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The Challenges of Being a Gay Man · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:04
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men going deeper, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diorio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I'm Matt Lancadell, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. So we each have our own private practice, and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff with you guys. Today we're talking about the challenges of being a gay man. We're going to be exploring questions like what are some of the challenges you faced or still face as a gay man? And what helps you face these challenges? And as usual, we will continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the gay men's brotherhood, sharing circles where you'll have your chance to share your own experiences. We also have our connection circles which happen on the second Thursday of every month, and our smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics on this podcast with other members of the community. So doing exactly what Michael, Reno and I do every week, you'll get your chance to do the same thing. So you can go to game and going or Gamemen'sbrotherhood dot and check out our event section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, you can get on our email list and we'll email you the Zoom link to that as well. And just remember that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You can also subscribe to Early Access option on Apple Podcast, listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. And all. Your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you for that in advance of and if you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, check out our coaching collection. Learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us, as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships. Courses and those can be found@gaymengoingdeeper.com and lastly, if you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us to get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, let's dig in. So growing up gay, we've done lots of podcasts on this. I did one called the core wounds of growing up gay. Definitely one to. If you like this topic, that's. That's one to explore. Um, but, yeah, most of us have had the experience. I won't speak for everybody, but a lot of people that I talk to and work with, um, talk about the stress of being a minority. Um, there's minority stress for many different things. Being gay is one of them. The thing that makes being gay unique is that the minority piece comes in an area that is very taboo and can carry a lot of shame. So the challenges of growing up gay usually are rooted in shame inadequacy. There might be trauma attached to it. And it's important to note that we all have our own experience with this. Right. I've talked to some guys that have had amazing experiences. No issues. Being gay has been very pleasant for them. Their parents were very supportive of them. They had amazing friends. Maybe they grew in cities where it was very accepted and this wasn't an issue for them. Then you have people on the other end of the spectrum that might grow up in places where it's still punishment by death to be gay. Right. So we're talking about two ends of the spectrum. So listeners might have very, very different experiences of the challenges of being gay, and we want to honor all of them in the full continuum. So I kind of broke it down into two. Two streams, I guess. So the first one being challenges accepting being gay, and then the second one being challenges living as a gay man. And there's for sure going to be crossover here, because just because we're living as a gay man doesn't mean that we're not. Might still not be challenged by accepting our gayness. Right. So under the category of challenges accepting being gay, I wrote down, like, you know, we might have acceptance or not getting acceptance from family, friends, community, church, any sort of pieces revolving around acceptance. So that's going to be hard. If we're not seeing acceptance in our environment and we're not having a sense of belonging, it's going to create, likely create us to not be able to accept ourselves or make it more challenging. How we were raised might play into this, too. Like, you know, if we were raised with strong confidence and self esteem and self worth, it might be a lot easier for us to come to terms with our gayness. Where we grew up in the world definitely plays a role. Were we outwardly gay, like, flamboyant, or were we able to mask and were we not visibly gay? So there's challenges that come with both, I will say so being outwardly or more flamboyantly gay, I think that could lead to things like being bullied, people knowing we're gay. So it's really in your face, no ability to hide that. But that also might be the thing that pushed you to accepting yourself and being in that fierceness. Right. I see that a lot with people, and then I see some people who were able to mask behind, say, masculinity, and they really struggled to accept themselves, and they still might even be in the closet. And there's so much hiddenness that it's almost impossible for them to meet that part of themselves. So, again, there's definitely silver lining to both in its own way. There's probably plenty more in that category. Those are just the things that came to the top of my mind. And then the challenge is living as a gay man. So this is like, if you've come to terms, you've come out to some people, you're now living, you're connecting with the community. You're not hiding as much. So you might find challenges, like not feeling like you fit into the gay community. You might be being triggered by other gay men. Other gay men might be highlighting parts of yourself that you haven't integrated or learned to love yet. So there might be that. And this is likely going to bleed into internalized homophobia. Starting to see that there's still parts of us that need to be loved and connected to. And then one I see pretty predominantly still in our community is the fear of HIV AIDS. Other sti's that. And I know for a lot of more mature men who lived through that crisis, and they were having sex during that crisis. I was still quite young. I wasn't sexually active in the peak of it. That might be a very, very big fear and a big challenge with living as a gay man. So, yeah, I don't want to go too much further because I don't want to ruin all the things that we might have to talk about in our thing. Yeah. Let's go into the first question. So what are some of the challenges you faced or still face as a gay man? And let's go with Michael.
• 7:32
  Speaker B: Ah, great intro. I love those two streams. Thank you, Matt. Yeah, it's really good. Really, really. It gives me a lot to think about. The timing of this is actually perfect, divine timing, because in my men's group, we just. The first. The first one we do is minority stress, and it's called growing up gay. And so we just had that on Wednesday, and we are recording two days later. So it's all very alive for me right now. And the reason we do that one first is exactly what you said. I think we have to look at the context of what it means to be a minority and just accept that. Accept that part of us, even the parts that even as an out gay man, still might not be fully accepted. Right. Okay. So all of the challenges that I face as a gay man and still do face to end face, um, they all kind of lead to one greater arc that I kind of want to talk about. So I kind of looked at it from a macro view, and I will explain some of the more specific ones later. Um, and I think a lot of people are going to resonate with this. Similar to what you had said, matt, but not everybody, right? So just take what resonates and leave the rest, as they say. So I want you to imagine that there's a gap between the day you realize you're gay, you kind of come out to yourself, which is usually internal. And then the day you say, I love being gay, I love this about myself, I want you to imagine that gap. That's usually a very, very long gap. Okay. So for me, I realized I was gay when I was about twelve or 13 years old. I can't pinpoint the day exactly, but it was around that time, and that was not meant met with a resounding yes, gay fucking hit the jackpot. I think that now going back to our last episode, but at the time, it wasn't right. It was like a. Oh, fucked. I. I wish I wasn't this way. I can't be found out like deep fear. Something's wrong with me. I need to fix this. And this lasted for a very, very long time by myself at that age. Not like I'm not equipped to handle that, right? And I wasn't equipped to handle that. So immediately I was faced with this uphill battle. When it came to my relationship with myself. I didn't like who I was. I didn't like this fundamental thing about me that I could not change. So that still does challenge me to this day. Like, that journey from who I am to self love was not immediate. It took a very long time. It's still a journey. But there are still challenges. Learning how to love yourself. Feeling confident and secure with who I authentically am, not who I thought I wanted to be, or who I wanted to please my parents and my teachers and my friends. And even as I came out wanting to please the other guys around me and wanting to get their acceptance and that sense of belonging that you had mentioned, that was also a big challenge and still can be. I still get triggered sometimes by other gay men. I need to engage and then sometimes disengage for a little bit before I can re engage again. So expressing myself authentically was another big issue, because again, learning to be in the closet or living in the closet for so long is the precise opposite of living authentically. And so we talk about authenticity a lot and how great it is. But I think for queer people in general, we have a bigger challenge. Again, there's a bigger, longer Runway there before we can get to it. And so these are some of the biggest challenges, and again, still face that. That fear of visibility for me even comes up in my business sometimes, even as we do this podcast. Right? For sure. So that's still there. It's still lingering. Not to mention we can done many podcasts about this. I don't go too, too much into, but not to mention my relationship with sex itself, as you had said, Matt, shame, our other, is very taboo. And so my relationship with sex already, from being like, Catholic Italian, wasn't great to begin with. But then add the gay factor, and there was just a lot of deep shame, uh, and fear of. Of HIV at the time. Um, every time I looked at the tv and there was gay people on tv, it was some kind of something about HIV AIDS. And so I thought I was going to die. Uh, even though I wasn't actively sexual, I thought I was going to still die. Yet I had this deep desire. I had, like, this internal yearning for, like, dick and men, and I was going through puberty. I'm like, what? What is this? This thing I'm so afraid of? It's also this thing I deeply, deeply desire. So again, whole internal mess right now. What made it worse, of course, was, as I'm probably going to speak for a lot of people in my age range here, or even before me, or even maybe kids today, but parents aren't often equipped with a guide on how to raise a gay child. Mine certainly were not. I had no mentors, I had no role models, and so I got no education on what it meant to be gay and no real exposure to the culture and community. I think that has changed now, I think, which is great. Like, there's a lot more representation of queer people on tv, which is great, but not necessarily for me. So the result was I was kind of going at it alone, and there's a whole internal mess, low confidence, you know, low self worth, hiding myself, not even knowing who I truly was or what I truly wanted or definitely not how to get it. So that, for me, all of the issues that I face and faced as a gay man stem from that very long journey to self love and self worth. It was messy. It was a lot of trial and error, but I got there. And you know what? Going back to our last episode, where we talked about what we love about being gay, I think that's why there's so much strength in our community, is because a lot of us did have this journey. I'm sure for a lot of you listening, this might sound quite familiar to you. So, you know, there's a lot of that, I think. And I. I'm very proud of myself for it. I'm very proud of. As I see other people, you guys are two of them, but it's hard nonetheless. And I think we have to. We sometimes forget that because we don't. We don't know any other way. Um, yeah, and there's a lot of pain in the process. Again, going back to my relationship with sex and intimacy, there was a lot of people that got hurt because of that. And I think a lot of gay inquiry people do unintentionally hurt each other because we, again, we are not equipped. Uh, you know, my story was confusing sex with intimacy, mistaking love for attention and hurting people on the way. So, yeah, I want you guys to think of that time span between the moment you realize you're gay and then the moment you can authentically say, oh, my God, I love this about me. It's years, decades. Some people don't even get to it, and that makes me very sad. And it took me decades. So, frankly, that's my mission. With what I do, with the podcast, with the brotherhood, with my coaching businesses. I want to make that span real short. I want people to be like, I'm gay. Okay, cool. Here are the things that I didn't get, you know, by offering a supportive community of relatable education, emphasis on relatable education, and then mentorship and coaching. Because, quite literally, I think all of the challenges that I faced, I'm sure they would have still existed, but I would have gone through them a lot faster with support, with tools, with education, and I didn't have those things, and I think a lot of people still don't. So, yeah, I think all of my. All of my challenges. And, again, I want to underline this, and I'm happy you mentioned it, Matt, but it's not like I'm cured, and I'm good now. Um, there. They still do pop up a lot from time to time, and people who listen to this podcast know that.
• 14:31
  Speaker A: How old were you when you came out?
• 14:33
  Speaker B: When I came out? When I said it out loud to another human for the first time, I.
• 14:36
  Speaker A: Was 1919 and twelve when you realized it within yourself?
• 14:41
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 14:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's a long seven years.
• 14:44
  Speaker B: Yeah. And at that age, who's equipped to handle that?
• 14:47
  Speaker A: Right? Yeah.
• 14:48
  Speaker B: Yeah. Hmm.
• 14:51
  Speaker A: Interesting. What about you, Reno?
• 14:54
  Speaker C: Well, when you put it that way, like, I knew I was gay, and I certainly knew I was different. Oh, gosh. Like, five, you know, five probably right around there. Very aware at an early age. Also sexually aware at an early age, to be honest. So I want to say something here. I looked it up online, and apparently it was in April 2018 that the Trinidad and Tobago High Court declared the countries buggery law unconstitutional as it infringed on the rights of LGBTQ citizens and criminalize consensual sexual acts between adults. I share that because I'm trinidadian, irish, English, and Scottish. And to me, it paints a picture of, like, the progress we've made and the progress we're still making. And that was only in 2018. Right? It's 2024 now. So to me, it's just really fascinating to look at, and it really feels like it's an ongoing journey for our community to be free, to be as we are, and to move in the world as it occurs to us. For me, one of the initial challenges, and the most obvious challenges was sexual shame. Because when I think of being gay, you know, my understanding of it is that it pertains to our sexuality and sexual orientation specifically. And then there's sort of everything associated with that. You know, there are certain, like, stereotypes that, in essence, are stereotypes, because they're probably characteristics that a lot of us gay men exhibit. Right. But we're not limited to them. We're not beholden to them. And so, yeah, one of the main ones was sexual shame, because I knew very early on that I was attracted to other males. And I think navigating sexual shame, period, is a difficult thing. But navigating sexual shame when you're attracted to someone of the same sex, and at worst, you can be killed, and it is criminalized, and at best, you're free to express it. But certainly it comes with precautions. It's a really challenging thing to go through. And then add to that you're a young boy with little to no sexual education. And if we go back to the times we grew up. And sure, it was better, but still, it was poor. The sexual education and some of the discussions in the spaces that raised us and the places that raised us, be it classrooms or our homes, there was little to no education and support in that regard. And again, those people probably knew what they knew, and they were up against the times and society and rules and regulations and norms and status quo as well. Um, yeah, I say sexual shame was a big one. And then it. It continued through to my teenage years and into adulthood. But what's so interesting is that I was having these two contrasting experiences, because I heard earlier, Michael, you mentioned, um, low confidence and self worth. And what's interesting is I didn't struggle with low confidence and self worth. Like, I was incredibly courageous, incredibly audacious, and incredibly curious. So I didn't really struggle with that so much as it was just made clear to me that what I was up to and who I was being in the world was wrong for some reason. And so I sort of either hid it or watered it down, but it was there to begin with. And so I was kind of living this double life, because the truth of my experience was that I knew I was attracted to other males, and I liked it. You know, to me, it didn't seem wrong, but it wasn't until I started to see that it was a problem for other people, right? And that apparently it was wrong that I started to hide. It really is what happened. And then, of course, there's other elements of my experience, maybe not as tied and tethered to my sexuality, like my femininity and the way I chose to dress and move in the world and speak in the world, and what I was drawn to in terms of entertainment and hobbies. I was also criticized and judged and critiqued for those things, right? Because boys are not supposed to like beauty and the Beast. Boys are not supposed to play with Barbie dolls. Boys are not supposed to pick female characters in video games, right? Boys are not supposed to spend so much time with girls. So there's all of that stuff, which, again, is unrelated to my. My sexuality, but it's still tied into being a gay man or just being me, right? And then I'll just sort of list some of the other struggles, but I won't get into so much detail. But shame around my unique expression on belonging within society, family, and among friends and acquaintances. Confusion around my identity, not fitting into the gay community. That came later, which was unexpected, because I don't know if you all can relate, those of you listening, but I certainly thought oh, I'm going to walk out, and it's going to be. There's going to be a party, a celebration. The doors are going to be open, and it's going to be great, and it's going to be so much fun. And listen, it was in its own way, and also, it was a very sort of out of the frying pan and into the fire kind of experience. Right? So I had to grapple with that. Then there's the piece around race and, you know, go back to previous episodes of this podcast to hear more about what that's like for all sorts of different people, including myself, dating and relationships. You know, there's struggles there because, well, guess what? If there's guidelines and rulebooks and a sort of structure and path cleared and laid out for those of us who are heterosexual, but none of that exists for gay people, well, then, damn, we got to figure it out through trial and error. And we still are. We still are, um, relating to other males. That was another challenge that, um, you know, I still grapple with to this day. Right. How do you contend with, um, being physically, sexually attracted to other males and also being in relationship with them, whether that's romantic partnership or friendship or, you know, um, what have you? So that's sort of the list of challenges that I navigated. Yeah. And I could probably see more, but I think I'll leave it there for now.
• 24:10
  Speaker B: Can I ask you a question, Rena?
• 24:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker B: I'm curious. That age range. So you said that at first there was nothing wrong with it, and then it wasn't until other people started influencing your beliefs that it became a problem. What age was that?
• 24:26
  Speaker C: Um, I was probably, I want to say, like, somewhere around ten years old or something like that. It would have been around ten. Um, you know, somewhere in that ballpark maybe, like give or take, but I'm going to say take more than give because it would have been ten or younger. But what I remember was, um, there were two instances wherever me and another boy, a friend, were caught exploring, right. And the one time I was yelled at, it was. Well, I won't say who caught us because I don't want to bring them into this, but I was yelled at and ran home and then heard my parents yell. Well, I just kind of revealed it, but I heard my parents yelling. They were arguing about it, right? That it had happened. And, you know, I'll just say it. My mom and dad were arguing. My dad was the one who caught us. And I can understand. I really empathize with him because what do you do with that? You know? And so I understand where he was coming from now, and I don't resent him for it at all. At the time, I felt a lot differently. And you can imagine the shame a person would experience when you're engaged in that kind of exploration and experimentation. And then you're caught by your dad and he yells at you, and then your parents are shouting after that, mom defending you and dad reprimanding. Right. And then the other instance was, my friend's mom caught us and she said we couldn't hang out anymore. And, yeah, that was really challenging because I didn't know. Like, to me, I didn't. I didn't really understand what we'd done wrong. I just knew we were doing something that now I can say was taboo, I suppose. Right. But in both situations, it was consenting. Right. It was consensual. And we were, like I said, I mean, at that age, like, my goodness, you know, you're just figuring things out. You're literally pun intended, feeling your way through life, you know? So, yeah, thank you for asking the question. Yeah.
• 27:09
  Speaker B: It just goes to show that homophobia is learned behavior, not natural. Because for those. When you're pretend like a kid doesn't know, that's the beauty of it. You have this childlike innocence, and you're just exploring, you're just playing. And, yeah, I'm happy you mentioned that. But it wasn't until other people with all of our cultural norms start shoving that down your throat, being like, oh, this is wrong. This is bad. People shouting. That's when all of a sudden it's like, oh, wait a minute. What happened? I was just being me.
• 27:37
  Speaker C: And that's because I was good. I was good. It was like the heels, so much fun. The Barbie doll, so much fun. You know, the exploration, so much fun. Like, I was good, you know? It wasn't me. I didn't have a problem with it. They did.
• 27:52
  Speaker B: I wish. I wish I was like that. I thought that I was the problem. I internalized that for a long, long time.
• 27:58
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I get that.
• 28:01
  Speaker A: How old were you when you came out, Reno? Like, out to people?
• 28:04
  Speaker C: 19.
• 28:05
  Speaker A: Okay. So, yeah. All around the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your story brought up a lot for me, Reno, because we're so similar as usual.
• 28:13
  Speaker C: I know.
• 28:15
  Speaker A: So for me, it was five as well, and then I came out at 18. So there was a 13 year period where. Yeah, there was a lot of stuff that happened in those 13 years. I was a little slut when I was younger, like five years old, I think. I told this story on the podcast before. My very first memory, like, ever that I can remember or can recall was when I was probably four. I had an erection and I ran up to my dad and he was laughing, and he said, go tell your mom. My mom was laughing and there was all this, like, confusion and I was scared and there was, like, shame. And so that was, like, one of my very first memories, which was a sexual memory. And then I remember having a lot of, like, arousal with young boys that I was playing with. And then I started playing and being sexual. Around five, six, the first experience I had was with a girl. We were playing house and we were both naked and we were in the bed, and we were, like, rubbing each other, like that sort of thing. Mom walks in, catches us, and she actually, sorry, mom didn't walk in. The girl went and told somebody. My mom ended up finding out. That's how it happened. She sits me down and has this big talk about how that's bad. You shouldn't do this. So again, my very first message around, like, it's bad. Which, again, I have so much empathy for a parent. Like, what do you do in that instance? Like, say good. You know, good for you. Like, this is great, but it's important to have a conversation. But a young brain of mine at that age, like, how do you have a rational, adult conversation about that? Right? So it's like, you know, I think about, like, what I would have needed in that moment. Maybe just like a hug or something or, like, you know, just some co regulation because I was, like, really scared at the time. It's like you're just following these natural instincts or desires, and then you get shamed for it. It's like something's wrong with me. Start to kind of. That's maybe where that messaging first started. And then I go in and, you know, grew up with a group of guys. There was, like, probably seven of us, and, like, four of them we ended up doing stuff with. So I was very, very sexual from a very young age, and I never. And even probably still, like, I don't think sexual shame has ever really been a part of my experience. I've been very, for the most part, like, quite sexual. I remember even, you know, having. When I first started having sex with men, I didn't really have shame around it. I think if anything, maybe there was a bit of shame around, like, bottoming and, like, seeing myself as feminine. That's where my shame comes from. It comes from around this. Like, you know, femininity kind of stuff. And I remember growing up and really comparing myself to straight Mendez and feeling less than. And that was. That's the thing. And I can feel it right now. Like, that's the thing that really gets me and has been the greatest challenge of mine of being gay, is that I somehow bought into this notion that straight men are up here and gay men are down here and that we are right. And so there's. There's just a lot of meatiness around that. And I had a lot of anxiety and awkwardness and discomfort around straight men. And I had a hard time relating to my father when I was younger around some of this stuff because there was just this notion of feeling like they're going to judge me. They're going to think I'm disgusting. And, you know, it's. And this isn't just made up in my mind. Like, I see this on in media. I remember when I got to a certain age in my upbringing where the guys I was hanging out with would start calling each other fags and gay and gross, and you start picking up on this. And then for me, that was when I was like, oh, shit. You know, you have that oh, shit moment that it's like, okay, this is obviously something really bad. Like, I can't be this because when I was young, like, I was. I was actually quite connected to my feminine. And my mom. Like, I have home videos of, and I would. I would be like a little performer, and my mom and sister, I would, like, put on shows for them, and I would be in, like, high heels and my underwear, and I'd put my mom's glasses on and shit, and I would. And I would put my sister's bikini on and put those little loofah things that you like soap up. I'd put them in the bra, and I didn't care. This was probably up until around ten, I was so free, and I would talk in gay voice all the time, and I would put these gay shows on and stuff, and my mom and sister would just die laughing. And it was so much fun. And then I think it was around. Probably around ten something when I started getting those messages. I remember watching the movie Philadelphia and the gay people die. And I was like, oh, my God, if I'm gay, it means I'm going to die. I never made the association with, you have to actually have sex, you have to contract HIV, it has to turn into AIDS. And then it was just like, yeah, if I'm gay, I'm going to die. That's what I thought. And so I was terrified about that. So the biggest, probably now, thinking about it, the greatest challenge for me being gay would be fear. And the fear is really tied into inadequacy. If people see me as this, I will be rejected. I won't matter as much. I'll be less than. So, yeah. And that's probably. That still shows up in my life now. There's this energy around, like, my ego comes in really hard to try and protect me from feeling less than, like, inadequacy is probably a bigger thing for me now in my life than. Than even shame. I think I've done a lot of shame work, but there's still this notion around, like, not good enough or less than energy that I'm. That I'm working on. And it shows up for me in, like, imperfectionism. Like, that's. That's my thing. That's what I go towards. To try and not feel inadequate is, like, I'll try and be perfect. I will compete. I will do these things. And so I've done a lot of work in the last few years on healing this. Like, instead of being, like, no compete, I'm like, okay, I'm going to put myself in situations where I might fail or I might not be good, and I can feel inadequacy and I can move through it as opposed to just constantly trying to avoid it. So. Yeah. And then, like, challenges. Well, again, I'll do what Reno did, like, reading. So there's this feeling that I had when I was younger, and this was one of the greater challenges for me, too, is, like, feeling trapped. I felt trapped in my gayness. I was like, I don't want to be this. I want to be normal. And I felt trapped. And there was this. I remember again, like, I used to even masturbate a lot when I was younger. I was very sexual, and there was this website called gay beef that I used to go to when it. When Internet first came on. And, you know, you could start having these experiences. I was probably, like, I don't know, maybe 16, 1516. And I remember, like, feeling so much desire, right? Move towards us, and it was, like, so exciting. Like, dad's gone, I'm gonna go into the office. I'm gonna have my fun kind of thing. And then afterwards, like, just washed with, like, fear and, like, shame of, like, oh, my God, what if he catches me? These sorts of things. So I always remember desire was so. It was driving me towards my authenticity. I'm a big believer that desire drives us towards our authenticity. But then the aftermath of that was, like, all my desires, like, they're leading me towards parts of me that I'm terrified to be. So that was a big feeling for me, is like being trapped in my desires and feeling like I didn't want to have these desires. I think that was a big thing for me. And then just the life, the childhood that I had, like, growing up in, like, a household that was. There was a lot of turmoil and I didn't, like, my parents were very preoccupied with themselves and their own stuff and their divorce and all these sorts of things. So I feel like I kind of got neglected in a way, and I didn't develop self esteem, really, and self worth. And, like, I'm a late bloomer in this area. I'm learning how to develop these things. And I think that really affected me because trying to integrate something so big as being gay was really hard for me because I think if you don't have the foundation of worthiness, it makes it really challenging. Right. So for me, that was a big piece of. And that led me into my addiction. I think that was a big piece of it. So, yes, childhood trauma mixed with the minority stress trauma, that was how I masked was a big, or soothed, I should say, was a big one. And then challenges living. So I would say these are probably more current for me because a lot of things I talked about, I think I've integrated and done a lot of healing work on them. Like Michael said, there's still things that flare up here and there, and I'm like, ah, yeah, like, that little mini shadow piece is coming forward again. What is that? You know? And then. But now I'm able to get curious about it and work with it. I'm not, like, masking with things and addiction and stuff like that, but feeling like I don't fit into the mainstream gay community, it's just a big one. And it's. When I was younger, I tried to fit in and I did the things that the mainstream gay culture does. And, you know, I had some fun, don't get me wrong, but that's not really who I was. I felt like I had to abandon my truth to. To fit in. And I. So that's a piece for me that I'm still working with. And then attachment injuries, I see this as a big problem in our community and why I do the work that I do is that a lot of us carry attachment injuries. We're terrified of being rejected. We have a lot of wounding around not belonging and stuff. And I think that affects us romantically when we come together to try and, like, I see this a lot, and I own my piece of this, too. Like, I have a disorganized attachment style. I've been working on healing this for a long time, but there's this dance of go in, get terrified, pull back. Go in, get terrified, pull back. And I see this a lot in gay men. I actually think there's probably a high incidence of insecure attachment styles in our community. And I stand by that fully because I see it so much. So that's a struggle for me because I'm like, it's hard. I want intimacy. I want to feel safe in intimacy, but I struggle with that, um, in two. Two sides of the coin. I struggle with that within myself. And I also see it so prevalently in others that I'm like, oh, am I ever going to be able to get to that place where it's like, there's not this feeling of, like, wanting to run or wanting it so much that, you know, you become anxious about it or preoccupied with it? It's. It's interesting. Um, and then another thing that I've str. I still struggle with is building platonic relationships can be hard because there's such a strong emphasis of sex in our culture. And I I'm working right now on building friendship in the community. I've gone off the dating apps in the sense of looking for anything more than just friendship. And I'm finding it hard because I start connecting with guys and they want more and they want to have sex and these sorts of things. And I'm like, I just want. I want gay men that I can be friends with because it's great having straight male friendships. I love that, too. But there's also something special about gay friendship, where you can talk about gay things, and it's like you understand the intricacies of it. So there's a part of me that's like, I don't want to be objectified or I don't want to be desired all the time, I guess. And I understand, too, because I have that as well with guys. Maybe they're really attractive and I desire to have something with them, and maybe they don't want that. So I get it can go both ways, but it does make it challenging because I'm really seeking platonic connection and intimacy in my life right now. And it's like, it's proving to be not as easy to find as I thought or hoped. Yeah, that's my experience.
• 39:48
  Speaker C: Question for you. You mentioned putting yourself into situations that would support you in healing that sense of inadequacy. How did you. Do you remember how you selected? Like, what. What you would engage in?
• 40:07
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 40:08
  Speaker C: Like, what activities you would engage in? How were those chosen and what were some of those activities?
• 40:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, good question. Im still working on this because, like, failing in front of people. Oh, it's like, it's the big. It's the biggest one for me. Like, truly, like, I can handle being rejected, these sorts of things, but failing in front of people, there's just something about it that brings up shit for me. But singing was the one that's the big kahuna. And I'm like, in typical matte fashion, I went for, like, the deep end. I'm like, just throw me in the deep end. It was a lot for me, but that was probably the biggest one is just really putting myself out there. And then going to the retreat in Costa Rica the first time was a big step for me, putting myself out there. Cause I had done online work for six years and I was like, I didn't remember what it was like to be around people in a professional sense. Cause I've done all my work for six years online. So going there and working with people and facilitating and stuff in person was a big step, big risk for me. Yeah.
• 41:06
  Speaker C: And why singing? I mean, I think I know the answer because singing is a big one for me, too. But why is it singing?
• 41:15
  Speaker A: Why is it singing that I enjoy or why is it singing that would bring up.
• 41:18
  Speaker C: Why was that the big kahuna?
• 41:20
  Speaker A: Just. Why was that the big kahuna? I think there's something about singing that. It's like when I'm singing, I feel very, very seen. It's like when I sing, I sing from a part inside of me that is like, it's very emotive, very vulnerable. It's like, it's so when I'm. If I'm singing in front of somebody, I'm sharing, like, my pure soul with them. Right. So that is a big thing for me. It's very vulnerable. And I think part of it, too, is that there's a. There's a high probability of failing in singing. Right. Like, especially because I get nervous to sing in front of people. And then when you're nervous and try and sing, like you're going to make mistakes or you might be off key or whatever, and so, yeah, I think it's just. But it's. It's been good for me. Yeah.
• 42:06
  Speaker C: Thanks for sharing.
• 42:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:08
  Speaker C: So many similarities. It's interesting when you share even you were talking about, like, you were engaging with someone who's female. And that whole situation, I was like, yep, that happened to me, too. I didn't even get into that because this is episode on, you know, gayness. But, yeah.
• 42:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, funny. Okay, our next question is, what's helped you face some of these challenges? So what have you done to get to where you are? And what are you even currently still doing to help you integrate the gay. The gay life?
• 42:45
  Speaker B: Great segue, because everything that you guys both have shared has been so, so relatable. And that's the word that I think helps answer this question for me. Is talking about it. Not just talking about it, but listening. Like, I'm sitting here listening to you guys and thinking, oh, yeah, me too. I get that. I feel that. I know that feeling so, so well. There's so, so much relatability, and that's what has helped me. And I will say this, in the role that I do, it is my mission. I've made it my mission to serve this community. Um, and this has become my life's work. So I do spend a lot of time thinking about this. And, yes, you know, there's. I guess my short answer to this question is, it's those three things that I said I do. I did not have a supportive community, a relatable education and mentorship and coaching. Okay? So I've built my business willismo on those three pillars. Those are the three things that I have built my business on. And I can speak to a little bit of each of them, but I want to really hit on the supportive community piece because that's what we're doing right here. Um, and they all kind of overlap. They're not. They're not, you know, uh, isolated on their own, that there's a lot of overlap between them, the education and the community and coaching and whatnot. But I really want to talk about this piece of, um, relatability and listening to others and being in community. It is so important. And I'm sure you guys have seen this as well. When people come together and share their experiences, as different as we are, by race, by age, by experience level, we have so, so much core humanity in our experience. And I think that is very powerful way to face these challenges. First of all, like, my whole story was, I'm alone in this for so long. I'm alone. I'm alone. I'm alone. No one else has to deal with this. No one else is like me. I'm fucked. Up whatever my story was at the time. And then all of a sudden to be like, oh, wait a minute, I'm not. And this thing that I am is very natural and beautiful and wonderful. And when I see Reno talk about his experience, and Reno kind of gives me permission to have that. Have that flair and to have that sass, right? Like, okay, cool. If he can do it and he's a happy, healthy homosexual, then so can I, in my way, right? And I think it gives us all permission to do that. It gives us a sense of not being alone. So for me, that has been one of the greatest ones. And even when I came out, I've talked to. About when I moved to Toronto, um, in the village, and yes, I was terrified because I was like this little suburban gay boy, and I was like, oh, my God, part of me was so thrilled to be part of this. I'm like, oh, my God, look at all these people having happy lives. Like, they're having fun, they're kissing, they're hugging on the street. They're just having the time of their lives. But again, I didn't know that when I didn't know that, I didn't know what I didn't know. So for me, that piece is a huge part. And then when I say relatable education, um, that could be a lots of different kinds of education. Everything that we guys. That you guys have just talked about, you know, a realistic sex education, what that means, like a sex education without stigma or shame, that is a huge piece of it. Education on how to connect, how to relate, how to speak, how to communicate, how to receive love, how to give love, for that matter, all of these things. So, like, literal education, I think, is very helpful. And the mentorship and coaching piece, which is a lot more in depth one on one end, it doesn't have to be mentorship and coaching. That's just. That's just what I offer through my. Through my platform. But this could also be therapy, counseling, all the things, like, all the modalities. But either way, having that person who is, I would say, queer or LGBTQ informed, at the minimum, um, having that one person who you can trust in that special container, like a professional container, where you can bring a lot of this, too, including things like trauma and addiction, where you can bring that to somebody and really heal. Some of those really deep core things, I think those are the three. Like, those are the three things. Supportive community, relatable education, and also just say professional help, whether you want to call that mentorship, coaching or what have you.
• 46:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I love that. Thanks for sharing.
• 47:01
  Speaker C: Well, the first thing I want to say is I think it's really, really remarkable and beautiful and commendable that within everything that we've just shared and continue to discuss that we navigate on this journey of being gay men that we still show up every day. You know, like, even as young boys, we still got up and went out into the world and braved it and showed up anyway with as much courage and, you know, with as much courage and that's awesome. Yeah. With as much courage and, you know, and audacity as we could. So I think that that's beautiful and commendable. What helps me face these challenges? Well, I'm going to shout out my grandma, who is with us in spirit, not in body, and my mom. I'm going to shout her out, those two people, and especially my grandmother. Especially my grandmother. And it's not to diminish my mom's incredible impact in my life, but my grandmother was just, she was my guardian angel, and she really created a sanctuary in which I could be myself and discover what that even was like. Who am I? What am I interested in? What foods do I like? What music do I enjoy listening to? And there was no shame and there was no judgment. She bought me my first doll and the beauty and the beast mirror. And certainly grandma knew I was gay, you know, and she probably knew that I was sexually explorative as well. And I think that she would have just sat me down and had a dialogue about that, you know, because I suppose she had the capacity to bless her heart, but she really was an angel to everybody she came into contact with. And so I would say, get you. Get you a Kathleen, if you can. That was her name, you know, find you someone, you know, later. It was my mom, and then after that, it was my, you know, one of my besties, Colleen. She was the first person that I came out to, and I remember I was like, wow, we're thick as thieves, you and I. And if you and I are cool, like, if the rest of the world hated me, and it was just you and me, and we were just, like, in this together, and I had you. I'm good, you know, like, I don't need the rest of the world to like me. I've got my friend Colleen, you know? And so from that point on, it just became so much easier. So I would say, yeah, get you a Kathleen. Get you a colleen, you know? But, yeah, just having someone in your corner who, like, who gets you and who stands with you and for you, sees you, celebrates you, encourages you, gasses you up. Like, I mean, to this day, I get by with so much help from my friends, you know, my community, the people around me who just really get me and, like, will hold me when I'm down and, you know, and gas me up when I'm low on fuel. Yeah. So I'd say that. And then lastly, what helped me face these challenges, I think just being really, like, transparent, honest and open with myself about, you know, I'm going to say it. I always use this quote. You could probably hear me say it a million times. If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you. It's for me, it's really that simple and it's that simple, but it's not easy. But that really helped me to really just own, okay, this is what's happening for me. This is what's present for me. This is where I'm at. And to really just own it and reveal it to myself, whether it's in a journal or in an audio recording on my phone or whether it's to a trusted friend and confidant, you know, somebody who I really trust and will cherish my truth, you know. But those two things. Major. Major. Yeah. And then be that for someone else after, you know, after, be that. Be someone's Kathleen, be someone's Colleen, you know, pay it forward. Yeah.
• 52:18
  Speaker A: That's really cute. Yeah. I love that. I love. I remember when you were talking about your grandma last time. I felt all lit up.
• 52:24
  Speaker C: Lover. Lover. Yeah.
• 52:27
  Speaker A: It's so nice that you. I'm a believer that we all, like, no matter what we go through in life, we always, you know, God or whatever you believe in brings us our angels in material form. And it's like, these are the people that you're going to go through this with and turn to them, open your heart to them. And that's really beautiful that you had. Kathleen.
• 52:45
  Speaker C: Yeah, Kathleen. Yeah.
• 52:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I didn't have this down, but I think I gotta. I gotta say that as well. Like, to my, my mom and dad and my sister, like, truly, I came out to them and it was like nothing. At the end of the day, like, my mom was like, yeah, okay, cool. I knew, like, moving on with the day. I told her on Mother's day when I was 18, and she's like, sweet. Awesome. Thanks for the Mother's day gift. Right. And it was kind of like, yeah. She's like, it's funny. I was going to actually ask you today. And she's like, and then you. This is the day that you choose to tell me. So obviously, my mother and I are both Geminis. We're very connected that way. Yeah. And then I think for me, again, there's still some healing taking place. Like, just starting this brotherhood, creating my kind of gay community. Like, that's what I wanted to have for the gay experience. So I'm going to. I'm going to create it. It wasn't there. I couldn't find it. And I could have chosen to, like, wallow in my shit, and I was like, nope, I'm gonna create what I want because it's needed. So having that has been, I think I've integrated a whole new part of myself just in the last four years, working with you guys and having. Being around other gay men that are interested in what I'm interested in. And the brotherhood is attracted. Like, we could say this, even, like, when Callan was here, like, the four of us, we each brought in, like, a percentage of people into this, into the community. And even, like, ellery and all the people that influenced this culture bring in their people. And my people are like the highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive, demisexual. Those are my people. And I have my own sub community within the community, and these people follow my work and we connect and stuff like that. And I'm just so grateful for that because without this, I wouldn't have those people, or at least it would be harder to access or find them. So that's something that's really helped me feel like I'm not alone, because it's one thing feeling alone in the world being a gay man, and then it's one thing feeling alone, being a gay man within the gay community, that's another mini trauma in of itself. So. And then, you know, like years, I've done therapy since I was like, eleven. So that's definitely been a big piece of my growth is personal development, work, coaching, counseling, all the things. Yeah. Counts are connecting with my feminine energy. That's been aware. I've done a lot of healing work. And when I say feminine energy, I'm not necessarily talking about, like, dressing up like a woman. That's not what I'm talking about. Like, that can be a part of it for sure. But, like, I think connecting with, like, my slow down, like, my compassionate, my open hearted, like, my, like, curious side of myself that isn't having to drive things forward constantly and I think. I think trauma for me, put me into hyper masculine, like, wounded masculine energy. And I've had to, like, heal that and, like, connect to, like, like, my slowed down more, like, sensitive nature and, like, connecting with that. Really, that part of me has been really helpful in embracing my gay self as well. And then these are all kind of things that are related to the things I was talking about. So setting strong boundaries with gay men in friendship, if that's what I'm wanting, like, I have to set that. That's my boundary. Like, I want to have a platonic connection with you. I don't want this to go into this other area. Like, having to, like, speak up for my needs is, like, really important. Um, and then practicing being imperfect and humble, like, imperfection and. And being with my imperfections creates humility in my experience. And then that has been really helpful for me. So I've learned a lot in authentic relating. Authentic relating. I attribute into that my growth in the last four years has, like, really been authentic relating has helped me so much. Like, 90% of my growth has come from my authentic relating experiences. And, like, the friends I've made in through authentic relating and the teachings I now teach it and these sorts of things. So that's been. That modality has changed my life, in my, in my opinion. So, yeah. Yes.
• 56:53
  Speaker C: What a juicy conversation.
• 56:58
  Speaker A: So good. Yeah, and thanks for guys. I love that we are, like, it feels cool to, like, hear stories about your childhood. And I love the storytelling of this podcast and, like, learning a bit about, you know, who you were when you were younger and your family and stuff like that.
• 57:13
  Speaker C: It restores that layer of humanity, you know? And, like, one of the. I wrote it down. I wrote it down on paper. I wrote restoring the light, you know? And I really feel like these conversations do that, you know, it's like they restore the light and there's something so sobering and enlightening about them as well, you know? And then we really get to see each other and we really get to connect to each other, like, truly.
• 57:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So I'm going to read the questions again because I want people to leave some comments on YouTube. So what are some challenges you face or still face as a gay man? So let us know in the comments and then what has helped you face these challenges? Yeah, share. Share with the community because this could be a nice episode where people can go and read the comments and, like, feel, like, normalized and humanized. So. And if you have not yet already, come and join us on Facebook gay men's brotherhood. And there's, she's 9000 guys now that we're building a really beautiful community there. So come join us over there. Subscribe on YouTube if you have not already, and leave us a comment. And on a podcast again, please leave us a review. Reviews are really important because people read those reviews. Five star rating, definitely helpful. And then if you want to have the same conversation, the one that we just had, come and join us on the second Thursday of the month for the connection circles. And you can go to gay mensbrotherhood.com to the event section to find out more information about that. All right, much love. Thanks, guys. Bye.