Latest / The Kink Consultant / Ep 36 - When Spanking Is Core to Connection: Kai and Sarah on Building a Healthy Kink Relationship (Part 2)

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Ep 36 - When Spanking Is Core to Connection: Kai and Sarah on Building a Healthy Kink Relationship (Part 2) · The Kink Consultant

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It's a King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
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on all things kink and dating, relationships and pop culture.
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So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
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to it. So let's go from there because
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the end of the story was basically you were both single
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and active play partners at that stage.
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Is that correct in saying? We started as both married,
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trying to find a way to make our marriage work, engaging with
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very strict boundaries only in this thing that we do together.
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Nothing like romantic or beyond spanking.
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As we both realized we were getting divorced, we started the
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process and everything we we were increasingly, I would say
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romantic, maybe even relationshipy.
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But we were very clear that we were not just in relationships
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with each other. We both had free reign to
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explore and do what we wanted with other people.
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And that made sense because you weren't even living close
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together and. We intentionally for six months
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or so took like a step back and really tried to like give space
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to process the divorce and think about, I mean, we're still
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obviously in contact a lot of yeah, to give each other, you
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know, space to do that. During this time too, I flew out
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to Hawaii and stayed for like 3 weeks at a time so that, you
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know, we could kind of like see what it was like to cohabitate,
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see if our day-to-day life kind of did meld well together.
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And so we were like testing the waters.
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We were trying to be really conscientious about it.
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It was a really measured way to like, try it out, step back, try
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it out, step back. This is a post divorce, like
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after the divorces went through and so we're both living on our
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own at this point when we started spending longer periods
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together and and dipping our toes into this more.
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But even as you're going through the divorce, all of this is
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really logical, right? Keeping some sort of distance.
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Emotionally, though, how are you feeling?
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Were you feeling like romantic feelings?
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I know myself. I love to fantasize.
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Were you imagining a life together?
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I'll speak for myself. I knew as much as I could
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possibly know anything at that point that that was the
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direction that I wanted my life to take.
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I knew that I loved him. I felt like it was likely that
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it would move forward. I was always quite scared about
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all of that though, because all of the what ifs, what if it
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doesn't? What do I do then?
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And all of those fears that I think we're all so familiar
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with. We are really familiar with and
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I love knowing that you experienced them too, because
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even when it felt so right, those fears creep in.
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Maybe even more so. It was so right, and so if it
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fell apart. Yeah, yeah, I.
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So it's, it's those situations of like, what if it does all go
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right and all of a sudden, like there's this truer version of
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life that you can imagine. I mean, we, we both had been
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involved in the spanking community and met different
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people and talked to people. And I think when we met each
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other, there were just so many connections on so many levels.
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It really was one of those amazing alignment things.
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No major areas of incompatibility.
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The compatibility is just really phenomenal.
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We were both at a similar place in our life and emotional
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maturity and approach to relationships.
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And we both been through therapy and I think all that helped.
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I think both of us were very also aware and intentional of
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this shows us what is possible when you can have a dynamic with
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somebody who really gets this, the way that you get this.
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But also that doesn't mean that we're going to be together
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forever. Like we still have to explore
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that and go through the steps. And knowing what was possible
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was enough for both of us to want to move forward in this
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very specific direction of wanting to be in a relationship
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with someone who shared this way.
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You could also support us in the other ways.
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And but no for sure it was a connection like I'd never really
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felt before when we started to dynamic and.
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Because I think what's unique about your situation and what's
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so hard to find is to match up both in the real world's life
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aspect of it, but then the fetish, the fantasy interest in
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spanking and punishment and discipline.
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When those two really align. I mean, it's lightning in a
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bottle and you're holding that. Bottle.
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That's scary. It is.
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I mean, we've talked a lot about there's just whenever power
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exchange is involved or, you know, especially in what we do
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with spanking and discipline too, there's just this extra
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levels of trust, extra levels of communication, extra levels of
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depth and vulnerability. It's a really powerful mixture
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for connection and relationship, but it is very also vulnerable.
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Yeah. I would say highly vulnerable on
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both sides. Tell me what it looked like.
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What questions were you asking each other?
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How are you processing all of this when you came together?
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When we were coming together, we were just.
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We're talking about a wide range of everything.
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We would talk all about ways we had evolved and the things we'd
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come to through therapy. We'd talk about what we wanted
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just our relationship to work like, look like outside of the
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power exchange dynamic or the disciplinary dynamic.
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Which of course is also innately messy because it's not like
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you're ever going to fully separate the power exchange from
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life and when you are sharing in equal ways in life, but there is
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this power exchange. When it comes to this other
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dynamic, it can get complicated. We had to feel our way through a
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lot of it. I wouldn't say we've ever had
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like any major missteps, but at times toes get stepped on a
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little bit and you just have to come back and talk about it
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afterwards and be able to be really honest with one another
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and kind and gentle, but be very honest with one another about
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what is working and what isn't working as well.
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When you say toes get stepped on, is that one sided where it's
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you Sarah, as the submissive, have your toes stepped on or is
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it both directions? I would say it's both
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directions, yeah. As an example, before Kai, the
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only way that I really knew to get a spanking to continue when
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I needed it to continue was to continue being really
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irritating, aggravating and pushy and bratty and everything.
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There was this one particular situation in which Kai actually
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just stopped the session and he was like, OK, talk to me.
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What's actually going on right now?
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Because this is feeling a little strange to me that like it.
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Was like a pretty hard spanking and it was like we were still
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going in it and it was almost getting more bratty and I was
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like, I just don't know where this headspace is at.
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And so I think it, I mean, that's kind of like a more
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obvious example of a situation in which like the way that I was
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used to getting those needs met was it it didn't work within our
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dynamic. And so we sat down and he was
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like, if you need it to be harder, that's like all you have
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to say is like, right now I feel like I need to be punished and
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you need to give it to me harder.
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And like, that's what we need. It's all of those sort of things
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that the tangibles and the intangibles where you're
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constantly figuring it out together and navigating it
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together. I mean, even when the fit is, I
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think, as perfect as it could possibly be, there are still
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going to be those moments where people are like, wait a second,
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like, what is going on here? Why does this feel strange?
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Because it is always a balance, you know, because a lot of the
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communication we do play in very select ways with other people,
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only with spanking. But a lot of what we do within
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our relationship now is more subtle rather than just like
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literal negotiation. You know, it's not often, it's
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not literally like I'm comfortable with this with a
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paddle, right? Like that's part of the power
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exchange and everything. And so there can be
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communication within a scene, right?
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Like if she's still being snarky with me, I know that she needs
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to still be spanked or something as simple as like, if you stop
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squirming for these next 10 and this will be over.
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And then if she wants to keep squirming, then she knows it can
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keep going. So there are ways we build that
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in, but that's not foolproof or for fail safe.
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OK, but going back to Sarah's original example, right where
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she kept bratting, was that a punishment or were you guys
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having fun? That was a punishment.
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This is relatively early on, but it was a punishment.
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But yeah, it was a punishment where on other cases it might
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have been an adequate punishment.
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But just in her headspace and what she needed it, she could
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tell that I was winding down instead of pushing a lot deeper.
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And it felt to her like that's not what she needed in the
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moment. And I think that there's so much
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power in just stopping and having a real conversation and
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communicating as opposed to like letting this confusion continue
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because you're just sort of like, it's a connection at that
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stage. A question that I get all the
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time and I never know how to answer it properly.
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So I'm really hoping you can give me like my template answer.
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If you enjoy spanking, how is spanking a punishment?
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I've actually written a few things on Fetlife about this, so
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if people want to go read more into my thoughts on this, they
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can go read my writings on Fetlife about this.
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But I think for people who share this, spanking is a medium for
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communication. It's not necessarily the
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punishment in and of itself because spanking can communicate
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different things like you can give a fun spanking.
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You know, one of the examples I like to use is that even in
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BDSM, right? Most people that I know enjoy
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orgasms, but forced orgasm can be a it's a common punishment in
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the BDSM world, right? Like I'm going to force you to
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have orgasms until it's no longer enjoyable.
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Spanking for us is just a medium of how we communicate the tone
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of the spanking. And I think this is where
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spanking and discipline fetishes deviate a little bit from some
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of the broader BDSM context in terms of how they think of
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punishment. But I think for us to withhold
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spanking is kind of like withholding our love language or
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trying to communicate with us in a different language you don't
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speak as well. Like we need to receive the
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messages we want to receive in the language we're most fluent
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in it and in the language that feels like love and connection.
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And so spanking is kind of the way we use to communicate that
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with each other and the tone of the spanking, you know, the
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rituals of it, how we approach disciplinary spanking, all of
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that factors into it. But but realistically, at the
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end of the day, I think if you're talking about altering
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behavior, it's the accountability between two
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people that really alters the behavior.
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And spanking is just the way that we communicate that in a
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way that actually feels healthy and right to us.
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On a much more basic level too, and this varies across spankos,
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but for me, I actually hate getting a spanking or I hate
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getting like hard spankings. I really don't think I'm a
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masochist. I do not enjoy the pain.
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It is much more like a core need than something than like the
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sensation of it that I desire. And it's, I would say much more
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in the power exchange. And it's where the spanking gets
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me emotionally and psychologically and sometimes
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even physically. It puts me that is place that I
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need to go to. So spanking is for me like
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almost a means to an end instead of like the thing.
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It's kind of like maybe going for a workout and you hate the
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workout, but it's the good feeling afterwards that makes it
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worth it. And as Kai was saying, I think
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it's a way that, at least for some of us, we are seen to.
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I spent my entire life trying to get spanked, being like, oh, I
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wonder if we can get the reaction I want.
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But nobody ever paid attention because they didn't share my
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photos show it didn't, you know, it wasn't the same language.
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But the fact that Kai sees me when I am behaving like that.
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And it's like, oh, I see you need that kind of attention
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right now. OK.
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It's really affirming in a sexual way, but a lot more than
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just a sexual way. Yeah, I always think it's feels
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like meeting someone who's finally speaking your language,
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like you've been speaking a different language the whole
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time. And I appreciate your
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explanation, Kai, on the difference and yours.
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Sarah, I have a much lazier approach in my explanation.
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I'm like, you know how you can eat food as a treat or for
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nutrition? I view spanking the same way
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because I like spanking. I like pain, the punishment
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aspect of it and the discipline and the lecture add something
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different to it. But yeah, I'll take any of it.
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So I understand people's confusion with me.
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But Sarah, you explaining for you?
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You don't actually love the spanking and the pain of it.
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It's that headspacey thing you're after.
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I mean, I like it all. And even for masochists who do
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like it more, most of the time when it's a stern headspace and
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they're scolding and it's more of a disciplinary reason, it's a
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very different headspace and it's not enjoyable in the same
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way or it doesn't feel the same. It's definitely a different
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feeling. I would love to hear more about
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how you built your dynamic because you knew you had a
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shared interest. You'd play together, but now you
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have to build sort of a real relationship and dynamic from
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scratch. I think the challenges inherent
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in this are how you balance those two things, having
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equality and viewing each other as equal partners, and also
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having power exchange, which is the approach that we take.
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So in building our dynamic, we built it very mutually.
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I'd say Sarah's a highly successful individual who really
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like in most areas of her life, just manages it exceptionally,
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right. She's very on top of her life.
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Occasionally in the past I have, you know, done discipline where
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it's a lot more basic, like you need to show up to your classes
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and study and whatever, right? Like the the basic things.
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But that's not even a conversation in our
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relationships there. It's just very high functioning.
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So a lot of the way we build our dynamic is we mutually set goals
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and rules based on things that Sarah wants to work on.
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And then spanking is just in that form how I hold her
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accountable. But the same is true in reverse
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for me. There's always things that I'm
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working on or ways I want to improve my life, and the
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accountability there maybe just looks more like it would in a
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regular vanilla setting where Sarah holds me accountable in
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different ways that don't involve switching or spanking
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or. Anything like that more involves
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conversations. Yeah.
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A lot of the rules are less dictated by me and more mutually
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agreed upon goals that are things Sarah wants to just
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improve in certain ways. And then the accountability,
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that's where it kind of falls into the power exchange and I
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have the authority to kind of dictate how that looks and how
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we uphold them. And but as we've been
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discussing, a lot of this is, I mean, it's always a work in
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progress because we're always changing and developing and
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learning and it's always shifting a little bit.
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And it's a matter of reading each other and also just really
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actively communicating when things feel really good or when
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they are not feeling as helpful or as good.
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Did you go down the formal route at all with contracts and
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written agreements? Has it always just been a
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conversation? Mostly been a conversation.
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There have been times where digitally we might have just
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like made a list of a few of the main rules for accountability,
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but never like a formal contract.
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We've read stories and domestic discipline contracts are
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fascinating and hot in their own way, but it's not something
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we've approached formally like that.
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But there are plenty of reasons to spank Sarah without contract,
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and for us it's been more of a fluid, kind of like naturally
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evolving thing. Conceptually the idea of a
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contract is very hot to me, but practically it either just
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hasn't been like necessary or just like didn't fit the vibe as
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much for us I think. And I think once we, especially
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once we started living when we were farther apart and we did
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more of like writing rules down and living together, it's just
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been much more of a fluid thing. It's something that's frequently
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on both of our minds, maybe, maybe especially me, but it
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hasn't fallen through the cracks at all, I don't think.
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Even when accountability things don't come up, I have ways of
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getting spanked every day so. So is it every day?
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I would say as close to every day as you can possibly get,
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unless I'm sick. Unless life is happening in a
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furious way. Do you have ritual around it
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like a bedtime spanking? Or how do you make sure you get
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it every day? Well, frequently they are like
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in the moment things where I will do something to
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intentionally poke the bear. And in that very moment, she's
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like, well, we're going to take care of this right now.
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She's ever seen Sarah's videos, which is probably most spankos
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everywhere, know that she doesn't have a self preservation
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instinct when it comes to her. She's brilliant, her mind, witty
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comments and she doesn't have a capability to keep it to
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herself. They they just have to come out.
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I would say usually there are multiple spankings, right?
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Not like big long extended things, but you know, like 60
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seconds to a couple minutes. Yeah, under normal
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circumstances, I would say probably almost nightly bedtime
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spankings. There are ritualistic aspects of
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that. OK.
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But we're not always talking about spanking when we talk
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about punishment. I know from various podcasts
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that I've heard, but I've even seen the list.
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Kai, you have a external to spanking.
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If spanking can't have it, you have a long list of alternative
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punishments. How do you know when you're
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going to employ one of those? That's a great question.
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Part of it is that prior to dating Sarah and living with
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Sarah, living in Hawaii, there is a very minute community here
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of spanking or punishment fetishes, discipline fetishes.
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So some of that was developed just trying to figure out ways
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to make long distance discipline work, which is still
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challenging, but it is this, you know, goes back to I consider
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myself to kind of have two separate but very tightly
16:53
interlinked fetishes because I do enjoy just discipline without
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spanking. Some of it depends on situations
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like if we have families staying with us even though our bedrooms
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very far away from our separate guest area of our house, we tend
17:05
not to employ spanking just because of the awkwardness of it
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possibly being overheard. So then corner time or writing
17:12
lines or punishment panties, which I've developed as one of
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my own personal favorite things. You know, there's other ways to
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have some correction and and it still activates that same
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headspace a little bit for both of us.
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Not the same way as like a true disciplinary spanking, but to be
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able to access that. Can I ask what punishment
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panties are? I think at one point I was going
17:30
to make a pair for you. People who are into this type of
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thing are probably familiar with different types of punishment
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mats and one of the common punishment mats, which is, you
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know, literally just an uncomfortable thing you sit on.
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So some people will use bristly door mats, but one of the common
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ones is the yoga acupuncture mats.
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So to have to sit on the little plastic spikes things,
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especially after a spanking, can be very uncomfortable.
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So I've originally was like working with somebody else on
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Etsy, but then I've just started making them myself, where I just
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attached those spiky acupuncture plastic spikies to the inside of
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panties so that every time you sit down or move around to them,
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you get poked with them. A lot of people, myself
18:07
included, struggle with explaining or understanding how
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spanking is different from sex, right, and how it's a different
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need. I sort of explained that it's
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adjacent to my sexuality, but it's not part of it necessarily.
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And I know it's different for everyone, even Spankos, but how
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does that play a part for you both?
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I would also describe it as adjacent and related.
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I would say it is related to sexuality.
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For me goes beyond sexuality and to what feels to me like a
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deeper need. And I have to imagine that the
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way that I feel about spanking is the way that most people feel
18:42
about about sex. It's that level of need or draw
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for us, or for me, I should say, sex can be like an occasional
18:51
dessert, but it's like not the main thing that I need.
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I frequently reference what Jillian Keenan wrote in her book
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about spanking being the main course of dinner and sex being
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dessert. Like you don't always have
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dessert, you don't even always want dessert, but you want to
19:06
eat dinner most nights. I understand why it is the main
19:09
course, right? Because it's the main course for
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me, but also for in real life and in spanking.
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I always want dessert. It's always preferable for me
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because I don't get spanked every night if it leads to sex.
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If I was getting spanked every day I could definitely leave sex
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for like a twice a week thing, but for me it's like I want it
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all in one. Which makes total sense.
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For us it is often separate, like we often have spanking
19:31
without sex, but also even dating back to before we were
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actually engaging in spanking. Well, I shouldn't speak for both
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of us, but we've talked a lot about this and I know it's true
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for both of us. Like spanking was the thing we
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always thought about during any kind of sexual activities.
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It's just the core of the sexuality. 100% I have never
19:50
masturbated and thought about anything other than spanking
19:53
unless someone was having sex for me as punishment.
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Everything has to be through the lens of punishment.
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But even though it is intimately linked, we frequently have
20:03
spanking without sex, and that's definitely the most pressing
20:06
core need. And I really think it's the only
20:08
sustainable way to do it then. Like sex is a lot of energy, but
20:12
I also want we're like, sex is a lot of energy because our core
20:15
need is spanking. So we're like, that's a lot of
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extra work that we're just not always signing up.
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For do I feel the need to put out that energy for what I will
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get back when I have already gotten my needs met?
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Yeah, and it's such a powerful need to have met something.
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I'm on one about this lately. I think I've mentioned it in a
20:31
very recent podcast when you were with another spanko.
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I have partnered with a lot of non Spankos who I teach.
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And at the end I always thank them and they're like, you're
20:39
welcome, right. And then when I play with a
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Spanko, I say thank you and they're like, why are you
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thanking me? I should be thanking you.
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And that's a major difference for me, that idea of both of
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your needs are being met when you're with another Spanko. 100%
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I do just enjoy the embarrassment factor of so make
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thank. Me for her spanking, so such.
20:55
A. She doesn't have to thank me for
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her spanking. Sadis.
20:59
Sadis right, I still am OK with it because I do think there is
21:02
an element of you were looking out for me to Sarah's point from
21:05
earlier, like someone noticed you, they picked up on something
21:08
and cared enough to spank you. I think that deserves a thank
21:11
you without any embarrassment on Sarah's part.
21:13
He makes sure it's embarrassing but to your point that's why
21:17
what you just described, the sense of only your needs are
21:21
being met, not your partners. That's why spanking with non
21:24
spankos has never worked for me because it's just missing a core
21:28
part of that mutual dynamic where it's this give and take an
21:33
energy. Hey, if you're loving this
21:35
episode, or honestly even just vibing with the podcast overall,
21:38
go ahead and tap that five star rating.
21:41
It takes 2 seconds and it really helps us grow this kinky little
21:44
corner of the world. Because that's what we're
21:46
building here, right? A space to feel seen, get
21:48
curious, and explore, all from the privacy of our own
21:51
headphones. And if something made you laugh,
21:53
cringe, gasp, or pause to reflect, drop a comment.
21:57
I want to know what stuck with you or shocked you.
22:00
There have been times in my life where I wish this could just go
22:03
away because even now at 36 years old, I have moments where
22:07
it gets in the way of me forming good relationships with people.
22:10
I would say I have spent decades of my life truly wishing and
22:16
believing that I could will this away from me?
22:20
Will this out of my identity? Will it out of my life.
22:23
I truly believe that if anyone could have done it, it would
22:26
have been me. I love their confidence.
22:29
So strong wills, so stubborn. So tenacious and stubborn.
22:32
So yes, I would say most of my life I have spent wishing that I
22:37
were not this way so that I could have what I see so many
22:42
other people having, so that I could just have the relationship
22:45
and build the life and not have this.
22:47
When I wasn't having this need met, it often felt to me like
22:51
this not extraneous thing, but like this thing that couldn't
22:55
possibly be met. That was always distracting me
22:58
from getting on with my life, continuing to move.
23:03
It's almost overwhelming with just it takes over your thoughts
23:06
and everything. Yeah, and that's the other thing
23:07
too. When you're not getting these
23:09
core needs met, like when I have been in most phases in my life
23:14
where it wasn't getting my core needs met, I would fixate on
23:17
spanking like all I could think about.
23:19
It's all I could do. I would neglect friendships.
23:21
I would neglect family. I would neglect my job.
23:24
I would neglect everything else in my life because I was so
23:27
fixated on this need, this core need that was not met.
23:31
I have to say on the other side of it, to have the core need met
23:35
and just be able to live life like I felt like I saw everyone
23:38
else living as a really powerful thing.
23:40
And to tie it back into some of the things we talked about
23:43
earlier too, This is why I think it's so overly simplistic to say
23:47
like, well, you like spanking, you know, like even like, well,
23:49
how can it be a punishment? You like spanking?
23:51
I think most spankos. I tried to talk to a lot of
23:53
different spankos. I think it's really interesting
23:55
to share experiences and a lot of us don't always like it.
23:59
A lot of us have very complicated relationships.
24:01
Those a lot of us, like both of you have said, just have points
24:04
in our life where we wish that this wasn't such a compelling
24:07
part of our life because it would simplify things.
24:10
It really narrows, you know, potential partners down and
24:13
narrows community down. But I also do believe on the
24:16
other side of it, and I'm not saying this is universally true,
24:18
but but this is, I think having this as a fetish and being able
24:22
to connect with somebody, it really adds a depth of trust and
24:27
intimacy and communication that builds this.
24:30
I think there is a real positive for it.
24:32
You know, it can be really hard and I've definitely wished at
24:35
times I didn't have it. But I think this relationship is
24:38
more powerful than any relationship I've ever had.
24:40
And I think part of that is that spanking and discipline creates
24:43
such depth and trust and communication, and it adds
24:46
another layer that really allows for something special.
24:48
Can I argue that point? I don't want to invalidate your
24:51
feelings because that is your feeling.
24:52
But lately there's a lot of discourse on my Instagram
24:55
because I'm a a firm believer that vanilla relationships can
24:58
be just as dynamic and complex. And a lot of people are like,
25:00
no, my kinky relationship was a lot deeper.
25:03
The connection was deeper. But I think it more speaks to
25:06
what Sarah said earlier about how we're having our needs met
25:09
for the first time. If vanilla people are also
25:12
having their needs met, it could be just as deep for them.
25:15
In my experience, You just unlocked that for me, Kai, when
25:18
you were explaining that I was like, wait, it is deeper for us
25:21
because we need to go to those depths.
25:23
But it doesn't mean that a vanilla person's cup isn't
25:25
equally as. Gillian Keenan talks about that
25:27
and a little bit in her book too.
25:28
But I've always kind of felt like that's like, there's
25:30
nothing shameful about being vanilla.
25:32
I think in some areas of our society there's like, oh, the
25:35
cool thing to do is to have a kink or whatever.
25:37
Like I don't think there's a value judgment there at all.
25:39
I think there's so many different layers and
25:41
complexities too. And we say vanilla meaning you
25:45
don't have a fetish as a focus of your sexual identity.
25:48
Your sexual identity is sex. But there's so many layers and
25:51
facets to that too. There's nothing.
25:53
I don't think there's a value judgment at all with being
25:55
vanilla, but I don't think it meshes well with our needs, or
25:59
at least for us. Like we were not able to build
26:01
the same depth of relationship with vanilla's because of our
26:04
needs and. How they align.
26:05
I really do rail against this idea that vanilla relationships
26:10
aren't as deep. And I think, wow, I have to tell
26:12
you, something is settled in my body because I've been churning
26:15
over this for weeks and it just keeps coming up in this
26:18
conversation. But Kai, I hope you don't feel
26:21
like I was sort of arguing with you or invalidating what you
26:24
said. It's just for me, I'm like, oh
26:26
it finally clicked. I never take offense about
26:29
discourse. I think This is why we enjoyed
26:31
talking to you for three hours the first time.
26:34
Spank you instead was I think this is how we grow.
26:36
I mean, this is part of why I love talking to just spank us
26:38
about their experiences too. We bounce ideas off of each
26:40
other. We there's not a lot of
26:43
reference points. It's not like we have a culture
26:45
with movies about being spankos. We we're figuring it out as we
26:48
go, yeah. We really learn from sharing our
26:50
stories with each other and I think it's important for people
26:52
to to share their stories and and hear different sides of
26:55
things and talk through these things.
26:56
There are no manuals for this. I always start with my clients
26:59
with I talk about love languages and then I have to sort of
27:02
relate them to kinks. We don't have a book of love
27:04
languages for kink yet. Now I'm like, OK, that's
27:07
something that would be helpful. We've sort of touched on it,
27:10
right? Someone did ask in Kai was kind
27:13
enough to share his Fetlife Ask Me Anything questions that he's
27:16
received and I think we may have answered it.
27:18
But if not, what is the most challenging thing about being a
27:21
spanko? I don't.
27:22
Know, I think for me it's probably been lack of
27:25
understanding and lack of acceptance.
27:27
It's just something that in a way feels it's hard for other
27:32
people to understand or relate to if they it's not something
27:36
they innately get or they're not really open minded.
27:38
And I think, you know, like I did try to talk to some of my
27:41
close friends as I was going through divorce very
27:43
realistically about why I was going through divorce because a
27:46
lot of them didn't necessarily understand.
27:48
It is just hard and a little bit isolating in that way.
27:51
And I think for people who are dating, it really creates a
27:54
difficult decision that you have to make.
27:57
Where, how, where does this rank in your needs in terms of a
28:01
partner? And there are definitely other
28:03
equally or more important needs, you know, just because Sarah's a
28:08
spanko, I couldn't be with her, you know, if she was really
28:10
dishonest or, you know, emotionally abusive or whatever.
28:14
But it is still such a corny. So yeah, I don't know, I think.
28:16
I I would say for me twofold on the one pragmatic level, finding
28:21
a partner is the hardest thing that I experienced about being a
28:25
spanko. The pool is just much smaller
28:28
than the general population and it is very difficult to find a
28:32
partner who fits you kind of on all the normal life levels and
28:36
all of the spanko levels. And then also you're at the same
28:41
point in your life and your developments and it makes sense
28:45
to go on so on. On a pragmatic level, I would
28:47
say that, but since I have really come into living this
28:51
really authentic life for me, and this ties to what Kai was
28:55
saying, one of my biggest challenges has been maintaining
28:59
the same level of depth with my friendships with vanilla people
29:04
as I am able to maintain with my friends in the fetish scene, in
29:09
the kink scene. It's as simple and complex, I
29:12
think as I am able to bring my whole self into my friendships
29:18
and relationships with people with fetishes.
29:20
Whereas there is like it doesn't it almost to some extent, it
29:23
doesn't matter how open a vanilla person is, they're never
29:27
going to be able to understand me on that level, which is OK.
29:31
And like so much of our life is of our lives is kind of bridging
29:36
gaps and understanding. But when you find a community of
29:40
people who just innately understand you and there's you
29:43
don't have to explain or struggle to explain or not.
29:47
We we don't have a lot of language yet to even explain
29:51
what this is even amongst ourselves.
29:53
When you don't have to bridge that, it just creates, I think,
29:57
a smoother path in friendships. Yeah.
29:59
Maintaining those other relationships I think has become
30:02
a little bit more complicated for me.
30:04
That makes total sense, yeah. I think we both were maybe not
30:08
necessarily expecting that, that the spanking community would
30:11
bring so many truly amazing people into our lives, but there
30:14
are just such phenomenal, intelligent, dynamic people in
30:18
this community and it's really brought amazing new friendships
30:21
into our lives. But it does make it challenging.
30:23
When it comes to finding a partner, it's not a pool, it's a
30:26
puddle because when you whittle it down.
30:28
However, there is a really great diverse group of friends you can
30:31
make in this scene for sure. And we're all, we're all lucky
30:34
to have found each other by going to these national parties
30:37
and really putting ourselves out there to meet other people.
30:40
For us, the national parties are community building and
30:42
friendship building. It's meeting like minded people
30:44
and meeting friends and quality time with friends and.
30:47
You really do put in the time and effort to maintain those
30:50
friendships that matter so much to you.
30:51
So as you were building your dynamic right, you had obviously
30:55
been open to playing with other people.
30:57
Did you ever have a conversation of should we close this off?
31:00
I know a lot of Spanko's do have this conversation of if you meet
31:03
someone will you stop playing and stop going to parties?
31:06
Yeah, we did. It's another one of those fluid
31:10
things too. We both talked a lot early on
31:12
about how it felt like for both of us, it would feel good to be
31:17
able to continue to play with others, like with boundaries.
31:20
But I would say it's a conversation that we continue to
31:23
have with one another including like not just generally, but
31:26
including about like individual people.
31:29
Like how would it feel if I played with XYZ person?
31:33
And I think part of the fee of what we've built is we both know
31:37
that if the other ever had an emotional response, it would
31:41
just be an immediate like, OK, that isn't working anymore and
31:44
that's OK. I don't think, as with most
31:46
things, any of the kind of structures we build for our
31:50
relationship, it's constantly open to revision in a way that
31:54
really builds in, for me at least, a lot of feelings of
31:57
safety and security in the relationship.
31:59
Kai, do you feel the same way? Yeah, we talked a lot early on
32:03
about how and especially as you know, as we really got into our
32:06
relationship, that all of our needs are met within our
32:08
relationship. This is like something that we
32:11
choose to engage in as something that feels good to us, but it's
32:14
not for us. This is, it's definitely not a
32:16
core need or, or an integral part to, to be open to playing
32:19
with others. It's just something that we, for
32:21
a variety of reasons, you know, feel compelled to and and feel
32:25
like we want to engage in. I totally agree.
32:27
I think having in, you know, they've evolved over time, but
32:29
having clear boundaries for how we play with others has really
32:32
helped. One of the questions I get a lot
32:34
is about veto power. I think it's a much simpler way
32:38
to look at it, which is just like my my respect for Sarah
32:40
will always come before anything else.
32:43
It's not veto power so much as if she doesn't feel comfortable
32:46
the situation. Why would I want to engage in
32:48
that? You know, first and foremost,
32:49
for our relationship to be strong.
32:51
And none of this isn't is necessary stuff.
32:53
But yeah, we've set boundaries over over how we have spanking
32:57
with others. And I think that allows us to
32:58
engage in it in a way that really feels OK and good to both
33:01
of us and. And of course this is going to
33:02
be different for so many different people.
33:04
Like some people do really have a core need to play with, you
33:08
know, multiple partners. And so, you know, I think it's
33:11
one of those things that every Spanko and every Spanko dynamic
33:15
kind of has to figure out together.
33:17
It's such an interesting thing because spanking is such a
33:21
powerful connection between the two of us, and yet getting to
33:25
share it with friends feels often opening or expansive more
33:31
than like scary or anything else.
33:33
It feels like a natural a natural part of being a spanko
33:38
for me in any case. Yeah, like the enjoyment is
33:40
multiplied by having all of these people.
33:43
Not going to lie, I stole that from Sister Wives opening.
33:46
It's like love is multiplied, not divided, but it works here.
33:52
Sides, I love to watch him spankings and then I'm not the
33:56
one suffering. I can just enjoy it and I can
33:59
see all the little intangible things that I can't see when I'm
34:02
experiencing it so. I remember you said that when he
34:05
spanked me and I was really curious.
34:07
I was like, well now I want to know what his face looks like.
34:09
For us, we are like romantically in relationship wise and
34:12
sexually we're monogamous with each other.
34:15
So spanking within the defined boundaries is kind of the way in
34:18
which we're open. But I think for us it works in
34:21
that way where we have our space within our relationship and and
34:25
we have this specific way where it feels really expensive to
34:28
engage with funds. Makes total sense like and it it
34:30
is so fun. It's really hard to explain the
34:33
enjoyment of parties and really expanding your group unless
34:37
someone shows up to it. So I would recommend anyone who
34:40
has an opportunity to go to a National Party no matter what
34:43
their kink or interest is. Even if it's a general fetish or
34:45
kink party, I would highly recommend checking it out.
34:48
As a hyper introvert, I can agree it is really affirming.
34:52
It's really affirming and good. Oh, I love that.
34:54
Thank you, I am not an introvert at all and I just forget that
34:58
that can even be scary for people.
35:00
Yeah, it's, it can be very, very overwhelming.
35:02
It's worth it to go have the experience to be in a room full
35:06
of people who are like you. Yeah.
35:07
And honestly, it's even if you're introverted or even if
35:09
you don't feel like you would feel comfortable being spanked
35:13
at something like that, it is still entirely worth it to go.
35:16
The main part of us going is we just like, you know, we spend
35:19
most of our time sitting in rooms with friends or new people
35:22
talking and hanging out. And it's just so awesome to
35:25
connect with people who are truly like minded and it's such
35:27
an amazing community of people. Have you ever misstepped with a
35:31
spanking or punishment Kai and how did you repair and come back
35:36
from that? As part of our dynamic, we've we
35:38
discussed that too, where if the headset, which is not to say,
35:41
you know, if, if something happens and it feels like
35:44
discipline is warranted, it, it might be as simple as like I'm
35:47
in a really bad headspace tonight, like let's just revisit
35:49
it tomorrow or, or like I don't feel like I'd be spanked right
35:52
now. We definitely and and Sarah has
35:53
safe words and that's always respected.
35:56
I don't know that I've like had a big misstep to where I felt
35:59
like I've had to apologize or anything like that, but I do, I
36:03
do think it's very important. Like you're not omniscient and
36:06
all powerful as a top, right? Like I think it's really
36:09
important to acknowledge as a top that you do make mistakes
36:12
and you're not perfect. I mean, I think part of that is
36:14
like the example earlier, like stopping a spanking if things
36:17
just don't feel right to, to say like, Hey, you know, I think
36:20
there's a feeling as a top sometimes in that role, like you
36:23
just have to stay in top mode. So I think trying to be humble
36:26
in that way of being like, Hey, I really don't know what's going
36:28
on here. Can we talk through this?
36:30
I guess I just say just try to be humble and honest about like,
36:32
I'm not perfect. Like I not every, you know, I, I
36:35
guess, you know, maybe a sorry, I know you gotta do I sort of
36:40
adjacent experience. Like I've definitely had like
36:43
times where I've planned a certain scene with somebody at a
36:47
National Party and things got chaotic and I've ended up
36:49
happening. It's not at all what was hoped
36:51
for or expected. And people have felt a lot of
36:53
disappointment. But I think, you know, just just
36:55
owning that, honestly, as a human, the managing times in a
36:58
National Party is hard. And I'm not always able to give
37:01
the headspace an experience that I think people see in my videos
37:04
or maybe want to have, even though, you know, I do my best.
37:07
And yeah, I don't know, I think, I think just being humble and
37:10
about the fact that that you're not an omniscient top, you know,
37:13
you're not a perfect top. Though to have to learn and
37:15
receive the feedback you didn't give someone the experience they
37:18
were hoping for. Maybe that's just me.
37:20
Like that is really tough for me to overcome, so I've enjoyed
37:23
hearing your perspective on it. Like sometimes you have to
37:25
accept that you are human and these things happen.
37:28
Dynamic or chemistry is always going to vary between people,
37:32
and so you may go into a scene with somebody expecting that
37:35
it's going to be one thing, and then it ends up being something
37:37
else entirely. And those are a lot things you
37:40
just can't control. I think there's another side,
37:42
too, of the question you were asking in terms of like a scene
37:46
not going quite right or something.
37:49
And I think the other side of it too, is that you have to, it's
37:53
important that you're with a partner, a play partner who you
37:56
can trust. This isn't feeling good right
37:58
now because he's not omniscient. Even if he operated, you know,
38:03
quote, UN quote perfectly all the time to like his own very
38:07
high standards. To be clear, there are just
38:09
going to be moments where things aren't aren't vibing right.
38:12
Also, I think is really important to be able to trust
38:15
your partner to say, you know what, like I got to use my safe
38:18
word because right now something about this isn't feeling good.
38:21
So. When safe words come up, I
38:23
frequently talk with people I'm spanking about that too.
38:25
Just like that's a an aspect of the trust and is being able to
38:28
trust and you know, I know for a variety of factors it's not
38:31
always possible. We have to recognize that too.
38:33
But being able to trust it lets me be more myself if I can trust
38:38
that you will stop it when things, if things are going in
38:41
a, in a poor way. And I think one of the points of
38:43
pride is that I try to monitor someone very closely.
38:46
I, I try to monitor their breathing and, you know, their
38:49
reactions and, and a lot of different things about how
38:52
they're, you know, and even medically how their skin looks
38:55
and whatever, how they're taking something.
38:56
But that's a poor substitute for I still have no idea what's, you
38:59
know, mentally going on or what their condition is.
39:01
And so. And I think it's an important
39:03
note that you can call a safe word even if you can't name the
39:07
reason you're calling it. You need to.
39:09
Have a reason? It just all it has to be is
39:11
like, right now, something doesn't feel good.
39:14
That's enough. Another reason to call it.
39:16
And I've had people safe word and as a top I've never felt
39:20
anything other than like OK good.
39:21
I'm glad they stopped this scene when it wasn't going right for
39:24
them. I've never felt upset that a
39:26
safe word was used or anything. I'm always just like.
39:28
And I think that's a sign of a good top is someone who can
39:31
accept that a safe word's been used and something has happened
39:34
and we don't take it personally. We just sort of are like, OK,
39:37
let's assess the situation and figure it out.
39:40
Do you 2 have like different levels of infractions when you
39:43
play together? Like are there rules of like,
39:45
OK, well we both know that you were a little extreme in your
39:49
behavior, so it's leading to XYZ.
39:53
Involve me keeping myself and my body safe, probably.
39:58
Most of the more serious things. Yeah, most of the more serious
40:01
things are are me keeping myself and my body safe.
40:03
An example of a moment in which I immediately knew I was in a
40:08
great deal of trouble and he immediately switched was when we
40:13
were moving a bed and he went to get furniture sliders.
40:16
And I, when he was gone, I was like, I can just do this.
40:19
And I moved to bed by myself and he came in.
40:23
And he was like your wrist, like what is happening right now?
40:27
Your wrist has so many problems. Yeah.
40:30
And this is this is where things are specific to the dynamic.
40:32
It's it's for very specific health reasons, specific to
40:35
Sarah, that we have rules so that she doesn't badly injure
40:39
herself. And so, yeah, there are those
40:41
kind of touch point things where I'm like, oh, OK, right now,
40:45
right now I'm in very serious trouble.
40:47
And I think those those spankings are much more
40:49
ritualized. Those are much more.
40:51
There's going to be corner time beforehand and there's going to.
40:54
She's going to stand in front of me and be scolded.
40:56
Yeah, Oh my gosh, you're hiding behind your shirt.
40:58
I love it. But to the point, I mean, that
41:01
is the exact reason when it switches to not being fun
41:04
anymore when you hit to those points.
41:07
And then, Sarah, have you ever come out of a punishment or
41:10
spanking and thought, yeah, what I did was still worth it?
41:12
Not when it comes to the more serious things, but when it
41:15
comes to should I have put that fake bug?
41:20
Recent example fake cockroach that I laid down in bed and had
41:24
a fake cockroach under me. Yes, I should have done that.
41:28
And I'd do it again. So yeah, I would say, you know,
41:30
the the sillier things or the, you know, like poke the bear
41:34
things frequently. I'm like, yeah, that was worth
41:36
it. I am sorry right now and also I
41:38
will do it. But like the wrist example, do
41:42
you think that it makes you think twice the next time of
41:45
like, oh, I really do need to look out for my body right now?
41:48
Yes, And it is somewhat about, like, avoiding the spanking, but
41:52
that isn't mostly what it's about.
41:54
It's much more about recognizing like, oh, wow, yeah.
41:57
I really overstepped the line of, like, what it is good for me
42:02
personally to do, you know, in my life or with my body right
42:05
now. That is a really excellent
42:06
reminder of, like, that there are reasons that we don't do
42:10
that again, Like having somebody who sees that and knows it and
42:16
cares about it and, like, does the thing reminds me emotionally
42:20
and psychologically. Like there are reasons we don't
42:23
do that. They're like that much worse
42:25
consequences than this spanking can happen if you continue doing
42:29
that sort of thing. That's what really triggers it
42:31
for me. That sounds like exactly the
42:32
scolding that you probably, I would guess that probably the
42:38
scolding, but discussion like the conversation that we had
42:40
before the spanking begins is maybe even more powerful than
42:43
the spanking just like about why we even why this is even a
42:46
thing. And yeah, I swear, I swear the
42:48
accountability aspect I think really comes in right.
42:50
It's like you're far more likely to go regularly to a gym if you
42:53
have a buddy who's meeting you there who's expecting you to be
42:56
there. Yeah, with everything going on
42:58
in in her life, you know, and, and Sarah is highly athletic and
43:02
strong it. But, you know, left to her own
43:04
devices, she might not think as much about this.
43:06
But to have somebody who's like, I care about your long term
43:08
health and how you treat your body, and I'm not cool with this
43:13
is a reminder. Like, OK, maybe I don't do this
43:15
thing that might put myself at risk.
43:17
I mean, it's a good reminder. It's helpful because especially
43:20
if not calling anybody stubborn, but if you were prone to being a
43:24
little bit stubborn, this can get you out of that cycle of
43:27
stubbornness. Yeah.
43:28
It can. Again, I think part of it is
43:30
just it being seen and taken seriously by somebody else.
43:34
Yeah. It's not just about me doing
43:36
what I want to do because I want to do it.
43:38
It is that somebody else wants to share in my life, like, wants
43:43
me to be healthy and not hurt and all of these things.
43:47
And that's motivating, yeah. It doesn't hurt that every time
43:50
she sits down for a few days, she's reminded that she got
43:52
spanked, so that doesn't. Well, it does still last a few
43:55
days, the pain. The really intense ones, which
43:58
happens sometimes. Oh yeah, definitely.
44:01
Sarah definitely doesn't bruise or Mark.
44:04
I don't. Really.
44:05
But definitely she can feel it for yeah, a while, a little.
44:08
Bit part part of my weird condition is that I just don't.
44:11
I don't bruise, which is very disappointing.
44:13
That is disappointing. It was so you've never really
44:17
bruised. It wasn't like a OK, it wasn't a
44:19
oh, I build up a tolerance because that happens in our
44:22
space too. Where people just get so used to
44:24
it they stop marking. My body gets so used to it that
44:28
I stop turning red, which is really upsetting.
44:30
That is so sad. So much so yeah, my body does
44:36
does do some of that too, but I basically just don't work.
44:39
And then she has to remind me, like, I know I'm not nearly as
44:42
red as, you know, somebody you spanked recently.
44:44
But this hurts really badly, and it's really hard.
44:47
I love that level of communication though.
44:49
Like even like you still need the basics even if you are
44:51
spanking her every day. You have really been through a
44:55
lot, both of you and your journeys.
44:56
It feels like you have some really good advice.
44:59
What would you just say to other people who are where you were
45:02
even five years ago? One of the best things that I
45:05
ever did for myself was not just look for play partners in our
45:09
community, but also seek out friendships.
45:12
It helps in so many different ways.
45:15
I think it helps number one in feeling less.
45:19
I spent so much of my life feeling like I was crazy or like
45:21
crazy to be so different from everybody else.
45:24
So to have it, have how I am, feel normal and accepted and
45:30
understood was profound for me. But even and beyond that, beyond
45:35
the like building of the friendships is building that
45:38
network and that community of people also helps in really
45:41
pragmatic ways. It helps when say somebody
45:45
reaches out to you on Fetlife and is interested in playing and
45:49
you can reach out to your network and say like, has anyone
45:52
else heard of this guy? Has anyone else played with him
45:55
or a girl or you know, whoever. And you also just meet so many
46:00
new people through those communities.
46:02
I think being instead of just using Fetlife like I did early
46:07
on as a way to sort of try to find spanking partners, using it
46:13
actually as a way of getting to know a lot of different people
46:17
helped me a great deal when I was hyper focused on just
46:20
finding a partner. I found it a very frustrating
46:23
space to be in when I used it much more as this is a community
46:27
of people who understands this side of me.
46:30
That's when a lot of things started opening up.
46:33
And in order to do that, like one of the things that you're
46:35
saying without actually saying is when you show up for your
46:38
community and be in your community, as opposed to looking
46:41
at us as a way to just meet your person instead of just looking
46:45
at what you can take from the community.
46:46
Not that you're being a taker. Showing up in the community is
46:49
one of the best first steps you can take.
46:51
Yeah, it's not just a means to your own person personal end.
46:54
That was really good. So what is next for you both we.
46:56
Have a lot of different things going on in our own life one of
46:59
the things that's really driven us and compelled us is just to
47:02
really try to make this more to try to help normalize this.
47:06
You know, I think we both grew up feeling a lot of shame about
47:08
this. And I think that the generations
47:10
today get earlier exposure to the Internet and finding
47:12
communities. And so I think everything Sarah
47:14
said about finding communities is so true.
47:17
I think why we love sharing our videos in pictures is just to be
47:21
able to relate to people that, hey, this is just one more
47:24
normal other way of expressing yourself and your sexuality.
47:27
It's OK that this is all a part of you.
47:29
So one of our longest and best friends in the scene is Mookie
47:34
Darling. And Mookie and Amanda are
47:36
currently working on a book to collect the stories of people
47:42
who are fetishes, whether it's spanking and disciplined
47:44
fetishes or other fetishes. And I think that fits really
47:47
well into things that are really important to Sarah and I, which
47:50
are sharing stories and helping normalize this and how many
47:53
people see that they're not alone.
47:54
And all of this is just a very valid way to express yourself.
47:56
So the links are all over Fetlife.
47:58
If anyone listening has a fetish or or sharing your story,
48:02
whether it's, you know, as part of this story collection where
48:05
they're really trying to collect stories or even if it's just
48:07
with your community, I think it's really important for us to
48:09
show up in that way for each other to just make this a normal
48:12
experience. Thank you Kai.
48:14
I do find it hard to self promote which is unfair to
48:16
Mookie even but complicated. Pleasures.ca, if you go to that
48:21
website, you'll learn more about the project and the book we're
48:23
hoping to put together. And I was honored when Mookie
48:27
asked me to be part of the project because we met and I
48:30
said the really important thing for me is that you include the
48:32
sacrifices we sometimes have to make to pursue our authentic
48:37
lives. And she asked me back if I'd be
48:39
interested in joining her on this project.
48:41
We're already getting so much help, including from Sarah, on
48:44
how to navigate this, the right questions to ask, and how to
48:48
collect stories. I guess ethically, but
48:50
authentically too. It's really important.
48:52
It's part of why we play with. There's a part of why we share.
48:54
Sharing these stories and sharing experiences and
48:57
connecting in these ways is really crucial.
48:59
For me, it is all about de shamifying and de stigmatizing
49:03
all of this because we do have to handle it.
49:05
All right. Well, it was such a pleasure to
49:07
have you both on. I'm really excited, especially
49:10
because you are part of my real personal community of people who
49:13
I've met in real life, like my online community.
49:16
And it's as hard as it can be to have this fetish and I've lived
49:19
with it and hidden it for so long.
49:21
It is exceptionally special when we get to connect with each
49:24
other and relate. It is.
49:27
Awesome. Thank you.
49:29
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave
49:32
a review and share it with anyone who might find it
49:34
interesting. And if you have any questions or
49:36
topics you'd like me to cover in future episodes, feel free to
49:39
reach out e-mail info@thekingconsultant.com.
49:43
Until next time, keep on kinking on.