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The Prose of Conflict (with Shivani Mehta Bhatia) · It's All Poetry

• Nicole (00:01) hello dear listener. Welcome to another episode of It's All Poetry. Today I am incredibly excited to introduce you to Shivani Metta Bhatia. If you have not met her yet, you are in for such a treat in today's episode. as you know, as I've mentioned, we are doing a whole season on words that leave us with a bitter taste that we have trouble with that we don't always like using or experiencing they have a bit of a negative meaning for us in lots of ways. So today with Shivani we are focusing on the word conflict, which as a self-proclaimed Aneagram 9, very solid Aneagram 9, I always avoid conflict at any cost. And often that is to my own detriment. So I think this is an especially important word to spend a bit of time with, to deconstruct, to get to the bottom of, Because the truth is that often avoiding conflict causes more damage than simply working through it. So thank you again for being here. As always, your reviews mean a lot to us, so if you could take a moment to leave a five-star review on your platform of choice, that would be delightful. And without further ado, let's get into our conversation for today. Nicole (01:29) It starts. wait, there's gone. It Shivani (01:30) Yay. Nicole (01:31) was a weird countdown. It like didn't quite count down for me. Yeah. Shivani (01:33) It always takes a second. I also, by the way, love that it's all poetry logo in the corner of this. That's beautiful. It's f it feels very like fresh and fresh. I know. It's amazing. Nicole (01:40) Yeah. We're official around here. I am so glad to have you on, Shivani. you were like one of my first like six guests Shivani (01:51) Ha ha ha. Nicole (01:51) two years ago. We were just talking about this. Shivani (01:53) I can't believe it actually. Like I one, I remember when I first reached out to you about it, I like thought you were so established and like so it was like so fancy and kind of this whole thing. And I don't think I realized until like recently that that was actually early. Nicole (02:07) That was early, yeah. The podcast was still such a baby. But yeah, we were in Flexible Office with Cody Shivani (02:12) Yeah. Yes. Nicole (02:15) Cook Parrot and yeah, that's where we met. And now like I feel like you're one of my best business friends. You're like we've met in person. It's amazing. Yeah. Shivani (02:19) Same. I feel the same way. I know. my god. Yeah, we did. And there's like so few of our like online business friends that I've actually gotten to meet in person too. So it's like a special joy. Nicole (02:31) Yeah. well it's delightful to have you here again. I feel like it's kind of overdue. so Shivani (02:37) Thanks for having me. Nicole (02:38) for everyone listening, I have Shivani Metabatya with me today. And Shivani is a conflict facilitator and writer based in New York City, which is where we met for a beautiful brunch. Sh yeah, like a month ago, a month, two months ago. It wasn't the spring. Yeah. I guess it was. my gosh, time. Okay. Shivani (02:54) It was in the spring. That was like April. That was a while ago. But it feels like a month ago. Nicole (03:01) Yeah. right, but Shivani, more about Shavani. She works with senior leaders at justice-rooted organizations, especially queer folks and women of color, helping them use conflict as a diagnosis for change. And I'm sure we'll talk more about that. She came to this work after a decade inside public health, crisis response, and community-based care, where she kept noticing the same pattern, which is the most persistent the most persistent strategy problems. were almost always relational ones, rooted in power and story. Shivani is the author of Intimate Practice, an ongoing research project on birth, sex, and death work. It's beautiful. Is there anything else you want people to know? Yeah. That's good. Shivani (03:40) Thank you. No, that's that's gorgeous. Thanks. I'm like I w I actually low key I'm like, wait, now I like a copywriter take on that. I'm like, this is not me to like change this out. Nicole (03:53) No, it was perfect. My tripping up over the word persistent was just was just my tongue. Well, it's gonna come to no s as no surprise that we are talking about the word conflict. It's like all over your bio and this is the season Shivani (04:05) I can't wait. It is. Nicole (04:09) of difficult words, and conflict is like up there as one of the most like Shivani (04:12) Yeah. Nicole (04:13) difficult words. Like we don't wanna deal with conflict. I'm very conflict avoidant. Are you Shivani (04:17) Most people are. Almost I almost everyone is actually. Or I would say I would say we have a culture of conflict avoidance, so the Nicole (04:24) Yes. Shivani (04:24) vast majority of us are conflict avoidant in some way, shape, or form. Nicole (04:28) Yes. Yes. Well yeah. and I'm at an an Aneogram, Aneogram nine, which I think is like my main thing is like peace at all costs. Yeah. Shivani (04:38) interesting. I actually know so little about Enneagram or yeah, I just Nicole (04:42) Yeah. Shivani (04:42) I I never remember which one I am or how it how it works out. But yeah, I there's like a peace and harmony. My mom is like that too, really values peace and harmony. Which I mean my hot take Nicole (04:48) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. yeah. Shivani (04:54) is that conflict is actually a tool for peace and harmony, but that's different. We can talk about that later. Nicole (04:59) I mean, I believe that. I can believe that. Like you say that, and my brain is like, yes, that sounds true. Let's let's try to show ourselves how it's true so that we can live that life. because I do think conflict's important. Shivani (05:10) Yeah. Nicole (05:12) okay, so let's first talk about like Shivani (05:15) Yeah. Nicole (05:16) how conflict shows up like in your work right now. And then we'll go we'll Shivani (05:19) Mm, yeah. Nicole (05:20) go back in time in your life. But how is it show up now? Shivani (05:23) Yeah, well, I mean, as a facilitator, I that is like I get called in when conflict happens. So Nicole (05:29) Mm-hmm. Shivani (05:30) in a pretty literal way, that's a big that's like often the sparking point of it. but I also like I work with organizations and a through like a lot of change processes too. And so a lot of it is just like, mm. W I I will sometimes get called in when there's like a very active conversation that everyone is avoiding and no one knows how to have and they need a facilitator to help them have it. Like that's kind of the everything's on fire already version of that. But I also get called in when people are just like struggling with how to make change, whatever that change looks like. And often why they're struggling with it is because there's some sort of conflict avoidance happening of like we have to have a conversation that we don't totally know how to have. And part of what I can do to help is like almost reflect back at them, like, here's the conflict that I'm seeing. Do you want to address this? And and Yeah, that's often that's often what I end up doing in my work. Nicole (06:28) Yeah. I feel like there are layers of this. Like it feel it feels like Shivani (06:33) Yeah. Nicole (06:33) conflict avoidance is more the problem than conflict, the way you're talking about it. Yeah. Shivani (06:36) for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think it's I well it's it's conflict avoidance, but I also see conflict as sort of this like catalyst for change. And I keep thinking about like, you know, those physics or chemistry, I suppose, graphs of like potential energy and kinetic energy and how like catalyst is the thing that like reduces the potential energy of something. I think of conflict as a catalyst in that way where it like redu it reduces the the amount of effort or time or change or like mm Yeah, effort or time resources, I suppose it would take to like actually make a change happen if we can like get to it faster and in a more supported way and in a safer way also. Like I think part of why we're all conflict avoided is because it's really unsafe. It it feels Nicole (07:18) Hm. Shivani (07:19) it feels and can be, and we like usually have histories of unsafety with conflict. that's not a word, but it's fine. Nicole (07:26) It is now. Shivani (07:29) so yeah, conflict avoidance but also like a f a fear of when conflict has gone badly, which I think is like actually a really realistic fear. Yeah. Nicole (07:38) Yeah, yeah. Cool. What do you think conflict meant for you like as a child? Like what is your first recollection of conflict? Shivani (07:45) God. Fear avoidance. I was a kid who really loved rules and was like Nicole (07:55) Mm. Shivani (07:55) very obedient and would make up rules for myself if I didn't have them or like wasn't sure what they were, for like better and for worse. And so I think my I also like really loved peace and harmony. I like very I felt very destabilized by conflict. I think I felt very sensitive to conflict also. Like sensitive in the sense of it would like physically sort of affect me pretty fast. Like I could I could feel it in my body when like other people were in conflict or or other people were tense. And so and I didn't like that. And I wanted to Nicole (08:27) Mm. Shivani (08:27) be the key peacekeeper and I wanted to make it go away. And and then I think in my like later childhood, early adulthood maybe, like sort of became I was like, I'm gonna say the thing, I'm gonna like go, I'm gonna push it. and I c I could it was like not always productive, also. It was, you know, it was Nicole (08:48) Hm. Shivani (08:48) the kind of conflict where like I didn't always know when to stop arguing with somebody. Nicole (08:51) Mm. Shivani (08:52) I re I really like to be right. I'm an oldest daughter, like it's very important to me to be right. And like Nicole (08:58) same. Same by the way, I guess Yeah. Yeah. Shivani (09:03) That's not always healthy or useful or like beneficial for relationships, I suppose. so yeah, I I would say like, you know, I I often get this like question or almost pushback of like, but you do this because you're like good at conflict. And I was like, no, I was really bad at conflict for like most of my life because I think most of us are not prote are I don't sound like not bad at conflict, but in the sense of we're not practiced at conflict. And I think the Nicole (09:29) Hm. Shivani (09:30) One of the big differences, one of the big things I've learned now in my work is I teach and practice conflict as a skill set, which means like we can practice it. We can mess up. We like, in fact, have to mess up in order to get better at it. We can like learn it with each other and have to often learn it with each other. which just is like it feels like a lot of relief for somebody who like always felt a lot of tension physically around Nicole (09:55) Mm-hmm. Shivani (09:55) conflict. Like that's an approach that that brings me and a lot of people I work with like a lot of just yeah, relief. Nicole (10:03) Hmm, yeah. Yeah, I think like the fear of conflict, right, is the the consequence of it. Like what if this Shivani (10:08) Yeah. Nicole (10:09) person, like what if this person and I can't agree and they leave and I never see Shivani (10:12) Yeah, yeah. Nicole (10:13) them again? I think like that's my deepest fear when it comes to conflict. Yeah, yeah. Shivani (10:16) Totally, totally. Yeah. And a lot of us have lost relationships when conflict goes badly. Like that's yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Nicole (10:24) Yeah. I feel like there are categories of conflict. I'm like thinking of other words we could do, like branch off from this episode and be like defensiveness of like different categories of conflict Shivani (10:29) Completely. my god, yes. Nicole (10:34) and we could like organize them in a chart of or a line of graph of like good Shivani (10:38) Yeah. Nicole (10:39) to bad, or maybe that's two, but there'd be like a a gradient of conflict. Shivani (10:42) Completely, completely, completely. Yeah. One of the things I often will talk about is I don't see so when I'm talking about conflict, I'm almost always talking about generative conflict, which is a kind of conflict that like Nicole (10:53) Mm. Shivani (10:54) creates something. and Nicole (10:56) Mm. Shivani (10:56) that is like in opposition to destructive conflict, which to me like really is rooted in systems of oppression and power dynamics and like abusive behavior. Like once there's once we get into abusive behavior, like A lot of the times the answer is like leave that situation or get yourself out of that situation, you know, like or or leave that relationship even if it comes to that. But yeah, a lot of the a lot of what I'm trying to optimize for or I think what we can be practicing is like more of that generative conflict so that we're not enacting these like abuses and harms on each other. Nicole (11:30) Yeah, yeah. I love that. okay, let's look at some of the definitions and and see how we feel about them. So the first thing we'll do, yeah me too. Shivani (11:34) Yeah. I'm so excited for this. I looked up zero definitions before this because I was like, I can't wait for Nicole's take. Great. Nicole (11:44) That's my favorite way for guests to arrive. Like, I'm like, I know that some people want to prepare, you know, but it's so nice when we can just like react to it together. Shivani (11:50) Yes. Nicole (11:52) so I'm gonna read the modern definition first, and I do Shivani (11:54) Okay. Nicole (11:55) want us to think about it as like this is not a final draft because words Shivani (11:59) Yeah. Nicole (11:59) are always changing. Like we have full permission to be like, I agree with this, I don't agree with this. Like we don't have to like everything that's in the dictionary just because Shivani (12:07) Yeah. Nicole (12:07) it's in the dictionary. So that's our I'm setting our scene. Shivani (12:10) Ha ha ha. Nicole (12:11) okay, and we also do have a noun and verb. Shivani (12:14) Okay. yeah. Nicole (12:15) So in noun, and as I read it, you can just like take mental notes or real notes or Shivani (12:19) Mm. Nicole (12:19) however you want of anything that stands out to you Shivani (12:21) Okay. Nicole (12:23) or that you disagree with. Shivani (12:25) Okay. Nicole (12:25) Okay, conflict noun. Fight, battle, war. That's the number Shivani (12:31) Yeah. Nicole (12:31) one definition in Merriam-Webster. and the example they give is class conflict or armed conflict. Shivani (12:37) Okay. Nicole (12:39) And then the second definition, we have three total. So the second definition is 2A, 2B. 2A is a difference that prevents agreement, antagonistic state or action, as of divergent ideas, interests, or person. And that's examples of that are a conflict of principles, a scheduling conflict. Shivani (12:59) Mm. Nicole (13:01) 2B is a mental struggle resulting from incompatible or opposing needs, drives, wishes. or external or internal demands. So yeah, internal cost. Shivani (13:10) that's interesting. That one's okay, this is very interesting. Nicole (13:15) Opposing needs in your own head or body. That happens to me all the time. Shivani (13:19) Yeah. Nicole (13:21) okay. And then the third definition for noun, and then I'll pause. third is the opposition of persons or forces that gives rise to the dramatic action in a drama or fiction, the conflict in a play between the king and the archbishop. That's the example giving. Shivani (13:38) Wow, I would not have put that in like a le the level of a dictionary definition. That's really fascinating. Huh. Okay. my god, this is incredible. Nicole (13:45) Yeah. So that's the noun. Let's pause, discuss. Shivani (13:50) Wow, I am gonna be thinking about this for days. I know, this is so interesting to me. my gosh. Nicole (13:54) barely got started. It's gonna be so much Yeah. Shivani (13:59) This is why I love not looking things up beforehand. Cause I'm like, Nicole (14:02) Yes. Shivani (14:07) Okay, I have like so many different directions I could go down. I think one the the first one, I mean the first thing that stuck out to me is that the first definition is like quite violent. Like that, Nicole (14:16) Mm-hmm. Shivani (14:17) and that makes sense to me too. I mean, I feel like it feel it really tracks with what we were talking about in terms of like destructive conflict. Like that is very much Nicole (14:24) Mm-hmm. Shivani (14:24) a type of conflict. and Like that is not the kind of conflict that I am mediating necessarily. Like pretty explicitly not no, I am decidedly not doing that. Nicole (14:33) You're not going into battles. Shivani (14:37) and also I think, you know, I I we were talking about conflict avoidance before too. I think so much of why we are avoidant i about conflict is because it feels really violent. And so it it like Nicole (14:48) Mm-hmm. Shivani (14:49) also is a very healthy response in a lot of ways. Like it makes sense as a response in a lot of ways. I I You know, we have a conflict avoidant culture, but it is because a lot of our experiences with conflict have been incredibly violent, incredibly painful, incredibly destructive. Yeah. Say Nicole (15:04) Mm. I would definitely run from fight, battle, or war. I would flee. Yeah. Yeah. Shivani (15:13) yeah, that was my first my first reaction. I'm like looking back at my notes because I'm I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna be thinking about all three of these as both like similar but different ones. My the second the second definition about like divergent principles and more of the mental struggle struggle, I was thinking about like cognitive dissonance and and I see this both in like in organizations where like the organization is a whole and you can think of teams or like departments or offices or even people within that as different parts of a whole or like a community Nicole (15:46) Mm. Shivani (15:47) as a whole. like I I think about that as sort of an internal versus external sort of struggle or like the cognitive dissonance of holding two things as true at the same time. But I also think about that as this very internal a lot of the like coaching work that I do one on one with people is like practicing some of the almost like parts work sort Of inspired, like you can you can actually hold two competing truths within yourself at the same time. Like you can, you know, want to rebuild a relationship with someone and also like never ever want to go back. And those two Nicole (16:18) Yeah, yeah. Shivani (16:19) things can be true at the same time and and like also be in severe conflict with each other and Part of the resolution of that is actually being able to like integrate all of those voices together in appropriate ways and like understand how to how they all kind of fit into a whole or accept them all as being true, like as kind of a first step. So yeah, I'm I'm obsessed with that, like internal and external as a form of conflict. yeah, that's fantastic. Nicole (16:46) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well an internal conflict can often be part of external conflict. Yeah. I feel like lots Shivani (16:57) Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (17:00) of fights that like my partner and I have is because I don't like I haven't quite figured it out yet. So I can't clearly articulate my internal conflict. Mm-hmm. Shivani (17:05) For sure. For sure. And I think a lot of how we can sometimes figure out our internal conflicts is like through external conflict. Like we have to kind Nicole (17:13) Yes. Shivani (17:13) of externalize it to like make it to to you know, start to integrate all those parts or start to like understand even what the parts are saying or like what exists as like what's all on the playing field here. Yeah. Nicole (17:25) Yeah, yeah. and then conflict in a play, which I love. It reminds me of like learning Shivani (17:30) Yeah. Nicole (17:31) that like in elementary school, that like chart they would give you when you're and it's like conflict right at the top. or maybe conflict is earlier. Yeah. Shivani (17:34) Yes. Yeah, completely. Completely. my god, I haven't thought about that chart in a while. Yeah. Nicole (17:44) one part here that stood I Shivani (17:46) Yeah. Nicole (17:46) think because 2A seems to be the closest to your work of what you do that like Shivani (17:49) Yeah, yeah. Nicole (17:51) interpersonal, right? Like divergent ideas, interests, you know, people Shivani (17:53) Mm, mhm. Nicole (17:54) in a group. But it says prevents agreement. And to me that Shivani (17:58) Mm. Nicole (17:58) felt like unsolvable. Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but that's kind of what I'm supposed to do here, I guess. But prevents agreement, it it made it feel like they were the definition is trying to make it like you can't, you can't fix this. Shivani (18:11) That's interesting because I that is yeah, that's also really interesting. I d I don't ever promise agreement in my conflict Nicole (18:18) Mm. Shivani (18:19) work. it's actually why I like don't always like calling myself a mediator specifically, is cause I think a lot of mediation is about like what is the res or conflict resolution. That's also like a word that I t I actually really try to not use. Because there's sort of this expectation of we are going to tie this all up in a neat little bow and everyone's gonna be happy and it's gonna be very like Pollyanna and and like kind of like a peace and harmony, but like in a superficial way, as opposed to a much more integrated, holistic sort of way. I don't know, that's quite that's quite how how I wanna say that, but that's the closest I've got right now. I think the premise of conflict is something that prevents agreement is I think it's like a first pass. But like part of what we can do, a lot of like, you know, what I do in terms of facilitation techniques sometimes are like ha like can we live with this? You know, there's like different kinds of agreement we can get to. Sometimes we all have to be in consensus agreement where like nobody can disagree with this. But even within consensus disagree or c consensus agreement, there's kind of levels to that too. Like one of the the facilitator techniques I'm like thinking of immediately is this Nicole (19:21) Mm-hmm. Shivani (19:22) like five. fingered one of like can is yes I'm all in is a five-fingered thing. Three fingers is I like I can live with this. I won't I won't block it, but like it's not my favorite. And a zero or a one is like I am absolutely blocking this. Like there's something very serious about this. And we can have different levels of agreement within that also. We can have these sort of places of like where do we actually need to compromise? Where do we actually need to just stay in disagreement? Nicole (19:53) Mm. I'm so glad you said all that. Cause I I think I was like up until the moment, I was picturing like a Pollyanna thing. I was like, I was totally being like, yeah, solve conflict. but yeah, okay. That's wonderful. Thank you. first mind blown moment check. Shivani (20:04) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicole (20:11) okay, let's look at conflict as a verb. Shivani (20:13) Okay. Nicole (20:14) okay, we've got three definitions again, but they're shorter. So the first one is to be different, opposed, or contradictory. So to fail to be an agreement or accord, his statement conflicts with the facts. one B is to create conflict of interest. So barred from engaging in outside employment that could conflict with their original duties. Right? Like Shivani (20:37) Mm. Nicole (20:37) you can't take on a new c another client because it conflicts with this other client that you have. so that's one. Two is to happen at the same time, very simply, this Shivani (20:47) Mm, yeah. Nicole (20:48) appointment conflicts with another meeting. Shivani (20:51) Yeah. Nicole (20:52) that might be the way I use conflict most often in like in my everyday language. I can't, I have a conflict. Shivani (20:54) Yeah, same totally same. Nicole (21:01) and then there's a third definition which is marked as archaic, so no longer Shivani (21:04) Okay. Nicole (21:04) used, to contend in warfare. It doesn't give an example, I wish it did. Shivani (21:09) yeah, that's interesting. to contend in warfare. Is that like to hold a belief or I actually don't know that I know of a good definition of contend at the moment, right? Like like that's definitely a word that I use, but now like Nicole (21:22) Me either. I know I was thinking the same thing. Hold on, I'm just gonna type into Google define content. Shivani (21:31) hearing it as a definition, I'm like, what does that mean? Nicole (21:33) Yeah. it's to struggle or compete. I feel like I could have used it in a sentence, but I couldn't have said the definition. Yeah. Or to argue Shivani (21:36) To struggle. Yeah, same. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. Nicole (21:42) or assert. she contends that the plan will fail. Or contending with a storm, right? Shivani (21:46) Yeah, okay. Okay, okay. Nicole (21:50) so to contend in warfare, to I I conflict with this war? I don't know. Shivani (21:56) Yeah. Is that so like fight in like to Yeah, that's that's I would do wish they had an example for that one. That would be useful. Yeah, that's okay. Nicole (22:04) Me too. we're gonna be able to do is guess right now. Yeah. but yeah. Any anything else stand out in the other ones? Like Shivani (22:12) i I it's I think it's it's interesting that I mean, for just as a sound thing, conflict as a as a noun versus conflict as a verb is sort of fascinating to me. Nicole (22:21) my gosh, yeah. Yeah. Shivani (22:24) And like something that I've definitely thought about before, but doesn't always it doesn't like stick in my brain very often. So I think just being Nicole (22:29) Yeah. Shivani (22:30) confronted with that is sort of interesting. I I liked the first the first verb definition there of like just to be different, like I think is sort of interesting. and both like has the sort of moral weight to it in that it's like conflict, but also does is sort of this simplifying thing too of like you can just be different and that can be a conflict and like that's okay. Like it's that's that Nicole (22:58) Yeah. Shivani (22:58) also is a thing that that I find has a lot of relief. One of my sister's best friend, best friends really likes to say or like grew up kind of hearing her say, People like different things and that's okay. And that's what this reminds me of. Like you people like different things and that's Nicole (23:09) Yeah. That's beautiful. Shivani (23:12) okay. People have conflicts and that's okay. Or conflicting Nicole (23:16) Yeah. Shivani (23:16) beliefs or, you know, or it I guess it can be okay. Right. Nicole (23:19) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yes, yes. Again, we've got that, those categories you talked about earlier. Yeah. constructive, destructive. Shivani (23:24) Totally, totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (23:30) so let's look at some synonyms. Before Shivani (23:32) Yeah. Nicole (23:33) I read some to you, what are some that jump to mind as synonyms of conflict? I know this feels like a pop quiz, but I'm just curious. Shivani (23:39) Yeah. I actually the first one that came to mind was fight. interesting. Okay. Nicole (23:46) Mm. That's the first one on the list. So yeah. Yeah. Shivani (23:51) yeah, fight, argument, disagreement, for like the noun version of that. Nicole (23:57) Mm. Shivani (23:59) Yeah, those are the ones that kind of Nicole (24:00) Yeah. Shivani (24:01) first jumped to mind. Nicole (24:02) Yeah. No, those are great. Same. we also have misunderstanding here. Yeah, which is good. squabble is here, which it like makes it sound Shivani (24:06) Yeah, yeah. I like that. That's a great word. Nicole (24:11) like, you know, a little less serious. We're having a squabble. Shivani (24:15) Yeah. Nicole (24:16) clash, dilemma, Shivani (24:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole (24:20) confusion is here. Shivani (24:23) that's interesting. Nicole (24:25) Mm. Shivani (24:25) That's very interesting. Okay. Nicole (24:27) Yeah. I mean you can have lots of conflicts out of misunderstandings, I think. Yeah. Shivani (24:30) Completely, completely. And a lot of c like confusion around conflict too. I once I once facilitated a conflict. I was like I did all this pre-work with like 12 different people. with I had them all fill out these worksheets and like tell me stories of what had happened and kind of what was what was going on, what the story of this conflict was. for like two weeks before we actually had the the facilitated session. I walk into the facilitated session, I'm like doing my like little spiel in the beginning thing and 10 minutes in, they're like, I don't know why we're here. We don't have a conflict. And I was like, What? And I yeah, exactly. Nicole (25:05) Well, I don't know why I'm here then. Shivani (25:08) I think about that ever like that was the thing that came to mind with confusion of like, we sometimes just have very differing definitions of like what even counts as a conflict. Like, is it just a squabble? Is it a misunderstanding? Or is it like this Nicole (25:20) Hmm. Shivani (25:21) fundamental disagreement in values and like misalignment and how we show up in behaviors and all the rest of it? Nicole (25:27) Yeah. Shivani (25:28) Yeah, that's the thing that came to mind with confusion, but also the these like different scales. Nicole (25:33) Yeah. my favorite one here, well Jeremy Shivani (25:38) Yeah. Nicole (25:38) Jeremy put this in. It's Argy Bargie. Have you heard this? Do you Shivani (25:41) No. Nicole (25:43) know this? Apparently it's a British term for argue or haggle. I was like, I have not heard this. Shivani (25:47) my god, that's incredible. Nicole (25:50) and also bicker, which is cute. makes me think of like kids bickering. Shivani (25:52) Okay, that's great, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nicole (25:57) do you think a group of people can ever exist together and not have conflict on some degree? Shivani (26:07) if they do, I don't trust it. Nicole (26:12) Mm, yes, yeah. Shivani (26:14) I think it is okay. My s secret confession is that I've been binge watching Secret Lives of Mormon Wives recently. And I bring that Nicole (26:25) Amazing. Shivani (26:27) up because They there's like it's like a group of for anyone who has not seen it, like a group of, I think, eight women in Provo, Utah. And a lot of what they're talking about is like this desire for Peace and harmony in this like very superficial way. We like all need to get along. Nicole (26:46) Mm. Shivani (26:46) There should not be conflict. It's a problem that we have conflict right now. and there's like a couple people who are like addressing it in really interesting ways and also like practicing boundaries in some really interesting ways. And then there's other people who are like overstepping a lot of those boundaries because they have this desire for a lack of conflict. And they're like creating conflict by having this desire for a lack of conflict. Nicole (27:11) Yeah. Shivani (27:11) so Yeah, I think people can have a really different definition of what kind of counts as you know, having a presence or lack of conflict. but yeah, if I if there's like yeah, a group of people without any conflict, I wouldn't totally trust that like there isn't really any conflict. I went to yeah, sorry, God. Yeah. Nicole (27:30) Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I agree with you. No, no, I'm just I'm agreeing, agreeing. Yes. Go on. Shivani (27:38) No, I was I was just gonna pre like, I don't know, preface whatever. I'm like say the only reason I'm watching this show right now, which has like taken over my life for the last week, is because I went to a talk the other night with Roxanne Gay and it was like hosted by the feminist press about black feminism. And Roxanne Gay like, This is white anthropology, actually, to watch the secret lives of Mormon wives. So that's what I've been up to. Nicole (28:03) That's interesting. Now I wanna watch it. I love that. Shivani (28:07) It's teaching me a lot about conflict. Nicole (28:10) I mean, we we've been watching traitors, like binging traitors, traitors UK, traders have you gotten into this? Shivani (28:15) I have not Nicole (28:16) Yeah. It's there's so much to watch. Shivani (28:19) my god. Nicole (28:20) but there's so much conflict. I mean, it's basically like in the name, right? Like you're trying to find the traitors. Like that's the whole premise. Is there's like Shivani (28:23) Yeah, yeah. fantastic. Nicole (28:25) the whole group is trying to identify who are the traitors among us. Yeah. Shivani (28:28) Ugh, I love it. This is why I love shows with like Traders and Couples Therapy and all of the rest of it. I'm like, I just I analyze conflict in my work and I also want it in my reality TV, apparently. Nicole (28:36) Yeah. Great. I mean there's a reason that the third definition in in the dictionary is Shivani (28:43) Yeah. Nicole (28:43) like the storytelling. Like it is a story Shivani (28:45) Yeah. Nicole (28:46) without conflict is not as interesting to consume. Shivani (28:48) It's not. And actually the thing that I thought about with that that definition too was the like concept of authorship. And that like I one of the first exercises I have people do in in a in a facilitation too is like write the story of this conflict. w we're telling each other stories all the time. We're telling ourselves stories Nicole (29:14) Mm. Shivani (29:14) all the time. And so much of conflict can be in the stories that we tell ourselves about like like I you know, if you and I had an argument, for example, and I was like, okay, Nicole must hate me now because we had this ar we would never, but like, you know what I mean? I know I saw that. I was so sorry. Yeah. Nicole (29:27) I just my heart broke a little. I was like, no. It's okay, go ahead. For the sake of the example, we can continue. Shivani (29:37) but like, you know, if we I I think a lot of the a lot of what causes us pain in conflict is the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves or about the other person in conflict. And Nicole (29:48) Mm. Shivani (29:49) that was sort of the other piece that I thought of with that like cr creating or the conflict of a story is we, you know, we live and think and work and talk to each other in stories. And so if all stories have to have some sort of conflict, sometimes we'll like introduce that or like kind Nicole (30:06) Mm. Shivani (30:06) of put it in there. But yeah, I think it's also so dependent on like the stories that we tell ourselves, the authorship that we like allow ourselves or don't allow ourselves, like who gets to tell the story of this conflict also Nicole (30:18) Yeah. Shivani (30:19) is a pretty profound one across all of these definitions, right? Like who gets to tell the story of war or violence or whatever else too? Yeah, there's there's a lot of different directions. I think we can take that. Yeah. I know, same. Nicole (30:30) my gosh, yeah. I'm like, I don't even know which thread to follow right now. No, but no, that's amazing. Yeah, absolutely. That's yeah. because there's such different scales to that. Like Shivani (30:39) Yeah. Nicole (30:40) it's like, yeah, it could just be the story I'm telling myself. It could be the story that I've been told about the history of the world. Yeah. Shivani (30:43) Right. Completely. Completely. Nicole (30:49) let's jump back 200 years. Yeah. 1828. Shivani (30:50) Okay. Yeah. Nicole (30:54) so the preface I like to give this is this is from Webster's dictionary. So it's Shivani (30:57) Okay. Nicole (30:58) very like his purpose of writing this dictionary was to establish American English. So Shivani (31:04) Mm-hmm. Nicole (31:04) that's his goal in like everything. And it's always very like just rooted in that, like trying to Shivani (31:09) Yeah. Nicole (31:09) differentiate, you know, from England and and yeah. Shivani (31:13) That's such an interesting context to offer too. And that's like, yeah, that's very that's that adds this whole other layer of authorship and story and like who gets to tell the story of language? Nicole (31:20) Yeah. Yes, yes. And that's why we like have to keep that in mind because this man had an agenda, you know? Shivani (31:25) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nicole (31:30) so there are seven definitions. I'm gonna read them all. So Shivani (31:32) Okay. Okay. Nicole (31:34) because I think we just need to. so conflict noun, from Latin. and it has here as the synonyms to strike, to f to flog, to lick. Shivani (31:45) Huh. Lick as in whip, I'm assuming. Okay. Nicole (31:47) Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let me I'm guessing, yeah, I'm guessing it's not like like a cat. Okay, so let me go into more detail on those. We have a striking or dashing against each other as of two moving bodies in opposition, violent Shivani (32:05) Okay. Nicole (32:05) collision of substances as a conflict of elements or waves, a conflict of particles in ebulsion. Abulsion. This is like a science thing, right? Yeah. I gotta look that up. Shivani (32:17) Okay. I guess. Sounds like it. Nicole (32:22) Yeah. I think that's like I'm just gonna confirm. Shivani (32:26) Is that like a precursor to emulsion? Nicole (32:30) The act of boiling, yeah. So a sudden outburst. Yeah. Bubbling up Shivani (32:33) interesting. Okay. Okay. Nicole (32:34) as a liquid as it heats, or a sudden outburst, especially of emotion, like an ebull ebullition of rage or joy. Hmm. Shivani (32:41) Interesting. Okay. Nicole (32:42) Yeah. But conflict of particles. a fighting combat as between men and applicable to individuals or to armies, as the conflict was long and desperate. Shivani (32:54) Mm. Nicole (32:55) How very odyssey. Shivani (32:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Of course, yeah. I was gonna say that's very specific kind of fighting. Nicole (32:57) Yes, but only between men. So I don't know what happens when women have a fight. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. number three is contention, strife, or contest. In our Shivani (33:11) strife, I like that one. Nicole (33:13) Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Strife. That feels very 1828. Shivani (33:16) Mm-hmm. Nicole (33:17) In our last conflict, four of his five wits went halting off. Shivani (33:22) That is a beautiful sentence. my God. Nicole (33:27) I don't know I fully understand it. Do you? What is that? Shivani (33:33) I what I w like the the image that came to mind is you know when you're like in a big argument and you feel like words are sort of deserting you, like you're getting too heated for words, like that's the the image that came to mind for me of like Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, ability Nicole (33:47) Yeah, like your your imagination, your common sense going away. Like yeah, your judgment. Got it. Shivani (33:53) to talk, ability to find language, ability to like express yourself. Nicole (33:58) I like that it's like four of five. Like, wow. okay, number four, Shivani (34:00) Yeah, exactly. That's incredible. Nicole (34:04) struggling with difficulties, a striving to oppose or overcome. The good man has a perpetual conflict with his evil propensities. Hmm. Yes, yes. a struggle. yes, a hundred percent. Yes, strong New England vibes. Shivani (34:15) Very puritanical in nature. Yeah. Strong New England vibes, Daniel Webster. Nicole (34:27) a struggling of the mind, distress or anxiety. And it says Colosseans 2.1, and so we have that here. They get it can get very religious, the 1828 definition is very Christian. Shivani (34:35) Mm. Mm-hmm. Nicole (34:39) for I would that you knew what great conflict I have for you and for them, at Laudicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh. I actually don't know who's speaking there. Yeah. Shivani (34:51) So interesting. Hm, okay. Nicole (34:56) number six, I love this one. The last struggle of life, agony, the Shivani (35:01) Mm. Nicole (35:02) conflict with death. Shivani (35:04) Wow. Nicole (35:05) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I figured you would, I know. I'll just read this last one then and we can go back and talk about that. opposing Shivani (35:07) I have lots to say about that. Okay. Nicole (35:15) operations, countervailing action, collision, opposition. In exercising the right of free men, the man of religion experien experiences no my gosh, sorry, I'm reading that very wrong. In exercising the right of free men, the man of religion experiences no conflict between his duty and his inclination. Shivani (35:36) Huh. Okay. That's interesting. How much think about this one? Nicole (35:39) Sure. Shivani (35:40) There's a lot to think about in all of these. Wow. Nicole (35:43) I know. Too much. Shall we talk about death? Shivani (35:47) I love that as the question also. And yes, always, please. Nicole (35:51) Yes. Shivani (35:58) Yeah, wow. Okay, sorry. I there's like so much in this. My brain is also going in so many different directions. Nicole (36:01) Yeah, take a minute. Take a minute. Shivani (36:05) one I will say before we start talking about death, I'm interested that anxiety shows up in this or like struggle of mind and distress shows up in this. I like don't know enough about Bible references to be able to kind of put that piece into it, but as a secular definition, I it's that's fascinating because it feels very related to like the internal conflict and I don't know that I have seen like anxiety as the emotional state represented in the definition of conflict, but it is so much part and parcel of it. So anyway, that was that was sort of fascinating to me. Yeah. Nicole (36:35) Yeah. And you don't think of eighteen twenty eight as thinking a lot about like mental health. So yeah. Yeah. Shivani (36:39) Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I'm like, I don't know the Bible reference well enough to be able to say, like, is does this mean something different then and also if we like take it through today's mental health lines? I'm like, that's fascinating actually. Nicole (36:49) Yeah. Yeah. Shivani (36:54) okay, yeah, the last struggle of life. Nicole (36:57) Yes. Shivani (36:59) I love this. I love this because I think I d I actually really do think that a lot of our fear of conflict is actually a fear of mortality. And it always feels Nicole (37:08) Ooh. Shivani (37:09) a little bit grandiose and ridiculous to say that out loud, but but I actually think we experience it as like a pretty existential threat in a lot of ways. Nicole (37:19) Yes. Shivani (37:20) And that's like that's like really backed up by evolutionary psychology and evolutionary like neurobiology also of like we, you know, we are a social species. We like very much were of we evolved to need each other and to to be very communal. And so the like threat of ostracization or abandonment, which we like talked about very early on, like the fear of like people are gonna hate me and I'm gonna be left alone, like that Nicole (37:43) Mm-hmm. Shivani (37:43) is actually both a social threat, but also this like very mortal threat. Like the the fear of that is or the consequence of that is if I am left alone, I will die. Or if I am abandoned, I will die. because that was once true. And so yeah, I think there's this like evolutionary sort of piece of it of I think we we tend to This is why I'm I I like I I you know, I like kind of laugh about the conflict avoidance and also I'm like it it's like a real thing. I like have a lot of tenderness for us as a culture, I think, around it because it it has been such a real threat. It like is biolo like neurobiologically such a real threat and we experience it as we can experience it as this like true fight or flight response or fight, flight, freeze, fawn sort of response, like stress response that is connected to a fear of death. and like, you know, we live in a world where likely if you start arguing with someone, you're not going to like die in a battle or get chased by a super saber-toothed tiger or something like that. Like those are not necessarily the Nicole (38:48) Yeah. Shivani (38:48) like active threats that we're up against now, but but I that's like where where it's rooted and I think we can like have a lot of compassion for ourselves around that. the other piece that I love about this definition is I like to say that all change work is is both birth and death work. My background's in birth Nicole (39:08) Hm. Shivani (39:09) and death work and so I like I do I do a lot of that or I like I th I I use that as a metaphor pretty frequently, but I also really believe it. Like in order to make So all change requires some kind of loss, right? When whenever we change something, there is some kind of loss that we experience of like whatever the past state was. That can be like a really tiny loss or it can be a really huge loss. It could be like the end of like if you're, you know, moving somewhere. That's like a change state of you are not in your home anymore, or you're like creating a new home. But there's like loss exper like around around that. And so all change is loss, all loss is some kind of a death and requires some kind of a grief work. So Nicole (39:49) Hm. Shivani (39:51) yeah, I think there is I don't know the this last struggle of life or conflict with death is both this this you know evolutionary sort of stage but I also think a really apt place for like you have to kind of get close to the veil in order to like be okay moving through conflict or like you know know that you're going to be facing the veil a little bit if you're gonna get really in touch with some very intensive conflict. Nicole (40:17) Yeah. I mean, I know for me, Shivani (40:18) Yeah. Nicole (40:18) like in in conflict, my body can respond like I'm gonna like it Shivani (40:22) Yeah. Nicole (40:22) can feel and I think people people say like I feel like I'm dying, you know, like they'll say that often when they have conflict Shivani (40:25) Yes. Yeah. Nicole (40:28) and there's nothing physically like wrong. Shivani (40:30) Yeah. Nicole (40:31) but your heart beats so fast and you like it just feels like death. Shivani (40:33) Totally. Totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And and I think you like in kind of the worst versions too, you know, if it like I've had relationships end where it was like that some part of me died with that person leaving or with Nicole (40:48) Mm. Shivani (40:49) with that relationship ending or whatever it might be. And I And that's both metaphorical but also kind of literal. Like there's experiences that like no longer exist. There's there's selves that no longer exist after experiences like that. And I I think there's a a lot of also what what bad conflict work looks like is sort of glossing over that grief and loss Nicole (41:13) Mm. Shivani (41:14) of like, you know, if we if we have to push through to a pe to a this again, this like superficial peace and harmony agreement sort of space, there's sort of this like almost spiritual bypassing of of but we all just have to get along or we all have to be okay with this. We like can't acknowledge that like there's grief and loss and people experience that differently and like that's okay. That's like part it can be okay. That's part of this process also. Nicole (41:40) Yeah. I think there's also grief with change of like who you were, like what you lost in it, but who you'll never get to be on this other path. Yeah. Yeah. The future that's never gonna happen 'cause it's like this was a ver divergence. Yeah. Shivani (41:47) Yeah. Totally. Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Nicole (41:56) there's still some timeline where I'm just like living in a van out in Arizona. So Shivani (42:01) my god, I feel that. There's a there's a version of the world where I'm like an Alaskan housewife like Nicole (42:06) Yeah. There you go. There you go. Shivani (42:10) Ha ha ha Nicole (42:11) Well. there are verb definitions in eighteen twenty eight, but Shivani (42:16) Okay. Nicole (42:17) it's they're not that we can kind of move through it quickly, I think. The the one thing I will say well, let me read this one. It's to strike or dash against, to meet and Shivani (42:25) Yeah. yeah. Nicole (42:27) oppose as bodies driven by violence, as conflicting waves or elements. Shivani (42:33) Mm. Nicole (42:34) So and there's also later to contend with violence as conflicting armies. Men conflicting with difficulties to resist and overcome. Shivani (42:43) Well Nicole (42:44) yeah. there's also this one's interesting to be in opposition or contradictory and the example sentence is the laws of the United States and of the individual states may in some Shivani (42:54) Mm. Nicole (42:54) cases conflict with each other. Shivani (42:56) Fascinating. Still know sometimes. Mm-hmm. Nicole (43:01) Yep, yep. Yep. Shivani (43:03) Fascinating. Nicole (43:05) I know. So lots of violence again. yeah. Yeah. More in the verb. Shivani (43:07) Yeah, it is. It really is. I'm I'm interested in like the the both the puritanical sort of nature of that, but also the kind of patriarchal definitions of that too. Like I think there's there's a lot of destructive conflict in this. There's a lot of like violent conflict in this, and I am very interested in Mm. I think that I think those are useful definitions and I think what I what I want a lot of my work to do is like sort of expand those definitions into like equal weight almost for generative conflict and for the kind of conflict that like makes something happen, as opposed to like all of my like body reaction to all of these like violent words is sort of like this is all very destructive conflict and it doesn't have to be that way. It just doesn't Nicole (44:00) Yeah. Shivani (44:01) have to be that way. Yeah. Nicole (44:03) I do like the elemental parts of it. Like, Shivani (44:04) Yeah. Nicole (44:06) like it says as bodies driven by violence, but then it says as conflicting waves or elements. And to me, that's kind of cool. Like, I don't think the definition, Shivani (44:11) I like that. Yeah. Nicole (44:14) I think it's hinting at something that's cooler than the definition itself is. Like there's a there's Shivani (44:18) Yes. Nicole (44:19) an underlayer, which we'll keep going back in time in a minute, but like the Shivani (44:21) Yeah. Nicole (44:22) and and like that constructive or Generative conflict that Shivani (44:26) Mm-hmm. Nicole (44:26) you're talking about like makes me think a lot of nature, right? Like you kind of need Shivani (44:29) Completely. Nicole (44:30) all of this like conflict in order to create something new, right? Like a seed needs to break open. yeah. So yeah. Shivani (44:34) Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel the same way. I feel the same way. Yeah, it's the like the striking or dashing against each other in that like violent collision, but then like waves crashing together as something that's in conflict is so interesting to me. I like I spend a lot of time by the I'm coastal Massachusetts, so I'm like thinking about tidal waves quite a bit and like Nicole (44:55) Yeah. Shivani (44:56) how beautiful and gentle that could be and how much of like a shaping the environment that can be. Nicole (45:01) Yeah. Shivani (45:01) there's like a lot of sand dunes that get shaped by that and like that's anyway, that's like a really beautiful Nicole (45:06) Yeah. Shivani (45:06) space for it, yeah. Nicole (45:07) Yeah, I mean our geography, if we look at like the millions hundreds of millions of years timeline, it's like so much conflict. Shivani (45:10) Yeah. Completely. So much, so much. Yeah. Right. Which Nicole (45:17) It's like land breaking apart. Shivani (45:21) is both actually can be both quite violent and also very like constructive. Right, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Nicole (45:27) Yeah, it depends on what time frame you're looking at, I suppose. Yeah. all right. It's time for etymology. I'm so excited. Okay, hold on, I gotta pull up a different document. okay, so we're gonna It's so fun. I've like started listening to audiobooks too of etymology as I walk. If Shivani (45:42) I love how much research y'all do in this also. It's by the way, it's brilliant. It's so cool. That's amazing. Nicole (45:52) they don't always apply necessarily to what we're about to do, but it's like gives you ideas. Shivani (45:56) Yeah. Nicole (45:58) so first, actually, before I'm gonna get like way back to the etymology, we're just gonna look at some milestones for the word conflict over time. Shivani (46:02) Okay. Yeah. Nicole (46:05) so in 1875, the sense of opposed principles, so ideas Shivani (46:09) Mm. Nicole (46:10) colliding, that's when that idea came about, the word conflict. Shivani (46:12) Okay. Nicole (46:15) 1859 is when we get the psychological sense, so the incompatible Shivani (46:19) Whoa. Nicole (46:20) urges in one person. So we get Conflicted. It did already mean like the internal spiritual struggle, like we saw in 1828. But that like it yeah, the psychological sense comes in 1859. Shivani (46:33) Okay. Nicole (46:34) so and there's a note here that psychology didn't invent inner conflict, it just took it out of the church. Yes. Yeah. In the 1640s, the verb picked up to be contrary or at variance. So it becomes Shivani (46:49) Okay. Nicole (46:50) something about like ideas and statements, not just armies. And Shivani (46:54) Mm. Nicole (46:56) in the early 1400s, that's when it enters English, meaning armed encounter or battle. And it came from the old French conflit and straight from Latin conflictus, which is a striking together. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, that's the original. So that's the we've gotten back to the Latin root. Conflictus came cut from, I hope I can say this one. Conflictus came from confligera, to strike Shivani (47:23) Okay. Nicole (47:24) together, or built from two pieces. Yeah. Shivani (47:30) Whoa Nicole (47:32) Yes. Because it's from, if you break it apart, we've got con, right? Like the con, come, like that's with together Shivani (47:36) Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (47:38) pretty much always. And then fligera is to strike. So it's to strike together or two Shivani (47:44) Okay. Nicole (47:45) pieces come together. Shivani (47:47) That is fascinating. Nicole (47:50) Mm, mm, yes. Yeah, because con means with. So before it was a war, Shivani (47:55) Yeah. Nicole (47:55) it was a collision. Shivani (47:58) Wow. Nicole (47:59) Yeah. I feel like that supports your like generative Yeah. Shivani (48:02) It totally does. Nicole (48:05) I mean obviously stating the Shivani (48:07) No, but I like it's so I ta I was I was like listening to the 1400s version of like definition of that of violent and striking together and I was like, okay, yeah, I guess more violence or whatever. And then to have this like Latin root that is actually so generative. Also, I keep thinking about like atomic collision and all of this. I think something with particles, Nicole (48:26) Yes. Shivani (48:27) I'm like like, you know, dis I feels like discovering new elements or something like that, you know? that's just so interesting. Nicole (48:32) Yeah. Does it atomic collision does that usually create something else, right? Or is it I'm not very sciencey. Shivani (48:38) I think s I don't know enough about this anymore. I used to be and I used to know this and now it's like really gone. I what I what I'm a sort of str what I the imagery that I have in my head is both this like I have like okay, I have like two different images in my head. One is the more like alchemical sort of version, which is literally like a transmutation of one element into another via collision of particles. Nicole (49:00) Mm-hmm. Shivani (49:01) and then I also have this like atomic bomb sort of version, which I actually think is j if I'm remembering correctly, is just like harnessed energy of elements changing, but they're just unstable elements. Somebody sciencey should like correct us on this, but Nicole (49:11) Yeah. I know. I should call my sister. Maybe I'll like call my sister and add a little segment. Shivani (49:16) Great. I I also feel like I used to know that and now I'm like doubting myself in it. But yeah, that's so that's so interesting. Nicole (49:25) Yeah, I love it. And also, fun fact, so in old English it was com with a K and it meant Shivani (49:32) Okay. Nicole (49:33) enough. Shivani (49:36) Wait, can you say that again? Kay yeah. Yeah. Okay. Nicole (49:36) Just the beginning of that word. So in Old English, it's the it's K-O-M instead of the C-O-M, which is with together in Latin, and it's enough. Shivani (49:45) Interesting. Nicole (49:46) Mm. Which is another word we're gonna do this season. But my brain's not totally cr yeah, yeah. It's a hard one. Mm-hmm. Shivani (49:52) Enough. That's a good word. That's a really good word too. Yeah. Yeah, that is a hard one. Nicole (50:00) Yeah. Shivani (50:02) Okay. Yeah. Nicole (50:03) cool. Any other thoughts on that route? Shivani (50:05) Wow, so many, but I don't know where to start. Nicole (50:08) Ha ha. Shivani (50:10) Like I feel like I have so many that I'm gonna need to like sit with it for three to five business days and then come back and like write Nicole (50:15) Yeah. Shivani (50:15) seventeen essays about it. You know what mean? Like Nicole (50:18) That's great. Yes. We'll put links in the show notes. We've got more than three days before this comes out, so Shivani (50:26) my gosh. yeah, I'm I'm I think the the like overarching thread like this timeline also of like getting less and less literal over time almost, or both more and less literal over time, but like of the fourteen hundred version fourteen hundred's version of like armies or people striking together, the 1640s Nicole (50:50) Hm. Shivani (50:51) of like ideas becoming contrary. And then the 1815 or like I guess 1820s spirituality sort of version of it and the church kind of version of it. And then the 1850s of like psychology and inner conflict. It and then 1875 with ideas. Like it feels like it's getting less and less literal every single time. Like we there's so Nicole (51:08) Yes. Shivani (51:09) many different layers at which or or planes at which almost we can have different kinds of conflict and it is both internal and external. and like literal and metaphysical and also metaphorical, like that's really fascinating to me. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (51:23) Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I love that. Well, I mean, that's part of why this whole ex like just process is so fun, because you can see all Shivani (51:33) Yeah. Nicole (51:34) the ways that we like that humans like took the meaning, right? Like they took the meaning of war Shivani (51:38) Yeah. Nicole (51:38) and were like, gosh, whatever's happening inside me feels a lot like war. And then like start applying the words. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Super fun. Shivani (51:42) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Nicole (51:48) let's look at some like cousin words. Shivani (51:50) Okay. Yeah. Nicole (51:50) Cousin words of the roots. So we do have these two parts of it, right? The cum, which is with together, which has a ton of cousin words. Like we could go all over the place with that. Shivani (51:55) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Nicole (51:59) and then to strike. Shivani (52:01) Yeah. Nicole (52:03) well, let me look at the pronunciation writing of that before I try to say it again. Filgera, filgera, which is to strike. Shivani (52:09) Okay. Nicole (52:09) Fligera. so just some examples that share the that cum root is country encounter. Shivani (52:16) Mm hmm. interesting, yeah. Nicole (52:21) Contrary coincidence Shivani (52:21) Mm hmm. Hmm. Nicole (52:25) collaboration accomplish Yeah Yeah Yeah yes Yes Shivani (52:28) Wow, this is incredible in the context of conflict. my gosh. All potential outcomes of conflict a lot of the time. Or inputs into. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (52:38) Right? Yeah, yeah. I mean accomplish is like, you know, we we we have conflict and we want to Shivani (52:44) yeah. Nicole (52:44) accomplish getting to the other side of the conflict. Shivani (52:47) Yeah. Nicole (52:48) and then if we look at the the other part of it, the affligera to strike, Shivani (52:52) Mm. Nicole (52:53) some cousin words that share that root are afflict, Shivani (52:57) Mm. Yeah. Nicole (52:59) inflict, profiligate. So afflict, we've got the add, so add plus strike. So you strike Shivani (53:07) Okay. Nicole (53:08) towards you. Something happens to you. So it's a strike towards you. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Shivani (53:10) Got it. Got it. You were you're right, you're like struck by illness. That's like yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicole (53:16) Inflict, you strike into someone else. You have the in, yeah. Yeah, Shivani (53:18) Mm, sure, yeah. Inflicting pain on somebody, yeah, yeah. Nicole (53:22) yeah. prof profligate, which I didn't know that word. Profligate. But pro plus strike. So it's struck down or ruined. So that's where that. Shivani (53:32) Interest that's another one where I'm like, I feel like I have read that and seen it in a sentence and could probably put it in a sentence, but don't know that I actually have a good definition off top of my head. Nicole (53:42) Yeah. Yeah. I d I don't even know if I could put in a sentence. So that's great. and then so conflict again, so it's strike together. So we've got like, you strike towards you, Shivani (53:49) Strike together. Nicole (53:50) strike into someone else to strike together. So conflict is really the word where the striking is kind of mutual. It's two things afflicting on each other. Like affliction is, yeah. Shivani (54:01) Well, and it's interesting too that it's like there's a the the word together in that is very interesting to me, right? Like it's it's Nicole (54:08) Mm. Shivani (54:09) it feels very different than a lot of the collision or striking at almost language that I feel like a lot of these previous definitions had or a lot of the definitions we've talked about have had. Whereas like to strike together feels much more like grounded in mutuality. Yeah, it does. It totally Nicole (54:24) Right? I know, like it feels almost nice. It feels collaborative. Shivani (54:28) does. It totally does. And also I d I I was like taking notes and r I wrote down afflict, inflict and con conflict all together and I don't know that I would have ever totally mapped those as part of the same family like family of words almost, even though they like are they looks exactly the same. Like, of course those go Nicole (54:45) Obvio yeah. Yeah. You look at it and you're like, yeah, I see that. Shivani (54:49) together. I would never have guessed that they go together, but of course they go together. Yeah. Nicole (54:53) Yeah. and then one more route we can look at the Proto-Indo-European route, which Shivani (54:56) Yeah. Mm. Nicole (54:59) is blig. Which is interesting Shivani (55:01) Okay. Nicole (55:02) how that becomes flicked, but which is also to strike, so it's not different. But Shivani (55:05) Okay. Nicole (55:05) we have some other descendants that are fun to look at. we have Greek flebain, which is to press to press or crush. Shivani (55:14) Interesting. Nicole (55:15) we have the Czech blizna, which is to scar, Shivani (55:18) Okay. Nicole (55:19) and Welsh. Believe, which is catapult. So those are other words that come from the root. Yeah. Shivani (55:24) Huh. This is so fascinating. So fascinating. I the scar one is really interesting to me Nicole (55:29) Huh. Mm. Shivani (55:31) around inflict and afflict and conflict also and like the at war with ourselves and each other sort of energy of it too. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (55:41) Yeah, right. I mean, and scars aren't always bad, I guess. Like a scar, it's just like evidence that something happened. Okay. Shivani (55:46) Mm, mhm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Nicole (55:56) love, we're gonna move on to quotes, if that's okay with you. Yeah. Shivani (55:58) Okay. Yeah, that's beautiful. Nicole (56:00) So I have a few quotes that use the word conflict, and we'll just read Shivani (56:03) Yeah. Nicole (56:04) them and we'll we'll chat about them and see how we feel. the first one is from Margaret Heffernan. Shivani (56:11) Okay. Nicole (56:11) Who is sorry, hold on. an entrepreneur, former CEO, author, speaker, and she Shivani (56:23) Mm. Nicole (56:23) says for good ideas and true innovation, you need human interaction, conflict, argument, debate. Shivani (56:31) I agree with that. I so agree with that. Yeah, that's the other reason I'm like I wouldn't trust a group of people who don't conflict with each other. because I I think like yeah, all all a lot of good ideas, a lot of innovation comes from like you I mmm part of what I am designing for in a lot of my change work is like how do we put things in tension with each other so that we can f design our way through it or figure out something new and interesting through that tension. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (57:02) Hmm. Ooh, I like the word design there. Yeah. Shivani (57:08) Yeah. Nicole (57:12) okay, we're gonna look at three more. Okay. Shivani (57:15) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Nicole (57:18) this is from William Ellery Channing. He was the foremost Unitarian preacher in the United States in the early 19th century. So yeah. Shivani (57:24) Okay. Stunning. Nicole (57:28) Difficulties are meant to rouse, not discourage. The human spirit is to grow strong by conflict. Shivani (57:38) Interesting. I like I like the word rouse in that. That's that's Nicole (57:42) Mm. Shivani (57:43) very interesting. And it also sort of puts me in mind of like again this difference between generative and destructive conflict. Like I won't go too far into this, but there's this like whole kind of thinking around post-traumatic stress versus pr not versus, but alongside post-traumatic growth and like how different people respond to different kinds of trauma. And not to put a value judgment on any of that at all, but but just in this like what happens when we experience some kind of grief or pain. do we like take that and learn from that? Do we take that and internalize that? Do we take that and shut down from that? Like there's so many different ways that we can we can respond, Nicole (58:23) Mm. Shivani (58:24) but I really like the word rouse in that. Nicole (58:26) Yeah, yeah. And that makes me think too of like responding to an inflicted conflict, perhaps, right? Like rousing against something Shivani (58:37) Mm, mm, yeah, yeah. Nicole (58:40) that is unjust. Yeah. Shivani (58:42) Yeah, completely. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (58:45) okay. So one thing we're doing new this season, because all of the words are kind of difficult, Shivani (58:50) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole (58:53) and we're trying to like Right ourselves with them. Shivani (58:57) Yeah. Nicole (59:00) is that we have some quotes that we probably don't agree with. So okay, great. We'll have conflict in our quotes. Shivani (59:05) Great, I'm here for it. Yes. We'll have conflict in our quotes, Nicole. I'm so down. Nicole (59:14) Yes. okay, so we have some like conflicting quotes. Yeah. Shivani (59:18) Okay. Nicole (59:18) the first one is from this might be the only one we do from this category, but the first one is Marcello Mastro Mastroianni. He was an Italian Shivani (59:26) Okay. Nicole (59:26) actor. and he said woman is also the element of conflict. Shivani (59:34) Okay. Nicole (59:39) Yeah, thoughts, Shivani. Shivani (59:40) did he say anything more about that? Nicole (59:42) Not not in this quote. I don't have any more. I don't I don't know if he went on to expand. huh. Yep. Shivani (59:51) yeah, I don't have anything else to say aside from laughing at that. Nicole (59:57) I mean that's the Shivani (59:57) what is the Nicole (59:58) that's the like Genesis story, I suppose, or the Genesis interpretation, Shivani (1:00:02) Yeah. Nicole (1:00:03) right? Is that Eve caused Shivani (1:00:05) Totally. Nicole (1:00:05) all conflict. Shivani (1:00:06) I totally. Yeah. I had two things pop into my head with that. One was, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them. And I'm like, I yes, I am laughing at you, sir. Nicole (1:00:20) Yes. my gosh, that's a good quote. Shivani (1:00:23) and the other the other story that came into mind is I've been listening to Braiding Sweetgrass, the audiobook version of Braiding Sweetgrass, Nicole (1:00:30) Yes. Shivani (1:00:32) which is read by the author and like absolutely phenomenal. But she talks about the story of Eve as a in relationship to the story of Skywoman and how the story of Skywoman is this like very generative, very beautiful, like she falls from the sky, but then is like gifted so much and also brings so much as a gift, whereas Eve like falls from the sky and is punished for it. And Nicole (1:00:55) Yeah. Shivani (1:00:56) just like how those origin stories, not to go back to story, but the origin stories then shape so much of how we think of things. they're like both Nicole (1:01:05) Yeah. Shivani (1:01:05) stories of displacement but also story and stories of gender, but such different takeaways and such just different story arcs that both women are go on or as are seen as. Nicole (1:01:23) Yeah. I've often thought about this with well we took a long road trip recently and Shivani (1:01:28) Yeah. Nicole (1:01:29) we were listening to Stephen Fry's Mythos. He just like read retells retells all the Greek stories. Shivani (1:01:32) Mm, I haven't I know, I haven't read it. cool. Nicole (1:01:36) Yeah. and the Prometheus story is on there, of course. And he like as I he's punished, right? So Shivani (1:01:39) Okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole (1:01:43) I think most people are familiar, but he like steals fire from the gods to give to to humans because Shivani (1:01:48) Mm-hmm. Nicole (1:01:48) or man, I don't think there were any women at that time in the Greeks version of this. She's created later. Shivani (1:01:51) Ha ha Nicole (1:01:54) so he like gives fire to man because he's like, they're suffering, they need fire. and he gets punished by Zeus by the the vulture eats his liver every day. and while he's punished, he's also kind of celebrated, but he kind of did the same thing Eve did, which is be like, I'm taking knowledge and like learning to build Shivani (1:02:06) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nicole (1:02:12) fire. So yeah. It's the stories we tell. Shivani (1:02:14) Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (1:02:19) okay, one more that again might be a bit like controversial, but it's Shivani (1:02:21) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole (1:02:23) this is Paul Rust, who's a current American actor, comedian, and Shivani (1:02:27) Okay. Nicole (1:02:27) writer, and he said conflict comes from a person's own actions, not what someone else does to them. Shivani (1:02:34) interesting. I would not put those as a binary. I think they can be both and Yeah, I think it's I think it is often actually both and it is both a person's actions, but also someone else's actions towards us. it's I that may that puts me in mind of like this this idea of like you can't make me feel anything, right? Like feeling is feelings are like emotional states are an internal thing, and that is both true and not true in some ways, of like, yes, you d you didn't like force this emotion upon me and that like you cannot generate an emotional state, and also it is true that like someone else's behavior Behavior ha has a ripple effect and your behavior actually does have impacts on the people around you and that will and can and often does incite emotional reactions and those are correct. That's the Nicole (1:03:23) Yeah. Shivani (1:03:24) thing that happens. And th I think it's yeah, anyway. So I I d I don't like that as a binary, but I I do think that it's a both and yeah. Nicole (1:03:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I do feel like that's something my dad would say. That quote he'd be like, You're fine, it's all in your head. Shivani (1:03:41) Well and that okay, yeah, that also sorry, that like it's all in your head. I th I think about that a lot too because I I we I was just reading about this recently. We have such a we have such a separation between our like mental state from our body, and I'm like, your brain is part of your body actually. Like it's all yes, it's just because it's Nicole (1:03:55) Yeah. Yeah. Shivani (1:03:56) all in your head doesn't mean it's not real. It's still happening. There's still like some biological process that is real, actually. Nicole (1:04:03) Yeah. my gosh, I'm gonna say that next time as a response. Like, yes, it is. And okay, we're gonna start to wrap Shivani (1:04:15) Yeah. Okay. Nicole (1:04:17) a few questions. So we're calling this this season, which I should have said at the beginning, but we're calling it like the bitter words season. You're like, they're bitter, Shivani (1:04:25) Mm. Nicole (1:04:25) they've got a bitter taste to them. And so yeah, Shivani (1:04:27) That's beautiful. Nicole (1:04:29) it took us a while to actually think of like like we do we call them hard words, difficult words, right? Like what is the right Shivani (1:04:35) I love that Nicole (1:04:36) What is the right word? Bitter. Yeah. They got a bitter taste. After this conversation, do you feel Shivani (1:04:36) actually. Ugh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole (1:04:42) like the word conflict is still bitter or have we made it a bit better? Shivani (1:04:46) Okay, well I love the phrase bitter words because I wrote this piece about bitterness way back when. Nicole (1:04:52) Ooh yes. Shivani (1:04:55) and specifically about how like bitter as it tastes is actually like really medicinal and like does a lot of work in like digestive processes and is like very required in in like taste and herbal medicine and things like that for us to like It like sparks di like the early digestive processes. It's like why there's why you k why people we put bitters in tea or in like drinks sometimes. or like bitter herbs. Like there's so much in that. It's also like why a lot of the or not why, but a lot of the early spring vegetables that start to come up, greenery that starts to come up are a lot of like bitter greens. and those are like, you know, they're like they're not sweet yet 'cause that's the season of summer. Nicole (1:05:36) Yeah. Shivani (1:05:38) so I think it is a bitter word, but I mean that in the context of like medicinal. and so to me it's it was I so this piece that I wrote sort of like in defense of bitterness in some ways. Of like and this w this was a few years Nicole (1:05:55) When was this when did this come out? I feel like we should link to it. Shivani (1:05:58) ago. This was yeah, I'm happy to I can share the link. It was End of twenty two, I think I wrote it. Maybe end of twenty three, something like that. but I but I I was I was and still do think about this in the context of like the bitter woman or this like archetype of a bitter woman Nicole (1:06:13) Mm. Shivani (1:06:14) and how that's like so much about like being a woman scorned or like being an angry woman or things like that too, and I was in a season of being called an angry or bitter woman a lot at the time and I had Nicole (1:06:23) yeah. Shivani (1:06:23) to sort of like reclaim it, but yeah, I I I think conflict is also one of those words that can't certainly can be bitter and can be bitter in that really negative way too. Like I I'm not to say that like all bitterness is great and fabulous all the time, but I just think it's in the same way that bitterness is very nuanced. I also think conflict is really nuanced and like I don't really like demonizing much of anything, actually. So I'm like all of these things have their place. Yeah. Nicole (1:06:54) Well, and in the etymology we get that also build of two different things. So it's got it's got some good roots. Shivani (1:06:58) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole (1:07:03) has your relationship with the word changed over the course of our conversation? Shivani (1:07:07) my god, I am obsessed with all these definitions. I'm gonna be going into this so much. I think the yeah, I think the like thinking about it as at these different planes or different levels across a literal collision to an ideological or just internal state sort of collision is something I've thought about a lot but never quite articulated it in that way. So I I really like that. the etymology certainly is endlessly Nicole (1:07:33) Yeah. Shivani (1:07:34) fascinating to me. and I also think this like afflict, inflict and conflict trio is one I'm gonna be thinking about a lot. I I actually I use a lot of like diagnostic or body or medical language around conflict too. Like I I treat it as like we're triaging conflict. We're like that when you have an active thing, we like take it to the ER. I like I'm working on this phrase right now but like conflict is diagnosis and change is prognosis. And so I'm like I really love Nicole (1:08:00) Mm. Shivani (1:08:01) these sort of like medical terminology almost or very body based terminology for or like just language for for some of these words too. It's it's fascinating to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Nicole (1:08:10) Yeah. Or elemental based. Yeah. I love that. Shivani (1:08:14) Yeah. Nicole (1:08:15) I feel like this is gonna be a hard question, the next one. But if listeners were to leave, well it's just it's such a vast word, right? Shivani (1:08:18) Okay. Yeah. Nicole (1:08:24) if listeners were to leave with your definition or one thing you want Shivani (1:08:26) Mm. Nicole (1:08:27) them to kind of take away, what would that be? Shivani (1:08:32) yeah, you're right. So many things to take away. I think the the biggest thing that I most kind of want to offer to people around conflict is that, I think we have this this story, this idea that conflict is something you're either good at or bad at. And I really want us to think about it as like a practice or a skill set or an opportunity almost. Like I think it yeah, it can be destructive. It can be really violent. It can be this like total just everything falling apart. But it doesn't have to be. and I think the only way that we start to shift that is if we like actually pretty intentionally practice like what is the collision in this like particle or wave sort of nature and how do we show up as the wave a little bit more often instead of the like the violent man. Nicole (1:09:20) Yes. Shivani (1:09:22) Ha ha Nicole (1:09:23) conflict doesn't have to be death. Yeah. Shivani (1:09:25) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nicole (1:09:28) amazing. This is such a good conversation. I I like Shivani (1:09:31) Yeah. Nicole (1:09:32) I love this. I love the word conflict now. I'm like totally in such a good word. Shivani (1:09:34) Me too. Nicole (1:09:38) I feel like great friends with it. where can listeners go to learn more about you, your work, your spaces Shivani (1:09:43) Yeah. Nicole (1:09:45) on the internet? Shivani (1:09:45) Totally. the best place is my website, which is everything is there. It is www. shavani.co. It's S H I V A N I dot C O. and the really truly best place is to sign up for Intimate Practice the Newsletter, which comes out most Sundays, although I've been very delinquent lately. So we're just gonna, you know, gloss right over that. But yeah, Intimate Practice the Newsletter is a lot about like care work and these practices and these like explorations. and that's also like the link is Yeah. Nicole (1:10:17) Amazing. Yeah, and we will put that in the show notes for anyone looking for the link. Shivani (1:10:21) Thank you. Nicole (1:10:23) All right. Thank you so much, Giovanni. This is so great. We'll have to do it sooner than two years next time. Shivani (1:10:25) Thank you. I can't wait. This is glorious. I Nicole, I truly like I love how much research y'all do for this. Like it's it's so brilliant and it's so rich and I really will be thinking about this for several days to come. So yeah, thank you so much. Nicole (1:10:40) Thank you. That means a lot. Okay, bye everybody.