Latest / The Accounting Leads Now Podcast / Your Bookkeeping Isn’t Broken. Your Strategy Is - With Cameron Williams

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Your Bookkeeping Isn’t Broken. Your Strategy Is - With Cameron Williams · The Accounting Leads Now Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Most people get fired in spiral.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Cameron Williams got fired and built a CFO firm that helped business owners save over$2 million in taxes.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's the founder of Kinley Consulting, and today we're talking about the moments that shaped his journey from career setbacks to big wins and why his approach to accounting looks nothing like what most firms are doing.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a fractional CFO or firm owner trying to attract better clients, charge what you're worth, and actually grow without relying on referrals, this is the one you want to hear.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive into it.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Cameron, thank you so much for joining the joining the show, man.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to have you here.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: No problem.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Glad to be here.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to get straight into it because you have a really cool story, and I want the the listeners to hear it.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start with the moment that changed everything.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: You got let go from your last job.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: What happened and how did that moment shape where you are now?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, thank you for having me.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, um, so this is my kid is eight.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So this is like eight years ago now.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was working for the number one card processing company in the world, and I was over the Canadian division.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that means all those transactions that hit from credit cards, debit cards ran through my desk.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Canada.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, shout out to Canada because I have been to Toronto.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you're talking about millions coming through my desk every day.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had a team of about seven or eight people, and so we were just responsible for, of course, reporting on that.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what it was, the company had moved from Baltimore down here.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, a whole bunch of people didn't move.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: So they had to hire basically every single position, and so that was across the board.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was at the supervisor level, and so what happened was on the same day.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: This happened at first, you know, I'm up here feeling bad, like, man, they put me on the perform the PIP plan, you know.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, I'm just trash.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm really trying my best.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then I found out the day I got let go that two other people in my same position, but just in the different divisions, also got let go for the exact same reason, same thing word for word.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I both know when you fire somebody, like you're not gonna fire people for the same reasons, but like it was the same day, same setup, happened on the same day, even though we didn't see each other and pick up on it, and it was all for the same reason.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like because I was uh Canadian, this person was US, and I forgot the other person, and so that's kind of when life changed because at that point, my now eight-year-old was about to be born.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, like within the next 30 days, I'm like, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is crazy.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I found out, you know, when you get insurance, it stays like 30 days after you get fired, but there was that, so that's kind of what got me out of corporate um in regards to starting the actual company.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually my wife's idea, and so because my thing was like, oh, I got out, I didn't put the degrees up, but oh man, I got all these degrees.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go find another job like I've always done.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I never had been without a job, and because I had the master's and experience and the upper mobility, I'm thinking it's nothing.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, didn't work that way.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so my wife was like, you know, I was praying about it, and I feel like you should just start your own.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, mm-mm.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, nope, I'm not feeling that.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because at that point, you know, the trauma of being fired while having a baby.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, who would want to hire me?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: What could I contribute?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to run a business, etc.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then so that would have been so she's born in September.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: She said this in October of 2017.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it took me all the way until July of 2018 to comma kind of come around to it.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's when we started July 2018, and then just been a slow, steady growth uh curve since then.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I will we'll get into it a little bit later because I've uh I've heard through the marketing world who you you work with as your ideal clients, um, there's actually been quite a bit of scaling that's taken place.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the slow, steady growth, I think you're being a little humble on that, but we can uh we can dive into that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: So Cameron, you you talk a lot about playing offense with your finances.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: What does that actually mean?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And why isn't bookkeeping alone enough for businesses?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we try to tell our clients we want you to be on offense.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So think if if you're a football uh person, right?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Think Kansas Chief City Chiefs, we want to go attack because I think traditionally accountants are very much more reactive, which would be defense, right?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Defense, you dictate what I'm gonna do.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: We don't like that approach because, especially on the marketing agency side, people grow so fast and get so much money so fast.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen people go from making 10K one year, like 10k per month, to now you're making 30 or 40 grand.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know about you, but in my case, that's different.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had never made 10K in a month, so duh, I've never made 30.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: How do you manage this money?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do with it?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wait, I'm gonna get taxed on it.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how much am I gonna get taxed on?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: How do we change that?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: The only way to fix these is we have to be on offense so that we get to dictate the terms of the game, and so that's what we push to our clients.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And to your bookkeeping question, I don't, I think in school, we get taught that bookkeeping is, you know, the business language, which I agree with that part.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think somewhere along the line, we were taught or convinced ourselves that financials are bookkeeping is mandatory.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't understand that, you're wrong.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: But that's just not reality.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: When you're talking to a business owner, their number one thing is I need to make this money and do with it, fill in the blank things.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't appeal to bookkeeping, which is what we as accountants do.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: You have to appeal to the whys that they want.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer to solve this is bookkeeping.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So with our clients, they're not hiring me because I can do that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're hiring me because you don't want to pay as much to the IRS.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, guess how we do that?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Through bookkeeping.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I want to know what I'm gonna owe at the end of the year, but it's only March.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: We can do that through bookkeeping.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: But we can take some different approaches that are more higher-level skills, but that's how we go on offense.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do some projections, trends, analysis.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let me hear what your goals are so that we can turn that into an actionable plan and then work backwards from that and know when to hire or know when not to, or save money because in the winter that's your slow season.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: So let's save all the money from the summer and put that over here to the side so that you that's going on offense versus reactionary and what's tradition when it's tax season.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna send you this bill, you know, a day before you owe it or the day of.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really talk to you throughout the year.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm giving you reports late, you can never reach me, it's hard to talk, etc.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what we try to do.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta say, this summer I I fell victim to being reactionary, not having you know certain certain finances in check.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it was it was hard work getting out of that that water that was above our head, you know, feeling and getting back to a space where we're comfortable.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know what your take on profit first is, because we implemented that probably about six weeks ago.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And man, I wish that was something that I implemented six years ago when I started this business, because what a game changer that has been in just such a short amount of time.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I I feel like I could have avoided a lot of stress and headaches and sleepless nights this past summer if we had Profit First implemented you know, years ago.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mostly like Profit First.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that from a visibility standpoint it works and conceptually it works.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think for the non-numbers person, which most marketing agencies are non-numbers people, you have to be very careful because it can make it very convoluted and complicated for no reason.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you really look at it, profit first is no different than the Dave Ramsey envelope method.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: But instead of using envelopes, you're just using bank accounts.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for those of you who don't know what profit first is, basically we want to set aside a percentage to put in a profit account, some in income, some in expenses, some in tax savings, etc.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But basically every dollar has a purpose and goes into these different buckets.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that way, if you log into your bank account, you automatically know at any given time where you are.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: My only challenge with that is remember, most business owners are not good with numbers or money.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So to say put 23% of this in this account, like that gets really confusing for some people.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we kind of do it a little more on the simplified.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't call it profit first, but like, hey, you should have the money where your income and expenses are, you should have a tax savings account, you should have an additional account, which we can use that for either rainy day, um, what else?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Can people use it for payroll?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna put my payroll over there.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So like I will use myself.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a tax savings account, I have the main account that the money comes in and out of.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have a third account where like I put all my mastermind money.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I go ahead and take that out.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that way, hey, all my advertising, masterminds, etc., is gonna come out of here.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when I get down to paying whatever, whatever's in my main account, I know that this is what I have to last for the whole month.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, in its basic core concept, is cool.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like how I try to like shame the accountants, you know what I'm saying?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: He was trying to really go at us like that.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So most of the accountants don't like him, but I've seen the guy in person, I've heard him speak.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: I personally like his clockwork book a lot better because I think that helps to kind of uh systemize more and help you to really think through what you're doing and building.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: But profit first in its basic form, I think it's a good concept, but I would just say simplify it if you know you're not a money person.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of income all comes in and I transfer it all out.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I like to do income and my main expenses in one.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: You got your tax savings, you have just an extra savings just to hold, which is typically a rainy day or savings.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you'll probably want an extra one just to hold, whether it's payroll or whatever the case is.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: All right, cool.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: I I appreciate the uh a little bit of the hot take or the controversial take on that.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: I would I would be I'd like to know um your first job was rough.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: What went what went wrong and what did it teach you about the kind of firm that you wanted to build?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: The first job, like that I got hired to do, or like my first ever career job?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the first like either one.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm curious, like what maybe was the motivation for you during your career before you went out on your own to be like, yeah, this is the type of firm I want to build.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so probably going back to when I was still in college, uh, when I was in my master's program, the very first I played, very first place I worked was this company.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's down in Valosta because I went to Valester State, Go Blazers.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Go Blazers.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there was this firm there called Valenti Rackley and Associate.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: So shout out to Nick and Denise, and he brought me on, and that was my first two years of just real world experience where I learned real world versus what they teach in that book is not the same.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I still was good at it, it still made perfect sense.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was still able to excel in it, and I always thought, man, if I got older and I had something like this, this is pretty much exactly like how I want to run it from the family atmosphere because we were all in person.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So this is, mind you, 2011, 12, 13.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So COVID hadn't happened yet.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's everybody's still in person.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Nick, who's the owner, his daughter worked for him, his sister-in-law, Denise, who's the other partner, they worked together at a prior place, the front desk worker, they all knew.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, this is cool.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is like I could see myself building this.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is not what I ended up building, but a lot of those same systems processes, how they went through and taught is a lot of the same things that we kind of implement now.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, I've just added in the different things that I've learned at all my different spots, some financial analysis from here, how we deal with clients from here, this specific close process from here, and I've kind of made my own thing.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I'm really interested to hear from your take on this.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: As a CFO, what's the hardest part of shifting from doing great work to consistently getting great clients?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is where I'm currently at.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a good question.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think at the beginning, um everybody's a technician, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm the one doing the accounting, the meetings, the HR, the back end, like you're the one doing it all, versus now, because we have a team of seven, um, I'm able to now offload that to them, and that's their strength.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And now I have to think more big picture.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: How do we increase sales?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do we have consistent sales?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what does the right client look like for us?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because what is a great client now?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Back, you know, three or four years ago, I may not have even gone for that type of person.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or that definition may have changed.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you just needed to have a business and make some money, and I'll take you.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Versus now it's like, if you're below this certain threshold, may not be worth it based on my history of dealing with that type of person.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you continue to learn over time and you start to understand like where are my boundaries at?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like when this client is leaving, which thank the Lord we have a great retention rate, but of course, somebody's gonna leave forever.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're never gonna have a forever client.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: What based on their feedback?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a client that I would have gotten regardless?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a client that I kind of overlook some things just because I wanted to sign a client and hit my sales goals, but they really weren't the right fit?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like you start to look at that, and then of course, that gives you the information for your next set of um prospects that you're going after.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, up there showing me this flag.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of like, yeah, no, that may not work.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or wow, this is like the perfect case, or wow, we've barely worked with this type of agency, but I know we can knock it out the park.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you just kind of learn um over time what it is that you want.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then because I'm now operating as more of the owner, hey, team, this is our expectation and this is how we serve a client.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm expecting you to deal with this.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a me issue, this is you, or all of those different things that you wouldn't think about team dynamics, how to hire, how do we coach our team up?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get them to be at least 80% as good as I was on the deliverables so that I can continue to focus on growth and supporting the client, not doing the actual work.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you work with marketing companies, so I'm I'm really interested to hear your take on this because um, on the flip side, as a marketing company myself, I work with accounting firms and bookkeepers and tax planners and fractional CFOs.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like I've been blessed with having a little bit of an unfair advantage to a lot of business owners where I live in the world of finance now, and I've learned so much so fast that I don't think I would have learned as quickly if I say just worked with a completely random industry.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I get to live and talk cash flow and tax reduction and expense reduction strategies all the time.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: With all that being said, yes, running into that financial hiccup this summer now implementing profit first.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: But do you feel you have an unfair advantage when it comes to marketing and growing your business because you live and interact with marketing companies on a daily basis?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: So great it, great quick answer.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what's what's one thing that you've tried to grow your firm that totally flopped?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: And what did you take from it?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then I want to hear about the stuff that is really working that that our listeners can implement as well.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: All right, flopped ads.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: We can't get our ads to work to save our lives.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is funny because like having clients that are marketing agencies, clearly I know ads work, clearly I know it makes people money.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked with multiple agencies, I've tried it myself.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: For whatever reason, it just doesn't work.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I personally believe in order for ads to work, because you have such a big trust gap to have to close, like doing the ad that maybe a normal agency would do wouldn't work because uh either I'm gonna pay for SEO or I'm not, versus when you're talking about people social and taxes and money and bank accounts, and I need password access.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody wakes up and says, Man, I need a new accountant.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let me go on Facebook and just find a Facebook ad.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody does that, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Versus, I think probably what would be a better play would be to probably run an Evergreen webinar, run ads to the webinar to get the people to come, you give them some type of value, which is what would close the trust gap, and then of course get them to the call.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So my flop would be I've tried, I think four times now, ads does not work for us.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think your other question was what has worked really well.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: What has worked, but I do want to jump in on the ads piece because there's, as you know, is a ton of different platforms to run them on.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's a million ways to run ads.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I would be, I mean, that's a very hot take saying they don't work.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: You just haven't seen it work on your side.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, right.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, see, my marketing agency people, they always love it when I oh damn.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying ads don't work, I'm just saying for us specifically.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: For you that haven't worked, yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, again, we have clients that run, you know, Google ads, uh, social or meta ads.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have some people that run TikTok ads, a couple that float over YouTube.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, do we know they work?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it just I have yet to see it work for us, and we've spent plenty of money, done the creatives, etc.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my personal hot take.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I know you're gonna beat me up because you have ages in the world.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that the the recording, the recording's done now.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have to end uh end this episode.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I would love to hear, Cam, what what has worked for you then?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: So you you guys have tested some ads, haven't found the the successful recipe for it yet.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: But what what is working for you guys to bring on new clients and and have that predictable engine where you don't have to worry about inconsistent referrals?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm not gonna say I was just predictable.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's something I've always worked on.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: But for us, organic social is probably our biggest, and then the second one would be in other groups with other agency owners.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, our social media strategy being organic, post at least three to five times a day.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did do this like 30-day challenge where I did 10 posts a day.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: That was crazy.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, y'all.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's wild.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how we started growing initially.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're growing more so because we're in a couple of different groups where they're mainly agency owners.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you get one, you do well, they tell the buddy, and then it grows that way.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been probably our if I look at the data going back to offense, the data says that yes, I'm having to pay a premium to get in this group, but once you get one, they typically retain a lot longer and don't turn.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Versus the ones from organic, they will typically stay, but they would be the ones that are more likely to turn.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, those two ways have really worked pretty well.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I travel about once a month now to go to one of these meetups or in-persons.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but that's worked really well because, of course, if you can train other people to be your spokesperson and be your eyes and ears, you're getting a lot warmer lead, which is a lot easier to close, versus on the ad side, these are typically gonna be colder um prospects coming in, which is a lot harder to close, a lot harder to get them on a call, etc.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're that's that's like a very much a one-to-one sale.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be really hard.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can make the ask, and and we always make the ask, we train our clients to make that ask.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: To is there hey, who are two to three other people in your network who could benefit from what we're what we're offering you right now.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: That works, but obviously, if you're already in a network or an environment where everyone had like the sending referrals is so much more common.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you might spend a little bit more money on those masterminds and flights and travel and all those things, but once you're in, your cost of acquisition just continues to drop so quick because it I mean, more or less, it's kind of a Trojan horse approach.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: You get in there, hey, you do an awesome job, and now you're able to serve that entire community.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that's wicked.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's really cool to hear.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not like the people who run those masterminds are up there with a billboard, like go talk to Cam, but it is always cool to see, hey, I got four or five in this group, I got two or three in this group.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when you just come in and serve from a high level, you you do pretty well.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And going back to what you were talking about earlier, because I'm around marketers, I I have learned that touch points are super important.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I used to be that guy too, where I'm back here in the background just working really hard, but I didn't have those same check-ins and touch points to keep the client up to date.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Versus now I noticed and talking to my clients on strategy calls, hey, we have a you know a bi weekly touch point and we give them this update.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I should probably try that too.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really worked and helped us to retain.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another good thing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And learning from Osmosis, now I get to be better in marketing.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: We get to stand out a little bit more.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're on the cutting edge with AI and know how that's gonna affect.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of learn from just the industry as a whole as well, which is gonna, of course, help us to be a better business.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: So many, so many good takeaways there.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: What's one belief in the accounting world you completely disagree with?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And why do you think it's holding firms back?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is easy.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: That bookkeeping is just so valuable.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot sell that's what I used to do.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first started with organic, if you don't have bookkeeping, you're gonna pay more in taxes.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: That was the post.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And like it worked, but you'll find out it works for smaller dollar people, right?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Your people making, let's say, 10k or less.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have to speak to big money problems if you want bigger clients.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: So then it transformed into hey, not able to step away from your business and still don't know if you're making the right amount of money.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably something you should fix.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's come that's a whole different thing.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to learn that concept.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I think as an accounting industry, we are terrible with follow-ups.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: We are terrible with communication.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you even go back to psychology, we're the analytical put me in the corner, just let me do my thing.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're not the creatives, which tend to be more communicative and more talking.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we had to be very conscious of that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the industry as a whole, we do a terrible job with communication, follow-ups, because we just go and do our thing.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go do my thing.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And when you ask, I probably will have it ready.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But otherwise, no.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the lack of follow-up, lack of communication, and us putting too much value on books being clean, that's not where, at least in our case.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I tell people all the time, like, you don't need me to tell you these are office supplies.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need me for that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're a genius.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: You need me to tell you, hey, can I afford to hire this person or do I need to wait?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, how are my margins looking?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, what do I spend on average with the team?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, why are there these ups and downs spikes?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, which product or package is the most profitable?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which one do we need to cut?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to diverse?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the questions our people are asking us.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: The bookkeeping is the data that helps us to strategize and answer it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the bookkeep, nobody's come, you know, and people will say all the time, like, man, I could go get bookkeeping done for$200 in the Philippines.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: You probably could.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Don't know how good it would be, but you probably could.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the minute they start asking them strategy questions, those are the people we get.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Man, they're doing my books, and I guess they're okay.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: But when I ask them these kind of questions, like they just give me the runaround, or they can't, because that's not what a bookkeeper is trained to do or an accountant.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's why there's controller, there's CFO for those deeper strategy items.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, bookkeepers fine when you're under 10K.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe even get by 15.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: But once you start making 20, 25 grand, I tell people, and they never think about it like this, but have you ever made a quarter of a million dollars in a year before?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Most people are gonna say, no, right, because 20 grand times 12, that's 240.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably gonna have a good spike in there, that's 250.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: You've never made that much.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you asking a bookkeeper, they don't know.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: My job is just to tell you this is the right bucket and that it balances.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's my job.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's a bookkeeper.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you start talking about strategy, CFO, financial analyst, accounting analyst.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're getting into trend, strategy, projections, tax strategy, etc., which is what people want after they're at that 25, 30 grand and up phase.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: That was a very long answer to your question.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's perfect.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of again, a lot of good, insightful value there.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's I mean, it's the same in our space, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, no one wakes up out of bed and goes, I need to buy bookkeeping today.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's at the top of my list.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I need.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: No one wakes up to buy accounting or sorry, to buy marketing.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: What they're buying is the outcome of now there's there's more visibility on their brand, they're getting more phone calls, but will generate more revenue.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And to your point, they're not buying the bookkeeping, they're buying all the strategy that now gives them the financial data to make better decisions for their business, ultimately to make more revenue.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you're buying, you're they're buying the solution, not the the physical, you know, acting for lack of better words.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And for accountants, I just think that's really hard because your whole life has been based on spreadsheets, journal entry, especially if you're coming from corporate, then you didn't even do it all.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: You probably were just in a certain department and only worked on this thing.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very hard transition to now move to I have to speak to the outcome.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: You want more time with your kid.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do that because you don't know if you can make payroll, or you don't know if you can pay yourself, or you have to get rid of this debt, but you're just now cash.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have to speak to those things and you will find that you'll get a lot further along.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so good.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, two two more questions here for you, Cameron, then we'll uh we'll tie a bow on this.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: If people listen and forget everything except one one piece, one piece of advice.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: What what should they walk away with today?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Meet with their accountant right now because we're getting to the end of the year.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I hear.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Every single Q1, it never fails.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Ever, ever, ever.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been doing this going on almost eight years now.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Cameron, I wish I would have known this last year because I could have made changes, or I could have done something different, or I could have spent some more, I could have had a better plan.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: But that's because they don't talk to their accountant or bookkeeper.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get to March and it's tax time, and this is your first time talking to them, and you have no clue, or you get to April, and it's the day before the deadline, and I gotta pay 30 grand.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You got some people that can't even pay it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: You got some that have the money to pay it, but they're pissed because they're like this just came out of nowhere.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to tell everybody it is Q4.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Your accountant should be reaching out to you, your fractional CFO, whatever you want to call them, should be reaching out saying, Let's get a call on the books, let's go through everything through Q3, because that should be done by now, because we're in November.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And let's talk through where do we think we will land?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: What do we want to do?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: What tax bracket are you?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have that conversation now.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if your accountant is not the one reaching out to you, you only have two choices.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Either A, this is probably not the person I need to give me to that next level in the stage because I'm having to chase them down and ask them, or B, you're gonna be the one.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And proactively set up the meeting, but now you're always having to be that person.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I'd rather pay you a premium and you come chase me down and get on my nerve than the other way around.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to add to that as well for all of the listeners who are who are the firm owner, who are the fractional CFO, the tax planners, reach out to your clients and don't just send them an email.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Be proactive and pick up the phone and call them and say, we need to have this conversation before the end of the year.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Your clients will appreciate it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's going to add so much more trust and value and retention.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be scared to like just pick up the phone and call them.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Don't hide behind the email.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's oh, I've reached out.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I sent them an email and they never got back to me.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, you're doing what everyone else is doing, expecting different results.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Pick up the phone and call them.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: So to your point, Cameron, they need to be speaking to their accountant, and if the accountant needs to reach out to them, that's just the way this needs to go.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, very last question for you.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's a hard one.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: The best piece of advice I've ever received.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go with probably touch points.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I used to think like the most important thing is getting the job done and it being accurate, which is mostly true.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you never tell the client, then all they know is I paid you X amount of thousands of dollars to fix this, and I have not heard from you in five, six, seven, eight weeks.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you ran off with my money, I don't know anything.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, you're over here working your butt off trying to, oh no, I'm almost done.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Touch points, I think, are what increase your retention.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's what allows you to walk with people, and that kind of aligns with aligns with who I am as a person.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I want to do life with people, I want to walk with you side by side.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, from a business standpoint, we can do that by establishing certain monthly rhythms, certain touch points.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I had to really work on that because again, I was very much, but it's getting done.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, why are you upset?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: But to be non-numbers person, which is typically agency owners, bro, I'm nervous.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: All I know is I came to you to solve this problem, my money looking funny.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's going on.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I paid you what's going on.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think increasing our touch points and communication, even if it may seem a little overkill, has worked wonders because now the client doesn't get that out or that cop out to be like, I have no idea.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, at least in our case, every Friday you get an update on what your stuff is looking like if you're newer and we do a call every other week.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: That way, nothing falls behind the cracks.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then once all that's completed, our clients are getting the monthly financial certain packages we meet with every month, certain packages we meet with every quarter.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have Slack so that we're able to talk to them throughout the week.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: It makes it easier to ask questions, they're used to it.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just increasing our touch points did wonders for us as a business and just really helped us to continue to grow and support our clients at a high level.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's amazing.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you sharing all that, Cameron.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again for coming on.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: This was an awesome episode, a ton of a ton of great insight and knowledge.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: I love your story.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Keep crushing it.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: I know you guys are you're taking over the the marketing space as an accounting firm, so keep doing that.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, thank you so much for coming on here.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: No problem, man.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh this was this was fun.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of CFO Chronicles, the secrets behind success.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you found value in today's conversation.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things.
• 34:43
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• 34:47
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• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: It helps others discover the insights we share here.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Second, if you're ready to take your business to the next level and attract the high-end clients you deserve, head over to accountingleadsnow.com or click the link in the show notes to book your strategy call.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's time to position yourself as the advisor your clients need.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to stay up to date on what's happening in the world of accounting and financial growth.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've got exciting topics coming up, so stay tuned for the next episode of CFO Chronicles.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: Until then, keep pushing forward.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Your growth is just one strategic move away.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to CFO Chronicles, the secrets behind success.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: We hope today's episode provided valuable strategies to help you attract more high-paying clients.
• 35:36
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• 35:40
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• 35:45
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• 35:49
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