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How Iconic Campaigns Shape Culture with James Bray · We Built This Brand

• James: There's reasons why, you know, flow. There's reasons why. You know, Dr. Rick, those two characters did not just like come out of thin air because of something happened in society and it was a reaction to that. They're a dedication to an idea and a commitment to building those sub-brands over time. And therefore become talked about in the spaces and places where we walk around, not just in ad industry. So we often joke about like. You know, our goal isn't always to win awards at the big award shows. It's what's more rewarding for us is if the Uber driver knows your campaign. Chris: Welcome to We Built This brand where we talk to the creators and collaborators behind them servicing valuable insights to help your business grow. Today I'm speaking with James Bray, executive creative director at Arnold. We dive into James' journey. From being inspired at 14 by a single Nike commercial to building a career at top agencies like DDB, Fallon, Goodby, Silverstein, and Arnold. We also dive into why truth and authenticity form the foundation of standout creative, how healthy jealousy and competition can push boundaries and Arnold's philosophy of leading culture rather than simply following it. So join me for this conversation with James Bray and discover the insights and stories behind work that truly moves culture. All right. Well James, welcome to the podcast. James: Thanks. It's great to be here, Chris. Appreciate it. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Glad to have you on today to, um, talk about your time at Arnold and, um, just, I mean, in, in a sense, like what it means to, I think be creative I think is gonna be a big theme today with a lot of what you all do and, um, you know, the approach you all have to, um, being an agency. So I'm excited to dive into that and talk to you more about it. Um, so I always like to start by getting to know you a little bit better, and I would just love just. It doesn't have to be long, but a brief overview of kind of like how you got to where you are today. James: I don't know that it's brief. I've been in the business long enough that it, it's a long, drawn out story. I was one of those lucky people that I, I watched the commercial when I was 14 years old and I said, I want to do that. I got chills and I went, holy cow. That, that's incredible. You can make somebody feel like that in 30 seconds. But I didn't necessarily overcommit to it. I went off to college. I studied, uh, English and art. Um, after college I started to kind of doodle, right? Ideas and books and slowly but surely built my own book. I did not go off to a portfolio school or do any of that. And then eventually just became friends with people in the industry and they kind of helped me along a little bit. And then I landed a job eventually in DDB, New York, um, was there about five years. Worked on Hershey's, New York lottery, um, Michelin. Then I went off to Fallon in, uh, Minneapolis. Which was quite an incredible step up, um, an incredible environment. David Lubars was the CCO at the time, and the creative department was a who's who of people. It was a, it was unbelievable. All I ever wanted was to just get something on the walls. Um, I worked on BMW Holiday Inn, Citibank, and then after that I went off to Goodby Silverstein and Partners. Um, another incredible experience. Met a lot of really smart people. Got to work on Netflix, NBA Comcast Sprint. And then after that I took a really big gamble and I went to a small agency called m and c Saatchi, which was a spinoff from Saatchi and Saatchi. The brothers had. Been ousted and decided to start their own name using the same name, which was very confusing. Um, but that was a, that was an experience where I was down in Los Angeles and we, when I started there, we were 18 people. When I left, we were 120. Um, and then after that experience I went to Arnold. And at Arnold I worked on, um, number of accounts ranging from QSRs to financial to automotive. Chris: Wow, that's quite the journey. So you, you, you said, you said Commer a commercial inspired you to become an advertiser or work in this industry. Was it a specific commercial, a set of commercials? What was it? James: It was a Nike spot. Um, and you know what? I've searched for it and I can't ever find it. It was a spot where a man got up in the middle of the night in New York City. Maybe it was like 4:00 AM to go for a run and projected on the buildings. Were athletes, you know, as inspiration. So it was like John McEnroe, Andre Agassi, Bo Jackson, Michael Jordan, you name it. And even when I talk about it now, you can see the hair stand up on my arms. And that's like, that's the barometer that I go by for everything that I do. Does it, does it give me, does it give me the chills? Does my hair stand up? And then, um, then okay, cool. We might have something here. So that's kind of what drove me to it. Chris: That is, that is fascinating. James: Interestingly enough, I remember when I kind of got outta college and I said, well, what am I gonna do with this thing, this desire? How do I make it a reality? And I started reaching out to a few people and one guy I talked to, um, was a creative director. He said, you know what? I want you to go look at all the award show annuals. And if you think you can do that kind of work, then you'll get a job. So I remember I went off to, like Barnes and Noble, I had no idea what these books were. I sat down, I looked at like the Art Directors Club one show, um, DNAD, all of them. And immediately the, the hair stood up on my arm again and I said, yeah, this is absolutely what I want to do with my life. Chris: I, I always find it interesting when you're younger trying to figure out exactly how to put words on what you wanna do. I feel like that's a journey for every kid of like, oh, I found this thing that made me really excited, but I have no idea how to put it into words. Like, if I were to explain to you what I'm doing today, as, as at 14, I would've been like, that's really cool. How do you do that? And. You know, part, part of what I like about this part of the conversation we built this brand is always that, like this is for those kids that are like, how do I get to be, you know, in James' shoes? How do I get to that place? And a lot of times it's, you know, it's, it's good fortune and good skill combined, but there's a lot along the way that. It takes to get there and the education's a key part of that, so that's, that's really cool. Um, you, me, you mentioned getting chills. Um, and obviously I wanna talk a little bit about creativity with you today and, um, you know, and finding those creative moments. Um, how do you get to a place where you, when, when you're really starting out, like. That, you know, you're on the right direction with, with the creative for a client? Or how, how do you get those, get to the point where you get the chills, so to speak? James: I think the, you know, you've probably heard this a lot. Um, it's just finding the truth. The reason why we love comedians is we slap our knee and go, oh, that's so true. It's just that somebody hasn't been able to shine a light on it, or somebody hasn't been able to put it quite into words. Somebody hasn't exposed it in the way that they've exposed it, that makes you go, oh my God, that thing that happens is so true. It's so funny. I can't believe he, he knows that. So I thought I was on an island and I felt this weird thing on my own. I think that's the key, is trying to strike that thing that people know. Is out there, but they just, nobody's talking about it or haven't been able to put it into words. If you hit that place, then the goal is to not mess it up because you know you can easily do that. Chris: Yeah. So finding that truth and figuring out how to then communicate that to other people. James: I think so. I think that's. That's 90% of the job. And listen, that's not just a creative's job. That's everybody's involved. Their job, the strategists, uh, incredibly important in that role. They have to be the ones that are out there mining for those little insights, those little nuggets, those little truths that, that spur the idea, right? They're, they're the ones that create the inspiration in many ways for the creatives to then go try to find, um, a way to express that truth. Chris: Yeah. So then you're constantly looking for inspiration. Where do you typ typically find that inspiration? James: You know, it's a really good question. 'cause I'm on a new journey doing just that. Um, it's inter, like, when I first started out, I was incredibly curious. I was super inspired. I was super passionate. Then I became jealous. Um, and I think jealousy is a, an an interesting thing, like jealousy. Um, I just came back from can, right? And I went into that and you go into that going, I know what this is all about, whatever, whatever, whatever. And you, you might ppo certain things and you know, and it industry's changed. It's all about data or it's all about media. It's all about the gamesmanship that's played in these award shows. But I'll be damned if I didn't walk out of there jealous. Um, if you're not jealous, um, then you don't want to compete. And I think if you don't want to compete, then you're, you're not curious enough, you're not inspired enough, you're not passionate enough. And I think, um, however you find your way to get to inspired mine just became jealousy. Um, and that in some ways, that's like, that may not, it may not be the most productive form. I, I mean, if, if you're a part therapist, you probably tell me that it isn't the most productive way to approach anything is through jealousy, but. For a big part of my career, jealousy is what drove me to kind of push harder. And you know, when I went off to Fallon, I was jealous of the incredible talent in the, in the work that was being done there. And I wanted so desperately to be somewhere on the same page with those guys. Um. And so like, you know, I think the key to any young person who's out there looking for a way to, to be inspired or to find that thing is just be honest with yourself. And it took me a long time to be honest. And the honest thing was I'm just a jealous person and that just drives me, you know, sad to say. Chris: No, I, I, I, I hear you. Because like, you see, you see something like, oh man, they made, they managed to do that. How did they manage to make that work? And like being able to pick that apart, figuring it out, and then figure out how to not just improve upon it, but do it in a way that's uniquely your own. I mean, that's its own genesis quo right there. Like it's. Figuring that out is amazing, but it's also, it's also a challenge. Um, and yeah, I, I hear what you're saying. 'cause Yeah, I think it, I think it goes a little deeper than jealousy, but I, I hear, I definitely hear what you're saying there. 'cause I, I get those same feelings when, as I build a business and stuff too, of like, oh yeah, well we need to do this. We need to get the best cameras, we need to get the best. Recording microphones, you know, the best content and everything. So yeah, it all, it all kind of bubbles to the surface as you, as you grow, so That's cool. So let's, let's talk a little bit, let's move a little bit into, um, talking about where you're at today. So you're with AR Arnold, correct? Yep. And, um, exactly what is your role at Arnold? James: So, I'm, uh, the executive creative director. Um, I sit just below Chief Creative Officer Sean McBride. I try to think that I'm his right hand man, although I don't know that he totally needs a right hand or a left hand. He is quite capable, but, um, wherever I can fit into make his life easier or make my clients' lives easier and. My, my creative's lives easier in many ways. That's what I am as, um, a facilitator at this point. It's the odd thing about this industry is like when you get good at something, then they make you manage people and you stop doing the thing, right? It's like, you're a good shortstop. I'm gonna take you off the field. Now you're gonna manage the team and you, so really what I have to do. Kind of find, find the beauty in the idea, find the beauty in the process, and then find ways to give them the space, the room to grow the idea, and then to succeed and sell the idea. So I really like to look at myself more as a facilitator than a creative director in some ways. Chris: Yeah. I mean, when you get to that point, you are, yeah. You are doing just that. You're managing people and that could be a challenge, I'm sure. Um, especially when you want to be, like you mentioned getting jealous, right? Like, do you ever find yourself maybe not getting jealous of your team, but being jealous of the fact that they get to be in the middle of it? James: Totally. I mean, I think when I look at talent, the idea that I have when I interview somebody is, is this person gonna take my job? If I don't fear for my job, then I probably shouldn't hire them. Right? So everybody that you bring on should be somebody that, um, brings something to the table that you wouldn't have thought of. If they bring things to the table that I would've thought of, then sure, I should still be in on the field playing. Um, but the goal is to have people that come in and, and blow you away and go, how the heck did you get there? Um, that's incredible. And that's where the jealousy comes in. It's like, wow, that's incredible. I'm so, I'm so like blown away with. The way you think. Now my job is to then go, okay, how do we steer this thing back towards, uh, what's relevant to the audience and, and what's relevant to the client, and how can we make this thing as bulletproof and viable as possible without. Um, destroying the idea in any way, shape or form Chris: definitely is a challenge. And I, I like, I like what you said about being, you know, worried about your own job. I mean, I was, I was thinking as you were saying that like, I don't have to worry too much. I own the business, but also could they run out and run another company outside of me, you know, um, are they gonna be so good that they just take all my business away from me? Like I, I kind of want those people, um, 'cause you know, they're talented. James: Yeah, that's exactly right. It makes it dangerous and like, you know, listen, I mean, you don't want to, you want to develop a, a healthy dose of fear, right? There's, I think there's competitive nature in every creative. Creative departments naturally are going to be competitive. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. But there's a, there's a healthy dose of that and you manage that as well. You don't breed a, an environment where everybody's after each other. You breed in an environment where everybody helps each other and they want that help because they trust in each other and they know that they have different points of view or different ways of coming at the problem. So, um, you know, ultimately the goal is to, um, build a team of people that, um, you can at some point. Believe that you can hand over the reins too, right? Otherwise, like you're being selfish. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe a little jealous at the same time. Um, but yeah. Um, so let's talk about that team. Exactly. So, so what exactly, like, where, where does Arnold specialize in the industry for those who don't know? James: I think, um, you know, Arnold has had an incredible name in the industry for quite a long time. Very respectable. They were a small shop that became very big and big on the heels of doing incredible work for brands like Volkswagen and Truth, that that energy and that heritage and that DNA is still there. Even though we've gone through many different iterations, what we have now is. Um, a leadership team of people that have been there for quite a long time that truly love the brand, have lived the brand and been there for, you know, Val is one of the leaders and Sean's one of the leaders and they've combined been there for somewhere around 35 years. So, you know, you have people that really, truly believe in the brand and I think. Where there are smaller shops where they're taking their names off the doors to consolidate and become part of a bigger holding company. We're doing the opposite. We're loud and proud about the name on our door. We're loud and proud about the fact that we have an independent spirit. We are part of Havas that gives us, um, the strength and reach that we need, but we are still fiercely independent in the way we think about things and the way we approach things. And I think like we. You know, we, we also pride ourselves on building an environment for our clients where they can feel safe to take big risks. You know, and that's, that's because we have an incredibly sound strategy department who can help, uh, clients feel like any risks that they're taking are very, very calculated. So I think like, you know, it is a, is it a place that, um, we also love. We love the fact that, um, we don't follow culture. We kind of like try to redirect it. If you look at a lot of the progressive work, you know, there's reasons why, you know, flow. There's reasons why. You know, Dr. Rick, those two characters did not just like come out of thin air because of something happened in society and it was a reaction to that there, a dedication to an idea and a commitment. To building those sub-brands over time and therefore become talked about in the spaces and places where we walk around, not just in ad industry. So we often joke about like, you know, our goal isn't always to win awards at the big award shows. It's what's more rewarding for us is if the Uber driver knows your campaign, you know, the things that are in pop culture, um, the things that are well known and seen and liked. That's really, really important to us. Chris: Yeah. And I mean, what you've done with, um, or I guess Arnold, I know you've been a part of it as well, but like with the Progressive campaign, you mentioned, um, very memorable content from that. Um, and it's interesting that you say like you're, you're leading culture as opposed to just listening the culture, I think. Um, tell me, tell me more about like, how is that done? Is that just a, an amalgamation of the team as a whole and their understanding, or is there some actual. Formula or, or magic to it? James: I wish there was a formula or magic to it. Um, I think each client is different. And how you approach it. You know, for example, we have PNC bank and the way we approached it was entirely different than the way Progressive approached it. That when we did listen a little bit to what was going on, both in their culture within the organization and outside of the culture or outside of the bank, and started to Wai, there's some themes here that make this topic or who they are incredibly relevant. For this moment in time, but it's not just a flash in the pan. It is built upon a platform that we then expect to go off and do bigger and better things. But it just is a different approach. I think in the case of, you know, say Dr. Rick, it is back to a, it's back to a truth or an insight, and the insight was so powerful and so resonant that you'd be foolish to walk away from it. So, you know, the fact that you become your parents when you own your first home is such a truth. It's like, of course, I, I totally wash the garbage cans. I don't not know why I power wash garbage can garbage cans, but I, there's like suddenly this weird sense of pride that comes with it. And what you realize is like it because it's so resonant that, um. There's so many more gags built into it that you can build equity in this character. And in some ways like that is a brand that's big enough to build multiple equities and multiple characters over time and still have it be resonant or it's like, um, it's still re be representative of. Of Progressive right? It, it has the same tone, it has the same feel to it. And even though Flo and Dr. Rick are different people, it feels like it comes from the similar place. Chris: Yeah, I mean you can see that I think, um, you know, just with like my visual eye, I think like the aesthetic that you've all put with Progressive as a whole feels like there's a consistent branding that goes beyond the color. It could be the grading of the film, it could be whatever you do. It just, I get what you're saying. Like, it, it kind of has the same vibe. It's the easiest way to describe it. I know there's more technical terms, but, um, you know, down to the, down to the grades and everything you all use, it just feels. Um, yeah, and Dr. Rick is really resident, um, as someone who's, you know, first time own owner and you know, a father of two young children, like becoming my parents is definitely something I'm very hypersensitive to right now. And. Guarantee. Like I am definitely getting there. I bought some shirts the other day and my wife just went, are you, are you turning? Are you, you really are turning 40, aren't you? James: I talk, I heard a comedian talking the other day about like, um, when he went and bought, uh, Costco pants and that, it was like the moment of like clarity because he no longer cared. Chris: Cos Costco's a good one. Um, mine wears some fly fishing, um, shirts that I, I like and she's like, you're buying fishing shirts that. No, I do fly fish, I actually do, but thankfully, thankfully there's some legitimacy to what I'm getting. But you know, they got the, the thing in the back, it looks like what everybody else wears, like Vince, and I'm like, but it, they're so cool. It's hot out here. It's the south. Come on. Anyways. But yeah, that's definitely, I feel like that's, that's in the vein of that. And I've cringed more and more at those in a good way of just like, oh, they just, they resonate. They have that hit of like, how Yeah, that I've, I've seen that. Yeah. That's me. Okay. I'm sorry. James: No, and then like in, in many ways, like, I don't mean to make this thing all about jealousy, but like when the people in your own building are doing that. It drives the rest of the creatives, it drives the rest of the strategists, the account people, everybody drives a little bit harder to find that next thing. And so like I oversee PNC Bank, which is a massive piece of business. Um, and we did a whole brand new overhaul of their brand. And a lot of it is because like. We didn't want Progressive to be the only one in the building that had some work that people were pointing to. We wanted to be known for other things out there, and we, we believe that even with something like a big, huge bank account, you think would be the thing that would destroy culture, and it's actually doing the opposite. We are, we have a brand, we have an insurance company that's doing incredible work, and now we have a bank that's doing incredible work. And what that says about, I think what it says about Arnold is our ability to find those little nuggets in spaces in places that people wouldn't normally think. Our fruitful and rich, for me, I've worked in, I've worked on three banks in my career. I love banking. Like hand it to me all day long. And the reason is because people like money is emotional. Like it is a big, rich, fertile place to play. So like I absolutely adore going into that space. Chris: Yeah. Yeah, banking. Um, I don't have a lot of experience with banking industry stuff, but, um, I, I, I was a, I was a financial advisor at Northwestern Mutual for a little while. Um, but that's, that's about as far as it goes for me. Um, but it's, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess, I guess it's kind of far, um, it's definitely more in the insurance realm. That's where I really am trying to get to. It's like I've had that experience. But yeah, I mean, banks are, you know. Yeah, they're, they're important. I mean, where would we be without our money being stored somewhere? So James: it's a very sensitive subject for people, right? It's like the number one reason why, um, divorce is happening. It's like, it is just somehow, it's always, it is just been taboo and it's just. Um, wrought with a lot of, with baggage that comes with it. And so, you know, to, to bring in a bank that has an empathy advantage that tries to understand people, um, better without just saying you're more than a number to do it in a really clever and interesting way was our goal. Chris: Well, tell me a little bit more. I noticed, um, you had done some stuff with Steve Stricker and, um, stuff before the, uh, the PNC championship. What was, what was kind of the purpose of showing his boring side? James: Well, um, I could probably take a little bit of a step back for those who don't really know the campaign really. Um, when PNC came to us, they were the sixth largest bank. Um, they were being outspent 10 to one. Um, and when we looked at the landscape, you're looking at it, uh, you're looking at Afin financial category where banks are failing, people are doing shady things with finances. Um, we, you know, TD Bank has a, has been. Fine for, uh, laundering money. So like financial institutions didn't have the most credibility, so we needed to come into us into that space and kind of reset that. It seemed to us that a lot of people were playing fast and loose with money and, and especially when you looked at like, um, there's a lot of financial advisors, so to speak on TikTok, that are giving you advice. Um, and I think a lot of people have financial fomo. They want to get rich quick. And so when we did a lot of stakeholders at p stakeholder interviews at PNC, we heard this word a lot. It was like, boring. We're boring. They were apologizing for being boring. They were like, well, you know, this company's kind of boring. Well, we would never do something like that 'cause we're a little boring. And I remember my ears, P per ping, perking up and saying, wait. Why are you guys apologizing for this? This is like your superpower in a day and age where everybody's taking risks with people's money. The reason why you've been here for 160 years is because you're boring you. That means you're doing things the right way. That means you're being like safe and steadfast and pragmatic. The things I want you to be with my money, like. I don't want anything else, like, you know what I mean? So the notion of being brilliantly boring since 1865 was born, it was just this notion of like, let's lean into our DNA, let's tell people why we exist, why we think our philosophy on finances is really, really important, especially in this day and age to help to help. Um. Define that. We went into the sponsorship place and it works really well in the sponsorship place because, um, when you look at like sports in general, it's celebrating the walk-off home runs. It's celebrating the poster rising dunk. It's, it's celebrating the, the incredible athletic feats. But no one celebrates the details, the minutia, the grind behind the closed doors that go into those incredible feats. So we created a, a Subseries, um, for our sports sponsorships. That is, um, the. The boring before the brilliance and it accentuates the hard work and the simplicity of that hard work, uh, the repetition of that hard work that, uh, these athletes go through. So Steve Stricker, part of the PGA Track championship was one of them. Um, we did Paul Skeens, who is arguably the best pitcher in Major League baseball. He is on the Pirates and we also did Scott Dixon, who is an indie car driver. And it works really, really well because. It's an easy get for consumers to go, oh, I get it. All of the stuff that like doing the medicine ball thing against the wall over and over and over and over. Is actually a great correlation to how PNC approaches your finances, paying attention to the hard work that no one thinks is sexy. We think that stuff's sexy so that you can then go do the brilliant thing. So you can hit the walk-off home run or the do the poster rising dunk. Chris: It totally makes sense. Um, and I mean, you know, when you, when you put it in those terms, I mean, it's very easy to think about how, at least for me, how um. You know how that would be of value, you know, to me thinking okay, you're doing the right stuff. 'cause what you're also communicating is we're doing all the stuff that you would expect of these top level athletes before you know, their moment of brilliance in IndyCar or, um, you know, the MLB or PGA tour and like. All those things have a lot of value in showing that as well. Um, and you're doing it in kind of a, I would say somewhat of a prestigious format too. I think I read that you all were doing this with like the folks from 30 for 30, is that right? James: Uh, one of the production companies that we are using DLP on does some of the 30 for 30 stuff as well. Yeah, they're fantastic. It's also, think about what that says to the employee. One of the hardest parts about launching this campaign was like, everybody stops and goes, hold on a second. Does this mean we have to tell the employees that they're boring? Like, does this mean they have to admit to it? And the thing is you, it's like a little bit of Yes you do. It's the same re like. Words have been adopted throughout the course of history, right? Like sick or bad, those things became really good. So it's not uncommon for people to twist a word and make it a superpower or, or mean something really positive. So once they kind of got that, it gave them the excuse to be themselves, but to see it as a superpower. And then when you attach an athlete who they look up to saying the same thing. Championing the same behaviors. It tells them that they're doing something right and gives them the kind of courage and spirit to say, yes, I am boring. And admitting that, um, and what that does provide for their customers is brilliant outcomes. Chris: And when you, and when you put it in that light, it sounds much more positive than just walking in and going, here's our new campaign. You're boring. James: Yeah. Yeah, it, well, it was, um, to be honest with you, the, I knew that this was gonna be a really, really hard sell. Um, you know, everybody perked up. It's one of those ideas that everyone kind of can't stop thinking about the next day. But I think the biggest worry is like, how do we then take this to an organization and tell them they're gonna be some admit to something that they, uh, thought was a bad thing. Um, so we wrote, uh, an internal. Brand book for the employees. It was the very first thing we did to prove that you could speak about this in really fun terms. Um, and make people feel like it's an aspirational thing to want to be or admit to be. Um, and that's why the tone of the campaign is still lighthearted. It's still a good energy to everything that we do. There's nothing that we purposely go out and be boring about unless we're gonna do it tongue and with our tongue firmly planted in our cheek. So it's like we don't get bogged down and let that word weigh us down. We actually elevate it. And help everybody else see what the possibilities are. Chris: Yeah, I think, I think if you're gonna go for such a, I'd say yeah, risky, kind of risky marketing strategy. You, you do have to be fully behind it and make sure that everybody else on the client side is fully behind it. 'cause gosh, I can't imagine going in and, um, half-assing that kind of a, an execution. James: That's right. I mean, I, I li listen, I give all the credit in the world to the CMO, Jim Garba, she. She knew right out of the gate that she needed to take the executive team along a journey. Um, and taking them on a, on that journey meant that it, that was not some crazy unveiling moment that they went, whoa. We had nothing to do with this. It was a, it was a, it was a, I wouldn't say a long process, but a very thought out, methodical process in which we brought them along so that it did not feel like it was a shock and all moment, um, un and instead it was a moment where they were like. That's us. And then of course we did the data behind it. You know, they're numbers people. So that stuff's pretty effective. And when we prove that it was more effective than some of the other work that we had entertained, then you know, it's easy. It was an easy decision because again, the world might think that's a clever ad campaign, and that's things we need to work on as we move forward, is proving that we have this boring philosophy in our products and our services, but. It felt good to us because it is in their DNA, it felt incredibly authentic to them. And that's why, you know, I don't, I don't typically like to do things that are just feel like they're clever ad campaigns. Um, they have to come from, we go back to that truth or that insight. Um, something that feels grounded in who they actually are and they can feel proud of. Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, I mean that's an interesting thing about working with big brands is you're not just affecting, you know, a business owner and their, you know, their small team. You're affecting, um, you know, lives of hundreds if not thousands of people and, you know, potentially with a negative campaign or with a flop. Like, you have all kinds of negative impacts with that. And the true is, you know, the same is true for the opposite as well. So I could definitely see that challenge. Yeah, when you, when you were talking about getting on board with things, I remember being at at and t years ago and in the internal campaign was, we can help with this. And the way that they rolled it out was by using the song, what Does The Fox say? And then using the words, we can help this over top of it. And I've never felt less bought into a company like. Like never felt less bought into something in my life. So props to you all for taking the time and effort to do it the right way and, and really get the team to buy in. James: Yeah. You try to, and now listen, we have a long way to go. It, it never ends. Um, you constantly hear where it's, where the idea isn't working and where it is and you know, you course correct and, um, make iterative changes so that people, um, do feel heard and bought in. But ultimately if, um. You know, it's a business that, it's a service business at the end of the day. And if the people who are conducting that service don't exude the, the virtues of the brand to the consumer, then we have a problem. And so we gotta get them on board. Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. And once you do, it's, the sky's the limit. James: Right? Exactly. Exactly. Well, it's amazing how many like this is, this is a PNC in general was not, um, not a company that. Built a brand prior to this that they had maybe not invested in marketing like they are investing now. And so it's really, really interesting to see now what they understand the power of Mark true, good brand marketing can do. And so there's a lot of hand raisers, there's a lot of people with ideas, a lot of people coming to the table saying, where's my version of this? And that's exactly what you want. And it happened really quickly, which is exciting. 'cause now as you said, the sky's the limit. Chris: Yeah. I mean, again, and another good point too, a lot of these older businesses that have been around since forever, like yeah, they're, they're known by name and that's what they operate off of. And they slap their name on sports sporting events and bus businesses and buildings and, you know, donations to things, but they never really have a voice or a messaging beyond that. So, yeah, that's, that's another interesting point of that. James: Well, they, they have no reason to disrupt. Right? They have the media dollars to, to just continue to, uh, wheat paste the world, whereas we don't. Right. And we're a challenger brand, and I love be, uh, any creative loves to be on working with a challenger brand because then you don't have the media dollars. You have to be scrap or you have to be smarter. You have to be more provocative. You have to, um, creativity is that. Is the, uh, is the ability for things that create these unfair advantages or, um, spread the word faster than even media dollars do. So I, I think they know that and they're bought in, which is exciting. Chris: Yeah, for sure. Definitely, definitely a, um, fascinating world to be in with the. More boring companies of the world, if I could say so. Yeah. That's cool. Um, so let's, let's talk, you mentioned earlier that Arnold is known by name, um, and obviously, I mean, it's got a reputation, but where, where did the name Arnold come from? Is that the founder? Is that who, how did that name come about? I guess I should say James: in an era when, um. You know, ad agencies were popping up all over the place with their last names on doors. He felt like that was a mistake, that he wanted to be on a first name basis relationship with his clients, um, and with his people. And so the last name was not something he wanted to do and wanted to stick with the, with the first name, which I think is like, just this really simple. That's the guy that you immediately know. Understands how to communicate with his audience, like right outta the gate, he's in the right industry. Chris: Yeah, absolutely. That's, that is a clever, I mean, very, very clever way to do it. And I You saying that me reminds me of a time when I was in college where a friend of mine and I were talking about art, art galleries and going to our art galleries. I said, we should just start an art gallery called Gallery Letters, followed by numbers. Yeah, because it's just, it's that same thing of like, everybody's doing the same thing, everybody's calling it the same thing, and, and you need to stand out. Um, so that, that makes a lot of sense. James: But it's also like, just like the philosophy alone is, is a good one, right? You have Doyle Dane, Burnbach, you have Burnett, you have grave. You know, all the Ogilvy, and then all of a sudden a guy comes in and you, we've seen that even Ogilvy eventually came out with David, but it was interesting that you have a guy who was like, I, I, I, I don't want to be on that. Level with people. I want to be on a first name basis with people that's, uh, build more personal relationships with our clients. Just makes sense. Chris: Yeah. And from a marketer's perspective, I mean, to me that's just a giant dog whistle that he understands positioning, and that's someone I wanna work with. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's great. Um, and, and it is really cool too 'cause I was expecting more of the answer of like, oh, Arnold is just it, it was the founder's last name and blah blah blah. But the fact that it's first name and he positioned it that way to me is like, that's brilliant. That's, especially in the day and age, he was probably coming up like that Makes a lot of sense. Um, and that's really cool. Okay. Well, great. Um, well we're getting towards the end of the conversation, always like to ask, you know, just what's top of mind for you right now as we look into the next year, maybe two years, um, in this industry. What kind of things are you looking at going, oh, this could be exciting, or, um, this might be a challenge just in the industry as a whole. James: I think we're probably, I don't know, maybe we're standing on a precipice of what. The power of creativity is, and whether or not it will withstand the influences of data, will it on, will it withstand the influences of ai? Um, will it continue to withstand fear? All of those things. Um, you know, ultimately at the end of the day. You know, the riskiest thing you can do is be ignorable. Um, so for me, I constantly, no matter what happens with the landscape, is to make sure that we're building an environment where our clients are feeling like they can take that risk. And if data. Backs that up, then I'm all for it if it gets in the way. And that becomes our priority because we're just excited that we can create 17 versions of a direct mailer in, in a blink of a second and hit 17 different people accurately. Um, if we get to that place where. We're kind of screwed and we've forgotten our way. So I, my hope is that, um, creativity is still going to be the ultimate, um, separator and differentiator and all of the other tools that we have are still just going to be there in support roles and versus taking the lead roles. Chris: Yeah. I, I hope you're, I hope you're correct and I, I really do think that, you know, I think we're gonna see a lot of the technology that we're talking about right now. And I know we're talking in vague terms, but AI and things like that, you know, um. It's hard not to talk about it right now, but I do think that like, it's almost like the way I view, it's almost like, you know how when early CGI came out and you would see things, you'd be like, oh, that's fake. Or you'd have, even to this day, like you can all almost always tell when something isn't right. If you look at a robot who's trying to impersonate a human. If you've seen some of those hyper-realistic models, they still look like a robot. There's still something not right about 'em, and we're still in that uncanny valley where most of what's happening and being creative right now, you can tell when it's not being produced or directed by a real person versus when someone actually puts the time and energy and effort into maybe using that tool in a way that could be beneficial. Um. You know, I think about some of the YouTube creators that actually create good content with some of those tools. But then the antithesis of that where you get the AI slot that comes out as well. So James: I think there's gonna be like, you know, there's a difference between building something at scale and then allowing. AI to help you with. That is one thing that's, we cannot stop that. We are not going to stop that. It's going to be an incredibly productive tool for all, for us all. It's the ai, how it infuses itself into production is the place that I'm going to be the most fascinated to see how, how it plays out. You know, for, for instance, like. I am, I might be one of these people that's on an island here, but I'm excited for it. I really am, because like as a creative person, it now gives me the excuse to do just about anything I want. You know, like if I want like a pirate porcupine with a peg leg to shoot quills at people. And every time those quills hit people, they go rg. I can do it. I like, I literally can do it. Like, whereas before the process of doing something like that would've taken months and months and months and hundreds of thousands of dollars. So like the, the tool now just opens up the possibilities of what we can do. Um, and yes, the tools haven't quite gotten to a place where they're perfect, but they're getting there really, really fast. Um, so I, for 1:00 AM. Thrilled to see what, um, what handcuffs are gonna be taken off, um, when the stigma is going to go away, about using it and when we are actually truly gonna be allowed to play and have fun with it. Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I, the stigma's an interesting part of it too. I'm, I'm very curious about because, um, yeah, there's definitely still, I mean, again, it's the uncanny valley. Like you can almost always tell when what was used there was ai, um, when you can't, it's kinda wild. But, um. But yeah, I think that there's, yeah, a lot of advantages at, at the very least, I'm just glad that I no longer have to draw stick figures for storyboards, because that's about what I've been doing in the past, especially internally. I'm like. James: It's not going to take the jobs of those that, uh, think creatively. I just don't think that's possible. Um, you tell, tell AI to sit down and write a Seinfeld episode, it's not going to be able to do it. It just isn't. So like it for those people that are worried about that part of it, I just, I just don't see a, a world in which that's going to happen anytime soon. Um, because it is, it takes a really unique. Mind to distill and find that little nugget that we were talking about before, that little truth, that little like thing that makes you laugh. Um, and I don't think it's capable of doing that yet, but it is capable of making explosions. You know, without actually exploding something right there, I can get helicopter shots without going up in a helicopter anymore. And so what I, when I was a young creative and I was told to budget, that's basically putting me into a constraint. Now, maybe I don't have those constraints and I'm, I'm fascinated by that. Chris: The lack of limits I think is really cool. And I've seen some fascinating stuff with AI that makes me go, I, I want to get, I'm a little jealous of that. I want to go do what that guy's doing, um, because it's really cool and you recognize it's one person and it's just like they might have spent a hundred dollars on software to do it, and they have a whole product. That's impressive. So I always love seeing that stuff. That's cool. That's really cool. Um, man. Well, James, thank you so much for, for being on today. Before we wrap up, I always like to end with a question. Um, what brand do you admire the most right now? Or maybe a better question for this conversation is what brand are you the most jealous of right now? James: Ooh, maybe Uber Eats. I think they're doing incredible work with the NFL. Um, liquid Death. I love just because they're brave and honest and consistent. Heinz ketchup, like going back to we're talking about insurance and. Banks, like nobody thought Heinz was an opportunity. It's just a condiment. Right? And I think it's a perfect example of don't underestimate your ability to do something truly breakthrough and, um, disruptive with something that's unexpected. And I think that's part of why they're so successful is that nobody, you can't see Heinz coming and nobody saw Heinz coming. You can see liquid death coming right. Um, but you can't see them coming. So, and I suppose. I think Nike starting to get their mojo back. I think they've done, they had a runner's campaign that was like, winning isn't comfortable. Then they had a female sports. It was, you can't win. So win, you know, starting to build these like really cool thought provoking platforms like. You know, I know that you've probably read enough about how they abandoned brand for a while, but I do think they're starting to get a little bit of that back. And for, for a creative, that was always the, like, that was Mountain Olympus. If you could go work at Widen on Nike, man, you were the, that was it. Like you might as well retire. That was the best job you could possibly get. So to see Nike like trip and fall and stumble, um, is not something that any of us. Look at, uh, fondly at like, we really, really want Nike to do well. They are still and should be our North Star. And so I'm really excited to see them returning back to form. So kudos to the team for, um, acknowledging that they've tripped and stumbled and now putting the throttle back down, which is great. Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I wondered where they had gone because it, it did seem like for a while they were just non-existent within like the, even you'd watch a sporting event and whatever you're watching, it seems like there's always something Nike on, and at least when I was growing up and then now it's like, oh yeah, you're right. They haven't been around that much, but that's making sense. So that's great to know. That's great to know. Um, well, awesome. James, thank you so much for your time today. I do appreciate it. Um, where can people connect with you? Where can they, um, get to know more about Arnold? James: Um, you can go to r.com, uh, for Arnold and you could probably, if you're really more interested in me or want to talk more or how to break into the industry or how to make good things out of boring stuff, um, you can hit me up on LinkedIn for sure. Chris: Excellent. Alrighty. Well James, thank you so much for coming on. James: Thanks Chris. I really appreciate you having me. It's been a joy. Chris: Yeah, it's been enjoyable for sure. Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand. Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice. You can also keep up with the podcast on we built this brand.com. If you like this episode, please give the podcast a five star review and make sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.