Latest / Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin / How to stop being a people pleaser #10

Transcript

How to stop being a people pleaser #10 · Free Therapy with Ben & Kevin

0:00
Speaker 1: The world's free therapy sop keV. Well, what's up, Benny,
0:03
Speaker 1: how you doing? Welcome to Free Therapy.
0:05
Speaker 2: I'm excited for everyone to hear this episode for me too.
0:08
Speaker 2: Tell everyone what the podcast is in case there are
0:10
Speaker 2: some first time listenings.
0:11
Speaker 3: So every week Ben and I sit down with amazing
0:15
Speaker 3: therapists and we talk about all the shit that guys
0:17
Speaker 3: are going through, but nobody says.
0:18
Speaker 1: Out loud and Benny.
0:22
Speaker 3: This week is very personal, is very personal. We brought
0:26
Speaker 3: in my former therapist, Kuros Rassav and Ben knows this.
0:30
Speaker 1: This guy changed my life. Ben has heard about this
0:33
Speaker 1: guy for years.
0:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was nice to meet him.
0:35
Speaker 3: Conversation after conversation after therapy session. In my twenties, my
0:40
Speaker 3: people pleasing was pretty much sabotaging every relationship and many
0:45
Speaker 3: of my friendships too, and Kurosh finally helped me break
0:48
Speaker 3: that pattern. He taught me how to stop subjugating my needs,
0:52
Speaker 3: how to stop being so scared of conflict, and maybe
0:55
Speaker 3: the biggest one was how to finally have the hard
0:58
Speaker 3: conversations I would always avoid.
1:00
Speaker 4: I feel like so many people can relate to this man.
1:03
Speaker 1: It was a NonStop batter.
1:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in the episode, we get into where all
1:08
Speaker 3: that comes from, why saying no often feels so hard,
1:13
Speaker 3: and the actual tools that Kurosh taught me to make
1:15
Speaker 3: those hard conversations easier.
1:17
Speaker 2: So if you're someone who's constantly people pleasing and avoiding
1:20
Speaker 2: conflict and you really can't figure out why this episode's
1:23
Speaker 2: gonna hit hard for you, I know it did for
1:25
Speaker 2: me and learning all the tools that keV learned really
1:27
Speaker 2: helped me. And look, by the way, if you've been
1:30
Speaker 2: listening to these episodes and you're enjoying them, let us know.
1:33
Speaker 2: We've been getting a ton of dms. The feedback's been
1:36
Speaker 2: amazing and we want more of it. Absolutely Yeah, So
1:38
Speaker 2: after this episode, let us know what you think, and
1:40
Speaker 2: we hope you enjoy it.
1:42
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Khrush, thanks for coming today.
2:05
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
2:06
Speaker 1: Kevin. I'm so glad to have you here.
2:08
Speaker 4: I'm so glad to have you here.
2:11
Speaker 3: Kurosh is an amazing psychotherapist and specialized in addiction, maraging,
2:18
Speaker 3: and family therapy and recovery. But most importantly, you were
2:22
Speaker 3: my therapist for four years yea, and in those.
2:28
Speaker 1: Four years you really gave me the tools.
2:30
Speaker 3: To transform my life in ways that I had been
2:35
Speaker 3: held back for a long time, and our work was
2:41
Speaker 3: around a couple big topics and a couple of big
2:46
Speaker 3: challenges that I was dealing with that we worked through it.
2:48
Speaker 3: At a certain point in my life in my childhood,
2:51
Speaker 3: I started to learn how to people please to get
2:55
Speaker 3: love and acceptance, and that became a pattern that that
3:00
Speaker 3: while I assume it was something that I was doing
3:03
Speaker 3: to help me, actually became a really big burden on
3:06
Speaker 3: me and created a lot of conflict in my life
3:10
Speaker 3: and a lot of resentment and a lot of pain,
3:13
Speaker 3: ruined a relationship after a relationship, and then almost like
3:17
Speaker 3: ruined one of my closest friendships, and sort of I
3:21
Speaker 3: think people pleasing I see as maybe like the thing
3:24
Speaker 3: that the label that we put on it, but really
3:27
Speaker 3: how it shows up is in like conflict avoidance. And
3:31
Speaker 3: I think we've talked about this a lot on the show.
3:33
Speaker 3: Is this idea that I had before working with you
3:37
Speaker 3: that I had to just keep the peace and avoid
3:40
Speaker 3: conflict at all costs, and that was what would be
3:42
Speaker 3: me being a good friend, a good partner, a good
3:46
Speaker 3: family member, Like creating peace and the environments that I'm
3:50
Speaker 3: in and really avoiding hard conversations as a result of that.
3:55
Speaker 3: So that's what I want to talk about today. I
3:58
Speaker 3: want to go into all all really we'll talk about
4:03
Speaker 3: about my journey, but also just about the journey of
4:05
Speaker 3: someone else in that position, maybe someone that's just beginning
4:07
Speaker 3: that journey of realizing they are avoiding hard conversations, avoiding conflicts,
4:12
Speaker 3: people pleasing, giving up their needs, suppressing their needs to
4:15
Speaker 3: make other people around them happy. Like, that's what I
4:17
Speaker 3: really really want to just explore. So hopefully that person
4:21
Speaker 3: that maybe is doing that, maybe not aware that they're
4:23
Speaker 3: doing it, or aware or on that journey, we can
4:26
Speaker 3: give them some tools and perspective.
4:29
Speaker 5: Yeah, amazing. First of all, glad, what a privilege to
4:33
Speaker 5: get to do what I do. A privileged to get
4:35
Speaker 5: to do that with you, And I'm really heartened that
4:38
Speaker 5: our work has been meaningful to you. I think maybe
4:41
Speaker 5: to try to provide the perspective that I offer for
4:45
Speaker 5: those that might be listening that are like, oh, I
4:48
Speaker 5: do that, or maybe I think I do that. My
4:51
Speaker 5: work is really rooted in this idea that we are
4:55
Speaker 5: not malfunctioning. Wh I really kind of push back. I'm
4:58
Speaker 5: a big fan of all of the systems and all
5:01
Speaker 5: of the research that we have that allow us to
5:04
Speaker 5: understand human behavior, to be able to categorize and to
5:07
Speaker 5: differentiate between different ways of being. But in terms of
5:12
Speaker 5: translating that into working with humans, I find that this
5:16
Speaker 5: notion of pathology is more limiting than it is helping.
5:20
Speaker 5: And you sort of touched on it. You touched on
5:22
Speaker 5: it in terms of you know, when I was a kid,
5:25
Speaker 5: I learned, and then the core of what you're speaking
5:28
Speaker 5: to is learning to get priority needs requires me to
5:35
Speaker 5: subjugate or put aside my authentic expression. And when this
5:42
Speaker 5: is a core element of our being, then of course
5:47
Speaker 5: it's going to continue to show up. One level deeper
5:51
Speaker 5: than that has to do with a sense of safety.
5:53
Speaker 5: On safety when it is not okay to be us
5:57
Speaker 5: doesn't always have to include violence, but it can, or neglect,
6:00
Speaker 5: but it can. It could just be coming into a world,
6:04
Speaker 5: in a family and an environment of loving present, well meaning,
6:08
Speaker 5: well intentioned family members who are also at least in
6:12
Speaker 5: this society of ours Southern California and North America, et cetera,
6:16
Speaker 5: suggesting this is who you're supposed to be, right, And
6:19
Speaker 5: so we learn and we make those adaptations, and those
6:21
Speaker 5: things live inside of us. Those things live inside of
6:24
Speaker 5: us because of all that is right with us. We
6:27
Speaker 5: are supposed to learn, adapt, grow, and then we find
6:33
Speaker 5: ourselves later in life going I always want to do
6:37
Speaker 5: that exactly right. Yeah, And to some extent that struggle
6:43
Speaker 5: is a meaningful experience. It's a part of the inner
6:46
Speaker 5: landscape that says, I don't know if what lives inside
6:50
Speaker 5: of me is necessary anymore. Maybe I'm not as vulnerable
6:55
Speaker 5: as I was. Maybe it's okay for me to have me.
7:00
Speaker 5: Maybe it's okay for me, and on and on. Maybe
7:03
Speaker 5: I can survive a fight, right, conflict avoidant? Why would
7:07
Speaker 5: we avoid a conflict?
7:08
Speaker 1: Yeah?
7:09
Speaker 5: Fight, fight, there it is flight freeze please, Right, These
7:13
Speaker 5: are really the only ways we respond to threat.
7:17
Speaker 3: Why is it so hard to express your needs in
7:23
Speaker 3: that kind of environment, growing up that kind of environment,
7:26
Speaker 3: and then as an adult, Because from my perspective, it's
7:30
Speaker 3: really interesting. It feels like there are two types of people.
7:35
Speaker 3: This is a really simplified right. It feels like there's
7:38
Speaker 3: me who is really careful and was really always careful
7:42
Speaker 3: about like I'm being sensitive to your what's happening with
7:45
Speaker 3: you and you and making sure that everyone's happy and
7:49
Speaker 3: really just hyper sensitive and careful. And there's a lot
7:53
Speaker 3: of other people who are just sort of going through
7:56
Speaker 3: life without thinking about it. They're just they're just living
8:01
Speaker 3: and they're getting They're saying exactly what they need, they're
8:03
Speaker 3: getting their needs met. Why is it so hard for
8:05
Speaker 3: the first group, I'm sure a lot of people led
8:07
Speaker 3: to that, like, why is it so hard to express
8:08
Speaker 3: your needs?
8:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that that's sort of it's the thing that
8:11
Speaker 5: lives inside of us. So what is it that would
8:14
Speaker 5: limit a reasonable, rational, perfectly what organized human being to
8:19
Speaker 5: express their needs, ask for help, be themselves, not subjugate
8:24
Speaker 5: their needs for somebody else. Well, it has to be
8:26
Speaker 5: some expected consequence, right, why would I do that? Well,
8:32
Speaker 5: fear of rejection? What would have to live underneath the
8:35
Speaker 5: fear of rejection? A certain belief system that says I
8:38
Speaker 5: am rejectable. Right, there's some core elements that are very
8:42
Speaker 5: consistently present and the folks that I've had the privilege
8:46
Speaker 5: of working with and also in the literature, right, this
8:49
Speaker 5: core sense of do I belong or do I not belong? Right?
8:54
Speaker 5: Do I have to earn my belonging? Am I lovable
8:58
Speaker 5: or am I lovable? For what I can do or
9:00
Speaker 5: provide am I worthy or am I worthy? Based on
9:04
Speaker 5: my performance? These core elements that can be deeply rooted
9:10
Speaker 5: then inform all of the ways that we move around
9:13
Speaker 5: the world. For me, if I'm sitting with you and
9:17
Speaker 5: you're sitting there and you want something and you want
9:19
Speaker 5: to go to a restaurant, and you're like, I want
9:21
Speaker 5: to go here, and Ben's like, well, I want to
9:23
Speaker 5: go to that restaurant. You go, no, no, but I
9:24
Speaker 5: want this, and I'm over here saying, you know, I
9:26
Speaker 5: like everything. Whatever you two decide, that might be an expression.
9:31
Speaker 5: It might be my authenticity. I might really not care, right,
9:34
Speaker 5: but it might also be a part of me that says,
9:36
Speaker 5: don't even have a need. Whatever they want is okay
9:39
Speaker 5: by you, because if I speak up, then you will
9:44
Speaker 5: not be my friend, right, I will be rejected. I
9:47
Speaker 5: will be abandoned.
9:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, you led to this stuff totally.
9:51
Speaker 2: What resonated so much is like that fear of rejection.
9:55
Speaker 2: I especially don't want to upset somebody because if they're
9:59
Speaker 2: upset with me me, what does that mean about me?
10:02
Speaker 2: And that feeling of if somebody is upset with me
10:05
Speaker 2: is almost unbearable, Like I almost can't tolerate that discomfort.
10:11
Speaker 2: And then I realized that it's so hard to sit
10:16
Speaker 2: with the discomfort. But I think it's even harder to
10:19
Speaker 2: do something you don't want to do over and over again,
10:22
Speaker 2: because then I end up resenting the person because I
10:24
Speaker 2: keep being unhappy in that situation. I still have a
10:28
Speaker 2: hard time saying no or speaking my needs every time,
10:31
Speaker 2: even with you, even when he's like, let's do it
10:35
Speaker 2: this way for the for an episode, even and I'm
10:37
Speaker 2: like okay, and deep down I'm like, oh, you should
10:41
Speaker 2: have just been a little more honest, but I don't know.
10:44
Speaker 3: I'm the same fucking way.
10:45
Speaker 4: Yeah.
10:46
Speaker 3: Well, like today is a great example.
10:48
Speaker 1: I was running late, of course, but.
10:53
Speaker 2: Is he was he late to appointments just honestly, he
11:00
Speaker 2: has confidential.
11:04
Speaker 3: So late, but but today it was just there's a
11:09
Speaker 3: lot going on, and I want I've set up the room,
11:14
Speaker 3: and you've had things because you've had things to do, yes,
11:16
Speaker 3: And I was like, I should ask him to set
11:19
Speaker 3: up the room today so that I can get my
11:21
Speaker 3: stuff done, so I can be prepped, and I was
11:24
Speaker 3: I hesitated to. I did it, but I hesitated to
11:27
Speaker 3: And how stupid is that that? I feel like I
11:31
Speaker 3: can't task the guy I'm doing this with first of all,
11:34
Speaker 3: like I'm contributing equally, but I still feel bad being like,
11:39
Speaker 3: can you set up today?
11:40
Speaker 6: I felt the same thing this morning because when I
11:44
Speaker 6: asked you to review the podcast from last week today,
11:50
Speaker 6: I was like, is he going to be upset if
11:52
Speaker 6: I ask him to listen to it? No?
11:55
Speaker 1: Just it's so funny.
11:58
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, first of all, I'm gonna have to build
12:02
Speaker 5: for this conversation.
12:04
Speaker 1: Doing therapy for the host today.
12:06
Speaker 5: You know, so this morning, if I heard you correctly, right,
12:10
Speaker 5: you're running late, and you you typically like to come
12:14
Speaker 5: and set up as part of maybe your agreement or
12:17
Speaker 5: just pattern whatever it is, and you can't, And so
12:20
Speaker 5: there's a thought that comes in that says, maybe I'll
12:22
Speaker 5: ask Ben, and then if I heard you correctly and
12:25
Speaker 5: if I'm remembering accurately, the next thought was, oh no,
12:29
Speaker 5: or something like that. What was your actual thought.
12:32
Speaker 3: That was, Ben's gonna be thisat that I'm late? We
12:37
Speaker 3: usually set up together, and I should just figure it
12:43
Speaker 3: out and get there quicker.
12:44
Speaker 5: Okay, great, that seems to me like a reasonable thoughtful
12:51
Speaker 5: line of thought, right, Yes, and you're recognizing this not
12:55
Speaker 5: just as oh, I wonder what the impact of me
12:58
Speaker 5: being late is on Ben. That something that's a pattern,
13:01
Speaker 5: It's a this fear something.
13:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, the fears that Ben would be upset. There isn't
13:09
Speaker 3: necessarily a pattern that I'm late for episodes. I feel
13:11
Speaker 3: like I actually I'm probably setting up as much as
13:13
Speaker 3: if not more, But the fears that has been would
13:16
Speaker 3: be upset that I'm behind, And what if he is.
13:24
Speaker 5: Logically it's okay, not logically in yourself, I get it.
13:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, what I'm saying to myself is that our dynamic
13:33
Speaker 3: will be impacted negatively, which is immediately important because we
13:37
Speaker 3: have a conversation that we're going.
13:39
Speaker 1: To be recording.
13:40
Speaker 3: So, like your energy, Ben is super important to the
13:43
Speaker 3: energy of the show. So Ben's in a bad energetic state,
13:47
Speaker 3: the whole episode changes, and so I'm thinking about all
13:51
Speaker 3: that I don't want you to be in the show.
13:53
Speaker 2: Has that happened in the past where my energy has affected?
13:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it has definitely as affected. Maybe my evidence
14:02
Speaker 3: also goes to our lives, not just recordings.
14:06
Speaker 1: Right, So I go to like.
14:07
Speaker 3: If something happens, whether it's me saying something or something, Yeah,
14:11
Speaker 3: and you're if like with friends, it's impacted the room. Yeah,
14:14
Speaker 3: so I'm I'm sensitive to that.
14:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, so all of that also seems reasonable.
14:19
Speaker 1: It's actually quite thoughtful. You're thinking, it's not.
14:23
Speaker 4: Just the episode, It's not just it's our past history.
14:26
Speaker 1: It's our friendship dynamics.
14:28
Speaker 4: I am, I am attuned, I'm sensitive.
14:31
Speaker 2: I can I feel deeply, so I can be if
14:37
Speaker 2: I walk into a room, you'll know if I'm not
14:39
Speaker 2: feeling it. Yeah, and that's the last and it's happened,
14:42
Speaker 2: happens a bunch. Yeah, and that Kevin doesn't want that
14:44
Speaker 2: to show up in the room, which fair.
14:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
14:46
Speaker 4: I also I also know that I can show up
14:50
Speaker 4: that way in a room. So even if you're worried
14:53
Speaker 4: about that, right, Yeah, you shouldn't have to be.
14:57
Speaker 2: Because I now know that I have to check my
15:00
Speaker 2: energy every room I walk into when you and I
15:02
Speaker 2: have to be on right, which is great.
15:05
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is sort of where we started. You're
15:08
Speaker 5: both having a similar experience. So I would imagine that
15:11
Speaker 5: everything you just said are expressions of thoughtfulness. Care for
15:16
Speaker 5: your partner in your business, care for the episode, maybe
15:21
Speaker 5: care for me as a guest or your listeners and viewers.
15:24
Speaker 5: All of these are really awesome. Right, great, and yet
15:29
Speaker 5: this fear is living in you at a deeper level. Right,
15:32
Speaker 5: you're recognizing this as out of size? Is that a
15:35
Speaker 5: fair statement? So let's go underneath that then and go, okay,
15:39
Speaker 5: well what happens if that does happen? What if it
15:41
Speaker 5: is a bad episode? What if you did screw up
15:44
Speaker 5: Bend's mood?
15:48
Speaker 4: You would suck? No, I'm kidding, I don't know.
15:50
Speaker 1: But that's what it feels like. Yeah, where do you
15:53
Speaker 1: feel it? Where do I feel it? In your body?
15:56
Speaker 5: Just okay, chest, upper chest yeaheah, and just let yourself
16:00
Speaker 5: feel that. What do you feel?
16:04
Speaker 3: I feel is a heaviness responsibility, like a common thread
16:12
Speaker 3: for me is like that I could have done something
16:14
Speaker 3: different like that, I have the ability to do something
16:18
Speaker 3: that makes things go well quote unquote, and and if
16:25
Speaker 3: I choose something.
16:26
Speaker 5: And if they don't go well, I'm sorry interrupt you,
16:28
Speaker 5: but I want to go and if it if it
16:30
Speaker 5: doesn't go well, what's the outcome? What happens down the line?
16:36
Speaker 3: It's not as good as it could have been. That's
16:39
Speaker 3: the that's the story that I have, you know, Yeah,
16:56
Speaker 3: I think about a conversation. We've had a lot just
16:58
Speaker 3: about experience growing up, where what I learned was that
17:04
Speaker 3: I had the ability when things were stressful in the
17:08
Speaker 3: house or there was some conflict, that I had the
17:12
Speaker 3: ability to lighten the mood, to actually change the energy
17:17
Speaker 3: in a room, and that became and then people would
17:21
Speaker 3: respond positively to it. So that was my learned mechanism
17:23
Speaker 3: for doing that.
17:24
Speaker 5: It is my guess is and you can correct me
17:26
Speaker 5: if I'm wrong that you don't have any memories of
17:29
Speaker 5: any of the big people coming to you and saying, Kevin,
17:32
Speaker 5: I see what you're doing. I see that you are
17:35
Speaker 5: taking care of us.
17:37
Speaker 1: Right.
17:40
Speaker 5: No, Yeah, there's something about conflict that's really hard for you.
17:43
Speaker 5: Mommy and daddy, Daddy and daddy, brother and brother or
17:46
Speaker 5: whatever it is, or neighbors or whatever the configurations off
17:50
Speaker 5: over the people are. Yeah, the moms are fighting, the
17:52
Speaker 5: dads are fighting, whatever it is. Right that there's there's
17:56
Speaker 5: no witnessing and validating that they see your experience and
18:02
Speaker 5: they've got it. They are aware because that makes you
18:06
Speaker 5: then feel seen, makes you feel safe.
18:09
Speaker 3: Right.
18:10
Speaker 5: Since that's not there, you're left now to kind of
18:15
Speaker 5: build this strategy right right, because you're keeping the peace.
18:20
Speaker 5: Why would you need to keep the peace, right, What
18:23
Speaker 5: is happening to the little boy? If you can go
18:26
Speaker 5: back and if you have a memory of the very
18:28
Speaker 5: first time you're in that conflict, and if you can't
18:30
Speaker 5: remember it, imagine it. What's happening in the little boy?
18:34
Speaker 3: Fear, fear that things will fall apart, I'll lose the
18:39
Speaker 3: people in my.
18:39
Speaker 5: Life there it is, how old are you?
18:42
Speaker 3: I don't have the specific memory, So I just imagine
18:44
Speaker 3: you just love at like four?
18:45
Speaker 5: Four you guys have are around little kids at four?
18:50
Speaker 5: Is it hard to know what they're feeling if you're
18:52
Speaker 5: paying attention.
18:53
Speaker 3: No, it's very easy.
18:58
Speaker 1: It's wild.
18:59
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there you go annihilation, right, fighting for your life.
19:03
Speaker 5: You're not surviving it for yeah, all right.
19:06
Speaker 3: And then there's no repair, right, And this goes to
19:09
Speaker 3: the conflict piece, right, and why conflict is hard, And
19:11
Speaker 3: this is something we worked on so much. That's probably
19:16
Speaker 3: I mean, just like over and over and over. Grocer
19:19
Speaker 3: is the one that shared the stick and the snake.
19:21
Speaker 3: First of all, this I remember sitting on a balcony
19:23
Speaker 3: with you, maybe twenty twenty one at least, and you
19:29
Speaker 3: were going through something and I think you had just
19:31
Speaker 3: shared this analogy with me about the stick and the snake.
19:34
Speaker 3: You know, you're on this hike and you are looking
19:36
Speaker 3: down and you're freaking out because there's a snake by
19:39
Speaker 3: your feet and you're running when in reality she's a stick,
19:44
Speaker 3: and you remind yourself it is just a stick. But
19:47
Speaker 3: then going to conflict, and that's what happens in conflict
19:49
Speaker 3: all the time. I mean, what has happened. I've gotten
19:52
Speaker 3: so much better, thank you, But the conflict piece is
19:56
Speaker 3: so important here.
19:58
Speaker 4: Why are difficult conversation so hard? Why is it so
20:02
Speaker 4: hard for me.
20:02
Speaker 2: To go to Kevin and be like, dude, last week,
20:07
Speaker 2: something you did have to bring up and I don't
20:11
Speaker 2: want to bring it up?
20:12
Speaker 4: Like why is it so hard to even start that?
20:15
Speaker 5: Like?
20:16
Speaker 4: How do we get better at having difficult conversations?
20:19
Speaker 5: What we've done so far is talked about what lives inside.
20:21
Speaker 5: What I would suggest is what lives in you is
20:23
Speaker 5: not that different, even though it's your story versus Kevin's story,
20:28
Speaker 5: which is a threat that lives in us that says
20:31
Speaker 5: if you this, then nothing good will come out of it,
20:33
Speaker 5: no resolution, no repair, annihilation is on the radar.
20:36
Speaker 1: You'll lose everybody.
20:38
Speaker 5: Once you begin to go well, okay, hold on, maybe
20:41
Speaker 5: that's not true, right, So how do I go forward?
20:44
Speaker 5: The bridge to that is conflict is an important necessary
20:49
Speaker 5: step towards intimacy, vulnerability, and closer relationships.
20:54
Speaker 1: Amen.
20:54
Speaker 5: Now, for those that are listening, both of you are
20:57
Speaker 5: nodding right. You both again absolutely sense them being.
21:02
Speaker 1: Great.
21:03
Speaker 5: So here you have this internalized belief that says, avoid
21:07
Speaker 5: it at all cost, or it's just going to be
21:10
Speaker 5: really hard and I've got to find the perfect words,
21:12
Speaker 5: and I have to control the thing to get the
21:14
Speaker 5: outcome I want. And now you're moving into at least
21:18
Speaker 5: internalizing a belief that conflict is okay. The first step
21:21
Speaker 5: in that is when you catch yourself. It can be
21:25
Speaker 5: in the moment. Ideally we worked towards that, whether it's
21:29
Speaker 5: an hour later, a week later, or three years later.
21:31
Speaker 5: When you notice that you are avoiding something out of fear,
21:35
Speaker 5: it's the first love on yourself. Notice that criticism. What
21:39
Speaker 5: the heck is wrong with me?
21:40
Speaker 3: Right?
21:40
Speaker 5: Why am I doing this? When you notice that, that's
21:44
Speaker 5: the first step. Wait, it's okay to be mean, It's
21:48
Speaker 5: okay that I've not addressed this and it's coming up.
21:51
Speaker 5: And now have resentment. Right, This becomes the beginning of
21:55
Speaker 5: honoring yourself. That is a really important step, right, because
22:00
Speaker 5: everything else is built on that. If it's not okay
22:03
Speaker 5: for us to be us, whatever tools I give you
22:05
Speaker 5: will still be deployed in the same construct of taking
22:08
Speaker 5: care of Now, I'm using this sort of one down
22:11
Speaker 5: approach to conversation to avoid conflict, right, So you don't
22:17
Speaker 5: want to avoid the conflict. You want to lean into
22:20
Speaker 5: the conflict. Leaning into the conflict does not mean hurting
22:23
Speaker 5: each other. There's a big difference between you're a loser
22:27
Speaker 5: and you're a blah blah blah blah blah versus man.
22:30
Speaker 5: You really hurt my feelings when you did that. I
22:33
Speaker 5: had expectations. We talked about it, and it makes me
22:37
Speaker 5: feel all of these other things. That's a vulnerable way
22:40
Speaker 5: of going to somebody because you're talking about your experience.
22:45
Speaker 5: That requires some solid legs, because if you feel like
22:49
Speaker 5: you're rejectable, why would you open up your armor? And
22:52
Speaker 5: then you just start poorly. That's it, right, you just
22:58
Speaker 5: start poorly. Like anything else, you have to exp to
23:00
Speaker 5: go in and do it really poorly. You know, I've
23:02
Speaker 5: been really playing with in my life, just really trying
23:06
Speaker 5: to love being bad at things because you're only bad
23:11
Speaker 5: at things for such a short period of time. And
23:13
Speaker 5: if you like that thing, you're gonna keep doing it.
23:14
Speaker 5: You're gonna become better at it, and you're never going
23:17
Speaker 5: to get to be like awkward and you're never you know,
23:20
Speaker 5: I've got a kid that's going to be thirteen, So
23:22
Speaker 5: I'm constantly doing new things that I've never done before,
23:26
Speaker 5: and I'm terrible at them. I'm like, you know what,
23:27
Speaker 5: I'm going to become better at this, so do it poorly? Yeah,
23:31
Speaker 5: all right? And then yes, once you're in that space.
23:35
Speaker 5: A communication style that can actually diffuse is to lead
23:40
Speaker 5: with something vulnerable about yourself as a way of diffusing
23:44
Speaker 5: an expected difficult interaction.
23:48
Speaker 2: Can you do an example for me that you taught
23:49
Speaker 2: you totally use an example of us if you can.
23:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the example that's another friend. But I think
23:57
Speaker 3: it'll make sense if that friend does something that feels
24:07
Speaker 3: just like I'm not being considered and that it's like
24:09
Speaker 3: it feels like aggression towards me, sort of repetitively starting
24:15
Speaker 3: with I'm really scared to bring this up because I
24:19
Speaker 3: love you nice and I care about our friendship, but
24:24
Speaker 3: it's actually kind of really terrifying for me to like
24:27
Speaker 3: bring this up right now. I don't feel like I'm
24:29
Speaker 3: good at having these kinds of conversations. That's all of
24:32
Speaker 3: a sudden, like this is what you taught me, all
24:35
Speaker 3: of a sudden. It's impossible for that person to be
24:38
Speaker 3: like upset that you're bringing.
24:39
Speaker 4: This thing up because they care about you too.
24:40
Speaker 1: Because they care about you.
24:42
Speaker 3: I think what I what you taught me is that
24:46
Speaker 3: my fear was that in me bringing up a problem,
24:50
Speaker 3: it was going to push that person away. It was
24:52
Speaker 3: gonna make them angry and make them run away. Okay,
24:55
Speaker 3: they're gonna say I don't want to be your friend
24:56
Speaker 3: anymore because of that. And the reality also is that
24:59
Speaker 3: once someone brings up a problem with you, when someone
25:02
Speaker 3: brings a problem with me, the human nature is you
25:06
Speaker 3: get scared that someone is telling you they want to leave,
25:09
Speaker 3: and so you feel attacked, and so you go into
25:12
Speaker 3: either a fight or fight or please are fun. So
25:16
Speaker 3: this starting with the vulnerability. You're actually telling the person
25:21
Speaker 3: like I love you, I I'm scared right now, or
25:26
Speaker 3: I'm this is vulnerable for me to bring up, but
25:31
Speaker 3: I want to bring it up because I care. So
25:33
Speaker 3: you're actually telling them like the opposite of their fear,
25:35
Speaker 3: which is I'm not gonna leave. I don't hate you,
25:37
Speaker 3: I'm not bring this up because I don't want to
25:39
Speaker 3: be your friend anymore. This in relationship was huge too,
25:41
Speaker 3: Like I remember like relationships a break for me over
25:46
Speaker 3: and over and over and over again because I would
25:49
Speaker 3: be so terrified to bring up a problem, for it
25:51
Speaker 3: would go for months and months and months and months,
25:53
Speaker 3: and it would keep happening and happening and happening, and
25:55
Speaker 3: I was terrified to like say anything because I thought
25:57
Speaker 3: that I would hurt them so much about to bring
25:59
Speaker 3: it up, and then all of a sudden I would
26:00
Speaker 3: just go like I can't do this anymore and I
26:02
Speaker 3: would leave and they'd be like what the fuck what?
26:06
Speaker 3: I thought you were good? Like what you never brought
26:08
Speaker 3: any of this up. I'm like, right, and this I
26:11
Speaker 3: think this. When we started working together, you really helped
26:15
Speaker 3: me with having these conversations and opening up with that
26:21
Speaker 3: vulnerability so that that person would feel like I actually care.
26:25
Speaker 3: I'm bringing this up because I care, not because I
26:28
Speaker 3: hate you.
26:28
Speaker 5: The real key here with this this kind of communication
26:31
Speaker 5: is not necessarily to control. It certainly does diffuse the potential.
26:36
Speaker 5: But think about what you're doing. You're actually going into
26:40
Speaker 5: a more. You're letting your partner, your girlfriend, your boyfriend,
26:44
Speaker 5: your business partner, your friends, you're whoever learn more about you.
26:51
Speaker 5: This is really hard for me to bring up because
26:53
Speaker 5: I'm scared that I'm going to hurt your feelings because
26:56
Speaker 5: of what lives in me. My expectation is that when
26:59
Speaker 5: I bring up something hard, that you're gonna be mad
27:02
Speaker 5: at me and blah blah blah. Right, I avoid these things,
27:06
Speaker 5: and what happens is then I will we will drift apart,
27:09
Speaker 5: and I will be safely back in that container of isolation.
27:13
Speaker 3: And then what comes after that? So you have first
27:16
Speaker 3: your you're loving yourself for right, You're saying, it's good,
27:20
Speaker 3: it's okay that I haven't brought this up yet. I
27:23
Speaker 3: love the way I'm showing up and I'm glad I'm
27:26
Speaker 3: realizing it now. Then you're coming into the conversation with
27:29
Speaker 3: that one down approach, what sort of the next step
27:31
Speaker 3: and having that hard conversation.
27:33
Speaker 5: Well, then you do you know, you just have to
27:34
Speaker 5: trust yourself, do it poorly to start. It's just gonna
27:37
Speaker 5: happen from.
27:37
Speaker 3: Always almost like I'm worried i'd have like a client.
27:41
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm gonna I have to tie this thing
27:43
Speaker 3: that has been bothering me.
27:44
Speaker 1: How do I do it right? He's like, you're gonna
27:46
Speaker 1: mess it up.
27:48
Speaker 3: That's okay, Sure, stop expecting yourself to do it perfectly.
27:53
Speaker 5: None of us would be walking if our expectation was
27:56
Speaker 5: a runner marathon. The first time we took a step,
27:58
Speaker 5: none of us would ever walk, right. But we all
28:01
Speaker 5: fall on our butt in some meaningful way over a
28:03
Speaker 5: period of time, and then look at us, we can walk.
28:06
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's hard. The next step is to do
28:24
Speaker 5: the best you can to speak honestly when you whatever
28:28
Speaker 5: it really hurt my feelings or you know, whatever it.
28:32
Speaker 4: Is what happened.
28:32
Speaker 2: If the person responds in a way that they get
28:35
Speaker 2: defensive and they don't receive it, then you feel like
28:38
Speaker 2: you recoil and you don't want to share something with
28:40
Speaker 2: them again.
28:41
Speaker 5: Potentially, yeah, potentially depends what happens next. Right, So if
28:46
Speaker 5: you bring something to me right, and you're taking this
28:49
Speaker 5: big risk, especially right, first of all, we have to
28:52
Speaker 5: realize that our relationship was built on this mutual agreement.
28:56
Speaker 5: You were not you're a conflict avoidant and I opted
28:59
Speaker 5: into that. Right, So we've created a way of being together,
29:04
Speaker 5: and you're actually messing that up. You're now awakening and
29:09
Speaker 5: you're like, I belong and I'm worthy, and so I
29:12
Speaker 5: have an opinion or it's not okay for you to
29:14
Speaker 5: hurt my feelings or whatever. You are changing the terms
29:18
Speaker 5: of that agreement. Sometimes it goes really well. Some people
29:21
Speaker 5: are very receptive to that, and just one person's work
29:24
Speaker 5: can affect change in the other. Often both folks need
29:28
Speaker 5: to work on it together, and sometimes the other person's like,
29:32
Speaker 5: you've turned in quite an asshole, right, they can't tolerate it.
29:36
Speaker 5: What you're talking about is somebody that can't tolerate.
29:38
Speaker 3: That, right, They can't tolerate the fact that all of
29:41
Speaker 3: a sudden, now you're expressing your needs exactly right, it's
29:45
Speaker 3: so interesting.
29:46
Speaker 5: It just can't tolerate it. What do you mean it
29:48
Speaker 5: don't be such an asshole?
29:49
Speaker 1: Right? WHOA Right?
29:50
Speaker 4: I almost don't.
29:51
Speaker 1: You've never said this before, And I don't.
29:52
Speaker 4: Want to be friends with that person after they.
29:54
Speaker 1: Do that, right, this has never been a problem.
29:56
Speaker 4: I almost want to stop being friends of them the
29:57
Speaker 4: moment they do.
29:58
Speaker 5: That, exactly, So that is now a defensive strategy.
30:01
Speaker 1: I have to your defensive strategy.
30:04
Speaker 5: I am now I took a chance. I'm revealing something important.
30:08
Speaker 5: I'm taking this step out of a desire to be
30:11
Speaker 5: closer with you, to have a more reciprocal relationship, right
30:16
Speaker 5: And the response is to hurt you.
30:17
Speaker 4: Well, they're not evolved enough for me to be in
30:19
Speaker 4: a relationship with right now.
30:21
Speaker 5: Let's say they come back to you the next day
30:24
Speaker 5: and they're like, you know what, you really caught me
30:27
Speaker 5: off guard when you said that, and I'm really sorry.
30:30
Speaker 5: I'm sorry for what I said in that moment. Friends exactly,
30:35
Speaker 5: so you're.
30:36
Speaker 1: Okay with it. But now you're okay with it.
30:38
Speaker 5: This becomes the opportunity for to go deeper.
30:42
Speaker 3: And I think what's interesting course that you said, is
30:45
Speaker 3: that you told Ben you would created an agreement of
30:50
Speaker 3: how the relationship goes. I think that's what's interesting, Like
30:54
Speaker 3: in that relationship, in that friendship, and I have done that.
30:59
Speaker 3: I've done this many times my friendships. I create an
31:01
Speaker 3: agreement over years with this person where I'm not going
31:05
Speaker 3: to express all my needs. I'm not going to dress
31:09
Speaker 3: problems that I have when the person does actions that
31:13
Speaker 3: affect me. I'm just gonna hold it in. That's the
31:16
Speaker 3: agreement that I've made, and that person builds, like anyone,
31:19
Speaker 3: a conditioning that this is how things go and that's normal.
31:21
Speaker 1: And Kevin's easy going and Kevin's chill, and Kevin.
31:23
Speaker 3: Like doesn't care, and he's like he's not gonna get angry.
31:28
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, now I go.
31:31
Speaker 3: To therapy and I all of a sudden, I go, Okay, hey,
31:37
Speaker 3: someone does something. I go, hey, when you did that,
31:40
Speaker 3: it really made me like angry, shut down, shut down.
31:46
Speaker 3: It made me I felt a lot of aggression from you.
31:49
Speaker 3: Like whatever it is, you're obviously, all of a sudden
31:53
Speaker 3: going back on an agreement that you've had with them,
31:54
Speaker 3: an implicit agreement that you have with them for years.
31:57
Speaker 3: If that person has let's say, abandonment issues, or that
31:59
Speaker 3: persons whatever it is, they might blow up and go,
32:03
Speaker 3: what the fuck do you get what I'm saying? So
32:05
Speaker 3: maybe the response shouldn't be to go they're not involved
32:07
Speaker 3: with enough.
32:08
Speaker 2: No my in my head, in my head, I'm saying, damn,
32:11
Speaker 2: that made me so uncomfortable. I did something so hard
32:14
Speaker 2: for me, and I'm trying to grow. I hope they
32:19
Speaker 2: acknowledge what they did soon there you go.
32:21
Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying. But in the moment, I'm like,
32:24
Speaker 4: fuck you.
32:25
Speaker 3: But I do agree that, But I often feel like
32:28
Speaker 3: it's in that moment that you share something they don't respond.
32:32
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they push back.
32:34
Speaker 3: You have two options. Okay, your option was to go,
32:37
Speaker 3: I'm out, fuck you. You're not paying attention to me,
32:40
Speaker 3: you're not caring for me. If in that moment you
32:43
Speaker 3: doubled down on the vulnerability. If and that way, you go, hey,
32:46
Speaker 3: I just tried to share something really vulnerable with you.
32:49
Speaker 3: That's been really hard for me to share with you
32:51
Speaker 3: for my entire life, and you responded with aggression. That
32:56
Speaker 3: makes me not want to be in this friendship and
32:58
Speaker 3: I want to be in this.
32:58
Speaker 2: Friends Yes, you're right, you can do it twice. But
33:00
Speaker 2: the response after that person is they'd be like, what
33:02
Speaker 2: do you mean?
33:03
Speaker 4: I wasn't even aggressive.
33:04
Speaker 7: That If that's a responsible different because you're the person
33:07
Speaker 7: has a pattern in that moment, there's no way they're
33:10
Speaker 7: going to take your vulnerability times too and be like,
33:13
Speaker 7: you know what, You're right.
33:15
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've had experiences where you could could.
33:18
Speaker 4: But I'm just I'm thinking about a few people in
33:20
Speaker 4: my life.
33:20
Speaker 3: You have to really stay. I think you have to
33:22
Speaker 3: not get activated. I have friends who do it and
33:25
Speaker 3: get activated and then like they didn't listen.
33:27
Speaker 5: Yeah poorly.
33:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's okay.
33:31
Speaker 5: Having that recoil experience is your biology. It's your nervous
33:35
Speaker 5: system taking care of you, and it's okay.
33:40
Speaker 2: What would be a sign that you're a people pleaser
33:43
Speaker 2: versus just being nice or what would a sign be
33:45
Speaker 2: if you're nice versus just being a people pleaser.
33:48
Speaker 4: How do you know the difference between the two.
33:50
Speaker 5: That's a really good question, A key element to be
33:53
Speaker 5: aware of for anybody that's like wondering about this. Am
33:56
Speaker 5: I subjugating my needs? Am I making myself visible in
34:01
Speaker 5: this going on? Am I tethered to some story that
34:04
Speaker 5: if I don't, I will lose I will blah blah blah,
34:08
Speaker 5: and then I have to fix it all of that.
34:10
Speaker 1: That's the big thing, that's the keys.
34:12
Speaker 5: Noticing that is the beginning of the key. And for
34:15
Speaker 5: those that are, you know, sort of wondering about this,
34:19
Speaker 5: highly encourage people to be aware of the implications of this.
34:26
Speaker 5: There's a really great sort of meta analysis of the
34:29
Speaker 5: impact of people pleasing that's in doctor Gabor Mate's book
34:33
Speaker 5: The Myth of Normal right, where he talks a lot
34:37
Speaker 5: about the implications of the kinds of things that happen
34:41
Speaker 5: in life that make people overly nice, that are avoiding
34:45
Speaker 5: conflict and so forth, and in a nutshell, you're at
34:49
Speaker 5: risk of all cos mortalities.
34:51
Speaker 3: You're you're more at risk of all cosmotality across the
34:54
Speaker 3: board by doing that.
34:55
Speaker 5: Across the board, it is.
34:57
Speaker 3: Let's let's fix it, buddy, Well, think about.
35:01
Speaker 5: It, right, it's it's across the board. Now, he doesn't
35:06
Speaker 5: use that language. That was just my shorthand of saying
35:09
Speaker 5: heart disease, dementia, and.
35:11
Speaker 2: On and on and on.
35:12
Speaker 5: Right, we can go down that list. But it's across
35:15
Speaker 5: the board. Wow, it's kind of Bunker's addiction, et cetera.
35:18
Speaker 1: I love that.
35:18
Speaker 3: That's a good, good motivation to stop people pleasing and
35:23
Speaker 3: to start expressing your needs. Crush, thank you so much
35:27
Speaker 3: for coming on that.
35:28
Speaker 1: This is such a gift. Thank you.
35:30
Speaker 3: It's so fun to to see you and to feel
35:33
Speaker 3: like we're back in the room.
35:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for
35:38
Speaker 5: doing this.
35:39
Speaker 1: This is great.
35:40
Speaker 5: I hope something that I've shared or some ideas that
35:43
Speaker 5: I've brought forward stoke a certain curiosity in you to
35:47
Speaker 5: connect with dig in, find your own truth, find your
35:50
Speaker 5: own wisdom. And if it's resembles something I've said, great,
35:53
Speaker 5: If it's entirely different, great, And I wish that for
35:56
Speaker 5: anybody that gets to listen to this, just because I
35:59
Speaker 5: think we're just all worthy. We all are worth getting
36:02
Speaker 5: to know ourselves.
36:02
Speaker 1: Amazing.
36:03
Speaker 3: And Kuros just has a book that was just released.
36:07
Speaker 3: It's called Onto the Next Mistake. This is the he
36:10
Speaker 3: had an art piece behind his desk. Every time that
36:13
Speaker 3: I was working with you, it was that piece, Onto
36:16
Speaker 3: the Next Mistake.
36:18
Speaker 1: Check it out.
36:19
Speaker 3: Congratulations, thank you, thank thank you, love you, bro Hey,
36:25
Speaker 3: thanks for listening.
36:26
Speaker 1: We appreciate you.
36:28
Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode and us embarrassing ourselves and
36:30
Speaker 2: talking about our feelings, you are definitely going to like
36:33
Speaker 2: everything else.
36:34
Speaker 3: Follow on on Instagram at free therapy and we'll see
36:37
Speaker 3: you next time.