Latest / SisterSmart Leadership / 19: Resolving the Unpaid Labor of Women at Work Through an Intersectional Lens with Moriah Johnson and Ashley Ridder

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19: Resolving the Unpaid Labor of Women at Work Through an Intersectional Lens with Moriah Johnson and Ashley Ridder · SisterSmart Leadership

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  Data from the OECD shows that women are doing 63 percent more
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  of the unpaid labor in the U.
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  S.
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  And this contributes to the business trap that many of us find ourselves
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  in both in work and at home.
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  I'm fascinated how our culture contributes to this so that we can find
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  sustainable solutions to get out of this business trap and burnout cycles
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  that so many women find themselves in.
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  You are going to want to stick around for this discussion with two amazing
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  women who are experts on this subject.
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  We will be talking about the issue through a lens of cultural history
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  and race to uncover the social influences that we need to work
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  against if we want to make progress.
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  I'm Jill Avey, a career success coach, and this is Sister Smart Leadership, the
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  show that explores how women can rise from director to vice president and beyond
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  by fully leaning into their feminine energy as their biggest advantage.
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  Let's get you one step closer to the recognition and promotion you deserve.
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  It's been proven that companies prosper more when diversity
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  increases, and I am working hard to support women in the workplace
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  so we can improve gender balance.
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  Yet the workplace isn't the same experience for all women.
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  In fact, white women are at a distinct advantage in terms of promotions, pay,
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  and dealing with microaggressions.
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  When we can understand how our experience is similar and different than women
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  of color, we can work together towards a future where all women can rise
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  to create a truly diverse workplace that creates prosperity for all.
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  So I'm joined here today by Mariah Johnson, who is an equity
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  consultant with an emphasis on intersectionality of gender and race.
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  And Ashley Cisneros Ritter, who is the practice director
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  at Chicago Career Consulting.
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  And she's also the associate dean at the School of Business at
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  North Park University, where she has also taught gender studies.
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  So let me hear a little bit about how you both got into this work.
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  Mariah, would you start for us?
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  Yeah, um, thanks, first of all Jill for having me here really excited to be a part
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  of this conversation My journey to where I am today has been I don't know, ups
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  and downs in many ways, I didn't expect where I would end up as far as an equity
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  consultant, but it's been so informed by my own positionality as a black woman,
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  my research and scholarly interest in race and education and organizations
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  and just trying to understand why these inequalities persist and what it looks
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  like to find those leverage points that really create meaningful change.
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  It's a part of the larger movement and conversation around diversity, equity,
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  inclusion, which is really popular right now, and many organizations and companies
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  are trying to transform their organization and their culture in a way that integrates
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  these principles of diversity, equity and inclusion or belonging and accessibility,
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  but to do that, you have to be willing to examine those small details about your
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  company and your culture structure as far as what is perpetuating the things that
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  we see in society as far as inequality, but in the microcosm of our organization.
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  So my journey has been examining universities.
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  As they try to engage in this work, but also government agencies and
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  small, medium and large organizations I've been working now as a consultant
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  for informally for almost a decade, but for formally for the past five
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  years some of that work with Ashley.
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  So happy to be here and share some of what I've learned on my journey,
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  both personally as a black woman in the workplace, but also professionally
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  as a consultant doing this work.
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  Thank you.
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  And Ashley, please give us a little, your background as well.
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  Sure.
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  I think part of my story even begins just within my own identity.
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  So I was the first person in my immediate family to go to college.
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  I was raised by both my mother and also my grandparents.
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  And my grandfather is Mexicano.
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  And my grandmother descends from Irish immigrants.
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  Within me, I have multiple identities, both of culture, race, and class.
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  And so, when I came into the workplace or went to university, I sort of immediately
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  could feel these intersections at play.
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  But some of them based on how I show up, were a little bit invisible.
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  And so part of what I think has drawn me to the work of wanting to see
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  workplaces create healthy ecosystems for people is even just my own experience
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  of trying to navigate so many of the workplace norms that perhaps were set by
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  people previous to to my arrival there.
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  And so I think one of the things that I really love is being able to dive into
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  that conversation both through an academic lens, but also a practitioner lens in
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  my work with clients and with teams.
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  So that's a little bit about me.
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  Fantastic.
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  Let me put a question out to you both to start.
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  I was talking a little bit about unpaid labor when we first started today and
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  how does that play out in the workplace and the statistics are that women in
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  general do a lot more unpaid labor.
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  And that might be taking notes in a meeting, it might be doing the dishes,
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  it might be planning the, company party.
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  What other things have the two of you seen when it comes to unpaid labor for women?
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  In my work, a lot of the unpaid labor is around joining initiatives like the DEI
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  initiative or leading employee resource groups, these more non technical work
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  related work, the feelings and emotional work, emotional labor of dealing with
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  bias and inequality in the workplace, but not really even on the meaningful levels
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  of pay gap or succession planning that is, is diverse and inclusive, but really
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  around culture and things of that nature.
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  And I think that there's this association of thinking about DI work as feelings
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  based work that's like the softer, lighter side and inadvertently that
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  work becomes feminized and becomes a part of the work that women in the
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  workplace do, specifically black women or women of color end up getting handed
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  that work and again, it's not paid.
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  It doesn't look, lead to more promotions.
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  It doesn't, reflect favorably in your evaluations.
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  It's just extra work that you're doing.
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  And sometimes because you're really personally invested and committed
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  to that work, but sometimes it just gets thrown in your lap.
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  And so I've worked in those organizations with people doing that work.
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  And oftentimes they're either middle management or they don't even have that
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  much power in the organization to create the policy level and really impactful
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  change around what it would mean to create a more equitable or inclusive workplace.
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  But they have the extra labor again, without the meaningful, powerful to
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  shift change and make change there.
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  So that's a lot of the unpaid labor I end up saying in my work.
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  And I would add that on a surface level, I once had a mentor say to me, Ashley,
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  never bring the cupcakes to a meeting.
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  And I said that's hard.
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  So part of my background, I grew up in a family business a family of entrepreneurs
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  and we had a cake baking company.
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  And so I was like, but I love making
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  cupcakes
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  I want to bring cupcakes!
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  Right, right, right.
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  So it's not literally like I, I still bring the cupcakes.
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  I love bake but.
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  It was a a reminder of don't take the path of least resistance.
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  Sometimes that even unintentionally folks will look to a particular
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  person without even recognizing the bias that they're having about
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  assigning a particular duty to them.
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  And that's something we have to bring into more of our own conscious awareness.
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  So that's a little bit of what I'd see I've seen with that.
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  can I add one thing to that?
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  One thing I've seen and discussed with people is how often they take a family
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  dynamic and bring it into the workplace.
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  And when we integrated, we can talk about racial integration, but when we
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  integrated gender work, gendered work or gender based work and women started
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  being more involved in public workspaces what happened is men were still thinking
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  of women in terms of you're a woman and in terms of how I think about my wife or
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  my sister or my mother, but I need you to think about me in terms of my work.
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  I don't need you to play to the fact that I'm a woman.
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  And when we're at work, I just want to be your colleague who is
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  qualified and informed and intelligent and knows what she's doing.
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  I don't need you to be opening doors for me or being polite for me in
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  a certain way or bending to these gendered rules that you honor in your
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  own household or in your personal life.
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  That's fine there if you agree to that dynamic, but in the workplace,
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  it's so much more important that we step outside of the gender
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  performance that we're so used to.
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  And we've bought into so much.
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  I had one mentor when I was doing my research for my leadership program.
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  We were talking about how women can seem aggressive when they come off too strong.
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  And he said, "Oh yeah, that takes me right back to the original woman who
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  ever told me what to do, which is my mom.
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  And so, and I thought, Oh gosh yeah, we are, we are bringing our whole history
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  in and, and sometimes, I'm sure that, we bring our dads into the room too, and so
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  that all comes in and we need to be able to recognize that when it's happening.
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  And what do we do about that?
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  Recognize it and then shift into, yeah, this is a workplace, not a home.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yeah.
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  And I feel like one of the things that happens with women is we just keep working
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  harder and trying to balance it all.
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  There's a lot that plays into this piece, this, I call it the busyness trap, but
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  there's so many different influences that keep us just doing more and more.
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  Yeah, I think I'll jump in there with that one because I was thinking
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  about this just this morning.
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  So with what Mariah was saying just a moment ago, like we want work to be work.
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  One of the things I observe, both in workplaces and also with clients, is
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  that sometimes women come into work and they've taken that to mean, now
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  I need to meet whatever the norms are here, I need to meet the standards,
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  I need to, quote, leave my Home at home, leave my baggage at home, right?
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  And part of what we have to recognize and start saying out loud is that
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  the norms that were created in the workplace previously were built
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  around a different society, right?
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  Many of them were very patriarchal in nature.
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  So we have equated in our heads professionalism with patriarchal
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  norms, and that's not the case.
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  So when we say, oh, we want to be at work and we want to be seen for our competency.
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  That doesn't mean we don't we aren't seen as a whole person because that's
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  more of the kind of workplace we need to see in general for however,
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  someone identifies their gender.
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  So I'll give you an example, in some workplaces, I, and I even have said
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  this I like to hold a high standard of excellence and absolutely we can do that.
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  But sometimes we've taken that to mean that nothing can fall through and it all
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  has to be done to a perfection level.
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  And when we do that, we actually create a dynamic of overwork.
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  So I see this over and over again, a lack of systems in the
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  workplace to support people.
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  And so we see people working not just a certain number of hours, but way over
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  what is actually good for human wellness.
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  And we've normalized that.
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  We've said, that's okay to do.
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  You got to put in your time.
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  And we can look to so many examples.
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  You can Google right now, Mayo Clinic, and see what are some of
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  the symptoms of stress, of burnout.
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  These are actual physical symptoms in the body.
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  So part of what we have to recognize, particularly for, the listeners, if
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  most of you might identify as women part of what we have to recognize
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  is that we can't just jump into that and keep that cycle going.
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  We have to find the points of influence where we can start
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  to shift what is normalized.
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  So I'll pause there.
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  I've got more examples, but I want to hear what my colleague has to say.
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  Or we can say there's so much work to be done, there's no point in always
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  working like, and that's been my mindset shift because I have so much work.
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  I can come back to it tomorrow and I can continue moving on with it.
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  But it is a mixture of the type of work environment that's been created.
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  And it's fast.
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  Everything's fast, deliverables need to be produced quickly with perfect perfection
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  and high quality and everything like that.
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  And so I really think it's valuable and the work I do incorporating
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  reflection and pauses is such an important part of my work.
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  When we keep going and we move so fast, that's when we make the most mistakes and
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  that's where we reproduce inequalities and we reproduce norms that are just
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  familiar to us because we're not stopping to actually reflect on any harm and
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  we're not stopping to reflect on what needs to change now that the workplace
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  demographically looks so different, right?
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  If you don't do that, then you're going to get trapped in this business
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  trap and you're going to get trapped in these cultures of harm and these
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  cultures that reproduce inequality.
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  And so truthfully, there is a lot of work to be done.
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  So go ahead and decide that at 6pm at night, we stop the work and we pick
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  it back up at 9am or 10am or however your work schedule is organized.
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  Put down the work.
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  I also will just add to that I work with folks in a variety
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  of different industries.
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  I recognize this looks different in different spaces.
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  I, what comes to mind is I have some close friends who are in the medical field.
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  And so many of us have the luxury of being able to say this isn't no one's dying.
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  They may not have that luxury.
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  There is a, there is difficulty based on your space.
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  But that doesn't mean that we can keep doing what is not humanly possible, right?
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  So we have to have some movement toward a more sustainable work life.
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  And some of this is on the individual, and some of it is on the organization.
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  I would say most of it's usually on the organization, truthfully, because
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  the individual is responding to the organizational culture that they are in.
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  But we also influence each other.
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  It's a symbiotic relationship.
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  So we all have to examine where our sphere of influence is and
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  the risks we're willing to take.
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  So, just to give an example of what I've done sometimes on teams, and
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  when I'm encouraging other teams based on what Mariah said about
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  pauses, operationalize these things.
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  Once a month in your meeting, maybe instead of just talking about business
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  as usual, maybe it's a known thing around amount among your team.
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  Hey, we take an equity pause once a month to specifically, and hopefully we're doing
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  it every day, but to specifically say what are we moving really quickly on that we
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  just need to pause and notice and start to identify a potential new pathway of
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  dealing with that issue or that problem.
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  This is something that you don't have to call it an equity pause.
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  It could just be an organizational pause.
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  And where are we out of alignment with both our own personal values, but
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  also our organizational values too.
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  Yeah, I love that, Ashley.
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  And I think it's such a great practice when you're able to leverage something
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  you're already doing instead of adding another meeting to the calendar, just go
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  ahead and use that, that meeting that's already in your calendar, take that 5 to
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  10 minutes at the beginning or the end to do something really human that's really
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  valuable to your organization and your culture that you're trying to create.
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  So I love that.
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  And what kind of questions should teams be asking themselves at that time?
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  Yeah, that's a great question,
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  It's a values check in, where might we be out of alignment with our values?
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  Including equity and considering that and how we approach our work.
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  So you might ask, who this month slowed a process down so that they
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  could make sure the quality was a better outcome for the recipient
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  of whatever the process was, right?
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  If you start to almost create an expectation of positive association when
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  something is slowed down for the sake of a better outcome, you will find people
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  will start to move in that direction more.
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  So asking for where there were wins.
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  Asking where, I use the term sticky wicket, like, where's a sticky wicket
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  where's something that's like a sticky, it's like stuck, and we don't know
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  how to solve it, and maybe we don't have time to, but we can identify it
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  here, and then we can take some time in another meeting to really Take
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  more time with whatever the issue is.
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  It's
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  I think that's great.
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  And I like to ask about what's stressful and what's tedious.
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  There's some tasks that you do daily or weekly, and you've
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  started to not even think about it.
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  It's just a normal thing that you do.
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  And so what would it mean to take a moment to just ask yourself a
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  few questions about that task?
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  What's that task?
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  What's the goal of that task?
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  Why does it need to be done so frequently?
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  And just really asking questions about it because there have been so
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  many times I've been working in a company, like full time employee in
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  a company, and I've just practiced what I was told to practice, like in
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  onboarding, I was told to do this thing.
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  So every month I do it, but I don't question it.
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  I don't reflect on it.
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  I don't examine any aspects of it.
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  It's just a part of my normal functioning.
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  And then you can also ask about what's stressful.
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  What's a task or aspect of your job that is stressful, that adds extra
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  stress, reflecting on it, unpacking it.
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  Is there a ways we can ease the stress through collaboration or making it
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  more efficient or automating it.
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  What can we do about it?
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  So it doesn't even have to be a reflection on equity, but just reflecting on our own
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  tasks and the things that we regularly do in our role can give us a moment to
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  reexamine and reflect and shift to action or shift some element of our job and
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  those are some of the things that I do with companies and it can be so powerful
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  for someone to realize that something they had normalized, something that they
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  just had routinized and it just was a part of the role, could actually become
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  an opportunity to improve the role and opportunity to relieve stress for them.
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  And that can be really transformative.
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  I couldn't agree with you more Mariah.
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  So often the solutions we need are like right there if we will stop and ask
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  each other and find at least something.
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  Jill, I do want to add one other thing to your question.
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  Because I think this is probably the best place to put it.
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  So I tend to not focus on the individual.
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  I tend to focus on the organization and all the things we can do.
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  But real talk, let's just, have a moment here where we say, so
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  I am a I have a partner at home.
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  I have a spouse.
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  I have two kids.
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  Here's the thing.
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  I see far too many of my, we'll just say folks in, in this kind of season
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  of life, I observe that it's easier to complain about our partners than
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  it is to say to them directly, "here's exactly where I need the help right now."
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  I'm in a unique situation in that my spouse is very active in our home life,
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  right, and he has the freedom in his work life to be able to do that as
• 19:24
  well But that aside I think sometimes we make it harder on ourselves by just
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  growing in resentment versus simply clearly communicating, these are the
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  things that I need to stop my own need to do it my way, and I need to let go.
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  Let it go.
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  Let the laundry sit there, let the whatever, let it happen, right?
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  Because the world does not end and begin with your own ability to live
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  into whatever domestic dreams that are going on for yourself inside.
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  So there's my little real talk moment for us.
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  I love it.
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  I tell you, it was a journey for me when I, when my husband started doing
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  the laundry and I had to let go of what I thought it was, should look like.
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  And sometimes we have to replace things more often and that's okay because it's
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  the same thing as when we delegate to our team at work, we have to accept
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  that things are going to get done in their way and not necessarily our way.
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  And sometimes that's better.
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  And sometimes it's maybe not the way we would do it.
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  And we see a potential for improvement, but.
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  it, it
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  embracing embracing what everybody's bringing.
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  Yeah.
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  Oh, embracing what everyone's bringing.
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  I do wonder if there is a role that gender plays in like management style
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  as far as micromanaging versus a more flexible hands off management style
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  because I have experienced that need for things to be done particularly like
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  the way that I want them x, y, and z.
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  That's extra work for us too, right?
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  We're overworking ourselves by not trusting our teams to do things and not
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  allowing their own style for how we get it done, if the quality is there, right?
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  Because some things are about quality, some things may be about the client need
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  or perspective, and some things might just be your own stylistic preferences
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  that don't actually matter to the quality of the work and add extra labor to you.
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  For what?
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  For what?
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  Freeing yourself from that, I think, at work and at home is
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  really powerful and necessary.
• 21:23
  I think that's really important, Mariah, because Ashley's point, she's
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  thinking about the organization and where I work is the individual level.
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  And so I see that this happens a lot that, we know, as women and for women
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  of color, it's even more important that we know that we have to be better.
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  We know we have to have higher quality.
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  We have to have everything ticked and tied.
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  We have to know our data.
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  Because we are going to be questioned on it and we are going to be doubted.
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  And so I think it's very very hard for people to
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  automatically know where to stop.
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  And that's a concept that I'm really thinking a lot about is what is enough.
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  And what are our upper limits on things?
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  Because as you were talking before, like there's no limit to how much work
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  we can do, Greg McEwen's latest book got me thinking about this as he was
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  talking about setting that limit to how many things you'll do a day and
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  how much you'll put into something.
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  And I think that's a really important piece here of deciding
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  where enough is enough and how good do we have to be, you know?
• 22:27
  I think that's about prioritization and clarifying expectations even.
• 22:32
  And we may be afraid if we are in a middle management position and there is
• 22:36
  upper management, we may be uncomfortable to ask Hey, what's the expectations
• 22:40
  for my role or what's the expectations for like task or this deliverable
• 22:43
  specifically or whatever it may be.
• 22:45
  Clarifying those expectations, but then setting your priorities.
• 22:48
  One of my priorities, work is not my life.
• 22:52
  I had to accept and realize that and once I did, I could reorganize where
• 22:57
  I put it and how much time I gave to thinking about work when I wasn't working.
• 23:02
  Because if work is not my life, then when I'm spending time with my
• 23:04
  husband, I can't be thinking about that problem I was trying to solve earlier.
• 23:08
  Like I really have to detach from certain things, which has
• 23:12
  been a process in and of itself.
• 23:14
  And it's funny how much you can learn from male workers.
• 23:17
  Honestly, one of my colleagues he was like, he had such a, like
• 23:24
  distant perspective on the work and I was like, how do you not
• 23:27
  feel more deeply about this?
• 23:29
  And I felt so attached to the work and he was like, because this is the task.
• 23:33
  This is what they wanted.
• 23:34
  We did it.
• 23:35
  it,
• 23:36
  There's no feelings about it.
• 23:37
  And there was so much to take away from that.
• 23:39
  And obviously we're different people.
• 23:41
  We feel different things.
• 23:42
  But I've really tried to practice detachment from some elements of
• 23:45
  my work so that I can be present when I'm doing other things.
• 23:49
  And when I'm with family and friends and other priorities in my life.
• 23:53
  So I think deciding what your priorities are and how much energy and time
• 23:58
  and emotional labor you'll give to certain things can be really valuable.
• 24:03
  And as much as we value and believe in feeling your feelings, there's
• 24:07
  gotta be a time limit or a constraint around how much you will feel your
• 24:11
  feelings when it comes to things that are lower on your priority list.
• 24:15
  If work is your number one priority, then it's your number one priority.
• 24:19
  But if it's not, if it is two or three on your priority list, then don't give it 16
• 24:25
  hours of your day as far as the emotional and mental space that it takes up.
• 24:30
  Really evaluate that piece.
• 24:33
  face to face and evaluate that.
• 24:38
  Yes, please
• 24:39
  Well, I think, I think you brought up a really, I'm liking this idea
• 24:44
  of us talking about the mental labor that happens outside of work.
• 24:48
  Part of what also goes on too is that we're engaging all day long with a set
• 24:55
  of physiological responses to stimuli at work, and we all have a different,
• 25:04
  we'll say, neurological profile.
• 25:05
  Now, I'm not a brain scientist.
• 25:08
  I'm not here to express that kind of expertise.
• 25:11
  But what I can tell you is it's very important to recognize.
• 25:14
  What are your stress signals during the day?
• 25:18
  And then how are you managing those, when you're not working?
• 25:22
  Part of what we don't realize is that sometimes by solving problems at
• 25:26
  work, or getting things done, we get a real nice strong dopamine hit from
• 25:30
  that, like checkbox and it feels good.
• 25:34
  And we get somewhere else and we're like, I don't want to stop that.
• 25:36
  So our brain actually starts to want that feeling over and over.
• 25:41
  And what can happen is we easily can put ourselves.
• 25:45
  On the pathway toward the busyness trap simply because it almost, it feels,
• 25:51
  believe it or not, and everyone's going to say it doesn't feel good, but if you
• 25:54
  start to notice there's something in it that you're getting something out of
• 25:57
  that, part of my neurological profiles, I have the ability to, Mariah was
• 26:02
  talking about neurodivergence earlier.
• 26:03
  I have the ability to hyper focus.
• 26:05
  I can go deep on something big time.
• 26:10
  And so when I'm solving a problem at work, I'm going to go like a deep sea diver.
• 26:14
  I'm gone 48 hours.
• 26:16
  Boom.
• 26:16
  I'm going to go into it.
• 26:17
  That's fine.
• 26:18
  But if I'm doing that all the time, if there isn't a coming back up for
• 26:23
  air, if there isn't a way that I'm stepping off of that kind of treadmill.
• 26:30
  My, my body is not resting when I'm outside of solving that problem.
• 26:36
  We have to notice when we're continuing to do that mental labor.
• 26:40
  I just wanted to share that it's, if you want to look.
• 26:43
  if you want to get more snapping, if you want to look more into some of
• 26:46
  that, you can look into some of the what the Nagoski sisters have put out
• 26:50
  on some of their material on burnout.
• 26:52
  Fantastic yeah, I think there is a real emotional component to why we
• 26:58
  do what we do and how much we're working and how much we're taking on
• 27:01
  and the perfectionist tendencies.
• 27:04
  People pleasing is also another big one that comes in here of wanting everybody
• 27:07
  to like us and be happy with our work and this speaks a little bit to Mariah
• 27:13
  what you were talking about of about that letting go it can feel funny to
• 27:17
  let go because you know, how do you let go at the end of the day and not worry
• 27:21
  about whether you did a good enough job, or whether it was enough, or, you
• 27:24
  know, there's a lot of that happens.
• 27:26
  Yeah.
• 27:27
  And so we've been talking about this business trap a lot and Moriah,
• 27:29
  I'd love to hear more from your perspective about how intersectionality
• 27:33
  plays into the business trap.
• 27:35
  And if you could define that first for us a little bit, and then go into a little
• 27:38
  more detail for us, that'd be great.
• 27:40
  Absolutely.
• 27:41
  And I just have to say intersectionality is probably one of my favorite
• 27:44
  kind of theories, probably because it was the first one I read.
• 27:48
  And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is my life.
• 27:49
  This is my experience.
• 27:51
  And then being able to see it in all of the work that I do.
• 27:53
  So, First things first, crediting who came up with or who coined
• 27:56
  the term Kimberly Crenshaw coined the term intersectionality.
• 28:01
  She's a black woman.
• 28:02
  She's a scholar.
• 28:03
  If you've heard the concept of critical race theory, she also
• 28:06
  developed that or co developed that with some other legal scholars.
• 28:10
  But her work around it was really assessing how black women and women of
• 28:15
  color's experiences were made invisible by the legal structure and lack of
• 28:20
  acknowledgment of how race and gender impact your experience in the workplace.
• 28:25
  And so she was studying a case and the case was from the 60s and involved a
• 28:30
  really big company who had laid off a bunch of black women workers and
• 28:36
  they had a class lawsuit against the company and the the court said that
• 28:42
  they had to argue for either race based discrimination or sex based
• 28:45
  discrimination to prove their case and they argued for race based discrimination.
• 28:51
  And when they did, the court found there was no validity because black
• 28:55
  men worked at the company still.
• 28:57
  So how can it be race based if there are black people or black men who
• 29:01
  still work at the organization?
• 29:03
  And then when they argued for sex based discrimination, the court found
• 29:07
  their argument invalid because white women still worked at the organization.
• 29:10
  These women work at the organization, how can it be sex based discrimination?
• 29:13
  And Kimberly Crenshaw analyzes how the legal system literally made the
• 29:18
  experiences of black women invisible by not acknowledging the intersectionality
• 29:23
  of race and sex when it comes to discrimination in the workplace.
• 29:27
  Because of the policy around not allowing black women to work in this
• 29:32
  industry until later it was the last in,first out type of firing.
• 29:38
  And by virtue of that, black women were impacted greatly and experienced
• 29:42
  this unique kind of positionality.
• 29:44
  And so intersectionality really captures how systems of oppression or
• 29:48
  systems of inequality are intersecting.
• 29:51
  It's not just about being black, or it's not just about race.
• 29:54
  It's about gender.
• 29:55
  It could be about class.
• 29:57
  It can be about even religion.
• 29:59
  Whenever you think about these different characteristics or social dynamics and
• 30:03
  how there's a hierarchy associated with it, if you look at the intersections,
• 30:07
  you'll see how doubly impacted or triply impacted certain groups are in the
• 30:13
  workplace and in society more broadly.
• 30:16
  And so when we're talking about the business trap, we've talked a little
• 30:19
  bit about the impact to women of color, but diving a little bit deeper into
• 30:23
  that in the workplace, women of color are paid less than white women and men.
• 30:29
  Women of color are less likely to be promoted.
• 30:32
  I just learned recently that I think it's 52 percent of black women in senior
• 30:37
  executive positions end up resigning due to racially related or unfair treatment.
• 30:43
  52%.
• 30:45
  So of the small amount that are able to get promoted and matriculate
• 30:49
  up the corporate ladder, half of them aren't even staying or aren't
• 30:53
  going beyond that because of racism or race related discrimination.
• 30:58
  And you can't ignore the gender aspect of that.
• 31:01
  And so when I think about intersectionality, when I think about
• 31:03
  gender, I really do see it through a racial lens, not only because I'm a black
• 31:08
  woman and I can't separate out my gender from my race, but because I see that
• 31:12
  differences in white women's experience in the workplace versus Hispanic
• 31:17
  women's experience in the workplace versus Asian women versus black women.
• 31:20
  And those differences are so important to acknowledge when we're thinking
• 31:24
  about how do we create cohesive and collective action that benefits all women.
• 31:30
  We can't just use a blanket approach.
• 31:33
  We have to look at those intersections of race, of class, of language, of education
• 31:38
  of all these different characteristics.
• 31:40
  So that's a little bit about intersectionality.
• 31:42
  I can talk so much about it because it really is just a really
• 31:45
  powerful tool, a really powerful analytical tool for understanding
• 31:49
  what we're seeing in the workplace.
• 31:50
  You give us an example of how we would use that when we're trying to make
• 31:54
  a change in our corporate culture?
• 31:55
  at
• 31:56
  Absolutely.
• 31:57
  And we'll talk a little bit about it, but in my work, when I do equity audits
• 32:01
  it can be really interesting because oftentimes companies will give me some
• 32:05
  of the data they've already collected and they'll say most of our employees,
• 32:10
  let's say 82 percent of our employees, report no discrimination and positive
• 32:15
  treatment and all of these things.
• 32:17
  And they give me this very Quant kind of approach to assessing these things,
• 32:22
  and when I ask for greater detail around the gender differences, their race and
• 32:26
  gender differences, or a breakdown of that information, they either won't have
• 32:31
  the data because they didn't collect it, or when they do, I see that white
• 32:35
  males are the 82%, make up the 82 percent saying, Things are fair, things are fine.
• 32:41
  And so when we don't split things up by race or gender or use that
• 32:45
  intersectional lens, we miss the problem areas and opportunities
• 32:49
  for building solutions, right?
• 32:50
  So then if you are able to look at that other 18 percent and see that it was
• 32:55
  mostly women, it was mostly people who speak, whose English is not their first
• 33:01
  language or It was mostly black women.
• 33:03
  It was mostly people who haven't been able to been promoted.
• 33:06
  Then you can have conversations and you can start to ask what's going on there
• 33:10
  instead of just saying the majority of our employees experienced positive
• 33:14
  treatment, we can say the majority of women and women of color employees
• 33:20
  do not experience positive treatment.
• 33:22
  And what does it look like to begin to build solutions that center
• 33:26
  the groups that are most impacted negatively by inequity in our
• 33:30
  policies or our programming or our promotion and things of that nature.
• 33:34
  So that, that intersectional lens really helps you to actually see what's going
• 33:37
  on versus making blanket statements.
• 33:40
  And usually in favor of the company and their culture.
• 33:43
  I'd love to add some, another example that I see as well.
• 33:47
  I work when I work with teams.
• 33:50
  One of the reasons that intersectionality is so important
• 33:54
  is because it just provides us simply a lens through which to see.
• 33:58
  It's recognizing that often as you were saying, the lens we are using
• 34:03
  sometimes is benefiting perhaps a certain group that's at the table.
• 34:09
  I know some people, I'll just, I'll acknowledge, for some folks, and maybe
• 34:13
  even some folks listening, they get very nervous or uncomfortable when we start
• 34:17
  acknowledging these aspects of identity.
• 34:19
  And something I want to be clear on is we're not saying anything that
• 34:23
  isn't already existing in the room.
• 34:25
  I think that's one of the things that Sometimes I hear a pushback or
• 34:31
  a fear, even just the term, there's a concern that somehow another layer is
• 34:37
  being added that wasn't there before.
• 34:39
  But the reality is these aspects of identity are always in the room.
• 34:43
  We're just giving voice to them.
• 34:45
  So I'll give you an example.
• 34:47
  Sometimes when I go into organizations, usually, and every
• 34:50
  single organization I've ever worked with, there's always one group.
• 34:53
  That says that group is not doing their job.
• 34:56
  And then the other group says that group's definitely not doing their job.
• 34:59
  And they're like, Oh, yeah, we are this weird.
• 35:02
  And so this is a human behavior.
• 35:06
  This is a human thing.
• 35:07
  This is you'll see this everywhere you go.
• 35:09
  But part of what I think is really interesting that we have to acknowledge
• 35:12
  is that when one group says that, they have to also be aware, what
• 35:17
  else is being said in that moment?
• 35:19
  What is the context?
• 35:22
  Because if one group is saying this group isn't doing a good job, or what
• 35:25
  have you, and you look and actually you see that group also has a particular
• 35:29
  gender makeup has a particular racial dynamic has a pretty well.
• 35:34
  Now you have a situation where it's not just a question of one
• 35:39
  team's abilities or competencies.
• 35:41
  It's also a racialized perception, but the thing is, and this
• 35:47
  is something for those of you listening, you may not be seeing me.
• 35:49
  So I look white.
• 35:52
  I am white.
• 35:52
  I identify as both white and also I have Latina heritage based on what I
• 35:57
  shared previously about my family.
• 35:59
  And so one of the things that I need my white colleagues and counterparts
• 36:05
  to recognize is that for our colleagues of color or colleagues of different
• 36:10
  cultural background, this part of who they are is always in the room.
• 36:16
  It's never not there.
• 36:18
  So we have to recognize that's part of the story
• 36:22
  That's a great point.
• 36:23
  Ashley, and that's what the work is about.
• 36:26
  It's about making visible the invisible, right?
• 36:29
  Like those things, those little harms or microaggressions, or why do I keep
• 36:35
  getting overlooked for the promotion?
• 36:37
  Or, all of these questions that honestly, a lot of people of color, women of
• 36:41
  color colleagues are asking themselves constantly when they're at work.
• 36:45
  All these questions.
• 36:46
  It's always there, but whether we have the conversation and whether we acknowledge
• 36:50
  it is the only thing that changes.
• 36:52
  Acknowledging it, being open to that reality is so important.
• 36:56
  I've heard people say my black colleagues or employees never said anything that
• 37:00
  is a comment that someone has never said anything or, even if you think
• 37:04
  about harm caused by sexual harassment, or he never did anything to me.
• 37:09
  Because it's not your experience, you haven't observed it.
• 37:12
  It hasn't been explicitly identified or pointed out to you.
• 37:16
  Then we create this universal idea that it doesn't exist.
• 37:19
  It's my experience is universal to everyone's experience.
• 37:23
  But the truth is, when we're talking about the workplace, when we talk about
• 37:25
  harassment, discrimination, inequities, the workplace is not experienced the
• 37:29
  same by every employee, every leader, every person that walks through the door.
• 37:34
  Or remote work, even it's not experienced the same.
• 37:37
  Everyone's experience in part is not just shaped by who I am by an individual,
• 37:41
  whether I'm an extrovert or introvert, or, whether I have 10 years experience in
• 37:45
  this industry, or 2 years of experience, whether I feel qualified or are not.
• 37:50
  It's not just shaped by those things, it's shaped by the way we structure the
• 37:54
  workplace around race, gender, class, education roles, all of those things
• 38:00
  are really informing how people feel, what it feels like to do the work.
• 38:04
  And I feel like when we can start to have these conversations, we
• 38:07
  can open up, going back to your comment about setting expectations
• 38:10
  and what are your expectations?
• 38:13
  It takes so much of the guesswork out of your work life.
• 38:16
  And because a lot of this over performing and overworking comes from not knowing
• 38:22
  exactly where you stand and always feeling like you're coming off the back foot.
• 38:26
  And so I think these conversations are really important so that we can
• 38:30
  just talk about this stuff and get it out on the table and have that
• 38:34
  discussion so that people understand more about where they're at and.
• 38:40
  And where each other are at.
• 38:41
  And so we can really start to make those connections.
• 38:44
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:45
  I ask direct questions too.
• 38:47
  And it's not, and to be clear, it's not in my nature necessarily to be direct.
• 38:51
  I am an introvert.
• 38:52
  But I do find let's make it clear let's be real straightforward.
• 38:57
  What is your, feedback.
• 38:58
  What is your expectations?
• 38:59
  I like getting feedback early so I can adjust so that there and I
• 39:03
  document it so that it's never a thing of, you never told me that.
• 39:06
  I have written what you said about my performance.
• 39:09
  I have written down the feedback I've been given because I have found that
• 39:15
  I'll receive feedback and then at a 90 day evaluation or an annual evaluation
• 39:20
  something else will be brought up and I'll be like, interesting, because I
• 39:23
  asked you for feedback multiple times.
• 39:25
  I wrote down that feedback and it's inconsistent.
• 39:28
  And so things like that, I think, again, is very much a part of the
• 39:30
  experience for women of color.
• 39:32
  And so documentation can be your best friend when dealing with kind
• 39:36
  of the inequities and the unconscious bias of even our leadership within
• 39:41
  the organizations that we work.
• 39:42
  But you have
• 39:44
  Yeah,
• 39:44
  that there's a role for the areas.
• 39:47
  So it isn't true
• 39:49
  Tie back 1 other point for your listeners as well about how intersectionality
• 39:53
  also connects with the business trap.
• 39:55
  1 of the things I think is even a really important realization
• 39:59
  just to have for yourself is to recognize that the option to.
• 40:04
  Fall into overwork or to cultivate a culture of overwork is in fact.
• 40:11
  Its own form of.
• 40:13
  Privilege, right?
• 40:14
  And I'm referring, to a variety of different kinds of privileges, but
• 40:18
  specifically economic privilege perhaps racial privilege.
• 40:22
  I'll just, give you an example.
• 40:24
  I think we have to recognize what the historical financial dynamics,
• 40:30
  how that plays a role in the roles people have to carry in their life.
• 40:36
  To our point, now this is not true for all of my colleagues of color, all
• 40:41
  of my colleagues who are black women.
• 40:44
  This isn't true for all of them because there's never any group
• 40:48
  that you can qualify like that.
• 40:50
  But I think it's an important note to say, if you are someone who, is
• 40:56
  able to work 70, 80 hours a week, there is someone else in your life
• 41:02
  taking care of a lot of other things.
• 41:04
  other things.
• 41:05
  That is not a privilege that is afforded to everyone, right?
• 41:09
  So again, I think part of what, and for those of you listening who are
• 41:12
  the directors, the vice presidents in places, this is where I think
• 41:19
  we need to see The different needs people have in the workplace.
• 41:23
  Sometimes when we move into those leadership roles, it gets very, we're a
• 41:27
  little nervous to make changes, right?
• 41:29
  We don't want to be perceived as making too many changes, but
• 41:32
  I'll just give you an example.
• 41:33
  I, for my own parental leaves.
• 41:36
  I worked for a very small startup, a nonprofit for one of my leaves and
• 41:41
  they were very gracious and at least in the context that we're in and gave
• 41:45
  me a paid 12 weeks and that was great.
• 41:47
  And then for another place that was slightly larger still didn't have a lot of
• 41:51
  resources, but they were slightly larger.
• 41:54
  I had three paid weeks, three, one.
• 41:59
  Two, three.
• 42:00
  Right.
• 42:02
  Walk across the room at that point, okay?
• 42:05
  So we have to start bringing these conversations out.
• 42:08
  Now, was I still able to take more time?
• 42:10
  Sure.
• 42:11
  But was all the paid vacation used?
• 42:13
  Was all the
• 42:14
  do that.
• 42:15
  Not everyone
• 42:16
  again, I
• 42:17
  And not everyone would have been able to do that.
• 42:19
  every, not everyone can do that.
• 42:21
  So I think, again, the reason I want to point out how intersectionality connects
• 42:26
  with this busy, busyness trap is that 1 of the best things that each of us can do.
• 42:32
  Is start to stop contributing to a culture of overwork and start creating actual
• 42:38
  more human expectations on everyone, because that's where we all should be.
• 42:43
  The overwork culture is something that is is ironically.
• 42:49
  Relegated to just a few and that's where then again, you see the promotional
• 42:53
  pathways for that group of people as well.
• 42:56
  If I can add interestingly enough, oftentimes our relationship to work and
• 43:02
  overworking was learned when we were children and what we saw our families do
• 43:09
  and what their relationship to work was.
• 43:11
  If you saw your mom or your dad constantly working, you're more
• 43:15
  likely to think and normalize that behavior and bring it into your own.
• 43:19
  career path.
• 43:20
  So again, that's another time where reflection becomes really important.
• 43:25
  I actually, I feel like it was in a training we did or work we did
• 43:28
  together, but maybe I'm misremembering,
• 43:30
  done a lot of things.
• 43:31
  but getting people to start thinking about their relationship to work and their,
• 43:37
  and the culture of work that they have and beliefs around work that they have.
• 43:41
  And reflect on that and why that is.
• 43:43
  And if that's what they want, maybe it's something I've done
• 43:46
  with one on one clients, but
• 43:47
  it's familiar.
• 43:48
  We've
• 43:48
  okay.
• 43:49
  about beliefs about work.
• 43:50
  I think that is, I'm like, I think we just as a, as an organization
• 43:55
  we take our clients through what are your beliefs about work?
• 43:59
  And what are the are your behaviors coherent with your actual beliefs?
• 44:04
  yeah, and all of that even thinking about family dynamics like all of that
• 44:08
  I Tell my husband, I'm newly married, but we talked about what we saw in
• 44:12
  marriage growing up and different things like that my mom was a stay at
• 44:16
  home mom and wife and my dad worked and was able to matriculate and become an
• 44:21
  higher up exec in his company because of all the labor my mom did at work.
• 44:26
  And when I got married, I started just doing what I saw my mom do, but
• 44:32
  it wasn't realistic because I work.
• 44:33
  you know, it Wasn't realistic for me to do, to cook meals that my mom cooked,
• 44:37
  meals and cleaned and did everything and, homeschooled and raised seven children.
• 44:42
  So she was doing everything right.
• 44:45
  And I tried to do the same thing and like for the first few months
• 44:48
  of marriage, I talked, I stayed, I stopped and talked to my husband
• 44:51
  and I was like, I can't do this.
• 44:52
  Can't be realistic.
• 44:53
  And he
• 44:54
  And he was like, I never asked you to do it.
• 44:55
  I was like, I know,
• 44:56
  it's
• 44:57
  but my own beliefs about what a wife does.
• 45:01
  Oh, this is
• 45:02
  was my default.
• 45:03
  It was just my default.
• 45:04
  And so reflecting on my new role as a wife, reflecting on my role of my other
• 45:09
  roles as well can be such a powerful tool in helping me to decide what I
• 45:13
  want to be as a wife, as a person, as a consultant, as a, as a black woman in
• 45:18
  this space, like all of those things, you can think about the different roles
• 45:21
  you play and the different identities you hold and make a decision, a conscious
• 45:25
  decision about what you would like to.
• 45:28
  Who you would like to be in that role or how you would like to perform that role
• 45:32
  because if you don't make a conscious decision, your default will be what you
• 45:35
  saw, whether you saw it growing up or in college or in your 1st job, wherever
• 45:39
  those significant messages messaging was coming from, you will default to that.
• 45:45
  And so I think it's really important that we stop and reflect.
• 45:47
  I think critical self reflection is a powerful tool in this work.
• 45:52
  That's such a good point.
• 45:53
  That's such a good point.
• 45:54
  And I was raised by a single mom.
• 45:55
  I similarly saw like a gotta do everything, right?
• 46:00
  This is a really good point.
• 46:01
  And if like you actually, if you have a partner that is willing and able to do
• 46:05
  other stuff, it's so wonderful to sit back and let that happen versus, run around.
• 46:10
  Even today I was like, I told my husband, I have a mentally busy day today.
• 46:15
  I have the podcast and a few meetings, X, Y, and Z.
• 46:18
  And he was like, okay, I'm going to make breakfast and dah.
• 46:20
  What can I do to support you?
• 46:22
  And having that allows me to do what I'm doing and allows me to do
• 46:26
  things I enjoy and I'm passionate about and things like that.
• 46:29
  And I get that's a privilege too, not everyone has that.
• 46:32
  And it's a new privilege that I have, but I'm really enjoying.
• 46:35
  So highly recommend.
• 46:38
  Yeah, that's fantastic.
• 46:41
  And so to bring all of this into our companies, Mariah, you do
• 46:45
  what's called an equity audit.
• 46:47
  Can you tell us more about what you do in that work?
• 46:49
  So how we, the solutions that we can bring into the companies.
• 46:53
  And, speaking of work that I love.
• 46:55
  I love working with organizations and companies who are interested in change.
• 47:00
  They want to see what's possible, how do we do this stuff, and it usually
• 47:05
  starts with, again, reflection.
• 47:07
  Now, whether that's, I encourage you to do self reflection, which I do.
• 47:10
  Or reflecting on your organization.
• 47:13
  That's a part of the equity audit.
• 47:14
  I was just working with the organization.
• 47:15
  I just submitted their equity report that comes out of the audit that I do.
• 47:19
  But it started with looking at their policies.
• 47:21
  Looking at their policies.
• 47:23
  I even usually do a website review.
• 47:25
  Because that's who you say you are.
• 47:26
  So let me take a look at that.
• 47:28
  Let me talk to staff of different levels of the organization.
• 47:32
  What's their perception of the culture and who you are and what you do, your
• 47:35
  values, your behaviors, how you interact and treat people at different points
• 47:40
  of the organization hierarchy or the organization chart is really informative
• 47:45
  about who you are as a organization.
• 47:47
  So looking at these different things, policies, programs, how you
• 47:51
  behave, talking to those people are really important parts of the audit.
• 47:55
  And then at some point I'm usually talking to you through which equity
• 47:59
  framework makes sense for your work.
• 48:01
  So one organization came to me and they were like, we want
• 48:03
  to use the Jedi framework.
• 48:04
  So that's justice, equity, diversity, inclusion.
• 48:08
  After looking through their programming, I was like, it seems
• 48:10
  like you already practice diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.
• 48:14
  Is that a framework you'd be interested in leaning greater into,
• 48:17
  or would you like to lean into Jedi?
• 48:20
  And the reason that matters is because Jedi is a more systems
• 48:23
  focused equity framework.
• 48:25
  And by that, we're talking about policies.
• 48:26
  We're talking about laws.
• 48:27
  We're talking about.
• 48:28
  systems.
• 48:30
  Belonging is more so human focused.
• 48:32
  It's about how does it feel to be present in that place?
• 48:35
  How does it, are you able to be yourself, show up as
• 48:38
  yourself, things of that nature.
• 48:39
  And they decided they wanted to lean more into belonging.
• 48:42
  And so once they made that decision I was able to tell them where they had
• 48:46
  alignment and misalignment and make recommendations to close that gap.
• 48:50
  So that was some of the first pieces of work we do.
• 48:53
  And one thing, stages I like to take organizations through if they're
• 48:56
  willing to go through the process.
• 48:58
  It's starting with awareness and education.
• 49:00
  Some people don't have that awareness.
• 49:02
  So how can I bring awareness and education?
• 49:06
  And then it's getting them to engage in equity practice.
• 49:09
  And then the last stage and final stage is equity identity.
• 49:13
  Every organization has to decide what their equity identity is, how
• 49:17
  are they going to become a part of who they are, what they do, a
• 49:20
  natural outpour of all those things.
• 49:23
  Because my big thing as far as sustainability in this work is
• 49:27
  not increasing your trainings on equity or not increasing your work.
• 49:33
  But transforming how you do your work and getting you to examine and reflect
• 49:37
  on how you do your work and how you can incorporate and embed equity into that.
• 49:41
  And so once I get them to that stage of equity identity, they're saying
• 49:45
  this is who we are and it informs everything we do from here on out.
• 49:50
  That's how you get to sustainability.
• 49:52
  And so that's some of the work I, again, I could talk about it forever
• 49:54
  Now I
• 49:55
  enjoy the work.
• 49:57
  I really do enjoy doing the work.
• 49:59
  And when you get an organization that really wants to do it and go through
• 50:02
  that journey, it's just so much fun.
• 50:04
  That's some of the work that I get to
• 50:06
  Yeah.
• 50:06
  Thank you so much.
• 50:07
  This has been such a great conversation.
• 50:09
  I really appreciate you two coming on with me today.
• 50:12
  I always like to give our listeners three shifts that they can make today, either
• 50:17
  mindset or actions that they can take.
• 50:19
  What are three things that we could that we could suggest for our listeners today?
• 50:25
  So the two I have, they really are mindset shifts, but they can look like practices.
• 50:29
  So one is critical self reflection.
• 50:32
  I think that reflection not only is not natural in the current work environment
• 50:36
  because of how quickly we move, which we've been talking about throughout this
• 50:39
  entire conversation, but because it just We just become routinized and we just
• 50:45
  become entrenched in our daily routines.
• 50:47
  And so pausing and reflecting can be a powerful opportunity to consider what
• 50:52
  shifts you want to make, how you want to transform the work you do, how you
• 50:55
  want to show up at your workplace, how you want to show up at home, how you
• 50:59
  want to address busyness and, reducing those things that just aren't necessary.
• 51:03
  Reflection is really important to that.
• 51:05
  Number two.
• 51:07
  And this can be a part of your reflection is asking who benefits and who is harmed.
• 51:11
  If you are in a position of leadership, asking this can
• 51:14
  help you be a better leader.
• 51:16
  As far as thinking I'm benefiting from.
• 51:18
  Women of color doing extra work, but are they harmed by this task that
• 51:22
  I've just given them for Black History Month or for Women's History Month
• 51:25
  or whatever additional labor that you're observing from from the people
• 51:30
  that work within your organization.
• 51:32
  And if you're not in a position of leadership, or there is still someone
• 51:36
  over you asking in those meetings where you take on more or where you don't
• 51:40
  speak up and share your perspectives.
• 51:42
  Who benefits and who is harmed?
• 51:44
  And so I think that's a really important part of the reflecting, but it's a
• 51:48
  certain type of reflection that can get us to answer our own questions
• 51:52
  about what we need to be doing, right?
• 51:53
  I don't need to tell you what to do, but I can give you some
• 51:56
  encouragement of what to consider.
• 51:58
  I don't
• 51:59
  Thank you.
• 52:00
  Mine is from what we were discussing with intersectionality to recognize and
• 52:05
  this is primarily for those listening who identify as is primarily white
• 52:10
  recognize that race is always in the room.
• 52:13
  You never have it's never not.
• 52:15
  And that goes with any aspect of identity people who we are, the
• 52:20
  aspects of our gender or race, our class, these things are in the room.
• 52:25
  So let's go ahead and take that into account and consider how that plays
• 52:31
  a role in your relationships and what kind of awareness do you want
• 52:35
  to bring that into for yourself?
• 52:37
  And how does that inform how you lead?
• 52:40
  So that's one, always, it's always in the room.
• 52:42
  And then two, and this is for the individual.
• 52:45
  So the first one was more organizational.
• 52:46
  This is individual.
• 52:48
  I had a close friend once say I was giving empathy for something that they
• 52:53
  had to make a decision about work that was very hard for their family.
• 52:56
  I said, you must have not had a choice.
• 52:58
  And she said, you know what I've learned?
• 53:00
  You always have a choice.
• 53:03
  And for those who are listening, I just want to bring your locus of
• 53:07
  control into your awareness as we were talking about the busyness trap.
• 53:13
  I want you to notice where in your life are you ruminating
• 53:16
  on something that really.
• 53:18
  Ticks you off or makes you mad or you're working super hard at no
• 53:21
  one sees it And I just want you to recognize where in that situation.
• 53:25
  Do you actually have a choice?
• 53:28
  Because I hear that over and over again from folks.
• 53:30
  I don't have a choice.
• 53:31
  I don't have a choice.
• 53:32
  There are many things that keep us from having choices But we
• 53:37
  have to find wherever our sliver of power is in that situation.
• 53:42
  And too often we give that up too early.
• 53:44
  So recognize what do you actually need to be well and take ownership of that choice.
• 53:51
  Wonderful.
• 53:52
  Thank you.
• 53:53
  Thank you so much.
• 53:55
  So I would love if you're listening to this on YouTube, I would love
• 53:59
  to hear in the comments, which part of this conversation you like
• 54:02
  the most or what has inspired you.
• 54:04
  And if you'd like to hear more about the sisters in leadership process of how
• 54:08
  we help women to be more successful in the workplace and how this might work
• 54:12
  for you, download my private podcast on the seven step passport to promotion.
• 54:17
  It's on the sister smart.
• 54:18
  com website and the link is below in the show notes.
• 54:21
  And if you want to dive deeper into women's leadership and how to
• 54:24
  move up in your career, subscribe either on YouTube or wherever you
• 54:27
  listen to your favorite podcasts.
• 54:29
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• 54:32
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• 54:36
  and tune into more episodes on sister, smart leadership that will support you in
• 54:40
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• 54:43
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• 54:59
  male dominated industries and systems.