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#18 How to Bust Through Winter Blues: Tips from a Top CBT Expert · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

[00:00:00] I'm Dr. Sarah Olivo. And I'm Dr. Liz Seidler. And you're listening to College is Fine. Everything's Fine.Sarah, I'm really excited today. We have a blast from my past. We have Dr. Simon Rigo here. And I'm going to do an introduction, Simon, okay? I might be missing some things because your resume is quite long. But I'm going to give it a try. Okay, guys, Simon is the chief of psychology and director of psychology training at Montefiore medical center, which is located in the Bronx, New York city.He's a professor of psychiatry and payroll sciences at Albert Einstein college of medicine. And as part of Montefiore's physician leadership Academy, he's also licensed clinical psychologist for more than 25 years. and has experience using CBT and other evidence based therapies. His specialties include cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety disorders, depression, and insomnia.He's also the author of a [00:01:00] ton of fancy pants, scientific articles, textbook chapters, As well as his own books, one of which we hope to hear a little bit about today, the 10 step depression relief workbook. I had the privilege of working with him. He was a clinical director of my psychology internship and my supervisor.And I could spend this entire episode singing his praises, but want to make sure that he gets to share his own pearls of wisdom with us. Hello, Simon. Very generous introduction. So thank you. And I'm hoping to learn from the two of you as much as I share. I hope it's a conversation where we can all generate ideas that I think the college population can use material to help them.I so appreciate anyone that's making efforts to get the information out to this group. So. Kudos to you two for doing that. You were one of our top guests when we first started. We were like, oh, he'd be so great to come on. And, and I also, Liz, when you were reading Simon's bio, I was thinking the trickle down effect of how many therapists you've probably [00:02:00] trained, who have been trained therapists.There's a chance that some college students out there are actually seeing a therapist that you have directly trained in some way. Imagine the destruction I have caused this world. And you talked about, about guilt. I'm not the same person I was 20 years ago or 15 years ago. The beauty of where the field is, is it keeps growing and keeps changing and keeps evolving.And we're doing things today and using technologies today that we didn't have when I started training people. So I will sometimes actually worry a little bit about, oh, You know when a town gets, people emigrate from their home culture and then they grow in the culture of the art and they go home and it's a state that I hope that the field gets kept evolving and the people that we've worked with in the past are also staying up to date because a lot's changed, maybe we'll talk a bit about that.I do think you are passionate about the general population having access to treatments that work. Maybe you can define for our listeners what evidence based treatments means. [00:03:00] I think it's a great place to start, Liz, because it sounds, it almost sounds forensic, right? It almost sounds like you're in court and we're looking for evidence against you as a, as a person or as a person in need of help.It's a bit jargon y. Even though it seems clear in the field, it's really important to be clear what we're saying and what we're not saying. What we say with evidence based treatments is we've spent a great deal of time in the last half century or so taking a generic approach, which is just talking to someone for help and examining what ingredients in that conversation seem to be most helpful to people with particular conditions or at particular ages or in particular cultures, and a lot of work has been done to dismantle these conversations.and create approaches that we have tested to say, are these actually helpful? Can we distinguish them from just general talking to or other evidence [00:04:00] based approaches like medications and things like that? Does that make sense? Yes, it does. With that in mind, in terms of this term evidence based treatments, we want to talk a little bit about sadness.We know that it's pretty alarming, the rates of anxiety and depression amongst college students that's just been growing and growing even more post pandemic. And as we enter into the winter months, and now depending on where you are, you might be in sunny Miami for college. I do think that even in most parts of the country, people do experience a little bit of a dip in their mood during the next few months.And Sarah and I definitely see this with most of the college students we work with. Any thoughts, like best advice is for trying to like fend off the winter blues. What would be some tips that you would give to college students or things for them to be mindful of? Yeah, I think, I think the first thing you said is there's a pattern to it, right?The winter blues suggest a seasonal pattern. in people's lives when their moods change. And [00:05:00] so the first thing is, it's very helpful to know that and anticipate that this is coming. So that helps one prepare. If one can look at their own pattern and think about it. In terms of what I do, it's all about thoughts and behavioral patterns.So what works for one person may not work for everyone, but if we can say we know that there's a general trend in the winter months for people's mood to shift. So what changes is it for you if you're listening is the first thing to recognize what happens when the days get shorter and darker and colder and What in your life and patterns seems to shift would be very important to be aware of.Know yourself, know it's coming, and understand if you've got a history of this, what seems to be your vulnerabilities? Is it that your activities change, for example? Is it because it's colder? You're normally an outdoor person and now it's colder. So you don't do as much, or the physical activities you tend to [00:06:00] engage in are warm weather activities.So then we may think that a part of your recipe for warding off the winter blues would be to have an alternative in place that allows you to capitalize on the fact that you're an active person but can't do the typical activities in the winter months. What are you going to do instead? People might say it's darker earlier and darker later, it's dark all the time, that for whatever reason wears my mood down, but what's your antidote for that?Do you need something as simple as brighter lights? There are light boxes and there are materials that you can environmentally supplement what we're missing with the sun. Or is there something else in that darkness that's like, that's around it? When it's darker, other things happen. I notice my thoughts start to change, or I tend to be less social, or I tend to be more fatigued.Be a scientist with yourself and be curious about your own experience if there's a pattern there. And for a lot of us, there is. But then. If you can observe what your own pattern is in terms of what changes, you can get ahead of it and problem solve and put [00:07:00] things in place to at least help, hopefully protect you a little bit.As you were describing how your thoughts change, it popped into my head that when I'm driving home, maybe from work or an errand and it's 5. 30 and it's dark out, I have the thought like, the day's done, gotta get home. And I have to remind myself actively, wait, no, it's not, it's 530, but it is so instinctive.Like I just need to get home. It's that time. Is that what you mean as an example of thoughts changing? For sure. That's a great example because it's not like you consciously have to think that to yourself. It's triggered by the darker day. Your mind starts to write a script about what that means in the background while you're driving.And even if you're not fully aware of it, it can shape you. What you decide to do in that moment, the day is done, could make a person decide to head home instead of going to the gym, for example, or to head home instead of going to run whatever errand, get the groceries, go to the dry cleaner, [00:08:00] drop the mail off.And it seems like a little micro decision, but if you then have weeks or months of that, the net effect of making those micro decisions starts to weigh up. Now. I'm behind on my errands for some reason, or I haven't gone to the gym in a while for some reason. So accumulatively these thoughts that we start to develop in the background by something as general as a life change can start to impact our moods and our motivation and our energy and things of that nature.And that's the essence of what Liz hinted at earlier with CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy. It's paying attention to what we think about and what we do. In relation to our mood. So it sounds like the first step is to be aware of what might actually be changing during this period of time. And can I cope ahead for it?I hear this a lot from college students. They'll be like, I love running outside. I'm happier because I can go hiking and running. Winter sucks. And I can't do those things. I'm like, well, what are you going to do about it? That actually probably is a behavior that really helps your [00:09:00] mood. And now you don't have it for three to four months because you go to school in upstate New York.And then they're just willful about finding something different. And it makes sense that if that was enhancing your mood and then you no longer have a replacement behavior for it, that your mood is likely going to dip during that period of time without some more active problem solving. Yeah, and I might even get a prediction in there to be challenged as well, if you heard yourself.I don't have it for three or four months is a proclamation about the future, which is pretty severe and pretty categorically shifted to the negative, right? I, I love running. I'm upstate New York, and now that's being taken away for a quarter or third of a year. That's, that's, that'll impact me right now.If you say you're going to take away something I love for the next quarter of a year, whether it's true or not, I'm going to feel upset, frustrated, sad, annoyed, despondent about it today. The other thing I just want to [00:10:00] mention for the person who didn't always exercise in college is a lot of, I think what we're talking about is, and Liz, this is your phrase, I'm stealing from you, the diverse activity diet.So maybe for some people, exercise is what they predict will go away, but sometimes it's just that they start to narrow down in general what they're willing to do outside, whether it's because it's dark or because it's cold, and maybe they're less likely to go meet up with a friend, or maybe they're less likely to sit outside.When I was in school, I remember these guys would sit around and do like drum circles in the middle of this big cacophonous tunnel, and maybe that's someone's thing too. So, you know, they're not going to do that outside. So I just wanted to Think about the idea of when winter comes, we typically, whatever it is we're doing, whether it's exercise or some other things might narrow our focus.And so Simon, I liked what you said about predict and plan and supplement, not just with exercise, but all the different ways that we tend to be a bit more diverse in the warmer, longer days. Yeah, I love [00:11:00] that. I think it's like the bigger your toolkit, the more armed and ready you are for whatever repair work needs to be done.And if you don't have to use every tool every day, but knowing you've got identify tools that you can use when life presents situation X that's challenging, the more likely you'll be to manage it effectively. So I'm with you on that. And I think the challenge is when this is not something that's anticipated, but outside of our control disorder, you can't tell exactly when it's going to get to that tipping point of darkness and coldness.And what we can do is we know it's coming because this is the season and then being able to anticipate that. What do I have in my toolkit for when that happens? Helps us generally prepare. So Liz knows this, but I am from the South. And so for me, winter, when February comes, I'm like, where are the flowers?It's spring towards the end of February. I'm like, Valentine's day is done. So let's just get to the flowers. And it's taken me a lot of Liz talk about willfulness. I've had to [00:12:00] really figure out my winter plan up here because it hits me hard. And I actually know now that it tends to hit me hard in February because that's in my mind.When it's supposed to be warm, it's supposed to start warming up when it's April and it's still chilly or rainy. I know. Okay. In March and April, those are actually the months where I need to figure something else out. I actually have a lot of people who showed me the ways and said running outside in the cold is something you can do.And for a long time, I was like, no, I'm just, no, I will not. I am not a cold weather person. I'm inside. I'm embracing, what do they call it? Like Higa, like the comfort fire, the bourbon. And it turns out. I love running in the cold. I love it. There's something about it that makes it go a little quicker, you feel a bit more energized, and I don't sweat.It's fantastic. So, there you go, I guess. Have an open mind. Sierra, if I may, there's a couple of nuggets in there that are really important for people listening. This is what I mean about going from the general to the specific. Your history, [00:13:00] where you grew up, followed you here. And we wouldn't know that by looking at you, that you anticipate your spring is February, whereas up here it's different.So our histories follow us. When we go to college, we don't leave our stuff in the hometowns where we are. Our family history, our biological history, our genetic makeup, our life events, all pack up and come with us. But we're in a new setting and a new context with new people around. We may not even realize that the arm's kind of reaching from back home, or from the family.And that's, in yours, it's about spring, but for other people it could be events they've faced as young adults growing up. And the lessons learned, or the conclusions people have drawn about themselves, can unfortunately come along for the ride, and start to set up camp, and start to whisper in your ear metaphorically about what you can and can't do, and what you should or shouldn't do.And that's what we mean when we talk about the cognitive part of a cognitive behavioral therapy or the thoughts. Those are all versions of thoughts, the monologues that we have in our head, the predictions we make, the anticipations [00:14:00] that we have. Those are really, really important for your audience to pay attention to.And all too often they're just whispering in the background and we, we may not pay full attention to them until occasions when they jump up, but often they're just. influencing us subtly. You're not going to enjoy this until you try it. That's the other piece. If you can become a good scientist, at least test out what you're saying, at least be willing to give it a shot.Let's see, let the data decide. You go out for one run. And if you don't like that, you realize that's not your thing. What else you got? What other tools do you have? But what if it is, what if all this time your mind told you no, but the world's going to give you a yes. It's important to be able to figure that out about yourself and not listen to predictions up front.So assuming college students might not have time to read your book, which is called The 10 Step Depression Relief Book, for those of you who might want to read it, what would you pull from it for students who might feel they're either dipping their toe into depression? And then maybe a follow up can be, if it's not just dipping their toe in, what would [00:15:00] you recommend?For sure, and it's a great question. The quicker we, and, and earlier we can see our moods shifting, I think the more power we have to turn them into a different direction. I'm, again, I'm prone to looking at thoughts and behavioral patterns. That's my foundation. There are other things people can do, but as a start.I think those are the two big spheres for people to look at. I think it's easier when you're busy, especially if you're in college, you're reading all the time. It's probably easier to focus on your actions or inaction. Cognitive side, the thought side requires sitting down and examining the patterns and how you think about things and capturing them and going through some exercises to rethink them.And we can talk that through. But to answer your question, I think the easier solution for a lot of people, the low intensity. More readily implemented intervention is something called BA or behavioral activation, which is jargon. [00:16:00] It's clinical mumbo jumbo to say, if I had to bet the farm, I would bet You can do this with me, either of you, Liz or Sarah.You call me up and say, my mood has been dipping. I'm going down into a low mood. And I have to bet the farm on whether you have been inside your place or outside of your place. Thanks. Are you in your apartment or house or outside of it if your mood is going down? I'm so in and I'm not leaving. And if you're inside your place, are you being social or are you not being social?If your mood is tipping. Not returning texts, definitely. And not actively texting anybody. If you are inside your place and not actively being social, And I had to really narrow it down. And I had to get bedding the farm. Are you sitting around or are you moving around in your place? Are you in your bedroom or you're outside of your bedroom?Simon, I have this fuzzy thing that as a present, I actually got from my mom, but I decided I wanted it. And it's [00:17:00] like a blanket with the hood and sleeves. So I'm going to be in that. You're in your cozy onesie. And that's what people tend to do either in relation to their mood tipping or as a result.Either driving it or being driven by it is altered the behavioral patterns that typically bring into our lives the very things that raise it. And it's chicken or the egg. Is it my mood's dipped so I stopped doing those things or is it because I stopped doing those things my mood dipped or both? We don't, in CBT, we don't care.Because we just know one is connected. What you do impacts how you feel. And how you feel impacts what you do. And if you don't like the way you feel, you look at what you're doing or not doing when you don't like the way you feel and you start to play with those things. So we have a chapter in the book.It's a book I co wrote with a woman named Sarah Fader. And she's great. She has, she's got her own organization called Stigma Fighters, which is to Help advocate for the, to destigmatize mental health [00:18:00] in the population, because unfortunately, and maybe in your listeners, it's still there. Unfortunately, there's still stigma around mental health, not being health and mental health is health.Just because we can't see it just because there's no cast or crutches. People think it's somehow different or weaker. Mental health is health. So, in the book, Sarah and I tried to target very simple steps. And one chapter is about this behavioral activation. Looking at the little things you can do, doesn't have to be major things, to bring activity back in your life.With the presumption being, as we ran through my little quiz, Chances are, I may be wrong sometimes, but chances are when people are dipping their toe into lower mood, behavioral patterns have shifted. They're not doing the things that bring them as much pleasure or accomplishment or mastery anymore. And maybe it's weather driven.Maybe it's you got COVID and you had to, you, you'd lost energy for a little while. Maybe it's exams threw you off for a while. It can be a variety of factors, but we know you change your behavioral [00:19:00] patterns. It makes your mood vulnerable. So I long winded answer to say is like start. looking at or listing for yourself the things that you no longer do that.you used to do that give you a sense of pleasure, you like doing them, that can be silly things, that can be unproductive things, watching whatever the latest television drama is or rom com that you've been meaning to get to, but it can also be and it should be balanced with things that give you a sense of accomplishment when they're done.Smaller me, I may not enjoy doing it but I'll feel good about myself once I've done it. And some things are good, you get Now exercise for me is I actually like doing it. And after I've done, I use Strava, and it tells me I've set a personal record for a quarter mile, and there's, there's, anyone who runs the same, there's leaderboards, a group's king of this route, so I get reinforced, and I get tracked and see my time's changing, and that's an accomplishment, but it also feels less stressful and mood enhancing, [00:20:00] we know this about exercise.It doesn't have to be high intensity exercise, more activity, better mood to generalize. It sounds like, okay, if we were to like summarize, pay attention to what you're doing. And if you notice that what you're doing is not helping your mood, then maybe you need to switch things up. And the two categories of activities are adding more things that give you a sense of enjoyment.And then doing things that give you a sense of mastery or accomplishment. Yeah. You get a little adrenaline rush, right? Afterwards when you do something you accomplish, but I have found that that's one of the hardest things to convince. People, when I'm talking with them and I get it, cause it's so hard when you're already feeling a little bit low to take off the fuzzy onesie and to get out.And so I feel like my task is always to try to convince people. Sometimes you have to act happier and more energetic in order to feel happier and more energetic. And so many people, I think, just wait to feel it first, wait for it to kind of naturally shift. So I like that you were able to give some ideas for how to get past and maybe you can give more.So [00:21:00] one, and this is something I use, I had like a true crime podcast on the ready or some sort of book that just feels so silly, but I allow myself to listen to those things when I'm doing something that's so fun. Do you have any other cheat sheet ways to get people past that, that like initial push to get out the door?Absolutely. Yeah, the and you've hit on a really important point, which is something for people to be aware of that I find surprises people every time I have this conversation. There's a belief, it seems that people think that motivation precedes action. That's the way it works. I feel motivated, then I do something, it's unidirectional, I wait for my motivation, then I go off and I do it.Whereas if you really think about your life, and I encourage people to think about this, we usually get motivation through action. Action actually primes motivation and then it becomes bi directional. And I use the gym as an example. Have you ever, if you've finished your workout, you say, Oh, I feel so unmotivated for having just worked [00:22:00] out for four different, what a waste.I don't want to work out again tomorrow. That was useless. Or do you actually, when does it start to click in? Versus right before you're going to go home, you got to think about going to the gym or bring your gym bag, get changed, do the stretching. But afterwards people's motivation is almost usually much higher.Okay. And that's the thing with most tasks is if you can start them and then see what your motivation is like, you get some of that way. And one trick to that is some, is it actually an Eastern concept called Kaizen, which is to take big pieces, big things and break them into little smaller chunks, right?So if your mind is telling you, no, you've made too big a commitment to yourself. So why not reduce, reduce, reduce, reduce, reduce, reduce until you say that I can do start and then see what happens to your motivation. And for me, Based off your example, I might say, what happens to my motivation? In the context of where I am right now, if I'm sitting in my comfy, one piece, fuzzy, warm, cozy [00:23:00] on the couch in the nice warm living room or bedroom, wherever it is watching my show with my snacks beside me, there's not just one motivation.There's multiple motivations going up. There's motivation to exercise because you've thought of it, but there's also the motivation to nap, motivation to watch television, motivation to go on your smartphone, motivation to snack. So can I do something environmentally? To make the motivation that I'm most concerned about rise.And you can compare the two with Kaizen and that by saying, okay, here's my deal. All I'm agreeing to is to change into my workout outfit and stand on the other side of my door. That's what I do. And let's see how my motivation is when I'm not in my comfies, but when I'm in my. Workout gear, or when I'm not inside the threshold of my house, but on the outside of the threshold of my house, or I've got my power song on my, I got, or my podcast or whatever it is, and that's playing, does it shift?There's still probably motivation to sit on the couch in my comfies, or watch television, or [00:24:00] nap, or snack, but by changing the context in which I'm having this conversation with myself, Can I stack the deck to having the right motivation rise, in this case to exercise, right? But it might be socializing, right?Oh, it's too cold, I'm not going to have fun, I don't want to see Liz doesn't want to go and visit Sarah, Sarah doesn't want to go and visit Liz, so we cancel. But how many times, hopefully this is true, have you gotten together, and once you've gotten together, you say, ah, I'm so glad we did this, and the cold becomes a minor piece of the story, right?If you reduce the things into small pieces and then change the context, you make a deal. Don't have this conversation with yourself in bed, in your comfies, lying down. You'll lose. Your commitment is simple and small. Just commit to changing and getting out the front door and seeing what happens. I love that we could spend a lot of time but talking about like barriers to treatment and we know that there's like a college counseling center crisis, they don't have enough resources getting access to mental health care.And I don't think this is unique just to the college student population. I also [00:25:00] know that you're an avid social media user. And I'm always amazed when I look at your Twitter, how you see all of these articles and share them. And I know that there's about is using social media as a tool to spread the word.So any thoughts about any trends you've seen around there or thinking about college students who really are much more savvy than we are with social media and what place does social media have in terms. Clinicians even, like how can we use this as a tool to spread the word about what CBT and other science backed therapies are, and how could it maybe ease some of the barriers to accessible care?Yeah, that's a great question, and I could fill up the rest of our time trying to answer that, so stop me if I'm going on too long. I get excited about these things and it pours out, so apologies for curtailing your agenda. Digital, the digitization of our treatments and the admin. [00:26:00] Tele connections in the pandemic has really created some opportunities, I think, for the bottlenecking that are taking place in college counseling centers and clinics in, in college campuses, where there are real challenges to getting in and there's privacy issues that people have and scheduling issues.So there's still a lot of work to be done in terms of the way telehealth works, but for people listening, they should know that there's been a big pendulum swing towards people. At least within state, often providing care to people that aren't necessarily a short driving distance away. We can do this more readily, especially in top therapy where we don't need any much equipment.We don't need labs and devices. We can do the same thing through things like Zoom. So there's a increasing number of mental health providers that are, if not entirely pivoting Making their practices available online to certain having a portion of them available online, which opens up [00:27:00] the doors to access, it's not a perfect solution because there's still costs and insurance issues and then state lines and where people can practice.And often, unfortunately, still people might live in one part of the country when they're at home and then between semesters and then live in another part where they're in school. So there's things to be worked out, but I'm very excited about where we can go in terms of access in that way. And then a lot of the more recent advances in psychological treatments have lent themselves very nicely to be delivered through things like apps and online programs.It depends on your motivation to follow them as instructed, but if one has the internal motivation to asynchronously access the program, you can do it at your own time, on your own hours, based on your own schedule. And the components. Have been shown to be effective and the program itself has been shown to be effective They're at often low cost because now it's not relying on paying a licensed provider to do it It's been developed by licensed [00:28:00] providers and experts But that's the magic kicking that way you have access when you want it to a treatment that's been well studied and shown To be have an impact on whatever your thing is that you can get At your convenience.That's really cool Cool. And, and I think that's where we're going. But the downside is, and this is social media, is that for someone who's listening, who doesn't know the field, it can be overwhelming. And unfortunately, it's not so well regulated. And there are a lot of people who have rushed into the space because they know that's what the digital natives are, not us digital immigrants that are trying to figure it out.And So what do you do? First of all, I don't trust any one person, even myself. I tell my own people who come, if you came to see me today, I'd say, before you sign up for me, please, I'm going to assign you to do a little homework. And I want you to Google scholar is a part of Google that looks at research.I want you to Google for me, cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavior therapy or acceptance and commitment therapy. [00:29:00] And look at what the research says is helpful. Don't look at a person, look at what that person says they're doing. Go to the National Institute of Mental Health or to a reputable website that's unbiased and not commercialized and see what they say works.And for people who may not know this, there's a, the biggest foundation in the United States for psychologists called the American Psychological Association and it has these divisions. Division 12 is the Society for Clinical Psychology and within that website, for that division, they have a subsection of psychological treatments that work.So you can go on that, and you can look at either, I think I have depression, here's a summary of what we think is helpful, or here's a treatment, here's the conditions that it's shown to be helpful for. You can look by condition, or you can look by treatment, and it's updated as new evidence comes in.It'll tell you if a page is under revisions, because it's looking at depression. And it gives you levels of [00:30:00] confidence in the treatments that are listed. And then there's a similar one for children and adolescents for Division 53 of the American Psychological Association is the Division of Child and Adolescent Psychology, and they do something similar, including short videos for parents, for family members with kids.And there's others online that are non partial that tell you directly, here's what we can say. Personal testimony sounds so compelling and that's what social media does. The advice I give is to step back from the personal story and then place that in the context of what the research says, and you can do that.Thank goodness. Now it is quite easily from your PC. If you're going to buy a new laptop, you spend hours on that. And how often do people just say, I'll take the first mental health provider that I could find. I encourage people to really think about, there's enough there now. Resources. That are well done, that you can place a person and [00:31:00] Google them to find out what's their brand like online.If they're on ZocDoc or a place that rates providers, what are people saying about their service? So it's important to quality check proclamations being made in the era of social media. Especially when, again, when they seem too good to be true. There's no easy, mental health is tough. And even though there's books and apps and programs, it starts and ends with a willingness to actually change what you're doing.Can I say the hokey joke that we say in ouryou guys probably know this, but to your listeners, they're gonna hate this. They're gonna go, gosh, why'd you bring this guy on? But how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? You know this one? How many? One. But the light bulb has to want to change.Ah. I like it. I, of course, love that joke. I can't do a thing for anyone who comes in my office if they don't have a willingness to believe and try to think or do things differently. Expand their [00:32:00] toolbox. We can say we have vetted Simon and, and I think, I hope people leave today, like any skepticism they have about CBT or a lack of knowledge or awareness that it's provided some information and maybe some curiosity about this being something that they can pay attention to, particularly like we talked about specifically around the winter blues or thinking about sadness, Simon, we need your fast five questions.What's the dialectic you've dealt with recently? I'll give you one. I'm trying to maintain some level of fitness and conditioning. I'm staying in shape and I, my goodness, I have a sweet tooth. And it's pumpkin pie and pecan pie. Now, Van Leeuwen ice cream shop has just put this limited, they have, I'm not making this up right now.You can get a pint of macaroni and cheese ice cream from Van Leeuwen. I saw that. I almost barked. Yeah. Guess who bought one? Guess who? [00:33:00] Along with, along with that limited, limited, limited, I, I have about a, These crates come on dry ice and my and Okay, so I you do have a sweet tooth you do have a sweet tooth and I want to stay in shape.There's my dial Yeah, that's a good one. I think a lot of people can relate to that Sorry, i'm not ready. You're not ready. You're still I was too busy Mini bombing over the idea of the mac and cheese ice cream. Okay. What song do you listen to cheer you up? Get a winter blues pump song, your power song that you get to run to.I love music. So in general, it's hard to come up. If I had to have an answer, it's old, but I like hip hop. I listened to a lot of hip hop to pump me up. It's the one that came to mind is I'm Not Afraid from Relapse. His CD Relapse, which is probably now 12 years old. There's a generation of people that may not have listened to that, but that's my, my favorite.Pump up some. Okay. A [00:34:00] time, a time. You recently failed at something Simon, like 10 minutes ago. We're giving you too long an answers. . I brace my failure as a, as a clinician and as a person. I failed As a parent, I failed as a husband, I, I probably failed by honking at someone in traffic. Today I didn't quite get the 5K time I wanted yesterday when I was running.How many do you want, or what scope do you need? We were good with just one, but thanks for the laundry list! Our listeners might already know the answer to this question, given some of our conversation today, but what's your favorite way to cope? My favorite way to cope? Yeah, I'm, uh, I think I'd combine the two.My whole life, I've turned to music. Music is my mood enhancer. And then, my whole life, I've been a runner. So, I activate myself, and I pair the two. A lot of people can run without music, but I keep just Mindfully appreciate their surroundings. I need my Joggin Jams 2022 Summer Edition is what's on my [00:35:00] playlist right now, which is a mixture of hardcore hip hop and alt rock, with a little sprinkling of other stuff, which is followed right after by my slow jam, slow down, cool off mix of love songs and sappy.Ballads that you're romantic. We we did interview a college band and they let us know that you can do this thing on Spotify where you like follow people and see what they're listening to at all times. And I've been a little too terrified to share that. I feel like it's like sharing my location services.I don't know. It's I feel like it's like too private, but we already got the list from you, Simon, so I don't need to follow you. Okay. Last one. Favorite mental health resource. This might be hard to narrow down. It could be a book, podcast. We have speakers come every week to the hospital to present on different areas.And we had a person come about a month and a half ago, a guy named David Spiegel, who's a psychiatrist out on the West coast, [00:36:00] and he's, he's written books and his large portion of his career is on hypnosis and he's co founder of an app called Reverie, which is a self hypnosis app. I don't get any kickbacks for saying this, but you asked me.So that's what it comes to mind. Reverie is a freebie version that you can start with R E V E R I E. And it's really cool. Like one minute self hypnosis instructions. You can use for everything from pain management to. living a less stressful life to breaking it. Love it. Sarah and I hope that in this episode you left with some tools that you can use to fight off any dips in your mood that might happen during the winter months.Pay attention to our social media. Sarah and I will be sharing some ways in which we are trying to do this too. [00:37:00] Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories and their advice. This podcast is for college students and we want input by college students. So please reach out by text, email, or voice memo to colleges find podcast at gmail.com or nine to nine 500 2231. Tell us your story, give us tips on topics you'd like to hear, or give us feedback about an episode. Follow us on Tik at colleges find podcasts for episode announcements and resources. And last but not least, if you enjoyed today's episode, So please subscribe to the podcast.Every hit of that plus button helps us keep going.