Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Chinese Medicine Explained: Dr. Jordan Barber on Qi, Acupuncture, Herbs & Why Personalization Matters
Transcript
- 35P1 Hol+ S06E11 - Dr. Jordan Barber - Audio - ClipGrowth.com [00:00:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: You can change the way you perceive things. So you can dampen pain signals. You [00:00:05] may still suffer, but you can lessen its blow. You can take agency over what happened [00:00:10] and try to make it more palatable. [00:00:13] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:00:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you lost your leg, you [00:00:15] lost your leg. It's not gonna grow back. You can still smile in the day. You can still watch that sunset, but you [00:00:20] still may suffer, but you bring meaning to life 'cause life is more than just the meat bag that you occupy.[00:00:25] [00:00:25] Dr. Taz: Dr. Jordan Barber is a clinician, educator, author, and published [00:00:30] researcher known for explaining Chinese medicine without mysticism or [00:00:35] oversimplification. Chinese medicine, most chronic disease comes from the mind. [00:00:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: People don't [00:00:40] like to hear that. However, Chinese medicine gives you agency. It makes you [00:00:45] responsible. [00:00:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: We say the heart is the emperor. If the emperor is content and happy, everything [00:00:50] is ruled with regularity and everything is good. If the emperor's agitated, he's gonna do [00:00:55] crazy things. He's gonna yell, he's gonna scream, he's gonna behead people, whatever. Your chi becomes deranged and in the [00:01:00] way. If you keep a peaceful mind and you keep a joyous heart, you should not [00:01:05] have all the diseases of stress. [00:01:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you don't enjoy your life, you have this negative belief system where you are [00:01:10] constantly secretly wishing that bad things are happening. [00:01:13] Dr. Taz: His published research includes studies on [00:01:15] the efficacy of acupuncture and dry needling in the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. He is a [00:01:20] former faculty member in bioscience and acupuncture, and serves on the NCCAOM [00:01:25] AI Task Force. [00:01:27] Dr. Taz: He's also the author of Realigning [00:01:30] Medicine: A Guide for Healthcare Practitioners Building Sustainable Value-Driven [00:01:35] Practices. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Jordan Barber to the show. [00:01:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: This episode is [00:01:40] sponsored by Hol+, a holistic health platform built around education, [00:01:45] personalization, and integrative care. [00:01:47] Dr. Taz: Hol+ blends holistic, integrative, and [00:01:50] functional medicine clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this [00:01:55] podcast, so you're not just treated, you're informed. The platform also [00:02:00] includes holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support [00:02:05] your body at the root level. [00:02:08] Dr. Taz: Hol+ is holistic healthcare [00:02:10] designed for real life. Visit us at Hol+.co [00:02:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: to learn more about [00:02:15] the platform. Again, that's H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O. [00:02:19] Dr. Taz: All right, Dr. [00:02:20] Jordan, I'm super excited to have you here because Chinese medicine [00:02:25] is a huge part of my personal healing journey, and it's actually a significant part of [00:02:30] our practices at Hol+. [00:02:31] Dr. Taz: We actually bring some meridian evaluation, Chinese medicine [00:02:35] evaluation into what we do to help us sort of understand what's going on with the patient, and we [00:02:40] have acupuncturists on the team, herbalists, all the things. So huge fan [00:02:45] of the field. You know, it is ... I always say, I always preface so many things and say it's my [00:02:50] favorite system of medicine out of all of the ones that I've studied. [00:02:53] Dr. Taz: So I'm excited to have you here because you [00:02:55] live, breathe Chinese medicine day in and day out. Talk to us a little [00:03:00] bit about what attracted you to Chinese medicine and how your practice has developed in the [00:03:05] years since. [00:03:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I'm excited to talk about this, and obviously it is my life, like you said. Yeah. [00:03:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: So [00:03:10] I can talk forever. Um, you know, if you've ever seen the movie Office Space? [00:03:13] Dr. Taz: Yes. [00:03:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: I feel like that's my life, [00:03:15] right? Ah. I started in IT. Um, and- [00:03:18] Dr. Taz: IT? [00:03:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, IT. Okay. Networking. [00:03:19] Dr. Taz: [00:03:20] All right. [00:03:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, always was a weird kid, so you know, I had, I guess, predilections [00:03:25] to herbal medicine and everything else. Mm-hmm. I had some stomach issues when I was, like, 15, and I remember taking some [00:03:30] Ayurvedic herbs. [00:03:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, and uh, I went through 9/11. You know, I was there. [00:03:35] [00:03:35] Dr. Taz: You were here in the city. [00:03:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: I was, I was- Okay ... there at the Trade Center. Oh, wow. So you know, and I was 21. [00:03:39] Dr. Taz: [00:03:40] Okay. [00:03:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: I was already dealing with health issues, but at that point I was like, "I don't know if [00:03:45] corporatism is where I wanna be. I like computers. I like systems and networks," which if you read [00:03:50] my book, you'll kind of understand, um, that Chinese medicine is all about these interrelationships- Yeah [00:03:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: and these kind of [00:03:55] networks. Um, so you know, I had all the standard stuff, surgeries, all the, [00:04:00] all the strange things to try to make myself feel better. I was still suffering. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:04:05] looking back, I was burning the candle at both ends. I was living off food carts down in FiDi. Was [00:04:10] doing everything wrong. But within one month of trying acupuncture, which strange, I woke up in a [00:04:15] dream with the word acupuncture. [00:04:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: And I was like, "I know that exists, but is that real?" [00:04:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:04:19] Dr. Jordan Barber: And this was like 2002. [00:04:20] Yeah. So I'm like, "I don't even know how to find it. Are these people [00:04:25] licensed?" Um, I went, but within one month I was about 80% better. Wow. The 20% after [00:04:30] that was a long journey. [00:04:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:04:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: But I was like, "Okay." What was better? [00:04:32] Dr. Taz: What, what specifically got better [00:04:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: for you? [00:04:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I had a lot [00:04:35] of, like, uh, reoccurring sinus issues. [00:04:36] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:04:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: That just would not go away, and when it's ... When you're [00:04:40] constantly sick, your life is drained from you. Yeah. You know, I had sinus surgeries. You know, I, I did all the [00:04:45] things. Nothing worked. But- Change of, um, diet. [00:04:50] I stayed away from dairy for a while, took some herbs, and, and had [00:04:55] acupuncture obviously. [00:04:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: And w- within a month, I was like mostly... I was able to [00:05:00] live. Mm. [00:05:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:05:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Which for a 21-year-old, 22-year-old, that's all I was looking [00:05:05] to do. You know, meanwhile, dealing with where do I wanna be, um, you know, how can I [00:05:10] actually have a life worth living? Yeah. 'Cause 9/11 kinda made me have a perspective of saying, "If I just [00:05:15] died in that building today serving," for lack of a better term, "corporate masters, I don't know if that's the [00:05:20] life I wanted." [00:05:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:05:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: So, um, yeah, I, I went to Chinese medicine and realized there was [00:05:25] no industry [00:05:26] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:05:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: and that was the worst financial decision for the longest time. [00:05:29] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:05:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:05:30] But it all turned out to be fine. [00:05:32] Dr. Taz: So where did you s- where did you... So our [00:05:35] timing is similar by a few years. So I was going through my health [00:05:40] crisis, I was like 25, 26 at the time. [00:05:43] Dr. Taz: By 28, I was done with [00:05:45] the conventional, 28, 29, I was sort of like m- had exhausted all the medical options. Had been [00:05:50] to a ton of doctors over the course of 18 months trying to find answers, and had gone to [00:05:55] this weekend conference in holistic medicine which opened me up to Chinese medicine, [00:06:00] right? Like, I didn't even know it existed, right, going through regular medical school. [00:06:03] Dr. Taz: And so [00:06:05] I sought out, you know, Chinese medicine practitioners, and, you know, their whole [00:06:10] way of interpreting and talking about me in that particular instance was just [00:06:15] so different, you know, from all the experiences I had had and all my training. And it was like, I just, you know, I tell [00:06:20] the story often, and I'll tell it again, but, like, you know, this older Chinese medicine practitioner, [00:06:25] glasses, the whole thing, you know, is, like, waving his finger at me, and he's like, [00:06:30] "Bad. [00:06:30] Dr. Taz: Bad chi. Very bad chi." I'm like, "What? Wait, what does that mean? What does that mean, I have bad chi?" Mm-hmm. [00:06:35] Well, you know, again, they really put me on the path of healing. I started acupuncture. I [00:06:40] got better. You know, again, health is an unfolding journey. Mm-hmm. I learned more about myself over the years [00:06:45] and started to turn things around, but their system of thinking and the way they thought about [00:06:50] things was unlike anything else. [00:06:52] Dr. Taz: Ayurveda might come close, but was unlike [00:06:55] anything that I had really, you know, studied or looked at. And, you know, I [00:07:00] realized there's a place for it in the medical model, you know? And there's an important place for it because it [00:07:05] does connect the dots between systems and emotions and organs and tissues and [00:07:10] all these different things. [00:07:11] Dr. Taz: And so, you know, I set about looking for how to train [00:07:15] and what to do, so I ended up going out west and learning acupuncture there and, [00:07:20] uh, some herbal medicine, but didn't go to the extent that you did where you're, like, a doctor of Oriental [00:07:25] medicine. Can you explain the different credentialing of Chinese medicine practitioners? [00:07:29] Dr. Taz: 'Cause I think [00:07:30] that's important 'cause you have acupuncturists, herbalists, and then you have doctors of Oriental medicine. [00:07:35] [00:07:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the first caveat I would give is we're a young field. [00:07:38] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:07:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: So it's a little [00:07:40] all over the place. [00:07:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. Interesting. [00:07:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: But your, your- I don't want to say basic. Basic is [00:07:45] not the right word, but the entry level practitioners, the standard acupuncturists, um, depending on states [00:07:50] that may mean that they also studied herbal me- herbal medicine or they just specialize in acupuncture. [00:07:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. Um, and [00:07:55] that's your licensed acupuncturist. That's generally the term that's used in most states. Right. Then you [00:08:00] have, um, a professional doctorate, which a lot of people do, and that's, like, an expert [00:08:05] generalist. Um, so that's just going a little beyond studying and just kind [00:08:10] of having ... The focus really is more understanding Western medicine even more. [00:08:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: We have to study Western [00:08:15] medicine and Eastern medicine because we exist in the 21st century. Right. Mm-hmm. But that's more of systems-based [00:08:20] medicine, understanding how to really integrate with the standard medicine. And [00:08:25] then there's the DAOM, which is a two or three year, depending how quickly you want to do it, um- [00:08:30] Kind of expert in field with research literacy. [00:08:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: Ah, okay. And that's kind of what I did. Which [00:08:35] means glutton for punishment. Right. Any of these two, yeah. There's no, you don't get paid more. There's nothing special. Yeah. And for [00:08:40] me, my focus was on pain and something called, uh, psychosocial- [00:08:43] Dr. Taz: Okay ... [00:08:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: um, medicine or [00:08:45] psychosocial phenomena. [00:08:46] Dr. Taz: Gotcha. [00:08:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, which we could talk about, but it's really just fancy way of talking about Chinese [00:08:50] medicine. [00:08:50] Dr. Taz: Gotcha. [00:08:50] Dr. Jordan Barber: So that's kind of what the field looks like now as far as herbalists. Some states require you to be [00:08:55] an herbalist to, to practice. Some states, they weren't really that interested in herbal medicine- [00:09:00] Yeah ... so they just said, "Here's acupuncture, and, you know, if you wanna do herbs, maybe that's okay." [00:09:03] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:09:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, [00:09:05] there are certifications at different levels, um, and that's done by [00:09:10] the National Coalition of Chinese Medicine. Uh, I think they recently changed their name to- [00:09:15] Mm-hmm ... say NCCAOM. There's a new one, I think NC- NICOM. I'm not really sure. Got it. But that's where you [00:09:20] can find those people. They do the diplomat status. [00:09:22] Dr. Taz: Gotcha. [00:09:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: But that's not always required in every [00:09:25] state. So that's what I mean. It's very messy across the board- Mm ... because we're a young profession. And it [00:09:30] does c- create some kind of, I guess, quality control issues. Mm. But we are kind [00:09:35] of at a new resurgence. We are really starting to get it together as a profession even though we [00:09:40] are shrinking in schools. [00:09:41] Dr. Taz: Oh, really? [00:09:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: But the ones that will survive are the ones that are really creating [00:09:45] quality practitioners. So we're in a, a change, but yeah, there's a lot of schools [00:09:50] that have been closing sadly. [00:09:51] Dr. Taz: Interesting. Why do you think they're closing? [00:09:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: A lot of them were kind of, um, [00:09:55] private schools. [00:09:55] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:09:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? And they had a lust for Chinese medicine, but not [00:10:00] the desire to deal with Title IX and Title IV and all these other things, and all the systems that were required. [00:10:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: And it [00:10:05] gets more and more complex- Exhausting. Yeah ... and exhausting. Yeah. And then with the future proposed changes [00:10:10] in student loans, um, it kind of shrinks that availability to [00:10:15] finance the whole thing. [00:10:16] Dr. Taz: Got [00:10:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: it. So Chinese medicine right now, along with many other professions, [00:10:20] isn't necessarily listed on the list of postgra- uh, what is it? [00:10:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: Graduate, [00:10:25] um, allotments of the amount of money that you can have with the proposed changes in the master's degree [00:10:30] programs. [00:10:30] Dr. Taz: Got [00:10:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: it. So it's a mess. But I stay away from all of that now. From [00:10:34] Dr. Taz: all of that. [00:10:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: I [00:10:35] used to be very involved- Right ... and, um, I just wanna treat the people. [00:10:38] Dr. Taz: Well, for a consumer who's [00:10:40] interested in Chinese medicine, right, or, or even acupuncture, is there something they should be looking [00:10:45] for? [00:10:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: So as long as the person is licensed, that means they have passed the exam and the state has [00:10:50] qualified them to be, uh, you know, competent at what they do. So that's your, your [00:10:55] basis. And then like every other doctor- Yeah ... or practitioner you wanna work with, you need to [00:11:00] have a conversation with them. Have you treated this? [00:11:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: How do you treat this? Are you familiar with this? Because just [00:11:05] 'cause you're licensed, and we know this with medical doctors or anyone- Right ... doesn't mean you're conversant in it, doesn't mean [00:11:10] you're very good at it. Mm-hmm. And that's not a slight. You might be good at the thing you're good at, but, you [00:11:15] know- Like we were talking before we started, uh, gynecology isn't my main area. [00:11:19] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. Even though [00:11:20] my main area is pelvic floor. You would think they're related. I could talk about gynecology, and I know my way around [00:11:25] it, but you don't wanna come to me for that because that's- For gynecological issues ... not what I do. So you wanna talk to me about that. [00:11:30] You know, I actually had a discovery call just recently, and it was not really pelvic [00:11:35] floor, but it was stuff down there. [00:11:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. And I was like, "No, you need someone that does that. I don't treat that." [00:11:38] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:11:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: Interesting. A practitioner knows to [00:11:40] stay in their lane is the good practitioner. [00:11:43] Dr. Taz: So let's talk a little bit about Chinese [00:11:45] medicine in particular as a field and as a system of medicine. Now, before we, [00:11:50] the Westerners, got our hands in it, right, it was handed down generationally in terms of formulas [00:11:55] and in terms of practices and things like that. [00:11:57] Dr. Taz: I had a guest on, um, you may know her, [00:12:00] Janelle Kim, who came on, and she had been handed down formulas, you know- Mm-hmm ... over generations of [00:12:05] different things that work, and that was the old way of, of doing things, right? Mm-hmm. Now that we've brought [00:12:10] it in, kind of into modern day, uh, modern day timing or so, you know, [00:12:15] help us... [00:12:15] Dr. Taz: You know, how would you explain... I have my definition for it. How would you explain Chinese [00:12:20] medicine in the simplest of terms? [00:12:22] Dr. Jordan Barber: Ooh, in the simplest of terms. There's so much I wanna say about [00:12:25] that history- Yeah ... and how that went down. We can, we can talk about that. But let's [00:12:28] Dr. Taz: save [00:12:28] Dr. Jordan Barber: that for a second. Yeah. Um, Chinese medicine in the [00:12:30] simplest terms is actually a way of thinking, and that's kind of where the title of my book comes from. [00:12:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because it's a [00:12:35] way that you perceive information. All the modalities, acupuncture, qigong, [00:12:40] uh, herbs, whatever, it doesn't really matter because those are the things that you do to the body after [00:12:45] you understand- [00:12:45] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:12:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: what's happening. So it's a way of thinking and seeing. [00:12:50] That's what Chinese medicine is, and even more so, I think the easiest way to wrap your head around it is [00:12:55] what's uniquely, um, specific about Chinese medicine, and [00:13:00] Eastern medicine for the most part as a whole, is that Eastern medicine has a definition of [00:13:05] health, what an ideal, perfect healthy person is. [00:13:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Any aberration [00:13:10] away from there is disease. [00:13:11] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:13:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: You don't have to have an actual category of disease or a [00:13:15] laboratory finding that's enough to meet a criteria of something. We examine you. We [00:13:20] see what's going on, how different systems are working, how you're eating, pooping, breathing, sleeping, and we start seeing, [00:13:25] "Oh, this is how you're away from that idealized model that no one will ever achieve."[00:13:30] [00:13:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: The closer we get you back to that, disease will disappear. Whereas [00:13:35] standard medicine has categories of disease, and until you fall into it, I don't know, you have a syndrome. I don't know, you don't feel well, [00:13:40] good luck. And that's why it doesn't do as well at chronic care, where Chinese medicine, we [00:13:45] excel [00:13:45] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, I know something is off [00:13:50] in my body, but I don't know where to start, this is for you. [00:13:54] Dr. Taz: That's [00:13:55] why I created The Circle. The Circle is my private community where I and my team [00:14:00] focus on understanding your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and [00:14:05] longevity with real-life guidance that you can actually use. This is about [00:14:10] clarity and consistency and support beyond the exam room and [00:14:15] maybe outside of all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around to. [00:14:19] Dr. Taz: [00:14:20] You can try The Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code podcast at [00:14:25] Hol+.co/circle. Again, that's Hol+, [00:14:30] Hol+.co/circle. [00:14:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: All right, let's jump back into [00:14:35] the episode. [00:14:36] Dr. Taz: They focus on that, right? The other way I've always thought about Chinese [00:14:40] medicine or the way I've tried to explain it to patients is that it's, it's an energetic [00:14:45] system as well, right? [00:14:46] Dr. Taz: They believe in energy. They believe in the flow of energy, and then they will tie [00:14:50] together the physical, the mental, the emotional, like the spiritual. All of that kind of comes [00:14:55] together, you know, in Chinese medicine. Is that a good explanation of it? [00:14:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:15:00] You know, you're asking a person who has nitpicked that so much. [00:15:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:15:05] Yes To a point, because, you know, we've heard the term spiritual bypassing [00:15:10] before, right? Yeah. If we solely just think it's only about energy, which there is [00:15:15] an energetic component, then we are prone to just saying it's your energy only and you [00:15:20] just gotta fix your energy. And Chinese medicine's never seen that and never spoke that way. [00:15:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's [00:15:25] actually how it made its way to the West- Mm ... through certain things, and I could go into that. But it- [00:15:30] it's ... Chinese medicine's very practical. They understood that if a muscle was tight and you put a needle in it [00:15:35] and it twitched and released, you were better. There was no energy there. Right. We could say the chi was blocked, but what's that mean?[00:15:40] [00:15:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right, right. Well, the chi in, in medicine is really metabolism. So that local metabolism is off in [00:15:45] such a way that the muscle was in spasm. By inserting needle, there was an axon reflex and it released. [00:15:50] There's no magic there. And even so, the, the Huangdi Neijing, Yellow Emperor's Classic, which was- Yeah, yeah [00:15:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:15:55] 3,000 years, you know, Han dynasty text, that book was a movement away from [00:16:00] spiritualism and shamanism. [00:16:01] Dr. Taz: Oh, really? [00:16:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: When you go through, it's like there are no demons, there are no ghosts, blah, blah. Ah. They're [00:16:05] not saying they don't exist, but it was a real kind of like nature and [00:16:10] observable signs and symptoms was the core of things. [00:16:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm. If we did this thing, [00:16:15] it would occur, and it's reproducible medicine. [00:16:17] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:16:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Now Chinese medicine is [00:16:20] so rich enough in its observational manners that there [00:16:25] is room for energy and the unsaid and the things that we have not yet defined in medicine. Maybe you could say quantum [00:16:30] medicine, but I don't know anything about that. [00:16:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, yeah. Um, so there is an energetic component because there is an [00:16:35] explanation of things that we don't have a way to explain in modern science right now, [00:16:40] but not everything is energy. Right. And I think that's where we go wrong, where we're like, "Oh, it's, it's all about moving the [00:16:45] chi." Sometimes. [00:16:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Sometimes it's, you know, very simple. Very, very simple. For example, large intestine four, [00:16:50] we all know that. Yep. Hegu. It's one of the things all over TikTok. Yeah. Rub that, it cures practically everything. [00:16:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:16:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: Well, [00:16:55] because of the, the plexus below there, it stimulates the periductal gray. [00:16:59] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:16:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? [00:17:00] So we, we've established that on fMRIs, which means it modulates pain throughout the entire [00:17:05] body. [00:17:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: Okay, we could say we're regulating the chi there, but there's also a very- There's science there ... [00:17:10] substantial thing that's happening there. [00:17:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah, [00:17:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: yeah. But that's the, the beauty. There's, there's not [00:17:15] separate medicine. There's medicine that works, and there's medicine that doesn't work. Mm. [00:17:20] So just because it's alternative, alternative to what? [00:17:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: Medicine that works? That doesn't make sense to me. It's a [00:17:25] logical fallacy. [00:17:25] Dr. Taz: So it really shouldn't be outside the medical model. No. And we shouldn't think that Chinese medicine [00:17:30] is woo woo. [00:17:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: No, and that's what I mean about- [00:17:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah ... [00:17:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: you know, there is an [00:17:35] energetic component, 100%. [00:17:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:17:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: But- [00:17:37] Dr. Taz: There's a lot of science in Chinese [00:17:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: medicine [00:17:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: there's so [00:17:40] much science. Yeah. And it's validated in such a way, [00:17:45] like through fMRIs, to just reproducible science. [00:17:48] Dr. Taz: fMRIs, guys. [00:17:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: Oh, yeah. [00:17:49] Dr. Taz: [00:17:50] Functional, functional MRIs. [00:17:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. Okay. So we, we can see exactly- Right ... what's happening in real time, what parts of the brain [00:17:55] are lighting up, so to speak. Yeah. Or EEGs, et cetera. [00:17:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I think it's, it [00:18:00] is medicine It is just like other medicines. There's a time and place [00:18:05] for everything. If you were just in a car accident, please don't come to me. [00:18:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:18:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? I have [00:18:10] just the worst medicine for you. Right. Sure, we have a history of traumatology, but I really think Western medicine shines [00:18:15] at [00:18:15] Dr. Taz: that. [00:18:15] Dr. Taz: Does a little bit better [00:18:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: at that, [00:18:16] Dr. Taz: yeah. [00:18:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. But when you are suffering, you wanna [00:18:20] have multiple lenses- Right ... to be able to see what's going on. And Chinese medicine is a great lens, and we have tons of [00:18:25] lenses within Chinese medicine. And I think it's a great complementary, [00:18:30] uh, modality to standard of care, but it's not alternative. [00:18:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:18:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's something that should be [00:18:35] evaluated within it. [00:18:35] Dr. Taz: I'm right there with you, and that's what we do in our clinics, actually. We use the diagnostic process to [00:18:40] help identify, and then we'll use conventional labs and, [00:18:45] you know, technology or whatever else to prove. Mm-hmm. You know? And so it's a v- it's a [00:18:50] methodology that we're able to reproduce over and over again, bringing the two together, and it's actually [00:18:55] super fun and incredibly rewarding work at the same time, you know? [00:18:58] Dr. Taz: And [00:18:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: rewarding's that key because [00:19:00] it's so validating. Yeah. And you actually say, "Huh, if this is true, that means there's a lot of other [00:19:05] things that are true." Yeah. "And that the world is a very integrative, cohesive model, not just [00:19:10] medicine. And then what does that say about life in general?" And that's the thing that gave me a [00:19:15] passion when I was searching for something new, and I fell in love. [00:19:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:19:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because it was validating on [00:19:20] so many levels. And every day in clinic, it's validating. [00:19:22] Dr. Taz: Well, let's, let's go into the history a little bit 'cause I do [00:19:25] find that- Yeah ... I don't, I don't wanna spend too much time there, but just maybe a quick blurb on the history of Chinese medicine. It's an [00:19:30] old system of medicine. [00:19:30] Dr. Taz: Right. 5,000 years old is what we usually say. You know, how did it get to [00:19:35] the West? What's the... You talked about the Yellow Emperor's Classic. That's the [00:19:40] textbook that people quote and cite and look at now. Maybe just give us a little sense of the [00:19:45] evolution of it and- So- ... and its landing here. [00:19:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. That's a, that's a core text, and there's many other texts. [00:19:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. And [00:19:50] it's a Han dynasty text, so 300-ish- Mm-hmm ... um, [00:19:55] BC, you know, before the Common Era. Um- You know, from there, each [00:20:00] dynasty had a slight different focus or play or evolution. So I'll just [00:20:05] fast-forward through all that. However, with the Silk Road and everything else, there was interrelationships between Greco-Roman, [00:20:10] um, you know, scholars, and m- medicine, and theories, and Ayurvedic. [00:20:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: They [00:20:15] all intermingle. Mm-hmm. So to say that anything is pure, it's just Chinese medicine took its lens [00:20:20] and adapted it- Mm-hmm ... just like it does in modern science now. Um, we [00:20:25] fast-forward, we get to the last dynasty, the Qing, wh- um, and then from there, [00:20:30] they were being exposed to the British, who were bringing modern early medicine. [00:20:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, [00:20:35] and they were trying to figure out i- what we call flavor and nature. What-- How does this work within their theory, right? How [00:20:40] does aspirin work? Why does it work within Chinese medicine theory? They were always evolving and growing, [00:20:45] which was the beauty of it. But then we had the Cultural Revolution in China, which they stopped all Chinese medicine. [00:20:49] Dr. Taz: [00:20:50] Right. What year is that? [00:20:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: Uh, the Cultural Revolution, well, it goes [00:20:55] through, um, when you had the fall of the Qing, I wanna say that's the [00:21:00] '30s. Okay. And then the Cultural Revolution, I think the peak was in the '70s. Mm-hmm. But through there, everything was, [00:21:05] you know, passe, and I'm not an expert on those timelines. [00:21:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right, just [00:21:07] Dr. Taz: rough. [00:21:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. But roughly. Yeah. But however, [00:21:10] you know, in the '80s and '90s, suddenly Chinese medicine was really important. You had to pay for doctor [00:21:15] movements and everything else. Um, even before then, but, like, it started to really come together as [00:21:20] TCM. Really, in the '70s, you started seeing TCM really come together. [00:21:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:21:25] There's reasons why, and China, and well, bar all those [00:21:30] political reasons. Mm-hmm. But suddenly they were like, "Oh, let's put this together." But now they, they rewrote it in a very [00:21:35] simplified way, which is what we call TCM, Chi- Mm-hmm ... Traditional Chinese Medicine, which is a way to teach people [00:21:40] rapidly, right? So you see bar charts that also look the same as grain production- Mm-hmm [00:21:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: right, that you [00:21:45] would see during the communist, uh- Right ... era there. Um, and you start creating people to [00:21:50] treat people. They didn't have enough regular doctors. But then, uh, you have, [00:21:55] in the '70s, you had ... There was a reporter from The New York Times that went over there with Nixon, had an [00:22:00] appendectomy, um, while having no anesthesia. [00:22:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: He had acupuncture anesthesia. Oh, wow, okay. Or something [00:22:05] like that. [00:22:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:22:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there was a great interest, and that's when it started coming here. But the problem [00:22:10] was that was also the transcendental movement. The Beatles were going to- Oh, yeah. Uh-huh ... to India. And we had no [00:22:15] vocabulary in the West except the text that happened in the '30s and '40s by this Frenchman [00:22:20] called, um, George Soulié de Morant, who was a French bank clerk, who had [00:22:25] no understanding of Chinese medicine, but was eventually a trans- diplomatic translator. [00:22:28] Dr. Jordan Barber: He's the guy that gave us [00:22:30] meridians and gave us energy, because we had no words. Really? Is it [00:22:35] wrong? No. But is it accurate? It's myopic. [00:22:38] Dr. Taz: Ah. [00:22:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? So it, it [00:22:40] suddenly constrained us to just an energetic medicine, and then revalidated by this 1970s [00:22:45] transcendental movement. [00:22:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:22:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the West perceived it in a true Oriental sense, which [00:22:50] is now a very passe word, but the word means to perceive the, the East from the [00:22:55] West. [00:22:55] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:22:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: We were kind of now, how do we put this back together? And then [00:23:00] in the 2000s, there's a resurgence to the classics and starting to bring this ... Even in China, starting to kind [00:23:05] of bring the medicine back to its wholeness again. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, but we're, like I said, a [00:23:10] young profession because it almost disappeared, and a lot of the old doctors [00:23:15] almost vanished. [00:23:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: Are gone. [00:23:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:23:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So some of us are lucky to have kind of passed down [00:23:20] lineages. Like you said, it was handed down. Right. Those lineages still existed, but they went kind of [00:23:25] underground for a certain moment or two, and then we had to re-piece things together. [00:23:29] Dr. Taz: A lot of the herbal [00:23:30] formulas are handed down concoctions, right? [00:23:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: So you have family [00:23:35] variations, but you have the core texts. Okay. The Shang Han Lun, et cetera, which are, like, these core treaties [00:23:40] on how the medicine works. Um, and they all kind of come from different lenses of how would you apply these [00:23:45] different things. Um, but then you have those ways that we changed it. [00:23:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: But what's interesting, there were some [00:23:50] regional changes. Right. Sichuan in the south is very different than the north because they treated different diseases. [00:23:55] They also had access to different herbs. [00:23:57] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:23:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there's so many variations. So sometimes [00:24:00] they say these coveted formulas, as like the formula. I'm like, "Yeah, if you were living in Sichuan." [00:24:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: But in [00:24:05] New York [00:24:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:24:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: that might not be the right herb for you. That [00:24:08] Dr. Taz: might be ... Oh, so interesting. [00:24:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because it's super hot over [00:24:10] there. Yeah. It is humid, but it's really hot. [00:24:13] Dr. Taz: So within your clinic, are you doing a lot of [00:24:15] custom herbal formulations- So- ... or custom formulations? [00:24:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: I do a lot of hands-on stuff, and I [00:24:20] do a medium amount of herbs, but I tend to do custom formulas. [00:24:23] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:24:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:24:25] Partially it's the bias that's been passed by my teachers. I was lucky enough to be passed things, just as we've discussed. [00:24:29] Dr. Taz: [00:24:30] Right. [00:24:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, which does not make me good. It just means that someone explained things to me. [00:24:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:24:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, [00:24:35] and I, I just really feel that customizing things is the best. Now, sometimes people fall into what we call [00:24:40] patents, things that you can just get right off the shelf. [00:24:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: Take it. Sure, it's fine. As long as it matches you [00:24:45] enough, I think it's fine, especially in maintenance. [00:24:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:24:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: But I really think custom formulas is the [00:24:50] way to go. That's how it's always been done. [00:24:51] Dr. Taz: And the biggest complaint I get- [00:24:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm ... [00:24:54] Dr. Taz: [00:24:55] from patients is some of the custom formulas with the herbs and the teas and stuff like [00:25:00] that, like, they get a brown bag. [00:25:02] Dr. Taz: Mm. They don't know what's in the bag, right? Mm-hmm. [00:25:05] And they're like, "I can't do it. I can do it for X amount of time, but it's not something I can keep up with." [00:25:10] Yeah. What's happening there? [00:25:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So- Good medicine is [00:25:15] bitter. [00:25:15] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's the only way I could say [00:25:17] Dr. Taz: it. It's only good if it's bi- if it's super [00:25:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: bitter. [00:25:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, exactly. [00:25:20] I mean, it's... I mean, GMP pharmacies will give you the list of [00:25:25] the herbs, and you should know, but you're gonna be like, "I don't know what this is." Yeah. "It doesn't grow here." [00:25:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there's that [00:25:30] one issue right off the bat. Um, luckily we have progressed, so you can [00:25:35] get granulars, which are kind of decocted and turned into instant tea, [00:25:40] and that is a little more palatable sometimes. [00:25:42] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: You can also get those into a [00:25:45] capsule, and the good GMP pharmacies will capsule your custom formula for a price. [00:25:49] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:25:50] And then you don't have to taste it at all. However, and there's arguments, I won't say what side of the [00:25:55] fence I'm on there, that tasting it is part of it. [00:25:57] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:25:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, not the suffering [00:26:00] part of it- Yeah [00:26:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: but that flavor creates certain reflexes and, and creates [00:26:05] certain changes in the body. You know, if you suck on a lemon, you immediately astringe, you pull in. Yeah. It's very [00:26:10] astringent. So that action is an action on your qi or any action on your metabolism to [00:26:15] pull in. What is that neurological trigger in the body? [00:26:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you don't get that, does it work? [00:26:20] Maybe. [00:26:20] Dr. Taz: Sometimes. Hmm. [00:26:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: I don't know. We don't have data, honestly. [00:26:24] Dr. Taz: Let's talk [00:26:25] methodology for a second. So qi, [00:26:30] shen, symptoms, diagnoses. [00:26:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. [00:26:32] Dr. Taz: Break it all down for us. [00:26:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: Oof. I would say read [00:26:35] my book. Um. [00:26:36] Dr. Taz: Break it all down [00:26:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: in two seconds. So in two seconds. Yeah, no, I'm kidding. Okay, first the big, the [00:26:40] elephant in the room. [00:26:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. What is qi? [00:26:41] Dr. Taz: What is qi? Qi's [00:26:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: a descriptor. Qi by itself means nothing, right? Uh, [00:26:45] although we use it so much that we all kind of know what it means- Yeah ... in the field. So it's the qi [00:26:50] where, what is it? So in medicine, I like to say the easiest way to understand it from a [00:26:55] Western view, in medicine, qi is metabolism, but in a larger sense, not like, you know, the [00:27:00] Krebs cycle, right? [00:27:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: But interrelationship between things in an area. [00:27:05] Proper interrelationship, whether biomechanical or blood flow or [00:27:10] neurological, hormonal, whatever, means it's functioning well. There's good qi, it's fine. [00:27:15] If the area's messed up in some way, the qi is bad. And then we have poetic [00:27:20] ways of describing how the qi went bad, so we know how to make it good again. [00:27:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: Uh, shen is what we [00:27:25] talk about spirit, right? Or the mind or consciousness and, and we, we [00:27:30] tend to s- say across the board that everything starts with the mind. [00:27:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:27:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: But if you fell off [00:27:35] your horse or got hit by a cab, you know, that wasn't necessarily your mind. [00:27:40] Although one could argue maybe you weren't alert enough. [00:27:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:27:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: There's room for interpretation, but we say most [00:27:45] chronic disease comes from the mind. Um, it's rooted in [00:27:48] Dr. Taz: that. Mo- So say that again. M- In Chinese [00:27:50] medicine, most chronic disease comes from the mind. [00:27:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: People don't like to hear that. [00:27:55] However, Chinese medicine gives you agency. It makes you responsible [00:28:00] at the end of the day because if the mind and the [00:28:05] spirit are not in harmony, and they both reside, what we say, in the heart. [00:28:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. We say the heart [00:28:10] is the emperor. If the emperor is content and happy, everything is ruled with [00:28:15] regularity and everything is good. There's peace in the land. Your body is the land. [00:28:20] If the emperor's agitated, he's gonna do crazy things. He's gonna yell, he's gonna scream, he's gonna behead [00:28:25] people, whatever. [00:28:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Your qi becomes deranged in the land. If you keep a peaceful mind [00:28:30] and you keep a joyous heart, you should not have all the diseases of [00:28:35] stress, right? We know what stress does to the body. [00:28:37] Dr. Taz: So they talked about that way back when. [00:28:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: 100%. Okay. So, and we're [00:28:40] talking about sympathetic lock, we're talking about all these other things. [00:28:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: But also, do you enjoy your life? 'Cause if you don't [00:28:45] enjoy your life, you have this negative belief system where you are constantly secretly [00:28:50] wishing that bad things are happening. Mm. That's the thought process, right? I'm really dumbing down- Right ... thousands of years of [00:28:55] philosophy. Right. So we do have that argument. [00:28:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: And, um, uh, Dr. William, William [00:29:00] Morris, uh, was one of my doctoral, uh, professors. He coined the term [00:29:05] eco-psychosocial, and that's why we have psychosocial in my, my degree. Eco-psychosocial was the [00:29:10] term that he coined to say, in a Western term, how we described Chinese medicine. [00:29:15] Because it was how you existed, where you existed, your interactions with [00:29:20] people, and your internal state that dictated disease [00:29:25] That's the truth of Chinese medicine Mm. [00:29:27] Dr. Jordan Barber: And that's the beauty of Chinese medicine. And I say it gives you [00:29:30] agency As a doctor, whatever those titles mean. Doctor comes from Latin [00:29:35] docere, right? Docere means to teach or to have knowledge of. I don't heal anyone. I don't have any [00:29:40] magic, right? I can help you, I can guide you, but you have to take control over [00:29:45] it, and Chinese medicine does that. [00:29:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: You're gonna come in, maybe we put some needles some places. We do some other things. [00:29:50] We give some herbs. But you also have to stop eating the cheeseburger five times a week- Right ... if the [00:29:55] cheeseburger's your problem. You also have to go to sleep and not stare at the phone. You have to wake up with [00:30:00] regularity. [00:30:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you hate your mate or partner, you need to leave. [00:30:04] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:30:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: And [00:30:05] if you hate your job, you need to change it. [00:30:06] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:30:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Otherwise, Chinese medicine says you will continue to suffer in [00:30:10] some way, shape, or form. [00:30:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:30:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Now, that's not also to say we don't want to spiritually bypass that. You're the [00:30:15] problem for your cancer. [00:30:16] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:30:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Like, just because now you got happy, your [00:30:20] cancer's gonna go away, I don't know. Right? And you have, uh, what's it, Gabor Mate- Yeah, [00:30:25] yeah ... who does say that. [00:30:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:30:27] Dr. Jordan Barber: Maybe. Life's complex, [00:30:30] so we don't wanna just make everything so simple. Right. But that is the essence of Chinese medicine is [00:30:35] you have agency over your life. [00:30:36] Dr. Taz: I love that message, though. And it's beautiful. It's an empowerment message versus [00:30:40] something's wrong with you and we need to fix you, you know? You [00:30:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: don't need to choose to suffer. You may suffer, but you could choose to be [00:30:45] happy while you're suffering, which is a very weird statement. Hmm. You can change the, the perception, and there's [00:30:50] always a way that you can leverage your state or your mind, and there's plenty of cases throughout history of [00:30:55] people that have suffered immeasurable things but were still joyous- [00:30:58] Dr. Taz: Hmm [00:30:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: even under [00:31:00] duress and pain. [00:31:00] Dr. Taz: So let's break that down- Hmm ... for just a minute because that, that's one that's hard for the Western [00:31:05] mind to get around, right? You're in pain. [00:31:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:31:07] Dr. Taz: You're hurting. [00:31:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:31:09] Dr. Taz: You're suffering. [00:31:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:31:10] Mm-hmm. [00:31:10] Dr. Taz: Yet you can be joyous. [00:31:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. Neuroplasticity. [00:31:13] Dr. Taz: Help us with that. [00:31:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, [00:31:15] neuroplasticity. [00:31:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: You can change the way you perceive things. So you can dampen [00:31:20] pain signals. You can change how or why you feel you're [00:31:25] suffering. You may still suffer, but you can lessen its blow, and if you can [00:31:30] find meaning or existence within that suffering, you can invert that. Hmm. And we see that through the [00:31:35] saints- Mm-hmm [00:31:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: in all religions of how many suffered but still served people and helped [00:31:40] people. That's kind of that perspective there. Now, we're taking a very, like, outside- Right ... of the [00:31:45] bell curve. Rare. Generally, most people, look, there's terrible things that happen to people, [00:31:50] and we don't wanna devalue that- No ... when we say it. [00:31:52] Dr. Jordan Barber: But you can take [00:31:55] agency over what happened and try to find as many levers to pull [00:32:00] to make it more palatable. [00:32:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:32:03] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? If you lost your leg, you lost your [00:32:05] leg. It's not gonna grow back, right? But you can still [00:32:10] smile in the day. You can still watch that sunset, right? You can create really great [00:32:15] relationships with people. [00:32:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: You still may suffer, but you bring meaning to life 'cause life is more than just the meat [00:32:20] bag that you occupy. [00:32:21] Dr. Taz: What are some simple ways people can [00:32:25] S- you said, you gave this analogy of, of, of pulling levers, right? What are, what are just some [00:32:30] simple things people can do to start to... They're in a tough place or a tough spot, they're suffering- [00:32:35] Mm [00:32:35] Dr. Taz: right? Whether it's from a disease or a situation or whatever, financially, whatever it may be. What [00:32:40] are some of the things that they can start to do? [00:32:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: So barring a full consult with a Chinese practitioner who [00:32:45] can- [00:32:45] Dr. Taz: We're stealing your brain right now ... [00:32:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: right, you know, figure out, because it's not simple, and that's the problem. [00:32:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: The [00:32:50] medicine's simple, but the pra- the practice of the medicine- Practice is not ... is an art. [00:32:54] Dr. Taz: Yes. [00:32:55] [00:32:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? And so Dr. Peter Caron, who wrote the book with me, who's a phenomenal practitioner, we started [00:33:00] using the word levers within our book. I like [00:33:01] Dr. Taz: that, [00:33:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: yeah. Right? Because it's understanding the system as a [00:33:05] whole and finding where that leverage is, because that's the art of Chinese medicine. [00:33:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:33:10] I would say you almost can do an examination of the mind because if we're, we're taking a premise that if [00:33:15] you have a calmer heart and a different outlook, you will start feeling better. You will be more [00:33:20] parasympathetic. That's a fact. So you can start saying, "What is your circadian rhythm like? Are you going to sleep at a [00:33:25] regular time? [00:33:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Are you consuming media that makes you enraged? Are you worrying about things that you [00:33:30] have no control over?" Taking, like, a stoic view of things, right? Mm-hmm. Those are [00:33:35] simple things, but then we're talking about food and diet and everything else. Are you eating [00:33:40] healthy? Now, Chinese medicine, thank God, does not really have a true, "You must be vegan, you must [00:33:45] be that." [00:33:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right, right. No. You must eat things that are good for you. If you notice the giant [00:33:50] bag of gummy worms you eat every night, which might be me- ... is affecting your digestion, you need to cut [00:33:55] down the gummy worms. You probably can still have them, but less. [00:33:58] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:33:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: These are the [00:34:00] levers over time. If you don't have positive interactions and relationships, create [00:34:05] positive interactions and relationships, whether it's through therapy or [00:34:10] socializing or getting on the internet and making friends. [00:34:12] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, it's a modern world. These are [00:34:15] simple levers. But to just say, "I don't know. Someone needs to fix me," [00:34:20] that's the opposite of agency. [00:34:21] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:34:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: And that's what I don't do, and that's what no one in [00:34:25] Chinese medicine does. Sometimes you come in and you get fixed, especially a stiff neck, very easy. [00:34:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, yeah. I fix [00:34:30] that. [00:34:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:34:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: But the way you're lifting in the gym, you need to change that or it's gonna come back, or the way you sit at your [00:34:35] desk. [00:34:35] Dr. Taz: It's such a, like a paradigm shift almost- Yeah ... for how to think about yourself and your body, [00:34:40] health- Mm ... healing, community- Mm ... the situation you're in, so much more. [00:34:43] Dr. Taz: And, you know, um, [00:34:45] I talk a lot about that in some of my books as well, about how these roads converge. Mm-hmm. Your [00:34:50] physical health converges with your emotional health and the decisions you make, and [00:34:55] it works the other way as well. So I, I love Chinese medicine for really approaching [00:35:00] things that way. [00:35:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. You've spent a lot of your career in pain- [00:35:03] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm ... [00:35:04] Dr. Taz: management, [00:35:05] pelvic floor. [00:35:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:35:06] Dr. Taz: Can you talk about w- pain [00:35:10] in general and what's happening there? We have a lot of people in chronic pain- Mm ... of [00:35:15] different intensities, right? There's low grade pain, neck hurts, back hurts, wrist hurts. I have [00:35:20] rotator cuff. [00:35:20] Dr. Taz: Mm. You know, I ruptured my Achilles at one time. Better now, [00:35:25] but at one point I was in pain, you know. Mm-hmm. W- what's, what's happening in the pain [00:35:30] pathways? How does Chinese medicine treat pain? [00:35:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: So Chinese medicine first treats pain [00:35:35] The same way it treats everything. It looks at you as a whole. What's going on? [00:35:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: Is [00:35:40] this a biomechanical issue? Because if it's biomechanical, we fix the biomechanics, pain goes away. [00:35:44] Dr. Taz: [00:35:45] Right. [00:35:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: Is there some scar tissue? Maybe we break it up with needles. If, if it's a lifestyle [00:35:50] issue and you're stressed all the time and you're stuck in a, like a sympathetic state, and maybe [00:35:55] now, um, you're moving into, uh, maybe a form of central sensitization where the [00:36:00] CNS is overactive now, and therefore normal sensory signals are amplified, [00:36:05] so it feels like pain. [00:36:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Well, then we're gonna work which classification of points, if you remember Hua [00:36:10] Tuo Jia Ji points- Mm-hmm ... the paraspinal points. But these are spinal segments, which is where the information comes in, and we're gonna [00:36:15] change the reflexes there to down-regulate that pain signal. If it's [00:36:20] nerve entrapment, we're going to, again, look at the biomechanics, but also create maybe millimeters of space [00:36:25] through different modalities: stretching, needling, et cetera, dry needling, et cetera. [00:36:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:36:30] Um- If it's an inflammatory process, we're gonna look at why are you inflamed, [00:36:35] right? So is that diet? Is it lifestyle? These are all the things that go into it. [00:36:40] Now, for me, most of my people are biomechanical or [00:36:45] neurological issues, um, just because of the population. [00:36:48] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:36:48] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I stay a lot more [00:36:50] in that. Most people aren't systemically inflamed. [00:36:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: They might have some inflammation- [00:36:52] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:36:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: but that's not the reason why they're in pain. [00:36:55] It might be, like, one of the things in the bucket that was too much and sunk the bucket, [00:37:00] so to speak. Mm-hmm, [00:37:00] Dr. Taz: mm-hmm. [00:37:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: But it's not their main issue. Most of them are biomechanics, weekend [00:37:05] warriors, um, post, uh, childbirth. [00:37:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: Things [00:37:10] like that can create a lot of different issues. Spinal segmental dysfunction, having injuries, [00:37:15] herniations, et cetera, that's the swath of what I see. Mm-hmm. So that's the stuff that I kinda [00:37:20] work with mostly in my clinic, but it's not to say that when I notice that there's other things [00:37:25] going on that we say, "Hey." [00:37:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: I do a lot of vagus nerve stimulation via, um, via the [00:37:30] ear, actually, so using electroacupuncture. So the symbacchia of [00:37:35] the ear, which is a, a piece of the ear, the ear has a bunch of different names, is solely innervated [00:37:40] by the vagus nerve, the auricular branch. It's 100% innervated. So [00:37:42] Dr. Taz: we're seeing a lot right now on social and everywhere about- [00:37:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:37:45] Yeah [00:37:45] Dr. Taz: vagus nerve stimulation and [00:37:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: people- But when you look at the vagus nerve stimulation, where they're doing it, it's like parts of the ear and, and areas that [00:37:50] might not even be fully innervated. So what i- [00:37:51] Dr. Taz: what is vagus nerve stimulation? Let's just start there. [00:37:52] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the, the vagus nerve is really responsible [00:37:55] for sympathetic/parasympathetic state. [00:37:56] Dr. Jordan Barber: Stimulating that brings you to a parasympathetic rest and digest state. [00:38:00] So most of us will say that we are stuck in this fight or flight, you know, [00:38:05] position in our lives. Right. So by bringing, stimulating that, we can bring the body [00:38:10] more into a, um, lability between the two because you, you don't wanna be stuck solely [00:38:15] parasympathetic either. [00:38:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. You want to be able to be, uh, up and down, right? You wanna [00:38:20] have action and rest. So it is really a biohack, but when you're [00:38:25] stressed and you've maybe had tons of trauma or you're under so much pain, [00:38:30] one of the things is to get the body into that restorative state is you have to bring it more closer to that [00:38:35] parasympathetic state. [00:38:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. So by doing stimulation, you could do it. I do it by the ear using [00:38:40] electro stim, but there are other ways. Is that right here? Yeah. Okay. So the, the symbacchias- Yep ... you know, right [00:38:45] here. Yep. And, you know, whether putting needles in there and, and attaching electrodes or I'll take small TENS [00:38:50] pads and just stick it there because- I get a larger area, and it works just as fine. [00:38:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. And [00:38:55] actually, there's very specific research that says 25 hertz [00:39:00] milli current is, like, the tried and true stimulation. And you'll see all these very expensive machines, [00:39:05] which I have bought all of them because I'm addicted to technology. [00:39:07] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh. [00:39:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: And you look at their frequencies, and you're [00:39:10] like, "Hmm, there's not a lot of research behind it. [00:39:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: What is it doing?" Some of it's micro current. It might still. [00:39:15] It is definitely stimulating it. But you wanna just look at that, that clear research out there and get [00:39:20] the b- best bang for your buck. So I'll use that a lot when I'm doing neuromodulation, which [00:39:25] is electroacupuncture- Mm-hmm ... to bring the body back to either neuromodulate it, [00:39:30] neurorehabilitate it, and bring it back to a calmer state, and start getting nerves to [00:39:35] fire correctly. [00:39:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, you can stimulate, uh, nerve growth factors and other things like that with [00:39:40] different recruitment of receptors and everything else. It gets pretty technical, but electroacupuncture's [00:39:45] phenomenal what you can do. So there's a whole neuroscience behind this. And notice I [00:39:50] didn't talk about qi, but it's qi. [00:39:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:39:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's the interrelationship of what's going on there, sure. You have stagnant [00:39:55] qi, it's bad. [00:39:56] Dr. Taz: How many treatments usually, or how long does it take for someone to get better [00:39:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: and- Depends on [00:40:00] what they have going on. [00:40:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:40:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? My, my tried and true, like my marketing [00:40:05] is [00:40:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:40:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: is, is silly because I literally say, "If you're not seeing changes by [00:40:10] the fourth or sixth session, I'm not gonna get you anything by the 10th or 20th session." [00:40:14] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:40:15] That's a good, that's a good framework. [00:40:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Now, the reason why is I'm niched. I know [00:40:20] exactly. If you're coming in for digestion issues, that's a whole different place. Right. But [00:40:25] for shoulder pain or for pelvic floor dysfunction, there's only so much needling that's gonna [00:40:30] be done there, and those muscles are going to soften. [00:40:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: And once they're softened, if you still have [00:40:35] dysfunction, there's something else. Else going on. And I'm not the right person, and I'm gonna refer you. I work [00:40:40] hand-in-hand with pelvic floor PTs. [00:40:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:40:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: I think it's the gold standard. [00:40:42] Dr. Taz: Okay, let's talk about the pelvic floor- Yeah. Love it ... because we see [00:40:45] so many men and women- [00:40:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm [00:40:47] Dr. Taz: with different manifestations of pelvic floor [00:40:50] dysfunction. Mm-hmm. Right? It could be pelvic pain, could be incontinence. Mm. It could be bladder [00:40:55] spasms. It could be lower back pain. It could be the anteverted uterus. Mm. [00:41:00] You know, re- I mean, sorry, the retroverted uterus, um, having that pelvic tilt- Mm-hmm ... that's then [00:41:05] causing hip dysfunc- I mean, I could go on. [00:41:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Right? There's pelvic congestion syndrome. There's endometriosis. [00:41:10] Mm. PCOS. So all of that to say, what's going on with the pelvic [00:41:15] floor? [00:41:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. So at first we'll say 60, roughly, depending on the study, 60% of [00:41:20] women will have some sort of pelvic floor dysfunction within their life, and depending on studies, up [00:41:25] to 20% of men. [00:41:27] Dr. Jordan Barber: But when you look for pelvic floor care, it's one of the places where [00:41:30] men are just- [00:41:30] Dr. Taz: They're [00:41:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: ignored ... there's, there's nothing. [00:41:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:41:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, but men also have no clue what the pelvic floor is. Go [00:41:35] ask any guy, "I don't know what a pelvic floor... I know what my pelvis is." Mm-hmm. Um, so in pelvic floor [00:41:40] dysfunction, the ma- majority of stuff that I have, uh, is pain, pain anywheres down [00:41:45] there. [00:41:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: I could start with some back pain, but it stems down to the perineum or defecation-based [00:41:50] pain, um, incomplete voiding, urgency of urine, [00:41:55] right? Things like that. Stress incontinence, especially, uh, after birth. Um, [00:42:00] and then vulvodynia, painful insertion, painful sex, um, a lot [00:42:05] of erectile dysfunction, which- It is like a huge thing for men's [00:42:10] pelvic floor. [00:42:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:42:10] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, because when you actually understand what's going on there, it's wild, 'cause we only use [00:42:15] PDE5 inhibitors. That's the standard care, and it, it makes sense in a certain patient population, but [00:42:20] a 25-year-old man- Right ... that's suffering from ED- [00:42:22] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:42:22] Dr. Jordan Barber: that makes no sense. I mean, it'll help, [00:42:25] but like, it doesn't make that much sense. [00:42:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. Um, so those are the things I really see is mostly pain. I s- I [00:42:30] tend to see hypertonic pelvic floor. When you're hypotonic, weakness, which is a [00:42:35] more aged population, they need a different standard of care. So needling that pelvic floor and trying to [00:42:40] soften it is the wrong thing to do. Mm. They need to be uptrained, and that's where PT's very good at.[00:42:45] [00:42:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, but a majority of the younger population is hypertonic, [00:42:50] too tight. [00:42:50] Dr. Taz: Why [00:42:50] Dr. Jordan Barber: are we so tight? Compression on the nerves. [00:42:53] Dr. Taz: Are we sitting too [00:42:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: much? I have ideas. [00:42:55] I think partially sitting too much. [00:42:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:42:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: We also like to be weekend warriors- Mm ... [00:43:00] especially the men. Yeah. We, they go out, they, they do all these things, and then they go sit for five hours in front of a computer- Right [00:43:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:43:05] eight hours in front of a computer. Then they go deadlift 300 pounds and they- Right ... right? And they don't even notice. [00:43:10] They're like, "Oh, my butt hurts," but that was 'cause they're just doing a squat. But it's like, it actually is [00:43:15] radiating to the perineum, or there's pain after ejaculation. Mm-hmm. They're just like, "Oh, [00:43:20] that's probably from the gym." [00:43:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: No, that's an early sign, and it's going to get worse. [00:43:24] Dr. Taz: [00:43:25] Mm. [00:43:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Things like that. Um, women are so much more on top of it, but we have a big [00:43:30] issue where urology and gynecology barely even understands pelvic floor therapy- Right ... physical [00:43:35] therapy. [00:43:35] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:43:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, luckily in New York City, we're, like, very on top of stuff, but even [00:43:40] here, but you just go north of the city, there's no one. [00:43:43] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:43:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, so [00:43:45] pelvic floor care is so crucial, and you probably have pelvic floor dysfunction and you don't even know it. [00:43:49] Dr. Taz: What are signs of [00:43:50] pelvic floor dysfunction? [00:43:50] Dr. Jordan Barber: I mean, the, the hidden signs is slight urinary leaking for men or women. [00:43:54] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:43:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Just [00:43:55] after voiding, right? After urinating, just a little, little left there. [00:43:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: "Eh, I'm getting older." [00:44:00] No, you have some pelvic floor dysfunction. Oh. It's okay, but you have some pelvic floor dysfunction. [00:44:05] Um, I said for men, weakness or erectile dysfunction. Pain [00:44:10] after, uh, defecating or pain around the, the tailbone is very common, [00:44:15] coccydynia. Um, just little hints of that. And they're like, "Oh, it's really my hip," because it might also be stemming [00:44:20] from the hip. [00:44:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. Obturator internus, or numbness down there is a huge thing. Pudendal [00:44:25] neuralgia, it could be numbness or it could also be pain, and there's the pudendal nerve that [00:44:30] runs through the obturator internus muscle, which is a hip muscle, gets compressed and chaos ensues. [00:44:35] [00:44:35] Dr. Taz: So hip pain could be pelvic floor dysfunction- Yeah [00:44:37] Dr. Taz: as well, right? [00:44:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: I say back pain can be. Back [00:44:39] Dr. Taz: pain. [00:44:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: I, [00:44:40] at this point, the pelvic floor to me is, like, the entire body. [00:44:43] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:44:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because the [00:44:45] adductors, the ankle, your gait can throw off the pelvic floor. Mm-hmm. So most of the cases that come [00:44:50] in This is where I differ from pelvic floor PT, um, is I'm looking at those [00:44:55] fascial lines. [00:44:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: In Chinese medicine, it's called the jing jin or the sinew channels. Mm-hmm. But it's the, the fascial lines. [00:45:00] I'm looking at the integration of the whole and seeing how that pelvis is functioning and moving, [00:45:05] how tension plays throughout. It's like a game of Jenga, right? If one thing moves, for you to [00:45:10] stay upright, something else has to move. [00:45:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So if the adductor goes out, well, something else in the hip's [00:45:15] gonna go out. [00:45:15] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:45:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: If that happens long enough or you're under enough duress or strain, you're gonna start getting [00:45:20] dysfunction. [00:45:21] Dr. Taz: So will acupuncture help the tightened pelvic floor? What [00:45:25] else from Chinese medicine helps the tightened pelvic floor? [00:45:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: So we specifically use a subset, which is called dry needling. [00:45:29] Dr. Taz: [00:45:30] Okay. [00:45:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, and mostly because it's a non-retention art, and it's immediately, um... [00:45:35] It's very good at getting quick results- Mm-hmm ... and softening the muscle. You don't wanna sit on a [00:45:40] table with needles deep in your genitalia region for 40 [00:45:45] minutes, you know, listening to new age music. [00:45:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. It's probably no one's idea of a good time. Right, right. We're talking in and [00:45:50] out, get a release. Got it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we do that. Herbs are useful when they're useful. [00:45:55] So in urination issues, uh, sometimes, and then I do a lot of neuromodulation, especially in [00:46:00] urinary, um, voiding disorders, um, or just when there's kind of [00:46:05] tension that just won't go away. [00:46:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, I'll run small impulses through the pelvic floor, especially those, like, layer [00:46:10] three deeper muscles, levator ani muscles- Mm-hmm ... which are deep, deep pelvic floor muscles. Sometimes it's [00:46:15] hard to get even with the needle. We'll get close to it, and then I will Depolarize the [00:46:20] entire region [00:46:20] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:46:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. [00:46:21] Dr. Taz: Yeah, so I ruptured my Achilles, uh, this Achilles in '22, [00:46:25] the left. [00:46:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:46:26] Dr. Taz: Recovered, but then started to have some plantar [00:46:30] fasciitis in the right- Hmm ... probably 'cause of my gait [00:46:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: off. Compens- yeah, it's the [00:46:33] Dr. Taz: gait and compensation. And then- But [00:46:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: that had to translate through your [00:46:35] pelvis. [00:46:35] Dr. Taz: Exactly. It had to. And so then I know my right hip is now higher than my left hip- [00:46:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm [00:46:39] Dr. Taz: which has then, [00:46:40] then started some lower back pain and left hip pain. Yeah. So then n- once I became aware, and [00:46:45] then the other thing I noticed is I had this big anterior tilt, right? Because of those issues, yeah. This huge sway [00:46:50] in my, like, back because of all of this. So after I've been working a little bit more aggressively on [00:46:55] lower core work- Mm-hmm [00:46:56] Dr. Taz: and trying to strengthen and do all this other stuff, I can see it [00:47:00] going away, and the pain's going away too over time. Yeah. I haven't yet done the acupuncture and the needling and all- Yeah ... those [00:47:05] different things, so. [00:47:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, and, and general standard acupuncture is very good for more [00:47:10] systemic- [00:47:10] Dr. Taz: Right [00:47:10] Dr. Jordan Barber: like interrelationships. Um, for me, I tend to predominantly [00:47:15] use dry needling 'cause I just got too much to do. [00:47:17] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:47:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I'm working there, which is a subset of [00:47:20] acupuncture. Yeah. So it's still acupuncture, but. [00:47:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah, so interesting. So pain, pelvic floor, [00:47:25] again, you know, responsive to some of these modalities, for sure. [00:47:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. I, I don't know [00:47:30] how much you work with herbs, but I get these questions all the time. What are your top five favorite, [00:47:35] quote-unquote, Chinese herbs? [00:47:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: See, I hate that question. And, and- I know [00:47:38] Dr. Taz: you do. That's why [00:47:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: I asked [00:47:39] Dr. Taz: [00:47:40] it ... [00:47:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: because, because it's the wrong way- It's so... I know ... of using Chinese medicine. [00:47:43] Dr. Taz: I know, I know. [00:47:44] Dr. Taz: Right? [00:47:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: But that's a question people ask- [00:47:45] I love herbs- ... [00:47:46] Dr. Taz: all the [00:47:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: time ... like goji tea I love, but that's 'cause I just wanna eat it. It's tasty, [00:47:50] right? Yeah. Um, as a man, I like certain herbs for me because of my [00:47:55] own problems, right? Right. So I'm what we call tend to be yang deficient. Yeah. I'm 46. Yeah. I'm getting [00:48:00] older. [00:48:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:48:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I love lu rong, which is deer antler, deer antler velvet, right? Yeah. Things like that. But [00:48:05] it tastes terrible. Yeah. Um, but we know that it increases IGF-1, right? So [00:48:10] it's a major stimulator. But I'm not gonna tell people to take lu rong- Yeah ... if they don't need it. Why [00:48:15] would you do that? [00:48:15] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:48:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I hate that. [00:48:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: I mean, great digestive herbs are great digestive [00:48:20] herbs, but even there, the people who need ginger are not the people who need mint. It's [00:48:23] Dr. Taz: personalization. [00:48:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's [00:48:25] personalization. Yeah. And that's why I hate the question. Not because it's a bad question- Yeah ... but [00:48:30] because anything I say would be the wrong thing. [00:48:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Well, this is a common question. Yeah. This is... Well, this is the way people [00:48:35] think. [00:48:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's TikTok now. [00:48:36] Dr. Taz: Exactly. [00:48:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. [00:48:37] Dr. Taz: That's the way people think about Chinese [00:48:40] medicine. This is social media. This is TikTok. But speaking of which, Gen Z is dialing [00:48:45] into Chinese medicine. What do you think is going on there? [00:48:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: So Gen Z is [00:48:50] turning to integrative medicine and alternative medicine. Yeah. But you have to look how they grew up. They're first [00:48:55] fully online- [00:48:55] Dr. Taz: Right ... [00:48:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: you know, generation. They grew up through financial issues, COVID. They've [00:49:00] lost trust in any systems. [00:49:01] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:49:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: They also want personalization. You know, uh, the, the saying [00:49:05] is that they, they want their medicine as personalized as their Spotify list. [00:49:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah . [00:49:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? They want it to know them. They wanna be seen- [00:49:10] Right ... and heard. Right. As all of us do, but, like, Gen Xers like myself or whatever are like, "Eh." [00:49:15] He's not paying attention to me. I don't care. [00:49:17] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:49:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: Whatever. Like, he's just a bad doctor. Right. I don't take it personal. Right. [00:49:20] They're like, "Why are you not paying attention to me?" [00:49:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. They're also dealing with new issues at a younger age. [00:49:25] Yes, for sure. Stress and everything else, and how that's affecting them, and they're very aware of it because they're [00:49:30] fact-checking everything because they have AI. They have computers. 'Cause they can, yeah. They can. [00:49:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:49:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's not a bad thing, [00:49:35] right? [00:49:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's just a new generation, so they're turning to it. And then of course, [00:49:40] influencers, which we love and hate, right? Mm-hmm. You, you know, social media's done wonders of exposing everything, [00:49:45] but you can't go on a 45-minute discourse on herbs on [00:49:50] TikTok. Right. It's just not gonna happen. Right. You're not gonna get the, the, the, the bites on that, right? [00:49:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: But [00:49:55] you can easily say, "Oh my God, ginger is phenomenal. I've been drinking this ginger tea, and my digestion's great, and I'm not [00:50:00] bloated." The problem is everyone goes and drinks ginger, and those that have ulcers and hot issues, that's the [00:50:05] worst herb for them they can get. Right, [00:50:06] Dr. Taz: right. [00:50:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Or gua sha, which has done... [00:50:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's become an [00:50:10] aesthetic thing- Mm-hmm ... which is great. It's, sure, it increases circulation. But gua sha used clinically, which is a scraping [00:50:15] modality, looks like you've been dragged down the road. Right. And you're not gonna put that on [00:50:20] TikTok. Right. Although some people put it on there, but don't do that- [00:50:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: unless you understand what's going on- Right ... and how your circulation is. And if you're [00:50:25] on blood thinners, you're going to hospital. [00:50:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:50:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: So that's, that's kinda like where [00:50:30] we're at right now with Gen Z. Right. They're incredible, and they're such a smart [00:50:35] generation, and they're turning to all this, but Western medicine isn't serving them. [00:50:39] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:50:40] [00:50:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: Are we ready as integrated practitioners to serve them? We're trying, but there's a time and place that you [00:50:45] need Western medicine. [00:50:46] Dr. Taz: What's your hope for Chinese medicine? [00:50:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: My hope for Chinese medicine is that we're taken more [00:50:50] seriously. [00:50:50] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:50:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? The practitioners are very serious people who are dedicated to [00:50:55] this art, and if we can be part of that resource, [00:51:00] right? [00:51:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, the AMA talked about the physician-led model that they tried to push forward a while ago, that [00:51:05] everyone's under the physician, which is fine. [00:51:07] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:51:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's great. But we're [00:51:10] nowheres in there. We're not part of systems-based medicine. Mm. We're outside of that bell curve. If we could [00:51:15] just come closer to systems-based medicine, I think so many people can be helped. [00:51:19] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's my hope, [00:51:20] is to help our people. [00:51:22] Dr. Taz: I think my goal is to integrate the [00:51:25] methodology and the philosophy into everything that doctors do and the way we see a [00:51:30] patient. [00:51:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:51:30] Dr. Taz: You know, I think it would change so much. It would probably save healthcare costs, honestly. It [00:51:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: would ... [00:51:34] Dr. Taz: because [00:51:35] you are narrowing and you are honing in on what this particular person needs versus [00:51:40] this whole group. [00:51:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: And- Go ahead ... that's the difference right now, though, is just that with healthcare costs is [00:51:45] that insurances are looking at quarterly reports and the money they can save [00:51:50] now and not the money you can save in 10 years. [00:51:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:51:52] Dr. Jordan Barber: So integrated medicine, functional [00:51:55] medicine has always had a loss there, even though- Right [00:51:56] Dr. Jordan Barber: we know even they're cutting GLPs. Right, right. And regardless how you feel about them, we know that they d- [00:51:59] Dr. Taz: [00:52:00] They do something ... [00:52:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: they do a lot of things- Yeah ... as far as long term- Right ... especially in a pa- in the patient population that needs them. [00:52:04] Dr. Taz: [00:52:05] Right. [00:52:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: So cutting out diabetes, cutting out renal disease, lowering cardiac incidents, it's a great thing. [00:52:09] Dr. Taz: [00:52:10] Right. It's huge, yeah. [00:52:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: But they don't wanna pay for that now. Yeah. But they'll pay for all that care later- Yeah ... that's because they're only looking [00:52:15] at the quarterly report. [00:52:15] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:52:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, that's our problem right now. Yeah. [00:52:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. It really is a [00:52:20] problem right now. Yeah. Well, you wrote a book. [00:52:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: I did. [00:52:22] Dr. Taz: Tell us about the book. [00:52:23] Dr. Taz: What, what can we find in [00:52:25] the book? What's going on in there? [00:52:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the book comes out May 19th, uh, and I wrote it with Dr. Peter Caron. Um, [00:52:30] uh, he's within my facility. He's a great person. We, we work side by side. Um, [00:52:35] we wanted a book to give to our patients. Mm-hmm. There was nothing out there, and we got tired of saying [00:52:40] everything. [00:52:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:52:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: Uh, we also wanted the book to give to our students 'cause we were both, uh, former [00:52:45] academics in, in teaching, to help connect the dots 'cause the students are too busy memorizing everything that they [00:52:50] don't know how to connect the dots. [00:52:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:52:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: This isn't the book to explain all the nuances of Chinese medicine. [00:52:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: There's a million books [00:52:55] out there. This is written from the mind of the clinician of how we see. Mm. That's why it's called Thinking in Chinese Medicine. [00:52:59] Dr. Taz: [00:53:00] Mm. [00:53:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: But it's accessible to anyone that's willing to engage with it. Um, it's great [00:53:05] for when we wanted to meet with medical doctors- Yeah ... and say, "This is how we think." [00:53:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:53:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:53:10] There's no woo in here. We're not anti-woo by any means. Right. But it, it makes it [00:53:15] simple, so you can understand it because it's a thought process. And what I didn't realize, [00:53:20] Peter and I talked about after, is that it's so timely because it's the thing that AI can't replace. [00:53:24] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:53:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: AI [00:53:25] can help understand a lot of things. [00:53:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's a great tool, but the nuances that a human [00:53:30] picks up That's the uniqueness- Mm ... of Chinese medicine, [00:53:35] but also the uniqueness of any good medical doctor. So at the end of the day, this is really a book about what good [00:53:40] medicine should be, like you were saying of that integrative model and how to [00:53:45] use it within a larger system to get better outcomes. [00:53:48] Dr. Taz: It's been- That's [00:53:48] Dr. Jordan Barber: what this book is ... [00:53:49] Dr. Taz: it's been a game [00:53:50] changer for, for me personally and for patients in our practices, too, and I know that for sure. [00:53:55] So I feel like it very much needs to be integrated. The philosophy needs to be taught, and then the [00:54:00] integration needs to be taught, too. Mm. How you kind of keep moving back and forth, you know, between those worlds. [00:54:04] Dr. Taz: And I [00:54:05] think for the patients or for our viewers or listeners, you know, what they need to understand is [00:54:10] that Chinese medicine doesn't sit necessarily outside of the medical model. [00:54:15] It can be a part of your overall medical package or medical- Mm ... team, you know? And [00:54:20] hopefully, as we move forward in time and, you know, can, can convince others of the [00:54:25] same, you know, it'll be- it'll become the standard of care. [00:54:27] Dr. Taz: It won't become outside of care. [00:54:30] What's the state of, of research right now when it comes to Chinese medicine? [00:54:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I've published. [00:54:35] Okay. And I have another paper coming out soon, hopefully, if it makes it a peer review. [00:54:38] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:54:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: Not many of us are [00:54:40] publishing. Mm. [00:54:42] Dr. Taz: Um- Do you think that would help? [00:54:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: I don't know, [00:54:45] honestly, because a lot of the research, it's slowly changing, but a lot of research [00:54:50] is therefore Chinese medicine works, therefore acupuncture works. [00:54:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's not mechanism [00:54:55] based, and what the world wants to understand is the mechanism as far as the academic world. Why is it [00:55:00] working? You have proved that if you do this, person has better sleep and have increased REM [00:55:05] state, but why? And there is some research out there, and that's what I'm starting to do. [00:55:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, I have a [00:55:10] paper on low, uh, lower urinary tract syndrome that I'm- Mm-hmm ... hoping coming out. There's purely mechanism based, and it actually [00:55:15] doesn't even talk about Chinese medicine, but it's solely Chinese medicine because it's understanding what's going [00:55:20] on. Mm-hmm. Stimulus and ways of accessing the body and in a cohesive model. [00:55:24] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:55:25] [00:55:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: We're missing that right now because as practitioners, we're not trained to do [00:55:30] research. Right. We're clinicians. [00:55:31] Dr. Taz: I have the same issue, yeah. [00:55:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: And the people who are doing the [00:55:35] research don't have our training, so they're comparing sham versus not. [00:55:40] Right. And that makes no sense- Right. Right ... because you can take cutaneous visceral response, uh, reflex response, [00:55:45] and therefore any stimulus on the body has a, an effect somewhere s- in an organ that's, uh- Yeah [00:55:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: innervated by [00:55:50] that dermatome. So how do you say sham versus [00:55:55] not, right? It's very ... It's, it's just the wrong way of understanding the medicine. Instead, we [00:56:00] should be looking at mechanisms and how to apply those to difficult cases. [00:56:04] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:56:05] [00:56:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there is research. It's improving, but we're not there yet. [00:56:09] Dr. Taz: [00:56:10] Mm. [00:56:10] Dr. Jordan Barber: And that's the problem. [00:56:12] Dr. Taz: So much to do. So what would you tell someone listening or [00:56:15] watching today who's curious about Chinese medicine? Well, [00:56:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: despite all the negative that we just said- [00:56:20] [00:56:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... [00:56:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: Chinese medicine hasn't disappeared for thousands of years, and it's not going anywhere because [00:56:25] it works, right? So that's the first thing I would say. [00:56:28] Dr. Jordan Barber: And if you're interested in Chinese medicine, find a [00:56:30] practitioner, and then have a conversation with them because it has to be the practitioner for you. [00:56:34] Dr. Taz: [00:56:35] Mm. [00:56:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? If they don't seem like they're connecting with you or understanding you, or [00:56:40] you're looking for something specific during your healthcare journey [00:56:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: Like, if you come to me for wellness and [00:56:45] relaxation, I'm the wrong person. [00:56:46] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:56:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: There's nothing relaxing about what I do. [00:56:49] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:56:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: But [00:56:50] if you're coming to get out of pain, I'm the right person for you, providing it's the pain I treat. [00:56:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:56:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:56:55] Right? You have to have those conversations 'cause an acupuncturist doesn't mean anything. [00:56:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: It means they're licensed and trained. [00:57:00] [00:57:00] Dr. Taz: Right. Beyond that- [00:57:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: Full stop. Yeah. Right? That's it. You have to find the person that understands [00:57:05] what you're dealing with and where you are on that journey [00:57:08] Dr. Taz: Such helpful advice. I'm [00:57:10] assuming the books are available everywhere books are sold. [00:57:12] Dr. Jordan Barber: Everywhere [00:57:12] Dr. Taz: books are sold. [00:57:13] Dr. Taz: Are you on all social media? [00:57:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: I [00:57:15] am on, unfortunately, all social media. Um Okay. What's your handle? So it's [00:57:20] jbarberlac. [00:57:20] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:57:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: So LAC stands for licensed acupuncturist. Yep. [00:57:23] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:57:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, I'm [00:57:25] more active on others. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I detest social media, but I [00:57:30] understand its usefulness. Necessary evil. [00:57:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. It's, uh, one of the necessities of our time. [00:57:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because I'm, I, I will doom scroll just like the things that I tell [00:57:35] patients- All of us do ... not to do. All of us do. It's, you know, 10:00 PM, and I'm like, "Oh, no." [00:57:37] Dr. Taz: Why am I here? [00:57:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. [00:57:39] Dr. Taz: All right. [00:57:40] Final question. What makes you Hol? [00:57:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: Ah. So I'm gonna go back to when we talked about the [00:57:45] emperor and stillness. Uh, I am human. [00:57:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: There are many things that are not whole [00:57:50] about me, right? Because I live in New York City. This place is, is crazy. [00:57:54] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:57:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:57:55] Right? I'm born in New York. Um, but I try as much as I can to keep [00:58:00] a still, calm mind and a joyous heart, and I believe [00:58:05] despite all the adversities I've, I've dealt with and continually deal with, those insurance companies, oh my God, [00:58:10] I can go back to that center and everything's okay. [00:58:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: Even [00:58:15] when I'm like, "Hmm, the world might be ending today," everything's gonna be okay. So I [00:58:20] think that's what makes me whole, is that I, I take these principles to heart, and I take that clear [00:58:25] principle of keeping a very still, joyous heart, but not overly joyous, just calm, [00:58:30] and I think that's what makes me whole because everything else, the cheeseburger, all [00:58:35] the examples are really me that I talked about here. [00:58:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So- [00:58:37] Dr. Taz: Got it. Okay ... [00:58:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: you know, I think that's what makes me whole. [00:58:40] [00:58:40] Dr. Taz: Are there practices that you- Do on a repetitive [00:58:45] basis to keep a calm mind and a joyous heart? [00:58:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: They change seasonally and depending on what I'm dealing with. [00:58:50] Mm. Um, so I- Fair ... I've always been an avid meditator, but meditation for me borders into [00:58:55] cultivation and Chinese practices. [00:58:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, but ultimately they're just stillness practices. [00:59:00] Sometimes I do movement-based therapies. We call Dalian, Qigong, Tai Chi- Mm-hmm ... depending. Um, I'm a [00:59:05] former martial artist 'cause- Ah, [00:59:06] Dr. Taz: okay ... [00:59:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: I've broken too much and I, so I'm done. Um, but it [00:59:10] doesn't leave you. So I have a lot of practices like that, but ultimately I like to sit alone [00:59:15] and just enjoy nature. [00:59:16] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:59:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: That by itself is beautiful because the world is [00:59:20] beautiful- [00:59:20] Dr. Taz: Mm ... [00:59:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: if you see it that way. [00:59:22] Dr. Taz: I love it. Well, if you've ever been [00:59:25] curious about Chinese medicine and you'd like to learn more, definitely check out Dr. [00:59:30] Jordan's book, and for all of you watching, remember, we go deep on Chinese [00:59:35] medicine, acupuncture, herbs, all of it, in my private community, which is The [00:59:40] Circle. [00:59:40] Dr. Taz: Please feel free to join us there. It's at Hol+.co/circle. We post new [00:59:45] episodes every week. I wanna see Chinese medicine become the standard of [00:59:50] care in the medical model, meaning integrated into the medical model. Hopefully, we can see [00:59:55] that with the next generation who is so curious about this method of medicine, and it is [01:00:00] not woo, right? [01:00:01] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. It is very practical, very science-oriented, very [01:00:05] nature-oriented, and, you know, it has really been such an important part of my personal [01:00:10] healing journey, which is a part of why I think I'm just so passionate about it. So thank you for joining us today, [01:00:15] and thank you all for watching and listening. [01:00:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: Thank you. [01:00:17] Dr. Taz: Before you go, take a second [01:00:20] to reflect on what stood out for you today. Then, if you can, leave a quick [01:00:25] review wherever you're listening. It really helps other people discover Hol+ and start [01:00:30] their own healing journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at drtazmd. [01:00:35] I love hearing how these episodes are supporting you.