Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / A deep dive into Psychological and Physiological Hardiness , with Paul and Carly Taylor

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A deep dive into Psychological and Physiological Hardiness , with Paul and Carly Taylor · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Everyone, It's Caurly Taylor here on the Poul Taylor Podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Surprise surprise. So we're gonna it's a bit different today
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: because obviously normally you hear Paul's dulcet point.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Sorry, keep going, because I'm not starting it again. I
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: did the attitude you are.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: So starting this again Paul's dulcet tones.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: But today it's going to be a little bit different
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: because I'm actually going to be interviewing Paul on the podcast.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: So Paul, doctor Paul Taylor, Welcome to the Poul Taylor Podcast.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: Thank you, nice to be here.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So twenty twenty five was quite a big year for you,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and it's going to be relevant to what we're talking
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: about today.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: You ticked off.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: A lot of boxes. So it started off last January.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: In fact, a year ago you had open heart surgery,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: and you also published your second book, The Hardiness Effect,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: and just oh and after that you got your PhD.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: And you graduated, and you went and bore the funny
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: hat and actually got the bit of papers. So that's
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: why you are now, doctor Paul Taylor. So I wanted
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: to first ask you about your open heart surgery. I
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: know in the lead up to that it was quite
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: a process. And I kind of watched you through that process,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and you had written in whiteboard marker on the bathroom mirror,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: my worthy opponent, so kind of tell us a bit
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: more about that.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so that that comes from the stoic philosophers.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: And I remember actually when I got the diagnosis. So
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I walked in a little bit of backs. Lots of
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: people I've heard this, so make it quick. I played
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: soccer with a cardiologist and I said to him, hey, Ross,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: and now in my fifties, I want to get a
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: full of check up. So he brought me in, did
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a whole heap of tests, and then I walked in
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that day to get the debrief, expecting clean bit of
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: healthier fittshed a fiddle because they know it's pretty fit.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: And he said, good news is your fittis the fiddle.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Bad news is you were born with a heart defect.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: You have a bicuspard aortic valve rather than try cuspid.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: And we went through it, and basically the upshot was.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: You need to have open heart surgery at some stage
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: in the next few years or this shit's going to
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: kill you. So I remember walking out of there and
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: the words of Seneca hit me like a brick. I
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: pity the man who's not faced adversity, because he is
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: not faced an opponent, and nobody, not even him, knows
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: that what he is capable of. And then I remember
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: that epictetious talking about worthy opponents and the Olympic Games
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: of life. So as I was driving home, I thought, well,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: this is my worthy opponent. And I remembered in a
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: conversation i'd had with the main of my rage, who
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: had been the commanding officer of the Australian Special Forces
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: at the time of the First Golf War.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: And I remember having coffee with him.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: One day and asking him how it felt going to war,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: because I obviously spent years in the British military but
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: never went to war, and Red said something interesting. He said,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: he said, it was really interesting. He said there was
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: obviously a bit of.
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: Anxiety because we were going to war, but.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: He said the overwhelming feeling was a perverse sense of
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: excitement because this is what we had trained for and
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: we're beginning to test ourselves. And as I was driving
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: home and I thought it, I thought, well, I actually
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: this aligns beautifully with the Stoics, And I know that
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't get to choose your circumstances, but
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: you get to choose how you respond from reading all
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: the hardiness stuff, all the Victor Frankel stuff, all the
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: stoic stuff. So I actually thought to myself, you know,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: this is my worthy opponent. And I actually thought, well,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: this is what I've trained for. This is what has
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: been all about. My military training for the CrossFit, the
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: ice baths has all been to prepare me for my
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: worthy opponent. So I just framed it as that. And
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: as you know, xboxer did some karate, and I thought,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: this is a worthy opponent, And what are you going
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: to do if you're if you're in a contest, you're
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: going to fight somebody that's awesome. You need to get
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: your ship sorted. You need to have one hundred percent
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: focus on it. So I think from from that moment
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: on the way home, I chose to embrace it as
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: a challenge and chose to kind of get excited about it.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: And what did you do.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: To like you were if you chose to be excited
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: about open heart surgery, which is probably going to be
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: a very foreign concept for most people. But with that,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: what what was kind of your plan in the lead
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: up to the open heart surgery. So how were you
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: going to kind of so called go into battle with
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: your worthy opponent.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well so this is all about preparing, right, And
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: just like I thought, well you're preparing for a fight,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: what are you going to do. You're going to cut
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: the alcohol out, You're going to train your ass off,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: but you're going to get very scientific about the training program, right,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: So I dug into the research, you know, looking at
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: what gives me the best chance. You know, what are
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the chances of something going wrong? You know, you need
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: to understand the risks about it and then hardly optimize
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: yourself for recovery. And I knew that being physically as
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: strong as I could and as fit as I could
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: within the constraints was something that I needed to do
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: because I know that that enhances recovery.
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: So you know, I went in there in the.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Best possible ship and it was a bit of a
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: I had to be careful because obviously with.
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: The valve, the by cuspit valve, it starts to leak.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: So the more I was going to be doing high
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: intensity stuff, the more I was going to be exacerbating
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: that leak. But I thought, that's a reasonable trade off
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: for me getting in the best shape that I possibly
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: can so and a silver lining of that was I
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: eventually ticked off.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: The fifty to fifty to fifty.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: So there's this challenge that I'd had a couple of
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: attempts up before but never quite.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: Made it, and I made it a month before open
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: heart surgery.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: So that's be in your fifties, have your heart rate
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: variability above fifty, your VEO two max above fifty, and
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: you're resting heart rate below fifty. And quite a few
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: times I had two out of three, but not all,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: and I managed to get all of them. So I
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: knew going in that I was in really really good
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: shape physically. Mentally I was in good shape as well.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I think the other thing that I did, and you'll
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: remember this, is I started seriously contemplating my death and
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I forced myself to do it, even though I knew
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: the risks of me dying on the operating table were
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: less than one percent, but I forced myself to do it.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: And actually, one thing that you said, you.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Know, I always take the dogs out for the morning,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: and I used to listen to podcasts, and you said, well,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: why don't you just be present. And I actually used
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: that morning walk to contemplate my own mortality, and I
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: actually went in that with a bit of an acceptance
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: that if it all goes to shit, I've.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: Had a fucking awesome life. I've had a really good
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: life and not many regrets.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: And if I do get through it, what am I
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: going to tweak going on?
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Because it really as you were talking about that, there
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: were a few things that were coming to mind. One
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: is the acceptance part, is a staunch excit of your reality.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: But taking action with that, it's like, okay, it's that Aragamama,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: that Japanese, beautiful Japanese concept of with things as they are,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: what needs to be done.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: And part of that is that.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Stoic of the stoic way of focusing on what you
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: can control and not putting all your focus on the
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: things that you can't control.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: And it's all done with a very strong sense of purpose.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: So what did you do? And I don't think I've
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: ever asked you this?
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: How did you manage when those fear thoughts came up?
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Because it's like, you're not superhuman here. It's like a
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: huge thing going in for any surgery, let alone open
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: heart surgery. So when the fear did come up, when
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: you were thinking kind of worst case scenario, what did
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: you do to kind of manage those thoughts and that
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: those emotions.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I just looked at it from my perspective of
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: what are the chances. So the chances are way less
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: than one percent, but it's it's still there. So but
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: but really for me, it was it was about just
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: getting to a point of accepting that if this is it,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: then this is it. If my numbers up, my numbers up,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: and I've had a freaking good life.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: The one major regret that I would have had well too,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: actually would be one seeing our kids grow up, and
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: two really enjoying retirement, you know, and and and you know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: just just.
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: Enjoying the fruits of your labor.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: But I actually I had that accept and and to
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: be honest, you know, once I had analyzed all of
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: the risks and I knew it was less one percent
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: and die on the operating table, and that that actually,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: you know, I was in really good ship, so my
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: chances would be way less than one percent. So I
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: was was just quite thought are cognitive around it. You know,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't bring much emotion into it and went, yeah, yeah,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: and if if.
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: It's to be, then it's to be.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: And then it was the old I think I really
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: hung on to Epictetis's play your given roles.
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, you know that.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: He said that we're all actors in the play and
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: sometimes we get a part of this and a lot
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: of our choosing, and that was certainly the case. And
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: he said your your purpose then is to play your
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: given role. Well, so that was for me was how
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: do I play that well for myself?
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: But how do I play that well for my kids?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Because I was very aware that my kids were watching me,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: and they don't so much do what you say, they
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: do what you do. So I was pretty cognizant of that.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: And and then I was just completely focused on on recovery.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: So as you as you know, I was so focused
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: on recovery even before the operation. Yeah, so that's just
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I just channeled all of my energy into preparing the
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: best that I could for my worthy opponent and prepping
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: for my recovery because I wanted to recover a shit
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: little quicker.
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were incredibly proactive, and I think in
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: a case like this with surgery, do you put so
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: much trust in the surgeon, you put so much trust.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: In the.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Medical team around you. But with that you also were
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: incredibly proactive in what else can I do? And I
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: think that's you know, what I was observing from you,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: was this this real sense of purpose of what can
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: I do with all my might to make this to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: make my recovery as smooth as possible? And it, yeah,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: I mean it paid off.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I knew the thing that I couldn't
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: control was the skill of the surgeon. And you know,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: I went and met the surgeon. I asked him, how
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: many of these have you done? How many have you
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: had to revisit? How many have died on it? And
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: you know, he gave me all the answers, and I said, well,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, good hands here, and said to him, just
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: just make sure you have a good night sleep.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: And also, I think when you actually we went into surgery,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: it's like going back to another storic idea of the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: art of acquiescence, which is surrendered to that which is control.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: And that is a pure surrender.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean giving up or you know, throwing your
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: hands at me and going this is it.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: It's just like it's just a pure surrender. It's now
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: over to the surgeon.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: That was exactly it.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I went into that theater knowing that I had left
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: no stone turned, and I actually, as I was going under,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I said to the surgeon, right, I've done my bit.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: You do your bit?
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Nwe yeah, yeah, you just take your handing the button.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: Either, yeah. And then and then I thought, when I
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: wake up, I'll get it back.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, and you did.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: I did.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: We won't going to that one though, Well.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: I think that's important.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Actually we cut just in terms of what well in
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: ice you when I first woke up, yeah, you know,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: and you thought I was completely bonkers, but I had
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: wires hanging out of me and I wanted to get
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: out of bed and you were like, what are you doing?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: You don't you can't get out of bed, and I'm like,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I need to get out of bed.
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: And I did.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: I think you remember I did ten squats. They were
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: pretty shitty squats, but and it's not recommended that you
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: do this in ic stupid really I probably was, but
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: but you know, I was still off my face of morphine,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: but it was just in my head.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: My recovery starts as soon as I wake up. Yeah, yeah,
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: and I think it.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I don't even remember that, no, no, but it was
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: I know that it was just it was in my
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: head that I have to start my recovery right now.
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we won't mention all the Monty Python quotes.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: As soon as you came out of it, you're quoting
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Monty Pipe, which was very amusing for me and Oscar.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: So I want to move on to your second book,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: which is the Hardiness Effect. So the heartiness is there's
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: a difference between hardiness and resilience. And we all know
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: the word resilience, and I think it's been it's been overused.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I think people are confused now of what does resilience
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: mean and how do I become resilient? And but you
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: have actually shifted your focus on to heartiness. So what
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: is the difference between hardiness and resilience.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: So resilience is about boncing back from adversity. Hardiness has
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: been called the courage to grow from stress. Right, So
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: resilience is post event, but hardiness is actually a set
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: of psychological or cognitive orientations that actually.
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: Prepare you in advance. And that's the key thing, and
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: the research is that it does help people to grow
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: from stress.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And you'll know, for years, I've been talking about beyond resilience.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: You know, I've run workshops around beyond resilience, and I've
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: always talked about being stress adapted, which is better than
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: bouncing back.
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: It's how do you grow from stress?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: And then I uncovered hardiness and then forgot that I'd
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: read about it Jesus maybe fifteen years ago in a
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: brilliant book called bio Behavioral Resilience to Stress, which was
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: all about.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: The forces really prepare for stuff, and I'd forgot about it.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: And I rediscovered it when I was doing my literature
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: review for my pH d. And it was one of
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: those ones where you go, oh.
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: Shit, why have I forgotten about this?
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Because as I started diving into it, I started to
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: become more and more excited about it, and I'm like,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: this is the thing that I've been looking for that
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: is beyond resilience, and actually there's thirty years of research
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: around it, right that.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: Is just really compelling.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: And that's why I switched my focus from resilience to
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: heartiness because there's so many more real world benefits and
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: it's very clear what it is like if you.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: When I did my Literature Review.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: There's so many different definitions of resilience, Like there's not
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: one agreed definition of resilience out there, and so that
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: makes it difficult. And then when you look at training
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: program interventions and they are for resilience, like programs to
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: help people with resilience, they're actually pretty underwhelming. And especially
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: I looked into military stuff, and lots of resilience training
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: programs have been implemented that had no real good scientific
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: basis for it and actually really quite ineffective. The US
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: military rolled out the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program, and this
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: was all based on resilience stuff that was proven in
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: school kids but had never been tested in military personnel.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And because some general liked it and and got completely
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: enamored with.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: What do you call it? Who's the name of the guy?
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I've just had a brilliant art the father of positive psychology.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: Seligment, Martin Seligment. So he had done this massive thing
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: on school kids and.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Showing that you could improve their resilience, and then they
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: rolled it right across the US military.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: And I had bugger all impact.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Wow. And then but you see that hardiness in the
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: military predicts who passes and who feels basic military training.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: It predicts who passes Special Forces selection training, the toughest
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: physical and mental course you could possibly imagine. Hardiness predicts
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: who passes police special operations. It also predicts career longevity
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: in high pressure environments such as the military, police and
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: first responders, and even school kids who are hair and hardings,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: which I'm sure we'll talk about. They're much more likely
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: to go to university than people who are not so
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: so for me, they it was pretty clear when I
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: dug into the race arch that this is the way forward.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that that saying, and I hope I
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: get this right.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Is resilience is the outcome.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Hardiness is how you get there, because hardiness is a process.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It's it's very action orientated. You know, there's and we
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: can dive into what hardiness is and how you can
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: apply it to your own life. But yeah, resilience just
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't like what do I do to be resilience? Hardiness
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: is the answer to that. That's really simplifying it. So
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: you talk about the four seeds of psychological hardiness, So
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: what are the four seeds?
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so look, there's three seeds in the literature.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I've actually added a fourth one, and I had a
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: good chart with Paul Barton, who's probably the most prolific
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: hardiness researcher. He's a US military psychologist. I've had a
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: couple of charts with him. He's been great, and he
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: actually agreed that the fourth one. He says it's kind
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: of buried a little bit in the three, but he
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: agreed that it should be sort of standalone. So it's
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: control challenge, commitment, and the one I've added this connection.
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: Right, so control orientation.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: People high in heartiness have this deep belief that they
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: ultimately control or heavily influence their environment and their destiny.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: And they understand that shit will happen, they'll get shits
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: and which is from the universe, but ultimately they're determined
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: to control it. And they also focus on what they
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: can control. And low hearty people have what's called an
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: external lookers of control. So high hearty people have this
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: internal lookers of control. I control my destiny. Are low
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: hearty people have an external lookers of control? You know,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: they they ultimately believe deep down that their destiny is
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: heavily influenced by other people, by outside events. Right. You'll
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: hear them say this shit always happens to me. I'm
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: an unlucky person. My life was sorted and COVID ruined it.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: This person ruined my life. Right, that's externalizing their destiny
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: to others. Whereas high hearty people go, yeah, Jesus, that
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: was hard, but ultimately I got through it. So that's
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: control orientation in a nutshell. Challenge orientation is two components
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: of this, how you react to change and how you
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: react to adversity. So high hearted people look at change
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: as an opportunity to learn, grow and develop, whereas low
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: hardy people look at changes threatening and it's a bad
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: thing and they resist change, right, And lots of people
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: who've been in the workplace, you know they'll have seen
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: this over and over again. But then when it comes
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: to adversity, low hardy people viewed as a threat and
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: they tend to avoid, procrastinate, run away, whereas high hearty
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: people look at it as a challenge.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: Right, And so you know that was the.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: First thing I did with my open heart, hurt worthy
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: opponent is to challenge and then commitment.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: So there a couple of elements to commitment.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: High hearty people are they're just committed to life it's
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: about being fully engaged in life's activities, right.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: Being engaged at work, being engaged in your.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: Social life and your home life, and what that means
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: about being engaged.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: And this is my take on it.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Like like you will know people who are high hardy
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: from a commitment perspective because they just bring energy. They're
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: you know, they're just they're interested, they're curious that they
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: just and then low hardy people are fucking energy vampires, right,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: But I think this goes into personal life and and
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: this is again this is just my thinking, but my
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: concern is that there are more and more people who
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: are spending increasing amounts of their spur time within the
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: confines of four walls, with their heads buried in a
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: goddamn screen, and they are looking to be entertained.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: Right. I call them passive consumers of life. And I'm not.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Saying there's no role for being entertained, but that shouldn't
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: be where you spend most of your time. And there's
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of people that spend so much of their
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: spare time on a goddamn screen.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: I am not every time there's a space of time.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: If you start to know, I mean I often do
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: this as well, if I've got like a little block,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: even if it's five minutes, there's just such a temptation
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: to reach for the phone.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: It's like an automatic thing.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Look, and I think the best thing that we ever
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: did was we took the.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: TV out of the living room. Yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was just a game changer for us, because
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: you know, it was only after it that we noticed that,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: you know, it would be on in the background and
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: then you'd sit down and watch stuff that was just
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: really not that interested in.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: I mean, now, as you know, the only.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Time I watch TV is something that I'm super super
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: interested in.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Think that's part of the control, isn't it is.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: The other thing that we do is we never have
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: our phones in the room at night, and the kids
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: don't where you don't. They're always on charge in the kitchen,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: So there's not that temptation when you wake up in
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: the morning just to reach for your phone and then
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden you've got inputs.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: This is what I say to people.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm quite direct when I present, and I
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: say to people, if your eyes look at your phone
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: before your feet hit the grind in the morning, your.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Life is fucked.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: That is very direct.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: It is very direct. But it's like I do that
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: just to grab people's attention. Yeah yeah, I actually go,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: oh shit, you know, you're just inputs as soon as
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: you wake up.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: It is anti stoic to do that.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Marcus Aurelius would be turning in his rigging grieve at the.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Thought of that, say you've done oh sorry, that was
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: controlled challenge commitments, commitment.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: So we talked about being fully engaged in life, but
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: it's also about having.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: A sense of meaning and purpose in life. Yep. And
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: here's the thing. And I think about this a lot,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: as you.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Know, you know, I'll sit of an evening and just
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: sit and look out at the sky and think about
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: purpose and all that. And and I I've come to
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: the conclusion that Victor Frankel was one hundred percent right.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: Life has no meaning other than what you give it.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would encourage people to just sit at
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: night and look at the stars and think about this shit,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: right that that, yes, there's us, and we see the
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: world through our lanes and everything is about us and
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: our emotions.
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: And experience and who's doing what they are. But we
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: are a.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Tiny frigginspect like that stoic view from above if you're
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: going to sit there and you're in your own head,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: and then you zoom out and you go to one
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: hundred feet and you open the lens or one hundred
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: meters up in the sky, like you take in hundreds
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: of people or thousands, right, who are all having their
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: own individual experiences. And then the higher you get in
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: the sky, the more and more people that there are,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: and not only people, insects, animals, all having their own experience, right,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: And then you zoom out in the space, and like,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: like when you understand how big the universe is, it
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: is very clear that we are nothing, absolutely nothing, And
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: so the only conclusion that you can draw unless you're
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: a complete Holy Joe, right and who thinks that this
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: is all about God? And you know that's another podcast,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: but that the only conclusion that you can draw is
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: about meaning and purpose.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Is the only meaning and purpose in life? Is what
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: I give it. Yeah, yeah, there's no fucking purpose, fairy.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: There is no purpose fairy.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: But do you know what this reminds me of is
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: it reminds a mere bit of Ikey guy, that Japanese concept.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about the then diagram I guy
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: that everybody knows because that is actually it's wrong interpretation.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: It's not Ikey Guy that and that is another podcast.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I think I've done a Mojo Monday on that. But
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Ikey Guy, Iki means life and guy means value or
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: worse roughly. But the word iki they actually have. The
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Japanese have two words for life. They have a word
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: iki for daily life and they have a word life
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: for your whole life. And this makes so much sense
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: And how much.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Easier is it to think of is to separate the
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: meaning of your life to today and the meaning of
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: your life as a whole. And what Ikey Guy got
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: does is it it helps you recognize the small things
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: every single day.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: That are actually giving your life meaning.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: And that could be as simple as sipping your coffee
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: in the morning, can be playing with your dog. It
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: can be gardening, a hobby, being with your kids, whatever
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: it is, These really small meaningful things are what gives
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: your life purpose. It doesn't have to be this huge thing.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: So yes, absolutely what you were saying. You can recognize
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: how insignificant we are in the whole scheme of things,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: in the whole scheme of the universe, and then you
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: can then drill it down to your life right now
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: and what gives meaning to you every single day, because
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: if you're not looking for it, you won't see it.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I mean. There's no purpose for it.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: And you know what really brought that home to me.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: I remember being in Singapore doing a workshop must be
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: a decade ago, probably more actually, and I've gone to
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Japanese restaurant. I was on my own and I was
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: watching the chef making food and I've never seen somebody
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: so engaged in what they were doing. It was, it was,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: It was actually quite a profound moment. And because I've
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: known a little bit about Japanese culture, but just that
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: whole about how they throw themselves into whatever they're doing.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: And then it was when I was.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Watching him that an old Zen Cohen finally made sense.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So zen Cohen's Zen Buddhism. These are proverbs that I
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: was into a bit of Zen Buddhism in my early
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: twenties and I just couldn't get my head around it,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: and particularly one thing where there's this the student monk
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: who goes to his master and he says, Master, how
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: can I be enlightened? And the master said to him,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: have you had your breakfast? And he said yes, and
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: he said, then wash your bowl. And for years I was.
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: Like, what the fuck does that mean? It was on
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: when I saw this guy.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Being so engrossed in what he did and making this
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: beautiful thing on a clay it that I was like,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that's what it's about, right, It's about being and it's hardiness, commitment,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: being fully engaged in whatever you do.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: And it links in with the stoics.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Right, you play your give and role well and that
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: means that whatever your circumstances right.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: Now is you do it well. Right.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: If you're making your bed, you do a brilliant job
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: of making your bed. Right, it's just do what it
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: is well, be fully engaged and fully immersed in it.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: And that's mindfulness, right it is.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: And that's what I'm trying to teach Oscot out fifteen
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: year old Sam tis even if it's boring, do it
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: well and just I cape sort of repainting it over
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and Ivy.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Team because.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: The first step with him is remembering to do it
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: and then.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Go on to commitment to connection.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: So connection, look, I have added it because.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: And particularly when it comes to stress, right, connection is
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: so important. The human brain is fundamentally a social organ
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: We know that the single biggest or are one of
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: the biggest predictors are sorry, let me let me do
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: that again. Being lonely is as bad for your health.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: As smoking ten cigarettes.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Right, And and a massive Harvard study has shown around
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: longevity is this is one of the key thing is
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: having having good relationships, right and then particularly in times
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: of stress, particularly because you know, I talked about the
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Hanoi Hilton a lot, and and the and the tap code,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: like if anybody hasn't read anything on Hanoi Hilton, just
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: just to look it up and and just see what
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: these guys went through, particularly Jim Stockdale. But it was
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: the tap code and talking when I interviewed Lee Ellis
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: that I really got it that that that capital when
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: they tapped on the walls and the pipes to each
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: other when they were being tortured or solitary confinement, that
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: was what kept them going, right. And it's when there's adversity,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: you know, it is about relationships with other people. And
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I know that from being in the military, even you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: a less extreme form of adversity like and I was
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: talking about this a CrossFit to somebody like going suffering
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: together is so much easier than suffering along. Yeah, right,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: And anybody who's been who trains hard knows that if
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: you're training hard with other people, it's a lot.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: More doable than doing it on your own. Right.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: There's something about that shured suffering and being through it
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: together or at least having somebody along your side whenever
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: you're really struggling. So I think connection is hugely important,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: and that's about developing meaningful relationships in your life. And
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: are not sitting back and going they haven't contacted me,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: get the fuck out of your personal petty party, and
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: be the one who reaches out to all friends or
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: reaches out to repo relationships rather than waiting for this
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: to happen, right, So for me, it's about be the connector.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's key.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I think with friendships and connections with people too, I
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: think there are so many different layers and to accept.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: That as well.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Because you might have just a few friends who you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: know will be in your trenches if something is going
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: to go wrong, they are the ones that are going
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: to be are going to be there for you, and
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: it kind of filters out to other friends who might
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: serve a different purpose, you know, and that's okay too.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: We have we have a lot of friends that have
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: kind of different, different purposes.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: For our life.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: I think that's really important too.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: But the deeper you get to know someone and the
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: more vulnerability you share it with them, the more they
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: move into that camp of being in your chrene.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not always, but yeah, allowing allowing that, Yeah, opening
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: yourself up, being open to that. So just before we
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: move on to the next part, So all of this
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: is in your book, like, I know, the story of
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Jim Stockdell is in your book as well. So somebody
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: might be listening to this and especially when you're talking
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: about control and challenge and go, oh jeez, I don't sound.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: Like a very hearty person.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Is there hope for them? Like, so what is it?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: How do you train yourself to be hearty?
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent, there's hope. I mean I've done
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: a study on it.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: My PSC research were we did an intervention and we
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: tested people's heartiness. We tested their resilience and their gratitude,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: their perceived stress in their life. We also did cognitive
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: function tests and we got improvements across.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: The board in eight weeks. Right. So this is and
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: this is why I love it, because you will not
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: see the needle move that much on resilience. Right.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I've done other studies where we've seen the moddle needle
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: move a little bit on resilience, but not as much
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: as hardiness.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: And that's why I'm really excited about.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: It, is there's more real world outcomes and you can
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: learn to be hardier, right, whereas resilience is a bit harder,
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: certainly much harder actually to move the needle on. And
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I think that's well recognized in the academic literature.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, okay, So we talked about the four
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: seeds of psychological heartiness.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Actually, maybe just give people and just a little tippit
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: about what they could do in each one of those
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: rather than just say you can learn it and go
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: buy my book. Hey, you can't buy my book. And
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: there's much more into it. But but for control, orientation
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: is having that focus on what you can control right
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: when when shit happens.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: Write it down.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Divide the page in two on the left hand side,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: right down everything that's in zone one, what is within
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: my will, my part, my control, and may be a
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: bit down the bottom that's not in my control, but
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: in my influence. And on the right hand side of
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: the page of write down everything that's not in your
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: control or influence, what other people think, what they say,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: what they do, the past, the future COVID nineteen all that.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Shit market forces, automatic thoughts.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: Automatic thoughts and emotions. Yeah, yeah, they're not in your control,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: but how you respond is.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: And even if in some situation the right hand side
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: of the page is full and you're struggling with something
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: that's within your control, the one that is always in
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: your control is how you.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: Choose to respond to your circumstances.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Victor Frankel was all over this like a spider monkey,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: as with the Stoics two thousand years before them. Right,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: So there's that doing that Zones of control exercises is
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: really really important. And then you know, when it comes
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: to behavior, because we'll get into this a little bit.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: You know, you can control your environment.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: So if you want to be healthier and get alcohol
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: out of the house, right, get ship food out of
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: the house. Don't tell yourself it's for your kids, because
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: it's fucking your kids up. Just get it out of
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: the house, right. Put healthy food at the front of
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: the fridge rather than the back, because the research shows
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: you're much more likely to eat.
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: Something at the front. So when your kids come.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Home from school having healthy food chopped up on a plate,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: they're much more likely to go and eat it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: Right. Put your exercise gear at the end of your bed,
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: keep it in your car.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: You know one thing you know that I always tell you,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: even if I come home from mark at eleven o'clock
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: at night, I get changed into my exercise gear because
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: it's an enabler of other ones. So it's really about
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: setting up your environment to succeed.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: Controlling your environment.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: As soon as much as you can, avoiding people who
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: are toxic, right, getting out of those relationships, all those
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: sorts of things. So there are a couple of things
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: that you can do in control. And I got much
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: more in the book in Challenge Orientation. It's really you know,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: when change comes along, is go, right, well, how can
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: this help me to grow and learn?
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: How can I dive.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Into it, embrace the change rather than resist the change,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: because we're only alive because.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: We're changing all the time at a cellular level. Right.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is just getting into
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: the habit of viewing adversity as a challenge and just
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: saying to me, right this, this is a worthy opponent
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: right now, right, and so what am I going to do?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: If I was an elite athlete, then this was what
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: would I do?
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: And so really trying to just just keep thinking about
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: that challenge orientation and from a commitment perspective.
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: I think writing a.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Tombstone statement is hugely important, right, And I actually in
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: workshops get people to do this in three minutes most
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: of the time, and I say, who here has a
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: clear sense of meaning and purpose in their life that
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: they could communicate to me right now. I'm not going
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: to ask you, but I just want to show your hands.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Always less than ten percent of people put their hand up, right,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And then three minutes later, well after a brief set
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: of instructions, way more than half people have a starter, right.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: And I just get people to write down what would
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: you like to be written on your tombstone that would
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: sum up your contribution to your little corner of the universe, Right,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: that's it, And think about the stuff that you're passionate about, right,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: but also think about what were if it was taken
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: away from you would cause a massive chasm because that
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: starts to give you your clue as to what's really important
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: to you. And I think the other thing at the
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: important here, which you're big on, is getting clear on
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: your values.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think you know.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: I'm a religious I'm a recovering Catholic. I've been recovery
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: for forty years. But I actually think a chunk of
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: the problems in our society is the breakdown of religion.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter what the religion is, whether it's Christianity, Islam, Judaism,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: any of those religions. They all give people a sense
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: of purpose, a connection into something that's bigger than themselves.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: But they all give them a guide of hard to live,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: a set of moral values, and then when you don't
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: have that, you have to do the work otherwise you
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: enter into an existential vacuum. So for me, it's about
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: getting clear on your values. And there's a couple of
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: things that you can do value strengths. There's overlapped in
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: those things. I like the via character strengths. There's a
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Clifton strengths as well. There's other things on values you
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: can do on the internet.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: But I like a little bit of strengths and some
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: values that is to me, and this.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Is kind of an act spake exceptions commitment theory. Values
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: are your compass. So when you are at that crossroads
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: of making a choice and you especially if that in
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: a voice is in your head that's saying, let's just
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: use the example of like, oh, I'm so tired and
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I really can't be bothered going to the gym. It's
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: going to be too hard, and you're at that crossroads
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: and should I go or shouldn't I go? If your values,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: if one of your values is to be fit and healthy,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: then you use that as your compass to go to
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: put on your gear and to go to the gym
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: and to work out as best that you can in
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: the circumstances that you're in that moment, rather than following
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: that other voice of no, I'm going to put my
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: jarmi's on and or my track is on and lie
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: on the sofa, so which you know you have to
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: make that choice in that moment. I mean maybe sometimes
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: lying on the sofa is what you need, but you
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: need to make that choice. But your values give you
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: more of an intentional choice rather than a reactive choice.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: One hundred percent. So yeah, that they would be the
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: things I would I would say around that.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: And then from connection, it's really about doing the work
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: in terms of your relationships. And you know, we have
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: these conversations with our kids all the time, because especially kids,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: it's it's like me, me, me, me, me right, and
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: and that's natural. But you know, I've said to care
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I've said to Oscar, and you have as well.
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: You have to work at relationships.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: You can't just expect that one side give give, given,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: your just take take take.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: You've you've got to put effort in on all of
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: your relationships.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: And that includes putting effort in to stay in touch,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: you know, on the other side of the world from
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of great mates, and I make an
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: effort to reach out to those guys and and and
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: lately I've decided to just you know, be a bit
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: more of a connector, you know. So there's yeah, yeah,
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: we talked about friends are on. There's people I've met
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: at cross fit, and you know, we have a chat
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: at CrossFit and stuff like that, and there there's a
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: couple of them that I get on with, and I
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: just thought I'm just gonna reach out, so, you know,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: because we've mentioned golfers, like, hey, how about we have
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: a game of golf together, you know, be the connector
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: rather than where to be connected. Yeah, it's about getting
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: on the front foot.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: And that can actually go link with challenge too, because
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: there are some people who are maybe more introverted. It
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: may be a big thing for them to have the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: courage to actually reach out to people. There may be
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: a fear of rejection, so so you can bring in
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: the control and the challenge in there as well to
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: actually take that action to connect with paper.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And even your goal this year is to get rejected
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: five times.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good one if you're dating, isn't it.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: That's right?
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: How many rejections can I get?
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: All right, let's move on to physiologic called heartiness, because
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: you also include that in the book. So it's not
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: just about psychological hardiness. Tell us more about that.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So for me, this is this is another area
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: that I'm hugely passionate about me and a good made
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: of mind. Professor Grant Schofield. People will know about this.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: You know, we are we are hormesis geeks. Hormesis is
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: nature's heartiness. There are over six hundred known.
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: Hormetic stressors out there.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: These are stressors that at high levels can kill you,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: but at low to moderate levels induce stress resistance. Right,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: So I'll just give you an example. There's a billion
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: years of evolution that covers fruitflies, worms, rodents, cats, dogs, primates,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: and humans. Right, there's a billion years of an evolutionary
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: journey in that all of those species react the same
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: to the stress of cold, the stress of heat, and
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: the stress of physical activity by upregulating protective genes. Right,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: So it's initiated by heat shock proteins. These are stress
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: response genes that they trigger, these protective pathways, the antioxidant
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: response pathway, and HIF one. These are These are are
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: very well established, grounded and evolution and pathways that make
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: the host more hardy because of exposure to that stress.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Because it's basically nature's way of adapting to whether it's
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: cold or lots of physical activity or hate. Shit, this
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: is a stressor and it may well come along again.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: So I need to adapt so that I can handle
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: that more.
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: Right. And the one that everybody gets is exercise. Right.
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: You know, you think you'd be a musculo skeletal system
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: if you don't have to exercise. You lose it, right,
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: and you will lose your muscles, they will atrophy, You'll
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: lose your strength, your speed, your part all of that.
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: And it's when you exercise that you get bigger, faster, stronger.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: Why do you get bigger, faster, stronger because.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Of stress response proteins, Because you're putting a stress on
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: your body and your body then adapts to it.
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: But we know sunlight is another hermetic stressor you don't
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: get any sunlight or very little sunlight. We now know
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: that your risk of almost every cancer other than skin
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: cancer goes through the roof. But you get too much
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: sunlight and you get skin cancer. Right.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: So this is the classic hormetic nothing. When there's none
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: of it, it's not good for you.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: A little bit of it is good, bit more is better,
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: but there's a point where it starts to tail off,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: you lose some of the benefits and eventually it starts
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: to become bad for you. So cold exposure right, which
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: is all the reage right now. And it's really interesting.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: I see people, and it's generally blokes on Instagram doing
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: to do ten minutes in a two degree icepath, and
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: I think you fucking dickhead, all you're doing is flexing
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: your ego because when I spoke to Professor Mac Tipton,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: he said, the vast majority of the benefits of cold
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: exposure come in the first thirty seconds, and if you
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: stay in too long, you start to negatively affect your
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: immune system.
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: It's a typical hormatic stressor, right.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: So, and there are nutritional stressors that are out there.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: So that the second half of the book is dedicated
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: to physiology, right, and how we can train and manipulate
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: our physiology to optimize our heartiness because for me it's that.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: But as a psychophysiologist, I think anybody who tells you
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: that you can optimize mental health with thinking skills is
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: fucking batshit crazy and should be locked up.
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: The body and the brea in our one.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Entity, right, it's it's an it's an ecosystem. And yes,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: your psychology influences your physiology. Anybody who's been chronically stressed
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: knows that, right, you get arable ball syndrome, you get tension,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: you get anxiety, which is actually a physiological thing rather
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: than a psychological it's a bit of both. But but
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: we know that your physiology has a massive effect on
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: your psychology.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: And it just it just beffles me that the d
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: s M five, which is the bible of of diagnosing
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: people with disorder different mental health disorders, doesn't include physiology,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: or if there is, it's minimal.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Look, if I was Tzarre of the universe, I would
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: make every single physiology psycho psychologist, counselor, and especially psychiatrists
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: do a deep course on physiology, understand the physiology of
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: physical activity, on how that massively influences neurotransmitter systems, brain structure,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: blood flow, neurogenesis, angiogenesis, all of this stuff.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: But our nutrition has a massive effect on it as well.
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: That we know now that the diet high and ultraprocessed
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: foods increases the risk.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Of common mental health disorders by fifty three percent.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: That is absolutely huge.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: Right, And we know that a good diet on its
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: own can help to resolve mental health disorders.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: We know that vinamin D on its own is actually
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: an effect of antidepressant. And you know there's a whole
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: heap of things. Even curcumen can be an effective antidepressant.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: But then when if you combine exercise, good diet, sleep, hygiene,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: time and nature and sunlight, you combine all of those things,
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: it would pess all over any psychological and pharma pharmacological
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: in direction.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: But together this is this is my passion, is that
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: psycho physiological approach. I think we have to have both
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: them and me and Grant want to run research using
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: a hardiness approach versus standard of care, whether it's for
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: depression or anxiety. I think they're the too easiest to study.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what, I would bet my bottom
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: dollar my house so would pawn my children on the ICUP.
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: I really would.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is all about prevention, isn't it. And
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to quickly before we finish up, talk
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: quickly about the Hardiness school project that we're working on,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: because what I love about heartiness is this is.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: A preventative approach. And I think if.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: We can raise our kids to be hearty kids, it
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: is going to put them in such a good position
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: when they're older in life to prevent them from being
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: diagnosed with a disorder, for them to be able to
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: face the challenges that are inevitably got they're going to
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: come across in.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: Life and to grow and to grow from those challenges
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: that Yeah.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So we are working with Wulnable College to do
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: this hardiness Schools project.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: Do you want to just talk about sort of how
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: that came about?
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: And yeah, So I've done a talk to a bunch
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: of school principles on heidiness and then off that lots
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: of principles said can you come in and talk to
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: my staff? So I did a whole heap of schools
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: and I generally do the schools at a massively cut
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: price because I want to give back a little bit.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: And then Warnable College came up to me afterwards and said,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: I will reach out to me a bit afterwards and said, hey,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: what about create seeing a twenty week year ten elective
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: on on hardiness for the skills Because all the teachers
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: went that was bloody awesome.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: Our kids need this.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And I remember coming home and telling you about it,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: and you nearly paid yourself with em.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: And so did I.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: But but you know, it's the stuff that we are
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: both very very passionate about.
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: And you know, you work with kids way more than
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: I do.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: But you know, we've had We were working with the
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: teacher there called gold who's who's brilliant, and we're mapping
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: it to the Victorian education standards and.
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: The whole thing. And and you know, we were all.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Daled in on this that that that the gold as
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: well as the two of us is it has to
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: be experiential.
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: So it can't just be theory. It's it's experience. Right.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: So we're going to teach the kids all the theory
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: about control, challenge, commitment, connection and in all the physiology exercise, nutrition,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: time and nature, you know, all of these things, and
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: they're going to be doing challenging things, you know, but
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: reflecting on.
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: Them, right.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: And I think that that reflection process, you know, a
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: little bit of education.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: Here's what it is.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is going to be difficult. Now let's do
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: the hard thing. Now let's reflect did you learn what
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: was hard? And and we're going to be assessing right
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: at the start. And that's the geek in me is like,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: we need to assess to see how they how we
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: can move the needle on their on their well being,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: on a number of other things. So we're doing a
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: number of of well established assessments on kids, not just
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: around mental health, but but around their ability to lean
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: into challece. There's actually a heartiness thing that's been adapted
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: for school kids as well.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: We're looking at their perceived.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Stress, like does that drop over to twenty weeks, because
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: that would be pretty critical, you know, gratitude and life.
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: There are validated surveys.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: That I've used before in my research that we're using
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: and adapting and bringing extra ones in for kids because
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: we we then want to at the end of it
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: and get the results and go to the Victorian government
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: and they and other governments and say, hey, how about
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: we rule this right because we were talking about this
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: and and I voice my frustration to you often is
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: like I don't want my fucking kids coming home from
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: school knowing about another mental health condition.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: I want my kids language now medical language.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, because and and it's you know, this is
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: why I'm bold, because it makes me put my heir out.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Is that the research is showing that the more you
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: talk about emotions and feelings, the more people are likely
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: to identify with negative emotions and feelings.
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: And that's amplified for kids.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: And the more you talk about mental health labels and
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: what they like, the more they're likely to identify with
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: those labels.
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: So, and this is where the tension is, right, there's
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: been I don't want to bag it out completely.
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: I think I think that there used to be a
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: nuance view that.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: The mental health awareness stuff has been really really good
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: for lots of people who would never.
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: Have spoken out there now speaking out. But with anything,
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: there are.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Unintended consequences, and the unintended consequences are now starting to
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: become clear and clear. And this is not just my idea.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: This is research from Lucy Folks and others that show,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: and she's actually done a shittyper research on this that
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: the more you talk about it, the more they're likely
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: to identify with it, and especially teenagers and teenage girls,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: and because their development is social as well, so you know,
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: when they're in a group and a couple of people
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: have been diagnosed with anxiety, they want to align with
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: that and they actually want a disorder to be accepted,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: some of them, not everybody. But these are unintended consequences.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: And what's happening is that we're for a lot of kids.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: So some kids, great, it's been a shiap your for them,
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: for a lot of kids who are actually making their
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: mental health worsh Yeah.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's not about ignoring emotions or feelings. I
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: think there's this balance of and acceptance of who we
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: are as being human and normal responses to life challenges
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: and being able to make a room for that while
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: you turn your attention to your values to these four
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: seas and incorporate this in your life. And I think
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: the emotions and the feelings come with it. You know,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: it's not about just kind of squashing them down. We
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: have to accept it.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: As humans, we.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Feel a landscape of emotions, but we don't want them
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: to be dictating what we do.
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it comes back to Japanese psychology, you know,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: is about living a life of action, that that that's
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: driven by our values rather than a life that is
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: driven by our feelings and emotions.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: That's when we get into big trouble. Yeah.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we are going to finish it there.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: It's watch this space with the schools project and do you.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Look any teachers who are out there who might be
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: interested and you know, reach out to us because we
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: were doing this in Mornable College, and then we're going
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: to look to expand it. So any schools, any parents,
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: you know, flickless to teachers and let's let's get a
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: list of people who who might be our schools that
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: might be interested in this being rolled out to because
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I want my kids to have life skills.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm going to catch everyone on Monday
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: for my Joe Monday and you will be back for
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: your wisdom Wednesday.
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me, Dr Paul Taylor on the Paul
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: Tyler Podcast.
• 57:56
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me