Latest / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast Season 7, Ep. 8 - Stanford Head Coach Danielle Spencer

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JM3 Lacrosse Podcast Season 7, Ep. 8 - Stanford Head Coach Danielle Spencer · JM3 Lacrosse Podcast

• Sara Munro: This is the JM three Lacrosse Podcast conversations about playing, coaching, and learning the game differently. From player development and skill acquisition to the ideas shaping the future of lacrosse. This is JM three. Jamie Munro: How's it going, everybody? Welcome back to the JM3 Lacrosse podcast. Very excited to have Danielle Spencer on the podcast. Danielle is the head coach of Stanford Women's Lacrosse. Danielle, very fired up to have you on the show. Danielle: Thanks, Jamie. Me as well. I'm excited to have a great conversation about lacrosse. Thanks for having me. Jamie Munro: I love it. how's fallball going? Danielle: It's great. Stanford starts academically later. So we're actually in week five of the fall quarter academically, but we're probably about seven weeks in to lacrosse and we're nearing the end of fallball. We've got one more scrimmage this upcoming week against an opponent, but then we'll continue to, you know, do inner squad stuff. And it's been great. we've got a new team. taking shape, some returning faces and some new personalities and players and it's been really fun. Jamie Munro: Awesome. On that note, let's just Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: let's just rewind and just talk a little bit about last season. You guys had a great year, very exciting. I'm sure you want to build on it. Can you just touch on what it meant to you to push Stanford whims across ahead as you did last year and and really competing at the highest level? Danielle: Yeah, thanks. It it was great. And you know, you never really know going into any season what you're gonna get out of it. You might have, you know, an idea of what you hope to accomplish and some goals that you think are either attainable or some, you know, really challenging goals that you wanna target. But I think for us, yeah, I'm really proud of the season we had and it what was really cool was Just to see how much confidence that's given the team and the way our alumni have kind of grown even more in their engagement and our parent community and the the Stanford community. It's just been you know, slow. I'm in year seven now. So kind of year to year, try to grow the program, experiencing all the growing pains that come with that, but being able to see growth and you know, reap the benefits of our labor as coaches and as players has just been really rewarding. But I'd say most specifically seeing the confidence grow in our players as something that I've been really excited about. Jamie Munro: Yeah, and just being able to be in the mix to compete for a national championship, which is what you've always wanted. But it's just like it Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: takes time. It's always easy to kind of talk about it, but then you gotta go out and win big games. and it was Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: really exciting to watch you guys last year. And you graduated how many key starters from last year? Danielle: a good amount. I don't I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but hard to replace players like, you know, Annabelle Frist and Kate Bellissimo and Lucy Pearson and Riley Bouvier and Mallory Hasselbeck. I we had we graduated a lot of great players, but we return a bunch of great players as well. we're younger in some ways this season and also even more veteran. in other ways. Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Danielle: you know, that's the fun part of college across. Like every year is going to be different in some way and you've got different Jamie Munro: It's true. Danielle: strengths, different challenges. And I really like that part of it. I I'm a pretty analytical person, so I kind of like the, thinking that comes with, you know, an a new team each year. Jamie Munro: Totally. And you never know, like you said, I remember at Denver two thousand five was supposed to be this great year for us. And it was. It was probably our best year to date it. It was our best senior class. And it was really the the first class where we had recruited really the kids that we wanted and we came up short by a goal to make the NCAA tournament that year. And next the next year was supposed to be a rebuild, but it was ended up being our best year. And so you really never know. You Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: never know what the competition's gonna be like. You never know what the leadership's gonna be Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: like. your culture kinda changes every single year and that's what makes it so fun. Danielle: Yeah, I agree. Jamie Munro: One really exciting note is your new offensive coordinator and Colin Doyle, Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: one of the all time great box lacrosse players in the history of the game. who I've met a few times and is just a great guy. and actually, my son, Colin Monroe, met Colin Doyle long before I did because Colin, my son, was really good friends with Colin Doyle's best friend's son. Dylan Watson and they met down at Georgetown and you know, my son and played a lot of box across as well, and they actually got the same name, which is kind of funny. But it's very exciting to have a guy like Colin who's just got a great way about him and was obviously a great player. And you guys have wanted to play kind of a box across style, and now you've got, you know, somebody that really knows it. How's that going? Danielle: Great. He's doing a great job. And I like to think outside the box in ways. I I think I learned some of that from Kelly, to be honest. And so just going about the hiring process this summer, I just really wanted to be open minded. I did not want to rush into anything, you know. every year older I am as a coach, I feel like I grow wiser in different ways and so when we connected, I was like, Wow, this could be awesome, you know. he's had so much coaching experience and playing experience already. So, you know, you don't have to have had, you know, tons of years of college coaching experience in order to be a great coach. Like great coaching is teaching. and educating and so I think he's got the combination of the street cred for our players, to buy in. But then also he just he knows the game and he knows how to coach and he he's a great teacher. And everything else that comes with the college game you can kinda learn. but there's some like innate qualities that you you gotta find the right person for. So I think think I made a great hire. He's doing a great job that and we're playing some great lacrosse. I'm loving Jamie Munro: yeah? I love it. Danielle: yeah, it's fun. and you can't identify it as one thing. Like it there's obviously box across elements, but there's field lacrosse elements too and there's elements that'll are continuing to take shape with the strengths of our players this year. But we're having fun. Jamie Munro: that's awesome. Well give me some give me some details. What are you guys doing offensively that you're excited about? Danielle: I think that I just I'm generally pretty open minded. I just think there's a lot of ways to play the game. I think there's a lot of ways to coach the game. we have not played the same style every year. I trying new things, I like exploring new things. Like I'm just always trying to help have us be better and, you know, win more and And so I think where Colin and I have really meshed is he also is really open minded. obviously there's elements of, two man game and three man game, but we're still kind of exploring like what are the ways that this style will become uniquely ours, you know, and what are we Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Danielle: gonna do different that nobody else is doing, you know, and that's not necessarily the intent. But it would be pretty great if we could have some things that are unique to us, I think that's one of the things that I've learned the most, I'd say, especially being in ACC, just the level of coaching is so good. And I mean, every team is so good, and we're gonna get challenged every game. So, you know, you can you can focus a lot on the opponent. But sometimes that could be a trap and you don't actually have that much time to prepare for each team. So, you know, I'd find an identity for your own program and kind of challenge your team in ways that you think they're gonna see throughout the season, but really focus on like your identity and your style of play and then have a lot of belief and trust that hey, we're gonna keep you like Yes, we're gonna get focused on our opponents, but not to a level that takes us away from ourselves and our own identity. And so I think that has been a really enjoyable process for me working alongside Colin. It's you know, creating our identity for this team this year. And so yeah, like I said, it's got you know, elements of things you would expect, two man and three man game, but also things that we're kind of tinkering with. each day and figuring out what are some things that we're just gonna do. Like it doesn't matter if it's a man or a zone or who we're playing, like this is just gonna be part of what we do, you know? Jamie Munro: how would you describe your identity as of now? Danielle: you know, I think generally we wanna have really high IQ players that learn how to read defenses and make decisions on the field and be adaptable players. And so we've been, you know, making that a priority and we want to swing the ball a lot, high and low. It's great time to be a lefty right now on our team because they're, getting super engaged in the process and part of our style of play. And we want to be the most unselfish team in the country, just with our play. You know, not aggressive, but just like really unselfish style of play, a lot of ball movement, a lot of feet movement. and high IQ players. So nothing revolutionary I would say Jamie Munro: Right. Yeah. Danielle: tactically, but say that's the identity that is taking shape for us. Jamie Munro: Yeah, I love it. Well, you mentioned a lot of words in there that would be a pretty good segue into part of what I wanted to chat with you about, which is the book Transforming Basketball, which I bring up on this podcast with a lot of people. And we had chatted there it is. I've got my copy next to me too. Danielle: Got it right here. Jamie Munro: and this Ecological dynamics and constraints led approach. and the journey that goes along with it. And and we were sort of chatting a couple minutes before we pressed record on this podcast, just about, you know, every coach has their own experiential knowledge. You do, I do, Colin does. and this approach doesn't change that. All it really would do is enhance it. To allow you to look through a lens of the research and evidence based theory of human movement. And I'm just really excited to hear your opinion on some of the things that, you know, along the way, both neither of us have a PhD in ecological dynamics, but you know, being a practitioner is just part of the learning. And I know you're you've just, you know. You've been an outside of the box thinker, but you're also a person who always wants to learn, as I am. And so maybe you could share 50,000 feet what this has meant, and then maybe we can dig into some of the some details of the challenges and the exciting parts of it. Danielle: Yeah, I would love to talk about it. I'm become pretty obsessed. I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I think I got into this really from you know, I've known you over the years and it's been on my radar and like in the periphery of what we're doing as a program, but I'd say in the last couple of months we like really Just dove in and I think what's been eye-opening for me is I don't think it's a style of play. It's just a style of coaching. It's just a style Jamie Munro: Yes. Danielle: of learning. And I think that's, you know, maybe a misconception out there. It's not a know, everyone can find their own style of play, but I just think our practices are better. I just think our players are learning more. It's fun for me. I've always practice planning is my favorite part of the day. I'm a nerd in that way. And I've always felt that way, but even more now, it's just been really cool. Like when we're thinking about what we need to do, I'm not thinking about a drill. Like I'm not kind of flipping through a drill book. I'm just thinking about what do we need to get better at? Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Danielle: And what are the constraints or scoring systems or ways that we can challenge our team to really get better at that thing today. And then the you the drill kind of takes shape from there. So it's fun. It's really works for me and I'm being challenged in a way that I'm really enjoying. in terms of like just thinking about how we're gonna approach each each day's practice and how we're gonna get better and not thinking about it relative to just drills per se, but really thinking Jamie Munro: Right. Danielle: about it relative to the constraints model. And I think it's working is the is the next Jamie Munro: Okay. I bet. Danielle: important piece. It's fun Jamie Munro: And it Danielle: for me. our players are getting into it. It's taking some time for them to adjust pretty much everything we do. There's there's a score and there's a winner and a loser and, different obviously constraints, but also points and, rewards and consequences for things. And I think our players now they're getting really on board. And it's fun for them. And each practice is kind of new and different from the from the last, which is nice. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Danielle: So Jamie Munro: So give me an example of, if you would, so people can relate to just an example of something that you felt like you needed to get better at rather than just a pure drill. And then maybe how you dreamed up a new way of of accomplishing that. So creating, the behaviors you're looking for and and hopefully getting the players to be more attuned to what it is you need them to see. Danielle: Let's see. I think I found myself more and more comfortable with just if my if I find my mind going to an on air drill that we used to do right in terms of passing in the clear or something you know let's say we need to get better at clearing the ball right like I think in the past it was like well the problem with clearing and riding is it's not really high rep, you know if you're doing full field clearing and riding, there's great parts about it, but there's sometimes people aren't even touching the ball, and so so then maybe you revert to, all right, well, we'll just do an on air drill where people are gonna get a lot of passes. And I think that what I found now is more of the in between. I think it's challenged me to think, well, there are ways we can get better than just, working on long passes on the run. Like that just is it's just like yes, it's high rep, but it's not realistic. There are just things that happen in a every team rides differently. Like you just can't draw it up perfectly. And so for us it's Obviously we're doing stuff with settled offense and settled defense, but I've really been thinking a lot about the clear and the ride and draw controls, and so for example, we'll confine the space, think about numbers that make sense that are gonna be appropriately challenging for that space. Obviously we're working on clearing and riding. We don't want it to be too small, but full field isn't gonna be en enough reps, it's not gonna be challenging enough. So we've And tinkering with the space and tinkering with different constraints. you gotta get the ball from this end of the field to that end of the field in X amount of time, there's a shot clock. And then there's gonna be some type of, rules for that day. whoever is the riding team, they must double. Wherever the ball goes, they must double. Or clearing team yesterday it was that you could you could only hold on to the ball for three seconds, tops. And I just think it's It just helped me broaden my mind of thinking beyond just drills that I'm comfortable with and thinking how can we get better at something in a way that's gonna be more game like but also pretty high rep. And so that is just one example of something that has been kind of new for us this fall, whereas in the past we would probably be doing a lot of passing drills to to get better at our clear. Jamie Munro: Yeah, just your stuff up. Danielle: Right. Right. And we don't do that much in many other kind of contexts, but that's one example where we've clearly evolved with how I approach getting better at clearing the ball. Jamie Munro: I love it. Can you give me an example on let's just use two main game as an example? Can you give an example? Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: 'Cause that's something that a lot of people want to be able to run, and they try and then it just doesn't seem to work very well. And then they kind of abandon it because it's Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: there's ways that it can work really well and there's ways where it can be really ugly. Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: can you think of an example of something that was holding you guys back? as Alex would say, a rate limiter in your team man game because you weren't creating advantages in some some way that you attacked it with constraints. Danielle: Mm. Well, I think just generally as someone who's kind of navigated that same internal conversation about like two man game and is that gonna be part of what we do and to what extent. I think, you know, even bringing Colin on board was kinda helpful because he has this tremendous box across background. But it doesn't mean we're bringing a pick to the ball every time. You know, I just think I think that is helpful for people to maybe build more comfortability with the idea of adding two man game to part of the offensive process. I do think when it gets good, it's harder to defend. I really do. And I've just seen that firsthand. And it's one of those things that maybe it gets a little bit like messier before it gets better. And you just got to stick with the process. But even I don't know, a couple of years ago I remember speaking with you about this topic and the the light bulb went off of like, well, if you're bringing a pick to the ball and your teammate has a step on her defender, don't bring a pick to the ball anymore. You know, like she already has an advantage. Jamie Munro: Right. Danielle: Just something simple like that, I think there's nuances to it that if you learn some of those things, like if you already have an advantage, take take that advantage. But if you don't, here's a way that's gonna help you create advantages and it's gonna actually be harder to slide to. It's it's Jamie Munro: That's pretty much it. Danielle: and so I think that is just an example of just kind of having two-man game be a part of our process, but not have it not having it be so strict where our players can't kind of read instinctually. what's going on, Jamie Munro: That's such a good point. Danielle: and yeah, I guess with constraints with it. I mean, there's obvious I think easy ones are just, you know, having you can have the defense give certain looks and, you know, kind of have that challenge your attackers to kind of figure out like what's the defense doing? How do we read that? How do we attack it? You can constrain the space, how how they start with the ball. yesterday Jamie Munro: Yeah. Danielle: we were doing stuff where they had to start with the ball and the defender was right on them. Sometimes we do the ball where, the ball's gonna get swung into the two man from a certain location. Sometimes we've done it where the they gotta get open first. maybe that's a heavy, adjacent denial so I don't know if that's helpful, but th yeah. Jamie Munro: No, that's great. It's super Because I think what you're talking about is, back to the whole idea of you're not picking for the ball every time, even if you're playing two main game. Like you said, if you're picking for your best dodger that has a great matchup, you're gonna slip it. And the advantage of a slip rather than a mirror or a clear through is it it makes them make a later decision on their help and it leaves you more open than if you just clear through, which generally means you're clearing into the coverage of the help and they're going to slide off that clear through. Now all of a sudden they're making a last second decision of do I stay with this slip, giving the dodger space to attack, or do I help where the slip ends up being wide open? on the flip side. even the best dodgers sometimes need a pick because now it it it gives them a little assist, they the defender has to navigate it, especially if they're going over it. and so I think that was really perfectly stated. what are some of the biggest challenges do you you see in trying to have successful creative? creating advantages more regularly in two minute games. Danielle: I think it's just As a coach, Just not giving up on something when it's not successful right away, I think we talked about this over the summer. I can think back to practices in the past where I felt it was a good practice because our offense played great. And then Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Danielle: you get into the environments that we were in late last season and I wished I had challenged them more. that's great that we can just score in a 3v2. because we're really familiar with the drill, because it's the same drill we run every week. so I think that just having that open-mindedness to it's gotta be within reason, but we don't want the offense or the defense either to be like super successful in practice, that's probably a sign that we're not doing something the right way. Cause that's not what it like at some point in a game, they're going to be challenged and they're gonna have to figure it out and they're gonna have to be comfortable with the adversity. And so I think from a coaches, I've had to shift my mindset a little bit as well. Think like it's it's okay if we're not scoring right away. in a drill, or the D's not making stops right away. We gotta figure out kind of the right balance, you know, 'cause Jamie Munro: Totally. Danielle: we don't want things to be completely defeating. But I think with something like a two-man game that could be newer for folks, you gotta kinda just push through that phase of things being unfamiliar to you as a coach or things being messy at first because most of the time in practice don't need it to be great right then you need it to be great in a tie game in the fourth quarter and Jamie Munro: Right. Danielle: like the only way you're gonna get to that is by kind of having the like uncomfortable situations in practice where you're either challenged as a coach or the players are challenged because they're not getting the result that they want every time. And so I think I've just really opened up my mind to that philosophy of we actually don't want our players to be extremely successful in practice. Jamie Munro: Right. Yeah. And dial being able to have control over the dial of Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: of how challenging or how easy and and being able to tweak it, right in the middle of it, realize this is way too hard for Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: one side of the ball or the other, or this is way too easy, and then figure out how to Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: tweak those constraints. And that is really one that's where the the art of coaching meets the science of it. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: what are what are some constraints you've you you've used to develop your two man game? Whether that be scoring systems, you mentioned space constraint, but maybe a little more specific to coverages. Danielle: I think it again it's like yeah, you've got space constraints, you've got the location of where the ball starts or where it's coming in from, or giving the defense certain kind of constraints or things where you're really rewarding the defense if they, get a specific result. So you're you're encouraging them to double off the pick or something through through the reward system. where outside of the two band game, you know where I've actually had a lot of fun with the constraints is the draw. Jamie Munro: Let's hear it. Danielle: And so I've been giving constraints either to the circle or to our draw takers. so when we, do draws a lot in practice I'm coaching the draw and so I've been thinking a lot about what are the challenges that they're gonna face in a game. And you know, everyone we go against is so good now at the draw in their circle. And so I've been giving them challenges of like you can only you can only draw the ball here. Or this is where like you have to try to draw the ball here. every single time, and then have some type of competing challenge for the circle, this player on the circle, Jamie Munro: That's awesome. Danielle: she has to start she has to start behind you on every draw and just you can weave things in that you know your team is gonna see in the spring. Like I just know that there's gonna become a point where we just can't we're just not having success with that. And so we have to do this. And so I'm gonna force my player to only draw it that way today because that's the thing that's actually the most outside of her comfort zone. And naturally, in competitive environments without some of those constraints, like players are gonna do what they're best at, what they're most comfortable with. So I think finding ways to push people outside of their comfort zones through the the constraints, the rules of the drill. So I would say I've been tinkering a lot with that. I don't know if we're doing anything revolutionary with two man. It's just that, Jamie Munro: With too many game questions. Danielle: it's just not the same thing every time. There's just something that's gonna be different, And I think right Jamie Munro: So true. Danielle: now, being pretty new in this process myself, I think right now that's good for me like each time there's something that's gonna be a different challenge. and then from there I guess as I work through those I'm gonna have to become even more dynamic in okay, what next? specific to two man game or other kind of constraints we've Jamie Munro: Yeah, totally. Danielle: been using. I think right now we're still in potentially Phase one, perhaps, of the CLA model. Jamie Munro: For sure. when I think of two man game, I think of the challenges being certain coverages, Danielle: For sure. Jamie Munro: a team that's gonna pressure and could get over picks all the time. and you just have a hard time, getting the step that you want, and and then all of a sudden they got this late switch that you're just feeling like you're just running into it and you got nothing. That tends to be that tends to be a real challenge. And then you start thinking about well, how can we use some constraints to make that better? Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: and I think that ends up being a real challenge because it's hard to create an advantage on that. and I think that, a simple one is really emphasizing the reject. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: and I think that that's probably something that most coaches, including myself, I I used to almost get annoyed when people reject and not use picks a lot, because I was trying to get them to learn how to use the pick, you know, when really the reject is the biggest key for setting it up. If you've got a good Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: athlete and there's a pass down pick down and they're just gonna continuously try to use this pick and get pushed over it and then run into a late switch when, if you can reject and just go underneath and not use the pick, that's that's one of the best, most effective ways of of freeing up a great athlete in two-man game. And so I started using a constraint where I would like give double points for the reject. Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: Because then the defense really had to take away the reject, which is important too. And then all of a sudden when the defense is like taking it away, Now you're gonna be able to get a better step to it. You know what I mean? And Danielle: There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Munro: and and so like there's a million sort of things like that. And there's just so many like challenges. Like you said, it's just so different all the time. And then trying to figure that out. another thing. Yeah, Danielle: Yeah, I'd say Jamie Munro: go ahead. Danielle: I was just saying I think right now the biggest thing we're doing is we were making our defenders kind of stay on but go through the pick, you know. So the pickers defender had to create a gap for 'cause we've seen a team yeah, to kind of stay on. We've seen it yeah, Jamie Munro: to get to get under it. Mm-hmm. Danielle: not fully under but kind of through, her teammate. through Jamie Munro: Under the pick, but above her teammate. Danielle: you know super outside of their comfort zone, but it's something we've seen and when defenses do that well it can it can be another thing that's just like a little tricky, a little uncomfortable for the offense. And so we, in our scoring system yesterday, like rewarded the defense when, they were able to do that well. And then I think what I've been learning offensively is my natural inclination is I want to tell the offense exactly what to do. And so I've been trying to myself just embrace we can give the offense some ideas to think about, right? But then we also can just let them play. It's not free play, But we can let them play within, that constraint or that system and as always, I'm seeing things that I wouldn't necessarily have thought of or taught, and Jamie Munro: For sure. Danielle: so had I restricted them at the beginning that might not have happened, But we were doing that 'cause we saw a team that was doing that and it gave our offense a little little hiccup, and so it's like, all right, let's do it in practice, and Jamie Munro: I love that. Danielle: there might be another time where yeah, we have the D do that really tight switch, you know. Jamie Munro: I think it's awesome. And I think that that's Danielle: I think it's yeah. Jamie Munro: a pick defense that men's across used to do a fair amount where they would drop off and try to get under. In men's across they go under on ball picks a lot more often than in women's across because of the long pole, short pole. Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: you know, really trying not to switch matchups when you can. I haven't tried that with women's across though, but I love it. I'm definitely gonna do it. And I think it's Honestly, for the defense, you need them to be able to get under and over. And a lot of times when you're getting under, it's going to be for a switch, but just the ability to actually just get under. There's so many aggressive defenders that really struggle with anything other than just going over picks, too. as much as Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: that's hard coverage to go against, it's also like leaves you in a really bad spot if that's what you're doing every time because you're probably gonna have two girls on the ball a lot. if they're if they're pretty athletic because it's the longer way around if you're going to go over every single time. And it's obviously a shortcut to get under, including off ball where it it's much more common to get under and stay. Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: But I love that constraint. And it also really teaches one of the most important concepts of the crack angle, which is setting picks at angles that eliminated defender's ability to get under. And I use Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: I use that as a constraint a lot. to try to get the pickers to understand how to take a good angle. and be able to encourage the on ball defender to have to get over and then be able to adjust from there for a little chip. but I I love that. I'm gonna use that constraint actually, Danielle. That's really cool. That's a really good way of doing it. It kind of requires that you're out on the ball though, Danielle: Cool. I hadn't heard of the crack angle before. Jamie Munro: You kinda gotta be out on the ball to do that. You can't do that as much, like closer to the eight, it's more like closer to the fourth. Yeah. Danielle: Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're we're looking at it like it's just twofold. we just want to we just want to become as dynamic and adaptable as we can be. And I think that just being a part of the ACC the last couple of years, just the level of competition is so tough. The coaching is so good and you just cannot draw up what's gonna happen for your team. in a game. You just can't. things just happen. and when the shit hits the fan, like you you want to have an adaptable group. And so I think that's part of me really adopting this CLA model is parti of it is just 'cause I like to learn and I'm always looking to get better. But part of it is because of like what I've actually experienced as a coach. Like I've experienced just being in those moments Where I'm like, man, I wish this adjustment that the defense just made wasn't rattling our players as much as it is, you know, or me as much as it is, you know, and you just can't you just can't predict those moments like at the high level coaches, like they're gonna make adjustments out of half times and timeouts and late game And you're just not gonna get it all in in the scouting report. It's just not gonna happen. Your players Jamie Munro: Follow. Danielle: physically they also need rest. And so being able to just create uncomfortable environments in practice I think just helps reinforce that ability to execute under pressure in a situation that you haven't been practicing all week leading up to the game. Jamie Munro: Well, there's it fits into, the five design principles that really kind of are what the CLA is all about. And what you're talking about here is variability to create an adaptable Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: player. you've used a ton of different examples of how you're trying to do things in different places and change things as much as you can. And that ultimately is what creates the adaptable player. And when you mention the word the great coaches making adjustments, you know, that's pretty much what you're doing all practice long as you're adjusting Danielle: Exactly. Jamie Munro: the constraints. And that your players get more used to making the adjustments of the constraints that you're asking them to do, whether it's an action or a coverage or a time or a space or whatever it is. and it's it's really key. Every coach uses and the coaches get so Danielle: And we get better at it too, as coaches. Jamie Munro: much better at it. It's so true. And the and the and the players and coaches get better at doing it together, which is so important. I the players that ultimately have to do it. but there's Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: gonna be things that you can see to be able to, you know, all that really matters. I did a podcast with Kevin Corrigan and he kept saying it doesn't matter what I know, it matters what they know, and it really matters what they do, honestly. Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: every coach uses constraints. doesn't matter what level or how CLA you are. but th those five design principles, I always have a hard time rattling them off, but it's Representative of the game, which is, context. That's offense and defense together. You talked about that. Another one is task simplification. And that that's simply like, you know, the ultimate context would be, you know, 12 on 12, 7 on seven, and simplifying it into smaller areas, which makes these opportunities more clear. You're talking about doing that too. And that's kind of like not too easy, not too hard. You know, you talked about that. You know, if you do three on twos all day long in West Jenny, it's just way too easy. You're not really Getting much out of it. But if you're doing seven on seven all the time, you just might never learn how to do the types of things Danielle: Right. Jamie Munro: that you're talking about. and the variability, the functional variability of like all of the things you're doing, and also getting your players to learn how to solve the same problem in different ways. Is that something you've Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: been thinking about from a variability perspective? Danielle: Let's see, solve the same problem in different ways. Jamie Munro: Meaning every athlete has a certain way that they're best at doing something. Maybe one player is great at rejecting, but they're not as good at using the pick. Or maybe they they tend to shoot or pass or dodge in the same way. They're creating advantages in the same ways. And I was actually having a call with my staff yesterday, and I was talking to Michael Sowers about this, who's one of the best men's players in the world. And I was like, Michael, the the thing that's been so cool about watching you continue to get better. in three years of doing this is is how many more different ways you're able to create advantages in the same two-man game with just different ways of doing things. And I think that's the ultimate upside for all players is to be able to be so variable in the way they're able to create advantages, even if it seems like a similar situation. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I I will say, and I I think you or someone else said this in the past and it's very true, for coaches who are getting into this, if we want to have a scoring system, let's say, to reward encourage certain behaviors without dictating certain behaviors. we'd like to see some goals scored in this way. But if we tell Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Danielle: them that they can only score this way, then everyone finds a way to cheat the drill. so you can't make it too black and white. but you gotta actually score it and you gotta actually announce the score and you gotta actually have a consequence. And I would say that's been a a growth area as well our practice planning has to be pretty on point. we gotta know when we're when we're doing this, who who's tracking the score, who's keep who's doing the shot clock, who's you know, most often the losing team has to do, you know, five push ups or something afterwards. But I do think those details kind of matter because otherwise The players feel like there's a scoring system, but it's never really gonna get, Jamie Munro: Doesn't matter. Danielle: announced and which can naturally happen as coaches because we're we're thinking about fifteen hundred things during the course of a practice. So you gotta you gotta kinda delegate. Yeah. Jamie Munro: Totally. It's hard to keep track of it game coach. Yeah. Danielle: And you so you can't do everything. Like we gotta kind of we can't track everything, but we try to be pretty intentional of making sure that. whatever it is that we say we're doing for that drill, that we actually are doing it and holding Jamie Munro: Yeah. Danielle: yeah creating some kind of encouragement or accountability to it. And that has been, something that I've learned through this process as well. Jamie Munro: It's so true. I have an idea on that though that I've been thinking a lot about, which is it's based on the importance of if you're gonna have a game and you're gonna have a scoring system, you you have to do it. But I I think we gotta find a way to get the the athletes to keep score. I really do. You can announce it Danielle: Yeah, it's Jamie Munro: if they didn't see it, let's just say, Maybe something happens off ball that you wanted them to do and the ball side doesn't even see it, right? you may have to announce that sometimes. But I I really believe that if the players know the score, it makes it a lot more powerful. Danielle: Mm. I don't disagree with that. I mean, that's my very first lacrosse coach. That was his adage that he always said. You know, great players always know the score. Jamie Munro: It's so true. Danielle: but so yeah, we certainly don't neglect, you know, there's some things we do where, yeah, they gotta score themselves. And I actually like that creates a little chippiness because there's always gonna be some disagreement of what happened and I Jamie Munro: I love that too. Mm-hmm. Danielle: think that's good for them and gives it a little bit more of that backyard element sometimes when they gotta score themselves and have, you know, two people disagree on, whether that point was earned. so yeah, I think we're Jamie Munro: I think Alex Sarama talks about this on some of the content I've checked out where he, if the if they don't call out the score, it doesn't count. And if you Danielle: No. Jamie Munro: don't know the score, you both lose. basically it it the the scoring system goes out the window. And it's very hard to scale it across multiple, goals and stuff if you have to have Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: too many coaches doing too many things. it makes it it makes it really hard. Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: And you mentioned, one of the design principles of manipulating constraints. And that's where the variability comes in too. How how much do you manipulate constraints during the course of a drill where you just change something in the same, you know, let's just say it's a 10-minute segment and you had, whatever, whatever it was. It could be keep away, it could be, a half-field thing, it could be zone, man, uneven, all even. But are you finding Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: that you're making changes to constraints during the course of a segment of five or ten or Whatever minutes. Danielle: A little bit. I'd say right now it's because, as I said at the beginning, a lot of the things we're some of the things we're doing now at practice, it's not a it's not like a drill that I've done before. there's obviously Jamie Munro: Yeah. Danielle: and so sometimes something that sounded really great in the office with your coaching staff that you're practice planning, you put it out there and it just it just isn't what you expected it to be and then you have to adjust on the fly. So I think some of our modifications have been more a result of that. Like, wait a sec, this drill is not getting us what we thought it was gonna get. And and I like that challenge because again, that is what, again, like fourth quarter, you're out of timeouts. Like you gotta figure it out as a coach. And I I like challenging myself and our staff in that way too and embracing the uncomfortability of yeah, we're gonna do this new thing that we haven't really done before at practice. I don't exactly know how it's gonna go, but I've put some thought into it. And if it's a crap drill, then we'll adjust it, you know? so Jamie Munro: So true. It happens all the time. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think a lot of times I used to be afraid of trying something different because if it wasn't going to work, and now I'm not afraid at all because I'm I'm going to make it work by just tweaking it in a different way. And you're Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: going to see you're still going to get something out of it. It's such a good point. And I was going to say when you're talking about your practice planning, I mean, how often is your practice plan you come up with actually what you did? you Danielle: Right. Jamie Munro: know, normally I Make a plan just like you do, and I love doing it, but then I have to go back and actually this is what I was gonna do, and this is actually what we did, and this is what I learned from. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jamie Munro: so wrapping up, we only got five minutes Danielle: Yeah. Jamie Munro: how do you take this approach when it's almost November in recruiting season again, start looking at the 2029s? How do you use this ecological approach to coaching in talent evaluation? Danielle: That's something I've been thinking about a lot, actually. I think maybe your podcast with Kelly when I was listening to it, I think I remember her talking about, trying to find that adaptability in recruits and not that we've never wanted to find that before, obviously, Jamie Munro: Yeah. Danielle: but just training the way that we've been training this fall has made me think a lot about our recruiting this upcoming November and just being really open minded and intentional with the type of players that we're looking for. And I'd say for us camps help a lot. I mean, recent, our 2028 class, I think every single one of them except for one, had come to at least one of our camps. And so that way, yes, can kind of there's things you can look for on the sidelines in regards to being able to evaluate a player's ability to make decisions and find success in different types of environments but you can also recreate that at your own camps and then measure it measure it Jamie Munro: Totally. NC. Danielle: there and so that's a very important part of our recruiting process as well There's just a natural comfortability if players come to our two or three day camp and done a lot of our drills and we've been able to see them how how do they handle challenges and something new, something that's uncomfortable, but I still intend to put a little bit of thought and maybe pen to paper with my staff as we approach the November recruiting tournaments. what specifically are we looking for beyond the usual, speed, skill, athleticism, like what else? and so I yeah, and how do we know when how do we know it when you see Jamie Munro: And what is decision making? how do you even evaluate that stuff? Danielle: it? Yeah. Jamie Munro: Yeah. A lot of times, I think, and I've said this on this podcast a few different times, but I think deception tends to be a really, really good indicator, just simply because not just the rote, one fake that they always do that works for them, because everybody's got something like that, but more like, seeing an opportunity and being able to somehow even just subtly look it off. you know, to be able to like just under s you know, when you see players that are exhibiting deception, what it usually means is they're baiting a defender into something they want them to do, which is kind of like thinking ahead, or they're, Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: said, just like subtly like looking off, not just a look away feed, but just even the way they look off the way they dodge or the look off the way they use a two man game. But again, it's so hard to see with various teams that may not play anything like you guys and they may Danielle: Mm. Jamie Munro: be a little bit more scripted in what they're doing. And so by obviously by having them at your camp and sort of seeing what kind of an aptitude they have for those things can be really helpful. And then same thing on and how about defensively, how do you evaluate Danielle: It's same thing. we've played a lot of zone the last couple of years, but we're not looking for zone defenders. We're looking for defenders. Like we wanna we wanna be able to play every type of defense. We don't wanna be we don't wanna have our hands tied if our if our zone is getting beat, like we wanna be able to switch into something else, you know, and that's something that we've been very intentional about as a coaching staff this fall and So that has to show up in our recruiting. defenders that can do different things and not only play one type of role. I actually had a coach a couple of years ago and we had been running a lot of zone at the time, and our players that were like, well, I'm an elbow, you I'm a rover. He's Jamie Munro: Sure. Danielle: like, No, you're not, you're a defender. your defender. everyone, you're it doesn't matter where you play in what your role is within the defense. we expect all of our defenders to be defenders and that here's what that means. and here's the skill set that everyone needs to have regardless of where you play in the zone. so I I'd say generally we try to hold to that in our recruiting as well when we evaluate defenders. we want to know that two, two or three years down the road if we're playing a different defense than we are today, that they can play that. Jamie Munro: Totally. Well, Danielle, thank you so much for coming on the show and and talking lacrosse. It's always Danielle: Thanks, Jamie. Jamie Munro: fun to talk lacrosse with you. Good luck in November recruiting. And let's definitely keep in touch and keep talking lacrosse. Danielle: Always. I appreciate it. Thanks, Jamie. Sara Munro: Thanks for listening to the JM three lacrosse podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and share with a teammate or coach who loves the game. We'll see you next time.