Latest / Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast / Sarah Kroger on Brutal Honesty, Wrestling with Doubt, & Songs of Hope

Transcript

Sarah Kroger on Brutal Honesty, Wrestling with Doubt, & Songs of Hope · Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

• 0:00
  All right, I just hit record and the technology gods are not on our
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  side today, but Sarah Kroger, it's an honor to have you here on the
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  Beyond Sunday podcast.
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  How are you today?
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  I'm doing well.
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  I'm excited to be with you and just, yeah, have a conversation, hang
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  out, drink some coffee, wake up,
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  and hopefully the technology will be with us.
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  hopefully, hopefully.
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  So what coffee you got there?
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  That looks like an iced coffee with a little cream.
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  Wow.
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  my own cold brew this morning.
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  Actually last night because it takes like 24 hours.
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  Yeah.
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  It's super easy.
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  It's not, it's not anything fancy.
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  You just take coffee grounds and shake it in a bottle of water and
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  then you have cold brew the next day.
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  I'm sure there's way fancier coffee people out there who are like, no,
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  you have to do it this way and the temperature of the water has to be so so.
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  But no, I don't, it's just as easy as that.
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  It's super easy.
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  So cold brew.
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  Well, I'm one of those, I guess you could say coffee snobs.
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  And so
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  I
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  appreciate people like you.
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  I do.
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  like, like I do.
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  the, like grind the beans every morning and like do the
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  pour over and I have all the like gear, I don't have
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  expensive gear, but I have a lot
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  I get it.
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  coffee gear
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  and I have, I've struggled with like cold coffee, like cold
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  brew iced coffee.
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  I've just never been able to like fully enjoy it.
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  I just like a
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  hot.
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  Cup of coffee.
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  So, but
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  there something about like the nuance of flavor that you can taste in a hot
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  cup that you can't taste in a cold cup?
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  Is that the thing you think?
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  maybe, maybe maybe it's
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  just the ritual and the routine of it.
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  Like, even if it's like, I live
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  in Orlando and maybe even if it's like
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  Oh, cool.
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  outside, like I'm getting a hot cup of coffee, like I'm just not
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  going to get some cold coffee.
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  It's so weird
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  Yeah.
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  No, I get it.
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  We could go down that rabbit hole.
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  My brother's a real coffee snob as well.
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  And I, I have an appreciation for it.
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  I just don't have time for it in my life, you know, but I'm deeply into
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  sourdough, you know what I mean?
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  Like, so I get, I get the nuances or like the, the, the ability to like really dig
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  into something, you know what I mean?
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  So I
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  that's that's a passion of yours.
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  Like, do you make your own sourdough?
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  Very recent passion, but I am very deeply obsessed like immediately.
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  I've only made three loaves and I love it.
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  I don't know why.
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  I'm gluten free.
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  But I, I found out recently that I can tolerate sourdough, which is
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  a game changer because that means that I can have a simple meal.
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  Sandwich now that doesn't fall apart and is actually like the bread is good
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  for you and it's easier to digest all these things So I started making my
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  own and it is a whole thing There's lots of details lots of different ways
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  to do it But i've learned a lot about about life through making sourdough.
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  I've learned a lot already.
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  So
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  That's incredible.
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  You might have just set some of our listeners free, like,
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  they may be gluten free and maybe they can handle sourdough
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  and they just didn't realize it.
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  Yeah, it's
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  a real
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  consult your doctor.
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  You know, this
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  is not medical advice, but
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  No, no, it's not medical advice, but it's really fascinating.
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  It's just, it's something, there's something about the process it's
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  fermented, so it's like natural and it breaks down the gluten way easier.
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  It also like, it's it's a whole thing.
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  I'm not going to go into it.
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  I'm not a scientist, but go do your own research with it.
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  And it's changed my life truly as a gluten free person.
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  It's changed my life.
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  Oh, I can't
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  imagine.
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  There's just sometimes you just need bread.
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  Like to
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  go like the rest of your
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  Like the real
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  bread is like, man, that's just torture.
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  It's just not
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  right.
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  I agree.
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  I agree wholeheartedly.
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  Truly.
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  I really do.
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  So it's changed my life.
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  Truly.
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  That and then being able to eat it in Italy, which is a whole
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  other, whole other discussion.
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  But yeah, I can eat it in Italy, but I have to go to Italy to eat it.
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  Right.
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  You know, anyways.
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  that we got our best content out of the way, you know, we'll,
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  we'll, we'll dive in I'm excited
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  Coffee and bread.
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  coffee and bread.
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  Right.
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  No, but Sarah, you know, I you Kind of newer to your, to your music and have
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  just been diving in the last couple of weeks, kind of preparing for this
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  conversation and just excited to chat.
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  Like, I'd love to
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  maybe start with, how did you get started as a worship leader?
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  This podcast is kind of for like people in worship ministry and, you
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  know, a little bit of songwriters here and there, people in ministry, but
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  a lot of worship leaders.
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  So how did you get your
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, my parents are both involved in music ministry from before I was born.
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  So music was always a big part of our life.
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  You know, I was forced to be a part of the children's choir church or, you know,
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  take piano lessons and voice lessons and all the things I hated it at the time.
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  But now I'm like, I'm so grateful for that.
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  Because it just built this foundation of a love for, for music and music in
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  the church, specifically in ministry.
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  You know?
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  Kind of like a pastor's kid a little bit.
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  And so, yeah, I just grew up with this love for music, but I was
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  terrified for the longest time to sing in front of people because I was
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  bullied a lot in elementary school.
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  And so I wouldn't have been able to verbalize it like this when I was a kid,
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  but I think it was this gift to me.
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  It was really precious to me.
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  It was music was such a, a special thing.
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  And a vulnerable thing.
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  And so I just kind of built up a wall.
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  So I was like, I don't want anyone else to tear that down.
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  Like they've torn this other side of me down.
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  And so I hit it for the longest time.
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  And then I went on a youth conference when I was a junior in high school,
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  Matt Maher was leading worship.
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  And it was the first time that I experienced contemporary worship.
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  Before that, I was much more, I was raised Catholic.
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  And so much more of, I would say, in a traditional environment.
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  And that was the first time I heard contemporary worship.
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  And it gave language to connect with God in a personal way for
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  the first time ever in my life.
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  I'd never thought about God as like being able to have a relationship with him.
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  And it was really through the music that that taught me how to pray and
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  how to connect for the first time ever.
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  And there was a speaker on that retreat and he was speaking to the whole room,
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  but it felt like this moment where the light was just shining right on me.
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  And he said, if you have a gift from God and you're not using it, you're
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  denying the glory of God within you.
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  and I felt called out and I felt like God was lovingly saying, Sarah, I am,
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  I am asking you to step out in faith.
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  And I went back to my church after that and I started singing
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  and volunteering on Sundays.
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  And I get emotional even talking about it 'cause it was such
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  a defining moment in my life.
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  I was this close to allowing fear.
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  To keep me from becoming who God invited me to be, who God made me to be and
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  stepping into this this life of, of music that I really felt called to.
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  And I was really close to not to not.
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  And so.
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  Yeah, I just started volunteering and slowly but surely gaining confidence
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  with every single time I did it.
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  I mean, in the, in the early days of leading worship, I probably sounded
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  like a dying donkey every single time.
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  Like, just like, ah, you know, I was so terrified.
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  It's not like I said yes and everything was great and everything went away.
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  Still to this day, I get nervous sometimes when I'm on stage, you know, I think
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  that's a good healthy thing, but at the time, you know, it was terrifying and then
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  just slowly but surely gained confidence.
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  And, and now this is what I do full time.
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  I can't imagine doing anything else.
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  It's the love of my life, you know it's what I'm so passionate
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  about besides sourdough.
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  But truly no, like truly like I can't imagine doing anything else.
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  And it's, Yeah, it's just wild to look back on your life and see the ways that
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  God opens the doors and lovingly pushes you beyond what you think you can do.
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  Absolutely.
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  You know, it's funny.
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  I was just having this conversation with my daughter yesterday.
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  Cause I'm I'm leading worship this Sunday.
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  And, and I was like,
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  Ellie, you want to, she's 10.
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  I was like, Ellie, do you want to, do you want to sing with me on Sunday?
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  And she's, she's not really a singer, but I think she could be.
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  but she was like, no.
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  And I was like, why?
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  She's like, I just, I don't like being in front of people is
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  essentially what she said, you know?
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  And, and then I was like, well, Ellie, if, if God called you
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  to sing, would you do it then?
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  And she's like, Probably I probably would if he called me to, you know,
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  so there is something about that.
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  There's something about like, you know, where God sort of has
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  a calling on your life, you know, and not allowing fear of whatever.
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  You know, to, to hold you back from, from fully stepping into that.
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  But I think it oftentimes, like in my case, like it, it takes other people
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  saying, Hey, you can do this, you know?
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  Cause I don't know.
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  I didn't have a lot of belief in myself, but it was people that came
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  around me and said, wow, God's, God's got something on your life.
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  You need to step out there.
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  You need to do
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  this, you know?
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  Exactly.
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  Yeah.
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  That's the power of community.
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  You know, that's the power of other people in your life, encouraging you, even your
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  parents, my parents were like that too.
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  They just would not let me let it go.
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  You know, and I'm, I am grateful for that at the time.
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  I was like, Oh, just stop telling me to sing, you know, like, just stop
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  telling me that I have a good voice.
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  I don't want to hear it.
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  And, you know, but now I'm just grateful that again, that I had people
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  around me that were encouraging me, like you're saying, it's a gift.
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  What did you learn from your parents?
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  I always find that interesting.
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  How, you know, when you have parents that are worship leaders or in some
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  sort of field, and then you find yourself kind of gravitating into a
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  similar space, a different expression maybe, but like doing a similar thing,
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  like what did you learn from them
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  maybe directly or indirectly?
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  That's a great question.
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  I've actually never been asked that question.
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  I try not to just ask the standard questions.
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  Like we're sourdough coffee and
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  Yeah.
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  And parents let's go on the deep end of the pool.
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  No, I, You know, honestly, on a practical level, I think I learned
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  from them that ministry is not perfect.
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  It's messy, and it involves human beings, and it can be easy from the outside
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  to look in and think, Oh, everything, everyone must treat each other so well.
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  with respect all the time.
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  And it must be this golden place to work and just the best situation at all times.
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  And sometimes it really, truly is.
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  I'm not trying to, to downplay that.
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  Sometimes it's a really healthy environment, but sometimes it
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  is a really toxic environment.
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  And so I think I just learned from a very young age to not Put people on a pedestal
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  to recognize that people are human beings to give grace and and also recognize
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  that, yeah, people are imperfect and it kind of like burst that bubble really
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  early, which I think is just helpful.
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  Yeah.
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  To just recognize all of us are human.
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  All of us are bringing baggage and complicated lives into ministry
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  and it's not always perfect.
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  And.
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  Just, just like I'm not perfect, you know, I'm imperfect and I'm
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  bringing my own baggage into it.
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  And just like recognizing we're all broken people and that God uses
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  broken people over and over again.
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  And thank God for that, you know?
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  Yeah, it's, it's definitely.
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  humbled me in that way.
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  And continually in my ministry, just recognizing like, Oh,
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  I actually don't have to be perfect in order to do ministry.
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  I feel like there's this pressure maybe from the outside, or maybe
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  it's just like social media world, just making you feel like you have
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  to be a certain way in order to be in ministry and have all the answers.
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  And it's like, I, I really don't, I'm just trying to be a student.
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  I'm trying to learn every single day.
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  And I think that upbringing really helped me to have that as a foundation
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  for this ministry life, you know?
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  Yeah.
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  It's funny how we, we do place leaders and even artists just on a pedestal.
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  Like maybe, maybe it's just human nature, but I'll never fully understand it.
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  Like, these are just humans, like doing something God's gifted them to do, but
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  we sort of like worship them in a sense.
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  So it must be just it's just in our nature to do that,
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  We got to realize the humanity and people, and even as artists and leaders
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  ourselves, like understand our own, weaknesses and like limitations and
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  not allow it to feed into our, you know, psyche too much, you know, it's
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  just an interesting, interesting thing.
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  How we're wired as, as humans.
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  Yeah, I, I agree with that.
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  I think that's part of, oh man, I don't know if you want to go here,
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  but I think that's part of the problem with where things have been going
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  on a church level these days is like holding leaders on, like putting
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  them on this pedestal and, and like leaders not having accountability.
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  And then it turns into this really toxic thing where we treat them like
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  little gods, you know, and then it just.
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  The higher they get, the, the longer they have to fall and the more impact that has.
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  And it's just, yeah, it's just a problem across the board.
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  And so I, I really am trying at least in my own life to just lead from
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  a place of humility constantly and surrender just recognizing, like,
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  I, I do not have it all together.
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  I am just trying to make it through this life.
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  It's hard and complicated and trying constantly to submit myself to God and
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  recognize, like, Anybody could fall trap to pride and to the ways of the world.
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  Anyone can, any one of us are, we're not immune to that.
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  And we need to constantly, as people in ministry, surrender ourselves
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  and submit our will to his.
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  And I think that's the best place for us to be, you know?
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  Yeah.
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  conversation too with with Pat Barrett like a few weeks ago Just kind of
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  talking about songwriting and it was like sometimes as a songwriter you can try
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  to write something that's gonna resonate with people And totally miss the mark.
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  But when you are just a little bit more like brutally honest about what you're
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  walking through and who you are, like that actually is what resonates with people,
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  you know, it's not sort of this abstract, what does the church want to sing?
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  What, what does my market want to hear?
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  It's like, you know what, let me just be super raw and in that like uncomfortable.
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  Process you find people resonating.
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  Have, has, has that, have you found that to be true for you?
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  Yes, deeply.
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  That's why I'm smiling over here.
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  I'm just shaking my head.
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  Cause I, yes, that is very, very, very true.
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  And in my own songwriting, I've, I've seen that over and over again, that
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  the songs that resonate with people are the ones that I don't necessarily
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  think are going to, or that I'm really uncomfortable with sharing because
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  they're so raw and so honest and come from such a vulnerable place.
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  That I'm like, ah, I don't know that anyone will be able to relate to this.
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  This feels too deeply personal.
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  But that's always the one that breaks through or that someone says to me
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  that really changed my life or that really met me in my darkest moment.
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  And I'm so grateful for that.
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  I'm so grateful for that.
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  Because.
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  I need that too.
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  You know, I need those tools to navigate the darkness just as much as
• 15:19
  the light of this faith journey and this complicated journey that is faith,
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  you know that has good days and bad days and recognizing that as a, as an
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  artist, as a songwriter yeah, it's just helped me to write from that place.
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  And try to be more honest.
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  It's, it's not easy though.
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  It's not, it's not, it's not always the most fun to go there and it's not always
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  the most fun to, to share those things.
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  But I'm grateful for the people who are kind in their response to it.
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  I will say that too.
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  Yeah, well, I think vulnerability, when you're vulnerable, it helps
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  other people be vulnerable.
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  You know, if someone can see, hey, she's not hiding or he's, he's not hiding.
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  Then I can
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  be open about my own struggle or my own pain and not feel like I have to
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  like suppress it or whatever You know, like bring it out into the light and
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  bring it into the presence of God and
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  and Sarah That's what I what I love about You know your music like I don't even
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  know like how you Categorize yourself.
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  We love categories, you know, as, as people, but like
• 16:22
  Yeah.
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  a worship artist or you write worship music,
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  I mean, there's, it's obvious that you have like worship songs and what you do,
• 16:30
  but there's, you've really found a way to balance like kind of raw honesty and, you
• 16:38
  know, just like Worship music and kind of
• 16:41
  those things kind of like working together.
• 16:43
  Like a lot of worship music can sometimes feel a little,
• 16:46
  like just not totally relatable
• 16:49
  or it just doesn't hit people in, in the right season, you know, and
• 16:53
  you've just kind of found this way to almost blend the
• 16:56
  vulnerable singer songwriter
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  world with like church worship and theology.
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  Anyway, I'm just like throwing things out there, but talk about how you
• 17:07
  approach that, like how you think about the music that you make.
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  I love that.
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  I really appreciate your insight and, and like your words with that because that
• 17:16
  really has been kind of my intention is like, you know, I mean, I'm just such a
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  fan of so many different kinds of music.
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  And I listen to so many different kinds of music personally, and I have experienced
• 17:29
  spiritual like moments with all kinds of music that's outside of just like
• 17:34
  church worship music, you know, like that's classified as worship music.
• 17:39
  And I, a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine a couple of years
• 17:42
  ago, kind of challenged me with that.
• 17:44
  He was like, you know, We say worship music, but like worship could be any
• 17:49
  kinds of like any kind of music, you know,
• 17:52
  it's just, if it's leading you, yeah, if it's leading you to the heart of God, to
• 17:55
  the mystery of God, to the wonder of God, to me, it's like, that's, that's, that's
• 18:00
  an act of worship, you know it might not have been the artist's intention for it
• 18:04
  to be worship, you know, like sometimes I listen to a John Mayer song and I'm like,
• 18:07
  I am led to the feet of Jesus right now.
• 18:10
  I don't know why, but I don't know what it is.
• 18:11
  It's like.
• 18:12
  Because God is not bound by our boxes, right?
• 18:16
  Like he's found in beauty and in goodness and in truth ultimately, you know?
• 18:21
  So I find that in all kinds of genres.
• 18:24
  And so when it came to, especially this new record, I was just like, I want to
• 18:28
  make music that I love listening to that I could listen on the background or when
• 18:32
  I'm driving in California down the coast, or you know, I'm originally from Florida.
• 18:37
  So like when I'm in Florida and I'm just driving to the ocean, I want to
• 18:41
  be able Like vibe out to some songs.
• 18:43
  And so my approach with this record was really like, I want some artistic
• 18:48
  sounding songs, and I want some songs that are for the church specifically
• 18:52
  that the church can actually use that, that sound like that.
• 18:56
  And then everything in between.
• 18:57
  And we kind of like kind of threw it all in there.
• 18:59
  And this project is kind of a mix of both of those things.
• 19:03
  Exactly what you were saying, you know because I really am passionate about
• 19:06
  that, that worship doesn't have to be.
• 19:09
  One particular thing and I feel like we've made it one particular thing and
• 19:13
  it just doesn't have to be, you know so I want to continue to challenge that even
• 19:18
  for myself, like what is worship to me?
• 19:21
  It's turning my heart, anything that turns my heart and my eyes and my
• 19:25
  voice towards God and recognizing his again, his beauty, truth and goodness
• 19:29
  at work in the world, you know,
• 19:32
  So let's dive into your influences a little bit.
• 19:34
  I'm curious as to like,
• 19:35
  so maybe twofold question, what's influenced your sound?
• 19:39
  The most from the, sonic quality of your music to even your songwriting,
• 19:45
  like who's been the biggest influence
• 19:47
  or influences.
• 19:48
  And then also as a worship leader, like literal, like corporate worship leading,
• 19:52
  who's kind of influenced you the most in
• 19:55
  both of those worlds.
• 19:57
  Yeah.
• 19:58
  That's a great question.
• 19:59
  I think the sound one most recently I drew a lot of references from
• 20:04
  Maggie Rogers and Kacey Musgraves, specifically both of them.
• 20:08
  I just love how they make soundscapes out of their tracks.
• 20:14
  They just, and that's what I, my goal and dream with this project
• 20:17
  was, cause it's a lot of it has to do with this theme of wonder.
• 20:21
  And I just wanted.
• 20:22
  I wanted it to be encapsulated, like through sound, that idea, that tangible
• 20:27
  feeling of like, just wonder and electricity when you're in beauty,
• 20:30
  when you're in nature to be able to feel that sonically, and they are two
• 20:34
  artists that I feel like just have figured out how to do that sonically.
• 20:37
  So we pulled a lot of references from them and also Sarah McLaughlin.
• 20:41
  And I mean, like Peter Gabriel, I mean, all kinds of different places.
• 20:45
  So that was sonic references and then worship leaders for me.
• 20:49
  I mean, I mean, Pat Barrett is one of them.
• 20:52
  Matt Maher, definitely someone that I've always looked up to and has kind
• 20:57
  of been like a mentor to me slash uncle in the best way, like just such
• 21:02
  a, a champion for me in the past.
• 21:05
  And he produced some, some songs on this record and other worship leaders.
• 21:09
  I mean, I can name so many, I love Bethel, the way that they do their tracks.
• 21:14
  going to say, I hear a lot of
• 21:15
  that for a long
• 21:16
  Amanda
• 21:17
  Amanda
• 21:18
  Yeah, Amanda Cook, Steffany Gretzinger, I mean, all of those.
• 21:22
  Leeland, oh my gosh, Leeland's last record, City of God, is honestly one of
• 21:28
  my favorite records of the last few years.
• 21:30
  I
• 21:30
  hear, did I hear his voice.
• 21:33
  Yes.
• 21:33
  record.
• 21:34
  I was going to say, I
• 21:34
  was listening through it and I'm like, that is Leeland.
• 21:37
  It's just an unmistakable voice.
• 21:40
  it just pierces through that I know it really does honestly, but
• 21:45
  yeah, he's on, he's on a track.
• 21:46
  We wrote a track together and he, he graciously sang on it.
• 21:50
  So yeah, a lot of those people, I would say it's, it's kind of a nice mix of
• 21:55
  all that, a melting pot, if you will.
• 21:56
  Yeah.
• 21:58
  So Sarah, what comes most naturally for you as a, as a songwriter?
• 22:02
  Is it lyrics or is it melody?
• 22:03
  Like what do you have to
• 22:04
  wrestle with more?
• 22:06
  Oh, I have to wrestle with lyrics.
• 22:09
  A lot more than melody.
• 22:10
  I'm hearing melody all day long.
• 22:13
  My voice memos are full of melody little snippets.
• 22:16
  Like, what do you think of this?
• 22:17
  You know, like I'll just sing in my car.
• 22:19
  Most of the time I can't even understand it later because
• 22:21
  I'm like driving in the car.
• 22:22
  It's super loud road noise and I'm just trying to sing into my phone
• 22:26
  just to get something down, but yeah, I'm definitely a melody girl.
• 22:29
  I'm, I'm led by a melody, but I've been honestly, ever since moving to
• 22:33
  Nashville, just really grown a lot in my lyric writing, just being surrounded
• 22:37
  by people who are way better than me.
• 22:40
  That's the beauty and the art of co writing and yeah,
• 22:42
  it's just such a gift truly.
• 22:44
  I don't, I don't think any of my songs would exist without co writing.
• 22:47
  So I'm really grateful for that for sure.
• 22:50
  What's your, what's your, like a typical day, like in terms of, I guess, just
• 22:56
  songwriting, like you get an idea, you sing into your voice memo, then are
• 23:02
  you the kind of person that kind of goes to, you know, a piano or guitar
• 23:07
  or some kind of software instrument and starts producing a track,
• 23:11
  take us into your process.
• 23:12
  Yeah, I, I would love to say that that's what I do, because I want to, I
• 23:17
  actually really want to learn Logic more and learn how to build my demos more.
• 23:22
  I only know how to really do like piano and basic pads on logic right now.
• 23:26
  And then how to do my voice, you know, with reverb.
• 23:29
  But no, I think, you know, I'm a, I'm a slow processor, so I, it
• 23:34
  takes a little bit more time for me.
• 23:36
  If I know that I have a co write on the schedule, for example, I'll go through
• 23:39
  my voice memos, or I'll I really try to read a lot as much as possible because
• 23:45
  I'm trying to just soak up inspiration and just kind of like figure out what I want
• 23:51
  to write about even and what's inspiring me what's what's keeping me up at night
• 23:55
  you know what am I thinking about what am I processing and like I said I'm a
• 23:58
  slow processor so it takes me some time to like really like chew on things and
• 24:03
  even in a co write situation I've learned that I'm I'm even slow in those spaces.
• 24:08
  So the people that I choose to write with, like, I need people who
• 24:12
  are willing to allow space silence and let me percolate a little bit.
• 24:18
  Cause it just, yeah, it just takes me a little bit more time.
• 24:21
  I don't know why.
• 24:21
  It's just the way that my brain is wired.
• 24:23
  I really struggled with that in the beginning.
• 24:25
  I was like, why can't I.
• 24:27
  Think more fast and on my feet, why can't I just have, you know, be flowing
• 24:31
  like everyone else does, who's a lyric writer or a top line writer or whatever.
• 24:34
  But that's just not my gift and that's okay.
• 24:37
  You know I, I find myself drawing from other people's strengths and
• 24:41
  I have other strengths and that's the beauty again of co writing.
• 24:44
  Like you find yourself in a space where you can make something that didn't exist
• 24:49
  before because the three of you came together or the two of you came together.
• 24:52
  And so.
• 24:53
  Yeah, I, I find myself just processing slower and just kind of taking my time
• 24:58
  to prepare for like a co write or, and of course I'll come to my piano and just
• 25:03
  kind of mess with things or mess with lyrics and mumble things or whatever,
• 25:06
  but yeah, that's more of my process.
• 25:08
  It's a slower kind of thing for sure.
• 25:11
  What's the co write that you were like most nervous about?
• 25:14
  Like you saw it on the calendar and you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm so
• 25:17
  nervous to step into the session.
• 25:20
  Oof the one that comes immediately to mind is writing with Leeland and Matt Maher.
• 25:26
  And it's just because they're legends.
• 25:32
  Some of my favorite worship leaders and artists of this
• 25:36
  day and age that we live in.
• 25:38
  And I was just like, what is going to happen here?
• 25:40
  I don't, I don't really know, but honestly, as soon as I, I mean, Matt
• 25:43
  and I've been friends for a while.
• 25:44
  And so that, that wasn't as much of a nervous energy as much as like, but I also
• 25:49
  just deeply respect him as a, as a writer.
• 25:52
  He is such.
• 25:53
  He's like a prophet.
• 25:55
  I mean, he really is as a writer.
• 25:57
  He's so incredible.
• 25:58
  To just watch him and the way that he does it and his process and the
• 26:02
  things he comes up with is just insane.
• 26:04
  I've learned so much from him, but Leeland is kind of the same way.
• 26:07
  And so going in there, I was just like, Oh, how is this going to happen?
• 26:11
  But.
• 26:12
  It was such an awesome, write.
• 26:14
  It was such a great yeah, it was such a great collaboration.
• 26:17
  And we came out with a song that I just I'm so in love with it's called
• 26:21
  giving up it's on the record and it hits you like a freight train.
• 26:25
  And yeah, I just love it.
• 26:27
  And they were so kind and gave me space again to be vulnerable and to process.
• 26:31
  And I'm just really grateful for that.
• 26:33
  So I was nervous going into it, but it ended up being just fine.
• 26:36
  Yeah, that's awesome.
• 26:38
  So you mentioned doing a lot of reading.
• 26:40
  what what are some things that you have been reading books or
• 26:45
  otherwise that you've just drawn inspiration from, you know, say in the
• 26:49
  last year or two?
• 26:51
  Yeah.
• 26:53
  That's a great question.
• 26:54
  I, most recently, and the, I mean, this is just in the last like few months
• 26:59
  the book that has really helped me in this season is a book called The
• 27:04
  Night Is Your Friend by oh my gosh, Alicia Britt Nicole, I want to say.
• 27:10
  So I've been walking through A season of my faith journey that I never
• 27:15
  anticipated and that I've never walked through before, which is just like a
• 27:19
  season of desolation and the desert of really wrestling with some questions
• 27:24
  and my prayer life, like just not working in the way that it used to.
• 27:28
  And I've never, ever struggled with faith before.
• 27:31
  So it was such a, a thing that came out of left field and I just wasn't sure what
• 27:35
  to do with it and it was really difficult.
• 27:37
  And so honestly.
• 27:39
  Over the last year, like it's, I haven't really been reading a ton
• 27:42
  cause I just have needed a break.
• 27:45
  And this book has kind of been the first thing that's broken through and has
• 27:50
  helped me to make sense of what I've been walking through and and just like paint
• 27:55
  a different picture of the fact that like disillusionment and, and doubt and
• 28:00
  specifically Like desolation, periods of desolation are just as much of a gift as
• 28:06
  periods of consolation, and to be able to actually say that without feeling anger
• 28:13
  or bitterness about it is like a recent breakthrough, and actually like a recent
• 28:18
  clearing of the clouds of just, Yeah, despair, honestly, for the last year.
• 28:24
  And I'm really grateful for this book because it's just helping me
• 28:27
  to make sense and to kind of like navigate it and just recognize like,
• 28:33
  okay, I actually think there's a purpose to this and that God uses.
• 28:36
  everything for his glory and ultimately that this season is gonna
• 28:41
  lead to fruit that I would never get to if I had tried to skip over
• 28:45
  it or tried to run away from it.
• 28:47
  So yeah, not to go into the deep end of the pool with that, but
• 28:50
  that's honestly where I've been and this book has really helped me.
• 28:54
  So the night is normal.
• 28:55
  Go check it or the night is your friend.
• 28:56
  Either the night is normal or the night is your friend.
• 28:58
  I can't remember, but,
• 29:00
  um,
• 29:01
  it up.
• 29:01
  We'll find the right title.
• 29:02
  No, that's great.
• 29:03
  check it out for sure.
• 29:04
  The song No Filter, did that song kind of come out of this season?
• 29:12
  Because
• 29:13
  I, I just love that song.
• 29:15
  It is, Well, it's beautiful.
• 29:19
  First off, just everything about it from the arrangement to your vocals,
• 29:24
  but it's also there's a little bit of like you're almost challenging
• 29:28
  God a little bit, like you can feel the tension a little bit, you know,
• 29:32
  like you want me here.
• 29:33
  I am like, no more hiding, you know, no filter, like it's just
• 29:37
  Wow, super raw and some some people are even just not even willing to to
• 29:42
  go there You know, we put on a happy face and just keep going so talk
• 29:47
  about sort of the writing of that song
• 29:49
  Yeah.
• 29:50
  know that season
• 29:52
  Yeah.
• 29:52
  I so appreciate you saying that.
• 29:53
  I really do because when we, you know, we talked about honesty and
• 29:57
  songwriting earlier and vulnerability, and that is definitely the most
• 30:01
  vulnerable song I've ever written.
• 30:03
  And for sure the most vulnerable song I've ever released.
• 30:06
  And it came from for sure this season and, and I even, I hate even
• 30:10
  calling it a season because I don't know how long it's going to last.
• 30:13
  I mean, I don't, I do believe that it is a season though.
• 30:15
  I do believe that there's.
• 30:17
  Always resurrection on the other side of death because
• 30:19
  that's the way that God works.
• 30:21
  So, and I've seen that at work in my life.
• 30:24
  And so in this time of, you know, darkness.
• 30:27
  I have to cling onto that hope and that history that we have and seeing him
• 30:31
  do it over and over again, believing that he's going to do it again.
• 30:34
  But that song, yeah, I wrote it with a dear friend and I told her what
• 30:38
  I had been walking through and she and I just wrote it in 30 minutes.
• 30:42
  It was like a download, you know?
• 30:44
  Cause I think both of us had experienced the same kind of thing and.
• 30:48
  I remember writing it and I wanted to go into the corner and like die, like
• 30:54
  literally just die and or throw up.
• 30:57
  I mean I was just so nervous and so Overcome with like, I can't,
• 31:02
  I can't, this is too personal.
• 31:05
  This is too raw.
• 31:05
  I can't, I can't share this with my label, let alone like release this thing.
• 31:10
  Like this thing is not coming out.
• 31:11
  This song is just for me.
• 31:12
  You know, when you write a song and you're like this, that was just for me.
• 31:15
  It's fine.
• 31:16
  Yeah, that for sure.
• 31:18
  Was how I felt, but.
• 31:19
  As soon as I showed it started showing it to people people were like you
• 31:23
  have to release this song and my label was like that how what do you
• 31:26
  think about that being the first song that you release from this record.
• 31:30
  I was like, ah but I'm so grateful for that.
• 31:32
  Again, I'm grateful for community of people who rallied around it.
• 31:36
  And who said, Sarah, you have to just, you Step out in bravery and
• 31:41
  know that there's other people who are wrestling like you are.
• 31:44
  And that is exactly what has been what's been happening is I was terrified.
• 31:49
  I thought people were going to be like, she's an atheist.
• 31:51
  She's not a believer anymore.
• 31:53
  She, and it's like wrestling with faith does not equal the same thing as.
• 31:59
  literally walking away, you know what I mean?
• 32:01
  Like it's, it's different things.
• 32:03
  And and so that's what this song has led into conversations about is just
• 32:08
  recognizing this as a part of the faith journey and we can't escape it.
• 32:13
  Sometimes it happens when we least expect it and it is okay.
• 32:17
  Like it's okay to wrestle.
• 32:19
  It's okay to say to God, the things that are scaring us deeply
• 32:24
  and terrifying us, those things that we can't say to anybody else.
• 32:28
  He wants us to be brutally honest with him.
• 32:30
  If we can't be brutally honest with God, who the heck can we be honest with?
• 32:33
  Honestly.
• 32:35
  And it's.
• 32:36
  It's one of those things that like wrestling will make you think that
• 32:40
  you have to like stay in isolation.
• 32:41
  I feel like that's a tool of the evil one.
• 32:43
  Stay in isolation.
• 32:44
  Don't say this to anybody.
• 32:45
  Don't reveal this to anybody.
• 32:46
  Like, and then it starts to make you think like you're crazy.
• 32:50
  And and it just starts to spiral in your head and just eats you alive.
• 32:54
  If there's anything I've learned in this season, it's like, God,
• 32:57
  God wants us just as we are in every single aspect of our life.
• 33:02
  He just wants us as we are because it's ultimately good for us.
• 33:06
  To wrestle through these things and to expose our heart to him and and
• 33:09
  to bring our heart to him whether it's broken whether it's He doesn't
• 33:13
  want to our perfected selves.
• 33:14
  We're not perfect.
• 33:16
  We're never going to be perfect He wants to walk with us through the crap
• 33:21
  like through the gunk through the real stuff because that's where the gold
• 33:26
  is Is made, you know, so that's really what this song, where that came to be.
• 33:32
  And I'm, I'm grateful for the reception of it.
• 33:34
  I'm grateful for people bringing their own honesty to it and, and seeing
• 33:38
  themselves reflected in it and recognizing that we're just not, we're not alone.
• 33:42
  You know, if you're wrestling, you're not alone.
• 33:43
  You're not crazy.
• 33:45
  It's all a part of the journey.
• 33:46
  It's normal.
• 33:47
  You know, the night is normal.
• 33:49
  So yeah, that's my hope is that people experience that.
• 33:53
  There's a difference between doubt and deconstruction
• 33:58
  Yeah.
• 33:59
  Deconstruction, these last, you know, five
• 34:01
  years or so, just a huge buzzword.
• 34:03
  And,
• 34:04
  and I get it.
• 34:05
  And I think sometimes people can applaud deconstruction, you know, as honesty.
• 34:09
  And yeah, everybody's kind of on their own journey, but what.
• 34:12
  So the difference I see is with deconstruction is you're
• 34:14
  sort of walking away from God.
• 34:16
  You're sort of removing yourself from the presence of God and like figuring
• 34:19
  things out like outside of that.
• 34:22
  And that can be a very slippery slope, kind of dangerous.
• 34:25
  But doubt is, God, here I am, I'm not going anywhere, but this is the
• 34:30
  reality of my situation and I need you.
• 34:32
  I'm not
• 34:32
  trying to fake anything.
• 34:34
  And it's sort of like a pressing into the presence of God with
• 34:39
  your questions instead of.
• 34:41
  Walking away.
• 34:43
  Yeah.
• 34:44
  Yeah.
• 34:44
  I mean, that's, and that's Kind of what I've been trying to like even
• 34:49
  figure out what it is that I'm walking through because deconstruction is the
• 34:52
  only word we have these days, right?
• 34:55
  But like again, that's why I say desolation and consolation.
• 34:58
  That's been like a spiritual practice even in Catholic spaces for centuries.
• 35:03
  I mean, the saints talk about it, you know, like way back in the day.
• 35:06
  And so it's not like it's a new thing.
• 35:09
  It's just deconstruction is like the buzzword.
• 35:12
  And, and I know there are people out there who have been deeply hurt
• 35:17
  by the church, who feel like that's their only option is to leave.
• 35:21
  And maybe the Lord will bring them back at some point that is their journey.
• 35:24
  But for me, it wasn't deconstruction as much as it was an unraveling
• 35:29
  of like I need to unravel.
• 35:32
  Some bad theology that I have bad practices, bad ways of thinking about God
• 35:38
  that were never him in the first place.
• 35:39
  And that has what this process has allowed me to do is unravel the, the not good
• 35:45
  and the not good ways of thinking about him from the, from the truth, you know?
• 35:51
  And sometimes you need something like this to like, really like sift
• 35:54
  through those parts of your life.
• 35:56
  And actually, if you look at the If you look at the Psalms,
• 35:59
  it's all over the Psalms.
• 36:00
  Like the, yeah, the process unraveling and raveling and just death and
• 36:06
  resurrection over and over again.
• 36:08
  That's just the practice of Christian life.
• 36:10
  And and we somehow forget about it or we just don't like to talk about it.
• 36:14
  Cause it's not, it's not the pretty Jesus is the victor, you know, conversation.
• 36:19
  It's like.
• 36:20
  What about when I can't feel him?
• 36:22
  What about when I can't hear him?
• 36:23
  What about when I feel completely alone?
• 36:26
  Finding faith beyond feelings has been the challenge for me and recognizing
• 36:31
  that faith is not feelings, you know, like it's believing in what you cannot
• 36:36
  see over and over and over again.
• 36:38
  So yeah, it's been a journey.
• 36:41
  And I'm grateful.
• 36:42
  I'm grateful for the ways that the songs on this record have captured that journey.
• 36:46
  And even listening back to it myself, it has been a gift
• 36:50
  to me, listening back to it.
• 36:51
  And, and so it just feels like this thing that's even beyond me.
• 36:54
  And I'm, I'm so grateful for that.
• 36:56
  You know,
• 36:57
  Yeah,
• 36:57
  prayer, prayer doesn't have to be polished.
• 37:00
  I love that you brought up the psalms because it's such a great example of
• 37:05
  You know, I don't remember the last time I prayed a prayer like God
• 37:08
  break the teeth of the wicked, you know, or like, you know what I mean?
• 37:12
  And like, these are like, these are like actual scripture.
• 37:14
  Like if we actually look at the Bible and like
• 37:16
  break it down, there are so many, dare I
• 37:20
  say most of the Bible that we just sort of overlook.
• 37:23
  That's like, that's in the Bible.
• 37:24
  Like, are you serious?
• 37:26
  Cause we, we sort of almost pick and choose like.
• 37:29
  The feel good parts, but there's
• 37:32
  so much there and that speaks to Like god's presence in
• 37:36
  the midst of all of our human
• 37:38
  experience, you know
• 37:40
  Yeah.
• 37:41
  Yeah, I mean, I mean, one, one psalm that I've really, really drawn strength
• 37:46
  from in the last few months has been from Psalm 22, which is the psalm that
• 37:50
  Jesus himself quoted from the cross.
• 37:52
  My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
• 37:54
  Like, That's in the Bible.
• 37:57
  You know what I mean?
• 37:58
  Like that's a prayer and a real moment from a real human being
• 38:03
  saying, this, this prayer, you know, this honest, just, I can't feel you.
• 38:09
  Why have you left me?
• 38:10
  And recognizing like, Oh, you can say the hard things to God.
• 38:15
  You can, and you can still write the rest of the Psalms.
• 38:18
  You know what I mean?
• 38:18
  Like you can still be in the Bible forever and ever, and you could
• 38:21
  still be used by your, your words can still be used by believers.
• 38:26
  Forever, you know, it's just wild.
• 38:28
  It's wild the way that God works and yeah, he truly just desires us.
• 38:33
  Truly.
• 38:34
  If there's anything I've learned, it's that.
• 38:36
  What's was even wild even more wild about that is that comes
• 38:39
  from god himself fully god,
• 38:42
  but yet fully man dealing with Doubt.
• 38:45
  Why have you forsaken me?
• 38:47
  You know, fear.
• 38:49
  That's insane when you actually think about it, you know?
• 38:52
  It's really mind blowing.
• 38:54
  It really mind-blowing emoji, you know?
• 38:57
  All over the place.
• 38:58
  Sarah, what's a, what's a song on this new project?
• 39:02
  That surprised you the most?
• 39:04
  Yeah.
• 39:04
  Oh, well, there's a song.
• 39:07
  It's not on the main record, but it's going to be on the deluxe record.
• 39:10
  That's called galaxies.
• 39:12
  Yeah.
• 39:12
  There's, there's a deluxe record coming right after the record releases.
• 39:16
  Cause I just couldn't whittle down all the songs, but there's a song called galaxies
• 39:20
  and it is, I wrote it with Leslie Jordan.
• 39:23
  And we wrote it like as a worship song, like slow and kind of
• 39:29
  like mellow and contemplative.
• 39:31
  And then it turned into, I can't even describe, it's like this, like California
• 39:37
  windows down you're in a, you're in a convertible, like rolling down the Pacific
• 39:43
  coast highway, just vibing out vibe.
• 39:46
  It is like, Surfer vibes, just the most fun thing to listen to,
• 39:51
  but it's, it's a worship song.
• 39:53
  Like the, the lyrics are about like the, the wonder and the awe of God
• 39:58
  and the holiness, like the bridge is like, holy, holy to the Lord almighty,
• 40:01
  you know, but it is such a vibe.
• 40:03
  So that one, I think just.
• 40:05
  It just surprised me the most because I was really expecting us to just
• 40:08
  go down the worship, the traditional like worship music lane with it.
• 40:13
  What was the catalyst for like changing the vibe?
• 40:16
  Like what happened?
• 40:17
  So I wrote, I, I had that song produced by Cason Cooley, who does a
• 40:22
  lot of needtobreathe's records, Drew Holcomb's records, Ellie Holcomb.
• 40:25
  And then Matt co produced it, Matt Maher.
• 40:28
  And we were just sitting there and kind of like, Matt started playing this guitar
• 40:33
  riff and then we were like, okay, let's like, let's chase that down for a minute.
• 40:37
  And then we started pulling out different references and then it
• 40:39
  just kind of like slowly snowballed.
• 40:42
  And then it became something we were like, This is really cool.
• 40:46
  Let's just go with it, you know, and I, we kind of just went with it and I was
• 40:50
  like, this is, I don't think what the label anticipated, but let's go with
• 40:53
  it, you know, and then we just kind of kept building the track and then we
• 40:57
  showed it to my A& R and he was kind of like, at first, like, I don't know guys.
• 41:02
  I'm not really sure.
• 41:04
  But we just kind of kept like staking our claim in that ground and just
• 41:09
  like, yeah, no, this is the thing.
• 41:10
  This is it.
• 41:11
  We got to go in this direction.
• 41:12
  We got to lean in.
• 41:13
  And we just did.
• 41:14
  And I'm just so grateful that we did because it's like, Such a, yeah, it's
• 41:18
  like that convergence of artistry and worship music at the same time.
• 41:22
  That is that song.
• 41:23
  I'll send it to you or I'll have somebody at the label send
• 41:26
  it to you so you can hear it.
• 41:27
  Cause it's such a, yeah, I can't describe it other than saying it is such a vibe.
• 41:31
  It just really is.
• 41:33
  So I, that one surprised me probably the most.
• 41:35
  that's awesome.
• 41:36
  That's, you know, I think there's, there's so many tensions in this, right?
• 41:41
  Like with worship music, because You can think okay, how do we
• 41:44
  arrange this or record it in a
• 41:46
  way that's just going to be the most corporate, what's going to be
• 41:49
  the easiest for churches to latch
• 41:52
  on to and do.
• 41:53
  And I, and I get that too, but in some ways there's just the, the sort
• 41:57
  of raw, creative freedom that I feel can be just missing sometimes.
• 42:02
  Like, let's just, let's go for this.
• 42:03
  Let's.
• 42:04
  Let's push this beyond, you know, maybe where we thought, you know, are there
• 42:08
  other aspects of, of this collection of songs that you try to kind of
• 42:13
  stretch beyond the boundaries of normal
• 42:17
  worship music?
• 42:19
  Oh yeah, for sure.
• 42:20
  I mean, that's what made it really exciting to make for me is every day
• 42:25
  I would come home from the studio and just be like, I am making the
• 42:28
  music that I love listening to and I'm making it Based on my songs and
• 42:34
  that's just really exciting to me.
• 42:36
  I mean, I think a lot of, especially a lot of music these days, we're,
• 42:39
  we're all borrowing from other sources, other sources of inspiration
• 42:43
  or whatever, whether it's in the writing phase or in the production
• 42:46
  phase or whatever, like there's almost nothing new under the sun, you know?
• 42:50
  So it's all, you know, kind of a compliment to these, Influences
• 42:54
  that I, that I just love that just like make me happy to listen to.
• 42:59
  And so, yeah, I just, I really, really loved making this record.
• 43:04
  I'm really sad that that part of the process is over and I'm really
• 43:08
  excited for people to get to hear that.
• 43:10
  And, and just the sonic landscape that we were able to make and
• 43:13
  weave throughout the whole thing is really exciting to me, you know,
• 43:16
  yeah.
• 43:17
  Well, Sarah, it's
• 43:18
  Oh, yes, it does.
• 43:28
  Yes, it does.
• 43:30
  It does.
• 43:31
  No, it just because I feel like I, I wrote like over 70 songs for this project.
• 43:36
  Maybe that's normal for people.
• 43:37
  It's not normal for me.
• 43:38
  And I'm not ready to, I mean, I'm just starting to have the inklings of like
• 43:43
  ready to start writing again, but.
• 43:46
  I'm not there yet.
• 43:47
  So I'm just allowing myself to just kind of have a little bit of space and enjoy
• 43:52
  the process of sharing this record.
• 43:53
  And then, and then we'll start something new, but.
• 43:56
  Yeah, it's a mental, it's mental gymnastics for sure to
• 44:00
  be like, okay, here we go again.
• 44:02
  Here we go.
• 44:03
  right.
• 44:04
  The work, the work never stops, you
• 44:07
  No, it doesn't.
• 44:08
  Yeah, it doesn't.
• 44:09
  But you know what?
• 44:10
  I'm doing what I always dreamed and always wanted to do.
• 44:15
  Like, how many people can say that?
• 44:17
  So I'm really grateful for that.
• 44:18
  Truly, I really am.
• 44:19
  Yeah.
• 44:21
  Sarah, I want to close with this.
• 44:22
  I want you to encourage the worship leaders, the artists, the
• 44:27
  songwriters who Maybe are feeling like you did when you were younger.
• 44:32
  Maybe they've been put down by people above them.
• 44:35
  They lack confidence.
• 44:37
  they're just not sure.
• 44:38
  Cause I really believe this.
• 44:40
  I, I believe there are so many talented called gifted people that
• 44:46
  are sitting on the sidelines and not
• 44:49
  fully stepping out into what God's called them to do because of fear.
• 44:54
  So I, I don't know, I just want you to maybe leave us with a challenge for
• 44:59
  those that are sort of feeling that maybe a lack of motivation or just,
• 45:03
  just fear that's holding them back.
• 45:05
  What would you say?
• 45:07
  Don't.
• 45:07
  Let it.
• 45:08
  I mean, honestly, I know that's way easier said than done.
• 45:12
  I think, oh man.
• 45:15
  There are so many aspects of my life that I look back on.
• 45:18
  So many seasons.
• 45:20
  I mean, I'm 36 years old.
• 45:21
  I'm not that old, but I have enough of a history now.
• 45:24
  That's the gift of being in your thirties is you have enough of a
• 45:26
  history to look back on and recognize all the places where, at least for me,
• 45:31
  where I allowed fear to keep me on the sidelines over and over and over again,
• 45:37
  and I wonder, I wonder where I would be today if I didn't allow that to happen.
• 45:43
  And you know what?
• 45:45
  I'm, I can't change the past.
• 45:47
  But I can allow it to shape who I am in the future.
• 45:51
  And so I would say for anyone out there who's struggling with that,
• 45:55
  don't, man, don't allow fear.
• 45:57
  Fear is such a lie.
• 45:59
  It's such a lie.
• 46:00
  It is not from God.
• 46:02
  Don't allow fear to keep you from being.
• 46:04
  Becoming and stepping into who God made you to be.
• 46:08
  And you have a piece of God's glory.
• 46:11
  This goes all the way back to the beginning of our conversation.
• 46:13
  You have a piece, I'm convinced of this.
• 46:16
  Everyone has a piece of God's glory that they were made to
• 46:19
  shine in their own unique way.
• 46:21
  And they were made to share with the world in their own unique way.
• 46:23
  You have a piece of God's glory in you that only you can share with the world.
• 46:28
  And so don't let fear keep you from sharing that because it's God's will,
• 46:33
  it's God's will for your life, and you have no idea, you have no idea the, the
• 46:39
  things that he has in store for you.
• 46:41
  So step into it with boldness, with courage, and say yes, every day.
• 46:46
  That's all we have to do, is just say yes every day.
• 46:50
  Start there.
• 46:50
  Yeah, that's so good.
• 46:51
  And I would just add to that break down a big vision into just the next simple step.
• 46:59
  You know, like I remember when, before I started this podcast and I've been
• 47:03
  doing this for almost 11 years now.
• 47:05
  And
• 47:06
  but I was like, okay, what was step one back then?
• 47:09
  It was like Googling how to start a podcast.
• 47:12
  Right.
• 47:12
  And I remember like, I, you know, I, I don't know if I took
• 47:16
  this course or watch this video
• 47:17
  series on like all the details of starting a podcast.
• 47:19
  So I'm just like, okay, I'm going to do it.
• 47:22
  Right.
• 47:22
  And it was just the little bit of action.
• 47:24
  It wasn't this difficult action.
• 47:26
  Like a difficult action is like.
• 47:28
  I'm going to make a record.
• 47:29
  Like if you start with like,
• 47:30
  I'm going to make a record, that's like overwhelming and you probably never
• 47:33
  will.
• 47:34
  But if you're like, I'm going to finish one song,
• 47:37
  yeah,
• 47:37
  that's like doable.
• 47:38
  And then you build confidence as you go.
• 47:40
  And, and so
• 47:42
  for those
• 47:42
  that's
• 47:42
  good.
• 47:43
  just that, what's the next thing that you can do?
• 47:45
  Maybe it's a conversation you need to have.
• 47:47
  Maybe it's like,
• 47:48
  finish that song you started.
• 47:50
  Maybe it's like set up a co write with somebody, whatever it is, just
• 47:54
  start taking little actions and like little actions that build up over time.
• 47:58
  You're, you'll look
• 47:59
  back and be like, wow, I can't believe, like you probably feel
• 48:01
  that like with this project and this deluxe, I didn't even know there was
• 48:05
  a deluxe record coming, but it's like, wow, how did, how did we do that?
• 48:09
  It was like
• 48:10
  just a bunch of action taken, you
• 48:13
  yes, yes, day in day out steps, little steps.
• 48:18
  Yeah, I love that.
• 48:19
  That's great advice.
• 48:20
  I love that so much.
• 48:21
  This has been such a great conversation.
• 48:23
  Seriously, thank you so much for inviting me to come on and
• 48:27
  talk with you and hang out.
• 48:29
  It was really, really good.
• 48:30
  Yeah.
• 48:30
  Well, we appreciate your time, Sarah.
• 48:32
  And I look forward to, you know, just the release of this album.
• 48:36
  So
• 48:36
  make sure you check it out.
• 48:37
  Sarah Kroger, wherever you find good music.
• 48:40
  Are you like.
• 48:42
  Making CDs and cassettes and vinyl and everything?
• 48:45
  Or is this all digital?
• 48:47
  I'm definitely going to make CDs.
• 48:49
  I might make vinyl just because the art for this album is incredible.
• 48:54
  The team that was behind it is just insane.
• 48:56
  So they made some really beautiful things and I just, yeah, I'm, I've never
• 49:01
  done vinyl before but I might for this.
• 49:03
  So we'll see.
• 49:05
  There's something I think you miss in the digital era.
• 49:07
  I'm going to sound super old here, but like I used
• 49:09
  to, I cut my teeth on, not so much vinyl, but just like CDs.
• 49:13
  And I would just listen to like a CD from start to finish.
• 49:15
  I would pull
• 49:16
  out the, the booklet
• 49:18
  and I would study the musicians.
• 49:20
  I would read every lyric and I would just like, And I don't even
• 49:24
  do that anymore.
• 49:25
  Right.
• 49:25
  Because it's like, Oh, Apple music, Spotify.
• 49:27
  Let me just, okay.
• 49:28
  What's the highest, you know, what song has the most listens.
• 49:30
  Let me listen to that.
• 49:31
  You know, it's like, so you miss out, I think on like the
• 49:34
  I know.
• 49:35
  a record.
• 49:37
  I know.
• 49:38
  You really do.
• 49:39
  You really do.
• 49:40
  Well, hopefully people will listen to this record from start to finish.
• 49:42
  I would appreciate
• 49:43
  hopefully.
• 49:44
  Yes.
• 49:45
  Awesome.
• 49:46
  I love it.
• 49:46
  Any last words, Sarah, anything else that you want our listeners to check out?
• 49:50
  Like, are you going to be like doing some touring, anything
• 49:54
  Yeah, definitely.
• 49:55
  Always on the road.
• 49:56
  But you can find all that good stuff on my website.
• 50:00
  Just SarahKroger.
• 50:01
  com and come hang out.
• 50:03
  I'm on Instagram most, mostly.
• 50:05
  That's my kryptonite.
• 50:06
  That's my place where I like to spend my most time.
• 50:09
  And that's just at S Kroger, K R O G E R.
• 50:12
  And yeah, would love to connect with you and hang out and have conversations.
• 50:16
  So come hang out.
• 50:17
  Awesome.
• 50:19
  Yeah.
• 50:19
  you.
• 50:19
  Sarah.
• 50:20
  Appreciate you.
• 50:20
  Have a good one.