time for our flyers, I was rejected from Harvard Law School. So on the back of the flyer, it had my rejection letter. Yeah. And my rejection letter from Harvard Law School. So you would just do these things, which I mean, lots of people I'm sure got rejected from institutions, but not many people would put that in the back of their flyer to advertise a show. Jared Correia (45:29): That is beautiful. I feel like you guys should do a reunion tour. Is it time for High Stepping Seafood to come back? Russell Matson (45:36): We haven't played together since I want to say the year 2000. But yeah, maybe we have more. Jared Correia (45:40): That's not stopped other bands. Russell Matson (45:42): Yeah. My brother who was the other half of Get Lawyer Leads was in the band. I still know. Jared Correia (45:51): High Stepping Seafood, the 2026 reunion tour. Russell Matson (45:55): Yeah, it was - Jared Correia (45:55): 2027. Give you a little bit of time. Russell Matson (45:58): Yeah. Jared Correia (46:00): Wow. We got a little bit of an additional interview segment. I'm excited. That never happens. Russell, when you were messaging with me about coming on the show, you said, and I quote, "I love Norm McDonald and Conan O'Brien." That's fair. Perfect place to be for that. So I prepared something for you, which I'd like to call the Norm McDonald Hour. For the next hour, we'll be exploring the life and career of Norm McDonald together in the form of various questions. Are you ready? Russell Matson (46:27): I was ready as algebra. Jared Correia (46:30): I'm just fucking with you. It's not going to be an hour. Maybe people will listen to that now. I've got some Norm trivia to see how you do. And I will say that no one has ever scored a perfect score on our trivia segment ever in the history of the podcast, but I feel like this might be the first time. You've surprised me thus far. I'm Russell Matson (46:54): Glad to see I've set your expectations so high that I cannot exceed them. That's what Jared Correia (46:59): I- I'm hoping for a perfect score one these days. Yes. So here we go. Question number one. It's a little known fact that Norm McDonald wrote and starred in the greatest film of all time, which is 1998's Dirty Work. A movie about two long lost brothers to start a revenge for hire business. I can give you multiple choice if you need it, but do you know this film and do you know who directed the movie? Russell Matson (47:30): Oh, I mean, I've seen some of it on Tubi. You've Jared Correia (47:36): Never watched Dirty Work all the way through? Russell Matson (47:39): I don't think I've watched. I think I've watched two thirds of it. Jared Correia (47:43): Oh, you got to watch this movie. Great. Russell Matson (47:46): Chris Farley is. And is it Artie Lang, the Howard Stern guy who sort of is. Jared Correia (47:54): Chris Farley is a Vietnam veteran whose nose was bit off by a prostitute who can't smell. Artie Lang is his half brother, long lost brother who starts a Revenge for Hire business with him. I could go line for line on Dirty. Chevy Chase, Dr. Farthing in Cheryl. Oh yeah, that's Russell Matson (48:12): Right. Yeah. Chemi's in it. And is it. See, it feels like Lorne Michaels would've been involved with it because it's a post. But then again, he was Jared Correia (48:25): Paying for it. Yeah. I think he was. This was before Norm was fired from Chevy. Oh okay. Yeah. Russell Matson (48:28): Maybe Jared Correia (48:29): That was. I think. Chevy Chase with the iconic, he bet on the movie Rocky IV and bet against Rocky. Excellent stuff. Russell Matson (48:41): Chevy is his own. There are lots of funny stories about Chevy which don't paint him a good light. Jared Correia (48:49): Well, right. But he's fucking hilarious in Dirty Work. Yeah, Russell Matson (48:52): He had a light. Jared Correia (48:53): One of his best roles. Russell Matson (48:54): Yeah. Jared Correia (48:54): Okay. So I'm going to give you some multiple stories for the director. All right. John Stamos, Bob Saget, or Dave Coulier. Which full house dad directed Dirty Work? Russell Matson (49:10): See, I know I would go with Bob Saget. I don't actually know, but that feels good. Jared Correia (49:15): You would be correct. Russell Matson (49:16): All right. Jared Correia (49:19): Bob Saget, like dirty comedian in real life. Yes. And apparently they were trying to work on a sequel before they both passed away, sadly. I didn't Russell Matson (49:30): Like Fullhouse at all, but Bob Saget is good in interviews. Jared Correia (49:34): Yes. All right. We're one for one. All right. So we're on a good path. Question number two. In 2005, Deuce Bigelow, European Gigolo, the sequel to Deuce Bigelow, Male Gigelow, the Rob Schneider vehicle, Norm made a cameo as what? An Irish male prostitute named Mannis, a pimp named Hicks, or a naked bicycle cop named Farley. All of these characters appear in the movie. Have you seen this one? Russell Matson (50:09): No, I haven't seen this thing. For Norm, I've watched all his SNL stuff. I haven't Jared Correia (50:15): Watched it. Russell Matson (50:17): Yeah. Most of his one-off stuff. You've Jared Correia (50:18): Got to get into the film Russell Matson (50:20): Into the filmography. Norm, in my opinion, was he's either one or 1A as greatest standup comedian. Jared Correia (50:32): As far as - Who's 1A? I mean, who's 1B? Do you Russell Matson (50:34): Have 1B? It's hard for me to say anything bad about Norm McDonald or Dave Chappelle. Jared Correia (50:41): Yeah, that's true. Oh, good. All right. We're going down all the right lines here. So I Russell Matson (50:46): Feel like - Jared Correia (50:47): What do you think his role was in Deuce Bigelow, European? If I had to Russell Matson (50:51): Guess, I feel like Irish male prostitute fits him more than Pimp. Jared Correia (50:58): Correct. Right. We're two for two. This is one of the single greatest monologues in film history. It's fucking hilarious. You should check it out on YouTube. This guy could play the hell out of a cameo. All right. Question number three. In Norm McDonald's first movie role, he asked the protagonist who he would rather bone, Chag Nicholson or Meg Ryan. Before clarifying that he meant 1974, Chag Nicholson. What was the movie? Russell Matson (51:28): Oh, no. Let's see. I don't even have - I can Jared Correia (51:32): Throw you some multiple choice if you want. Russell Matson (51:33): All right. Throw me some multiple choice. Jared Correia (51:36): The People versus Larry Flint, which you moved with Dave Chappelle or Billy Madison. Russell Matson (51:45): He was certainly in The People versus Larry Flint. Jared Correia (51:50): He was in all these movies. Russell Matson (51:51): Okay. He was a reporter in People versus Larry Flint who got out of a car because his thing was like he didn't drive. Jared Correia (52:01): Right. Russell Matson (52:04): And you said the first movie he was in? Jared Correia (52:06): This is his first movie appearance. Russell Matson (52:09): Okay. So I think I want to say Billy Madison is 95 and People versus Larry Flint is 96. So I'm going to go with Billy Madison. Jared Correia (52:17): Correct. We're three for three. It could be happening, Evan. Brace yourself. Question number four. For Norm McDonald's very first Saturday Night Live appearance in 1993, he played a waiter in a pre-recorded sketch with the show's host. Who was the host? Russell Matson (52:41): Can you Jared Correia (52:42): Give me choices available? Russell Matson (52:43): Anna Carvey is one of the choices. Jared Correia (52:47): Luke Perry, Jason Priestly, or Shannon Doherty. For those who are unaware, those were cast members for Beverly Hills 90210. That much. Which was an insanely popular show in the early '90s. Luke Perry, Jason Priestly, Shann Russell Matson (53:07): Dorry. Right. Because I was thinking about the Waiters Nauseated by Food sketch, which is a different. I feel like Sharon Dougherty probably hosted at one point, but I feel like almost certainly Luke Perry did. So I'm going to go with Luke Perry. Jared Correia (53:28): We were so close. Shannon Doherty. Your first instinct was correct. Yes. Well, we won't have our perfect score today, but you're still kicking ass. A lot of great waiter sketches on Saturday Night Live. The guy with the pepper, you liked the juice guys from the Italian restaurant. Good stuff. Russell Matson (53:49): The thing is, I can see it being true for several reasons. First of all, it's very common for comedians and writers to be waiters as their Jared Correia (53:59): Day job. That's a Russell Matson (54:00): Good point. Yeah. Plus, it's incredibly common for them to just sit around and drink and just sort of brainstorm with that environment. Oh, Jared Correia (54:13): True. True. All right. I got two more for you. In the show, Family Guy, a New England show said in the fictional town of Cohog, Rhode Island, Norm makes a legendary voice acting appearance as death himself, who attempts to claim Peter Griffin's soul. Only things go awry when something happens to death. What happens? Does he get an ear infection? Does he separate his shoulder? Or does he sprain his ankle? Russell Matson (54:46): I feel like an ear infection is the funniest thing for death. Jared Correia (54:50): That's a good point. Is that your final answer, sir? Russell Matson (54:53): That is our final answer. Jared Correia (54:55): Sprains his ankle. (54:57): So death sprains his ankle and then everyone becomes immortal and Peter Griffin has to become the grim reaper and Hilarity ensues. All right, we got one more. All right. These got tougher as we went on. In the Norm Show, which was Norm's sitcom that aired on ABC for three seasons from 1999 to 2001. I was surprised at that too. I though it would've been one before it was canceled. Which former movie co-star of Norms was brought in during season two to play his half brother? Was it Dave Chappelle, Traylor Howard, or Ardie Lang on the Norm Show? Season two of three. Surprising. I'm Russell Matson (55:40): Guessing Ardie Lang. Jared Correia (55:42): Correct. And that's because he was his brother in Dirty Work. So we got to Dave Chappelle. We got to Norm Sitcom. Any other Norm-centric information or stories? I mean, Russell Matson (55:57): Two best things. There's a whole OJ thing that went on for years, but his appearance with Courtney Thorne just going after Karachov was just, this is on becoming a riot chef. This was like - Jared Correia (56:12): Oh, he was also a great late night show guest. That's right. Russell Matson (56:15): Yeah. Those were his lanes. He was a great standup comic and he was maybe the best ever late night talk show hosts because he would do anything. And some of the funniest, the things I loved about Norm was people would be interviewed about him and they would be like, "I was legitimately afraid to be in the stage at Norm because you never knew what he was going to do. And he did not care about his reputation." Some of my favorite Norm stories were - Jared Correia (56:45): He said as he adjusted his wore helmet. Go on. Russell Matson (56:47): Yes. He was doing standup for like, it might've been New Jersey for a week. And Jeff, the guy who does the roasts, I can't remember his last name right now. Jared Correia (57:04): Oh, Jeff Ross. Yeah. Russell Matson (57:05): Jeff Ross. Yeah. He said he was with him for a week. And he did stuff that he'd never seen. When he would do well, he would hide them back at the end of the show. When he would bomb afterwards, he would go up to the front to greet the people on the way out because it just breaked this sort of awkward Jared Correia (57:21): And also - He had a little bit of Andy Kaufman to him, I think. Yes. So just so people know, so that Courtney Thorn Smith sketch, she was on Melrose Place. I think that was from Conan. And she was in a movie with Carrot Top, which he was trying to pronounce, which she was trying to promote. And Norm McDonald's was just shitting on Carrot Top for the entire interview. It is really funny. Russell Matson (57:46): And Norm's bit on. And this was in the '90s when people didn't do this thing. He had this great joke for Charles Woodson. And it was like this weird OJ callback. He was like, "Charles Woodson, first defensive player in decades to win the Heisman Trophy. No, you can't take that away from him." Well, unless he kills his ex-wife and a waiter, you can't take it away from him. And it's this thing where you see the reaction. He's a 21-year-old kid. He's lighting up. He's so excited that it's like, "Fuck. Why? Why?" Just this sort of. Jared Correia (58:21): Norm was great. I'm glad we did a little Norm tribute on the pot. We'll never be able to use all of this, but Russell, thank you for coming on. I had a lot of fun. Great. Thanks for our guest today. Russell Matson, who is a marketing and SEO consultant for criminal defense law firms. To learn more about Russell and his work, visit russellmatsonlaw.com. All one word. Russell rhymes with love musclematsonlaw.com. Now, because I'll always be a '90s kid who knows more decepticons than you, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I am now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the signs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, we're rolling out finally the long awaited Russells and/or Norms playlist. We're in honor of our recent guest and subject matter concentration. (59:23): We feature songs that feature prominent russels or norms in some way. That was a mouthful. And it's all brought to you by Russell Stover Chocolates. Actually, that is a house of lies. I don't even know anyone who works for Russell Stover Chocolate. And all the Norm Stovers I know are too old to be mixing chocolate and shit. Join this next time when I perform a dramatic reading of all 100 stories of the decameron to wile away the hours.