Latest / Beyond the Needle: The Aesthetics Business Podcast / How to Become a More Confident Leader with Marcus Haycock

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How to Become a More Confident Leader with Marcus Haycock · Beyond the Needle: The Aesthetics Business Podcast

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Beyond the Needle, the Aesthetics Business Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Each week I'm here to share real actionable strategies and bring on expert guests to help you level up, attract more patients, and build a stand-up brand.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's turn your passion into a thriving business together.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Real quick before we get started, now I know this from experience both as a business owner and as a former clinic manager.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: The operations side never gets easier as a clinic grows.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Staff schedules, payments, marketing, all of it pulling attention away from the treatment room.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is unless you have Gloss Genius, the intelligent system that does all of that work for you, so you can focus on the work you love and watch your revenue grow.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Gloss Genius is sponsoring this episode and is giving you an exclusive code.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Enter code Needle at glossgenius.com for 50% of your first two months of their MedSpa and aesthetic plans available to US businesses only.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's get into the episode.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Beyond the Needle podcast.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So today's episode is one I'm so excited to share with you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is the first in a three-part series with my guest, Marcus Haycock, who I met about 10 years ago now, in my first ever role in an aesthetics clinic, when I kind of came in and I got thrown into the deep end and ended up managing a team and running a clinic at a very young age, quite inexperienced.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: He was, you know, a bit of a saving grace for me.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot from him and he's been a great contact to have over the last 10 years.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's got so much knowledge to share.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: So each episode in the series is going to be released bi-weekly over the next few weeks.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Marcus is a transformational leadership consultant who has spent over 25 years working in and around the aesthetics industry, including 23 years at a global pharmaceutical company.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: He now works with clinic owners and practitioners on the leadership side of running a business, which is kind of the bit that nobody really prepares you for.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly what this episode is about because so many people in this industry end up in a leadership position, not because they have a plan for it, but because they were really good at something else.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're a brilliant practitioner or like me, you were good at the operational side.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point that translated into managing a team, running a clinic, being responsible for people, and no one really prepares you for that ever.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Marcus has a name for it, he calls it the accidental leader.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So in this episode, we dive into the four key pillars of leadership, why imposter syndrome runs so deep in this industry specifically, and how the way you talk to yourself, you know, your internal dialogue might be the one thing that's holding your business back more than anything else.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really honest conversation, and I think a lot of you are going to see yourselves in parts of it and really resonate with some of the things that Marcus says.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully, as always, you take a lot away from it and you find it super, super helpful.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, as always, if you do enjoy these episodes, if you find this podcast useful, please don't forget to subscribe so you're notified when new episodes go live and do leave me a little review as well.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I really do appreciate it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now grab a pad and pen and let's dive in.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Marcus, and thank you so much for joining me this morning.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's so lovely to have you on the podcast.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to be here.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's my first live podcast in the studio, which is amazing.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for being my first in-person guest.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels like you're the perfect person because I've known you probably about 10 years now, maybe just over 10 years, since my I first started my very first job in the aesthetic space.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it feels like a bit of a full circle moment.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm really excited to have you on today because you have so much experience, so much wisdom, and so much, you know, great advice that I'd love for you to share with my audience about leadership, about management, about building a great team culture, all of those types of things.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your background and where you where you first started.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I I really started my career in healthcare pharmaceuticals.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was around about 30 years ago.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I started off in a kind of business development role, and then I had a fantastic opportunity in 2008 to become a business consultant to one of the major pharmaceutical companies.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't sell product, but I went into practices to help them with their business, to do workshop, to do coaching, to really make medics better business people.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that job, and I did that successfully for 12, 13 years.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then, like any kind of strategy in any company, when you get traction, we felt like uh customers really appreciated that.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: They got really good bespoke advice unique to this industry, and right across the world they said, right, we want to extend this.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And in the UK, that meant going from a three-person team where I was reporting to one person to naturally expanding the team.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I had that lovely tap on the shoulder from management, and they said, Marcus, we would like you now to lead a team.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're very experienced, you've done the job for so long, you're the most natural person that should be leading the team.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, when I first got that tap on the shoulder, as most people would kind of feel, it was a huge boost.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: I felt really privileged that you know management had recognized me.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: But 60 days later, my feelings had changed quite considerably because I would say I'm one of the 82% of managers in the world today, particularly in Britain, who was an accidental manager.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I moved into management on the basis that I was good at the day job, I was a good producer, and the skills what made me really good at my job I found very quickly didn't always necessarily translate into leading a team really well.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I I suppose my message for all listeners at the moment is that the fact that when I reached out and I was humble enough to say, look, I need more coaching and training, that's when things turned around for me.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't happen overnight, and what I was able to do was to spend probably six, nine, twelve months focusing on structured leadership training, coaching, applying the kind of advice which I got from my coach on the job.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And within 18 months, I went from, I would say almost a failing manager to building a team which was internationally recognised as one of the best teams in the whole of Europe for business consulting.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that was purely because I'd learnt the skills of leadership.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of my background and why I really do what I'm doing today, which is focusing on leadership development and coaching others.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and your pathway gradually took you to the aesthetics space and where you worked with a lot of aesthetic clinics and helping them develop their teams as well.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct, yeah.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I would go in various different projects, we'd focus on the operations, but also quite a few of those projects were around team empowerment, helping managers become better at their job, not just getting the results, but creating the kind of culture where you know people thrived.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd use all sorts of tools with that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm also an insights accredited practitioner.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So Discovery Insights is a company which specializes in communication preferences, and what you usually find is that when you go into any practice, different people have different ways of communicating.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what Insights teaches us is to raise our self-awareness so we can develop profiles, it highlights our strengths, but also our blind spots of how we might show up under stress.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was Carl Jung who once said the secret to life is making the unconscious conscious.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when you develop that self-awareness, which is pivotal for leadership, that's when you can improve not how only how you come across, but how you lead others and create that kind of culture.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we we did that quite a lot, and I found it very inspiring.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: We do training days on that as well.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was hugely uh hugely rewarding.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Rewarding, yeah, absolutely, I can imagine.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to talk more about the insights profiling, which I think is fascinating in you know, further on in the series.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, like you said, it took you a really long time to become a good leader.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: You like I think you said 12 months of really developing yourself and doing lots of different things.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what what I'd say, Eberly, is that you don't suddenly leadership is always a learning every day, so you're continually improving on that.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a mistake to think, okay, well, I can be become a brilliant leader in 12 months, but yeah, became a more a better and a more competent leader here.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which I think is the missing piece for a lot of people because I think people are promoted to management positions and no one actually thinks about the whether they have the right skills to help them excel in that in that area.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're just kind of expected to have it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got some stats which you actually touched on one of them earlier about how 82% of CMI report found that 82% of UK managers are what they call accidental managers.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: They ended up in leadership roles without any training or preparation for them whatsoever.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And 82% of UK managers enter management without any formal leadership development programme compared to 44% globally.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the UK figure is almost double, you know, uh doubly worse than the than the global average.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think that is?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: I find that incredible.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't aware of those stats around the UK until you told me those this morning.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are a few things.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a way of thinking.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I do a lot of networking now, and I must hear this regularly when I talk about leadership with a lot of owners who say basically you've either got leadership abilities or you haven't.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're born a leader or you're not.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: We know with my work I do at LMI that that is not the case.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: That if people have the capability but also the desire, it doesn't matter what personality profile you are, you can become a great leader.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, in our view, really great leaders are are made, they're not born.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that constrains people to invest.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other worry might be I had somebody said, Well, Marcus, times are tough at the moment.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why should I invest in staff and make them even more employable?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because then they're gonna leave and I'm gonna lose more ROI.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And my response to that seems crazy when they tell me that is well, what happens if they stay?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's an element of, well, they're gonna move, will I get the ROI?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's these limiting patterns which maybe stop people in Britain investing, but what we do know is then when you invest and you develop leadership skills in all employees, transformational change can happen in your company, but it has to start sometimes at the top as well.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting stats.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Really interesting, and I think you're right, because I think these days people don't tend to stay in job roles as as long as they did well 20, 30 years ago.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: People could go into a company from 20 years old and stay there until they retired, but that doesn't really happen.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: People float around a lot more these days, which might be why people are adverse to investing a lot of money into their staff.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: But like you say, what happens if you invest?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: What happens if you put that money in and make that person a great team leader?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: What could that do for your company in the long run?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and another way of thinking about it is that a great aspirational sort of uh focus would be to make it so much so that employees could work out walk out the business tomorrow with a different job, but they don't want to because they're so connected with that culture, they feel inspired to come to work and be part of that team.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you can turn it the other way as well.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, and I think development is is a really important part of job satisfaction.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think if someone's developing you and investing in you and making you feel great, like you're capable of great things, why would you want to go somewhere else?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you're not being developed and you're being asked to do a job that you don't have the skills or qualifications to do, you probably are more likely to leave.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're just gonna have that vicious cycle of having to bring people in, retrain them up, get them, you know, used to the way you do things in the business, only for them probably to leave again because they're not being developed the way they need to be developed.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think you've you know you've hit the nail on the head, and that's what happens regularly.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you've probably seen that in medical aesthetics quite a lot.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that does that does happen.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I read another stat somewhere, I can't remember the source, but it was quite I think that there was the majority of people would stay at a company if they felt valued and they loved the culture more than a 10% pay rise, which was astounding.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I could remember the stats where that was.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I probably Gallup or you know, one of the big research houses, but yeah, so yeah, fascinating.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can see how that could be true.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I when I was working in employment, that was always the more important thing to me was to feel like I was valued and I was actually making a difference over the amount of money I was making.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think people do underestimate the power of that that it can have.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: What are the key qualities of a of a good leader?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think you know there's certain key characteristics.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing I think it's important to make a distinction, first of all, is that leadership and management should really be combined and be the same thing.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: But very often, when we look at leadership, leadership is about an attitude, it's about a way of thinking, it's about empowering others.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And good leaders generally are caring about other people as well.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Management on the on the whole can be about process, getting results, it doesn't have to be transactional, but you want to get a result, and sometimes you you say people or people are labelled a great leader when maybe some of their qualities are focusing more on the process and the management side.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So when I've done my work with LMI, and from what I've learned from my experience of being a leader from the coaching I got, there are certain attitudes traits which are essential for being a good leader.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think probably pivotably, the one thing what I really recognise with LMI is as a leader, have the mindset that the people you employ have, believe it or not, unlimited potential.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you take that mindset, your job as a leader is to make sure that you can pull out that potential, grow that person so they contribute to your business and that culture.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's the number one trait.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Assuming positive intent as well.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many of us are walked by maybe more critical thinking?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: We can be our harshest critic, and unfortunately, sometimes if we don't censor that, that can pull up with the way we we treat stuff.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's very important we give constructive feedback, but you know, sometimes that can be overplayed into personal criticism or judgment.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So again, you want people who are measured, calm in a crisis, people who just generally want to connect with others.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've done a lot of coaching for many years, and what I find one of the challenges are with the coaching models is they appear to be quite transactional to start with, but before you can coach somebody, you need to create an environment that that person feels like you've got their best interests at heart.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you need that personal connection.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen a lot of models with coaching where they don't really focus on that piece because we're so busy in business of getting things done, we forget about that human touch.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and the other thing, what I would say is that AI gets mentioned every single second of every day, and we are all knowing we're all kind of concerned about and also see the opportunities with AI.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But imagine a future where the next five or ten years AI is taking over the more analytical processing part of the workplace.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's the one thing which is really going to make you stand out as an employee employee?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's being more human.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Your ability to have advanced communication skills, to lead others, it's going to be more pivotable in the future than ever.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And when I've looked at surveys across 30 years, the number one thing which comes up most in corporation surveys is communication.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a regular thing, so you've got to be a good, confident communicator.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: But hopefully, in a preamble, these are some of the qualities which are needed in being a good leader, really.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I mean there's two types of people that could be listening to this: there's the clinic owner, and then there's the clinic manager.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: For a clinic owner, you know, a medical professional, they have probably come from you know an NHS background where they have worked for someone else and they've never had to lead to they possibly never had to lead a team.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: They might have been a manager within the NHS, so they've got some experience.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But for a lot of people, they they go from the NHS, they set up the clinic, then they gradually start employing people, and that's a new skill that they need they need to learn.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: What are the common mistakes that you see people make?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I think that's incredibly common in this industry.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the first I think people coming from the NHS have come from, let's face it, a really efficient system, which on the whole provides amazing health care on quite a quite a low value budget when we look at how much is spent on healthcare in this country to other countries, we do efficiently give out a really good service.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the one reason we're good at that is we have really strict protocols, it's very process-driven, and there's a clear hierarchy with within the leadership.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think some of the challenges you've got for medical aestheticians or you know, people who have come from the NHS, doctors, nurses, they're used to that clinical setting, that that key structure where most decisions go through the person above them, and there's that clear hierarchy.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: One of the problems you've got in a small practice and a small business is that if you are the root cause of every single or the root focus of every decision, it's almost like you paralyse the productivity of other staff.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I see most challenging for a lot of medical owners is right, I I employ a lot of staff, but they're not doing, they're not thinking for themselves, and it usually comes back to the self-awareness of the owner.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because you haven't employed the right people, although that can be the case, but most of the time it's you've created a culture where people become dependent on you for the answer.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're stepping in and you're giving the answer every time and you're not defining what decisions they're able to take by themselves, and you have a clear hierarchy on that, it becomes a nightmare for you as an owner, can be exhausting.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not coming back to that point, if your job as a leader is to really make sure that you untap people's potential when you're controlling every single decision, A, you're not ticking that box, and B, you're just making life incredibly hard for yourself.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: However, having said that, on the clinical side, there are certain decisions which perhaps must be passed through to you, but it's a question of getting balance.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: What can be delegated and what can be really, you know, really coming back to you to make that decision.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: How do people get that right from the start?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it happens probably because I think, especially for for clinic owners, you know, their clinic's their baby, it was them that set it up, it's been them from day one, they know what they do day to day, they know how they like things done.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then when you start bringing people into that, it can be quite difficult.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've experienced that myself, you know, of having my own business, it can be quite difficult to let go of some of those things and and give the trust to other people to do it properly.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, from from my point of view, what I found really quite how quite helpful is trying to get written processes in place.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what else would you say people can be doing?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you raise an excellent point.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: The first point you mentioned trust.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're going to create any team, the foundational pillar of any team is trust, and that is usually, you know, the leader has to believe and trust in the people.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you take yourself as an example for listeners to compare, you've built up a tremendous amount of experience over the years.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: You've got very high exacting standards, and this has made you really, really successful.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important for any business owner, and you went down that that route just then, having that ability to put your ideas onto paper and to create processes.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: What I've found is because people are so busy working in the business, not strategically on the business, they don't take time out to create the protocols, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because you're not then giving the tools for the staff to be able to think like you.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: When you do do that and you coach them and you have to show patience because people will make mistakes, what are you doing for that member of staff?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's come back to that point about untapped potential.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Your your job as a leader is to you know create that untapped potential in that employee, and you can only do that by sharing your experience, but doing it in a process way, and also coaching them as well.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not giving them the answer, but also asking them questions and helping them learn.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I've worked with many practice owners who would step in, would give their opinion, would give the answer, and then I think it that didn't always create trust because it can foster the kind of impression that oh well the owner doesn't believe in my ability, and that's one of the key foundational things in a team which is beginning to break down on that paper piece.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, in summary, I would say what goes on in your head needs to be extrapolated and put on paper and then coached to other people.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's definitely a mistake that I made is not having those written processes in place and those protocols before getting busy.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say to anybody, when you're starting to get busy and you know at some point you're probably gonna have to bring somebody on, whether that's a you know a VA or a PA or receptionist to help manage the admin side of things or a therapist maybe to start doing some of the skin stuff or a second injector, start right before you're too busy, start writing those things down, log them somewhere.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, with AI these days, as you know, you can get it to do it for you, just give it the key information that it needs to know.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that is a game changer if you can get that right.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to coaching, what would you say a good coaching program would look like from a clinic owner to an injector or to even to an admin?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, uh some of the programs we get involved.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, with my work I do at LMI, we we we focus around what we call the total leader, and leaners leaders are good coaches.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does coaching really mean?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: A simple version of or an explanation of coaching is really helping people learn.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not giving them the answers and it's asking really, really good questions and it's always checking in with them.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: So a good coaching program is first of all, I suppose equipping leaders on a structure of what coaching is following a model, you know.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: We use the simple coach model, which is uh five kind of core core steps, but the fundamental one about leadership is we place a really big focus on connection.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So when I've gone to work with owners in the past and they might have a team of six or eight people, I will always say to them, So, what's really important for this employee?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think they're motivated?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's quite staggering how many people don't know.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first point is when you've got ever any staff under your employment, you've got to take an interest in them, you've got to be curious.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: That shows care.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: They've got to know what your intent is.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: There was this famous quote from uh a US poet, I think it was, and it's it summarized it, she didn't exactly say this, but this was the inference that at the end of the day, people might forget what you say, but they never forget how you made them feel.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that I've heard that before.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so true.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like as a leader, your first point is that that that developing trust, you develop trust when people know that you've got your best interests at heart.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're just a means for them to maybe achieve your goals, they will serve you, but you tend to get compliance rather than empowerment.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: If, however, you're taking a big interest in them because you really want to develop them, you want to help them in their in their career, make them enjoy their job, have a team environment where people get on, you know, then if that's your intent every time, they're going to buy into you as a person, they're more likely to be receptive to your your leadership.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: So hope hopefully that helps.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: If someone is, say, having issues with an employee, maybe they're not responding to them the the way that they want them to, or they're making a lot of mistakes, or they're maybe not communicating things back to them, back to the clinic or whoever it is that they're reporting to properly.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: How can people deal with with that when the issues do arise?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's quite a broad question that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when you've got somebody who you think might be underperforming, it can be a variety of different factors.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a confidence thing.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're in the clinic and you're giving out all the answers and everything has to go through you, I've I've visited clinics where people have said at the end of the day, oh, people always join this practice super confident, and within six months everybody's a nervous wreck and their confidence has gone out the window.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's not because the owner wanted to create that environment.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: They are a bit of a perfectionist, their reputation means everything's to them, and they want every decision to go through them.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not creating trust.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the question, first of all, with anything like this as a leader is am I the problem?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how much self-awareness do I have?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the foundational pillars of leadership is personal awareness, self-leadership.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to lead yourself really well, first of all, before you can lead others.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do you react under stress?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you go off on one, you kind of lose your head, you you you get a bit shouty.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's not ideal in an environment like that.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: So are you aware of how you might react under stress?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Coming back to the underperforming employee, it could be that, you know, is it a training or a competence issue?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do they need more training?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Very often, sometimes it's clear expectations.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we know when we go into, I did so much work when I did my business consulting around job descriptions, goal setting.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's very uncommon in practices.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: People know roughly that they've got to do a certain amount of treatments, but sometimes it's not even written down how they should behave in a professional manner and what values the whole clinic wants to espouse as well.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a certain structured process for getting the best out of employees when it comes to that.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So is it really clear what's expected of them?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And as a leader, are you making it really clear?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And additionally, as well, this is my work with my insights as well.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you're curious about that other person, do you know what their communication preference is?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're this kind of dynamic individual who's quite straight talking, likes results, probably just focuses on just getting the results and getting stuff done.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you have your opposite type, so we would describe them having a lot of red, powerful energy.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Your opposite type might be somebody who is sort of uses a lot of green energy.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: They may be slightly more introverted, but before they're going to connect with somebody, they have to know that they feel safe and you care for them.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you're completely focusing on the results and you're not taking their opinions or asking their opinion, that can take friction and then they can automatically maybe just come across as though they're appeasing you, but you're not you're not gonna get the best of them.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: So as a leader, I know it sounds really tough this, but you've got to figure out who you're dealing with, how you might want to adjust your your style, dial down your red energy and up your green energy to connect better with them.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: I keep using that word all the time, connection.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Connection is key.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: How would you say people can connect with their employees better?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like what things can they do?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned communication earlier as well, like you have to be a really good communicator to be a good leader, and you have to be self-aware.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: How can people become more self-aware and improve those communication skills?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's such a good question.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So there's things you can do right now, and there's other tools or help you you can get as support.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: The question, if I ping it back to you, put you on the spot, Emily, how often in the week or in the day do you reflect on how you might have acted?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that space between a situation and your reaction, when it comes to your self-awareness, sometimes keeping a journal about things, noting down what you did really well.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you might have had a situation with a client which was particularly challenging, and on this occasion, you know, you handled it really well.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's equally important to write down the wins and to reflect on them because that reinforces what you can do really well next time.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you've had a really bad day, something exercises, uh, you know, goes out of the goes out of the blue and it doesn't work uh quite the way you wanted, using a journaling method, or you can think, right, okay, I want to reflect on that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to be self-critical.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just in the moment being curious.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't want to beat yourself up because we're all human at the end of the day.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: If we take one aspect of leadership is really just assuming that every day is a learning day, we're curious, and then we find out, okay, let's break this down.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: What happened on that occasion and why did I react the the the way I did?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you see a pattern of behaving behaviour happening with a certain personality type, you can recognise the source or the trigger, and then you can perhaps change your behaviour.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: So just that discipline of maybe five or ten minutes of working on yourself can really show up and have dividends, you know.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, I do you ever do that?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever done that?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: I well, I mean, I do think about how I react to things quite a lot.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I am probably quite self-aware, or maybe a bit too self-aware, and I probably overthink it a lot as well when I'm dealing with different people.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I always think after certain situations, could I have handled that better?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Did I handle that the best that I could have?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the best way to respond?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I can second guess myself quite a lot as well.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say I probably am generally quite quite self-aware.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think you I mean, thanks for sharing that.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think you raise the point that it is a question of balance.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be a bit careful because if you're a bit of a perfectionist, you might hire raise your standards so high that they're impossible to achieve, and therefore your inner critic starts taking over, which which then can hinder you.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's being compassionate to yourself.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you're just looking for trends, you're not looking for perfection.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and in business, the main thing really is 80% is always good enough.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you focus on 100%, you're going to neglect some other part of the business.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's keeping balance.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing though is it's almost full, I would say, pretty impossible to figure out sometimes how we truly come across without using tools like this.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Might be for another podcast, like Insights, where we complete a profile, a communication profile.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: So this doesn't measure intelligence, it doesn't in measure competence, it just measures humans, beings, way they want to communicate and what's driving that based on Cole Young's preferences.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the psychologist, psychiatrist who wrote all this stuff over a hundred years ago is still relevant today.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea is when you create a questionnaire, you can have an amazing report which will be so specific to you, and it will also highlight what your strengths are and what your what your blind spots are.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: You can read that report, and then if you have that ability to reflect, have a certain time in the day where you want to keep a journal, that becomes your tool for life to improve your communication skills.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Also, if you wanted to do this within a team environment, I've seen that when people share their profiles, if they have a situation where two members are not getting on, straight away it can diffuse the situation and people can laugh about any kind of previous conflict situation.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: All comes down, generally speaking, to preferences.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because in a team there's always going to be different personalities, and there's always going to be personalities that rub up against each other and butt heads occasionally.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about when you were managing team members, a lot of this conflict comes to judgment, okay?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you have somebody with strong red energy, okay, they want to get stuff done, they're results-driven, they've got a busy diary, they haven't got time for small talk, okay?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Then you might have a receptionist whose whole focus for their job is to make people feel cared for and happy.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: They meet first thing in the morning, one person goes into their kind of typical mode of want to get stuff done, the other person may then perceive that other person as oh, they're really rude.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's up with them?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: That person might be thinking I'm having a really efficient day, and then the person who may have felt really not acknowledged may then carry that judgment throughout the day over a period of time.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: If that's not acknowledged and they don't understand that's a communication profile, nobody's right or wrong.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: These things can build up because we're using our judgment.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the great thing about personality or the or communication profiling is it gets rid of judgment and it replaces it with curiosity.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And some neurologists have said you try and be angry if you're being curious, you can't be that.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when you have a more of a curious mindset about whatever happens to you, yeah, you remain calm.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're you're coming away from it being about you and you're taking yourself out of the equation and you're you're focusing on the other person.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they acting like that?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they doing that?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than thinking that person's got an issue with me.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: What is their issue?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it building up to and I I was laughing when you were saying that analogy because I have seen that exact situation play out in a clinic where you've got where you've got someone on the front of house and then clinic owner or you know, injected with someone who's very busy, has a lot, you know, busy diary, a lot going on, you know, can come in, ignore them, get you know, they're in their kind of work mindset, they haven't got time for small talk, and it can create friction in the within the team, and and then you get people kind of talking about it amongst each other, and it can really harm the overall team culture, I think.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it isn't it crazy that when people become aware that at the end of the day, 99% of the time, it's not about you, it's nothing personal, yeah, but we take it personally.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: We do, yeah.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, some people, psychologists would say this goes back to human beings being on this earth.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are 95% of people are perhaps more focused on fear because thousands of years ago being in a group kept us safe.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that mindset isn't applicable for the 21st century, but we've still got that going on in our brain right now, and the judgment piece comes in because we can't sit around and spend two hours analysing that person.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: We just have to make a quick decision.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if we go back to the caveman era, that quick decision would have kept us alive.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: My god, that thing's gonna eat me.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: I need to get out of here.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's you have to make a judgment call.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we're making judgment calls all the day all the time in situations with people.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Are are they feeling are they threatening me or are they accommodating me?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's absolutely fascinating.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing I do know with with sort of the insights is that when you bring this into the workplace, people can actually have a laugh about it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I had one plastic surgeon about five, seven years ago when I did it.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I this is when my ego got the better of me.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'd worked with this guy for two years.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I'd add in an awful lot of value in terms of improving his profitability.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And to be quite honest, I'm I'm a kind of a bit of a red-blue person, um, but I've adapted now with the leadership and I get a lot of enjoyment out of this.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought doing a workshop like this, how does this really impact the bottom line straight away?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a bit dubious about doing it, even though I got accreditation.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I did it for the day, and he said the effect you had on the team was profound, it was the best training we've ever done.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw him six months later and he said they're still talking about their profiles now, but it's really improved the situation between the manager and the receptionist.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I can see it now because it's not always immediate, but when you've got a culture like that where people are getting on, turnover or people leaving, didn't happen.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And not surprisingly, their performance started to increase more because it became a more inclusive culture where people were getting on.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually a really good point because I don't I think people underestimate the impact that a poor working environment can have on the on the bottom line of the of the business.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I have seen it as well where in the very first clinic I've ever worked in, the patients would comment if there was a situation going on within the team.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Even the patients would pick up on the atmosphere, they say it feels a bit weird, you know, we didn't he today.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think that just goes to show how powerful and how much of an impact that can have.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and and like and actually we've spoken about it before because you work with this clinic that I've worked worked at, and we've spoken about the fact that they have a very high staff turnover, possibly one of the highest that you'd seen.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: What impact can that actually have, the tea the overall team culture on the profitability of a business?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh absolutely.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think all the listeners in medical aesthetics uh would appreciate that because relationships are so deep.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: When you have medical practitioners who then move away from a clinic, if they've been working there for two or three years, that connection with their patients is so strong.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not that any practitioner would deliberately go and poach patients, but if they were to go away and set up business, say 10 miles away, set up their website, their patients find them, they're not going out to attract them.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because that connection is so strong and they trust them, their custom would probably move to that practitioner.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when you've got high turnover, it really stunts growth.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: It can show up in potentially discrimination claims, so it can cost you there as well.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's time out your business trying to fight those.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was a report which was commissioned by ACAS about five years ago, and it was quite staggering that 50% of all their claims for a so unfair dismissal probably originate in this interpersonal conflict situation, you know, and that ideally doesn't need to happen.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: So and if I was to put my finger on it, why does this happen?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in some respects it's not human beings' fault.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you promote people or you land you end up in a situation where you've never had leadership training, then you know you can be have an IQ off the scale, but you either learn it on the job through trial and error.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: A better way would be to give people that structured training before they get that position, but certainly when they're in the position to get it, and a lot of all these kind of challenges you've got in the clinic would dissipate, you know.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think creating that harmony.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I suppose the other thing is if you're in a toxic culture at work, do people start taking time off with mental ill health as well?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, this is why I'm so passionate about what I do, what I do, is because you know, personally I've been there, I've turned it around, and it's become a real passion of me to try and help as many people as I can, you know, be good leaders.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, why do you think it's so common for people to be put into leadership roles without the development or you know, without any of you know any experience or skills or training or anything like that to support them?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's exactly what happened to me, you know, when I first entered aesthetics or the aesthetics interesting, I had my first ever job in a clinic just over well, around 10 years ago now.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so young, I barely had any life experience.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: So suddenly I'm being pushed into this role because you know, I think I'd come in and I've showed that I could get things done, you know, and I knew what I was doing and I had, you know, common sense.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like we like I said earlier, they had quite a high turnover.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as someone left and there was no one to kind of manage the team or do things that needed doing day-to-day in the clinic, that was kind of thrown into my lap.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I did a relatively good job, but at the same time, I probably could have done a lot better if I'd had the skills and experience.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think that people don't, you know so I I think I mean I remember that day when you did get promoted, and I think being fair to you, I think the owner saw qualities in you.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about what are the qualities of being a good leader, and I do remember, even though you were quite young, you had a maturity way beyond your years, you know.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you're calm in a crisis and you didn't overly react.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think people look for you for guidance, which is great leadership trait.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you had those core characteristics, so I think people do see that in other people.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the one thing I think people tend to promote people into management is usually they've been a top producer, they get things done, which is in relation to their day job.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: They've showed an attitude of commitment, they're hard working, and they naturally think with that attitude and those attributes and and being intelligent that will transpire into leadership.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: I did have a question recently from somebody who was saying that they were worried about taking on a senior position because they felt that the people who who the organization were employing were more experienced than them.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Experience is really interesting.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they were experienced in doing the day job, but are they experienced in leadership?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the point.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: The idea with being a good leader is definitely if you can attract people who are better than you at doing certain aspects of the day job, then happy days.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Your job is really to create that caring culture to get the best out of them.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's creating that trust and that respect.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think people don't invest in this for some of the reasons we said previously.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're worried about if I invest in this person, maybe they will then leave and I've lost my money, which is crazy.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not seeing the fact that if you do invest and you make them want to stay, you've probably got somebody who's going to be incredibly loyal and productive.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the cost of not doing that could be high turnover and poor performance anyway.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And also the that myth about the leadership as well.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, hopefully that answers your question.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think, you know, I think the way clinic owners need to think about it is they wouldn't take on a new injector and give them no kind of I mean, assuming they've probably got some experience, but they were probably going to develop them and mentor them and get them to a point where they're really confident in letting them go out and inject their patients and develop their skills in other treatments as well.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't you do the same thing for your for your managers and your your admin team?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think that's such a fantastic analogy.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: I wondered that myself.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Don't know the precise answer.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can I think maybe it's may maybe they're just seeing somebody when they're doing the day job that they they like the qualities and the attitude of that person, but that's great when they're doing their own job and they've got control over that, I think that's fine.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: The the question is it's sometimes untested when that person is put into leader group and get the best out of them, and then being tested under pressure and also having challenging situations as well.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are some people who have a natural affinity, but the one thing I really need to get across to your listeners that when we look at leadership and we compartmentalize it into four pillars, the empowering piece is one aspect of leadership.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are an engaging person and you find that your people naturally warm to you, that's the empowering piece of leadership, which you can still improve and develop.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the other key aspects of leadership are are you good at priority setting?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are you really good at time management?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you can sometimes find people who are great at empowering others, sometimes aren't they always great at the time management or the goal setting?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you've got to have that to be a truly good leader, and also are you personally self-aware?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are you up and down with your moods?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you show up to work, you have the right attitude every time.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: How good are you at managing yourself?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: That that self-discipline, and then finally the strategic piece.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when you look at a leadership uh under the realm of that total leader concept, you realise that actually most people have strengths in all sorts of different areas, but to be a leader, you need to connect all four.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: What about the imposter syndrome side of it?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because that I think this comes up a lot for people as well, yeah, especially when they're in those early days.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not necessarily early days of business, but they're maybe just starting to employ people and they're kind of questioning themselves, or when they're a manager and they're questioning themselves and how good they actually are at managing a team.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what you said a minute a moment ago.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to ask you, but actually.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is something I experienced myself when you're managing a team and you feel like everyone that you're managing is older than you or more experienced than you, I think you're more likely to then experience that kind of imposter those imposter syndromes and those feelings of doubt.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say, you know, to anyone who's struggling with that?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: So so first of all, I would say imposter syndrome is very common.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think it's over 80 to 90% of people who move into any new job role can be affected by that.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and and it might be, again, human beings, it's a thing which has kept us alive.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: We question ourselves, you know, inherently.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think the key question is if that continues and becomes a repeated pattern for the rest of your career and the rest of your life, that that's not healthy.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, what happens with quite a lot of people is you might get that imposter syndrome takes off to begin with, but as they get more training, more structure, and they become more competent in the job, sometimes that drops down and completely disappears.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an awareness piece as well.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, interestingly, some of the work I've done at LMI with some of my clients, outwardly I have two clients who professionally are incredible, incredibly uh successful, independent professional ladies.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes it's a real privilege to get to coach them because we try and focus on the one thing in their head which is self-sabotaging and and is holding them back.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: And usually what I've found is, and we know this from behavioural science, is it's nothing to do with the present day.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm no psychiatrist or psychotherapist, but with the right questioning, you usually find that there's something happened in somebody's past which is holding them back, which they're holding on to.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: It might have been a triggered event, and the unconscious is replaying that script in their mind, hence Carl Jung's comment about when you can tap into the unconscious and make it conscious, you can get radical change.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the most rewarding projects I've had this year is with a client whereby we've worked on the one thing which was holding her back.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: She said to me, This has been by far better than any therapy, and I've seen her grow in a situation where she's exerted so much confidence and and is doing really, really well in the career.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: This one thing, this niggly little critic, which has been holding her back for most of her career, has now been unlocked because of the framing and the realization that actually this is nothing to do with the present day.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: This goes right back to my childhood.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Did she was she aware of what it was before she started working with you?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think she was aware, but it wasn't really the I don't think she was aware of the power it had on every single decision.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: And also because it's a subconscious repetition of these thoughts, somebody didn't wasn't sitting down with her to say, look, has this got relevance right now in this situation?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or she'd framed it, it she'd framed it in a in a way which was very inhibiting, and we were trying to figure out with these other situations whether that had any relevance, and of course it wasn't.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: So then she felt empowered to move into other situations.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so I feel really proud of that, you know.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's really great, and it's like I say, it's a real privilege because you have to create a trust with somebody and know that it's 100% confidential, and you're there at the end of the day just to help serve them and and overc overcome that really.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do you go about though reversing that?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because, like you say, she'd had that since childhood.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really kind of yes concreted in, you know, in her belief system.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, when when people do struggle with imposter syndrome or feelings of self-doubt, you know, those negative thoughts are coming up daily, you know, yeah.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Which means that it's gonna take a lot of work to reverse that thinking.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how do you even start with that?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, since I've been joining LMI, there's there's there's a protocol which we we know works well, and it's it's changing that that that level of thinking.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it sometimes it just starts with recording your wins.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, how many times you sit down at the end of the day and empower yourself by saying, right, what are my three wins for the day?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not not not what you've done wrong, but what are my wins and what am I really proud of?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there's an element of looking at the things which hold us back and focusing on the things which go right, also it's trying to find out exactly where that trigger is and reframing that in in terms of affirmations which make them feel a lot more positive.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, you know, if somebody might have a feel a complete fear of conflict, you know, if they've got very strong green energy, they don't like conflict, but they may be framing any situation where there's not true alignment as conflict.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's not really conflict, but they might have interpreted that as a childhood event.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just an opportunity to get an alignment.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when we come back to this book, uh it's uh Patrick Leone's Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: The second dysfunction is a fear of conflict.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you if you're in a workplace and you've got everybody who is appears to be getting on delightfully well, but nobody airs anything because they're fearful of conflict, they're in this kind of nice team.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can't progress because issues get hidden under the table eventually until they eventually pop and it it gets worse.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: The question is to create this the situation where you know you can look at a look at a situation where but there is a disagreement, say that that's healthy because that's a different perspective in terms of experience or how you might want to communicate as well, and then build that in.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's raising awareness.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do have a situation like that, in when it comes, it's having positive affirmations, and what we know with people's thoughts is that with the unconscious, you'll keep repeating these thoughts.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: The great question with human beings is that you don't have to react to them, and sometimes a lot of the psychotherapists would be saying, Well, that's an interesting thought, but I can just let that pass.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean it's reality.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then the thing is, the more you focus on positive thoughts and positive affirmations, the more you repeat them over a period of time, they they start sinking into your into your subconscious.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like you'll you'll replaying a different script.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's I think it's like building a muscle, isn't it?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you know your your negative thought muscle might be very, very strong because you're constantly focusing on that side of things.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: But if you start like, and people will probably need to force themselves to do it at the start because it's not going to come naturally to them.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: But if you start really focusing on those positive things, like you say, at the end of the day, what your three wins that day, what three things you've achieved, what are three things that have gone really well, or that you did really well, that over time will become a habit that you just do automatically, just like at the moment you might automatically be thinking about the negative things.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is confidence, really?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if you're not doing that and you're always thinking about those kind of areas where, oh, you know, you're overthinking.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: How does it I think it's that belief in yourself.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: So when you play that script, like I've had these three wins, uh, what did I learn?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're being kind to yourself, you're being compassionate, and you're actually being a coach to yourself.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's the mindset to get into.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about personal leadership, number one, it's having a positive self-esteem and self-image.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we know not everybody has that, but it can be crafted over a period of time.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's just you've got to replay the different script in your mind.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be that you know I'm a parent myself, and nobody gives you a manual to be a good parent.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I look at how you know I've parented my two children and they're quite radically different compared to my daughter and my son.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I've made mistakes and I get self-conscious about what am I reinforcing in their mindset as well.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where when you do sort of focus on personal leadership.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing I found with LMI getting involved in all this, I wish I could have this 30 years ago because it would have made me, you know, probably a better friend, better spouse, better father, you know, it has all these connotations which help in your your personal life as well.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: So leadership isn't just about the work environment, it's about what what we say at LMI is uh it's the total person.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing about leadership as well is set goals in all aspects of your life.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I became a workaholic for 30 years, focus completely a lot on work.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult to say regret because at the end of the day, now I can put it right, but I spent too much time just focusing on that quadrant of my life when if I'd have balanced out all other aspects of my life, I think I'd have been feeling a bit more fulfilled, I'd have been a better leader and I would have showed up to work with a different attitude as well.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, my advice to people listening to this is have goals for your business, but also have goals for your life.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be friends, social, spiritual, learning and development, all that.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: When you connect all those up, you can thrive.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you your life is like a blank canvas, and you have the power to put onto that canvas whatever you you want, you're in control.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it life doesn't you can either let life happen to you and you focus on other people's goals, or at the end of the day, you can craft your own.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so true.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like you say, it's not just about you know, we're talking here a lot about work and career, but it's not just about that you have to be thriving in other areas.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're happy in your personal life and you're doing social things and you've got hobbies and you're developing yourself, that's going to fuel your career and how you perform at work and how you come across to other people and your confidence and self-esteem.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: You don't just become that one kind of person who's just that workaholic.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: I interestingly, I went to a networking event online.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a guy who had a really interesting background, and he's created a podcast all about interviewing people in terms of what they do for their hobbies and how this translates into work and help them at work.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what you're talking about.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so interesting.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sure it's not something people tend to think about, but I'm sure it has a huge impact.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are I mean, I'm conscious that we have been talking for a long time, and I'm going to give you a couple of dilemmas in a minute so you can give people advice on what you would do if you were in these situations.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: But before we do, just tell me if someone's listening to this and you know, maybe they're a clinic owner or clinic manager and they want to become a better leader or they want to help, you know, improve the overall culture of the team, what are a few things that they can implement today?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: What are a few key things that you think need to be in place in order to have a strong team?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think the fundamental thing is if I take my personal example, things changed for me when I reached out and got help.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the number one is to recognise that, you know, have you ever been trained in being the uh a good leader?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that isn't just reading a book.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the mistake some people think and about and the way society is training us right now is we want a quick fix, we don't want to put the work in, we want that social meme, the secret source.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll read that, I'll read that book, and afterwards, like a magic wand, I'll be the best leader ever.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll do that in record time.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, fortunately, that doesn't exist, but what I would do is that I would reach out to somebody and go down a coaching route.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing to avoid is probably doing one-off training.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Online is great for information, but information in today's world has almost got no value.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: What you need when you want to develop yourself is that is that the right educational development system.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what I would say is that what helped me and what is also mimicked with LMI with behavioral science is that you need to go on a path where you define exactly the kind of goals of what you're trying to achieve, and then you go on a program.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: Depending on what leadership aspect you want, you pick the appropriate program for you, and then over a series of say three months or six months, you you listen to podcasts and you engage with uh online learning and you use those tools on your job, and you have regular meetings with your coach to apply it.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: The key here is multi-sensory learning and space repetition.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've ever heard of a guy called Ebbing House.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't until I got into this field, but this was a social scientist who lived in the 19th century, and this is incredible.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: This guy realized that people being human is to forget.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the only way you can retain information for any length of time is through repetition, repetition, repetition.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you go on a one-off training course, the terrible situation here is that after about 30 days, you've lost average person 85% of what you learnt.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you then carry on months afterwards, you don't really apply the theory, it just seeps out.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: So when you go through a true coaching program, you're doing stuff on the job, you're coming back to what you what you've what you've been focused on, it's very relevant, you're doing stuff, it's multi-sensory learning, and you've got that that other person to brainstorm and challenge you and raise your self-awareness.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we know with LMI over 60 years is that you get permanent attitude and behavioural change with the tools you use.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we've touched on things like affirmations of journaling, it's daily habits which build to change your your attitude and your your behaviour, really.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so true.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's all well and good listening to these things like this like this podcast now, but you actually do have to go and start applying different things to what you're already doing if you want to improve and making it a habit and building it into your day-to-day.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I would say with podcasts, they're great.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Something like this is great because it it's raising self-awareness, and hopefully there'll be people listening to this and say, Yeah, I really connect with that.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's stage one, but that could be the start of your journey.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're delivering a fantastic service to people.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think so.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right, I'm gonna bring up a couple of dilemmas now that people have sent me from their own experiences that they're having, and then I'd love to get your thoughts on how you would deal with this or suggest that they deal with this.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is from a practitioner who set up their own clinic, and she said, I built my whole reputation on being the best in my area at what I do.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: My patients trust me completely.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: But since I've started to take on staff, my standards have slipped because I can't be everywhere at once and I don't know how to hold other people to the same standard that I hold myself without becoming a micromanager.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've already lost one good member of staff because of it.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: What can I be doing differently?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's an all too common scenario and dilemma I've heard quite a lot over the sort of 30 years, really.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think this could be a situation without interviewing this lady, whereby she has got very exacting standards.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: She knows that she's worked really, really hard as a producer to develop a business, and and there's a there's a certain fear drive going on here about delegation.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: When she said I can't be everywhere at once, that also indicates to me that indirectly she may be micromanaging, realizing that micromanaging isn't the answer, and that's going to lead to burnout.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, this scenario sometimes arises through self-awareness of that person when it comes to leading other people.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: What should they be doing and what should they be trusted with, and what decisions should ultimately come through that person?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: It could also be a social style.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if she is a bit of a perfectionist and she's not coaching, but she's giving answers, sometimes that can create a paralysis in the team because staff will be fearful of making mistakes.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: We hear this phrase an awful lot, psychological safety, but very simply put, when you work in a clinic where there's strong you know connection with everybody, there's trust and the psychological safety, it means that staff can perhaps raise concerns.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: They don't feel like they're gonna get their head bitten off, and they're happy to own up to say they made a mistake.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be, you know, if you do make mistakes and you get your head bitten off, you're gonna either knock go out your way to take responsibility and also hide them.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a culture you just don't this so if this lady wants to build that exacting culture but she's not mindful of how to do it, and she's not mindful of her self-awareness, and maybe she's overly controlling on every decision going through her, you can have some mishires, but if she's got three staff, I think the ultimate would suggest she has to analyse herself first of all in terms of how she's coming across, how her behaviours are coming across to other team members, and why aren't they thinking for themselves?
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: And have they got the right structures and processes in place and what decisions they're expected to make and what success looks like for them on the job.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, from your experience, would you say would you add anything else, Emily, on that?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would just say you like we've said earlier, you have to trust people, you have to learn to trust people.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: No one wants to be micromanaged, no one wants to feel like a child at work, no, and like they can't perform and it holds people back.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think when I work with people like that, I think that probably clashes with my personality type.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would be more likely, I don't know what I'd be more likely to.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'd be more likely to go inwards into myself and not perform as well as I know I could do.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then at a certain point the frustration would come out in boil over, yeah, and then there would be a conflict that may maybe didn't ever need to happen if it had just been talked about and communicated properly from the start.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: But because I'd gone into myself and not expressed myself, yeah, then it would eventually turn into something bigger.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I do think, like you say, you have to trust people, you have to, you just have to.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be everywhere at once, you can't be thinking about every aspect of the business if you're busy.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole reason of bringing other people on, is to free up your time and so you can focus on other things.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Have those processes in place, like you say, coach people, give them lots of training and support.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: And most people want to do a good job, you know, no one's gonna go out of their way to do a rubbish job to upset patients, to you know, get things wrong.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just about giving people the right support and mentorship, and then if things do go wrong, helping them understand what they need to do differently next time so it doesn't happen again.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you say, people are human, they're gonna make mistakes.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it's that point of we live in a world where the vast majority of staff, 95%, want to come to work and do the best possible job.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then if we look at the stats, we find that across the world only about 20% of employees are fully engaged.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's gotta be the fact that a lot of people have are taken on these tough challenges of leading people without having the structure.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: So people are just lost and a bit aimless in what their purpose is and what they're doing and what they should be doing day to day and how to get the best out of their definitely been there.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I hear it with a lot of medical owners, you know, they've said they've said to me, you know, they've scaled up, they've got lots of staff, they've never been trained, they find it really stressful, and they look back when they first started.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them actually said, Well, to a certain extent we were making a little bit more money, and I was by far happier, but now I'm employing all these people, and again, because they're I suppose they're winging it on the leadership thing, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually I think they do learn through trial and error, but they've had a lot of mental angst along the way, so it doesn't have to be like that.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is a good one.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: So this is from a clinic manager, a bit of a similar story to my own.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was promoted from receptionist to clinic manager about eight months ago because I was good at my job and the owner trusted me, but nobody told me what being a manager actually meant.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to manage people who were my colleagues and friends six months ago, and now I have to pull them up on things and have difficult conversations, and I feel like they don't take me seriously.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm failing, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think it's a common scenario, isn't it, where people do get promoted.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the other thing is when you get promoted from being a person in the team to being the manager, that can be doubly challenging.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some people might say, well, if you're recruited as a manager, people don't know your background, they're establishing your relationship as the manager from day one.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that could be easier.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: But what I would say though is that the first thing is to understand from the owners where you've got authority as a manager and where you haven't.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: So making sure that you you you truly know where that authority and that responsibility lies.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing is to make sure that you're going around and you're connecting with people and making it very clear that you've got their best interests at heart.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: But because of this now, you know, it's defining the values and the behaviours and setting an inspiring division for the team on how you can cooperate as well.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think once people know that personality, your intent, and having that sort of process moving forward, that's when they buy into you.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: For somebody who I think sometimes I've seen scenarios where people are walls after bin, they're coming to a company and they want to get into management, it they feel they like the status.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge sometimes with that is that maybe they're doing that because the status makes them feel good.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be calibrated with the fact that sometimes top performers do have that kind of strong ego, but when you go into a position of management, you have to temper that down because your job is to achieve through other people.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that connection is absolutely vital.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the the challenge for a lot of people like that would be they might then worry about upsetting that relationship because maybe they've created a friendship relationship, now they're in that position of authority.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: This sounds tough, but there is an unequal balance now, and to mistake the fact that you are then going to be friends with people is a is is not the right kind of mindset.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think somebody in a very, very large corporate rank once said to me, and was great advice, Marcus.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, it is very challenging to be truly friends with somebody when you're their manager, but on every occasion you should be friendly and caring, and there's a big difference.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: So So and I think the trouble is, you know, in this industry where it's so personable, people confuse friendship and then also authority as well.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: And those lines get blurred.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: But as a manager you and a leader, you have to be in a position whereby you can give concise feedback to somebody, but not as a judgment call, but as a way of developing them for the future and for the practice.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also being humble yourself as well, that when you lead with vulnerability yourself, this is one of the ri the ways I turned my team around when I thought I was failing.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge the team that I got certain maybe key weaknesses.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: That isn't that I opened up with my personal life and became emotional and talked about that, but I would be quite transactional to say, yeah, sometimes I get this wrong.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: By showing that and showing vulnerability that I'm not perfect, it made it acceptable for everybody else to air when they were wrong.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: What I sometimes get from a certain school of thought is, well, if you're a manager or a leader, you have to be perfect, you don't show vulnerability.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's very old school, and behaviourally, that's not going to be bring the best out in people.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, well, people will feel like on edge around you, I think.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like they have to be a certain standard, and if they're having a bad day, they have to hide it.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, whereas if you hold your hands up and say, Look, I'm not perfect, I've made mistakes too.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: People are more likely to feel comfortable and open up to you and respected, and you'll get the most out of people, I think.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I was probably old school and there were a few male colleagues who I worked with, and I remember going to one meeting, and I put my hand up to say, you know, I didn't quite fully understand this, and maybe I needed a little bit of extra training.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: I got a kick under the under the table saying, Why are you doing that?
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're looking incompetent.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and in my view, it was the fact that I was confident to be able to say that, and I was very much focused about a learning culture, and I, you know, was being honest.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting with my colleague's opinion, he had my best interests at heart because in his world, he liked to present himself as the all-knowing eye, no vulnerability.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: Could be an element of the way he was brought up as well.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think that's going to connect with a lot of people though, that approach.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't think it will.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, really.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it will just make people dislike you and not want to, you know, open up to you and be honest with you and I think maybe sometimes again genders males may go down that route a little bit more, but we know with behavioural science now, in if we if it's gender neutral and we're just looking at personality as now, showing that element of vulnerability.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think there was a case on the internet once where people took this to an extreme where one guy broke down in tears, went, was trying to show vulnerability and connect with people, but he he went over the top with it, and then I think then that's where people can question sometimes your your personal leadership and you know calmness under pressure, and it made it look like he was going to pieces and couldn't handle the pressure.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you you can go to extremes.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's always like in life, everything is balance, isn't it?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: Balance, that's it, finding the right balance, yeah.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh Marcus, this has been an amazing episode.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so, so great chatting about this with you, and hopefully, it's given people a lot of value and a lot of key things to take away.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is the first part of the three-part series.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the next episode, we're going to be talking about the insights profile in a little bit more depth and different personality types and how understanding different personality types will help you help make you a better leader.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But before we go, just tell my audience a little bit about you know where they can find you if they want to learn more, where they can connect with you.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, so my company is Transformational Leadership Consulting.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've got my own website, but I'm also very prominent on TIN.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I want it to offer value to a lot of listeners as well.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I do a weekly newsletter, which comes out on a Saturday always, so people can pick up real life case studies or thoughts about leadership on that.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And also I do a Monday session where I'm keeping abreast of every everything which is trending in leadership as well, which is called the um it's sort of like leadership brief.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if people want to bookmark that as a topical post, but generally it's it's LinkedIn.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can get my profile there, Marcus Haycock Transformational Leadership Consulting.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I will put all the key links in the show notes as well.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if you do want to find Marcus, just head to the show notes and it will direct you straight over there.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: This has been amazing.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, it's been an absolute pleasure, and I'm really enjoyed the setting.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if viewers could see the cosy room we're in right now, I mean it's amazing.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Emily.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's been brilliant.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.