Latest / The Restaurant Guys / Milk Punch, Cocktail Culture, and the Art of Hospitality | Eamon Rockey

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Milk Punch, Cocktail Culture, and the Art of Hospitality | Eamon Rockey · The Restaurant Guys

0:42
Hello everybody and welcome.
0:43
You are listening to the Restaurant Guys.
0:45
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shop.
0:47
Together we own stage left at For Lombardi Restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
0:52
We are here to bring you the inside track on food.
0:53
the-restaurant-guys_1_02-25-2026_124547: Wine and the finer things in life.
0:55
MIC1: Hello there, mark.
0:56
MIC1: Hey there, Francis.
0:57
MIC1: How are you?
0:57
MIC1: I'm great.
0:58
MIC1: Thank you very much.
0:59
MIC1: I'm excited for our guest today, our old friend.
1:01
MIC1: Amen.
1:02
MIC1: Rocky is gonna be on the show.
1:04
MIC1: He's got a lot of cool stuff to talk about, but, uh, what do you have to talk about now?
1:07
MIC1: You look like you got something on your mind.
1:08
MIC1: I have two little restaurant stories that happened to me both this week.
1:12
MIC1: Ooh, okay, good.
1:13
MIC1: Okay.
1:13
MIC1: And the first one is kind of I should have expected.
1:16
MIC1: Okay.
1:17
MIC1: And the second one is, uh, how the hell did that happen?
1:20
MIC1: Okay.
1:20
MIC1: Okay.
1:21
MIC1: So the first one, you know that my friends and I go to this bowling alley down in Trenton, little petite bowling alley.
1:29
MIC1: Yes.
1:29
MIC1: Petite bowling alley.
1:30
MIC1: And we go and we have some drinks and we bowl for six or seven hours.
1:35
MIC1: Yes.
1:35
MIC1: I've, I've occasionally bowled with you there.
1:37
MIC1: Yeah.
1:37
MIC1: Mm-hmm.
1:37
MIC1: Okay.
1:38
MIC1: I made a huge mistake.
1:40
MIC1: I I, I bet it's not the only mistake that's made at that bowling alley.
1:43
MIC1: But, but, but, but go right ahead.
1:46
MIC1: You know, I get visions of, uh, paradise by the dashboard.
1:48
MIC1: Light in my head in the parking lot of the bowling alley.
1:50
MIC1: Didn't, I didn't think it was that kind of mistake.
1:51
MIC1: I didn't think so.
1:52
MIC1: Go ahead.
1:52
MIC1: I
1:53
MIC2: went
1:54
MIC1: into the bar and I
1:54
MIC2: you know what?
1:55
MIC2: I'm not gonna drink beer.
1:56
MIC1: Today was a mistake, by the way.
1:58
MIC2: That's a whole different
1:59
MIC1: story.
1:59
MIC1: We're not gonna, well, because you didn't swap it for milk.
2:04
MIC1: That reminds me of the joke that I, it is the old dad joke.
2:06
MIC1: I'm like, I go to the, the bar and I'm like, uh, excuse me.
2:09
MIC1: Do you have any Skimm chocolate milk?
2:10
MIC1: And they're like, no.
2:11
MIC1: I'm like, well, I said, have a whiskey.
2:13
MIC1: I, I tried, I tried to be good.
2:17
MIC1: So what was your mistake?
2:18
MIC1: So, I Go into the bar and I
2:19
MIC2: walk around the
2:20
MIC1: bar
2:20
MIC2: So I see all the bottles they have.
2:23
MIC2: I see some Jameson.
2:24
MIC1: Yeah,
2:25
MIC2: I see some Buffalo Trace Uhhuh One bottle.
2:27
MIC2: Uhhuh And I see nothing else that I would, that I would like to drink Uhhuh.
2:31
MIC2: Okay.
2:31
MIC2: Just off brands.
2:32
MIC2: and, Okay.
2:33
MIC2: I say, Hey, can I get a Buffalo Trace Old Fashioned?
2:38
MIC1: Oh, I know what you did.
2:40
MIC2: One of the most common drinks currently ordered,
2:43
MIC1: right?
2:44
MIC2: Yes.
2:44
MIC2: Yes.
2:44
MIC2: One of the hottest drinks ordered I'm
2:46
MIC1: and has been a drink in ordering.
2:49
MIC1: Not like, didn't disappear and come back with a cocktail revolution like when we were bartenders in 1986.
2:55
MIC1: If someone ordered an old fashioned might have been slightly different, but we could have made it.
2:58
MIC2: And I had told my friend, Anthony, I'm gonna order an old fashioned today and I'm gonna get one of those little red fake cherries.
3:04
MIC2: Yes, yes.
3:04
MIC2: I'm Ready?
3:05
MIC2: I'm ready for that.
3:05
MIC1: would assume you would.
3:06
MIC1: Yes.
3:07
MIC2: What I was not ready for was.
3:10
MIC2: Yeah, we can't make that.
3:14
MIC2: That's great.
3:15
MIC2: I said, I said Yes Jessica, are, Are you in 1986?
3:19
MIC2: Are you in 1986 or 2026.
3:22
MIC1: So did what did, was it legit?
3:23
MIC1: Did they not have the bidders?
3:24
MIC2: So what I, so you know, I, the next question I asked right, is, yep.
3:29
MIC2: Do you have bitters?
3:31
MIC2: Do you know what the response I got?
3:32
MIC2: What?
3:32
MIC2: No, we don't have those.
3:35
MIC2: And I said, okay then.
3:37
MIC2: And I drank Buffalo trace on the rocks for the, the rest of the
3:40
MIC1: day.
3:41
MIC1: It reminds me of our friend Audrey Saunders, who we've known for, and she, uh, used to own the Pegu Club.
3:48
MIC1: She was a very important person in the cocktail world.
3:51
MIC1: But back when cocktails were, you know, uh, uh, the Renaissance was just beginning.
3:56
MIC1: Yeah.
3:57
MIC1: and I love this, she carried little bottles of Angus or Bitters in her purse for just such an
4:04
MIC2: will tell you that next year when we do this, event,'cause we do it every year, I will have Angus store Bitters and I'll be like, oh, that's okay.
4:11
MIC1: And they, they like put a little sugar in the thing and give it to me.
4:15
MIC1: Yeah.
4:16
MIC1: But well, she used to do it because we
4:17
MIC2: places I may bring my own simple syrup.
4:19
MIC2: I I may.
4:19
MIC2: I may be, do go all the way.
4:21
MIC1: I think you should.
4:22
MIC1: Well, she used to do it because, people would often have stale, bitter bidders.
4:26
MIC1: Oh.
4:26
MIC1: Like they opened the bottle of bitters five years ago and it was,
4:29
MIC2: I, I have a great story we need to get to.
4:31
MIC2: So we gotta, we gotta Move on.
4:32
MIC1: I'm, I'm done.
4:33
MIC2: Alright.
4:34
MIC2: So the next story and, and you were in the office when this happened, so you're not gonna be totally surprised.
4:39
MIC2: But I think our guests are gonna be totally surprised.
4:42
MIC2: Okay.
4:43
MIC2: So as you know, my favorite uncle passed away and we had his rep
4:47
MIC1: Yes.
4:47
MIC2: Yes.
4:48
Mark: And so we were organizing the repass and Julie who works for us.
4:52
Mark: was handling it for me'cause she's, great.
4:55
MIC1: oh.
4:55
Mark: we go through, pick the menu.
4:56
Mark: We do the whole thing.
4:57
Mark: They ask for a deposit.
4:58
Mark: Julie responds, how do you want me to pay the deposit?
5:00
MIC1: respond by email.
5:01
MIC1: By
5:01
MIC2: email.
5:02
MIC2: So there's an email chain.
5:04
MIC2: Okay?
5:04
MIC2: Right now we can't take credit cards.
5:06
MIC2: Can you Zelle or do an A CH?
5:08
MIC1: And we thought, that's strange.
5:10
MIC1: But I go,
5:10
MIC2: Absolutely.
5:11
MIC2: I thought, ah, they're playing some monkey business.
5:14
MIC2: Maybe they're trying to take some cash outta their business What, what kind of nonsense is happening?
5:18
MIC2: here?
5:18
MIC2: Yeah.
5:18
MIC2: But I'm like, you know, I just want to get this done.
5:21
MIC2: So I set up Zelle in my, my account, and I zelle$1,500 deposit.
5:27
MIC2: It fails.
5:27
MIC2: So the next day Julie gets a, another message from the same person
5:31
MIC1: another email.
5:32
MIC2: Another email says, didn't go.
5:34
MIC2: through.
5:34
MIC1: And you're like, what's wrong with this Mickey Mouse operation?
5:36
MIC1: what's
5:37
MIC2: wrong with this?
5:37
MIC2: thing?
5:37
MIC2: Exactly.
5:38
MIC2: So I email, again, I set up the Zelle.
5:43
MIC2: I send it at the same moment, somebody else who's helping me book the place, who lives out in Long Island, where the place is, says, I just got a text from, my friend says, you're not responding You're not responding to'em funding the deposit.
5:56
MIC2: well, I, I keep trying to Zelle, but it's not going through.
5:59
MIC2: so she's like, oh, let me get to her on the phone.
6:02
MIC2: So we do a three-way phone call now with Amanda from the restaurant I'm trying to book.
6:05
MIC2: And I say, well, my Z's not going through the woman's like Zelle, I never asked you to.
6:09
MIC2: Zelle.
6:10
MIC2: Yeah.
6:10
MIC1: Yeah.
6:11
MIC1: Yeah.
6:11
MIC2: I Never.
6:12
MIC2: asked you to Zelle.
6:13
MIC2: So, so what happened?
6:15
MIC2: Okay, so now we go down to the nitty gritty of what happened.
6:19
MIC2: Somebody had invaded her email.
6:22
MIC2: And Got themself into the email chain.
6:25
MIC1: Right.
6:25
MIC1: So they had to be watching her traffic this scam?
6:28
MIC1: Absolutely.
6:28
MIC1: Yeah.
6:28
MIC1: Yeah.
6:29
Mark: For this scam so that they could intercept my deposit for this event.
6:35
Mark: I have never seen or heard of anything that.
6:38
Mark: before.
6:38
Mark: never Where They actually got into the email chain and you were saying inside job, but then when I Googled the first email address of where they wanted me to send first Zelle, and then there was a phone number where they wanted me to Zelle the second time when I did the research on those.
6:56
Mark: They were known scam emails and, and phone numbers.
6:59
MIC1: So that's a, so beware everybody.
7:00
MIC1: There's a new scam out there that's way more sophisticated.
7:04
MIC1: 'cause you think you're okay.
7:05
MIC1: I'm already in this email chain with
7:07
MIC2: We've picked a menu.
7:07
MIC2: We've chosen a menu with this person.
7:09
MIC2: We're there, we're in discourse.
7:11
MIC2: There's no question.
7:12
MIC2: That this is the right person.
7:13
MIC2: Right.
7:14
MIC2: This is the, the party professional.
7:16
MIC2: That's her email.
7:17
MIC2: and it's coming from her email
7:18
MIC1: and I think we're pretty sophisticated and attuned to that sort of stuff.
7:22
MIC1: And uh, we were caught with our pants down.
7:25
MIC1: We, because you sent the money, it's, Zelle must have blocked it because
7:29
MIC2: okay, so Zelle blocked, the first one.
7:30
MIC2: 'cause it was a known spammer.
7:32
MIC2: The second one.
7:34
MIC2: Yeah.
7:34
MIC2: I get off the phone with this woman.
7:36
the-restaurant-guys_2_02-25-2026_125706: from the restaurant.
7:37
MIC2: I call my bank, I cancel the Zelle, 15 minutes later Julie gets another email from the scammer saying, Hey, I see that your Zelle is pending, but it, I can't make it go through.
7:51
MIC2: Wow.
7:51
MIC2: So I was 15 minutes away from losing a 1500
7:54
MIC1: Wow.
7:55
MIC1: By the hair of your chiney chin chin
7:56
MIC2: chin.
7:56
MIC2: So listen, it could happen to anybody, even a genius like me.
8:01
MIC1: No, I, that is, I have to, that's a whole, that's a whole new category of scam.
8:07
MIC1: Yeah.
8:07
MIC1: And, uh, so be careful out there, you know, and you're in an email chain and I think the thing to do is to verify if you're talking on the phone, the email of the
8:14
MIC2: I think I'm never using Zelle or a CH
8:17
MIC1: Yeah, yeah.
8:17
MIC2: Done.
8:18
MIC2: Done.
8:18
MIC1: done.
8:18
MIC1: Well that, that's the thing you remember out there with credit cards, you have a recourse with, with Aach H payments, you don't.
8:23
MIC1: Well,
8:23
MIC2: that's but how crazy is, that a, a restaurant owner.
8:25
MIC2: I'm a restaurant owner.
8:27
MIC2: And this happened to me.
8:29
MIC1: Yeah.
8:29
MIC1: It's nutty.
8:30
MIC2: So close.
8:31
MIC1: Well, uh, on that cheery note, I think we're gonna take a quick break.
8:35
MIC1: We did.
8:35
MIC1: It is a cheer
8:36
MIC2: a cheer note.
8:36
MIC2: I got my 1500 bucks.
8:37
MIC2: escape.
8:38
MIC1: We escaped.
8:38
MIC1: All right.
8:38
MIC1: Well let's talk to Aon Rocky.
8:40
MIC1: We'll be back in just a moment.
8:41
MIC1: You're listening to the restaurant guys, of course.
8:43
MIC1: And you can always find out more about I'll sit restaurant guys podcast.com.
8:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Hey there everybody.
8:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Welcome back.
8:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Today our guest is our dear friend, amen Rocky.
8:51
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: He was a captain at 11 Madison Park.
8:54
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: When we met him, that was when they were on their rise to being seen as one of the best restaurants in the world.
8:59
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: He went on to serve as general manager of Betony in New York, running the city's best fine dining restaurant at the time.
9:06
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And Mark, in my opinion, if you missed it, I'm sorry for you.
9:08
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: If you didn't, you know it don't lie.
9:11
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: He perfected there a recipe for milk punch that had been lost to the mists of time that went on to take over the cocktail world.
9:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: He was director of beverage studies at the Institute for Culinary Education.
9:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And if that weren't enough, he went on to launch his own spirits brand.
9:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: What began as Rockey's milk Punch evolved into Rockey's Botanical, and now he's out there on the road in bars across America in the cocktail culture of the country.
9:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And today he joins us on the restaurant.
9:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Guys, Amon Rocky, welcome to the show.
9:39
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Thrilled to be here, mark and Francis
9:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We are, we are, uh, drinking on the show today.
9:45
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So this is a new thing.
9:46
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Whenever we have somebody who produces a spirit where that we like, we're gonna, well, I said if you don't, if we don't like it, you're not on the show.
9:52
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So if they, we have someone on who produces a spirit, we make a cocktail.
9:55
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So we're making with Rockey's botanical a Rockey's garden, and we will put the recipe up on the, in the show notes for if you wanna.
10:03
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So I need to tell our listeners.
10:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
10:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So wait.
10:06
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: First you need to toast.
10:06
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Cheers.
10:07
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
10:07
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You're here.
10:08
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Cheers.
10:10
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Amen.
10:10
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You have the same drink where you are or something similar.
10:13
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: not have all the ingredients to make
10:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's delicious.
10:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's.
10:17
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: want you to know, I noticed and appreciated you're using a Mali bar syrup of some sort and so, right.
10:25
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, which I have not had the pleasure of trying.
10:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I would love to try it.
10:27
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, but I, I've got Rockey's in the rocks just, just for funsies.
10:31
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But in your Honor, I'm, I'm also drinking, uh, a delicious Indian tea.
10:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Ooh, very nice.
10:38
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: that was given to me as a gift, uh, years ago, uh, at the Indian Consulate of all places.
10:43
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So it feels like really special, you know?
10:46
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So while you're having a cocktail with Mal Bar Lur, I'm having the Indian Tea on my side
10:51
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Well, we have to tell the side story of just that Mali bar is invented by another friend of ours, an Indian American guy named Michael Rodericks, whose family is from Goa.
11:00
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And his family distills spirits in Goa and he makes Mali Bar here in the United States.
11:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And it's a spiced liqueur and it's delicious, great cocktail ingredient.
11:08
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, uh, so, and it marries perfectly with the Rockey's right here.
11:11
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: This is a drink of all of our friends make stuff and put it in a drink.
11:14
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That's what we do.
11:14
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So our listeners generally know that when we try and have a good show all the time.
11:20
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right?
11:20
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But the best shows are with people we know.
11:23
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm.
11:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And the very best shows are with people we are very good friends with.
11:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So I'm really pleased that, amen's on the show with us today, uh, because we are indeed dear friends.
11:35
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I think the bar is set pretty high now.
11:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I'll do my best not to Disappoint.
11:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
11:39
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: There we go.
11:39
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: you.
11:40
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So let's, yeah.
11:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So don't suck, please.
11:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So let's talk about, um, when we first met and we'll do a little bit on history.
11:49
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I, I wanna talk about the contemporary cocktail world with you because I think you've got a pretty unique perspective.
11:56
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Uh, and we come from a similar place.
11:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And so we met you when you were a captain on the floor at, uh, 11 Madison.
12:03
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Our friend Corey, was behind the bar at that time, uh, and he now owns his own liquor store out in, in Red Hook, called wet Whistle Wines.
12:11
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It's an extraordinary store.
12:12
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's great.
12:13
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's a great store.
12:13
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Great store.
12:14
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: If you're out in, if you're out in Red Lake, it's, it's a great, yeah.
12:16
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So you, you did that and then you went on to open Betony and I I, we, I do wanna spend a little bit of time on Betony.
12:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: 'cause we knew you, we knew each other.
12:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We were friendly.
12:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We respected each other as people in the business.
12:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But you were GM of this restaurant that came out of nowhere.
12:31
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I will tell you the first time I walked in there and I went,'cause I, you know, you were the gm.
12:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I'm like, Hey, let's try this place.
12:40
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Absolutely blew me outta the water with that restaurant.
12:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I think, I think for the four years you had that going, it was the best restaurant in New York City.
12:46
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I think Francis went there four times in a, in the month before it took me to get there.
12:53
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I think he had already been there four or five times before I got there.
12:56
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's a great restaurant.
12:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Why can you tell us about Betony and, and what the restaurant was and how it came about and you know, it's cool.
13:02
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: sure.
13:03
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So after Love Madison Park, uh, I had the pleasure of working on a few different projects.
13:09
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, one of them was called ASCA in Williamsburg, um, you know, on the north side of Williamsburg.
13:14
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, one day, uh, I was, I was, you know, bumming around the floor and talking to guests and doing my thing.
13:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And one of the bartenders came up to me and said, Hey, I think there's somebody at the bar that might know you.
13:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: He says he's a, a chef at Love Madison Park, and you know, he's just having a cocktail.
13:31
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Can you go say hi?
13:31
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And so I did, and it was my old buddy, Bryce Schumann.
13:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, he was then the executive sous chef of Love Madison Park.
13:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, lived in Greenpoint, probably still does, and, stopped into, into asca.
13:44
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: we caught up for a few and he confided in me that he was working on a new project.
13:49
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: He was, uh, in, in conversation with, a gentleman who had ambitions of opening the next great New York restaurant.
13:56
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: had retained Bryce as the chef, and Bryce was looking for his counterparts, And so I joined the team, very quickly thereafter, and we started filling out what would ul ultimately become, Betony and conceiving of what would become Betony.
14:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So I was really blessed at that point to have a longstanding friendship with Bryce.
14:15
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and we, we spoke the same language coming from, from EMP, you know, coming from the kitchen, myself, moving into wine and spirit studies.
14:25
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Studying beer, learning about cocktails, working in service and having experience both in Manhattan, uptown Manhattan, downtown and Brooklyn.
14:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: it gave me, a, a very fortunate skillset to be able to create something from scratch, uh, that ultimately became Betony that was, timeless in some ways, but tried to, you know, strike a modern chord with people.
14:48
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: it was a couple blocks away from, from, uh, Carnegie Hall.
14:51
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So we were catering to, folks that were, very experienced diners as well as, you know, folks coming in from New Jersey, like yourselves.
14:58
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, and, you know, interesting people that were in midtown and or willing to go to Midtown that still wanted something fresh.
15:06
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And from a cocktail perspective, a wine list perspective.
15:09
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Certainly from a food and service perspective, we tried to do things that were tried and true and innovative in, in balance.
15:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I, I'll tell you what I remember about the place.
15:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: 11 Madison Park had its own vibe that it created, right.
15:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It cr it created a vibe that was different than anything else that had previously existed in New York City.
15:30
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And then I felt like Betony was another evolution of that.
15:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It was a branch off of that tree that had a lot of the roots came from that same root stock as 11 Madison Park, but was kind of doing its own thing, was growing a different variety of apples off of the, off this little alarm here.
15:50
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, uh, it was really, really a cool place.
15:53
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, you know, I, I just want you to talk about a little bit about, you know, how does a place like that end?
16:00
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Because we all go to a restaurant like that for four years and we're like, this place will be here forever.
16:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I think that people don't realize all the things that can get in the way of, oh, forever of a successful restaurant just continuing on.
16:13
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Sure.
16:14
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Well, I think there is a, a story and a series of reasons that led to bets closure.
16:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, I also love that this is the first thing we're talking about is like,
16:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah,
16:24
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: us about that, that restaurant you closed,
16:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: no, it was an amazing, it was an amazing place that was, that was doing great.
16:31
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: people don't, people don't understand what the things are that can get in the way.
16:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, and I also, I do wanna spend a little time on this'cause it was extraordinary.
16:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And though we were friends, I saw what you did there.
16:40
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I really think that if it wasn't for external forces, I think that was one of the most important restaurants in America.
16:46
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
16:46
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Prior to Betony, I had no respect for you at all.
16:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And then after that, you know, it just grew a little bit.
16:51
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: mark wants to know about what, what brought about its, demise.
16:54
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Sure.
16:54
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So, you know, had had a series of very specific, circumstances not been, in place.
17:02
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, I think Beney would still be around and doing great,
17:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Me too.
17:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: work.
17:05
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: it's worth noting, um, you know, we were in the ground floor of a lovely, very small building on 57th Street.
17:12
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Just a few doors down from Bergdorf Goodman and around the corner from, uh, Carnegie Hall.
17:17
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You know, we're in an iconic neighborhood, but we were a tiny building in an area that is known now for skyscrapers.
17:22
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, and within a year or so of Betan closure, the entire building was torn down
17:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
17:29
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: that that was already in the cards, right?
17:31
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So it would've been a matter of time no matter what, and that was certainly.
17:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: A major factor.
17:35
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I was pretty chummy with our landlord, who's a really interesting fellow named Cameron.
17:40
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, we were pretty transparent with each other, you know, so, I knew that whether it was, my own decision and, and taking into account a few things which we'll go through, um, or because our landlord was going to tear the building down in an effort to consolidate lots and build another massive skyscraper in midtown there, the days were numbered,
18:02
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right, right.
18:03
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It ha it made me think, how hard am I going to work to, to rally funds for renovation and continue to grow something that fundamentally was going a, a tree that was going to be cut down, uh, in the pretty near future no matter what.
18:17
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: you know, there's no doubt we had an extraordinary wine list.
18:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: We were very busy.
18:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: we were certainly, uh, cashflow positive and, you know, our team was dialed in.
18:25
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I think truly we had, we had one of the greatest teams, certainly the greatest team I've ever worked with.
18:30
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Super fine, super fine dining, but, but, but relaxed, I mean, and the, and it was, it was very comfortable.
18:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
18:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Comfortable, but pretty classy.
18:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I, I, I just want to pay homage to that restaurant'cause it was only here for four years and it was my favorite restaurant, maybe in America for the time that it was here.
18:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So kudos to you for that.
18:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So, but while you were out there, this is a restaurant that pays a ton of attention to everything, to food, to wine.
18:54
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It was a fine dining restaurant that took cocktails seriously.
18:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, uh, you know, our relationship is kind of based in cocktails, uh, at, at the, at the Funment.
19:03
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Um, but while you were there, and this is an important part of your story, you resurrected the milk punch and there are two kinds of milk punch.
19:13
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: There's the New Orleans Milk Punch, which is the Milky Creamy thing.
19:16
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Uh, but there was a clarified milk punch where the solids had all been removed and it was clear and it had lived in the legend.
19:23
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It was a colonial era, way to preserve a lot of different things.
19:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I took the B.A.R.
19:30
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: course, when we made a milk punch with David Wdr a couple of years prior to your having tried it.
19:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And it was okay, but it wasn't clarified to the level yours was.
19:39
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And no one had really recreated a milk punch and you had did that.
19:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: there.
19:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: What you're trying to say is no one had created a milk punch that was worth drinking.
19:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
19:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That and, and that's really what you're trying to say.
19:51
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And you made a milk punch at Betony.
19:53
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: if you're a classy bartender or you want to show your chops, you know, what you're doing, um, I'm sure people call you and say, Hey, can you help us?
20:00
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Perfect.
20:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Our technique of making a milk punch.
20:02
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: All
20:03
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's, it's, it's a wonderful base for a lot of different things.
20:06
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Tell us about that, why you did it, how it came about and what happened with the milk punch.
20:10
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: 'cause that's central to the story.
20:12
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So, I, had come across Milk Punch a number of times in old cocktail books.
20:16
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It pops up pretty frequently.
20:18
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: you know, Jerry Thomas writes about them about them, and it goes even farther back than Colonial era.
20:23
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You know, it's a, it's a.
20:25
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: UK thing.
20:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, if you go back to the 16 hundreds, I had come across it a few times and it sort of perked my ears up, but I hadn't really done much with it.
20:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But, back when I was still at 11 Madison Park, uh, I was, I don't know, 22 years old, maybe 21.
20:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And I was at Danielle Ballou's birthday party at Bar Play Odd, back when it was, the like lounge for Cafe Ballou in the old space.
20:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And my buddy Cameron Bogue, uh, an extraordinarily talented bartender from Canada.
20:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: was the bar manager of bar play Odd and one of the most talented, technically talented and creative, funny dudes you'll ever have the pleasure of meeting.
21:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But, you know, he, he came to me'cause he knew that I was a nerd and starting out my cocktail journey.
21:09
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and also I think we've probably spoken about the fact that I started my life in kitchens.
21:13
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So technique and, and culinary technique, uh, was, was always something that I was very comfortable with.
21:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: was like, you wanna try something cool?
21:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I said, yes, of course.
21:22
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And he pulled out this, uh, Cryovac bag, which was not specific to the technique, it's just how he stored his goodies.
21:28
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You know, he pulled out this crowd vac bag from the freezer behind the bar.
21:31
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and there was a cocktail, a batch cocktail being kept very cold in, in this cooler.
21:36
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, poured it over a, large cube of ice and a high ball, and was like, that's it.
21:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: it was completely clear and there was no garnish.
21:43
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I think that's the mystery and beauty of milk punches, that starts out visually is just being something very clear, you know, and, uh, kind of boring in a way, you know, has so much flavor and so many different layers and Yeah.
22:00
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And texture is exactly right.
22:01
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So, you know, I tried and I was like, this is special.
22:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: What is this?
22:05
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And he said, this is clarified, milk punch.
22:07
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And I was like, ah, I've been reading about this.
22:09
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Let's talk about your technique.
22:11
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and so we talked about it a little bit and like the next day, I was at Eleven Madison Park, uh, behind the bar.
22:16
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: my buddy Shiraz, newer, also a culinary kid and who I worked with later at Betony.
22:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: we started geeking out about, about this technique and, uh, we put a cocktail, uh, clarified milk punch cocktail on the menu at Love Madison Park.
22:29
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And when I left in 2010, um, I went back at some point and was like, can I try whatever the milk punch is right now?
22:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And they said, no, we stopped making that when you left.
22:39
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: We nobody wants to deal with that, you
22:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
22:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I considered it to be sort of my, obligation to the industry to, to continue to make them.
22:48
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And also too, not for nothing, but at, again, as a cook, it's more of a culinary technique than a bartending technique.
22:54
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
22:54
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You know, you're effectively making a protein clarification, a la, consomme or, or even like cheese making, you're, you're kind of making ricotta cheese every time you make a milk punch, but you're just going for the whey, as opposed to the
23:06
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So basically what you do with the, the milk punch is you, take all the way out and you make a completely clear ingredient that you can then modify in a bunch of different ways, which I had for the first time that you bought me the drink.
23:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I sat down at Betony and I was like, what the fuck is this?
23:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It it, it's a whole different category of thing and everybody tried to make'em now.
23:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And is there a place that you have instructions out for people to, how to use your technique to make a milk punch?
23:31
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Is can they look it up online
23:32
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Yeah.
23:32
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I mean, there's a ton of videos, that I made over the years, and then, and even more articles.
23:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So like finding methodology that works, um, is, is pretty easy.
23:42
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That said, as with anything, you know, I was out there, I banging the drum and talking about milk punch for years, and people were like, dude, nobody cares.
23:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It's too much work.
23:52
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: We're not gonna deal with it.
23:53
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And then, you know, over time I think people started realizing this doesn't.
23:57
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Take more time.
23:58
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Perjury served actually takes far less
24:00
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right.
24:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: so that's what kind of what happened in the cocktail world, right?
24:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Everybody started working on their prep.
24:07
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: a way to produce their, the cocktail Ali as fast as they could.
24:11
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So you could spend countless hours doing the prep as long as you could pump it out quickly over the bar.
24:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Alright, let me, let me interject a point that I, I'm seeing more and more by the way, if you're not a cocktail geek, you've probably turned off the show by now.
24:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So welcome to everybody who's here.
24:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We're gonna go down this road a little bit.
24:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: What I'm seeing more and more as I follow n Video, the cocktail world bar prep is very Instagramable and I think bars are showing just how difficult it is and just how many steps they grow through, and the rotovap and the freeze dried and the nitrogen and the, the, you know, all the different things they do to, and like the bar prep of this restaurant or that restaurant, that's a very popular, I mean, mold wine takes six hours.
24:56
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
24:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But it doesn't take, come on.
24:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But it doesn't take six hours of you doing something.
25:00
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yes, that's true.
25:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So the, the genre of, videos that I'm seeing is bars showing they're very complicated, very involved.
25:09
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Bar prep to get ready for the day, makes for great video.
25:12
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I look at a bunch of it and I visit those bars and I think, boy, you wasted a lot of time.
25:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You spent a lot of time.
25:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You could around sprinkled around.
25:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You could have sprinkled some cinnamon on this when you were done.
25:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It would've been great, you know, and I just, I find that a lot of it is performative.
25:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's almost a badge of honor now to go through all these crazy diff difficult steps.
25:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And Mark and I go to a bar and we're like, it wasn't worth the effort.
25:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I mean, it's not very special milk punch, however, there's no other way to get that particular texture.
25:40
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I think that this was the beginning of the era of complicated bar prep.
25:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: do you find that there's a lot of performative stuff out there now?
25:49
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Well, every generation has the thing, right?
25:51
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Has their, their whatever they care about that will probably be born out to be somewhat, uh, exaggerated in its importance.
25:59
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But there's something good that comes from it, you know, for those who know, um, I guess, you know, to stick with this clarification technique and I'll, I'll, I'll expand it beyond milk punches, just like to all clarifications, whether it's agar or otherwise, Sometimes I ask myself and, and I'm usually more polite now than I used to be.
26:17
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: so I don't ask the bartender, you know?
26:19
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Okay, cool.
26:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You have a clarified Hemingway daiquiri, and, you know, you spent the money on the great rums.
26:27
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Let's say you use, you know, a Cuban rum or a Cuban style rum to give homage to, you know, the daiquiri, but you're like, I'm so hot on Agrico right now.
26:36
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So I'm gonna get like a great bottle of agrico and mix it with my, my Cuban style rum.
26:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And then I'm gonna make an oleo scru with lime peels, and then I'm gonna make, you know, fresh grapefruit juice.
26:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: gonna have to work the glossary on this show in, in the show notes, but that's okay.
26:52
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We'll do it.
26:53
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We'll do it.
26:54
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
26:54
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That's great.
26:55
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You're doing great.
26:55
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Go ahead.
26:55
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: This is all these, all these terms will be defined in the glossary.
26:59
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right.
26:59
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Well, these are all great expenditures of
27:02
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
27:03
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and you know, of course mech occur and you, perform your clarification using whatever protein you want.
27:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and at the end of it, you have something that is indeed perfectly clear, does absolutely contain all of those ingredients.
27:16
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But because of the clarification, you can't tell.
27:20
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
27:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right?
27:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and so for, for me, and this is not about clarification.
27:24
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: This could be about carbonation, it could be about fat
27:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yep.
27:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: could be, could be about anything, could be about using a rotor evaporator or a sonicate, like, or, a vacuum chamber to like vacuum infuse
27:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I want you to keep using words.
27:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: 'cause right now Jennifer's like on ching ching ching.
27:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Typing, typing, typing.
27:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: No, but go ahead.
27:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah, so you can use all these things and to complete your point.
27:45
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: My my, my point though is like, these are the things that I'm seeing pop up more and more and more in mainstream cocktail,
27:52
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
27:53
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: feeds, if these sound like buzzwords now that are unfamiliar, give it a couple years and they won't be.
27:59
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right.
27:59
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And so the point being that a lot of these pieces of equipment and or techniques are being utilized in a way that strips away the, the thing about the drink that makes it so special, right?
28:09
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
28:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: right?
28:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, you could accomplish much the same effect.
28:14
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: By using either just time or, a technique that didn't require you to buy a four or$5,000 piece of equipment.
28:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And like if I'm having a, a Hemingway daiquiri that has an extraordinary, you know, smuggled in by somebody's bag, Cuban rum, and, you know, Nissan White Agrico or Jam Blanc, Agrico and like the Oles sacrament's been been, you know, marinating for 10 days just to make a few drops of this extraordinary oil and fresh juices, et cetera.
28:42
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And if I can't taste the agrico, what's the point?
28:47
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: there are, there are certainly lots of folks that are, sort of playing around with techniques and playing around with, equipments and, and gadgets, that, you know, may, maybe they're not, fully actualized, yet, but in the course of that experimentation, then all of a sudden something amazing happens and they become, become proficient at it, right?
29:03
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So that's one thing.
29:05
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I don't wanna just be, grumpy about, you know, clarifications that destroy the nuance of extraordinary spirits.
29:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That said, there are also places that I think, you know, deserve more.
29:15
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: attention and more, more love, uh, that are, that are doing extraordinarily, thoughtful, things with techniques and gadgets and things like that.
29:24
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: The, the one that I think most people in New York know, uh, Shinji.
29:28
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I think what John is doing at Shinji, you know, he's, very, uh, calculated and takes his time to learn about things.
29:35
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and in terms of, the way to use a piece of equipment or an ingredient that's going into it.
29:40
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, and it translates to his cocktail program.
29:42
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Some really adventurous cocktails and also just some flat out delicious drinks that use techniques that a lot of people dabble with or are, are playing with.
29:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: He's using at a level of expertise, I think is really remarkable.
29:53
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And the second place is, uh, room 2 0 7.
29:57
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, Heman, the, the dude who has gained a lot of, notoriety with the work that he is done with Jano and with Jasa.
30:05
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, he's now operating actual full on cocktail bar and using techniques, that are deceptively simple with profound results in temperature, um, in carbonation, in all sorts of ways That's truly exceptional, uh, that I think everybody that is a cocktail nerd and is, has access to New York City Metro.
30:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Those are two places.
30:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: If you're looking to see technique used to its fullest, uh, or at least by people who are really, really smart and very good at what they're doing, those are spots you should hit.
30:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I think also it's important to, to note, I, we don't wanna be disparaging people who are experimenting with new techniques because like with molecular gastronomy, that was all the rage from the dawn of WD 50 and Wiley Defra.
30:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Um, there were things that were done that I, I don't think wound up with delicious when they were cool and new and you said, well, it's great that you can do that, but why do that?
30:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But outta that fascination, from Madrid to New York to London with molecular gastronomy, you wound up with.
31:06
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Some techniques that have stuck and have really advanced the ability of everyone to make better cocktails and to which some people use to great advantage.
31:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I think Making Milk Punch is one of those very involved processes that, uh, provides rewards and continuing knowledge and really delicious drinks to people.
31:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: totally.
31:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: look, there's some amazing people doing amazing cocktails out there, and there are some people that are using these techniques.
31:32
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Two amazing ends,
31:33
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: yes.
31:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: there are a lot of people who are just, you know, I'm like, okay, you did all this stuff.
31:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I'm, I'm, I'm super impressed.
31:39
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I'm, I wish the drink was better.
31:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: okay, you can do all this, but why?
31:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You have to have a reason to make it so it, it, the focus can't be on the technique.
31:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's the focus.
31:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Focus has to be on the finished product.
31:51
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I think there's a backlash coming.
31:52
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I think there's a like, and what I think owners should do and bar owners should do, is if it doesn't make it to making a unique thing that you couldn't achieve as good a result otherwise, okay, let your bartender go.
33:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But let's remember bartenders and beverage directors like to play with expensive machines and do a lot of stuff because they can.
33:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Amen.
33:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: we're gonna talk about one of my favorite days in the restaurant business ever that we spent together.
33:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: When you come back to the restaurant, guys@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
33:52
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So we're back with Amen.
33:53
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Rocky and, uh, his cocktails, which we are drinking as we record.
33:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: This podcast.
33:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Almost finished.
34:00
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It's really our cocktail,
34:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That's it.
34:02
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yes, it is indeed.
34:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: amen.
34:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: what I said before the break, uh, I was talking about one of my favorite days in the restaurant business and what it was you invited, Francis and me to teach a class at ICE Institute for Culinary Education.
34:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Not the name the other ice.
34:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: and Francis and I went into New York City and you invited us to teach your students for one class just on, the finances of the restaurant business.
34:32
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And Francis and I gave a lecture.
34:33
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We had a great time and the students all showed up.
34:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, uh, and I, and I wanna know why you didn't invite us back, man.
34:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: What I think is crazy is you guys may not remember the day of this guest lecture, but it was actually March 13th, 2020, and just a couple of days later, the official COVID lockdown happened.
34:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I remember that I was absurdly, I think, overly optimistic about, you know, things not shutting down, not being as bad as it ultimately became.
35:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And I'll give you full credit, uh, Francis in particular, I'm sure Mark, you had his back.
35:08
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But, uh, I remember Francis saying, no, no, this is going to be different.
35:12
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Prepare yourself.
35:13
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And I just didn't see it.
35:14
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And of course I was proven wrong.
35:15
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and it's because of you guys.
35:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I wish I had been wrong.
35:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
35:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Don't, don't blame the epidemic on us.
35:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Don't blame anybody else.
35:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So I, I will say I had so much fun teaching that class.
35:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Great.
35:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I Francis and I left there.
35:30
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Half to, we had two topics of discussion as we left.
35:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: One was, oh my God, the world's coming to an end.
35:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And the other one was, oh my God, that was so much fun.
35:40
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We need to do stuff like that more.
35:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Yeah.
35:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Uh, teaching that class to interested Culinarians was so much fun.
35:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I mean, that was a big part of your life for a few years there.
35:50
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: my question to you is, and I know obviously COVID happened and, and the program changed, but how have you not gotten back into that you were a natural for natural teacher.
36:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: How did you not get back into that and you were the director of Beverage for ice, right.
36:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Beverage education.
36:06
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Director of Beverage Studies for ice?
36:08
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That is correct.
36:09
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, you know, I, I started working on that program, uh, that launched a few fateful months, uh, before the lockdown happened.
36:17
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, in 2020.
36:19
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, I started working on it kind of in tandem launching Rockey's.
36:23
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, uh, to the extent that this is the right podcast for it, uh, launching a brand is a lot more time consuming and takes a lot longer,
36:32
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
36:33
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
36:33
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: than I thought for sure.
36:35
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, you know, it took about.
36:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: 20 months or so to get Rockey's off the ground from day one of like in earnest grinding away at it and first bottle being available.
36:46
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I never even considered that.
36:48
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: as, as a timeline, you know, you can open a restaurant.
36:51
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: In three or four months, if you're not looking to do a whole lot of, of Reno.
36:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And I, I just approached, I approached the, the brands in the same way that I'd approached restaurant projects prior and I'd done four openings.
37:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So I thought this is gonna be a piece of cake.
37:05
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I already know how to make the stuff, I gotta find some bottles and somewhere to put, put the liquid in.
37:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right?
37:11
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, but that was, that was just flat out wrong.
37:12
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: whenever I was building the, the brand, you know, and conceiving of the processes of bringing it to market, uh, I had a lot of, a lot of time.
37:21
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Because unlike building a restaurant, there's a whole lot of things you're waiting for.
37:25
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You're waiting for samples to come back from your glass manufacturer.
37:27
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You're waiting for approvals to come through from the TTB or SLA.
37:31
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You're waiting and waiting and waiting, right?
37:33
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So with all that downtime.
37:35
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: did a bit of consulting.
37:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and I also, had been mulling in the back of my mind on this idea of creating a, continuing education program for people in our industry of any level, right?
37:46
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So you could be a cook or a bartender, or a sommelier or a server manager, it doesn't matter.
37:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Owner.
37:51
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, this course is designed to, uh, either give you a soup to nuts, you know, primer on a variety of different topics that are very important from a management perspective.
38:00
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Or, uh, if, if you are.
38:03
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Actively using that skillset could fill in some very crucial holes.
38:06
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right?
38:07
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And your talk in particular, I think was, was one of the more, I think, uh, advanced, classes that we gave, some of them were really fundamental and were amazing for that.
38:16
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, and yours I think was, was really cool because it took you into an owner's mindset or in a p and l mindset and, and costing mindset, uh, which was amazing.
38:25
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So, uh, that was an amazing course.
38:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I'm gonna give you a great compliment right now.
38:30
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Oh boy.
38:30
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Okay.
38:31
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You are my kind of salesperson.
38:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Oh.
38:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Okay.
38:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Hospitality first salesperson.
38:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
38:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You can, it's clear to me, that you learned about sales through hospitality.
38:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I have a very good friend who sells insurance, And he sells you things that you need, but you don't really want.
38:52
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: we come from the perspective of selling things that you want, but don't really need.
38:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And that perspective is, I'm gonna make your life better.
39:02
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I'm gonna make you happy.
39:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: this is gonna be fun.
39:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: we're gonna do this together, and we're both gonna be enriched from this.
39:10
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I've always felt that, that, whether you were selling me a milk punch of Betony or the fo gra over the bar.
39:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I was gonna be enriched.
39:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I was, this was gonna make me happy.
39:20
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It was gonna make me better.
39:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That has been your approach with Rockey's botanicals as well.
39:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I love it.
39:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I love that it's Juston being Amen.
39:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Or rocky being rocky, uh, coming to you and saying, here, try this cool thing.
39:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You like it, great.
39:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You don't like it.
39:35
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Okay, I'll move to the next place and, and find somebody who does like it.
39:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: 'cause it's a cool thing and I want people to see the cool things that are happening.
39:42
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: first of all, thank you.
39:43
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That's very kind of you.
39:44
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and there's no doubt that, uh, the, the approach that I take whenever I present Rockey's to a new and fresh audience, uh, is well informed by years and years and years in hospitality.
39:58
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, we could go down a rabbit hole on my soapbox, uh, about sales techniques that are successful and unsuccessful and sometimes the detriment of a hospitality background, uh, being, being at least in my opinion, uh, a major consideration, uh, for, for sales.
40:16
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, but I'm not sure that this is the
40:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: No, I, I'd like to know you.
40:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah, I wanna know what are a couple of ways, sorry, buddy.
40:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: What are no, what are the, what are the ways, because so many You let that rabbit outta the hat.
40:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Now he's gonna jump around.
40:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Let's see what he.
40:28
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I'm happy to talk about it.
40:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Let's so, so many people in our business, a trajectory from the restaurant business is to go into wine sales or spirit sales or work for a spirits company.
40:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, um, a lot of people take to that like a fish to water and some people struggle with that.
40:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: What are some of the pitfalls of taking a hospitality mindset into another venue,
40:49
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So if, if I had said what I'm about to say to myself.
40:54
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: In 20 16, 17, 18, whenever I was developing this brand, uh, I would've told myself to get lost and I would not have believed me and the importance of, of this perspective.
41:07
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, but I, I do believe it to be true.
41:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: that is when you are working in a restaurant or bar, whether it's a casual mom and pop place, or it's a fine dining fancy place, it doesn't really matter.
41:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: are coming to you.
41:22
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: People are opening the door walking in into your little domain,
41:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: already chosen you.
41:28
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: We've already chosen you, and it is your opportunity to squander right now.
41:33
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: There's all sorts of reasons, that makes it even more difficult because there's an expectation that you have to uphold all these things, right?
41:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, versus being a wine producer or spirits producer or, or a salesperson of anything, right?
41:49
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That you are, you are actively seeking new markets and new consumers for your good.
41:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Those people have existed their entire lives without knowing about you or caring about you and done just fine without whatever it is you are selling.
42:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and the point that I think is, is really important to acknowledge is as, relates to this conversation, if you are a bartender who has spent years making drinks and being told that they were awesome, probably because they are awesome and the drinks are awesome, and you then are given a product that is, let's just say it's a great product, and you are turned loose with this massive sense of self-worth that was earned, that was earned and a great product to sell, and you are now responsible for, you know, bringing in a thousand cases of orders over the course of a year or two or whatever it is, and, and you don't have people coming to you, but you have to go to them.
42:45
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Oftentimes people struggle.
42:47
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: People really struggle because the skillset is totally different and the approach is different.
42:52
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And you know, when you're walking into a store in Montgomery County, Maryland, and, and you've never worked in Maryland and these people haven't seen you bartend, haven't tried the thing that you're making, or you're selling, uh, and you have to in, in the course of 45 seconds, that's, and that's not an insignificant amount of time.
43:12
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: 45 seconds is a pretty long time.
43:14
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: If you're counting those
43:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yes.
43:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Most people won't listen to you.
43:18
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: that's exact, most people won't listen to you for 20, right?
43:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And so in the course of a minute, let's say you have to get them to decide to listen to you, decide to try your product, evaluate whether or not it's right for them, evaluate whether they're, they're gonna need to.
43:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: to purchase something else in order to purchase yours, and make this entire conversion happen.
43:39
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and it's without exaggeration, a lot of these happen in the course of minutes.
43:43
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, and, and once that has ship has sailed, it's over.
43:46
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
43:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
43:47
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: not, you're not getting back in
43:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
43:49
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: for years if, if that same person is there and they've already said no to you once.
43:53
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right?
43:53
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So, um, I'm not trying to dramatize this, right.
43:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I think, you know, there is, an equally valid skillset that a person can develop, but it does not come directly from working in hospitality.
44:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: a friend of ours, was saying about us recently, oh, they're a great salesman.
44:07
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: They sell artwork they sell, cocktails and wine.
44:12
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So here's what you and Mark and I have in common.
44:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I don't think I am a great salesman'cause I know some great salesman.
44:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Okay.
44:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I, I know what we have in common.
44:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We're all assholes.
44:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yes.
44:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That we have in common.
44:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Go ahead.
44:23
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: What else do we have in common, Francis?
44:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: That's, that's the baseline.
44:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But, I know great salesmen and they can sell anything and they can sell stuff they don't believe in.
44:31
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I have a suspicion about you and I know about me and Mark the reason I can't go to work for somebody else and I would have to choose who I work for very carefully if I were selling someone else's product is'cause I would be terrible at and feel terrible about selling things that I don't believe in.
44:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So we started our own company to make sure that we only.
44:54
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Do things that we believe in, I can sell those.
44:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mm-hmm.
44:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But I don't know that I could sell vacuum cleaners.
45:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I, I, I don't know that it could maybe the best, but if I did, it would have to be the best vacuum cleaner in the world for the best price.
45:07
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And I think that's the recourse where you, where you had to run into the world and where we had to run into the world where I can sell stuff I believe in.
45:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Um, and so I sell stuff that we get to decide what we have, what the inventory is.
45:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I, I think you're gonna enjoy this story'cause it's gonna harken back to your, your prior career.
45:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Amen.
45:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: one of the things I just told the staff recently, I'm not sure you were there, Francis, was pick things in this restaurant that you love and recommend those things.
45:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right?
45:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And if there's something here that you don't like, for whatever reason.
45:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Don't talk about it.
45:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right.
45:43
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right.
45:43
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Okay.
45:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Find the things that you really care about and you really love and talk about those things, and you will connect in a real way with the person in the chair, and it, it makes all the difference in the world to believe in the product you're selling.
46:00
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Yeah, I'm into that.
46:02
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I knew you would be, I know you well enough to know that's a Amen.
46:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Rocky philosophy.
46:06
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: there are so many ways that I, I would like to speak to this, um, the.
46:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: There was a vegan captain, uh, on the team named Riley at Love Madison.
46:14
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Whenever we were, we were both coming up around the same time and he couldn't have 85% of the
46:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: mm-hmm.
46:20
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: he was waxing rap sodic about to every table.
46:23
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So I, I do think that certainly it is so important to have, uh, a personal resonance with the things that you're selling up to the point that, you know, you're still able to see the person sitting in the chair that has a different flavor as you, than you, right.
46:40
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That has a different set of preferences and you're able to be the ambassador for not just the things you love, but also the things that you have at your disposal to make people happy.
46:48
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So I do agree, but you know, to be able to translate the things, the, the entire roster of things on offer to those who are there to enjoy them, I think is really important.
46:59
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, and you know, in a retail environment, you're sitting in a wine cellar.
47:02
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I know you guys sell a lot of wine and spirits.
47:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, as a retailer, not as a, as a, as a restaurant or bar necessarily.
47:09
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You, there, there are so many buyers that I encounter about Rockey's who, try the product and they're like, oh, you know, I, I, I don't love apples.
47:18
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And I'm like, well, the funny thing about that is else does, right?
47:23
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
47:24
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Literally everybody else does.
47:28
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: so to be told, uh, by a buyer that, you know, I don't know if this is, if this is for my store because I don't really like apples that much.
47:36
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I'm just like, bro, you are really shooting yourself in the foot here.
47:39
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: That is just an absolutely ridiculous
47:41
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I think one of the things that, that maybe got missed in what I was saying is.
47:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Because I didn't say it is, is you still should know a lot about the products and you can still respect something for being of high quality.
47:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
47:59
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
47:59
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Without necessarily liking it yourself.
48:02
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
48:02
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Yeah.
48:03
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: you know, everybody loves Sair.
48:05
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I like Sair, I don't love Sair, but I can respect a high quality Sair and I can not love a low quality sair.
48:14
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: and I can tell you the difference.
48:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: that's kind of not what I was talking about.
48:18
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I was talking more about there's so many things here to be passionate about that When somebody says, what do you love?
48:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You can tell them what you love.
48:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: so you made milk punch at Betony and it kind of took over the world, but then when you launch your own brand, you launch your brand initially as Rockey's milk punch and that's now Rockey's Botanical Liqueur, which we use and have behind our bar and which we endorse and we love.
48:38
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We and, and Mark is now shaking his glass, my now empty glass.
48:45
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: how did you commercialize the milk punch and why did we change it to Rockey's botanic?
48:49
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Sure.
48:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So Milk Punch had been my obsession for years, uh, and kind of alluding to sales techniques earlier.
48:57
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: You know, it's what people were coming to the restaurant and bar to drink.
49:01
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I, I was.
49:02
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I didn't need to do anything to get people in the door to have the drink'cause it was so cool and innovative and delicious.
49:08
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, and so I assumed that if I made one, put it into a bottle and started pounding the pavement to, to offer it to the world, people would likewise be really welcoming of it.
49:18
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And that's simply not the case.
49:19
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, uh, that visit fine dining restaurants and fancy bars are there because they've read about something or they've been told to go and just try the thing, try let them do their, do their performance and, and try the, the stuff they're serving.
49:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But when you're walking around, you know, the Hudson Valley or you're walking around South Jersey, right?
49:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: People there probably haven't heard of you
49:44
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah,
49:45
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: care about the thing that you're selling.
49:46
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: that's because you hadn't been on the restaurant guys yet.
49:48
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Yeah.
49:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: and so, you know, I, I said to myself, I created something that was designed for.
49:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Cocktail nerds and or those who were adventurous and going to a, fine dining restaurant or, progressive cocktail technique bar.
50:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I didn't design something that was approachable and, and, uh, was intended to be used in every home bar and every cocktail bar and dive bar or whatever.
50:17
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Like, I, I wanted to think that what I released, uh, was a versatile modifier, but in fact, what it was, was, um, an homage to the bar that I used to operate right.
50:28
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And so I had to, over the course of a year, you know, eat crow and re rejigger the formula a touch, and certainly redesign the package and the presentation so that it could become what it was always intended to be.
50:42
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Something that on a, on a retail shelf is 24 bucks and, um, could be taken home and used by anybody.
50:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It's made from a blend of green apple, pineapple, green and black tea, lemon, lime, and orange.
50:56
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: has way less sugar than most of the curves.
50:58
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It sips more like a slightly sweet wine.
51:01
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, there's a ton of bright, refreshing acidity from the citrus.
51:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, and the alcohol is moderate, right?
51:07
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So at 12% it's, again, it's more like a wine.
51:10
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, so for those who are looking for a lower A BV cocktail, easy for those who want to rock it out with something more spirit forward, no problem.
51:18
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, and in the same way as any consumer certainly can find a way to make spritzes and sangrias and margaritas at home with it, and negronis at home with it, uh, a bartender can and should use it as an affordable, versatile, natural modifier made in the US that can, that can elevate virtually any style of cocktail that you throw at it.
51:39
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Well, I think it, it's very interesting that you, when you launched into the retail category as a milk punch, if it's a friend of yours and it's a new gin, a new whiskey or a new, even a pariti or a Marrow, when you walk into the bar or the retail spot, they at least know what category it's in frame of reference.
51:58
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So you've, when you introduce Rockey's as a milk punch, you've gotta establish a new category as well as a new product for a lot of people.
52:04
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And, um, I think that people are rewarded when they're looking into it.
52:08
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But when you change it to Rockey's botanicals, um, are you having greater success with it then?
52:13
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I'm seeing it everywhere.
52:15
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Uh, for sure it was, it was like over overnight the light switch turned on.
52:18
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, and you know, the, the full name of the spirit is Rockey's Botanical Laur, right?
52:24
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Right?
52:24
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Laur people, people have,
52:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's in a category.
52:27
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Very firm grasp of right between Bailey's and Quantro and St.
52:32
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Germaine and aal, right?
52:34
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: There's no shortage of very familiar household name LA occurs out there.
52:38
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And from a botanical perspective, again, it's an intention is to illustrate the, complexity, and layers of, of the spirit.
52:47
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It's not an orange liqueur or, or a cream liqueur or a chocolate liqueur.
52:51
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It's, or elder flower liqueur for that matter.
52:53
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: It is something that has layers and, um, you know, all those layers harmonized to perform the function of being a very versatile, uh, tasty, not too sweet, bright, refreshing modifier that can be thrown into any style of cocktail.
53:07
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Mark and I, of course, endorse Rockey's, and we use it in our, this is not a paid promotion, by the way.
53:12
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Uh, and we use it behind our bars and have it in our shop.
53:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Um, and we'll put the recipe to Rockey's Garden, which we've been drinking throughout the course of this show in our show notes.
53:21
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: But where can bartenders and, and folks who wanna use it in buyers who want to use it in their home bar or in their bar, where can they go to find recipes and suggestions on how to use Rockey's?
53:32
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Oh well the website I think is a great, uh, first stop.
53:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: And what is the website?
53:37
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Rockey's la cure.com
53:39
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: RO tk EYS.
53:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: There you go.
53:41
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Add that E-R-O-C-K-E-Y-S, uh, L-I-Q-U-E-U-R.
53:46
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Right.
53:47
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So Rockey's the cure.com is a great first stop.
53:50
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: you know, if you're in the industry, there are plenty of plenty ways to get, get you the bottle through distributors, especially on the East coast.
53:56
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: But I'm growing, uh, farther west as well.
53:58
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And there is a map on the website that has most of the bar stores and restaurants that carry Rockey's.
54:04
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, you know, I need to spend some time updating that.
54:07
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Honestly, there's a bunch of really great people that have brought product on recently and they're not reflected yet, so just gimme some time on that.
54:13
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Um, and I think Instagram, I, I hate to be, you know, the elder millennial that's, that's singing the praises of Instagram, but I mean, that's a great place to, to go for, you know, updates on events
54:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: how do we find you on Instagram?
54:26
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Same thing.
54:27
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Rockey's liqueur
54:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Love it.
54:28
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Love it.
54:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: So we're gonna have to unfortunately wait till the next show to talk about our, similar passion for tea.
54:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You know, I know you use it in Rocky Laur.
54:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I know you, you've been a tea head for a long time, but that's gonna, it's gonna have to wait for another
54:42
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I look forward to any opportunity I have to hang out with you guys.
54:45
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Dayon.
54:45
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: It's been fantastic.
54:47
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Your stuff is fantastic and I'm glad we're able to discuss your story on the restaurant.
54:51
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Guys, finally,
54:52
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: I am so grateful and, and appreciative also.
54:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Thank you, Francis.
54:55
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Thank you, mark.
54:56
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Thank you, Jen.
54:57
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: you know, I, I feel, obligated to send the hello from Robin Robinson, also
55:01
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I love Robin.
55:03
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: your fellow Jersey I, uh, who I was on the phone with not an hour before this.
55:08
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: And, like myself holds you in such high esteem and affection.
55:11
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: So pass along that, in the moment.
55:13
rockey_1_02-25-2026_130655: Hello.
55:14
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: I love you.
55:14
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Awesome.
55:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Thank you man.
55:15
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: You are the best.
55:16
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: Uh, you can find out more about us and Rockey's and where to find it and who he is at, uh, restaurant guys podcast.com.
55:22
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_130654: We'll be back in just a moment.
55:55
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: I love a Amen, Rocky.
55:56
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: He's a good guy.
55:57
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: He's a really good guy, but I do remember the day that we went to teach that class at ice, and I remember when we arrived, me being in Jersey, living in Jersey City, you came to my house and we went down, we took the fer.
56:08
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: Went down to the ferry dock where there are like eight ferry slips that take you to Wall Street, take you to, uh, the, the finance World Financial Center mm-hmm.
56:17
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: That take you to Midtown.
56:19
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: And there was no one on the, there were three people on our ferry.
56:23
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: No.
56:23
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: And there were three people on the whole ferry dock.
56:25
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: Yeah.
56:26
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: three people includes you and me.
56:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:27
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: There's one other guy.
56:29
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: And then we landed, we took the ferry across the river to Manhattan, to Brookfield Place.
56:34
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: All the yachts that are usually docked there.
56:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: All gone.
56:36
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: All gone.
56:37
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: And it was a ghost town.
56:39
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: And that's why when he said, Francis, you knew.
56:42
the-restaurant-guys_3_02-25-2026_141422: I was like, I knew, I knew you don't evacuate Manhattan.
56:45
Mark: When you had, you were already talking about it, you know, two months earlier.
56:50
Mark: And one of the things I remember you said about that,'cause I don't know if you remember this, they said.
56:55
Mark: We're gonna shut down for two weeks.
56:58
Mark: And, and that was the plan.
57:00
Mark: The initial plan was, we're gonna shut you down for two weeks.
57:02
Mark: But we had been watching the news from around the world.
57:05
Mark: I don't, I don't think so.
57:06
Mark: And it wasn't a two week progression.
57:08
Mark: It, there was no way that we weren't gonna be shut for eight weeks.
57:12
Mark: Yeah, yeah.
57:12
Mark: There was no way.
57:13
Mark: Well, that, that, how this was rolling through the world, that.
57:17
Mark: That that was, that that was a realistic thing.
57:19
Mark: Right.
57:19
Mark: Because we had just been, the prior week we had been at a wine tasting.
57:23
Mark: Mm-hmm.
57:23
Mark: And it, I don't even remember this, we're an Italian wine tasting.
57:26
Mark: Oh.
57:26
Mark: I remember the Metropolitan Pavilion where there were thousands, thousands of people of people pressed up right next to each other.
57:32
Mark: Yeah.
57:32
Mark: And it was the Italian wine tasting.
57:33
Mark: And we heard from a few of the Italian wine makers that the Italian news was saying there were bad things going on over there.
57:38
Mark: Mm-hmm.
57:39
Mark: So we knew it had to come over here.
57:40
Mark: Yeah.
57:40
Mark: Anyway, I'm really glad that's behind us.
57:42
Mark: So glad that was a, a heck of a time.
57:45
Mark: But I will tell you, the teach in that class was great.
57:47
Mark: And what's great about Amon is you know, he eventually became the COO of the company that owned that restaurant as well as owned several other restaurants.
57:55
Mark: So he's got a bartender's personality, he's got a captain skill level, he's the general manager skill level, and he knows how the finances work, which is one of the reasons he's so impressive.
58:04
Mark: Yeah, right.
58:05
Mark: He's always been a make it happen kind of guy.
58:07
Mark: From the moment you meet him you're like, this guy's gonna make it happen.
58:10
Mark: But he also makes you smile and is a great guy to have a drink with.
58:12
Mark: But I think we should go because we're out of our cocktails now, so we're gonna go make another round.
58:16
Mark: N my tea, I got no tea, I got no cocktails.
58:18
Mark: I'm a mess.
58:18
Mark: Yeah, you can keep your tea.
58:19
Mark: I'm gonna go make us some more cocktails.
58:21
Mark: I hope you've enjoyed the time here with Amen Rocky, I'm the restaurant guys.
58:23
Mark: I'm Francis Shot.
58:24
Mark: And I'm Mark Pascal.
58:25
Mark: We are the restaurant guys.
58:26
Mark: You can always find out more about us.
58:27
Mark: You can like and subscribe and do all that cool stuff@restaurantguyspodcast.com.