Latest / The Rave Social Podcast / 69 Building a Brand People Want To Come Back To with Rachel Leslie from Laer Studio

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69 Building a Brand People Want To Come Back To with Rachel Leslie from Laer Studio · The Rave Social Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's go time.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Rave Social podcast.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Jaden, and today we have a very special guest and friend of mine, Rachel.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Rachel is the founder and editor-in-chief of Layer Studio, a copywriting agency supporting today's leading CPG and purpose-driven brands like Away, Zola, Avocado, Goop Kitchen, and more.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: She's incredible.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: She has a journalism degree and over a decade of experience in marketing throughout her career.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Rachel has worked in the agency world and on the side as a digital copywriter at Nike.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's obsessed with the power of brand storytelling when it comes to today's top-of-mind brands.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: At Lair, she supports her team and clients as the editor-in-chief, leading creative strategies, and collaborating with marketing teams.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: She also supports small business owners and emerging copywriters with educational resources and DIY templates in the Lair shop, which is a lovely shop, by the way.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've been looking around in there.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: She has some great resources that we'll link for you guys.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: But welcome to the podcast, Rachel.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me, Jaden.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to be here.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're so excited to have you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you just have so much knowledge and you're so cool.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I cannot believe the brands.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can believe, but like you've just worked with some of the coolest and like biggest brands, and your track record is incredible.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So just think you're the coolest.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of the big brands that you've worked for was Nike.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious looking back, what are some of the experiences you've had that have shaped the way that you think about brand storytelling now?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, Nike kind of came about like uh mid-career.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think before that, I credit a lot of my approach to brand storytelling through studying journalism in college and getting just like constantly reminded of how important finding a story, no matter who we were interviewing or what we were writing about, um, kind of finding those breadcrumbs there.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that really helped for me to shape the foundation that I have today.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think also working at a PR agency on the opposite side of journalism and and trying to hook journalists to tell a story about a brand's product or an initiative that they were bringing to life has also helped just kind of position storytelling from a different perspective.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously, yeah, Nike, the storytelling behemoth that of a brand that it is.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I learned uh I kind of like brought all those pieces together of um, you know, being able to pull the the parts of a story out through the journalism techniques and understanding what makes a good story great from the agency days, and then also tying that with product and um athletes and sport storytelling moments as well, and kind of bringing that to life.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like working at Nike would be such a trip to because there are just like so many parts to the brand, like so many different product lines, like they're working with athletes, and then they also just like have their brand.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's crazy to think of like weaving all of that together to create a story and then making that be consistent, like time over time.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like that would be such a challenge, but obviously you're very good at it.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: It helps when they provide you with like brand guidelines or this is how we write in our voice.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is that is the key to like being so successful as a brand as Nike is today.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: They've been so consistent in everywhere that they show up, and everyone that they bring into bring onto their team is also kind of taught to uphold those those brand elements.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that really does help.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so interesting.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like you worked with Nike and then you went off, and now you have your own agency and you've worked with brands at all sorts of stages from small service providers to like obviously away, um, brands like Zola.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just I'm just curious.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what do the brands that have really strong stories have in common?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: What are they doing different?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's pretty obvious that they know who they are and what they stand for, whether it's like a small business owner with a strong um perspective or a large brand like a way that's you know upholding the the belief and power of travel into their products and and their communities that they create.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, having strong beliefs and like being able to stand firm in those, I think really helps to make the storytelling that much more authentic and almost easeful in a way, I would say.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like that has to kind of come from the CEO or founder?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or like what happens when brands get really big and maybe the story changes or it builds?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I mean, I think initially, like when away was starting, you know, they it was um, I think it was two co-founders at the time.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a like any business, it can start out as like a personal brand or personal project, and then at some point or another it can grow and maybe get further from the founder.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the ethos has always remained the same in terms of making travel more accessible, easier, you know, fun, um, and almost like really I'm trying to think of the right word, like romanticizing the idea of travel and the power that it can bring.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that that I think is where consistency from like the beginning of the brand to where it is today, like with any business, can really help to just ground that story and avoid dilution if it grows, if the brand grows bigger.
• 6:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which I feel like we you see that happen.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like you see brands grow too big and it does get diluted, but they're less, I feel like they're less easy to spot because they do kind of dissolve.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're not the brands in the spotlight, so they're harder to remember.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: But um that's interesting.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like it's a little bit of something that even like service providers kind of toy with or struggle with as they're like growing a brand, is it's like, okay, like I'm the face of the brand.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am, I am the story, right?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I started this because of for whatever reason, and that's the brand story up to this point.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then like, where does it go from here?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you seem like you know how to guide them right through that.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: My clients, but myself, I I struggle with that, with like being, you know, the founder, the face of the studio, and trying to determine how how much of me do I share, how much is too much, or do I really want to be the face, or can I kind of like merge into the background?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a constant struggle.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know as personal brands, we're all kind of or service providers, we're all kind of navigating that day to day.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think we all, like not all of us, but for the most part, like a lot of us business e businesses and and smaller agencies have started within like the last five to seven years.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like it's a newer thing to be navigating where before these just weren't really jobs.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's these just weren't really businesses.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like we created them, and then now we're like, hmm, am I gonna be the face of this forever?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I guess.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of makes me think of like if they didn't exist before, then there's no really no rules to say what you can and can't do, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's so true.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good reminder.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're all kind of making it up as we go.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, we are a hundred percent.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Every single person I talk to is like, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just doing it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, glad we're in the same boat.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm curious what your kind of definition and how what you think about brand storytelling in general.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think brand storytelling is kind of a buzzword to a degree.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and people might think different things about it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it a carousel post?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is it what's on my website?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what really is good brand storytelling?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think, like you said, it can get intermixed between like, am I telling a specific product story and that's this the brand's story?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or is the brand story like the brand as a whole, like its origin story and how it came to be and how it serves its customers today?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's like yes and I see I see like brand storytelling as almost like a medium for how we can communicate our products and services in a way that's compelling and engages the reader and ultimately creates enough inspiration for them to take action.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that that almost like brand storytelling as a verb can be applied to almost every part of your business.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're introducing yourself in a workshop or telling a story about how a new service or offering came to be, I think there's an opportunity to invite brand storytelling into everything because it makes it makes the mundane more interesting and makes you more memorable and more relatable.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of how I see it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it can get definitely get muddied.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I maybe for some people, this could just be a me thing, but like can sometimes get like confused about what part is this story?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is the story how I thought of this suitcase and then took it to this manufacturer, and then we we drew the designs and we created it and we got a sample.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that the story, or is the story like what happens when you when you own the product?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what what is your perspective on that?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're both the story.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think both they both can be the story, and they can be meeting the the customer or the you know the buyer at different points in the journey.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So like it kind of makes me think of like the marketing funnel, right?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like at the top of the funnel when you're just trying to build brand awareness, you're gonna be telling a different story than maybe someone who's more familiar with the brand and further down the funnel.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're not gonna need like the origin story or to get kind of inspired.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: They they just need like to know why they need the product and that they should buy it now, kind of thing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you feel like makes a story really memorable rather than just like jumbly words?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I mean if we're talking about service providers and personal brands, obviously like specific details can make them more memorable and relatable.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um Us as founders and business owners, we're all unique in our own way just by what we just by existing.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the more that we can bring ourselves into the story, I think can can make it more authentic and um help you stand out amongst your competitors.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think um also like an element of I I think like with any story, a hook can really help to draw a reader in no matter what kind of story you're telling.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you're nodding your head because you're all always saying hooks are important when it comes to social media.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're right.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm like, I think my brain like literally thinks in hooks.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: People are talking to me and I'm like, that's a hook.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a superpower, but not as much in the full storytelling.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually do feel like storytelling is not my strongest suit.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't always I can find common threads, you know, and like I can write a story.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I can write a beginning, middle, and end and things like that.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think really what you guys do is like such a skill of like finding the threads, making them make sense, and then like giving them the structure and the power to do what they're supposed to do, rather than just being like, like they need a little bit of like a formula, but not too much of a formula.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's what you do is like form all of that into something people like really connect with.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we try, but it's it doesn't become easier.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's constantly, you know, a skill that we're all trying to to master and and grow.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like finding that balance between merging all the things that the reader needs to know while still sounding authentic and like organic, you know, so they don't they don't see this as like you're just trying to sell them something.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's and it's not just like bulleted bullet point lists of like, yeah, that's so real.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's so challenging to me about copywriting and just like copy in general is that it's not math, which sounds like no duh.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: But like there isn't a formula, and like it can even be like that on social media, you know, it's like there's not a formula.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you A plus B is going to equal C.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't, that's not possible, but I think that's also like the fun part of it because you do get to play and like be creative.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And how can we tell this story in a new way?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's no like there's no formula to I mean there can be, it's still open to like, you know, insert pain point, and that could be anything, you know, it's not one specific pain point for one specific service, you know, all the time.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it does leave a lot of room to play and to be creative.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um what is a mistake you see businesses make when they're trying to tell their story?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are they what elements are they focusing on that they shouldn't be, or like where what in general is making it muddy and not work the way they want it to?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I see a lot of businesses struggle with wanting to tell their story.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, it is their story, but there's not a connection to the reader or the customer.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, like why should they care?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why should they read the story?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think is a an area that we all struggle with.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of taking ourselves out of the picture a little bit, and it's hard when you're so close to it, or it's a very personal story, but at the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves like why is someone gonna read this or care?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that that's that's a tough one.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think also getting too lost in the sauce of details, yes, I think they're important, but you know, overwriting can be a can be a challenge, you know, overwhelming the reader with almost too much information where they kind of lose their way in reading and don't know what to do next, and they're kind of just left with like, well, I guess I'm gonna leave.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's actually so crazy to think about and like hear you talk about how much goes into it because it is just like such a balance and a play of like how do we get all of the information across without being like without giving too much?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to create interest and desire and all these things at the same time.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just like it's not that easy.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know, I feel like that's my job.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot goes into a lot of rewriting, a lot of editing, a lot of questions.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Till you freaking nail it, yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, it is a lot.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm glad that writing Instagram captions and carousels don't have to be that perfect.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay if one element is missing, because I think I would go crazy, like really trying to get all of that in there, um, which is why you do what you do and I do what I do.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a good, that's a good point.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like it'll never be perfect, right?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like the story or the about page or whatever we're trying to communicate, and it can always change.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of taking that off of the taking that out of the equation, like that pressure, you know.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Cause messaging and like storytelling is so subjective, like what might appeal to one reader might not to the other.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's a good thing, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, because you don't want to be for everyone.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: You want to find your people and have them find you.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: When you have a new client sign with you guys, what is your creative process like?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you find inspiration?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you like to read?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: What are your what are your sources?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are my sources?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'll never tell.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, our process is very similar to that of like a brand and web designer with the beginning stages of a project where we have our clients fill out a questionnaire and provide us with all the the brain dump documents that they might have of their business.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then we kind of get into the research phase where we're looking at everything they've shared with us.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're also doing our own research, um, looking at competitors, trying to fill in the missing pieces of what trends are we seeing, where are their gaps?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think a lot of that along the way, we find inspiration of how this brand could be showing up, you know, and finding little words and phrases that spark kind of the creativity, and that's a good kind of bookmark for that we can turn back to for writing the actual deliverables.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, and after we do that initial research, we have a call with them where we kind of interview them and fill in any missing pieces.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: We find a lot of clients can write about, you know, what they do, and when it comes to talking about it, they might say something different.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also like the missing piece to, you know, maybe that's their story or their ethos.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to kind of have both mediums of of them to refer back to, and then that's where the writing begins after that.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it sometimes it comes easy, sometimes it doesn't.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I I like looking at brands outside of their industry to get inspired.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that can help to to lead lead us where we want to go.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so real.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's funny, I feel like it depends on the day for me, but like sometimes I feel like I can't write about what I'm trying to say, and I need to like I'll do like voice note and put it in my notes app.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And other times I feel like it's the opposite, where like I can I'm typing it, but like I can't explain what I'm trying to say.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, words are just so funny, they're honestly like you know people say like a picture's worth a thousand words.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I believe that to a degree because sometimes words feel limiting a little bit, where you're like, how do I say this thing that I'm trying to say?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can I just show you?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's so true.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that means like I definitely experience that in the writing process where I go to sit down with the intention of writing a whole first draft of something, and the words just aren't wording, and I need to like come back to it another day, or I need to like clean my office or eat a meal or go on a walk, and then somehow that unlocks something.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I find through, yeah, when I'm forcing it, it's the worst.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I just do not think you can force writing at all.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can fake a picture or a video or something, but like when it comes to writing, like what do you if they're not there, they're not there, like you can't get them.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: That happens to me with client content too.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll I'll get like half a Caption written, and then I'm like, it's gonna be tomorrow thing, huh?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just can't.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's no, I can't do it anymore.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I hit a wall, so relatable.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm curious.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're a big traveler.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: We were just talking about this before we went live, but I swear every weekend she's somewhere, and I'm just curious how that has impacted like your creativity and even like the words that you use.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I I like to say I credit travel for why I started my business.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, before I was working in the agency world and at Nike, I had moved to Vietnam to teach English and traveled around all around Asia, and that was a very formative chapter for me and of self-discovery and curiosity and confidence um and finding my way to writing.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I returned to the the art of or the activity of traveling because it kind of ignites that feeling for me time and time again when I go to you know different places.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I it just brings brings more inspiration, whether it's learning about a new culture or meeting people or um you know trying the food.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: It just uh ignites something for me.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: It made me so curious if you are a natural journaler.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, also, you guys, we're gonna link Rachel's um Instagram and everything, but she's obviously a great writer, but she's also a great writer on like a personal level.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: She writes about her life in the most beautiful ways.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious if you've been like a natural journal writer your whole life, or if that's still maybe something that doesn't always come naturally.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I've been writing in some way or another most of my life.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, journaling has been more prominent in the past few years, just in like, you know, the journey of healing and self-discovery in your mid-30s.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of invited more of that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it so harsh and aggressive?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's a a nice, I mean, there's also something about like putting pen to paper versus typing, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's more analog, it feels more raw, and you can't really delete.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's scary.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, scary.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's interesting.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Side that was just a side note.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I some other things about Rachel.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: You've obviously gone from like you were solo in your business, and then now you kind of have a team of writers.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious, this is not really about copywriting or anything like that, but like, how has your perspective on leadership changed and how have you shifted your role since becoming more of an agency style?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, reflecting on the past few years of making that transition from me to a team has definitely had its challenges and also, you know, a lot of beautiful opportunities for growth, whether that's training writers on our process and how we navigate writing to a brief or revisions or you know, the research phase.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's almost been like bottling everything that's been in my head into an SOP or something, and and you know, dispelling that to our writers.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as easy as that might sound, there's still so many moments today where I'm like, oh yeah, I've it's still in my head.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've never documented that anywhere or you know, told anyone about this.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been a big um just journey in that sense.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And also, you know, knowing when to lean in to support our writers and when to step out and let them kind of learn from feedback and from the client has also been just um part of the process.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me think back to when I was, you know, learning how to write and having mentors and more senior people supporting me along the way, you know.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when it's giving feedback, it's less of rewriting and more of like asking questions and kind of letting them find their way to it than me just giving them the answer.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I really can relate to that.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the journey of leadership is such a crazy journey.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I same as you, like I remember being like in my first marketing position and like learning, and you know, you might have an unhappy client or you do something wrong or whatever, and like you're just navigating it from what you know at that point, but it also gives me so much honestly compassion for the managers or owners of businesses that I worked for, and how they had to just trust someone with the skill that they had and and trust them to do it and trust them to learn.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't, I feel like that's kind of a lost thing.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we don't the generations now don't think about that kind of a thing where they're like, I'm learning right now.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and learning to wear so many different, so many different hats too.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being so stressed, just probably because of my personality, of not making a mistake, and how now I see like the girls on my team, and I'm like literally not concerned if they make a mistake.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's okay, it's not a big deal, and it's just so crazy the perspective that you get when you step into more of like a leadership position.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy, totally, totally, yeah.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like such a huge personal development project.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really is.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: You guys also have a really strong client experience, and these are also some of the tools that you have in your shop, like onboarding, you have some client experience things, testimonial things um in your shop.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyone who's listening, if you want those, go get them.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: But your client experience is lovely, your clients love working with you, and I'm just curious what you've done to refine that process over the past few years to get it to a point that you feel really good about.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I we definitely are proud of our experience.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that we've constantly been iterating, you know, with each client, just observing like what worked, what didn't, um, and kind of tweaking as we go and continuing to evolve it, knowing that it can continue to evolve.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, you know, it's kind of ever changing.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think we've really just as creatives, it's easy to get lost in the work and kind of lose sight of time timelines or due dates or following up with clients about feedback.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've been in those positions where I've done that and I've, you know, the project has fallen off the timeline, and you know, now I'm experiencing like a a project that should have been wrapped up a month ago, you know.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: So all those learnings I've taken into account and have implemented them in Lair.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we found a really good balance for the creativity to flow and also for things to stay on track.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um that is has been like the key, I think, to what makes the project successful.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Giving ourselves enough time to write and to find our way to the work, and then our clients enough time to review and to sit with the deliverable before we connect on a call.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just things like that that are really intentional, that may not be explicitly called out, but we've like had a lot of thought around the process and the timing there.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Again, with just the refinement, it's just like a never-ending like how do we get better?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make these shifts?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: It can be exhausting at times, but yeah, uh, I think it's just part of the job, honestly.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm curious for any like smaller business owners that might be listening to this, who maybe they wrote their own website or maybe they used AI to write their website, and they're really trying to do all of this copy on their own.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: What would you tell them is the easiest way to make it better?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: What should they be thinking about?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think going back to what we were saying earlier, um, about when you're writing, making sure it's not about you and it's still really about the customer, I think at the end of the day.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then also one little trick that I still find so helpful today is reading the copy out loud.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that can really help to pinpoint where things don't make sense, or if you have a run-on sentence or you've already you've like lost yourself in what you're reading can really help to determine like how someone else will be reading it and what they might hear.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a small thing, but like so major.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like reading it out loud really does make such a difference.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: I never do that and I need to do that.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do it?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just realized I'm like a game changer.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a really good one.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm oh this I love this question actually.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: What is one thing about great writing that can't really be taught or followed in a template?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of what we were saying earlier about formulas.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they don't really apply to copy, but you can use a template to at least get you there.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: But honestly, I think great writing has feeling and emotion and um detail, you know, that's specific to us, and that's something that no template could ever provide for you.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to be willing to kind of give a part of yourself up to the writing too that can make it really original and authentic.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like it's kind of like what you were saying about like you could say, okay, you need to like fill in a pain point here, but like it's how you say and describe the pain point, not necessarily just like what it is that makes the writing good.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And even like the way that you describe it versus how I describe it, they're gonna be two different ways and probably just as interesting because they're unique, right?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're words that you use and words that I use.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in in like the age of AI when it's easy to default to something being written for us super quickly, that's where we can lose like the feeling and emotion and the specificity.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the more that we can bring ourselves back into it, I think the stronger the writing will actually be.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: I agree, and it's just funny.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, obviously, we use AI in our in our business, but it's funny like how quickly you can see these patterns of like the non-specificity, like always saying like suddenly, quietly, like just these words that come, they start to like bubble up in AI, and you're just like, come on, could we be a little more descriptive?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Which is absolutely on on the operator, not on, I mean, not it's not on the AI's the AI's job.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're just asking it to do something.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um true.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think I actually do feel like AI has made me more descriptive because I don't ever want to sound like everyone else, you know?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: I have some rapid fire questions.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think about those?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm ready.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, name a brand whose storytelling you admire right now.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're called Fern.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like F-F E R N.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: I keep getting fed their ads on social media, and they're not using a lot of words in their ads, but the way that they're storytelling visually has been so compelling.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a perfume company and they kind of infuse like a setting and a place in their in their sense, and that's just a really beautiful way of how they kind of bring that into what what the product is that they're selling.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like words and pictures together.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, duh.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like how our entire life is, but like words and pictures together, so strong.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, if they're misaligned, it'll mess it up.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you won't get the vision, you won't get the vision.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a good one.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, what's one word every brand overuses?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think in the service provider space, it's elevated.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I see that a lot.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're all guilty of it.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's such a great word to describe, you know, something that's beautiful and like luxurious, but not saying luxurious.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's one that I kind of I try to avoid that I see a lot.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's tragic too, because sometimes like words spike like luxury or elevated, you know, and it's like, oh my god, like at one point that was genius, and now we're here, like back to the drawing board.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: How do we describe this thing that we like want to call luxury?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but that's a good one.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like elevated is definitely used a lot.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, number three, coffee shop or airplane.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Where do your best ideas happen?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's coffee shop or I'm inserting a third.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: My office, honestly.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know wow.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Your office must be very inspiring and have very good vibes.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely got good natural light, which I think helps.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I am not one of those like airplane people.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know how some people are like, I get on the airplane and I can get like a ton of work done.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know my brain goes flat.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I go into like off mode.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work for me.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, number four, do your best ideas come while writing or when you're near your computer, or none of the above?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: None of the above.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, they come when I'm not writing and I'm not on my computer.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just am, it's almost like when I've forgotten that I need to be working on something, and and then the idea comes.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So relatable, so relatable.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: You'll I'll just be like sitting in front of my laptop, like, could it airdrop to me or like what's happening?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the second you like walk outside, you're like, oh, that's the answer.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really funny.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, what is one?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is my last question.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is one piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is a piece of advice I still give to myself, and I think it's easy in the entrepreneur space to feel like we're behind, or even as we're finding our way in our careers.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so my piece of advice would be you're right where you're supposed to be.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's so that's so true.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Just gonna always feel like you could do more, like should be farther ahead, or whatever.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I really feel like things just happen on the timeline that they're supposed to.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know that sounds woo and crazy, but like it's just true, you know, things just happen how they're supposed to.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you don't really like it, which I feel like that happens to me.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you have been lovely to have on the podcast.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else you want anyone to know about you?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think we covered it.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of good stuff.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So much good stuff.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I mentioned, we're gonna link all of Rachel's socials, all her things, and her website and her resources.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want support, you know where to get them.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks for being here.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jaden.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.