Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #72 - Building a Referral-Driven Law Practice in the AI Era with Robert Hartmann

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#72 - Building a Referral-Driven Law Practice in the AI Era with Robert Hartmann · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

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  I think what these attorneys most fear and what most holds them
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  up is the fear
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  SPEAKER_01: that,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: gee,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to bring in any clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: I may be the greatest lawyer in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: I may think I'm the greatest lawyer in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to bring in any clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's ever taught me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nobody taught me in law school.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nobody at this law firm ever taught me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Tiffany Swedensky.
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  SPEAKER_00: Today we have with us Robert Hartman,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm going to go ahead and let Robert introduce himself.
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  He's publishing a book that's coming out this spring,
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  and he's excited to tell you all about it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for having me, Tiffany.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm Bob Hartman.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am an attorney.
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  I am a criminal defense certified criminal law specialist in
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  the state of California.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been practicing...
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  SPEAKER_01: Boy, since 1987, so I'm getting up there a little bit.
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  One of the things that has become of interest to me in the
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  latter part of my career
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  is networking and marketing and how I can help other attorneys
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  who are stuck in the
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  day-to-day grind of law firms they don't want to be at and a
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  little bit afraid to
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  SPEAKER_01: go out on their own.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested in trying to help them a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_01: figure out a way to get out on their own and make that happen.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I've got a book coming out in the beginning of March.
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  It's called Making It Rain,
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  The Art of Building a Successful Law Practice.
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  And I think that would be a great help to people thinking about
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  making the jump.
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  So did you write this book because you feel like your practice
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  was driven by
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  SPEAKER_00: networking and referrals?
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  SPEAKER_00: Or why did you choose this particular topic?
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  SPEAKER_01: The real interest started during COVID, actually.
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  SPEAKER_01: I got,
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  SPEAKER_01: for some reason,
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  dozens and dozens of emails and letters from attorneys who had
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  been laid off by
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  SPEAKER_01: bigger firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: And these are lawyers who've been around eight or nine or 10 years,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they're like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I need work.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm desperate.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to make a living.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can you send me some work?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, how is that possible?
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  And I thought about it and I sort of thought back to law school
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  where they don't
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  SPEAKER_01: teach you anything about marketing or networking.
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  And I thought a little bit about my own experience and how I
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  grew my practice from
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  essentially getting fired where I had 4,000 bucks in the bank
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  in 1987 to where it
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  SPEAKER_01: is now.
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  And I thought,
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  boy,
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  that might be interesting and it might be helpful for people.
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  So I got interested in putting the book together and we finally
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  got around to doing it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as far as networking goes,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: and you don't have to give away everything that's in your book,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I guess just like broad strokes,
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  like what are the three main takeaways that you want people to
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  get from reading it?
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think the number one thing is empathy of all things.
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  Empathy in terms of dealing with potential clients and
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  situations they're going
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  SPEAKER_01: through in their lives.
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  Empathy as it relates to dealing with other attorneys and not
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  being a jerk to them,
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  but being nice to them and polite to them because you never
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  know who may be a
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  SPEAKER_01: referral source.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's number one.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think number two is people should not be afraid to take the leap.
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  And the world of AI and with what AI is doing to law firms and
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  to young attorneys
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  SPEAKER_01: by taking away really a lot of the need for young attorneys,
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  SPEAKER_01: because you can do the research in 30 seconds now for 50 bucks with AI.
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  SPEAKER_01: You don't need an attorney to do it.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just think there is a bigger need out there for younger attorneys and
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  The only way they're going to make it and be successful and
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  make some money in
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  SPEAKER_01: their lives is go out on their own and be a sole proprietor.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think the last thing is that it's not scary.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not impossible to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to do.
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  The book has a checklist of the 25 different things you need to
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  do in order.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I just tend to think that the world is going to attorneys
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  SPEAKER_01: mostly becoming entrepreneurs on their own, not working in law firms.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's too much work.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a grind.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's no freedom.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then they're on their own.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  It's interesting how personally topical your book is and what
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  we're talking about
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  SPEAKER_00: is to my experiences recently.
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  SPEAKER_00: I actually just went to an AI event, like an AI conference last week.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I did a short talk and talking about how marketers could use AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I hope I emphasized well was that AI doesn't
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  SPEAKER_00: replace you because there's so much that it can't do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it can't, I mean, to be cliche, like it can't be human.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like it can't meet people.
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  SPEAKER_00: It can't go out in the world and learn about things.
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  SPEAKER_00: It can't attend events and discover new tools because it doesn't care.
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  SPEAKER_00: But you as a person, you care.
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  And you can go and just going out and doing the things and not
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  just sitting behind
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  SPEAKER_00: your computer,
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  SPEAKER_00: kind of AI has freed us up,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in my view to do more of what you're talking about networking,
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  SPEAKER_00: making real people and human connections.
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  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree with you more.
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  I think that one of the main benefits to me personally of
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  having AI do a lot of my
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  SPEAKER_01: research,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I check,
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  SPEAKER_01: is I have a lot more time.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so what do I do with that time?
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  SPEAKER_01: I go out and I network.
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  I go out and I market and it just helps me scale my firm a
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  little bit if that's
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  SPEAKER_01: what I want to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think the thing that
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  SPEAKER_01: you said that is really of interest to the listeners is something like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: when you're a young lawyer,
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  SPEAKER_01: two,
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  SPEAKER_01: three,
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  SPEAKER_01: four years into it,
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  SPEAKER_01: you get hired at a law firm.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know what they have you do?
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  SPEAKER_01: They just have you write briefs all day.
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  SPEAKER_01: They have you do legal research.
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  SPEAKER_01: They have you write a brief.
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  SPEAKER_01: They don't teach you anything about bringing in your own business.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so what AI does is...
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  there are certain legal research platforms that are fairly well
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  known out there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they have AI platforms now,
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  SPEAKER_01: a little bit expensive currently,
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  but you plug a question in there and you get 65 cases right on
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  point in about 30
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  SPEAKER_01: seconds,
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  SPEAKER_01: whereas it used to take you a couple hours to do that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now,
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  SPEAKER_01: I will tell you,
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  I have seen attorneys just cut and paste that into a brief and
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  get yelled at by a
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  SPEAKER_01: judge.
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  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to do that.
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  But what it does is it finds those cases for me so quickly,
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  I can do that work myself.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't need to hire a young associate.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like it's really,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you look at the law,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not going to replace you or I going into court.
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  SPEAKER_01: and advocating.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nothing's ever going to replace that.
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  Nothing's ever going to replace the human touch of signing up a
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  new client.
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  But what AI does is it makes the everyday grind of research so
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  much faster than
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  SPEAKER_01: it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: what do we do with that time?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I would just add, we don't need to have associates anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: So many associates.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  that's interesting because AI does kind of collapse the typical
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  like structure and
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  SPEAKER_00: hierarchy that we're all used to because,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in marketing,
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  SPEAKER_00: you start out as a junior marketer,
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  somebody who's doing a bit of everything and learning a bit of
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  everything.
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  And then you graduate into specialists and maybe like some
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  people stay specialists
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  SPEAKER_00: and then some people want to move up to,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_00: marketing leadership,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: How we ascend through that is changing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't necessarily think it's bad,
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  although as somebody who really cares about copywriting and
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  who's discerning when
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  SPEAKER_00: it comes to copywriting,
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  I do feel like the younger marketers are missing out on that
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  experience and
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  SPEAKER_00: learning how to write something that's good.
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  Because I've seen a lot of word salad of late that I have to
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  come in and rewrite.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  And so just to take it a little bit back to networking because
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  I talk too much about AI.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think like the bigger,
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  what do you think the biggest barriers are for like just your
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  normal person to go
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  SPEAKER_00: out and do networking?
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  Like what do you have to like coach people past to actually
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  like put themselves out there?
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  SPEAKER_00: I think.
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  For most people who are working in a law firm,
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  it gets really comfortable.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're making a certain amount of money.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's not a lot of pressure,
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  SPEAKER_01: unless you're a partner,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's not a lot of pressure to bring in any business.
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  SPEAKER_01: You show up, you work eight to five, and that's your job.
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  SPEAKER_01: You live in a nice house, you have a nice car, and that's it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you get really comfortable.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think most attorneys kind of fall into that
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  SPEAKER_01: Although what happens after six,
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  SPEAKER_01: seven,
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  SPEAKER_01: eight years of that is if the law firm decides,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're getting too much money,
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  SPEAKER_01: we can replace you with someone younger,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're up and that's too bad.
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  So I think what these attorneys most fear and what most holds
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  them up is the fear
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  SPEAKER_01: that,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: gee,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to bring in any clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: I may be the greatest lawyer in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: I may think I'm the greatest lawyer in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to bring in any clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's ever taught me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nobody taught me in law school.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nobody at this law firm ever taught me.
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  SPEAKER_01: They just want me to bill as many hours as I can.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
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  I'm getting tired of it because I'd like to go watch my kid's
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  baseball game at two
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  SPEAKER_01: o'clock on a Thursday.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nope, I gotta be here.
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  And so I think that's what I've noticed in talking with people
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  is the big hang up
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  SPEAKER_01: is I'm afraid to leave because I don't know how to bring in any business.
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  So as far as networking advice,
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  like what are you telling attorneys to do?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like once they've made that connection,
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  SPEAKER_00: like once they've shooken hands,
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  SPEAKER_00: made the introduction,
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  SPEAKER_00: met somebody in an event,
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  SPEAKER_00: like what comes next?
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a really great question.
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  I think that what comes next is follow-up and a sincere effort
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  to take an interest
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  SPEAKER_01: in that person's business.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's just say,
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  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
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  SPEAKER_01: that you and I meet at a marketing event and we go up to Starbucks,
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  SPEAKER_01: we have a cup of coffee,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we sit and talk for 30 minutes.
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  So during that time we're together,
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  we're always going to talk about you first.
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  because I want you to feel that I'm sincerely interested in
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  your business.
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  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about me a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_01: if that's what you'd like to do,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's really more about you in the initial talk,
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  SPEAKER_01: initial meeting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then what I would typically do is I would,
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  SPEAKER_01: once we're done and we finish our coffee and we go about our way,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would send you a follow-up email or letter
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  SPEAKER_01: Nice to meet you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Would love to get to know you even more.
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  Would love to get together with you again if you'd like to do
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  that and love to talk more.
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  And so then there's a second meeting and now they really,
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  really want to know more about you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then things get really get going.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: for me,
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  SPEAKER_00: cause I'm not sure I'm good at networking now,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I know I definitely wasn't the best at it in the past.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was always tough for me,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess meeting people and talking with people is like realizing,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're almost as scared as you are of them.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how much that helps people,
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  SPEAKER_00: but like,
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  I guess I approach these things and I imagine it must be that
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  way for young
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  SPEAKER_00: associates.
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  You kind of approach these relationships with a bit of an
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  inferiority complex.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's just me.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
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  Can you imagine if you're a young associate and you're thinking
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  about going out on
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  SPEAKER_01: your own and you've got to talk to someone 20,
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  SPEAKER_01: 30 years older?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's absolutely terrifying, but it doesn't need to be.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it really isn't.
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  Well,
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  and not to change the subject really abruptly,
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  but you're an attorney in California.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm curious to get your perspective.
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  I'm aware that California made some pretty like hard rules when
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  it comes to
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  SPEAKER_00: marketing and soliciting in the state.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, can you tell me a little bit about that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Are you making any adjustments because of it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: When I began practicing back in 1987,
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  SPEAKER_01: there were really severe restrictions on a lawyer's ability to solicit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I use the word solicit.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it just limited you in terms of,
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  you couldn't do certain kinds of television ads where you see
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  people getting auto
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  SPEAKER_01: accidents,
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  SPEAKER_01: like we see billboards and things like that.
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  SPEAKER_01: A lot of those things...
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  SPEAKER_01: either were not allowed back in the 80s and 90s,
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  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
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  SPEAKER_01: or were really much more restricted than they are now.
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  SPEAKER_01: What I would say,
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  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
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  SPEAKER_01: is over the last 20 to 25 years,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's actually gotten a lot looser,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is surprising.
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  SPEAKER_01: You see these advertisements on television
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  SPEAKER_01: And to me,
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  SPEAKER_01: they come very close to guaranteeing certain results,
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  SPEAKER_01: which you're not supposed to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: But they're right in your face.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're soliciting you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there seems to me to be very little restriction.
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  SPEAKER_01: As far as I'm concerned,
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  SPEAKER_01: really the only restrictions on attorneys now,
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  SPEAKER_01: when it comes to soliciting,
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  SPEAKER_01: are you can't make a guarantee.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's really it.
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  I can't think off the top of my head of in any other way,
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  are you restricted anymore?
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  SPEAKER_01: You can write a book.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can have a newsletter.
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  You can send a mass marketing in the mail to every resident of
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  Orange County,
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  California.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think the state bar is concerned in the least.
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  It's interesting to think about because some people,
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  they see rules as like,
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  SPEAKER_00: limitations.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then like other people,
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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  kind of see the rules as just things you have to overcome or
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  problems that have to
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  SPEAKER_00: be solved.
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  And I don't know when,
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  when the door is closed,
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  a window is open or something like that.
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  So,
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  I mean,
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  you just look for new opportunities and you're very much right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I never thought about it like that,
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  but lawyer advertising has gone through this weird arc from
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  what I understand,
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  SPEAKER_00: where you used to be able to not do it at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then you could,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just had this curve where it was really restrictive.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then it seemed like with the digital marketing era,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: like really 2000s through basically today,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: it got a lot looser.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And with digital marketing, I feel like
• 15:03
  It just created so much opportunity that it was hard for like
• 15:08
  bar associations or
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: state associations to really adapt and restrict.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because even today,
• 15:13
  like we're doing stuff like sharing data with Facebook about
• 15:17
  which leads convert or
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: which don't convert.
• 15:20
  And we're doing that to hopes to get more information or better
• 15:23
  leads from Facebook.
• 15:26
  And I don't feel like there's ever been kind of a legal
• 15:29
  advertising rule that has
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: ever touched that in that more sophisticated digital marketing stuff.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it is interesting to think about.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought of it that way.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're right.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 15:38
  I know attorneys who spend a fortune every month on what you
• 15:43
  just talked about,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook and different things like that,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: and looking at the metrics and different things like that.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, they design...
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: solicitations that get into your inbox.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it just gets right to you.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's right on point.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely a solicitation.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you get in an accident, call us.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to call anybody else.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, you're right.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big change.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: that always cracks me up,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: about this stuff is when's the last time you went to Las Vegas?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like the one and only time I went to Vegas was like,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: like six months ago or something like that.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, fair enough.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have this, I go fairly often.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I handle cases there fairly often.
• 16:26
  And one of the things you notice when you're driving in on the
• 16:29
  freeway is there's
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: dozens of billboards for personal injury lawyers.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just dozens of them.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they're all different law firms.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then you keep driving and they keep repeating.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's just tons of them.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it occurred to me, Las Vegas isn't that big a city.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can there possibly be this many auto accidents?
• 16:47
  But that's what I'm saying is it's right in your face and
• 16:51
  nobody makes any bones about it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you see these billboards make, I've got $7.5 million.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: If that's not a direct solicitation, I don't know what is.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've seen this graph somewhere.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have a bunch of marketing textbooks behind me,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: not because I'm showing off,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: but literally I just have nowhere else to put them.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point in school,
• 17:13
  I remember seeing a graph where it basically laid out like how
• 17:18
  people learned about
• 17:19
  you and how that correlated with how much they could recall or
• 17:23
  remember you.
• 17:25
  and the lighter mass media it has like when it's repeated often
• 17:31
  and when you see
• 17:31
  the ads often it builds over time but just like one tv ad or
• 17:36
  one billboard doesn't
• 17:38
  help you like stick in somebody's memory you know unless
• 17:41
  there's repetition
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: But when you go up that hierarchy,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: it gets to,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: when you get closer to the top,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: it's like phone,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: and then maybe stuff like Zoom,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: although I think this book predated Zoom.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally,
• 17:55
  the best avenue to get somebody to remember you is meeting them
• 17:59
  in person and
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: talking with them in person.
• 18:02
  And,
• 18:03
  you know,
• 18:03
  so that's why networking becomes like this powerful marketing
• 18:07
  tool that can
• 18:09
  in some respects outperforming billboard because you can buy
• 18:12
  one billboard on a
• 18:13
  highway and a bunch of people see it once and it not do very
• 18:17
  much for you but you
• 18:18
  can you know meet a bunch of people and develop all these
• 18:22
  relationships that become
• 18:23
  referrals that become referrals i don't know i can't think of
• 18:27
  anything else at the
• 18:28
  end of my list and i don't know if people think of it like that
• 18:32
  but it's it's
• 18:33
  certainly something to keep in mind when we're talking about
• 18:36
  like how sticky
• 18:37
  Like,
• 18:38
  how much do people remember you off the interaction that
• 18:40
  they've had with you?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to tell you a funny story here.
• 18:44
  Back in the 90s,
• 18:47
  there's a really famous sports talk radio guy who's on across
• 18:52
  the country.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Really famous guy.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: He started in Southern California.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was back in the 90s,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I listened to this all sports radio station every day.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, boy, you know what?
• 19:07
  I'll bet you there's a lot of potential DUI cases I could get
• 19:10
  on an all sports radio station.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking this, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I contacted them and I said,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I go,
• 19:16
  how much did you get this superstar personality to record my 30
• 19:21
  second spot for me?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And back then it was only $200.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I remember meeting this fellow in this place in Santa Monica,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: and we came up with this catchy 30-second spot,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Bob Hartman DUIs,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: da-da-da-da-da.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I had it on primetime.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I had it on mornings and middle, whatever.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Guess how many cases I got from that ad at the end of the first year?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure I can speculate because it's one of those like, okay, I'm
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: 25.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just threw out a number.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Two.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Two?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Two.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, they were terrible.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they weren't even cases you'd want to take.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: They were, hey, I got a DUI.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just looking for the least expensive attorney.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: You do DUIs.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, do you drink your... I'm like, what?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: These were the two ads I got from a year of doing this.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then needless to say, that stopped.
• 20:19
  But going back to your earlier point,
• 20:21
  Tiffany,
• 20:22
  relationship marketing is where it's all at.
• 20:25
  And so that's really part of the thesis of the book is that
• 20:30
  what all attorneys need to do
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: as part of their everyday life when they go out on their own,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: is to make relationship marketing,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: networking a part of their everyday existence.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's meeting someone and following up,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: you can't depend on radio,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: billboards,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: da-da-da-da-da.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just for me, it didn't work.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's tricky when it comes to mass media and marketing.
• 21:01
  And I don't even know,
• 21:02
  I can't even speculate what the economics were back in the 90s.
• 21:06
  I have a dog crashing my podcast by deciding to get up in the
• 21:10
  middle of it.
• 21:11
  But I don't know,
• 21:12
  mass media works,
• 21:13
  but I can easily see a million different
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: cases where it just absolutely doesn't.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's like,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: I live kind of way out in the country and there's a single,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't even call it a billboard.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a quarter, not even a quarter, the size of a regular billboard.
• 21:29
  And it's out here next to the gas station and it's for a gal
• 21:34
  who sells real estate.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I can easily see that being a huge shed.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she probably paid for it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably cheap and she probably has it for like five years.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, is she going to get calls from it?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: she probably knows people who refer her clients,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: and that's how a lot of people,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: make money.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: somebody who I talk about kind of fairly frequently,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: and I wonder if he knows,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about him,
• 22:00
  but there's an attorney in Alabama who most of his cases come
• 22:06
  from referrals and
• 22:08
  These are people who know him,
• 22:10
  but people who primarily keep in touch with them from Facebook.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's like a little local celebrity Facebook guy.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's just going back to relationships.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask you this.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if somebody's asked you,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: but what would you tell somebody who's just like,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like networking.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an introvert.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's hard for me.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: What advice would you give them?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that person was really me until the day I got fired.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: and I really had no choice.
• 22:41
  My story a little bit is,
• 22:42
  I think it was back in the early 90s,
• 22:44
  I got fired,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: My law firm had some contract with the county.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: The county went banked.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, no more cases.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to let all the attorneys go.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: $4,000 in the bank.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I was sort of the guy who you just described, Tiffany.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love sitting in my office.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really like talking to people that much.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a natural thing to do.
• 23:05
  We all have friends,
• 23:07
  but that's different than relationship networking,
• 23:09
  right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: when I said to myself,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: uh-oh,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to pay my car next month and my mortgage next month,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to figure this out.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so once I went to my first networking meeting,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think you said this earlier,
• 23:24
  I was around other people who didn't really enjoy it either or
• 23:27
  didn't really know
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: how to do it well.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: They were just as nervous as me the first time.
• 23:32
  And so once I kind of relaxed about it and just started taking
• 23:36
  it more naturally and just
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: talking,
• 23:39
  not creating a script and taking a genuine interest in what
• 23:44
  other people did and
• 23:45
  how I could help them and how I could make them look good to
• 23:51
  people who they
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: referred to me.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Once I kind of started doing that,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: it honestly became like second,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: second,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: just every day I do it.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't even think about it anymore.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I get you, it's hard at the start.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: and for me,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: I spend most of my time here in my office,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I actually making an effort to get out more and do more events.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I would say I'm kind of introverted.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love talking to people.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what people kind of underestimate is when you get out and...
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: network, talk to people, talk about their other businesses.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: It can be energizing too, because you're learning about their problems.
• 24:34
  And I think learning that they're not so different from what
• 24:36
  you're going through.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: like somebody who doesn't love,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: going out and socializing,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I still come away feeling like
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Some solidarity, some sense of relief.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, oh, I'm just like them.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's nice.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, that's how I at least motivate myself to get out.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting what you said there,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: because I feel the same as you do when it's a one-time networking event.
• 25:01
  You know,
• 25:01
  it's a one-time thing and I go and I meet someone and I follow
• 25:05
  up with them.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 25:06
  A lot of the things I'm talking about too are networking groups
• 25:11
  where you meet
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: either weekly or monthly.
• 25:14
  And those are different than what we're talking about because
• 25:17
  when you go to a
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: group weekly and you meet,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: you sort of see the same 40 people
• 25:23
  every week plus guests come in or you go once a month and you
• 25:27
  see the same 60
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: people and you meet with them outside the group.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: The repetitiveness of it,
• 25:34
  the fact that you take time to go have a coffee with every
• 25:37
  member of that group
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: over a year,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes much more than marketing.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes almost social.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I will just tell you,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: in my world,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: probably where I have my office,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I subleased from a guy I met at a networking meeting.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: He had a bunch of space and I wanted to move and I subleased from him.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I travel all over the world with people I've met in my networking group.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's become much more than that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I mean.
• 26:09
  The degree with which you become familiar with their problems
• 26:13
  and with what you can
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: do to help them,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: it just becomes so much more than just business.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Ashley,
• 26:21
  that's something I've been saying to myself for quite a while
• 26:24
  is I need to get into
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: kind of a mastermind group or a weekly networking group.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I've participated kind of loosely in a few over the years.
• 26:34
  And you said weekly,
• 26:35
  do you have like a weekly networking group you meet with?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it monthly?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or what frequency are you kind of doing something like that?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm in two networking groups.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: One of them meets weekly.
• 26:48
  And as part of that,
• 26:49
  I will normally meet with members of it or...
• 26:53
  So let me take a step back.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: This group that meets weekly, I'm in a chapter.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: There are probably 60 or 70 chapters in my part of the state.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So not only do I meet with people in my own group,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I go out and meet with people in other groups of the same organization.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And by doing that, I've just created an amazing amount of contacts.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now the other group is monthly.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same basic theory.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's run a little bit differently, but it's the same theory.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 27:24
  what I do is I make an effort to meet just not only the people
• 27:27
  in my group,
• 27:28
  but I go out and meet the people in all the other attorneys and
• 27:32
  some of the other
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: groups around the area.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to, again, Las Vegas in a couple of weeks.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go to a networking meeting when I'm there.
• 27:41
  It's not just to save money on my trip on taxes and make up a
• 27:45
  tax write-off.
• 27:46
  It's because I'm really interested because I do federal work in
• 27:49
  Las Vegas.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I know if I meet a bunch of the attorneys out there,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: it creates an opportunity not only for me to help them,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: but for them to help me.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a sort of gifting strategy?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you make that a part of what you do or is it just in person?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Gifting in the sense of...
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: When somebody refers you business?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:13
  When somebody refers you business or do you send periodic gifts
• 28:16
  to people like or
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: anything like that?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So attorneys are really regulated by the state bar in terms of gifting.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: If another attorney refers you business,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: you can actually pay them something called a referral fee.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say attorney Jim refers a case to me.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'll normally have a conversation with Jim and I'll say,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Jim,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: our firm offers referral fees in accordance with the rules.
• 28:46
  And the rules are you have to disclose it to your client and
• 28:48
  let them know how much.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: We do this,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: or if you prefer,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to send you anything,
• 28:56
  or I just occasionally will send you a great night out for you
• 28:58
  and your wife,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: whatever you like.
• 29:00
  And it's amazing how many attorneys will say,
• 29:02
  I'd like to get some money back from it.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's capped at a certain percentage, you can pay whatever you want.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, referral fees are kind of governed by the state borrower.
• 29:12
  You can only pay those though to other attorneys under certain
• 29:16
  situations.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Other gifts,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: if someone refers me a case who's a winemaker or just a friend,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: typically what I'll do is at the end of the year around Christmas,
• 29:27
  I'll send them a gift certificate so they can take their spouse
• 29:30
  out to a really
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: great dinner.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, whatever it is, but I generally thank people.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And even though they'll tell me you don't need to send me something,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just do because I think it's a nice thing to do.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's memorable and they really help me.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to show my appreciation.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 29:48
  this came up because I was helping one of my clients pick out a
• 29:51
  gift for another
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: attorney.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why that's always so hard for me,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: but some,
• 29:57
  some of my clients will do what you described where we'll send
• 30:00
  like Christmas
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: gifts.
• 30:02
  Others will specifically not send Christmas gifts and try to
• 30:05
  send it on another
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: holiday,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: like Thanksgiving or sometime in February,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: just to make it a little less predictable,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:13
  And something I'd like to get more systematic about is sending
• 30:17
  out gifts where
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: we're personalizing it with the law firm,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: their law firm's logo,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: not ours.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've heard of that so many times.
• 30:25
  And I just honestly just it's so hard to spin up a program that
• 30:28
  can do that kind of
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: automatically because you have to find a logo anyway.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I was asking.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why just picking out mass gifts is always so hard.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: What always comes to my mind is Bluetooth speakers.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Those are always great.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know what it is?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that just shows your appreciation.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's all it is.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be something smaller, something larger, whatever.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Something I do,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: along the lines of what you just said,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: is I make it a point for my best referral sources to touch them properly.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: every 90 days or so,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: not necessarily with a gift,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: a phone call,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: an email,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: how's everybody in the family doing,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't outsource it to someone else in my office.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: I do it because it's personal.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: a gift,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: a text,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: an email,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: as long as you're touching them every so often,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: that's perfect.
• 31:21
  Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I need to get better about that.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so bad about text messages.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have like five people that I text and then like,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: then I never text my brother cause he's a butt.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 31:33
  So you tell me a little bit about how you decided to or your
• 31:38
  process for creating
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: your book,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: because I know of a few,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: like I know somebody who will ghostwrite and do the book for you,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: you just basically talk to them.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did you do something like that?
• 31:49
  Or did you take like a another route to getting your book
• 31:52
  written and published?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think I did something like that.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with a very, very wonderful person.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was simply,
• 32:00
  it was like being interviewed 15 times and being recorded and
• 32:05
  asked a variety of
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: questions that she thought of that would be of interest to people.
• 32:10
  And so we did that a bunch of times and then that gets reduced
• 32:14
  to a manuscript and
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: then that gets reduced to a book.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's basically how we did it.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And how long did that take you?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, boy.
• 32:26
  I would say we've been working on it probably,
• 32:30
  the book is going to be published in early March.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say we've been working on it for about six months up to now.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's not bad for a book,
• 32:38
  says somebody who's been working on a novel for probably the
• 32:40
  last 10 years.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: But trust me, that's not a good one, I'm sure.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, six months to publish a book really isn't that bad.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: it is a long time,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: but like marketing projects like that can sometimes take a long time.
• 32:54
  Is the person who helped you write it,
• 32:56
  are they like publishing it for you?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are you self-publishing?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Did you find a publisher?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how'd you do that part of it?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: She handles everything.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know whether it's me published.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I don't even know.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know that it's going to be in bookstores.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be, there's going to be a hardback, a softback.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: whatever all that means,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I assume it's,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a publishing company,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: but not a hundred percent sure.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and what plans have you made for promoting it?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're talking about it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're here on this podcast, but what else are you doing?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So other attorneys can find out about it.
• 33:30
  I think what we're going to do is we're going to do some
• 33:33
  podcasts and then we're
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: going to do some email things.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this is sort of like speaking French for me.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've never done this before.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm counting on other people to interpret for me.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to do some sort of email thing.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing podcast thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to have a big party when the book comes out.
• 33:52
  And just on every platform possible,
• 33:55
  we're going to get it out there that we're doing this.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are you like, I don't, I need to check to see, but are you on LinkedIn?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Have you been posting on LinkedIn about this?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: That would be a great place for that, honestly.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on LinkedIn and yeah,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: and we have a,
• 34:10
  it's really interesting because I've been on LinkedIn forever
• 34:12
  and we have a great
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: blog.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: We do blogs about criminal law.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been doing those for years and years and years.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting with the book coming out,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: the blogs are not so much now about what are the elements of robbery.
• 34:27
  Some of the more recent blogs are about networking and they're
• 34:30
  leading up to the
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: book coming out.
• 34:33
  And we're going to add some things to the website and do some
• 34:35
  things like that too.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:38
  I imagine,
• 34:39
  I mean,
• 34:39
  honestly,
• 34:41
  LinkedIn was practically built for that exact kind of advice.
• 34:44
  So I'm sure it's reaching probably a little bit more people
• 34:48
  than the criminal FAQ content.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many criminals go on LinkedIn.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm surprised, I suspect.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I guess so, yeah.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're white collar crime, you gotta be on LinkedIn.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I really appreciate you having you on the podcast.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Was there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get to?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think we talked about everything.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I really want to thank you for having me on your show.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it very much.
• 35:15
  And we mentioned a few things already,
• 35:16
  but where do you want people to look you up?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we mentioned you.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's the title of your book?
• 35:21
  The title of my book is Making It Rain,
• 35:24
  The Art of Building a Successful Law Firm.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where to find me?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Just the best place to find me is probably my website,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: which is open,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: but going through some renovations.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hartman Law Firm, H-A-R-T-M-A-N-N lawfirm.net.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much again for being on the show with me today.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see everyone next time.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Tiffany.